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Clean coal is not viable (Read 6221 times)
mantra
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Clean coal is not viable
Sep 26th, 2008 at 8:44am
 
The government is going to prop up the coal industry even further.  It was bad enough when Howard pledged $400 million to them a year or so ago - now Rudd's throwing another $100 million at this lucrative  industry.  Climate change critics should be pleased that our PM is putting big business before decent investment in clean alternative energy.

According to critics there is no such thing as clean coal - all they can do is convert it to gas and store it - who knows where.

Quote:
KEVIN Rudd has split green groups by placing new emphasis on clean coal technology to combat climate change, telling the UN its development has to be at the "forefront of the agenda" to cut global carbon pollution from power stations and not destroy the coal industry.

In a move that will avoid strife with the powerful Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union, but stir growing divisions in the environmental movement, the Prime Minister has joined former US president Bill Clinton to refocus attention on how best to capture and store carbon emissions to reduce global greenhouse gases.

Mr Rudd has also moved to reassure Australian industry he wants to protect exports and development at a time of international financial crisis.

"If you look at global electricty generation into the future, it follows that after about 2050, we can still see the global economy dependent 40 per cent-plus on coal-fired electricity generation," Mr Rudd said in New York.

Mr Clinton has agreed through the William J.Clinton Foundation to collaborate to "deploy carbon capture and storage technology to large-scale projects", encourage large-scale solar power generation in Australia and improve energy efficiency in large cities.


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24404241-601,00.html


Governments know that coal will never be clean but are beholden to big business at any cost.

Quote:
There is no such thing as clean coal," says James Hansen, NASA's expert on global warming, who says all coal plants, even TECO's, still emit millions of tons of carbon dioxide - the most threatening greenhouse gas.

"There is no coal plant that captures the carbon dioxide and that's the major long-term pollutant," says Hansen.

But if carbon dioxide pollution is the problem with clean coal, many scientists believe there is a solution. They believe it's possible to recover most of the carbon dioxide and store it underground.

The idea is called "capture and sequester," and a global race is on to learn how it should be done. One Norwegian firm is storing tons of carbon dioxide in rock caves beneath the North Sea. America's efforts to sequester carbon have stalled. The Department of Energy planned to fund a plant, but pulled all funding when the price grew too high.

"They took seven years just to decide where they were going to make a pilot plant - and then they decided to cancel it," says Hansen.

And now, the failure to solve the carbon dioxide problem is a threat to coal itself. In the last five years, at least 63 coal-fired power plants have been scrapped or defeated by public opposition.

Florida Governor Charlie Crist helped pull the plug on the two clean coal plants because he says without a carbon solution, clean coal is not an option.

"Until that time comes, we want to develop more solar, more nuclear, more wind," says Crist.

Which is why the industry needs an ad campaign. Until the federal government funds the research on carbon dioxide, America's reliance on coal is in long-term trouble.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/20/eveningnews/main4199506.shtml
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athiest
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #1 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 9:27am
 
Yea, I;ve never really got the "clean " coal bit,
Does it look like coal?
Does it smell like coal?
Does it burn like coal?

ITS COAL.
So in the last year our govs on both sides of politics have put 500 million into a product that has proved to be dirty power,I wonder how much "clean"power 500 million would buy?
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #2 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 10:39am
 
athiest - I'm completely with you on that one.

Clean coal ?? it is black to begin with !!
It is a concentrated store of carbon from the atmosphere.

Burn it and release the carbon within.


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JC Denton
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #3 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 3:08pm
 
Quote:
Yea, I;ve never really got the "clean " coal bit,
Does it look like coal?
Does it smell like coal?
Does it burn like coal?

ITS COAL.
So in the last year our govs on both sides of politics have put 500 million into a product that has proved to be dirty power,I wonder how much "clean"power 500 million would buy?


...

But seriously, there's absolutely no reason (other than the irrational bitching of uniformed environmentalists) why Australia hasn't gone nuclear yet. Why the bugger are we bothering with all these lame solutions when we're sitting on the largest reserves of uranium on the planet?
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athiest
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #4 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 4:11pm
 
JC Denton wrote on Sep 26th, 2008 at 3:08pm:
Quote:
Yea, I;ve never really got the "clean " coal bit,
Does it look like coal?
Does it smell like coal?
Does it burn like coal?

ITS COAL.
So in the last year our govs on both sides of politics have put 500 million into a product that has proved to be dirty power,I wonder how much "clean"power 500 million would buy?


http://www.dorkinglitho.co.uk/Imgs/PinWheel1.jpg

But seriously, there's absolutely no reason (other than the irrational bitching of uniformed environmentalists) why Australia hasn't gone nuclear yet. Why the bugger are we bothering with all these lame solutions when we're sitting on the largest reserves of uranium on the planet?

How do we pay for it?
How much would that cost?
How long would it take to build?
Where would YOU put them?
What do we do in the mean time?
Dont we have better options available now?
There, I havn't even mentioned the enviroment.
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pjb05
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #5 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 6:45pm
 
[quote author=EmpNap link=1222382664/0#3 date=1222405711
But seriously, there's absolutely no reason (other than the irrational bitching of uniformed environmentalists) why Australia hasn't gone nuclear yet. Why the bugger are we bothering with all these lame solutions when we're sitting on the largest reserves of uranium on the planet? [/quote]

But that won't do sufficient damage to capitalism to make the lefty-greens happy. 
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mantra
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #6 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 9:04pm
 
Some of you proponents of nuclear power have no idea how dangerous and expensive creating a NP station is - from the mining, developing, processing, building and establishing power stations which always run over budget by billions of dollars.  There is the most important matter of disposing of the radioactive waste where no safe repository has yet been designed and who's going to be around to look after this waste in 100, 200 or 50,000 years time.

The lifespan of a NP plant is 40 years and once it's packed up - it costs billions to deconstruct it and dispose of it.  There is also the cleaning up of the tailings from the mines once they're depleted.  This is never never succcessful and the toxins always unavoidably leak into our underground water systems.  A huge percentage of uranium miners also have serious lung diseases and there is a high incidence of cancer amongst them.

Until a NP plant is established - it uses obscene amounts of fossil fuel energy which no-one ever considers and the depleted uranium is often used for nuclear weapons.  NP plants are also susceptible to terrorist attacks, not to mention horrific accidents which are still occurring regularly regardless of how many modern "safety" measures are put in place.

Only the ignorant believe the spiel spruiked by the pro nuclear lobby who know it isn't a viable industry, and need billions in government funding to prop it up.  

It is also estimated that we only have another 30-60 years of uranium left depending on the demand.

It's a crock.

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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #7 - Sep 26th, 2008 at 9:48pm
 
mantra - i agree entirely.
it is almost a crime to consider anything but renewable energy in this age.
The energy used to produce clean nuclear energy is enormous.

imagine if a serious push had been made for renewable energy 20 years ago in Aussie.
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mozzaok
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #8 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 10:38am
 
Spot on Mantra, there is no reason for australia to go nuclear, it is the dumbest choice possible.

When cretins still harp on about how being environmentally responsible is bad for the economy, I have to laugh, obviously unregulated greed, corporate unaccountability, and government waste is economically viable.
What a bunch of maroons.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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muso
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #9 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 4:34pm
 
There is one major  factor in its favour. Develop a technology for carbon capture and sequestration that works, and you can use it on biomass power generation. That way you actually extract CO2 from the atmosphere.

Potentially it can work. The CO2 if buried in the right places can ultimately form carbonate rocks.

Let's not be too fast to condemn anything that gives us a chance. Let's avoid language like 'cretins' and 'we should only consider renewable energy'. It's a question of environmental accounting. Anything that improves the bottom line (in terms of carbon footprint) is worth considering.

We need to re-examine our paradigms, especially when we live in a time of huge economic bailouts.

We have an imminent environmental crisis just as serious. We need to use all means at our disposal - not just one or two.
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« Last Edit: Sep 27th, 2008 at 4:40pm by muso »  

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pjb05
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #10 - Sep 27th, 2008 at 6:05pm
 
Yes if you listen to environmentalists then clean coal will never work and nuclear power will always be too expensive and dangerous. On the other hand renewables will improve in leaps and bounds.

The fact is switching to renewables is asking to put an energy hungry world on a energy crash diet.
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athiest
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #11 - Sep 28th, 2008 at 11:47am
 
pjb05 wrote on Sep 27th, 2008 at 6:05pm:
Yes if you listen to environmentalists then clean coal will never work and nuclear power will always be too expensive and dangerous. On the other hand renewables will improve in leaps and bounds.

The fact is switching to renewables is asking to put an energy hungry world on a energy crash diet.


Why?
I can only assume you nothing of renewable energy to make such a dumb statement.
Rather than read the personal opinions of climate change sceptics get out there and get educated on the subject,.YOU will be surprised at how easy it would be for all of us to live on renewable energy.
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pjb05
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #12 - Sep 28th, 2008 at 2:25pm
 
[quote author=athiest link=1222382664/0#11 date=1222566431
Why?
I can only assume you nothing of renewable energy to make such a dumb statement.
Rather than read the personal opinions of climate change sceptics get out there and get educated on the subject,.YOU will be surprised at how easy it would be for all of us to live on renewable energy. [/quote]

Then why don't you surprise me? Renewables need massive back up (about 90%) from baseload sources for electricity generation.  And what about transport? Planes, ships cars and trucks need liquid fuel. You need energy to grow the economy. You need 3% economic growth each year to keep unemployment in check. Anything we do here in Australia will be insignificant compared to the rapid growth going on in the developing world (esp India and China).

PS, all this has nothing to do with climate change skepticism.
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skippy
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #13 - Sep 28th, 2008 at 2:45pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Sep 28th, 2008 at 2:25pm:
[quote author=athiest link=1222382664/0#11 date=1222566431
Why?
I can only assume you nothing of renewable energy to make such a dumb statement.
Rather than read the personal opinions of climate change sceptics get out there and get educated on the subject,.YOU will be surprised at how easy it would be for all of us to live on renewable energy.


Then why don't you surprise me? Renewables need massive back up (about 90%) from baseload sources for electricity generation.  And what about transport? Planes, ships cars and trucks need liquid fuel. You need energy to grow the economy. You need 3% economic growth each year to keep unemployment in check. Anything we do here in Australia will be insignificant compared to the rapid growth going on in the developing world (esp India and China).

PS, all this has nothing to do with climate change skepticism.
[/quote]

I dont know where you are getting your info from but it isn't just wrong its total lies.
Renewables need a 90% "back up" , really?
I live on renewable energy, I have NO back up,let alone 90%.

What makes you think you can grow the economy with nuke energy but not with renewable?

As for China and India,
China has embrased alternate energy better than Australia and have in use many different forms of power production than just coal.
They also have hydro plants that make the snowy mountain scheme look like a fish pond.
India has many villages that run on solar, its good to see these two large nations understand the importance of renewable energy, pity Australia are so far behind in their thinking.
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muso
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Re: Clean coal is not viable
Reply #14 - Sep 28th, 2008 at 3:33pm
 
Quote:
Why?
I can only assume you nothing of renewable energy to make such a dumb statement.
Rather than read the personal opinions of climate change sceptics get out there and get educated on the subject,.YOU will be surprised at how easy it would be for all of us to live on renewable energy.


Of course we can live on renewable energy, but in response to your other post, China and India have not exactly embraced clean energy technology yet. There is a site (which I'll attempt to Google) that gives a breakdown. China is slightly behind Australia in terms of total renewables, but way behind in terms of percentage of total  power generation (by a factor of 10). The biggest producer of clean energy is by far the USA (About twice that of Australia by percentage of total generation, and by a factor of about 30 on total renewable power generated).

Here it is :

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/electricitygeneration.html

You can download spreadsheets on electricity generation and a breakdown of conventional and renewable generation.

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« Last Edit: Sep 28th, 2008 at 3:53pm by muso »  

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