Australian Politics Forum - What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences?

Ray_A

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Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences?
Reply #15 - Feb 19^th, 2008 at 2:07pm

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I can't prove there are no supernatural entities. I can't prove that there are no purple tea sets orbiting around Pluto for that matter.

This is an old chestnut comparison. One I've often heard from atheists. The invisible pink unicorn, etc. It tires me. You think I'm new to this?

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I'm just stating which hypothesis works for me.

Whatever floats your barge. Don't really even wish to debate the point if you feel happy, and secure that your hypothesis is "safe".

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Everybody is entitled to their hypotheses, and I reiterate that I have nothing against religion per se.

A hypothesis can evaporate in seconds, and if a material cause of NDEs is established, I will be thankful to science, because I have no dogmas to defend, religious or otherwise.

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"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them." &&&&--- Eric Hoffer. &&

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Musician35 Ex Member	Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences? Reply #16 - Feb 19^th, 2008 at 4:10pm The comparison might tire you, but that doesn't make the argument invalid. On a related subject, I think it would be very interesting to do a study on Ghost Sightings by Atheists. Now that would be a very brief thesis.
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Ray_A

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Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences?
Reply #17 - Feb 19^th, 2008 at 4:20pm

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The comparison might tire you, but that doesn't make the argument invalid.

On a related subject, I think it would be very interesting to do a study on Ghost Sightings by Atheists. Now that would be a very brief thesis.

Or, perhaps, NDEs by atheists. They are all on Kevin's website, which I earlier linked.

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Musician35 Ex Member	Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences? Reply #18 - Feb 27^th, 2008 at 12:17pm I almost drowned when I was in East Africa a few years ago, so I'd rather avoid the subject of NDE's.
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Acid Monkey

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Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences?
Reply #19 - Feb 29^th, 2008 at 4:36pm

I had NDE, twice. On both occasions I was hit by a car and I woke up in the ER. There was no light at the end of the tunnel etc. I simply have two time periods in my life where I didn't exist as far as my conciousness is concern.

As Kerry Packer was purported to have said "I've been to the otherside and back, and there's smacking nothing there." LOL.

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Ray_A

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Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences?
Reply #20 - Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 1:44pm

Acid Monkey wrote on Feb 29^th, 2008 at 4:36pm:

I had NDE, twice. On both occasions I was hit by a car and I woke up in the ER. There was no light at the end of the tunnel etc. I simply have two time periods in my life where I didn't exist as far as my conciousness is concern.

As Kerry Packer was purported to have said "I've been to the otherside and back, and there's smacking nothing there." LOL.

Of course it could all end in final nothingness - complete doom, non-existence. And we need do nothing but eat, drink, and be merry. Have all the sex you can, in all the places you can, with all the people you can, and consume large amounts of alcohol at endless parties, and don't forget to kill millions, like Pol Pot did, and eventually died peacefully in his sleep at an old age. What does it matter? There's no heretofore, and no hereafter - Packer proved that!

I like to think there is a larger purpose to life than what meets the eye, and I like to think that our lives do have meaning. NDEs seem to indicate this, too. That we are not just "ships passing in the night". I believe the universe has purpose, even if it seems self-destructive, at times. It's probably just refining the riff-raff it needs to purge, in the ultimate purpose. It goes back to the age-old unanswered question - why is there something rather than nothing? What's the point? The problem is that we really don't like the idea that there could be consequences for all of our actions, and that unpleasant thought is enough to settle for the idea that we cease to exist after death.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53190 At my desk.	Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences? Reply #21 - Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 4:06pm I think that an absence of consequences would be just as disturbing for some - justice, karma etc.
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Ray_A

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Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences?
Reply #22 - Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 4:52pm

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 4:06pm:

I think that an absence of consequences would be just as disturbing for some - justice, karma etc.

No doubt. But in my enclosed little fantasy world, I have seen real consequences occur. You don't reap apples if you plant banana seeds. If you lie, more often than not it will come back to you in negative consequences. A bloke named Richard Nixon knows all about this. And, of course, we all believe Bill Clinton, taking some liberal interpretations of what "sex" means. I really do think, however, in my fantasy world, that life itself metes out dire consequences for our actions, not necessarily based on human morality, but "natural consequences". I'm actually as much interested in logic as I am in spirituality. People don't end up in situations only because of chance, but choices going back a long way. You can't expect "divine intervention" for bad choices. If you buy a lemon, that's not the fault of the gods.

In most cases, I have thought this lack of justice, karma, as being somewhat impatient for immediate results. Perhaps Hitler escaped this in his lifetime, even if he put a bullet through his own head. Now, some 75 years after "Germany's liberator", we know what most decent folks think of the name "Adolf Hitler". And the Nazi skin-heads who carry on his "work" today will reap the same consequences.

I could be totally naive here. But I've seen this so effective in my own life, that I'm still open to the idea that justice will occur - and RATBAGS and liars and thieves will get their just reward. I believe there is a God. And I believe, ultimately, that there will be justice in life. To phrase it in offensive biblical terms: As you sow, so shall you reap. (No, I am not a Christian.)

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53190 At my desk.	Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences? Reply #23 - Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 5:47pm But bananas don't have seeds.
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Ray_A Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 334 Gender:	Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences? Reply #24 - Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 6:00pm freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 5:47pm: But bananas don't have seeds. Sorry to break your misinformation FD:
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Ray_A Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 334 Gender:	Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences? Reply #25 - Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 6:12pm They are seedless fruit, but every tree has seeds. From some Internet "dills": http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080209214653AAAhiuH Now - let's debate bananas! More interesting (I presume) than NDEs - at least some may think.
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mantra

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Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences?
Reply #26 - Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 6:14pm

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I could be totally naive here. But I've seen this so effective in my own life, that I'm still open to the idea that justice will occur - and RATBAGS and liars and thieves will get their just reward. I believe there is a God. And I believe, ultimately, that there will be justice in life. To phrase it in offensive biblical terms: As you sow, so shall you reap. (No, I am not a Christian.)

Your post was well articulated Ray. I hold similar views and have seen the results of justice or karma on those who have displayed no moral integrity. I have seen people who were extremely selfish end up with neurological diseases and others who have been cruel end up receiving a worse punishment themselves.

The folly of our youth often returns to haunt us and we should pass this onto our children to never deliberately hurt or exploit a weakness in another human being to gain an immoral or unlawful advantage. They will be paid back twofold or more.

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Ray_A

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Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences?
Reply #27 - Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 6:17pm

mantra wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 6:14pm:

The folly of our youth often returns to haunt us and we should pass this onto our children to never deliberately hurt or exploit a weakness in another human being to gain an immoral or unlawful advantage. They will be paid back tenfold or more.

From my own experience, mantra, I've slightly editied your post, in bold.

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mantra Gold Member Offline ozpolitic.com Posts: 10750 Gender:	Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences? Reply #28 - Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 6:21pm Actually I said tenfold originally - then changed it to twofold in case I was accused of exaggerating.
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Musician35

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Re: What Do You Think of Near-Dear Experiences?
Reply #29 - Mar 8^th, 2008 at 9:13am

Ray_A wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 6:17pm:

mantra wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2008 at 6:14pm:

The folly of our youth often returns to haunt us and we should pass this onto our children to never deliberately hurt or exploit a weakness in another human being to gain an immoral or unlawful advantage. They will be paid back tenfold or more.

From my own experience, mantra, I've slightly editied your post, in bold.

I have a lot of respect for Daoist or Taoist philosophy. That's why I hesitate to call myself an atheist, although I don't specifically believe in the traditional idea of a God.

Taoism states that words are just a sign to point to the non-conceptual ultimate reality, or the dao (Tao). The Dao is indefinable. It isn't God, but some call it 'the way'. All matter is basically a manifestation of the Ultimate Reality. It's the way things are. The nearest thing we have in Western philosophy is existentialism.

Taoist don't hold the position of good against evil; rather they see the interdependence of all dualities. So when one labels something as a good, one automatically creates evil. That is, all concepts necessarily are based on one aspect vs. another; if a concept were to have only one aspect, it would be nonsensical.

The reality of good and evil is that all actions contain some aspect of each. This is represented in the tai chi, which you may know as the yin-yang symbol. Any action would have some negative (yin) and some positive (yang) aspect to it. Taoists believe that nature is a continual balance between yin and yang, and that any attempt to go toward one extreme or the other will be ineffective, self-defeating, and short-lived. When people interfere with the natural balance by trying to impose their egoistic plans, they will not succeed; rather, the non-egoistic person allows nature to unfold, watching it ebb and flow from good to bad and back again.

What we see as good and bad are views from our own personal 'window' on the universe. What appears good from your window may appear bad from another. We are basically part of nature. In nature, the bird might eat the snake. It's good for the bird, but bad for the snake.

Ultimately it's all balanced. It's a view that is totally consistent with scientific observation, which is why I have a lot of respect for it.

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