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You seem to forget soren, I have seen both sides of the coin (from the inside). I've seen how Western society treats and views women (the reality, not the politically correct 'ideal') and I've seen how Muslims and Islam treats women.

The Western reality is truly despicable, and you know it. You can't hide from the reality that you know inside yourself. If you've ever been a member of a local footy club, or at a boy's night out or BBQ, you know the kind of conversations that go on, and the really despicable way in which Western society looks at women. They are just considered to be two legs carrying around a sperm-deposit box, and the actual descriptions men in this society use are actually far more graphic and obscene (I'm toning it down, because I can't bring myself to repeat the absolute filth I've heard come out of some people's mouths). That's why jenny Brockie has episodes of Insight about it, that's why High schools have special parts in their curriculums about it. because everyone knows that men in Western societies, in Australia in particular have a very sick and twisted view of women, especially amongst football players, which is a large proportion of the populace. They objectify them to the extreme, and consider them to be nothing more than sexual 'amenities'. This is not the case for all Australians, and I apologise in advance to any decent minded Aussie out there who has the sense not to be part of this deeply ingrained aspect of Australian culture. And Lestat has already detailed the view of mainstream media and it's treatment of women as nothing more than a commodity that can sell anything the male gender happens to need (or not even need) to purchase, by appealing to his base desires and luring him through the misuse of her body.

Islam on the other hand, takes every measure possible to ensure that women are protected and are seen for themselves and their intellect and their personality. This is why women dress in a most modest manner, in order to dispel right from the outset that her position in society is based on her appearance or her sexuality. Now that doesn't mean abuse of women in Muslim societies doesn't occur, it does, domestic abuse occurs, discrimination occurs, but they occur in all societies (no, Western society hasn't stamped them out), but society's view of women is as a protected and sacred part of it's own soul. The woman is someone's mother, she is someone's sister, she is someone's daughter, perhaps someones grandmother or loved and respected aunty. How can it be befitting to treat her like she is a 'walking orifice' that you wanna have your wicked way with? Islam sees her as a person, as a soul, as a mind, not just a body that can be utilised for men's own desires or to sell products.This is how Islam views the woman, and this is the epitome of respect if you ask me. Personally I recognised this even before becoming a Muslim, and it's something I found deeply beautiful and touching about Islamic society and culture is that women were so highly regarded and respected, as human beings, not as sexual 'amenities'.

Lestat, you're the really smart one, you keep telling me, so, please, tell me the psychological term for what someone is doing when they are claiming that people think x way because 'everyone' does? It's something to do with projecting their own thoughts on to others because they have extremely limited insight and don't want to believe there is something wrong (according to their personal beliefs) with them and that everyone must be like this.

Lestat, I can tell you, with 100% honesty, that I have been to the beach and admired the girls and never once lusted (got aroused) by any of them. I'm not as primitive as you are, and don't think like you do, and do not see every woman as a sexual opportunity.

I wouldn't immediately assume you are the same as me, so why do you assume every male is the same as you?

I still think for the safety of the community you need a castration.

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Well somebody's certainly enjoying the hot day at the beach, and I think it's more than just the bikini-clad girl. Just be honest and admit it, you like women walking around half naked, because it is sexually arousing. It's got nothing to do with some noble idea of furthering their personal freedoms, it's good for you as a male. You forget easel, we are males also, we know exactly how you're thinking. We might have the good sense and faith to limit our urges to that which is halal (islamically permissible) but we're still men nonetheless. So don't give us all this noble idealistic garbage. Just be honest for once.

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Look either you're a normal male like us, or you're a eunuch... in which case I'd admit you are just trying to advance women's genuine rights to spill their curves all over the place.  

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:01pm:


Easel...believe it or not I have not always been a practising muslim. I've played for footy clubs, nearly all my mates are non-muslims....and the majority of my female friends are non-muslims. I've spent most of my life living an Australian life, and even though I always believed, thanks be to Allah, have only truly embrased and practised my religon in the past 5 years.

And yes...that 'Australian' life came with all those things that you would see as 'normal'....so I have seen how Australian men view woman...and have seen how woman struggle to fit in..to be accepted by these 'men'. I've seen how woman starve themselves, in order to have the 'body' expected of them. I've seen how woman go through torture to ensure there's no hair in the wrong places, so that they are more asthetically pleasing to the guys. I've been out with girls who on nights that were absolutely freezing...wearing short mini's, teeth shattering in the cold. I've even had a female friend who sadly suffered from bulemia cause her tosser boyfriend used to call her fat, and for reasons I never understood she was infatuated by him.

And probably the most saddest thing yet all to common, is the number of woman I have known and met who had such a low self esteem that they felt the only way they could be accepted was to look good.

You say I am 'projecting my thoughts'..but you are so off the mark its not funny. I was just another average Aussie bloke, used to go clubbing, partied with my mates every weekend, went out chasing chicks, had many many female friends...and many females that were 'more then friends'...if you know what I mean. I never had any problems meeting woman...and am still friends with plenty...and even ended up marrying one.

I know how woman are portrayed in society, and if you truly believe that woman are respected in Australian culture, especially by young men, then you are either deliberately lying, or you really have no idea.

I seriously suggest you go out one Saturday night..try the casino..or maybe QBH. Take a female friend out clubbing, spend a couple of hours on the dancefloor, and see how often she will be harrased by men, despite the fact that she is there with you.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:01pm:


So you went to the beach and admired the girls without 'getting lusted'. Did you admire the guys aswell.

As I said...your full of sh(t.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:01pm:


I know every male is not the same as me. As I said...I respect woman, and unlike you...I"m not a bigot.

So yes..you are right, we are very different.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:01pm:


So says the sexual deviat who wants to ogle women in bikini's...not because he lusts after them, but only because he likes to 'admire' them.

hhehe. yeah right.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:16pm:


Maybe you just can't get it up anymore. Impotency maybe.

Oh well...lifes a b(tch.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:58pm:


I think your characterisation of western society has a grain of truth but is grossly distorted by your inability to resist exaggeration and rhetorical elephantiasis. I have not grown up in such circles, my sons are not growing up in such cirles. I do not know anyone who thinks or behaves as you describe.
I do recognise also the kernel of truth in your characterisation of universal ideals that islam also shares. I do think howeveer, that you again grossly distort the actualalities of male/female relationship in islam by rhetorical idealisation. There is a Stalinist ring to the parallels you paint of the evil and the angelic.

I do not doubt or dispute for one moment that certain individiual muslims may very well be, and are, honourable, examplary, magnificent people, full of respect and brimming with what is best in us, humans.
My point is always that they are so despite some extra odds they need to overcome. For this reason they may well be the more remarkable.

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Just a grain? I suggest you go out on a Saturday night and see for yourself. I think you will be slightly disapointed.

How old are your sons? Do they go out clubbing. If yes...do you think you know what they get up too. I can guarantee you that you may think you do..but you don't.

Lestat wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:31pm:


I thought there is no such thing as rape between a married couple in Islam? Islam promotes lust between married couples doesn't it?