I actually agree that a lack of criticism from within the muslim community could creates such ideas that all muslims are in support of certain things.

if supporting your brother means stopping him from being an opressor- couldn't constructive criticism also be a way of supporting your brother/sister?

I understand what you mean about innocent before proven guilty and I think it's a good thing- to think the best of others rather than assuming the worst. because this does not put the critical function on hold, it just tries to stop people from jumping to conclusions- I can also see how it would decrease rumor spreading, backbiting etc

but I think if something is proven- then constructive criticism etc can be a good thing- not to tear someone down but to 1) point out the fault in that person's actions and attitudes so that others do not mimic them thinking they are acceptable

and 2) so that those who aren't muslim, looking in from 'outside' can understand what is accepted and what is not, what is considered good and what is considered bad.

or even- when discussing smething with non-muslims- if the charges/accusations remain unclear but NM's still want to know what the islamic stance on it is- surely there is no harm in abstracting it into the hypothetical and addressing it in that way?

It seems to come down to playing a lot of semantics. Islamic leaders (or whatever you wish to call them) say things like "Islam does not allow the killing of innocent people", but do not elaborate to state that non-muslims are actually not innocent. There's a hell of a lot of smoke and mirrors, straight answers are rare and muslims can hardly blame "the west" for questioning and criticising Islam when it's so very difficult to get any straight and real answers.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 11:11am:


I actually believe you are serious. Thank you, this statement clarifies the agenda that underlies all that you say and have said. Since it is an agenda based on a belief in the perfection and blind protection of your own system and your choice to speak politically rather than honestly, I will be able to judge your words better.

Whatever unjust criticism is directed at your faith I am happy if and when it is shown to be just that. To state that your faith and its followers are above criticism though is very telling indeed. That you believe this contradicts ideas of mutual tolerence and understanding.

Maybe you could refrain from your own criticisms of the West because as you say Quote:
we are already doing it, at academic and grassroots levels. I am not pretending when I make criticisms about my government, culture or country. The aim IS to make it better. It is a difficult task because of the heights of perverse power and wealth that are achievable in the West.

I have come to the conclusion that the statement that you are part of a perfect system is by necessity an extreme position. Maybe you are are correct that the West must withdraw from Middle East/Islamic affairs and maybe equally the West should shut the doors on the further migration of Muslims to the Western nations. Leaving us all to our own fates.

Congratulations, you have thrown off the mask of moderation and revealled a heartfelt, genuine yet I believe flawed intent behind all of your criticisms and defences. I will try to make any future questions I may have for you about the mechanics of your religion. I realise that all political questions will by default recieve a pro-muslim reply.

locutius - it is quite likely (100 %) that abus comments on his religion would be strongly biased as well.

Oh, did I say only 100 % !!

freediver wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 1:27pm:







freediver,

On, the criticism, and self-criticism, of ISLAM......

The Koran states...... that Mohammed is a wonderful example for all muslims to follow.
.....[that fact that Mohammed himself received this 'revelation' from Allah, about his own virtue, is worth considering]


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.021





And today, muslims are encouraged to emulate Mohammed's life values and actions.

Yet, the reality is, that Mohammed was a ruthless, **deceptive**, 7th century warlord, a slave-trader, a mass murderer, a man who readily assassinated several of his critics.

Example....
Deception, the assassination of a critic, Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf....

In this Hadith, Muhammad himself sets the example, for the use of deception against Allah's enemies,

"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who *has hurt Allah* and His Apostle?"....."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.0...

This was a straight out *political* assassination!

We could also ask, how could a mere man, Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf [as stated in the Hadith], have *hurt* Allah, who is an all powerful god?

Well, isn't Allah all powerful?

Or is ISLAM just a mafia gang of malcontent's, who hate their critics - to death ?





And it seems many, many, muslims in the world today, would willingly follow Mohammed's example - of murdering [ISLAM's] critics....



London cartoon protests....



Teaching muslim children, ISLAMIC values [London],

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 3:30pm:


That is very good Soren. I like it. Any objection to me using it as my signature.

Quote:


Hizb ut-Tahrir are a purely political group that reject using violence to establish/revive Islam. Aren't they the type of groups you believe Islam needs? Admittedly they don't reject 90% of Islam and open their arms wide to secularism... but if you really think you're going to find an Islamic movement of any notable calibre doing that, you're deluded.

Personally I think the West's opposition to Hizb ut-Tahrir, and in some cases even suppressing and banning them just indicates how intellectually bankrupt the West has become. It's a fact that if you ban genuine political-only parties like them, then some frustrated Muslims may end up affiliating with less political-only groups... Or is that what you actually want? in order to validate your claims that Islam is purely violent and isn't interested in peaceful dialogue and co-existence? Like the fundamentalist Christians, you think you can "bring on armageddon"?