Australian Politics Forum - ISRAEL/PALESTINE

Gavin Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 304 Sydney, Australia Gender:	Re: hamas and fatah Reply #60 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:16pm freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:12pm: Gavin, we get the point. There is no need to keep explaining what democracy is. well, it doesn't seem that sprintcyclist understands it, he seems to think that democracy in the Middle East is okay provided the Islamic parties aren't elected.
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53184 At my desk.	Re: hamas and fatah Reply #61 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:18pm No, he's arguing that the democracy itself is flawed, not just the outcome
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Gavin

Senior Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 304
Sydney, Australia
Gender: male

Re: hamas and fatah
Reply #62 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:19pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:14pm:

I disagree entirely gavin.
That is entirely the point.
If people who run the country have instilled that as their belief, there is no free election.

There is no democracy under exremism. That is the point of extemism. That IS extremism.
That is what mohammad said. That is the koran.

there is no democracy in the Middle East right now, which is what we're currently working on.

but the point remains, if a democractic election is run in the Middle East and the Islamic party wins, then they have a right to govern since they were elected by the people. whether we, as Australian's, disagree with the Islamic parties policies is irrelevant.

Back to top

IP Logged

Gavin Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 304 Sydney, Australia Gender:	Re: hamas and fatah Reply #63 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:21pm freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:18pm: No, he's arguing that the democracy itself is flawed, not just the outcome okay, so sprintcyclist thinks democracy is flawed. i wonder what he suggests instead - communism??
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53184 At my desk.	Re: hamas and fatah Reply #64 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:23pm No, he doesn't think democracy is flawed. He thinks specific democracies are flawed due to lack of individual freedom. That is, they aren't really democratic.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Gavin

Senior Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 304
Sydney, Australia
Gender: male

Re: hamas and fatah
Reply #65 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:27pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:23pm:

No, he doesn't think democracy is flawed. He thinks specific democracies are flawed due to lack of individual freedom. That is, they aren't really democratic.

sure, if ur referring to the Middle East now, then yes they aren't really democratic.
what i'm referring to, is if we succeed in introducing real democracy into the Middle East - then we have to accept the election result regardless of whether we agree or disagree with the elected parties policies.

so if the Islamic party is elected by the people, then they have a right to govern - to deny that to them is not democracy at all.

Back to top

IP Logged

ex-member DonaldTrump

Gold Member

Offline

Oh mere mortals, open
your eyes!

Posts: 1995
Overseas
Gender: male

Re: hamas and fatah
Reply #66 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:31pm

Gavin wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:27pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:23pm:

No, he doesn't think democracy is flawed. He thinks specific democracies are flawed due to lack of individual freedom. That is, they aren't really democratic.

sure, if ur referring to the Middle East now, then yes they aren't really democratic.
what i'm referring to, is if we succeed in introducing real democracy into the Middle East - then we have to accept the election result regardless of whether we agree or disagree with the elected parties policies.

so if the Islamic party is elected by the people, then they have a right to govern - to deny that to them is not democracy at all.

Agreed.

Democracy is democracy. Whether they decide to vote in a dictatorship or not. That's the failure of democracy. The masses are sometimes (usually) idiots.

Back to top

Quote:

Tolerance is the virtue of men who no longer believe in anything

&&-- G.K. Chesterton

IP Logged

Gavin

Senior Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 304
Sydney, Australia
Gender: male

Re: hamas and fatah
Reply #67 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:34pm

ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:31pm:

Agreed.

Democracy is democracy. Whether they decide to vote in a dictatorship or not. That's the failure of democracy. The masses are sometimes (usually) idiots.

Finally, someone else gets it.

i find it quite amazing that people who want democracy instilled around the world are only happy with it when the parties they like are elected. but that's the point about democracy, it's the actual people in the country that will decide who governs, not us - it has nothing to do with us.

Back to top

IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41788 Gender:	Re: hamas and fatah Reply #68 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:40pm my concept is : there is no real free election under a islamic rule also, if a regime is "elected" whose "foreign policY" is to murder another race/belief, their existance cannot be accepted. ie, if they declare they can't live peacably with others, they can't live peacably with anyone. And whose "fault" is that ?
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 53184
At my desk.

Re: hamas and fatah
Reply #69 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:40pm

what i'm referring to, is if we succeed in introducing real democracy into the Middle East - then we have to accept the election result regardless of whether we agree or disagree with the elected parties policies

OK. Can we move on now?. You have been making this point for some time now and no-one has been directly disagreeing with it. We can accept that Hamas is what the palestinians actually wanted. That is not the same as accepting Hamas or it's policies. Just because the majority of Palestinians vote for driving the Israelis into the sea does not mean we have to accept them driving Israelis into the sea.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Gavin

Senior Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 304
Sydney, Australia
Gender: male

Re: hamas and fatah
Reply #70 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:45pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:40pm:

my concept is : there is no real free election under a islamic rule

i'm referring to a democratic election, where the Islamic party is running against other parties.
in that case, the country is having democratic elections and if the Islamic party wins - then that's what the people want.

Quote:

also, if a regime is "elected" whose "foreign policY" is to murder another race/belief, their existance cannot be accepted.

again, it's not ur country for u to dictate who is acceptable or not. if the people elected such a party, then that's what they want.

if u see them as a threat, then u can build up ur defenses. but that's about it.

Back to top

IP Logged

Gavin

Senior Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 304
Sydney, Australia
Gender: male

Re: hamas and fatah
Reply #71 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:47pm

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:40pm:

what i'm referring to, is if we succeed in introducing real democracy into the Middle East - then we have to accept the election result regardless of whether we agree or disagree with the elected parties policies

OK. Can we move on now?. You have been making this point for some time now and no-one has been directly disagreeing with it. We can accept that Hamas is what the palestinians actually wanted. That is not the same as accepting Hamas or it's policies. Just because the majority of Palestinians vote for driving the Israelis into the sea does not mean we have to accept them driving Israelis into the sea.

what are u on about? sprintcyclist has been disagreeing with me all along - it seems that he can't accept democracy where an Islamic party is elected, even if that's what the people want.

Back to top

IP Logged

Classic Liberal Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 769 sydney Gender:	Re: hamas and fatah Reply #72 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:53pm i think democracy is crap just everything else is worse
Back to top	IP Logged

AusNat Ex Member Gender:	Re: hamas and fatah Reply #73 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:54pm Classic Liberal wrote on Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:53pm: i think democracy is crap just everything else is worse So what is your solution?
Back to top	Total anti-marxist and anti-left wing. The Right is Right.&&&&&& IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53184 At my desk.	Re: hamas and fatah Reply #74 - Jun 17^th, 2007 at 7:59pm what are u on about? sprintcyclist has been disagreeing with me all along True, but not on the point you seem to think he is disagreeing on. That is why this debate has been so repetitive.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged