What if your mother isn't alive any more? Where should you go back to then?

One thing that seems to be missing from this debate is an acknowledgment of the different biological reality back then. People did grow up quicker, not just emotionally, but also physically. They were not as well nourished and suffered from diseases that today are easily preventable. As a result they hit puberty earlier. They had children earlier. They were usually dead well before they turned forty. It was a tough life. Trying to apply modern standards regarding minimum ages is stupid, but that doesn't have to mean everyone mistreated their kids back then. Having sex with a 12 year old back then and a 12 year old today are completely different things.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2008 at 1:35pm:

They wouldn't need to, there are always enough women for the men. Don't forget that in Islam a man can marry a Christian or a Jewish woman.

If you have a mistress in addition to having your wife, you can sleep with her and do whatever you want but she gets no such rights or anything else if you divorce or die. That seems far more like objectifying a woman than having more than one wife

Malik, you are trying to solve one problem by creating an even bigger problem. Polygamy won't stop men cheating on their first wife, it will jsut give them an extra incentive or excuse to do so. It is a piss poor excuse for polygamy. It will not guarantee that men marry their mistresses. It will make cheating more common, not less. If a woman tries to break up a marraige she should not be given any rights. We want to discourage women from trying to seduce married men, not reward them. You don't reduce immoral behaviour by encouraging it legally. Would you support the legalisation of prostitution so that prostitutes get better protection?

There are cultural problems in finding a wife these days.

So fix those problems. Don't create new ones.

But there will still be more women than there are marriage worthy men.

Yes, but are those women marriage worthy? Why are men from your/that culture so unworthy?

Don't forget that in Islam a man can marry a Christian or a Jewish woman.

So Muslim women cannot marry non-muslim men, but the men are free to do so? That's just wrong Malik. You should grant your women equal rights instead. And it does not solve the problem of running out of women, unless you think that non-muslim men don't count. You are trying to impose this rule on a secular society. Arguing that it is good for muslim men at the expense of non muslim men does not help help your case. Why you think it does is beyond me. It suggests a far more fundamental problem. Rather than solving your problems, you seem to be trying to impose them on the rest of society.

Not at all, I'm happy living in Australia and I am very patriotic in my love for this country. But I think there are always ways in which we can improve it.

That doesn't answer the question Malik. Are you opposed to living in a secular state or not? If you vote against something, that means you are opposed to it. Or are you arguing that you are in favour, but will change your mind once others support it? That is a deception Malik. If you oppose something, you should be honest about it, not pretend you support it up until you get the chance to change it. You are lying to the broader society to cover up objectionable views. You are trying to undermine our society behind our backs.

We don't make Muslim women wear tents, the criteria is cover everything except the hands and the face..

Sorry, tents with three holes.

providing it's not too tight it's fine.

I doubt very much that the swimsuit you showed would pass the 'not too tight' test. Otherwise why do you make your women wear tents in summer?

I disagree, I think objectifying women sexually as they do on billboards causes great harm. And I believe that I demonstrated that in the articles I posted on the affects it has on young girls..

There are two separate issues here Malik. Nudity or using sex in advertising, and sexualisation of women and the problems you described do not necessarily go hand in hand. They do in many English speaking countries, but that has a lot to do with Queen victoria who bought into this idea that women should be covered up because they are lumps of flesh and men are cats. You drew a very vague link. You did not show that not forcing your women to wear tents leads to their objectification. I would say it is the opposite. Making your women wear tents is what leads to them being treated as objects. Now in order to free your women from this burden you will have to go through a long and painful process of teaching your men to control their urges when they catch a glimpse of an ankle.

How did I hint that it's a woman who dresses in provocative clothins fault if she gets raped?

By implying there is something wrong with women dressing how they want.

Part of that I agree with, forcing women to wear niqaabs and bukhas is unnatrual.

Forcing women to wear tents (with three holes) is unnatural.

Abu - hi, how are you going ?


"But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.
The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

1 corinthians 7: 2-4


In every time is is singular terms used. One husband, one wife.

sprint,

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Yes it does, but it still doesn't clearly forbid polygamy, and many Christians have continued to practise polygamy, not just LDS.

freediver,

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I'm talking more about the opposition amongst the community, than the position of the law/government.

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That's a gross generalisation. Most Muslim girls who cover, do so because of their own personal religious convictions, not because of force from others. Your claim to the opposite only serves to belittle those women and to suggest they don't have minds of their own. Covering by women for instance is quite widespread in Muslim communities in the West, and in many cases, you'll find the mother of the family doesn't cover (due to the social situation in the Muslim world during their time) whilst their daughters who've grow up in the Western countries cover, out of their own choice. This is very common, yet according to your estimation these women are just mindless fools who blindly follow others and can't think for themselves?

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Perhaps on beaches, that's about it. In a normal city street, you'd still be arrested for it.

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This is just clearly wrong. Are you suggesting that before Queen Victoria, subjects of the British empire used to wander around half naked?

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It quite clearly is. The imagery associated with it all is very sexual, and you'd have to be quite blind not to notice, or you deliberately don't want to admit it. Just consider the fact that generally those women who strut around half naked in public, often wear much more modest clothing at home, and also consider the fact that in the coldest of temperatures, we see them prancing around in mini skirts, whilst I'm sitting there in my thermals, and thick demin jeans and a Canadian hiking top, with gloves and beanie and scarf on, almost dying from hyperthermia. It's got nothing to do with comfort or just what they're used to, these women, I'm sure, suffer terribly for this. It is something that's done with a very deliberate intention. Now either they're in training to ascend Everest or my obversation is correct.

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This is the biggest cop out. You must be a dirty old man if you think it's sexualisation. Even most women know it is sexualisation, and you can understand this from their comments when they observe other women walking around in today's "latest fashions". In fact it's the complete other way 'round. Dirty old men would be trying to normalise this dressing behaviour and make it just sound like it's nothing because they enjoy having this all around them in society.

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On the contrary, I have a concept of them, I just don't agree with them, most of the time. And this predates my embracing of Islam, and perhaps probably led to it. Australian values are nothing unique, they're just a pathetic imitation of the American values that are spoonfed to us on TV as kids.

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That alone should be reason enough for you to join our side

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As mentioned above, I really don't think it's about feeling good and natural. If this were the case, then we'd see it all summer, but in winter they'd be covering, but just isn't the case. Which indicates quite strongly, there's something else to it.

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Actually, wouldn't it be more like: When dirty old men run the society, the freedom to show off the female body is going to be encouraged?

I'm talking more about the opposition amongst the community, than the position of the law/government.

If you want to shack up with two women, I don't care. There have been front page articles recently about the muslim community calling for dialogue regarding legal recognition of polygamous marriages.

Most Muslim girls who cover, do so because of their own personal religious convictions, not because of force from others. Your claim to the opposite only serves to belittle those women and to suggest they don't have minds of their own.

No it doesn't. I did not say all women who cover up do so because they are forced to. The vast majority of instances where women are denied the choice legally are where they are required to cover up. I am all for women who choose to cover up, just I I will support a woman who freely chooses not to.

This is very common, yet according to your estimation these women are just mindless fools who blindly follow others and can't think for themselves?

That is nothing at all like what I said.

This is just clearly wrong. Are you suggesting that before Queen Victoria, subjects of the British empire used to wander around half naked?

No. Maybe you aren't aware, but England is cold. However, they were free to do so and they took up this option on a regular basis when given the chance, just as much of mainland Europe still does today, without it turning into some kind of orgy.

It quite clearly is. The imagery associated with it all is very sexual.

We are talking about real people people going nude, not women in advertising who are always clothed (at least in Australia).

Just consider the fact that generally those women who strut around half naked in public

They are not naked. Most people look far better with clothes on.

This is the biggest cop out. You must be a dirty old man if you think it's sexualisation.

It is not a copout. Obviously if it is cold then a woman would need a strong motive to go around scantily clad. But once it warms up it is natural for the clothes to come off. You are picking annd choosing extreme and unrepresentative examples. As for me being a dirty old man because I think that someone who can only see scantily clad women as sexual objects is a dirty old man, you are stretching the logic there.

Even most women know it is sexualisation,

Again, you are misrepresenting it. The fashion industry does not own nudity. Some people will always sexualise women, whether they are totally naked or wearing a tent. This does not mean that everyone who chooses to nude up or wear less is a victim of the fashion industry.

As mentioned above, I really don't think it's about feeling good and natural.

That is because you falsely equated the fashion idnustry with nudism and liberation. The fashion industry does not sell nudism, it sells clothes.

If this were the case, then we'd see it all summer, but in winter they'd be covering, but just isn't the case.

But that is the case. Only a small minority of women wear the same clothes outside all year round. The vast majority of us adjust our clothes to suit the conditions. The fact that some women choose to wear summer clothes in winter is no excuse to force all women to wear tents in summer.

Actually, wouldn't it be more like: When dirty old men run the society, the freedom to show off the female body is going to be encouraged?

No, because when women are free to choose, they support freedom to choose. The thing about those dirty old men is that they inevitably become jealous and want to hide their women from all the other dirty old men. That's how the cycle of objectification of women begins. Most dirty old men are hypocrits. They will force their own daughters to cover up. Once you force a woman to cover up, you reinforce the notion that she is a sex object and that other men cannot be trusted around them.

Men can be trusted, provided they are taught that women are not sex objects. You cannot teach a young man that women are not sex objects while also forcing them to cover up. All you can do is create rules about how you treat the sex objects, which is how it works in all places where women are compelled to cover up.

freediver,

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You may not care, and I'm sure some other Australians couldn't care less either, but a lot of them do, and have voiced opposition to it. Also, as members of Australian society, don't Muslims have a right to lobby for reognition under the law for such things? Isn't this what a free and democratic society is all about?

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There's only 1 country in the world that I know of where women are required by law to cover up, and that is Saudi Arabia. In several Muslim countries, due to Western pressure, it's actually forbidden for women to cover their hair (in some circumstances), Tunisia and Turkey being two examples. The vast majority of cases of women being forced into wearing certain attire is actually unIslamic governments (France, Tunisia, Turkey etc.) forcing women to uncover their hair, not the other way 'round. If you were indeed a fair and unbiased proponent of Women's rights, then you'd be pushing for the rights of those Muslim women who are being forced to uncover what they don't want to, I should think.

Most Arab/Muslim countries are seeing a resurgence in the desire of women to cover their hair, and follow Islamic dress standards, compared with thew 1950-1990 period in which they were besotted with the culture of the West, and followed Western dress standards. I've personally seen cases where men forbid their daughters from going outside covered and ostracise them for it. This idea of oppressed veiled women is just nonsense, and belongs in the fiction section of Angus & Robertson, which is where most accounts of it have originated from.

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Can you provide some evidence or documentation about this? I've never read anything about the pre-Victorian hedonism of the British. Unless of course you wanna go back even before Christian times?

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Two sides of the same coin. The little girls grow up seeing the images of men lusting after the half naked women on the billboards and they desire that attention for themselves.

And come on, I  dunno which part of Australia you live in, but in my city, we've had plenty of billboards that show completely naked women, stretched out on the bonnets of cars, bathing in giant ice creams, laying on mattresses massaging skin coloured moisturisers into their bare breasts etc.

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Without women and the appeal of their nakedness or semi-nakedness, there'd be no advertising industry, and I think you know that, you just don't want to admit it. It is a topic of discussion amongst feminists and other sectors of society, not just Muslims.

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Clothes draped on half naked bodies. By your reasoning, the fashion industry should be booming in the Muslim countries, as there's less nudity and more clothes... Skewed logic if you ask me.

The fashion industry is about selling something appealing. It's about "looking good" and you can't look good without looking enticing, this is a simple fact. If you want to continue to deny it for the sake of argument, be my guest.

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Although I will admit it's far worse in summer, there's still a lot of women wearing really revealing stuff all year 'round. I often am amazed at how they do it, since I'm freezing my extremities off.

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This is a false argument, since Islam doesn't claim women should only cover when weather conditions dictate it. Islam has a certain level of public decency for men and women all year 'round, which we believe is necessary to produce a modest and chaste society. I'm quite well aware you don't share that belief, that's your choice. But the facts tend to indicate that societies where sexual imagery is flooded into people's minds tend to have the least respect for women. Growing up as an average Aussie lad, I saw first hand how the males in this society perceive women, as nothing but pieces of meat. I don't need to bring out the terminology, which we both know is quite rampant in Australian society for referring to females. This has also been recognised as a major problem in the professional sporting community, where several high profile cases have highlighted that we have produced a culture that fundamentally disrespects women as human beings.

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Actually most dirty old men appear to be quite proud of their daughters walking around in next to nothing. Having worked in the retail industry for the past 7 or 8 years,  I've seen a lot of this. I don't think what you've stated is true at all.