Australian Politics Forum - How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??

abu_rashid

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #120 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 6:07pm

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That is still nothing to do with race Abu

It may not necessarily be racially based, but it is definitely xenophobic. Mozza quite clearly considers Muslims to be non-Australians, who have no right to a say in this country. Either that, or he's an ultra-conservative who doesn't believe anyone at all should be allowed to change anything in the country whatsoever, but just hasn't expressed his view regarding this towards non-Muslims.. I doubt it though, the first suggestion sounds a lot more plausible.

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I don't know about you, but I think the future is important.

I didn't state the future is unimportant, what I meant is that you can't judge Muslims on what they may or may not do in the future. Again, why do you not apply the same standard to non-Muslim Australians. For instance to Jews, who have a *well established* instutution in their culture called Aliyah, in which Jews living outside of Israel make the inevitable "spiritual/cultural move to Israel".

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Yes. They are English, American, Canadian etc.

And before they moved, what were they? They were just normal Aussies right? why is it diferent in your eyes for Muslims then? Why can't you apply the same standards for all Australian citizens, why must you continually single out Muslims?

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It's kind of a moot point if they want to leave anyway.

You can't judge every single individual Muslim on that basis. You can't decide how you'll treat individuals, unless you admit you are a Xenophobe.

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Strawman.

I'm starting to think maybe I misunderstood the term strawman. I wasn't aware it was just a word you used when you were unable, or unwilling to address your opponents arguments.

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I was referring to taking up arms on behalf of another nation. Your response trivialises the issue, rather than actually responding to it. Your religion calls upon you to commit treason. Can you blame people for being suspicious?

Many Jewish Australians serve in the IDF and many others also donate to militant settler organisations, I don't see you, nor any other Australian complaining about that, nor even thinking there's anything wrong with it. Again double standards. This can only lead one to believe you don't sincerely have a problem with such a situation, you just have a problem with Islam and Muslims.

Islam does not ask me to commit treason, in fact I am bound, due to contract of citizenship with the Australian government, to uphold my responsibilities under Australian law, unless they cause me to contravene Islamic law. If you check the Talmud, you'll find that Jews are not bound by any such obligations.

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That's not the impression Abu gave.

Abu meen? Sorry Arabic joke. Abu means "his father", and I just asked you "who's father?".

In case you had forgotten I *am* Abu Rashid and I didn't give any other impression, that I'm aware of. I think Acid also mentioned somewhere that the Princes of those states themselves embraced Islam.

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freediver

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #121 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 6:32pm

It may not necessarily be racially based

So don't call it racism when it isn't.

Mozza quite clearly considers Muslims to be non-Australians

No he doesn't.

what I meant is that you can't judge Muslims on what they may or may not do in the future

Yes you can, and you should.

For instance to Jews, who have a *well established* instutution in their culture called Aliyah, in which Jews living outside of Israel make the inevitable "spiritual/cultural move to Israel".

Because it isn't well established as you imply. It is certainly not part of Jewish doctrine, as it is with Islam.

And before they moved, what were they? They were just normal Aussies right? why is it diferent in your eyes for Muslims then?

It isn't any different. When they decided they weren't Aussies any more, they stopped being Aussies. If they decided to take up arms against Australia, they would be traitors, regardless of their motivation.

You can't decide how you'll treat individuals, unless you admit you are a Xenophobe.

That doesn't make any sense.

I'm starting to think maybe I misunderstood the term strawman. I wasn't aware it was just a word you used when you were unable, or unwilling to address your opponents arguments.

But I did do that.

I don't see you, nor any other Australian complaining about that

Then you aren't looking very hard. Perhaps you don't see what doesn't fit into the stereoptype you are building.

Islam does not ask me to commit treason, in fact I am bound, due to contract of citizenship with the Australian government, to uphold my responsibilities under Australian law, unless they cause me to contravene Islamic law.

Nice attempt at dodging the point. So, it does ask you to commit treason, but not randomly, only as per Islamic law. That is, it would command you to take up arms on behalf of another nation, if that nation arises.

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abu_rashid

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #122 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:14pm

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So don't call it racism when it isn't.

Racism and Xenophobia are virtually the same thing. Please address what I posted instead of just sidestepping everything. It really grows tiresome.

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No he doesn't.

Ok then if he doesn't believe Muslims are non-Australians, then the only other option is that he is an ultra-conservative who believe no change ever should be allowed in Australia....

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Yes you can, and you should.

Unless you're going to admit to being a fortune teller, I'll just ignore that one.

What I meant to say was, acting upon prognostications about what people may or may not do in the future isn't the practise of normal sane rational human beings.

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Because it isn't well established as you imply. It is certainly not part of Jewish doctrine, as it is with Islam.

I very much doubt you've even looked into it to know.

Here's some light reading for you:

Zionist Federation of Australia
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Aliyah is the highest ideal of Zionism. Literally ‘going up’, Aliyah is the term used to describe the process of moving to Israel, for when one moves to Israel, one goes up in terms of Jewish practice and Jewish experience...
Of these, about 10,000 are Australians who have been helped in their Aliyah process by the ZFA Aliyah Department and by the ZFA Israel Office, all of which have been set up to ensure that Australia continues to have one of the highest Aliyah rates (per capita) in the Western World.

Bnei Akiva Melbourne
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In the long term, the only answer to these evils, and for insuring our future, is to create a national home and a spiritual center for the Jewish people. This can only succeed in Eretz Yisrael, our historic homeland....
The next stage is a special option will be made available to volunteer for a two month period of individual volunteering by choosing your own scheme according to the following options:
Marva – a course in the Israeli Army, living and training as an Israeli soldier would...
Netivot Australia 2007 is designed to provide the students with an uplifting and exciting four months in an Isra eli High School and Ulpana, integrated with their peers but following a suitable and relevant course of study. During this period they will be able to visit a wide range of usual and unusual locations, have meaningful Mifgashim with their Isra eli peers, volunteer in a number of settings, undertake a different Israel experience and confront some of the burning issues of the day. We hope that Netivot will further build your child's deep understanding and lifelong romance with the Jewish land.

-----

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It isn't any different. When they decided they weren't Aussies any more, they stopped being Aussies. If they decided to take up arms against Australia, they would be traitors, regardless of their motivation.

Ok, but before they migrated, they were full Aussies right? And they had a right to have a say in how Australia functions right?

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Nice attempt at dodging the point. So, it does ask you to commit treason, but not randomly, only as per Islamic law. That is, it would command you to take up arms on behalf of another nation, if that nation arises.

It's not dodging at all, if anyone is dodging questions it's you. It's clear that many Australian Jews have *ALREADY* made Aliyah and serve in a foreign military (one that does a lot of really nasty stuff, mind you) in fact they're doing it on youth camps (see my above link), yet all you wanna do is argue about hypothetical situations of what Muslims might or might not do concerning future events that might not even eventuate for decades to come, or longer.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #123 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:17pm btw freediver, just requesting again, can you please use the quote tags instead of the italic tags when quoting other's text, makes it so much easier to read, and makes your posts just a tiny little bit less frustrating
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freediver

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #124 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:23pm

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Racism and Xenophobia are virtually the same thing.

What you claimed was racism is not racism. You could try to argue it is xenophobia, but only because xenophobia and racism are not the same thing.

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Please address what I posted instead of just sidestepping everything.

I did address what you posted. You claimed it was racism. It isn't. You claimed it was xenophobia instead when you realised it wasn't racism. But then you claimed that because racism and xenophobia are similar then it must also be racism. It is an absurd twist of logic.

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Ok then if he doesn't believe Muslims are non-Australians, then the only other option is that he is an ultra-conservative who believe no change ever should be allowed in Australia....

This is a false dichotomoy. You won't get anywhere in dialogue if you continue to build these absurd caricatures of your opponents.

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Unless you're going to admit to being a fortune teller, I'll just ignore that one.

It has nothing to do with predicting when or if it will actually happen. I have been framing my criticisms as what you would do if the foreign nation arose. This is a valid criticism of Islam, because Islam commands you to commit treason if the appropriate conditions arise.

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Here's some light reading for you:

I thought we were discusisng jews, not zionists? Or do you equate them?

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jordan484

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #125 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:29pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:17pm:

btw freediver, just requesting again, can you please use the quote tags instead of the italic tags when quoting other's text, makes it so much easier to read, and makes your posts just a tiny little bit less frustrating

Yeah, it's just SOOOOOOOOO difficult to tell the difference between italics and normal text.

Roll Eyes

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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #126 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:30pm The vast majority of Jews are Zionist, this is a fact. I never said all are, and in fact I've posted about anti-Zionist Jews here before. Enjoy the light reading.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51155 At my desk.	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #127 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:32pm Quote: The vast majority of Jews are Zionist, this is a fact. What percentage of Australian jews are zionists?
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abu_rashid

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #128 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:34pm

jordan,

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Yeah, it's just SOOOOOOOOO difficult to tell the difference between italics and normal text.

It's certainly much easier to tell the difference between a block quote and normal text, and at only the expense of moving your mouse an extra 12 or so pixels.

Does it bother you or something that I requested that? Remember I'm a Muslim, I come to other people's countries/forums and force them to accomodate me, that's just my modus operandi

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abu_rashid

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #129 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:38pm

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What percentage of Australian jews are zionists?

Would probably be much easier to ask what % aren't.

I've never come across a non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jewish group in Australia. There's heaps of very Zionist ones though. So if they do exist here, which I'm sure they do, they're not very vocal.

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jordan484

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #130 - Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:41pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 30^th, 2008 at 7:34pm:

jordan,

Quote:

Yeah, it's just SOOOOOOOOO difficult to tell the difference between italics and normal text.

It's certainly much easier to tell the difference between a block quote and normal text, and at only the expense of moving your mouse an extra 12 or so pixels.

Does it bother you or something that I requested that? Remember I'm a Muslim, I come to other people's countries/forums and force them to accomodate me, that's just my modus operandi

No. It doesn't bother me. I think it's nit picking, but it doesn't bother me.

And yes, you're right about the rest, but you forgot, you assume things that are incorrect......yet bitch when others do the same. Hypocrite.

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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins

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freediver

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #131 - Jul 31^st, 2008 at 3:02pm

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Would probably be much easier to ask what % aren't.

OK. What percent aren't? I can handle the math from there.

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I've never come across a non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jewish group in Australia.

It's not the sort of thing people join clubs over. It's like joining a club that doesn't go fishing.

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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #132 - Jul 31^st, 2008 at 3:11pm Now you are being mean FD, poor abu will be searching the net for non-fishing clubs now. You are tenacious in your arguments, it is quite fun to watch.
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Acid Monkey Gold Member Offline Goth Father Posts: 1064 EU Gender:	Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ?? Reply #133 - Jul 31^st, 2008 at 3:12pm This goes back to the comment by Malik (which I may have misinterpreted) that the majority of Jews are anti Zionists - which initially surprised me.
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abu_rashid

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Re: How to keep muslim terrorists from Aussie ??
Reply #134 - Jul 31^st, 2008 at 3:36pm

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It's not the sort of thing people join clubs over. It's like joining a club that doesn't go fishing.

That might hold for non-Zionists, but not anti-Zionists. Normally anti-Zionist Jews are fairly loud, as they don't like to be associated with the atrocities that Zionism has been responsible for.

Strange though that when it comes to Muslims, it's compulsory upon us to stand up and denounce any support for certain things. Not enough for us just to be non-fishers.

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OK. What percent aren't? I can handle the math from there.

Well since pretty much all Jewish organisations in Australia are overtly Zionist, I think it's safe to say the majority of Australian Jews are Zionist.

Which I'm sure you're going to reject, but then again though I knew that from the start, not to worry.

Acid,

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This goes back to the comment by Malik (which I may have misinterpreted) that the majority of Jews are anti Zionists - which initially surprised me.

Didn't we already go through this? What he was referring to was Palestinian Jews during the initial period of mass Zionist immigration into Palestine.

So he was talking about a specific time period, which was quite short, and only a tiny little minority of Jews (probably far less than 1%), but the significance of it was that they were the Jews who were native inhabitants of the Palestine.

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