mantra,

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I was specifically referring to the "look twice their age and probably have half the lifespan" part of your comment. There's no doubting Muslims have more children, this is due to strong family values, something the west is increasingly moving away from.

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It doesn't indicate that at all. Muslims are around 2% of the population, the statistics you quoted say non-Muslims have on average 2 babies each, whilst Muslims have on average 2.9. At that rate, Muslims would need to be more than 40% of the population to even match the number of children non-Muslims are having.

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As we say, Insha'Allah

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No this isn't obvious at all. Again I am asking are you basing this on facts or is it just a "gut feeling"?

Firstly just basing this on "muslim women you see" is not a very empirical method of determining such things, secondly how on earth do you know their actual ages to judge if they look old or not for their age?

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The statistics said Muslim women have a "somewheat lower level of educational attainment overall", I wonder why they chose to steer clear of words like 'substantial'? Yes Muslim women are generally more focused on family and therefore less on self-education, but this doesn't really mean that overall the Muslim community is uneducated. In fact, growing up as an Aussie, I knew of no fellow Aussie who had attended university, and I was the first member from my family to attend university, Yet since becoming a Muslim I've barely met a Muslim family where the [relevant-aged] children do not attend university. Look around at Australian universities, they're full of Muslims, barely a single university exists in the capital cities that doesn't have a huge MSA (Muslim Students Association).

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All the statistics you showed about education were nothing to do with Australia, and therefore are not really relevant to this discussion. The only statistics that mentioned education at all in Australia referred to women in the 40-44 age group, who were most likely born/raised overseas, and therefore is irrelevant when discussing the children.

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Islam is not a violent doctrine, this is just nonsense. Verses from the Bible are far more violent than those mentioned in the Qur'an. The Qur'an in fact implores Muslims not to go beyond the limits when it comes to aggression, and makes it clear that God dislikes the transgressors who go beyond limits. Compare this to the Bible where people are ordered supposedly by God to ravage entire cities, killing the men, women, children and old folk and even rip unborn babies from their mothers wombs. And when we look at the reality, we find the Australian government, whose doctrines I assume you support, is engaged in three wars in different Muslim countries, and then you have the hide to claim we're the violent ones? Get a grip on reality.

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Why do you frame this as "we cover them up". If Christian women cover their breasts because they think it's immoral not to, would you accuse Christian men of covering them up? This logic is very skewed, and it's quite obvious you don't have a decent argument to present on that topic.

Jewish women also cover their hair and legs and so forth, to a similar level as Muslim women, do you think Jewish men are "covering them up"?

Top Iranian cleric calls for death for all who do not respect the veil.

Once more we see the fruits of having a state run by religious nuts, these goons who confuse religion and politics, and represent the highest echelon of Islamic culture and learning, show the very ugly face of Islam without any hint of apology for their barbaric beliefs.

Here is his quote, made when expanding on how women who do not wear the full veil, should be dealt with.
I copied from an article posted on "Live,Leak"

"These women and their husbands and their fathers must die," said Hassani, who is the representative of the Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei in eastern Azerbaijan.


These guys are representative of the "true" form of Islam that people like Abu, and Malik look to for example, and is the type of Islam they would like to see introduced in Australia.

When I suggest that a more moderate form of Islam is a better way to interpret their religion in a modern world, they reject that as unacceptable, but hideous, violent, misogynistic people like this crackpot cleric get their approval.
They wish to pursue these totally unacceptable practices, and expect us to give them the "Religious Freedom", to pursue their ideal of developing, and extending these practices in Australia, through a policy protecting their separatist agenda.

I don't think we non-muslims will let them do that, no matter how much they squeal about religious rights, or cultural identity, or racial vilification, some things are so obviously wrong that they will never be allowed to be legitimised by any who want to be included in our australian culture.

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I think describing God as benign or not doesn't make a lot of sense. Believers in God obviously believe that God controls the entire universe, and therefore sometimes wipes out entire planets probably (with mere movement of a specific comet or asteroid into a slightly different path), it's therefore irrelevant as God is the overall controller of all matter in the physical universe, therefore all good as well as bad occurences are within his realm of control. Since you're most likely an atheist? that doesn't really have much significance for you, but it does render your point about no religions having a benign God completely irrelevant.

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What % of Australians are atheist? or signficantly secular enough to consider most of the teachings of religion irrelevant to their lives? I've always wondered this, as I've observed most Australians to be quite atheist and significantly secular enough to pretty much rule religion out of most aspects of their lives.

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Not as far as Islam is concerned it's not. The Qur'anic injunctions that refer to violence, refer to it only in the context of a state engaging in warfare, not in the context of individuals committing violent acts.

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I have to agree with you on that one. But the fact is that it's been with us since time immemorial, and probably will be until the end. Conflict is a part of human nature, that I don't think we'll ever outgrow or progress beyond. Islam recognises this, and lays down strict rules of conduct during conflicts between states, it is most certainly not a violence-oriented doctrine as you've claimed. No more than the Geneva convention is a violent doctrine, because it lays down a code of conduct for nations at war. In fact the Qur'anic rules of conduct in conflict are probably the strictest in human history, to the point that even trees are not permitted to be damaged during war.

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Yes I know, I was one of those Australians who marched in earlier anti-iraq-war protests before I became a Muslim.

And if you hold those views, then I commend you for that, but the fact is, at the time, a lot of Australians did support it (as they sheepishly reacted to the propaganda) and that's when it was important. And in fact some of the views you've expressed here, almost border on that same kind of ignorant, ill-informed anti-Islamic propaganda that permitted the Australian government to assist in the invasion of those countries.

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You could be right Abu, but you've got an arrogant attitude (common in Muslim men), and as you are a recent convert, it's obvious you will fit right in as a Muslim.  Show us some good examples of the sort of people Islam attracts?

mantra,

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A 'but' is not a good answer to something you recognise to be right.

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How many Muslim men do you know? And to be fair I don't think I was really being arrogant, in fact I was merely countering attacks made against Islam. Arrogance is usually displayed by those in the attacking stance, not those on the defensive.

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Well I don't know about recent. 9 years ago isn't really all that recent.

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Well since you're a pacifist, how about a chorus of 'Peace train' with Cat Stevens (now known as Yusuf Islam)?

MalcolmX (El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz), perhaps not known for pacifism, but he was a very principled dedicated civil rights activist.

Michael Wolfe, American writer, famous for his ABC documentary about Hajj.

Margaret Marcus (Maryam Jameelah), American essayist, poet, journalist and author of several books. She converted from Judaism to Islam in 1962 and wrote a famous series of correspondances with the great Islamic Scholar of Pakistan Mawlah Abu'l Alaa al-Mawdudi.

Daniel Moore (Abdal-Hayy), American poet and essayist.

Yvonne Ridley, British journalist who was captured by the Talibaan and held prisoner, after her release converted to Islam and has lectured all over the world about Islam, I've had the pleasure of attending her lectures in Australia.

Leopold Weiss (Muhammad Asad), Austro-Hungarian Jew who converted to Islam and later served as one of the first Pakistani ambassadors to the United Nations.

Hedley Churchward (Mahmoud Mobarek), English set designer and painter, notable for converting to Islam and in 1910 being the first known British Muslim to make the Hajj.

Dr. Ingrid Mattson, Ph.D, Canadian professor and activist and the current president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA).

Knud Valdemar Gylding Holmboe (Ali Ahmad), Danish journalist and explorer, famous for his criticism of the Italian occupation of North Africa.

Not an exhaustive list, but some of the most well known and respected people who've become Muslims in the last century.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 4^th, 2008 at 2:35pm:


I reckon it went something like this.

Convert and say we are good, or we will track you down easily because you are famous and torture you to death.

Alright, maybe not.