Lestat wrote on Oct 11^th, 2008 at 8:21pm:






Lestat,
These are just more fairy stories, and the re-construction of the history of bloody and ruthless ISLAMIC conquest and oppression.

A history where TRUTH is been 're-engineered', to portray the mildness, and benevolence, of the muslim overlords.

i.e.
ISLAM, good.
Everyone else, bad.

This ISLAMIC propaganda is pure made up fantasy.

And, the ISLAMISTS are still constructing these fantasies today......

"The term 'Pallywood' refers to the staging of scenes by Palestinian journalists in order to present the Palestinians as hapless victims of Israeli aggression."

Google,
pallywood propaganda israel palestinian conflict
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=pallywood+propaganda+israel+palestinian+conflict&btnG=Google+Search&meta=



ISLAM / muslims confronted with an inconvenient, and ugly TRUTH about ISLAM, have always manufactured a more pleasant fable, that paints ISLAM in a favourable light.

In situations where anyone who dares to recount the real TRUTH, is murdered.

The consequence of such lies, and repression is that over time, the TRUTH is lost.
.....and the manufactured muslim fable, becomes the 'truth', because it is perpetuated in ISLAM's own accounts and records of events.

Muslims have been doing this for centuries, always re-manufacturing local histories, to show ISLAM in the most favourable light.


+++++++

Here is the account of an inconvenient, and ugly TRUTH, of ISLAM's past......

Morocco -

Jews under muslim protection' in Morocco, 1800's
"......The nearby cemetery contains the tombs of more Jewish saints than any other cemetery in Morocco. One of the more important saints is Lalla Solica, who was killed for refusing to convert to Islam.  This woman was born in Tangier in 1817. At the age of 16, she was courted by a Muslim man, but refused to marry him.  To force her hand, the man went to the caid, the local government official.  The man told the caid that Solica could not refuse his offer of marriage because she was no longer Jewish, having converted to Islam of her own free will. When called before the caid, she refused to acknowledge having converted. The Sultan called her to Fez, where she again denied her conversion.  As a result, she was condemned to death for apostasy and killed in 1834....."
http://rickgold.home.mindspring.com/page17.html


And this very same behaviour is happening still today......


Pakistan - http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021839.php
Pakistan - http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021760.php
Pakistan - http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021731.php

Egypt - http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001302.php
Egypt - http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41805
Egypt - http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=5989

Lestat wrote on Oct 11^th, 2008 at 8:21pm:






Lestat, propagandists and apologists for ISLAM spout this Koran verse....

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256

The darker interpretation on this 'soft' verse, AND AN 'INTERPRETATION' WHICH MANY MILITANT MUSLIMS ACCEPT, IS,
...."You can choose conversion, submission, or death.
.....**NO COMPULSION**! YOU CHOOSE."

EXAMPLE HERE,

Iraq -
4 March 2007
Iraq's Mandaeans 'face extinction'
By Angus Crawford
The Sabian Mandaeans - one of the oldest religious groups in the world - are facing extinction, according to its leaders.
They claim that Islamic extremists in Iraq are trying to wipe them out through forced conversions, rape and murder.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm



AND HERE,

Sudan -
An estimated 2 million Christians have been murdered in the last 20 years, in Sudan [by ISLAMISTS]

2002
"....jihad forces Islam on Christians Women refusing to convert gang-raped, mutilated, says relief worker.
....Backed by Muslim clerics, the National Islamic Front regime in the Arab and Muslim north declared a jihad, or holy war, on the south in 1989. Since 1983, an estimated 2 million people have died from war and related famine. About 4.5 million have become refugees."
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jihad.htm

Google,
2 million christians killed 20 years sudan
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=2+million+christians+killed+20+years+sudan&btnG=Google+Search&meta=



Yet.....
There is no organisation set-up by devout, virtuous, and 'pure' muslims, to prevent these atrocities occurring,
.....atrocities committed by those claiming to be muslims.

And i have not noticed the condemnation of those [claiming to be] muslims [who are committing these acts of violence], from the worldwide muslim community.

Why not?



Because right now again, is the beginning of the 'reconstructed' history of these events is occurring,
....to portray these events as having non-muslim causes.

The ISLAMIC propaganda machine again, is in full swing, to deflect criticism, and to re-attribute blame for such events, to others, to non-muslims.


The only words from the worldwide muslim community on these occurrences, are words about how,
....."These [ppl committing these acts] are not 'true' muslims."
or muslims attempting to curtail criticism with a gag,
....."Shut up. This [TRUTH] is a slander of ISLAM."

as per.....
"Freedom of expression GO TO HELL!" [London]
http://openparachute.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/freedom-of-expression-go-to-hell.jpg



Why is there no condemnation of this evil, by muslims????

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 12^th, 2008 at 4:52pm:



The greed of the Arabs and the thought of the Franks taking their treasure terrorized them. Abd-ar-Rahman in his quest to take land in the name of Islam was killed in action leaving the panicking Muslims, without a leader.

The loss of the leader a power vacuum, consequently starting a miniature civil war over the commanding role, weakening the Muslim army. This in turn led to the defeat of the Muslim army at Tours.

The battle at Tours was the turning point battle of the undeclared war between the Muslims and the Christians.

The fable about the 'recall' is just another example of covering up shame in an honour society, such as tribal Islam. The internal civil wars and feuds in Islam are innumerable. Unity is a dream of every tribal society but it is unachievable while the tribe or the clan trumps all, as in all Arab societies, muslim or not, past and present.

Really Yada...your posts are just incoherent crap and cut & paste jobs from anti-Islamic sites that you have googled. Really....much of it is garbage and you have failed to address any of the points I raised...not one.

For example..when I said the following...

"When the Christians conquered Spain, it marked the beginning of the inquisition, where hundreds of thousands of muslims/jews were given two choices, convert or die. So successful was this genocide that no muslims survived in Spain. "

You responded with this garbage...

"These are just more fairy stories, and the re-construction of the history of bloody and ruthless ISLAMIC conquest and oppression.

A history where TRUTH is been 're-engineered', to portray the mildness, and benevolence, of the muslim overlords."

What are you saying...that the inquisition never occurred. That jews/muslims in Spain were not murdered? And you say the history and 'TRUTH' has been re-engineered.

By whom exactly. Most of history today is written by Western/Christian sources....so who has 're-engineered' this history you speak of...and why, would Christian/Western historians paint Christianity in such a bad light. Really...you do yourself no favours by denying what is considered fact, and using dubious sites to do so.

When I state that Jews lived under Islamic rule and the jews actually describe their time under rule in Al-Andalus Cordoba...you respond with an example of Jewish persecution under Morocan rule in the 1800's no less. Really...is this the best you can do. By then central Islamic rule was long gone and Morocco was ruled by local tribal Sufi leaders. Once again....is this really the best you can do.

You even provided a source describing current day issues in Iraq (the Sabiens)....like really, do you even read your posts?

And this one is my favorite...when I posted this...

"Egypt remained a predominantly Christian country 3 centuries after it was conquered by Amr Ibn Al-Aas. This shows that no one was forced to convert....people were allowed to live in peace, practising their own religon...and they did."

You replied with this...

".....Islam has been waging civilizational war for centuries. Before the Muslims arrived, Egypt and North Africa and the southern coast of the Mediterranean were Christian. There was a Buddhist monastery in Egypt. Turkey was Buddhist and Christian. Persia [now Iran] was Zoroastrian. The Hindu culture covered an area of the world twice as large as it is now. When Napoleon invaded Egypt, he discovered that the Muslim population knew nothing about Egypt before Islam. The 5,000-year-old culture of the Pharaohs had been annihilated.

Really...this is ludicrous. If you knew anything about Ancient Egyptian history you would realise how ludicrous it really is. The end of Ancient Egyptian civilation occurred approx. 1500 years before the Prophet Muhummed (PBUH) was even born. By this time, the language of hyrogliphics had been lost, and Pharionic culture had disapeared, after subsequent invasions and occupations by Assyrian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires. To claim that muslims had 'annihilated' the culture of the Pharoahs is ridiculous.

Besides...you didn't even come close to addressing the issue. That being that 3 centuries after muslims had conquered Egypt....much of the Egyptian population was still Christian. This clearly indicates your delusions that muslims forced others to convert...is just that..delusions.

And when I asked...

"Now I don't expect you to believe me...but unfortunately for you, the evidence is there for all to see. Jews lived in peace under arab rule for hundreds of year, there are thousands of churches which remain in arab lands, after hundreds of years of Islamic rule.
If muslims were as bad as you say, then there would be no Christian churches, no Synagogues, no minority religons surving today in lands ruled by Islam. Alas...the evidence suggests otherwise."

You provide one example...of one church converted into a mosque. No mention of the other thousands of Churches and Synagogues which remained in tact during muslim rule...some which even exist today. For example...St Katherine's monastry in Egypt...and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.

You said something about a bullsh(t metre....yours must be going off its dial...

And please...how bout you actually try addressing my post with your own words...instead of googling any anti-Islamic site you come across, and cut and pasting this rubbish which can quite easily be refuted.

Quote:


Was referring more to Western Europeans (hence the term "The West"), mostly those people of Germanic origin, many of whom were still living in makeshift huts and barely covering themselves with animal skins at the rise of Islam. They most certainly weren't anywhere near the level of civilisation that Islam had reached in this time.

Quote:


I consider Ancient Greek civilisation to be more 'Eastern' than 'Western'. For a start they looked at even the Romans with complete disdain, considering them barbaric and primitive, let alone the Western Europeans. They were more interested in (and focused towards) the East. They expanded their civilisation into the east and south into North Africa, as westerwards towards Europe was just too primitive and foreign for them. They had much more in common with the Middle East and the Persians than they did with the Western Europeans.

It was only about 400-500 years ago that "The West" began claiming some kind of intellectual/cultural descent from the Greek civilisation.

That's Germanic, not German, do you know the diference?

And Muslims, not Islamics... Quite obviously you don't even understand the terminology involved let alone the topics being discussed.

To suggest that historical context is irrelevant, just indicates you have little or any value to add to the discussion. Also why did you not rush in and ask Yadda to stick to only events occuring this year, when they mentioned something that happened hundreds of years ago? Is it only the Islamic side of the debate that's confined to such restraints?

freediver wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 3:12pm:


err, really.

1) Convert

2) Die.

Now my maths might be a bit rusty...but I believe 1+1 = 2. Does it not.

Besides FD, during the inquistion...many chose the latter, and were killed, as a result of there 'choice'.

I hope that clears it up for you.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2008 at 8:23pm:


No...No...strawman!