helian - i feel the "turn the other cheek" quote is intended for individuals.
ie, can't offer someones elses cheek, only your own.


I have seen a list of bible contradictions, then a list of arguments to refute them.
When i have read the bible myself, have not noticed contradictions or the like.
feel free to post any.

Not sure what you mean there.
If it was your child, it is up to your child.

Have heard of the descent through Joseph, not Mary.
Since Joseph was not Jesuss dad, is his decsendancy given if so why ??
There are two geneologies given. I have seen that.
One Josephs, one Marys, was what I was told.

But look, suppose you will run through many contradictions till you find one I agree with .
Then you can say "So, therefore christianity is a hoax."
Lets just say, there is an apparent contradiction in the NT somewhere I agree IS a contradiction.
I'm ok to presume that scenario.

But, feel free to ask otherwise.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 12:13am:

i didnt miss that phrase at all, how could your child have the choice to turn the other cheek if they wish as you mentioned if its the law to do so?

being the law, shouldn't it be automatically applicable then without the need to consult them?

or are you telling me that religious law no longer applies, and that anarchy would reign from the day jesus came?

ps. i asked you what the west should have done after 9/11.. because christian politics rules the US..

so if you were the president, what would you have done?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:24pm:

No, Its referring to the time of Moses, when the people around him were told to sacrifice a cow they kept asking questions as a means to get out of the task. Nothing like you mentioned.


Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:24pm:


You really like to miss out on a whole lot of the verses you paste don't you sprint?

005.033
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

005.034
Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

These verses are referring to warfare, in particular to the punishment handed out to people who commit atrocities.

This can also be the punishment for rapists.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:24pm:


Again, your taking it out of context. You'd be a great Wahabi mate because they cant see context either.

002.190
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.


002.191
And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

002.192
But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

002.193
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Sprint these verses are referring to fighting the Pagans that fought against the Muslims, those who drove the Muslims from their homes and stole all of their wealth. The Muslims were given the order after many years of oppression to fight back against the pagans and establish monotheism in the holy land, and ridding it from idolatry. In it, it also mentions that if the Pagans stop fighting the Muslims, to give them peace and a truce, of which the Muslims did. But the pagans broke the truce and no less than a year later did the Muslims take Mecca. But they took it without their armies fighting with each other, Muhammad forgave all of the idol worshippers who then became Muslims and the Idols were all broken.

If you compare that with how the Christians took Jerusalem and slaughtered more than 100,000 men women and children you'd really see who are the blood thirsty ones.
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:24pm:

Again, you are missing out key parts to the verses you put.
008.012
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

This verse is relating to one of the battles the Muslims fought, they were greatly outnumbered by the Pagan Quraish and God sent down angels to fight against the Quraish and sent fear into their hearts which caused them to flee the battlefield.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:24pm:

Sprint I searched Bukhari for this and couldn't find it. Bukhari's referencing isn't like you put up there, have you got a better reference?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 30^th, 2008 at 10:24pm:

Sprint, were not other prophets of the bible, peace be upon them all ordered by God Himself to fight against idolatry and oppression?

malik - what is the koran referring to the torah for ?
muslims are not jews.  You have given no references to cows being scarificed.

back to the question what is it saying, dont query ??



so anyone who disagrees with mohammad is to be cut up or crucified ?
This is about a 700 year retracement from jesus teachings.


Again, says fighting is the way to go.
Agan a huge step backwards from prior teachings and a quite unspiritual life.


there were people in the old test who made war.
You have stepped backwards many centuries.
it is a false argument to say "they did it, so we can."



Question it yourself, do not blindly believe.
hang about, no, the koran says do not query or you may become a disbeliever.

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2008 at 9:54am:

That's an interesting question, because sprint either has to admit that he is deliberately taking things out of context in an attempt to misrepresent Islam or he has to admit that he actually hasn't studied the Qur'an himself but instead has to get all of these quotes off of anti Islam sites.

Which one is it Sprint?

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2008 at 9:48pm:

Well FD, it depends really on how you define those particular Jews and Christians actually?

If we define them as those people, around the prophets pbut who followed the revelation that they were taught then of course. They are by definition Muslims because the prophets taught them the message.

If you mean just those Jews who were Jews only by ethnicity and didn't practice what their prophets taught them then no. Ethnicity doesn't guarantee anyone a place in heaven.

If you're referring to the Christians and Jews of today who we believe follow a message that has been corrupted over time by those who wish to use it for their own good then they possibly would go to heaven, especially if they are sincere in their belief and have not learnt better and not come across Islam, which is the finality of the revelation. Regarding this, we know that God is the Most Merciful so I will not speak for Him, He forgives infinitely. Providing one has sincerety in their actions in trying to worship their creator as He intended them to I wouldn't doubt the possibility that he'd forgive them worshipping him if they didn't know the right way.

We don't have to go door to door to preach Islam, people are running to Islam in droves, especially after 9/11.. Such a sad event sparked such curiosity in Islam and I now have many friends who became Muslim post 9/11 after really researching into the misconceptions and then finding the facts about Islam. I myself became Muslim about 6 months before 9/11.

Others see the example of a good Muslim, one who lives according to the Qur'an and Sunnah. I've found many people are attracted to the qualities of a good Muslim, sadly there aren't too many good examples these days with those Muslims who stick to tribalism, nationalism and culturalism. Those who lost their identities as Muslims through wanting to please others and even worse, those who make Islam look bad by committing horrific crimes which are against Islam.

It's not really surprising though, most of those people who commit such crimes are uneducated and cannot even read, speak, understand and write the language of the Qur'an, classical Arabic or Fus'ha. In fact, perhaps only 20% of Arabs can actually speak that, with the rest speaking a dialect of Arabic which doesn't allow them to understand the full meaning, many are uneducated, poor and find a teacher in their area who prays on youth who are in that situation and seeking something better, so they promise them the heavens and the earth if they'll murder in the name of Islam. Their teachers take many teachings out of context and their students blindly follow them without studying for themselves. This is much the same as many Christian cults, but of course one would never say that Christianity is responsible, only peoples lack of understanding of Christianity.

In my opinion, doing that is tantamount to worshipping their teacher, because it's ones obligation to check the facts and make sure the teacher is telling the truth. Perhaps the most serious crime one could commit.

A good Muslims preaching is in the physical example he or she sets for those around them. Their conduct, speech, kindness, loyalty, mercy, altruism and honorability is the personification of not only preaching, but preaching through their example.

In my opinion, doing that is tantamount to worshipping their teacher, because it's ones obligation to check the facts and make sure the teacher is telling the truth. Perhaps the most serious crime one could commit.

Good point. I share that view, but it's interesting that I've never heard a Christian express it, as far as I recall. They tend to focus more on "trust God's word, ignore human judgement" type stuff. I forget the exact quote. Though many self described Christians mistrust the authenticity of the Bible and ascribe human frailty to it, which is a similar concept I guess.

I'll also add that it's not us who bring people to Islam, the truth is that you could never force anyone to wholeheartedly believe and love something if it was against their will. Only God guides people to the truth, if they are sincere in their search for truth and not arrogant in believing they have all the answers and pray for Guidance, then surely God will give it to them.

Interesting theory, but in the end someone has to knock on someone else's door.