Australian Politics Forum - Coalition condoned torture

IQSRLOW Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1618	Re: Coalition condoned torture Reply #45 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 6:21pm Nice edit to take out your personal attacks Mantra More obfuscation from you. How...predictable
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deepthought

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #46 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 6:25pm

Aussie wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 3:21pm:

The Howard Gvernment tried to pretend that there was no stolen generation, and aggressively resisted any "Sorry." What say ye about the Libs about face on that?

How is not saying sorry for something you did not do an injustice? However John Howard did express his regret that such a situation ever occurred, he actually acknowledged past injustices so I have no idea why you make the false claim he "tried to pretend that there was no stolen generation". He said

Quote:

I think it is an expression of a desire of all Australians to go forward, not to forget or ignore or fail to express sorrow or regret for the pain of the past. It is impossible to understand the difficulty and the reality of today and to move forward effectively without understanding and acknowledging the pain that was inflicted by the injustices of the past. And it is not possible, it is not possible for any of us, for any of us to reflect upon the desirability of moving forward without acknowledging the impact that European civilisation had on the indigenous people of this country and the cultures of the indigenous people.

He has nothing to say sorry for - he did nothing wrong.

Like I said to mantra saying it is so does not make it so - especially when I know you are wrong with your baseless hatred.

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deepthought

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #47 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 6:26pm

mantra wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 4:21pm:

Deepthought - obviously you haven't been keeping up to date politically with the problematic Howard cabinet, or maybe it's because like all Howard huggers, you are blind to the failings of the now defunct coalition.

Why not list all those injustices though mantra? I am well aware of political happenings which is why I am so puzzled that you make such false allegations of injustices.

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mantra

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #48 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 6:44pm

DT - the list would take forever. What would be quicker is for you to list the justices of the Howard government.

Just briefly - the compensation is going to be a worry, because along with Vivien Solon and Cornelia Rau, there are another 200 or so Australians who were illegally detained in immigration detention centres. No doubt they will have a case to plea.

We have the case of Haneef - used as a political pawn just prior to an election. The ramifications will be huge as no doubt he will seek compensation for lost wages and slander.

I have no sympathy for Hicks and Habib, but it appears Habib might have a case for compensation if he has an ASIO agent confirming his rendition to Egypt.

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deepthought

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #49 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 8:21pm

mantra wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 6:44pm:

DT - the list would take forever. What would be quicker is for you to list the justices of the Howard government.

Just briefly - the compensation is going to be a worry, because along with Vivien Solon and Cornelia Rau, there are another 200 or so Australians who were illegally detained in immigration detention centres. No doubt they will have a case to plea.

We have the case of Haneef - used as a political pawn just prior to an election. The ramifications will be huge as no doubt he will seek compensation for lost wages and slander.

I have no sympathy for Hicks and Habib, but it appears Habib might have a case for compensation if he has an ASIO agent confirming his rendition to Egypt.

It ain't up to me to list the justices, you're the one making the baseless claims about injustices. So let's look at the examples you give.

It seems we have two women who gave inadequate, insufficient or downright deceptive information to the immigration department who acted according to that information and (wrongly it transpired) deported them. Both the examples you give had peculiar beginnings with Vivien Solon apparently found seriously injured claiming she was Vivien Alvarez and was here on a spousal visa. Cornelia Rau, similarly, claimed she was a tourist from Munich and her name was both Anna Brotmeyer and Anna Schmidt.

What are immigration officials to do? Disbelieve everyone and investigate them? There are thousands of visa overstayers in Australia, how big do you want the public service to be? And your chums, the Liebor Party are reducing services so it can only worsen.

Incidentally mandatory detention was a legislative act of your mates - the Liebor Party. In detaining people the former coalition government was simply following the law created by its predecessors.

And both Habib and Hicks were arrested overseas - this is not Australian jurisdiction.

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IQSRLOW

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #50 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 8:36pm

How dare you bring facts into this witch hunt DT!

The faithful left will send out a posse to hunt you down for exposing facts which dispute their malicious lies and heartstring tugging balderdash that they have relied on so resiliently with the help of a leftist media.

It would seem that a percentage of the population have had it so good for so long that they are imperceptible to facts vs guilt ridden rhetoric.

Mantra is a prime example

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Aussie

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #51 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 8:37pm

Quote:

It seems we have two women who gave inadequate, insufficient or downright deceptive information to the immigration department who acted according to that information and (wrongly it transpired) deported them. Both the examples you give had peculiar beginnings with Vivien Solon apparently found seriously injured claiming she was Vivien Alvarez and was here on a spousal visa. Cornelia Rau, similarly, claimed she was a tourist from Munich and her name was both Anna Brotmeyer and Anna Schmidt

Yet, your Tin God, hayseed, apologised in both cases. Why would he do that, unless his Government's stooges buggered up?

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mantra

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #52 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 9:10pm

The fact is - no matter what the Howard lovers say - Ministers in the Liberal Party condoned torture - mental and physical. We only have to look back at the torture inflicted on POW's at Abu Grahib by US soldiers. At the time - I think it was Mike Kelly (not sure) brought this information to the attention of the then defence minister Robert Hill who was too gutless to make this information public. Howard at the time of course wouldn't have known anything about it because according to him, no-one told him anything.

Our government had an ethical duty to inform the US that this torture was unacceptable and not in accordance with the Geneva Conventions - but instead they turned a blind eye, until it reached the media. Then they played dumb.

Solon and Rau may have been mentally incapacitated, but nonetheless they were treated as sub-human and the procedures of deportation and incarceration were illegal even under the coalition. There have been plenty of others locked up in immigration detention centres who have stories of abuse and neglect and this is where the Rudd government will be forced to pay millions in compensation over the next few years to the victims.

Penance for the Howard years will be a heavy toll on future budgets.

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Aussie

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #53 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 9:19pm

Hey DT, what is Amanda raving on about here:

Quote:

Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone has pithily summed up Ms Alvarez Solon's history: "There's a woman who was clearly in need of help and who through, I think it's fair to say, no fault of her own ended up in an immigration detention facility and clearly didn't have the capacity to explain to people who she was. And that is a tragic situation."

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IQSRLOW

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #54 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 9:32pm

mantra wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 9:10pm:

The fact is - no matter what the Howard lovers say - Ministers in the Liberal Party condoned torture - mental and physical. We only have to look back at the torture inflicted on POW's at Abu Grahib by US soldiers. At the time - I think it was Mike Kelly (not sure) brought this information to the attention of the then defence minister Robert Hill who was too gutless to make this information public. Howard at the time of course wouldn't have known anything about it because according to him, no-one told him anything.

Our government had an ethical duty to inform the US that this torture was unacceptable and not in accordance with the Geneva Conventions - but instead they turned a blind eye, until it reached the media. Then they played dumb.

Fact are something you have shown you are not familiar with Mantra. In the words of your little bum buddy Aussie below...where's the proof that ministers had knowledge? A 'not sure' doesn't cut it and is just proof of another of your lies.

Quote:

Solon and Rau may have been mentally incapacitated, but nonetheless they were treated as sub-human and the procedures of deportation and incarceration were illegal even under the coalition. There have been plenty of others locked up in immigration detention centres who have stories of abuse and neglect and this is where the Rudd government will be forced to pay millions in compensation over the next few years to the victims.

Only because you litigious left wing nuts who insist on 'someone to blame' for everything while insisting on refusing personal responsibility. Thanks for bringing the main downfall of US society, the one that you despise soooo much with your venomous bile to Australian shores...US style litigation.

You morons only have yourselves to blame

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39657 Gender:	Re: Coalition condoned torture Reply #55 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 9:49pm For what? Answer in real, established terms, not your dream time poo.
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IQSRLOW Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1618	Re: Coalition condoned torture Reply #56 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 9:52pm where's the proof that ministers had knowledge? I'll be waiting for your answer first Commie
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52163 At my desk.	Re: Coalition condoned torture Reply #57 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 9:58pm I just had to delete a couple of posts from here. There is no need to make this personal.
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Aussie

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #58 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 10:04pm

Quote:

Only because you litigious left wing nuts who insist on 'someone to blame' for everything while insisting on refusing personal responsibility. Thanks for bringing the main downfall of US society, the one that you despise soooo much with your venomous bile to Australian shores...US style litigation.

You morons only have yourselves to blame

I have no idea how you can credibly introduce the USA, it's alleged downfall etc etc etc into this Debate.

So, in the Australian context, what do the morons have to blame themselves for?

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IQSRLOW

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #59 - Feb 2^nd, 2008 at 10:11pm

Someone walks into the authorities and tells them a fictious name and details, makes out that she's a foreigner with no visa - straight away you lefties are calling for millions of dollars worth of compo for her lying to the authorities.

It's not surprising- lefties are always after taxpayers dollars for doing nothing- a case like this furthers your cause.

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