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Warning to West on 'evil of Islam' (Read 19060 times)
jordan484
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #15 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:05pm
 
Excellent, you've now moved on from attacking the author, to attacking me. You've made assumptions and now have decided they are the truth in your mind.

You're not worth the bother.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #16 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:20pm
 
Quote:
You're not worth the bother.


Is that 'code' for "Ok I admit I can't find a single point she made in the article"?

Anyway I'll leave you to your little anti-Islam bash, and I'll allow Rabbi Stephen Stein to finish off the response to Mrs. Sultan.

Quote:
The seductive and blinkered belligerence of Wafa Sultan.

By Stephen Julius Stein, Los Angeles Times

STEPHEN JULIUS STEIN is a rabbi at Wilshire Boulevard Temple, where he also directs inter-religious programming.
June 25, 2006
RECENTLY I WAS one of about 100 L.A. Jews invited to attend a fundraiser for a Jewish organization that seeks to counteract anti-Israel disinformation and propaganda. The guest speaker was Wafa Sultan, the Syrian American woman who in February gave a now legendary interview on Al Jazeera television, during which she said that "the Muslims are the ones who began the clash of civilizations" and "I don't believe you can reform Islam."

The audience warmly greeted Sultan, a psychiatrist who immigrated to Southern California in 1989. One of Time magazine's 100 "pioneers and heroes," she said she was neither a Christian, Muslim nor Jew but a secular human being. "I have 1.3 billion patients," she quipped early in her remarks, referring to the global Muslim population. Sultan went on to condemn inhumane acts committed in God's name, to denounce Islamic martyrdom and to decry terror as a tool to subjugate communities. Those statements all made perfect sense.

Then this provocative voice said something odd: "Only Arab Muslims can read the Koran properly because you have to speak Arabic to know what it means — you cannot translate it." Any translation is, by definition, interpretation, and Arabic is no more difficult to accurately translate than Hebrew. In fact, the Hebrew of the Bible poses many more formidable translation problems than Arabic. Are Christians and Jews who cannot read it ill-equipped to live by its meanings?

Another surprising remark soon followed: "All Muslim women — even American ones, though they won't admit it — are living in a state of domination." Do they include my friend Nagwa Eletreby, a Boeing engineer and expert on cockpit controls, who did not seek her husband's permission to help me dress the Torah scroll? Or how about my friend Azima Abdel-Aziz, a New York University graduate who traveled to Israel with 15 Jews and 14 other Muslims — and left her husband at home?

There is no subjugation in the homes of these and other American Muslim women I know. They are equal, fully contributing members of their families.

The more Sultan talked, the more evident it became that progress in the Muslim world was not her interest. Even more troubling, it was not what the Jewish audience wanted to hear about. Applause, even cheers, interrupted her calumnies.

Judea Pearl, an attendee and father of murdered journalist Daniel Pearl, was one of the few voices of restraint and nuance heard that afternoon. In response to Sultan's assertion that the Koran contains only verses of evil and domination, Pearl said he understood the book also included "verses of peace" that proponents of Islam uphold as the religion's true intent. The Koran's verses on war and brutality, Pearl contended, were "cultural baggage," as are similar verses in the Torah. Unfortunately, his words were drowned out by the cheers for Sultan's full-court press against Islam and Muslims.


Read the rest here
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abu_rashid  
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jordan484
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #17 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:37pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:20pm:
Is that 'code' for "Ok I admit I can't find a single point she made in the article"?



No. It's plain English. It means you're not worth the bother.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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mozzaok
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #18 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 8:01pm
 
I don't know about that Jordan, he regularly makes me smile, so that is a positive.

Abu, the points she makes are valid, and the reply from the Rabbi included the line about the korans talk of war as cultural baggage.

How do you respond to that point?
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #19 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 8:57pm
 
Quote:
Abu, the points she makes are valid


Ok, perhaps you'd like to give it a try. Can you show me one 'point' she made in the article?

Quote:
the reply from the Rabbi included the line about the korans talk of war as cultural baggage. How do you respond to that point?


What's there to respond about? He's a Rabbi, his views are I'm sure quite valid, for the religion which has Rabbis as their scholars...
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mozzaok
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #20 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 9:34pm
 
You seem quite cowardly in your approach to defending what you claim is perfection delivered directly from god.

You posted his response, as a reasoned reply to someone you disagree with, but then denigrate his opinions as being less valid than yours because his religion is different.

There must be a name for such blinding arrogance, for such blinding ignorance.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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freediver
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #21 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 9:45pm
 
I'd say Abu believes the violent bits of the Koran are divine guyidance, as well as the peaceful ones. Right Abu?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #22 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 11:03pm
 
Quote:
You posted his response, as a reasoned reply to someone you disagree with, but then denigrate his opinions as being less valid than yours because his religion is different.


I posted his criticisms of someone, and therefore I must adopt his views about everything? How so?

I did not denigrate anything, I merely pointed out he's a scholar of Judaism, and his opinions are probably quite fine for adherents of Judaism, that's denigration?

mozza, you're not doing a lot to convince me you're a sane rational participant in any discussion I'm engaged in with you.
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abu_rashid  
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abu_rashid
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #23 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 11:05pm
 
Quote:
I'd say Abu believes the violent bits of the Koran are divine guyidance, as well as the peaceful ones. Right Abu?


As I mentioned in the other thread, I believe 100% in the Qur'an.

The verses of the Qur'an which deal with violence are no different to the articles in the Geneva convention that deal with violence. Do you believe in those? Or the articles of the Australian constitution that deal with the defense of the Australian nation, agree with those?
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mozzaok
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #24 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 7:15am
 
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As I mentioned in the other thread, I believe 100% in the Qur'an.


Why would you believe that the bits he left were the word of God, and the bits he took out were a trick from Satan?

If Satan was capable of tricking your prophet once, how do we know that he was not ultimately tricked into creating a false book of evil, instead of a divine book of good?

To many an outside, impartial, observer, there is a great deal of contradiction, and promotion of evil concepts in your supposed holy book.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #25 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 7:24am
 
Quote:
Why would you believe that the bits he left were the word of God, and the bits he took out were a trick from Satan?


There were no bits taken out. Are you referring to the fictitious work of Salman Rushdie? Or was his book non-fiction in your deluded mind?

If you can show any bits that were taken out, and any single manuscript that shows there were other 'bits' originally in there, then I'll accept your deluded ideas.

Quote:
To many an outside, impartial, observer, there is a great deal of contradiction, and promotion of evil concepts in your supposed holy book.


You've admitted you've never read, so how would you even know? Are you psychic or something?  Grin
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #26 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 9:13am
 
The verses of the Qur'an which deal with violence are no different to the articles in the Geneva convention that deal with violence. Do you believe in those? Or the articles of the Australian constitution that deal with the defense of the Australian nation, agree with those?

Do they encourage the victor to occupy the land, take all the possessions and either force the locals out or turn them into slaves?

If you can show any bits that were taken out, and any single manuscript that shows there were other 'bits' originally in there, then I'll accept your deluded ideas.

Wasn't there some bloke who removed bits because they were a bit too extreme?
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mozzaok
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #27 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 9:23am
 
No, I have not read the whole koran, just selected quotes, I am working on the same principle as you, in taking what it says as line by line literal instruction.

So I do not need to read the total book, to receive the meaning.
To look at the book in it's totality, and extract it's spiritual meaning, while putting the more violent warlike verses into a cultural context, has already been declared as unacceptable.(do you remember?)

So, any line is as valid as any other, and there are some doozies in there.

Have you read Rushdi's book Abu?
Let's hope not, or you may end up dead at the hand of some Islamic fruitloop.
So far we have only seen the japanese translator of the book murdered. The Italian translator survived his vicious stabbing attack, and the Norwegian publisher also survived his assassination attempt.
Maybe the attackers were not good enough muslims yet, or surely Allah would help them to get their murdering right?

Rushdi did write a novel, but the bits that enraged muslims, was based on his readings of Arab historians, 'al-Waqidi', and 'al-Tabari'.
Not as you implied, a fictional concept.
What a surprise, more attempts at deceit from a muslim apologist.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #28 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 10:19am
 
Quote:
Do they encourage the victor to occupy the land, take all the possessions and either force the locals out or turn them into slaves?


I didn't mean to imply they reached the same outcome/ruling about different issues. Merely that the Qur'aanic verses dealing with war/violence are injuctions addressing a nation and their head of state, not individuals and inciting them to commit individual acts of violence, as the opponents of Islam usually like to imply.

Quote:
Wasn't there some bloke who removed bits because they were a bit too extreme?


Only instance i know of someone removing something, is an American who tried to remove two verses that didn't conform to his magic number 19.

There are several complete manuscripts in Turkey, Uzbekistan, Britain and other places that testify to fidelity of the circulated text of the Qur'an we have today.

What 'some bloke' does, doesn't impact the slightest on the consistency of the Qur'an.
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Re: Warning to West on 'evil of Islam'
Reply #29 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 11:07am
 
Maybe it was a hadith.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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