Australian Politics Forum - Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh

GSS

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #30 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 12:23pm

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 12:19pm:

GSS, it should be obvious why it isn't an option. It is a highly volatile, life or death situation. You've got a nutcase on the ground rolling over some dodgy home made explosives. Knocking someone out takes more time and is far more likely to fail than shooting them. So you shoot them. It's just basic common sense.

after handcuffing them and getting close enough to knock them out that is......it's obvious that he was somewhat sub-dued, given that they managed to get handcuffs on him.

does that make sense to you? he was calm enough to put handcuffs on him, but the situation suddenly became volatile after that.

sorry, but that story doesn't add up.

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GSS

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #31 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 12:28pm

if u take the Israeli story, that the guy had a bomb and they had to shot him because it was a life or death situation - then u have to wonder why they handcuffed him in the first place??

if he really had a bomb, then they would have shot him straight away.

why would they go through all the trouble to handcuff him first?

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Acid Monkey Gold Member Offline Goth Father Posts: 1064 EU Gender:	Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh Reply #32 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 12:40pm Good link - Rules of Engagement. Thanks.
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Acid Monkey

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #33 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 12:53pm

Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 12:21pm:

Again, no one has addressed this point. The Israeli's said that he was wearing a big coat and refused to take it off, that's why they killed him.

Was he wearing a big coat when he was shot?

If not then that means the Israeli's lied

There was no coat shown on the ground either when he was alive, then why did you mention that the robot could possibly be removing the coat?

Was there even a coat? Who said that there was a coat. I've found no references to the Iraelis saying anything about asking him to remove his coat. Can you produce a link of this fact.

You seem obsess with this coat. What about the question of whether he did have a belt on him or not? You don't seem to concern about this discrepency.

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freediver

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #34 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:16pm

But it also confirms that the Israeli's would have shot him dead straight away

No it doesn't.

none of them would have been anywhere near him when they shot him either

Yes they would. They would not have let him go and said please don't detonate until we walk away and shoot you from a distance. They would have held onto him while they shot him, just as the photos indicate.

it's obvious that he was somewhat sub-dued

Yes GSS he was somewhat subdued, and if they had tried to knock him out instead of killing him, they may have ended up somewhat dead.

does that make sense to you? he was calm enough to put handcuffs on him, but the situation suddenly became volatile after that

Sure it makes sense - all hell broke loose when they realised he was trying to detonate a bomb.

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GSS

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #35 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:46pm

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:16pm:

Sure it makes sense - all hell broke loose when they realised he was trying to detonate a bomb.

okay, so the suicide bomber had a bomb strapped to his chest and decided not to detonate it until after he was handcuffed.

umm.....why didn't he detonate it when he wasn't handcuffed?
i.e. he still had the use of his hands to detonate the bomb, rather than rolling around on the floor when handcuffed.
wouldn't that have made more sense?

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #36 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:47pm

Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 12:53pm:

There was no coat shown on the ground either when he was alive, then why did you mention that the robot could possibly be removing the coat?

Was there even a coat? Who said that there was a coat. I've found no references to the Iraelis saying anything about asking him to remove his coat. Can you produce a link of this fact.

You seem obsess with this coat. What about the question of whether he did have a belt on him or not? You don't seem to concern about this discrepency.

Look at the report I've posted from BBC which I've found online below:

There's no proof that he'd had a bomb on him, in fact the Israeli reactions tend to indicate he didn't because they all wouldn't have been standing around him like that.

They would have shot him dead long before because they don't mess around with bombs.
Quote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1867726.stm
Controversy over 'execution' pictures

Eleven photographs taken by an amateur photographer from his window in east Jerusalem have caused outrage in the Arabic media, which allege they show the summary execution of a Palestinian militant.
Israeli police said the man was a would-be suicide bomber who they were forced to kill to prevent him from detonating a "large explosive device" strapped to his waist.

The AFP news agency - which published the graphic, but inconclusive images below - said it had received the testimonies of more than 10 eyewitnesses, who said the man was shot half-an-hour after his arrest when he was completely subdued.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1865000/images/_1867726_first300.jpg
Israeli police are first pictured arresting 23-year-old suspected suicide bomber Mahmud Salah (centre) and another man

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1865000/images/_1867726_second300again.jpg
Salah - who was on a bombing mission for the militant al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade - is brought to the ground by a police

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1865000/images/_1867726_thirdd300.jpg
The other detainee is led away but Salah is kept on the tarmac

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1865000/images/_1867726_fourth300.jpg
This photo appears to belie an official statement saying police only opened fire when Salah refused to remove his overcoat

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1865000/images/_1867726_sixth300.jpg
A robot device then removed what was described as Salah's explosives belt

Sorry those pics don't seem to come up. but check the link

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freediver

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #37 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:53pm

umm.....why didn't he detonate it when he wasn't handcuffed?

Perhaps there weren't enough people around.

because they all wouldn't have been standing around him like that

Haven't we gone over this numerous times already Malik? Are you trying sprint's tactic now of repeating the same claim over and over and ignoring the response?

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #38 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:59pm

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:53pm:

umm.....why didn't he detonate it when he wasn't handcuffed?

Perhaps there weren't enough people around.

That's rediculous, he was already captured FD and was about to be handcuffed.. the first thing they would have done is frisked him and found the bomb on him.. not waited until they stripped him down to find it.
freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:53pm:

because they all wouldn't have been standing around him like that

Haven't we gone over this numerous times already Malik? Are you trying sprint's tactic now of repeating the same claim over and over and ignoring the response?

Are you going to claim that you know more about Israeli military strategy and tactics than I do? Because I can assure you that you don't.

NO MILITARY OR POLICE FORCE IN THE WORLD WOULD BE STANDING THAT CLOSE TO A LIVE BOMB WHEN IT WAS STILL POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE COULD DETONATE IT UNLESS THEY ARE AN EOD SQUAD, WHICH THESE POLICE WERE NOT. PLUS THEY'D HAVE CLEARED THE AREA OF THE OTHER POLICE AND ANYONE ELSE NOT NEEDED THERE.

They would have shot him dead, if you understand anything about Israeli soldiers it's that they wont put their lives in danger in that situation, they'll shoot the bomber straight away and THEN send the robot in to take the bomb off of him.

They didn't do that, instead they wasted time holding him down and stripped him naked before even thinking about it. They waited a whole half an hour for it.

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #39 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:02pm

Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:53pm:

umm.....why didn't he detonate it when he wasn't handcuffed?

Perhaps there weren't enough people around.

That's rediculous, he was already captured FD and was about to be handcuffed.. the first thing they would have done is frisked him and found the bomb on him.. not waited until they stripped him down to find it.

actually malik, usually when the israeli's arrest suspected terrorists, they order them to lift their shirts from far away to show that they aren't wearing any bombs.

the frisk when they are close are for small weapons, or in some cases, just to humiliate the arrested individual by stripping them of their clothes - kind of abu ghraib style.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #40 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:04pm

GSS wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:02pm:

Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 1:53pm:

umm.....why didn't he detonate it when he wasn't handcuffed?

Perhaps there weren't enough people around.

That's rediculous, he was already captured FD and was about to be handcuffed.. the first thing they would have done is frisked him and found the bomb on him.. not waited until they stripped him down to find it.

actually malik, usually when the israeli's arrest suspected terrorists, they order them to lift their shirts from far away to show that they aren't wearing any bombs.

the frisk when they are close are for small weapons, or in some cases, just to humiliate the arrested individual.

Yes that's correct, they even sometimes make palestinians even take their shirts off when they arrest them

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freediver

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #41 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:06pm

the first thing they would have done is frisked him and found the bomb on him.. not waited until they stripped him down to find it.

Which is what they were doing in the photo

not waited until they stripped him down to find it.

Maybe they were trying to capture him alive by disarming the device, as is standard procedure, but then changed their minds when he started thrashing about.

Are you going to claim that you know more about Israeli military strategy and tactics than I do?

I'm just pointing out errors in your logic. And besides, you claim Israelis shoot at children in schools for sport, which is obviously not true, so you must be getting your info from very unreliable sources.

NO MILITARY OR POLICE FORCE IN THE WORLD WOULD BE STANDING THAT CLOSE TO A LIVE BOMB WHEN IT WAS STILL POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE COULD DETONATE IT.

And your dodgy sequence of photos that are out of order and missing important bits does not clarify whether this happened. It looks more like a montage of images try tell a story that is nothing like what really happened. You claim it occured over a long period of time. It could represent only ten seconds of action.

It's kind of hypocritical to whine about the death of a member of a terrorist organisation while ignoring the context of those same people blowing up innocent Israelis on busses. This death, even if unjustified, is an inevitable consequence of those dirty tactics. Do you really expect people to care that a member of the martyr's brigade gets killed?

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #42 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:11pm

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:06pm:

the first thing they would have done is frisked him and found the bomb on him.. not waited until they stripped him down to find it.

Which is what they were doing in the photo

Before the Israeli's would have frisked him they'd have asked him to lift his shirt. This is why they said they shot him when he refused to lift his overcoat up to prove he didn't have a bomb.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:06pm:

not waited until they stripped him down to find it.

Maybe they were trying to capture him alive by disarming the device, as is standard procedure, but then changed their minds when he started thrashing about.

They'd have made him remove the bomb himself, if he refused or tried to blow himself up they'd have shot him.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:06pm:

Are you going to claim that you know more about Israeli military strategy and tactics than I do?

I'm just pointing out errors in your logic. And besides, you claim Israelis shoot at children in schools for sport, which is obviously not true, so you must be getting your info from very unreliable sources.

The Israeli's kill Palestinians unessecarily with no cause and not in self defence. If we do that to an animal it's considered hunting for sport, but when an Israeli does it to a Palestinian you don't even consider it worth mentioning.

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:06pm:

NO MILITARY OR POLICE FORCE IN THE WORLD WOULD BE STANDING THAT CLOSE TO A LIVE BOMB WHEN IT WAS STILL POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE COULD DETONATE IT.

And your dodgy sequence of photos that are out of order and missing important bits does not clarify whether this happened. It looks more like a montage of images try tell a story that is nothing like what really happened. You claim it occured over a long period of time. It could represent only ten seconds of action.

It's obvious the Israeli's didn't feel threatened or they wouldn't have been standing around like that. It's standard operating procedure to move unessecary people out of the range of the bomb

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #43 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:19pm

Malik, they are all valid questions and points. But they are not questiosn that can be resolved with your deceptive photo sequence. The case is obviously not as clear cut as you imagine and you cannot expect us to take the photo sequence seriously when certain parts were deliberately omitted. It's like when you read about the school kid getting shot and the accusations that the Israelis did it, then came up with an absurd fantasy of Israelis shooting at kids in schools for sport.

You accused many members here of considering Muslims to be subhuman etc etc. When you deliberately misrepresent us at the drop of a hat, why should we take your interpretation of events on the other side of the world seriously?

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Acid Monkey

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Re: Cold Blooded Israeli Execution of Mahmoud Saleh
Reply #44 - Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:25pm

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2008 at 2:06pm:

It's kind of hypocritical to whine about the death of a member of a terrorist organisation while ignoring the context of those same people blowing up innocent Israelis on busses. This death, even if unjustified, is an inevitable consequence of those dirty tactics. Do you really expect people to care that a member of the martyr's brigade gets killed?

Agreed. As I've said, he is not an innocent victim.

And, the whole sequence of photos are inconclusive at best.

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