Australian Politics Forum - How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??

Acid Monkey

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #75 - Jul 27^th, 2008 at 12:39am

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 26^th, 2008 at 8:07am:

mozza,

Quote:

Thanks for that acid, I did not know how far the original conquests got.

Think you're going to weasel your way out of this one do you?

There were no 'original conquests'. No Muslim army was ever despatched by the Caliph in Baghdad to go and conquer Indonesia, in fact I doubt 99% of Muslims from the time even knew Indonesia had become Muslim. The people themselves embraced Islam en masse and that's how the country became Muslim.

You really like to split hairs don't you. The context of this discussion was that Islam conquered Indonesia via trade and not by the sword. That's true, up to a point.

There may not have been any order despatched by Baghdad to "conquer" Indonesia. Trade brought Islam to Sumatra. But the sword brought Islam to Java, Kalimantan, Sulawesi and Muluku (see my previous post). Dismissing it as an "internal issue" is irrelevant to the discussion.

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abu_rashid

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #76 - Jul 27^th, 2008 at 10:41am

Acid,

Quote:

I don't think I am.... you called him a bigot towards Muslims.

You really should go back and read the posts involved again, more carefully I think. You quoted me, addressing his claims that Muslims, as a minority are attempting to alter the political landscape of Australia. And now you're talking about his opposition to various religions, they're two different issues.

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No. Trade came down as far as Malaya and Sumatra and the northwest tip of Java

I'm sorry but last time I checked Sumatra is in Indonesia, in fact it's the largest island in Indonesia. And as you mentioned it reached Java also. Therefore Islam arrived in Indonesia peacefully without any swords and that's the end of the story.

Just to provide a little bit of background though, so you don't waste any more posts with these futile back and forth arguments. Islam arrived in the 13th. century, the battles with the Majapahit Empire you mentioned occured in the 15th. century, around 200 years after the arrival of Islam.

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Only after the defeat of the Empire was Islam allowed to spread throughout the rest of what is now Indonesia.

The Majapahit Empire had a history of invading and conquering Sumatra, so it's no surprise the Sumatrans would've come into subsequent conflicts with them. There's no evidence to suggest those conflicts were the cause of the spread of Islam:

Quote:

It cannot be assumed, for example, that because a ruler was known to be a Muslim, that that the process of Islamisation of that area was complete; rather the process was, and remains to this day, a continuous process in Indonesia. Although it is known that the spread of Islam began in the west of the archipelago, the fragmentary evidence does not suggest a rolling wave of conversion through adjacent areas; rather, it suggests the process was complicated and slow.

Also the earliest evidence of Muslims in Indonesia dates back to a tombstone from the year 1082 which surprisingly enough was in Eastern Java.

A few more facts that are worth noting here, are that Bali for instance is till this day a predominantly Hindu island, no Islamic sword came and wiped them off the map and forced them to convert to Islam, there are also Hindus and Buddhists still spread throughout Indonesia. In fact this is true of most Muslim lands, the pre-Islamic religions still remain intact after 1200 odd years of Islam. Can we say the same for Christian Europe? Any examples of pre-Christian religions still extant in Europe? None that I can think of. Obviously you weren't arguing this point, but it does tend to counter the idea that Islam was spread by the sword, as a violent religion spread by the sword would have little need to leave surviving communities of competing religions intact.

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« Last Edit: Jul 27^th, 2008 at 10:57am by abu_rashid »

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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #77 - Jul 27^th, 2008 at 1:10pm Any examples of pre-Christian religions still extant in Europe? None that I can think of. Ever heard of judaism? Whatever blessings allah may have bestowed upon you Abu, it is obvious what he did not give you.
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #78 - Jul 27^th, 2008 at 1:44pm Judaism is a middle eastern religion. Besides it is the parent of Christianity so to speak and Christianity was considered a sect/movement within it to begin with, and therefore is not really relevant to that question, thanks for your input anyway.
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Malik Shakur

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #79 - Jul 27^th, 2008 at 2:46pm

mozzaok wrote on Jul 27^th, 2008 at 1:10pm:

Any examples of pre-Christian religions still extant in Europe? None that I can think of.

Ever heard of judaism?

Obviously Abu has been blessed with far more than you have Mozza,

Ever heard of the Inquisition? Europe murdered thousands upon thousands of Jews in brutal ways including burning them at the stake, forcibly converted tens of thousands more and expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews who came to live with us in the Middle East, under our protection.

Let's just take a look at what Europe did to those who were forced to convert to Christianity:

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How did the Inquisition work?

Jewish converses would be arrested and accused of not being true Christians. They wouldn't even know who was accusing them; evidence would be presented against them in secret. Then they would be tortured until they confessed to being heretics. Then, once they confessed, they would be killed. The usual form was burning at the stake, though if they were willing to kiss the cross, they would be spared the horrible pain of burning and would be strangled instead.

The key point is that it really didn't matter if they repented - they died either way.

What if some people refused to confess even under torture? Or worse, what if some people admitted right away to practicing Judaism secretly, but even when tortured refused to concede the truth of Christianity? If they survived the horrendous tortures, they would be burned at the stake in a ceremony called auto-da-fe meaning "act of faith."

VERY civilized mozza.. You've got a lot to be proud of there..

The fact is that Europeans were like snow. It looks nice, but once you get over it's beauty, you realize that it's so cold that you can't bare to be near it. All the colour and all of the beauty that is beneath the snow get's blanketed by the snow and it kills everything underneath it.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #80 - Jul 27^th, 2008 at 4:10pm

Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 27^th, 2008 at 2:46pm:

mozzaok wrote on Jul 27^th, 2008 at 1:10pm:

Any examples of pre-Christian religions still extant in Europe? None that I can think of.

Ever heard of judaism?

Obviously Abu has been blessed with far more than you have Mozza,

Ever heard of the Inquisition? Europe murdered thousands upon thousands of Jews in brutal ways including burning them at the stake, forcibly converted tens of thousands more and expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews who came to live with us in the Middle East, under our protection.

Let's just take a look at what Europe did to those who were forced to convert to Christianity:

Quote:

How did the Inquisition work?

Jewish converses would be arrested and accused of not being true Christians. They wouldn't even know who was accusing them; evidence would be presented against them in secret. Then they would be tortured until they confessed to being heretics. Then, once they confessed, they would be killed. The usual form was burning at the stake, though if they were willing to kiss the cross, they would be spared the horrible pain of burning and would be strangled instead.

The key point is that it really didn't matter if they repented - they died either way.

What if some people refused to confess even under torture? Or worse, what if some people admitted right away to practicing Judaism secretly, but even when tortured refused to concede the truth of Christianity? If they survived the horrendous tortures, they would be burned at the stake in a ceremony called auto-da-fe meaning "act of faith."

VERY civilized mozza.. You've got a lot to be proud of there..

The fact is that Europeans were like snow. It looks nice, but once you get over it's beauty, you realize that it's so cold that you can't bare to be near it. All the colour and all of the beauty that is beneath the snow get's blanketed by the snow and it kills everything underneath it.

Never mind the plans that the first and greatest Protestant reformer, Martin Luther, had for the Jews as outlined in his "On The Jews and their Lies"

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« Last Edit: Jul 27^th, 2008 at 6:02pm by NorthOfNorth »

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Acid Monkey

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #81 - Jul 27^th, 2008 at 9:54pm

I should say that even though I am a westerner I was born in Malaysia and have lived and worked in Indonesia (Bogor) for 10 years. My wife is also Indonesian. Therefore, I have a personal affiliation to the country and would have an above average knowledge of the country's culture and history than most westerners.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 27^th, 2008 at 10:41am:

Quote:

No. Trade came down as far as Malaya and Sumatra and the northwest tip of Java

I'm sorry but last time I checked Sumatra is in Indonesia, in fact it's the largest island in Indonesia. And as you mentioned it reached Java also. Therefore Islam arrived in Indonesia peacefully without any swords and that's the end of the story.

There you go splitting hairs again....

Sure Sumatra is the largest island. No arguments there. However, Sumatra is approx 1/5 of the whole Indonesia. So, I don't see why the size of the island matters at all. I mentioned he northwest TIP of Java - up to Bogor (barely 100km inland of Java) - thats like saying Islam reach Oz because it converted the whole of Tassie (conveniently leaving out the rest of the country.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 27^th, 2008 at 10:41am:

Just to provide a little bit of background though, so you don't waste any more posts with these futile back and forth arguments. Islam arrived in the 13th. century, the battles with the Majapahit Empire you mentioned occured in the 15th. century, around 200 years after the arrival of Islam.

What's the matter? Why don't you want to discuss this? Futile for whom?

The Majapahit Empire included Sumatra (in case you didn't know). And yes, you're right Islam came in the 13th century. And, the battles began in 1478 and lasted to 1520 -you're correct there. Now the fact that Sumatra was part of the Majapahit Empre from the 12th century and Islam came in the 13th century suggests Islam and Muslims wasn't a problem for the Majapahit Empire. It was only in the late 15th century (200 years after Islam entered Sumatra) that the Sulthanate of Malacca and later the Sultanate of Demak fought the Empire and won.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 27^th, 2008 at 10:41am:

The Majapahit Empire had a history of invading and conquering Sumatra, so it's no surprise the Sumatrans would've come into subsequent conflicts with them. There's no evidence to suggest those conflicts were the cause of the spread of Islam:

I've already said that Sumatra was already part of the Majapahit Empire and that Islam has already been there for 200 years. The wars was between first the Sultanate of Malacca which came from what is now Malaysia. The Sultanate invaded and occupied more than half of Sumatra. Shortly after the Sultanate of Demak was establish which continued the battle and defeated the Empire. The Empire was already in decline and diarray due to internal conflicts and wars for succession of the Empire. In fact the Empire was kingless for 3 years during the battle with the Demaks.

The "invading and conquering" of Sumatra you've mentioned was the wars in which the Empire tried to reclaim the land back from the invading Malaccans (something I'm sure you can empathise with ie: Palestinian cause).

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 27^th, 2008 at 10:41am:

Quote:

It cannot be assumed, for example, that because a ruler was known to be a Muslim, that that the process of Islamisation of that area was complete; rather the process was, and remains to this day, a continuous process in Indonesia. Although it is known that the spread of Islam began in the west of the archipelago, the fragmentary evidence does not suggest a rolling wave of conversion through adjacent areas; rather, it suggests the process was complicated and slow.

I don't know where you got that quote from - it certainly wasn't me.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 27^th, 2008 at 10:41am:

Also the earliest evidence of Muslims in Indonesia dates back to a tombstone from the year 1082 which surprisingly enough was in Eastern Java.

What does that prove except that some Muslims travelled as far as eastern Java. Nothing extraordinary about that. There are Chinese graves and tombstone in Ballarat during the gold rush era as well. So what?

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 27^th, 2008 at 10:41am:

A few more facts that are worth noting here, are that Bali for instance is till this day a predominantly Hindu island, no Islamic sword came and wiped them off the map and forced them to convert to Islam, there are also Hindus and Buddhists still spread throughout Indonesia.

The Demak Sultanate began it decline around 1548 when king Sunan Gunung Jati was killed during one of the conflicts with Hindu resistance group based in Sunda Kelapa (now Jakarta). This sparked an internal war for succesion which halted the Demak expansion. Following the Demak Sultanate the successor Jaka Tingkir declared a new Sultanate - the kingdom of Pajang and continued expansion right up to around 1590 when the Dutch arrived. I DID say that the expansion went as far as and but not into Bali itself.

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« Last Edit: Jul 27^th, 2008 at 9:59pm by Acid Monkey »

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abu_rashid

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #82 - Jul 28^th, 2008 at 10:36am

Acid,

Quote:

I should say that even though I am a westerner I was born in Malaysia and have lived and worked in Indonesia (Bogor) for 10 years. My wife is also Indonesian. Therefore, I have a personal affiliation to the country and would have an above average knowledge of the country's culture and history than most westerners.

Yeh you seem to have an above average knowledge of the region, but then again most Aussies probably don't even know where Indonesia is, wait... it's a Muslim country, it's in the Middle East isn't it?

Quote:

thats like saying Islam reach Oz because it converted the whole of Tassie (conveniently leaving out the rest of the country

The key word here being "reached". Islam did arrive in indonesia through Muslim traders, and established a state there without the use of the sword. Yes at some point they had to use their military to maintain and perhaps expand, but that doesn't detract from the original arrival one iota.

If anyone would seem to be splitting hairs, it would be you, continually trying to reformulate your original argument to say "But they didn't reach this or that island without the sword".

I'm sure your knowledge of the geography and history of Indonesia makes you aware of the fact that the designation of the archipelago as a single nation is a rather recent concept, back in that period that we're discussing there was no Indonesian nation, so speaking about the conversion of the entire nation is fruitless.

Quote:

The Majapahit Empire included Sumatra (in case you didn't know). And yes, you're right Islam came in the 13th century.

It did? So when the Muslims arrived, all of Sumatra was Majaphit? And the Muslims fought them to establish their earliest Sultanates? or the Majaphit just handed them over to the Muslims? From what I know, the Majaphit Empire was established around the same time as the Muslim Sultanates (ie. 1290's) and they grew around the same time, not one supplanting the other.

Quote:

Now the fact that Sumatra was part of the Majapahit Empre from the 12th century and Islam came in the 13th century suggests Islam and Muslims wasn't a problem for the Majapahit Empire

So you are saying the Majaphit Empire began in the 12th. century? Do you have any source for that?

Quote:

It was only in the late 15th century (200 years after Islam entered Sumatra) that the Sulthanate of Malacca and later the Sultanate of Demak fought the Empire and won.

Ok, if you agree it was 200 years after the arrival of Islam, why do you still insist on arguing? Islam did not arrive in Indonesia by the sword, it arrived through trade.

Quote:

I don't know where you got that quote from - it certainly wasn't me.

Sorry I left out the source. It is from a wikipedia article about Islam in Indonesia.

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easel Gold Member Offline Posts: 3120	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #83 - Jul 28^th, 2008 at 1:54pm Well at least they didn't convert South Iriya to Islam.
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Acid Monkey

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #84 - Jul 28^th, 2008 at 2:17pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 28^th, 2008 at 10:36am:

If anyone would seem to be splitting hairs, it would be you, continually trying to reformulate your original argument to say "But they didn't reach this or that island without the sword".

I'm sure your knowledge of the geography and history of Indonesia makes you aware of the fact that the designation of the archipelago as a single nation is a rather recent concept, back in that period that we're discussing there was no Indonesian nation, so speaking about the conversion of the entire nation is fruitless.

Well, the original post from Malik which led us to discuss Indonesia was how did Islam come to "Indonesia". Which you both agree (as do I, up to a point - if you'll read my original reply on the subject) that it was trade. It was Malik who used the current name for a particular region. If he had said that Islam came to this region via trade then I would agree wholeheartedly. However, we are talking about the history of Indonesia in the modern sense. Islam first came into Indonesia via trade and then later throughout the rest of what is now Indonesia via war.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 28^th, 2008 at 10:36am:

It did? So when the Muslims arrived, all of Sumatra was Majaphit? And the Muslims fought them to establish their earliest Sultanates? or the Majaphit just handed them over to the Muslims? From what I know, the Majaphit Empire was established around the same time as the Muslim Sultanates (ie. 1290's) and they grew around the same time, not one supplanting the other.

Now, you're testing my memory.... I've have to look at some of my old history books and consult with the expert (my wife). Wink

The Majapahit Empire was established in approx 1290. It stretched up to Malaya, southern Thailand, the whole of Sumatra, Java, Borneo, and as far east as Irian Jaya. Muslims cohabited with Hindus within its borders for at least 200 years with some/many vassal states completely embracing Islam.

The Sultanate of Malacca was established in 1402 after decades of internal political upheaval between the the Emporer and the vassal state of Palembang (where Parameswara was king). Parameswara was a Buddhist, who claimed descendence from Alexander the Great, and converted to Islam when he married a Pasai princess. He fled to what is now Malaysia and founded the city of Melaka where he established the Sultanate. The Sultanate of Malacca took the entire Malayan Peninisula up to southern Thailand and more than half of the Sumatran island.

The Sultanate of Demak was establish around 1500 by Chek Kopo (a Muslim of Chinese descent) around the same time when the Majapahit Empire was in the advance stage of decline. When the Sultanate invaded the last remnants of the Majapahit (East Java) in 1527, the Empire was already in major disarray with internal factional fighting and leaderless. The Demak forces took the remaining island of Java, right up to the coast.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 28^th, 2008 at 10:36am:

So you are saying the Majaphit Empire began in the 12th. century? Do you have any source for that?

My mistake, a typo - 13th century.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 28^th, 2008 at 10:36am:

Ok, if you agree it was 200 years after the arrival of Islam, why do you still insist on arguing? Islam did not arrive in Indonesia by the sword, it arrived through trade.

I wasn't arguing, I was clarifying and expanding. Read my orginal post. Malik statement of Islam coming to Indonesia isn't accurate in the context of modern geogrpahy which you agree that the Indonesian nation didn't exist at the time.

Evidently, you find persistant clarification as annoying as I.
Wink

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Acid Monkey Gold Member Offline Goth Father Posts: 1064 EU Gender:	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #85 - Jul 28^th, 2008 at 2:18pm abu_rashid wrote on Jul 28^th, 2008 at 10:36am: Sorry I left out the source. It is from a wikipedia article about Islam in Indonesia. I thought that you found wiki sources dubious?
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abu_rashid

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #86 - Jul 28^th, 2008 at 4:37pm

Acid,

Quote:

Islam first came into Indonesia via trade and then later throughout the rest of what is now Indonesia via war.

Although I will agree that later (200 years later) the various Islamic Sultanates did engage in wars against the Hindu states I don't think this is any cause to automatically assume they spread Islam, even later, by the sword. Rival nations go to war for a lot of different reasons, but that doesn't necessarily mean that one is spreading it's belief by the sword. The evidence of how Islam was distributed throughout Indonesia doesn't tend to support the idea that it was spread by a warring state.

Quote:

I wasn't arguing, I was clarifying and expanding.

Well probably would've been better if you just left mozza to answer

I noticed he fled with his tail between his legs though.

Quote:

Read my orginal post. Malik statement of Islam coming to Indonesia isn't accurate in the context of modern geogrpahy which you agree that the Indonesian nation didn't exist at the time.

Well it's quite relevant to say when Islam came to Indonesia, ie. to the land that is now deignated as Indonesia, of course the spread of Islam there wouldn't have corresponded exactly to borders we know today, as no such borders existed in that time, but to use Indonesia as a general placemark in an historical context is fine, I think.

Quote:

Evidently, you find persistant clarification as annoying as I

Especially when it assists the real target of the questions to avoid answering them

Quote:

I thought that you found wiki sources dubious?

Only when they contradict my viewpoint Wink

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Acid Monkey Gold Member Offline Goth Father Posts: 1064 EU Gender:	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #87 - Jul 28^th, 2008 at 7:55pm abu_rashid wrote on Jul 28^th, 2008 at 4:37pm: Quote: I thought that you found wiki sources dubious? Only when they contradict my viewpoint
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jordan484 Gold Member Offline Genuine Aussie Posts: 1115	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #88 - Jul 28^th, 2008 at 8:05pm I thought this was "ozpolitics". I think I must have wandered into "muslimvillage" by mistake.
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Acid Monkey Gold Member Offline Goth Father Posts: 1064 EU Gender:	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #89 - Jul 28^th, 2008 at 8:11pm Yes, you could have easily have been mistaken. Welcome, anyway. Stick around and argue your points on politics, Islam or otherwsie.
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