Australian Politics Forum - No wonder islamics are militant

tallowood

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #30 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:45am

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:40am:

tallowood wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:35am:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:16am:

...
I understand that the hijab/niqab is confronting for a lot of people- but really it comes down to respecting the choice of the individual. if they don't have a problem with wearing it- why does anyone else??
...

So why then Moslem governments don't respect the right of girls to wear bikini where they like?

I couldn't say- I don't speak for Muslim governments. I'm speaking about my personal beliefs. you'd have to ask the government of whichever country you are referring to.

but I always find it amusing when people say things like "well if we were in a muslim country we couldn't wear what we liked, so why should they be able to wear what they want here"

such crazy anti-logic

1) 'we' don't like muslim countries
2) they act in a way we don't like
3) so we should replicate the same behaviour of a country whose behaviour we say is bad

wth!

1), 2), 3) is your logic Nobody else put it here like that
As for right to dress the way they like should it not apply to all irrespectively of religion?

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ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים

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Gaybriel

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #31 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:47am

No, freedom is having a choice.

I know freedom is having a choice (I agree) but I said you see it as signified by certain things

Such as?

muslims?

Who said I have a problem with the hijab?

I assumed from your association of oppression and slavery with the hijab- but I see how I may have misconstrued that as you were maybe just arguing the idea of oppression itself?

Many nudists seem to think so. Luckily for them Australia is fairly tolerant of them.

indeed!

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Gaybriel

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #32 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:50am

tallowood wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:45am:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:40am:

tallowood wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:35am:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:16am:

...
I understand that the hijab/niqab is confronting for a lot of people- but really it comes down to respecting the choice of the individual. if they don't have a problem with wearing it- why does anyone else??
...

So why then Moslem governments don't respect the right of girls to wear bikini where they like?

I couldn't say- I don't speak for Muslim governments. I'm speaking about my personal beliefs. you'd have to ask the government of whichever country you are referring to.

but I always find it amusing when people say things like "well if we were in a muslim country we couldn't wear what we liked, so why should they be able to wear what they want here"

such crazy anti-logic

1) 'we' don't like muslim countries
2) they act in a way we don't like
3) so we should replicate the same behaviour of a country whose behaviour we say is bad

wth!

1), 2), 3) is your logic Nobody else put it here like that
As for right to dress the way they like should it not apply to all irrespectively of religion?

sorry mate- I know noone said that here- I was just going off on a tangent in regards to what I've heard "people" say.

I think people should be able to dress the way they like irrespective of religion yes. but if a religion says that there are certain ways of dress that are recommended then it's up to the individual as to whether they adhere to it.

I know quite a few muslim women who don't wear the hijab- but they're still muslim and are considered by others as such.

I'm not really sure if that answers your question?

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: No wonder islamics are militant Reply #33 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:53am Hi gaybriel. Did malik and abu recruit you from muslimvillage?
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tallowood

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #34 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:00pm

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:50am:

I think people should be able to dress the way they like irrespective of religion yes. but if a religion says that there are certain ways of dress that are recommended then it's up to the individual as to whether they adhere to it.

I know quite a few muslim women who don't wear the hijab- but they're still muslim and are considered by others as such.

I'm not really sure if that answers your question?

Yes, the question was answered and looks like both of us condemned governments who force a dress code on freedom loving girls and boys.

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ישראל חיה ערבים לערבים

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: No wonder islamics are militant Reply #35 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:05pm jordan484 wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:53am: Hi gaybriel. Did malik and abu recruit you from muslimvillage? lol- no they didn't I actually came across this forum myself! it was only once I joined that I realised I knew malik from muslim village! abu- I don't know who he is!
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Gaybriel

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #36 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:06pm

tallowood wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:00pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 11:50am:

I think people should be able to dress the way they like irrespective of religion yes. but if a religion says that there are certain ways of dress that are recommended then it's up to the individual as to whether they adhere to it.

I know quite a few muslim women who don't wear the hijab- but they're still muslim and are considered by others as such.

I'm not really sure if that answers your question?

Yes, the question was answered and looks like both of us condemned governments who force a dress code on freedom loving girls and boys.

yeah I'm not really into governments who force anything on people

it's not my bag baby

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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: No wonder islamics are militant Reply #37 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:06pm He's malik's lap dog.
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Yadda

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #38 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:13pm

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 10:53am:

....if you actually talk to muslim women or wear the hijab or niqab they actually feel it is liberating rather than oppressing. and yes these are women who study at uni, hold jobs and are generally very opinionated and intelligent.

I have seen muslim clerics in the mosque teaching that young girls who resist wearing the Hijib [at 10 yrs old] must be hit.
[YOUTUBE - Dispatches - Undercover Mosque]

Sounds like Pavlov-ian type conditioning to me.

Certainly not freedom of choice.

And if you leave ISLAM?

ISLAM mandates killing apostates.

How does that square with,

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256

++++

Gaybriel you suggested...

see link below:
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...497&CATE=89

An invalid link?

Link will not load for me.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Gaybriel

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #39 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:31pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:13pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 10:53am:

....if you actually talk to muslim women or wear the hijab or niqab they actually feel it is liberating rather than oppressing. and yes these are women who study at uni, hold jobs and are generally very opinionated and intelligent.

I have seen muslim clerics in the mosque teaching that young girls who resist wearing the Hijib [at 10 yrs old] must be hit.
[YOUTUBE - Dispatches - Undercover Mosque]

Sounds like Pavlov-ian type conditioning to me.

Certainly not freedom of choice.

And if you leave ISLAM?

ISLAM mandates killing apostates.

How does that square with,

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256

++++

Gaybriel you suggested...

see link below:
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...497&CATE=89

An invalid link?

Link will not load for me.

no that most certainly isn't freedom of choice and should be condemned! I think you'd find many many muslims who would agree with that!

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1497&CATE=89

sorry- it pasted wrong before- this should work!

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Yadda

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #40 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:59pm

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:31pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:13pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 10:53am:

....if you actually talk to muslim women or wear the hijab or niqab they actually feel it is liberating rather than oppressing. and yes these are women who study at uni, hold jobs and are generally very opinionated and intelligent.

I have seen muslim clerics in the mosque teaching that young girls who resist wearing the Hijib [at 10 yrs old] must be hit.
[YOUTUBE - Dispatches - Undercover Mosque]

Sounds like Pavlov-ian type conditioning to me.

Certainly not freedom of choice.

And if you leave ISLAM?

ISLAM mandates killing apostates.

How does that square with,

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256

no that most certainly isn't freedom of choice and should be condemned! I think you'd find many many muslims who would agree with that!

Could you then, name three Australian muslim clerics, 'who would agree with that' too?

And there lays the problem.
....all muslim clerics know ISLAMIC doctrine very well.

i.e. ISLAMIC doctrine mandates intolerance of the Jahiliyya [un-ISLAMIC] lifestyle [even within non-muslim countries].

"....Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia law, without which Islam cannot exist;"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyya#Jahiliyya_in_contemporary_society

"THE RIGHT TO JUDGE"
"It is not the function of Islam to compromise with the concepts of Jahiliyya which are current in the world **or to co-exist** in the same land together with a jahili system........"
by SAYYID QUTB
http://www.islamworld.net/justice.html

Sayyid Qutb, was a renowned ISLAMIC 'philosopher', who was executed in Egypt [1966] for encouraging an ISLAMIC revolt against the Egyptian govt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #41 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 1:17pm

Yadda,

Quote:

I don't get your point rashid ?

Read it again.. and again, and again, until you get it. I'll give you a tip, resist your obviously overhwelming urge to quote it out of context, especially look at the word "Papuans", it might shed a little light on the meaning.

Quote:

Is your logic, that muslim women do not feel any need to cover their breasts, in contrast to Christian women?

Muslim women cover more than just breasts, so that's obviously not a logical conclusion is it... So don't just read my statement in context, read it with a hint of logic too.

tallowood,

Quote:

So why then Moslem governments don't respect the right of girls to wear bikini where they like?

Firstly, which Muslim governments? If you have a particular country in mind, then mention it, cos the majority of 'Muslim governments' [sadly] do permit wearing of bikinis, there's very few that don't.

Secondly, why do Western governments not respect the right of girls to wear absolutely nothing wherever they like?

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Gaybriel

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #42 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 1:27pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:59pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:31pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 12:13pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 10:53am:

....if you actually talk to muslim women or wear the hijab or niqab they actually feel it is liberating rather than oppressing. and yes these are women who study at uni, hold jobs and are generally very opinionated and intelligent.

I have seen muslim clerics in the mosque teaching that young girls who resist wearing the Hijib [at 10 yrs old] must be hit.
[YOUTUBE - Dispatches - Undercover Mosque]

Sounds like Pavlov-ian type conditioning to me.

Certainly not freedom of choice.

And if you leave ISLAM?

ISLAM mandates killing apostates.

How does that square with,

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.256

no that most certainly isn't freedom of choice and should be condemned! I think you'd find many many muslims who would agree with that!

Could you then, name three Australian muslim clerics, 'who would agree with that' too?

And there lays the problem.
....all muslim clerics know ISLAMIC doctrine very well.

i.e. ISLAMIC doctrine mandates intolerance of the Jahiliyya [un-ISLAMIC] lifestyle [even within non-muslim countries].

"....Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia law, without which Islam cannot exist;"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyya#Jahiliyya_in_contemporary_society

"THE RIGHT TO JUDGE"
"It is not the function of Islam to compromise with the concepts of Jahiliyya which are current in the world **or to co-exist** in the same land together with a jahili system........"
by SAYYID QUTB
http://www.islamworld.net/justice.html

Sayyid Qutb, was a renowned ISLAMIC 'philosopher', who was executed in Egypt [1966] for encouraging an ISLAMIC revolt against the Egyptian govt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism

I don't have enough knowledge of muslim clerics for that. I could tell of you many muslim people who would have a major problem with 10 year olds getting hit for not wanting to wear hijab.

If i happen to talkto a muslim cleric about this particular issue then I'll let you know

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49841 At my desk.	Re: No wonder islamics are militant Reply #43 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 2:04pm Welcome to OzPolitic Yadda.
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Yadda

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Re: No wonder islamics are militant
Reply #44 - Oct 10^th, 2008 at 2:40pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 1:17pm:

tallowood,

Quote:

So why then Moslem governments don't respect the right of girls to wear bikini where they like?

Firstly, which Muslim governments? If you have a particular country in mind, then mention it, cos the majority of 'Muslim governments' [sadly] do permit wearing of bikinis, there's very few that don't.

Malaysia, where it is an offence for unmarried ppl to hold hands in public places.

Google,
malaysia protests bikini islam
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=malaysia+protests+bikini+islam&btnG=Search&meta=

If you say Malaysia is not a muslim state,
....then when was the last bikini pageant held in Saudi Arabia or Iran?

Or when was the last time a woman was allowed to walk in a public place without a burka, or hijib [in Iran]?

If you say Saudi Arabia or Iran are not a muslim states, where

is

the ISLAMIC paradise on earth, precisely?

Quote:

Secondly, why do Western governments not respect the right of girls to wear absolutely nothing wherever they like?

That is like asking....
....Why does the Iraqi government not respect the right of ppl to walk around in public wearing 'suicide vests'?

In dress codes, non-muslim communities have decide to make laws which say you shall not offend your immediate neighbour.
.....But how do we, as a society, decide what is offensive, and what is not?
.....We elect ppl to make those laws / determinations on our behalf.
.....And we ['the people'] elect ppl who hopefully closely reflect our own tolerance / intolerance / views [otherwise we would elect a different person, next election time].
.....Then as a society, for the sake of peace, and social stability, we all agree to observe the 'common law', which has been commonly agreed upon.
.....[and 'transgressors' are prosecuted.]

Whereas,
Muslim communities are today, bounded by laws drawn up in the 7th century, when seeking tribute and war booty from declared 'enemies', and killing ppl who offended your god, and marrying pre-pubescent girls, and kissing black rocks as an reverence to your god, were all common practices.
ISLAMIC doctrine insists that where non-muslim law does not coincide with ISLAMIC law, the 'struggle' must continue, until non-muslim laws are replaced by Sharia law.

ISLAM is intolerant of all un-ISLAMIC influences / all un-ISLAMIC authority / all un-ISLAMIC laws.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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