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Coalition condoned torture (Read 15052 times)
freediver
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Coalition condoned torture
Dec 1st, 2007 at 2:32pm
 
Documents show PM knew of Habib torture

http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking-news/documents-show-pm-knew-of-habib-torture/2007/11/30/1196394618347.html

Declassified documents have revealed former prime minister John Howard and other senior politicians knew in 2002 of Mamdouh Habib's claims he was tortured in Egypt.

The former Guantanamo Bay detainee, who was arrested in Pakistan on terrorism suspicions in October 2001, is suing Nationwide News for defamation over an article which implied he made false claims about torture.

A government team visited Guantanamo Bay in May 2002 spent 12 hours with Mr Habib and 15 hours with fellow Australian detainee David Hicks.

Detainees were permitted only one shower a week and two exercise sessions of 15 minutes each, and were only chained to the floor in the interrogation room, the report said.

Their cells were lit 24 hours a day.

The report also details Mr Habib's allegations of torture in Egypt, where he said he was held for six months.

"He said he was tortured, water was dripped on his head and he was administered electric shocks over his body.

"Mr Habib said he was trussed upside down and his body beaten," the report said.

"He said he sustained broken ribs, two broken toes and bleeding from his penis."

"The captors made him listen to noises that resembled ... his wife being raped and his children beaten. He said he was placed neck-high in water for extended periods of time and not allowed to sleep.

"After about six months the torture stopped after a doctor told his captors that he would die."

He alleges he was interviewed by, or in the presence of, Australians under such conditions, a claim that forms the foundation for his compensation case against the government in the Federal Court.

The outcome of the defamation proceedings, and any evidence presented there, is likely to bear significantly on his compensation bid.

Habib also has said he was blindfolded and gagged before being drugged and put on a flight through Pakistan and Afghanistan to Cuba.

The welfare report makes urgent recommendations about public presentation of the team's findings, the first section of which is blacked out.

It also says consideration ought to be given to the "intelligence value" of letters from the detainees to their families.

"We imagine that their families might release the letter to the media," it said.

"You should note that a number of statements made by the detainees in the letters are not consistent with their comments during the interviews and we might need to be prepared to correct them publicly."

In court, two ASIO agents, codenamed Officer 2 and 3, gave evidence via videolink.

The video screens were turned so only the judge and legal counsel could see the officers' faces, and the Australian Government Solicitor was on hand to object to questions on national security grounds.

Officer 2 interviewed Mr Habib at Bankstown Mall as part of a 2000 intelligence brief, said he offered a "rare insight" into a certain mindset.

Wearing a combination of army camouflage gear and black clothing to the meeting, Mr Habib said Osama bin Laden was a "great leader."

"(Mr Habib said bin Laden) was defending the Muslim people from external aggression and he was in the heart of all Muslims," the officer said.

"He expressed views in support of and justifying what we would define as terrorist attacks."

He also assured him that Australia had "nothing to fear" from bin Laden ahead of the 2000 Sydney Olympics.

He praised the bombings of US embassies in East Africa, which he described as "justified acts of self-defence", and insisted the 1993 World Trade Centre bombers were innocent.

Officer 3 said Mr Habib admitted knowing convicted World Trade Centre conspirators Ibrahim Elgabrowny and Mahmoud Abouhalima from Egypt, and said they had been framed by the Jews, who hit the centre as an "insurance job".

Under cross-examination by Mr Habib's lawyer Clive Evatt, both ASIO officers agreed they would never interview someone who was under the influence of drugs, or who had their hands shackled to the floor.
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deepthought
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #1 - Dec 1st, 2007 at 7:34pm
 
Why do you always misrepresent the facts?

Your heading says the "Coalition condoned torture", and you have copied a headline which says "Documents show PM knew of Habib torture".

Yet the very first sentence contradicts you.  It says "Declassified documents have revealed former prime minister John Howard and other senior politicians knew in 2002 of Mamdouh Habib's claims he was tortured in Egypt".

Now I don't know how good your comprehension is but it's pretty clear to an English speaker that to know of a person's claims is quite different to knowing any events actually took place.
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« Last Edit: Dec 1st, 2007 at 7:47pm by deepthought »  
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #2 - Dec 1st, 2007 at 7:55pm
 
deepthought wrote on Dec 1st, 2007 at 7:34pm:
Why do you always misrepresent the facts?

Your heading says the "Coalition condoned torture", and you have copied a headline which says "Documents show PM knew of Habib torture".

Yet the very first sentence contradicts you.  It says "Declassified documents have revealed former prime minister John Howard and other senior politicians knew in 2002 of Mamdouh Habib's claims he was tortured in Egypt".

Now I don't know how good your comprehension is but it's pretty clear to an English speaker that to know of a person's claims is quite different to knowing any events actually took place.


Sounds like you suffer from Howarditis Apolagentis DT! Wink
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #3 - Dec 1st, 2007 at 8:39pm
 
He did nothing to stop it, even though he was an Australian citizen and Howard had the authority to bring him home. That is condoning it.
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #4 - Dec 1st, 2007 at 9:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 1st, 2007 at 8:39pm:
He did nothing to stop it, even though he was an Australian citizen and Howard had the authority to bring him home. That is condoning it.


It is only condoning it if it is true.  As the article says, and you misrepresented it, Howard ony knew of Habib's claims.  Any fool can claim anything but it does not make it truth unless you are gullible.

And if I recall correctly Habib was in a cell in Gitmo, an institution in Cuba.  Would you like to take a bet that John Howard had any authority or jurisdiction at all?  I'm up for it.  How much are you willing to stake on your erroneous belief?

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #5 - Dec 2nd, 2007 at 11:42am
 
All he had to do was ask Bush and he would have gotten him out. Other governments did - the ones who were concerned about the welfare of their own citizens.
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #6 - Dec 2nd, 2007 at 1:55pm
 
habib was a terrorist/traitor, he warrants no protection or interest
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #7 - Dec 2nd, 2007 at 2:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 2nd, 2007 at 11:42am:
All he had to do was ask Bush and he would have gotten him out. Other governments did - the ones who were concerned about the welfare of their own citizens.


So as you have made no comment about John Howard's knowledge of Habib's claims only rather than any knowledge of any actual events I assume you are conceding you are wrong in your baseless claim he condoned torture?

And a request to have someone returned to Australia from captivity elsewhere is not 'authority' is it.  Do you acknowledge you are wrong to believe that John Howard had any authority over what the US does at all?

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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #8 - Dec 2nd, 2007 at 9:09pm
 
You are correct DT.  Hayseed knew of the claims.  What did he do to GENUINELY ascertain whether there was any truth to the claims?

After all, it is a given that Americans did torture Iraqis, and that being so would give extra incentive for our PM to make a thorough, and relentless investigation to establish one way or another, whether Habib's claims of similar torture, were true.
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #9 - Dec 2nd, 2007 at 10:09pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 2nd, 2007 at 9:09pm:
You are correct DT.  Hayseed knew of the claims.  What did he do to GENUINELY ascertain whether there was any truth to the claims?

After all, it is a given that Americans did torture Iraqis, and that being so would give extra incentive for our PM to make a thorough, and relentless investigation to establish one way or another, whether Habib's claims of similar torture, were true.


He asked me Aussie, and I assured him there was no truth to the silly claims.
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #10 - Dec 2nd, 2007 at 10:24pm
 
Oh, sorry, I did not know that.

Undecided
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #11 - Dec 5th, 2007 at 1:27pm
 
from crikey:

That’s particularly significant given that former CIA officers have said Habib’s rendition could not have taken place without Australian complicity. Jack Cloonan, a former agent from the Bin Laden Unit, explained to the ABC in June: "It's impossible for me to believe that the Australian Government did not know that the Pakistani Government -- maybe at the urging of the United States and others -- didn't know that one of their citizens was being rendered to a third country. I can’t imagine under what circumstance the ASIO representative in Islamabad didn't know what was going on."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/11/1948035.htm?source=cmailer

Obviously, ASIO understood the reason why the US liked to transport prisoners to Egypt. So our spy agency seems to have agreed to hand a man over for torture -- even though they didn’t have any evidence against him.

If that’s not mind boggling enough, consider some of the other testimony from the case.

Apparently, an ASIO agent (known only as "Officer 1") did, in fact, visit Habib during his detention in Pakistan. He noted the curious fact that, during a break in questioning, Habib couldn’t walk unaided. Yet the prisoner’s mysterious incapacity didn’t seem to have bothered our man in Islamabad, since he flatly declined Habib’s repeated requests to talk privately away from his gaolers. Nor did he find out whether Habib had been given a phone call or understood his rights to refuse questioning.
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #12 - Dec 5th, 2007 at 4:09pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 2nd, 2007 at 1:55pm:
habib was a terrorist/traitor, he warrants no protection or interest


DT is playing the game of semantics. He is exonerating anyone of any alledged torture based on the wording "claims" on the report.

And yet, despite the US govt releasing him in Jan 2005 due to a lack of evidence that would hold up (even) in their secret military kangaroo courts (where the odds are stacked against the defendant) you brand him as a terrorist and a traitor.

You can't have it both ways.
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #13 - Dec 5th, 2007 at 6:29pm
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Dec 5th, 2007 at 4:09pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 2nd, 2007 at 1:55pm:
habib was a terrorist/traitor, he warrants no protection or interest


DT is playing the game of semantics. He is exonerating anyone of any alledged torture based on the wording "claims" on the report.

And yet, despite the US govt releasing him in Jan 2005 due to a lack of evidence that would hold up (even) in their secret military kangaroo courts (where the odds are stacked against the defendant) you brand him as a terrorist and a traitor.

You can't have it both ways.


It is not semantic to state that 'claim' means 'claim'.  And claim means exactly that - an assertion of truth.  But it is not truth without evidence.
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Re: Coalition condoned torture
Reply #14 - Dec 5th, 2007 at 8:38pm
 
So when an Asio agent observes that he is incapable of walking, that isn't evidence?
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