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ISRAEL/PALESTINE (Read 86150 times)
Acid Monkey
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #450 - Jul 21st, 2008 at 1:37am
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:43pm:
Well Acid, you are appalled by it and that's a good thing.



One can't help but be appalled by this. It is a terrible waste of a young and beautiful life. A lifetime of experiences and opportunities have been denied her.

I am equally appalled by reports of schools being "accidentally" bombed by US missles, domestic airlines being shot down, suicide and car bombs in the middle of market squares and nightclubs, secondary bombs targeting rescuers, foreigners being captured and beheaded, mistreatment of prisoners by US soldiers, hijacking and deliberate murder of passengers and innocents on the ground.

Furthermore, I am disgusted by both sides attempt to politicise and/or justify these acts. I sympathise and empathise with the victims and their families but the soldiers/occupiers/terrorists/freedom fighters and their sympathisers will never have my respect. They haven't done enough to earn it.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #451 - Jul 21st, 2008 at 2:19am
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 21st, 2008 at 1:37am:
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:43pm:
Well Acid, you are appalled by it and that's a good thing.



One can't help but be appalled by this. It is a terrible waste of a young and beautiful life. A lifetime of experiences and opportunities have been denied her.

I am equally appalled by reports of schools being "accidentally" bombed by US missles, domestic airlines being shot down, suicide and car bombs in the middle of market squares and nightclubs, secondary bombs targeting rescuers, foreigners being captured and beheaded, mistreatment of prisoners by US soldiers, hijacking and deliberate murder of passengers and innocents on the ground.

Furthermore, I am disgusted by both sides attempt to politicise and/or justify these acts. I sympathise and empathise with the victims and their families but the soldiers/occupiers/terrorists/freedom fighters and their sympathisers will never have my respect. They haven't done enough to earn it.

That's good Acid, it shows you have compassion and it certainly is admirable.

But I wonder Acid, if Australia was invaded, occupied and all of us were oppressed, you were kicked out of your home and your family treated worse than dogs would you not want to free your land from such oppression? Even if you had to fight the people who occupy your land so that in the future, perhaps you and your family can have security, liberty and justice again?

It's all good and well in a situation where you can act neutral Acid because you have no connection to that area, however what would happen if you were in their shoes? Would you not fight?

I'm against the killing of any civilian. It's forbidden in Islam and we don't tolerate it. I am sure that if you were in that situation you wouldn't target civilians, but would you fight your oppressor?
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freediver
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #452 - Jul 21st, 2008 at 11:29am
 
The majority of Lebanese civilian deaths DURING the war were caused by 'smart bombs' directly targetting areas where the civilians live, to terrorize them into stop supporting Hezbollah.

Could it be that Hezbollah was hiding among innocent civilians?

Perhaps you can tell me then why so many children have been shot in the head, neck and upper body? Perhaps you can explain then while little girls are being shot in the head when they are on their way to school or even at their school desks? Perhaps you can explain why little boys who are throwing stones are being shot in the head?

I'm not going to attempt to explain your fantasies and justifications for violence. You made up the sport shooting story and could not find any evidence to support it.

A fully armed and armored soldier shouldn't shoot and kill little boys simply because he was throwing rocks.

Even a simple rock can do some damage. If the spotter (not sure of the correct military terminology) cops on one the chin it could leave the tank temporarily open to attack, which is not a good thing when it is in hostile territory. It's not a nice thing to happen, but if you throw rocks at an army while they are 'active' they will shoot you. Sooner or later the Palestinians have to accept some responsiblity for all the poo that happens. Blaming it all on Israel won't solve anything, it will just perpetuate the violence.

This is akin to the victim being beaten to death for looking at the perpetrator.

No it's not, because it is not a life and death situation.
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Acid Monkey
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #453 - Jul 21st, 2008 at 5:32pm
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 21st, 2008 at 2:19am:
It's all good and well in a situation where you can act neutral Acid because you have no connection to that area, however what would happen if you were in their shoes? Would you not fight?

I'm against the killing of any civilian. It's forbidden in Islam and we don't tolerate it. I am sure that if you were in that situation you wouldn't target civilians, but would you fight your oppressor?


Of course, I would fight. And, as you've said that I won't target civilians. If the tactics of "my side" were to morph into such where killing of civilians are condoned that will be the time where I lay my weapon down and walk away from the battle. Fighting for freedom does not mean that one corrupts its meaning in fighting for it.

But, you don't have to paint a picture for me re: being invaded and occupied. I am already empathetic to the Palestinian cause and the Muslim denigration by the Western world. I just don't approve of the tactics used particularly deliberate killings of civilians.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #454 - Jul 21st, 2008 at 7:51pm
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 21st, 2008 at 5:32pm:
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 21st, 2008 at 2:19am:
It's all good and well in a situation where you can act neutral Acid because you have no connection to that area, however what would happen if you were in their shoes? Would you not fight?

I'm against the killing of any civilian. It's forbidden in Islam and we don't tolerate it. I am sure that if you were in that situation you wouldn't target civilians, but would you fight your oppressor?


Of course, I would fight. And, as you've said that I won't target civilians. If the tactics of "my side" were to morph into such where killing of civilians are condoned that will be the time where I lay my weapon down and walk away from the battle. Fighting for freedom does not mean that one corrupts its meaning in fighting for it.

But, you don't have to paint a picture for me re: being invaded and occupied. I am already empathetic to the Palestinian cause and the Muslim denigration by the Western world. I just don't approve of the tactics used particularly deliberate killings of civilians.

Good, then we completely agree.

Islam forbids the killing of civilians.
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Palestinian Twins Under Rocket Fire from Gaza
Reply #455 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 6:04pm
 
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,540689,00.html

By Christoph Schult in Ashkelon

When a Palestinian woman gave birth to twins in an Israeli hospital she experienced what it is like to be the target of rocket fire from the Gaza Strip.

The humming noise in the sky over Beit Lahia grows slowly louder. It sounds as if the buzzing of a hornet were being amplified by loud speakers in a football stadium. Residents of the Gaza Strip call them "Sannana," or the humming ones, the small unmanned drones that the Israelis use to scan the border region for rocket commandos -- and then to liquidate them with precisely targeted missiles.

Ashraf Shafii has climbed onto the roof his house and is looking across strawberry fields toward the border wall. The smoke-belching towers of the power plant in the Israeli city of Ashkelon jut into the sky along the horizon. His wife is over there in Ashkelon today.

Shafii, a 34-year-old lab technician at the Islamic University of Gaza, glances at his six-year-old daughter. "We were so desperate to have more children," he says. For years, he waited in vain for his wife to bear a son. When she turned 30, the couple decided to get fertility treatment.

Iman Shafii finally became pregnant. During an ultrasound examination, doctors discovered four small embryos. The first died in the fifth month of pregnancy and the second died a few weeks later. Shafii was admitted to the Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, but the condition of the two remaining embryos became increasingly fragile. "You have to go to Israel," the doctor told her.

Because Israel refuses to engage in any contact with the authorities in Hamas-controlled Gaza, patients turn to private brokers who submit their entry applications to the Palestinian Authority of moderate President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank city of Ramallah. But it can be a lengthy process.

The Shafiis were lucky. Iman was permitted to enter Israel after only 24 hours. She took a taxi to a spot near the Eres border crossing, and then she was pushed in a wheelchair across the last 500 meters of bumpy ground. She reached the Barzilai Hospital in Ashkelon just in time. She gave birth on Feb. 25, by Caesarean section, to a girl, Bayan, and to the couple's long-awaited son, Faisal.

Iman Shafii, 32, wearing a headscarf and oval glasses, and speaking in a soft voice, sits on a chair between two incubators. Today is the first day she is permitted to hold her babies in her arms. A nurse brings out the boy first, then the girl. As the tears well up in her eyes, Shafii kisses her children on their foreheads. "If the children had stayed in Gaza, they would not have survived," she says.

Her only impression of Israel has been the one she gets on Palestinian television, which usually shows tanks and soldiers, and celebrates attacks, like the recent shooting inside a Talmud school in Jerusalem, as acts of heroism. But now a doctor wearing a yarmulke walks into the room, says "Shalom" and asks her in English how she is feeling.

Dr. Shmuel Zangen, the director of the hospital's neonatal unit, doesn't care who he treats. "As a doctor, I enjoy the privilege of not having to think about it," he says. "It certainly is odd that we take care of Palestinian children while they shoot at us. It's the sort of thing that only happens in the Middle East."

'Not a Just War'

In the past, Shafii saw the Israelis exclusively as perpetrators, but in Ashkelon she is encountering, for the first time, victims of the acts of terror committed by her own people. One of them is nine-year-old Yossi, who is sitting in a wheelchair. A steel frame holds his left shoulder together. It was fractured by shrapnel from a rocket that landed in the city of Sderot. "The people in Sderot are suffering just as we are in Gaza," she says.

There was a sharp increase in the Palestinian rocket attacks after Israel cleared the Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip in September 2005. The Israeli military counted 2,305 hits last year, and there have already been 1,146 in the first two months of this year. Until now, almost all of the missiles have been Qassam rockets, which are made in the Gaza Strip and have a range of about 12 kilometers (seven miles).

But the breaching of the border fence between the Gaza Strip and Egypt by Hamas in January made it possible to bring in Russian and Iranian rockets with longer ranges. This means that cities considered safe in the past are now threatened. One of them is Ashkelon. On the second day after the birth of Bayan and Faisal, a Soviet-made "Grad" rocket landed on the hospital grounds. "I heard it hit, 200 meters away from me," says Shafii. The neonatal unit was moved to a bunker the next day. "The groups that are firing the rockets are not fighting a just war," says the Palestinian mother, adding that they are not abiding by what the Prophet Muhammad said: that wars may only be waged between soldiers, but not against civilians.

The buzzing drone in the sky over Beit Lahia has flown away to the south. The sound of an Israeli missile striking its target can be heard a short time later. Within a few minutes, there are reports that a member of the group Islamic Jihad was killed.
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #456 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 6:04pm
 
Ashraf Shafii describes how young, masked men repeatedly set up their rocket launchers under the cover of houses in Beit Lahia. "They shoot at Israeli civilians, which is completely unacceptable," says Shafii. "And they put us Palestinian civilians in grave danger, because the Israelis shoot back."

Why doesn't he object? "They are armed," says Shafii, "and they shoot at anyone who gets in their way."

The father is holding the first photos of his newborn twins in his hands. He is worried about the rockets being fired at Ashkelon. He says that he would never have believed it possible that he could be indebted to the Israelis for anything. "What a confusing situation," he says.

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan
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abu_rashid
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #457 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 8:20pm
 
Quote:
Her only impression of Israel has been the one she gets on Palestinian television, which usually shows tanks and soldiers


I hardly think Palestinians need to watch television to see tanks and soldiers. Gotta wonder if these kinda lines are sentiments she expressed to the writer of the article? Or his fanciful 'enhancements' done back in the editing room.

Ashkelon is a nice city, I heard that Palestinians who corroborate with Israel and get citizenship of Israel get special condominiums there. Smiley
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #458 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 9:52am
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 21st, 2008 at 2:19am:
I'm against the killing of any civilian. It's forbidden in Islam and we don't tolerate it. 

Yes you do.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #459 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 11:12am
 
I can't remember whether it was Abu or Malik or both, but someone was recently trying to justify the killing of Israeli civilians because they 'all' had to serve in the military at some stage.
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #460 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 11:56am
 
Right-oh. Good effort in excusing that one then. Unbelievable.
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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins
 
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #461 - Aug 15th, 2008 at 3:07pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 6th, 2008 at 11:12am:
I can't remember whether it was Abu or Malik or both, but someone was recently trying to justify the killing of Israeli civilians because they 'all' had to serve in the military at some stage.



That would be Malik in conversation with me. He asserted that all Israelis served in IDF for national service and after discharge can be called up for miltary service at anytime. Ergo, even though they are civilians is considered to be militia (or a civiliian military). Therefore, Israeli citizens can be justifibly killed. I want to ask but was side-tracked and had forgotten, to ask his opinion whether Israeli citizens under the age of 18yo (pre national service) and those over 45yo (post possible defence draft) can be justly killed.
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #462 - Aug 15th, 2008 at 3:09pm
 
Not to mention tourists, the infirm, conscientious objectors, muslims etc

It seems odd coming from a Muslim, given that under Islamic law all Muslims are required to do military service.
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Acid Monkey
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #463 - Aug 15th, 2008 at 3:17pm
 
If anyone is interested, tomorrow (Saturday 16 August 2008, 1.30pm) on Radio National, The Philosophers Zone

Rootedness and Diaspora

|

The French philosopher and social activist Simone Weil identified the basic human need for roots as crucial. Uprootedness and disapora in the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians have shaped the narratives about the past and the future on both sides. Jonathan Glover, a Professor of Philosophy at King's College London has been in Australia to deliver the annual Simone Weil lecture on human value and joins us.

Guest:
Jonathan Glover
Professor
Centre of Medical Law and Ethics
King's College, London
United Kingdom

Distinguished Research Fellow
Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics
United Kingdom

Publications
Title: Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century
Author: Jonathan Glover
Publisher: Yale University Press (2000)


ABC Radio National
Adelaide 729AM | Brisbane 792AM | Canberra 846AM Darwin 657AM | Gold Coast 90.1FM | Hobart 585AM Melbourne 621AM | Newcastle 1512AM | Perth 810AM | Sydney 576AM
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #464 - Aug 15th, 2008 at 3:23pm
 
Yes, the fact that they are so rooted does seem to be a problem....
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