Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2008 at 10:29am:


Of course, he's a liar.. He only wants to make it look like he wants Muslim dialogue but what he wants is to incite hatred against Islam and not have anyone speak out against it.

This thread is a wank-handed attempt at trolling. Nothing more.

mozzaok wrote on Jul 25^th, 2008 at 10:55am:

If you don't like Muslims making demands for better conditions and circumstances in the West, stop taking our countries over and installing dictators. Then we'll all leave to our own lands and you can be free from us.

mozzaok wrote on Jul 25^th, 2008 at 11:06am:


If Islam was spread by the sword, perhaps you can tell me how Indonesia which has the largest Muslim population in the world in one country could be majority Muslim?

Did we force them too?

He wont be able to answer that question because at the end of the day he'd have to admit that Islam came to Indonesia through trade and was not imposed on Indonesians at all, they chose Islam for themselves and happily became Muslims.

If he admits that then he'll have to accept that Islam wasn't spread by the sword. His complete arrogance, holier than thou attitude and self righteousness in being an atheist and total hate for any religion prevents blinds him from seeing it. He is incapable of using any logic or reasoning in a situation where he cannot be impartial. God says:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَأَنذَرْتَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تُنذِرْهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ
[2:6] As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

خَتَمَ اللّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ
[2:7] Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 26^th, 2008 at 12:12am:


It's true that Islam came to Indonesia via trade but also with a little bit of the sword. The ruling empire in Java and Sumatra at the time was the Hindu Majapahit Empire. They battled with the Sultanate of Malacca for many years before finally being driven back to the east by the Sultanate of Demak. They went back as far as what is now Bali. Only then was the conversion of the Javanese to Islam complete. You can visit the great and magnificant Hindu monument called Prambanan near Yogyakarta.

acid, mozza,

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As Muslims, we are part of the "Ummah". The Ummah is the global community of Muslims. We are one with them, and when we speak of "our lands" we speak of the lands of the Muslim Ummah, as Muhammad (pbuh) said "The Muslim Ummah is unique, her lands are one". Now as an individual I am an Australian citizen, and my loyalties are with Australia.

I think non-Muslims don't like this idea, because it's like we serve two masters or we have divided loyalties, and I think it might even be a little jealousy, because you don't have another entity to belong to. I am making this judgement not out of ignorance, but remembering back to how I used to feel when I first encountered Muslims many years ago.

That's fine, I can understand your hostility or "miffness" to such an idea, what I can't understand is how Westerners (yes mass generalisation we know) cannot accept it from Muslims, but from Jews for instance it's no problem at all. Look at groups like AIPAC in the US, and how pathetically subservient US politicians are to it and to the idea of Zionism and Jewish loyalties to Israel. In fact it's almost arrived to the point that US Christians are more attached to Israel (A foreign country isn't it??) than US Jews are. When the Israeli Prime Minister arrives in the US, his first call of business is always the Zionist Christians, not the Zionist Jews. Did anyone see Obama's address to AIPAC recently? He was like a little boy begging them for acceptance and stating his undivided support to the maintanence of Israel. Jews here in Australia have this kind of affiliation with Israel also, there is for instance AIJAC, the Australian Israeli Jewish Affairs Council, which have a similar, albeit lower profile, role in Australia to what AIPAC has in the US, I don't see mozza and co. jumping up and down and ranting and raving about their divided loyalties.

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I was speaking about his lack of hostility to other minority groups that campaign to have their voice heard in the Australian political landscape. Nothing to do with Christians... I think you got your wires crossed there Acid.

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Completely irrelevant what happened in the internal situation of the country after Islam arrived. The simple fact is not a single armed Muslim soldier came to bring Islam to Indonesia, it was conquered by the hearts and minds of the people accepting Islam.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 26^th, 2008 at 7:50am:


I don't think I am.... you called him a bigot towards Muslims. I'm saying that he is equally a bigot (using your words) towards Islam and Christianity. I believe that if we were discussing the Exclusive Brethrens or the Mormons you'll find that he will be equally as vocal. He seems to show contempt to all or most religions (particularly what he calls "nutcase" ones).

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 26^th, 2008 at 7:50am:


No. Trade came down as far as Malaya and Sumatra and the northwest tip of Java. The locals converted to Islam. The two regions became the Sultanate of Malacca (on the Malaya side) and the Sultanate of Demak (on the Sumatra side). Their two Muslims forces fought the Majapahit Empire and won. Only after the defeat of the Empire was Islam allowed to spread throughout the rest of what is now Indonesia.