Australian Politics Forum - ISRAEL/PALESTINE

Malik Shakur

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #360 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 10:24pm

Quote:

http://ifamericansknew.org/stats/child_41304.html
Palestinian Children Killed by IsraelBy Khalid Amayreh
From Al Jazeera
April 13, 2004

According to Al Jazeera, at least 545 Arab children have been killed since September 2000.

One of the most disturbing aspects of the strife between Israel and the Palestinians has been the killing and maiming of children.

The Israeli occupation army and paramilitary Jewish settlers have killed 545 Palestinian children and minors since the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000.

Among these victims, 266 children were 14 or younger while the ages of the remaining 279 ranged from 15 to 18. Moreover, as many as 20,000 Palestinian children were injured, with nearly 1500 sustaining life-long disabilities.

The total number of Palestinians killed by Israel during the current Intifada is around 2700, the vast majority of them civilians.

Casualties
On the other hand, the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians during the same period is around 840 soldiers, settlers and civilians, including about 100 Israeli children and minors.

Nearly 2500 Israelis were injured, mostly suffering from light wounds and shock. Many of the Israeli victims died in bombings inside Israel.

In 2003, a total of 130 Palestinian children and minors were killed by Israeli troops and a further 22 have been killed in the first three months of this year.

One of the latest Palestinian children to be killed by the Israeli army was six-year-old Khalid Mahir Walwil from the Balata refugee camp near Nablus.

He was shot in the back as he turned away from the window on the second floor of his house.

Khalid had reportedly stayed at home that day, too frightened to go to school because Israeli soldiers were “operating” in the area.

Targeting denied
Despite the facts, Israeli officials continue to vehemently deny that their army targets Palestinian children.

Amira Dotan, a spokeswoman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, told Aljazeera.net it was inconceivable that the Israeli army targeted Palestinian civilians, let alone children.

Khalid Walwil was the latest victim of Israel’s killings.

“We are a democratic state, our government would be toppled if it was proven that our defence forces had indulged in targeting Palestinian civilians and children,” she says.

“This sort of thing just doesn’t happen in Israel.”

When asked to explain the death of nearly 550 Palestinian children and minors by the Israeli army during the past 44 months, Dotan said the deaths were “accidental, collateral but not deliberate”.

However, when further pressed to explain how the Israeli army decided to drop one-tonne bombs on apartment buildings in Gaza and carry out devastating air strikes targeting markets and crowded streets, killing scores of children and women, Dotan invoked the mantra of terror.

“Yes, we knew there were children, but we had to kill the terrorists.”

Like other Israeli officials and spokespersons, Dotan believe that these actions were justified so as to protect Israeli lives.

“If we hadn’t killed those Palestinian children, then the terrorist would have killed three or four times as many Israelis.”

‘Macabre reasoning’
Palestinian officials, including jurists and human rights activists, strongly reject and condemn this “macabre reasoning”.

“Killing knowingly is killing deliberately and premeditatedly. It is a war crime which no amount of verbal juggling can extenuate,” said Hanna Issa, a prominent Palestinian legal expert and Director-General of the Palestinian Ministry of Justice.

“They know in advance that children are sleeping in the targeted building, none the less, they carry out the killing without batting an eyelash ... and then they shed the crocodile tears and claim that the killing was accidental or happened by mistake”

Hanna Issa,
director-general, Palestinian Justice Ministry

“They are killing with malice aforethought ... they know in advance that children are sleeping in the targeted building, none the less, they carry out the killing without batting an eyelash ... and then they shed the crocodile tears and claim that the killing was accidental or happened by mistake ...there is no such thing as killing deliberately by mistake.”

Stressing his point, Issa argued that Israel would never even contemplate bombing a building or a market or a crowded street if it knew that Israeli Jews were in the vicinity of the target.

He gave as an example an Israeli decision to call off an operation to assassinate Hamas founder and spiritual leader Shaikh Ahmad Yasin last year after it was found out that Israeli journalists were interviewing him.

“My question is would the Israeli army have cancelled the operation if the journalists had been Palestinians, not Israelis?”

Yasin was assassinated by Israel along with 10 other Palestinian civilians outside a Gaza mosque on 22 March.

Issa condemned all attacks on civilians, Israeli and Palestinian alike. “Murder is murder, period.”

However, he added: “I don’t believe that Israel stands on a higher moral ground just because Israeli soldiers are dressed in khaki and use F-16s, apache helicopters and flechette shells (deadly dart bombs) to kill and maim Palestinian children while Israeli civilians are killed by suicide bombers.”

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Malik Shakur

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #361 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 10:25pm

Quote:

‘Deliberate killings’
Since the outbreak of the Intifada, several human rights organisations have thoroughly investigated the circumstances of thousands of Palestinian civilian deaths, reaching the conclusion that the Israeli army “kills civilians knowingly and deliberately”.

One of these organisations is Physicians for Human Rights-USA, which investigated the number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the fist months of the Intifada.

A total of 266 children killed were 14 or younger.

It concluded that “the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing”.

In some cases, the killing of Palestinian youths by Israel assumes a brazen and dastardly nature.

Nearly two years ago, Chris Hedges, a Western journalist covering events in Gaza reported how Israeli soldiers lured Palestinian kids to walk towards them for the purpose of hunting them down with their machineguns.

What is more shocking though is that virtually none of these killings has been investigated by the Israeli army or justice system, underscoring the striking ease with which the Israeli army kills Palestinians.

Twelve and up
Some Israeli soldiers have admitted that the army gives them “carte blanche” to shoot and kill Palestinian above the age of 12.

The noted Israeli award-wining journalist Amira Hass interviewed an Israeli sniper nearly two years ago in which the soldier described the commands he received from his superiors:

“The blood of their children is not more precious than that of our children. Let them stop killing our civilians, and we will stop killing theirs”

Abd al-Aziz al-Rantisi,
Hamas leader in Gaza (recently assassinated)

“Twelve and up, you are allowed to shoot. That’s what they tell us,” he said. “So,” responded the reporter, “according to the IDF, the appropriate minimum age group at which to shoot is 12.”

The soldier replied: “This is according to what the IDF says to its soldiers. I do not know if this is what the IDF says to the media.”

Many Palestinians are convinced that these atrocities fuel the fire of further attacks against Israel.

“The blood of their children is not more precious than that of our children,” said the new Hamas leader in Gaza, Abd al-Aziz al-Rantisi. “Let them stop killing our civilians, and we will stop killing theirs.”

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Malik Shakur

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #362 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 10:26pm

Quote:

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/fd807e46661e3689852570d00069e918/e390349a65cea0...

Public Statement

AI Index: MDE 15/055/2004 (Public)
News Service No: 131
25 May 2004

Israel/Occupied Territories: Killing of children must be investigated

Amnesty International is calling on the Israeli authorities to ensure that a thorough, independent and impartial investigation is promptly carried out into the killing of two Palestinian children by members of the Israeli army in recent days in the Gaza Strip.

Sixteen-year-old Asma al-Mughayr and her 13-year-old brother Ahmad were shot dead within minutes of each other on the roof-terrace of their home in the southern Gaza Strip town of Rafah on the morning of 18 May 2004. Each was killed by a single bullet in the head, Asma while taking clothes off the drying line and her brother Ahmad while feeding the pigeons.

All available information indicate that the bullets which killed the two children were fired from the top floor of a nearby house, the highest building in the area, which had been taken over by Israeli soldiers shortly before the two children where shot.

Amnesty International spoke with several foreign journalists who visited the al-Mughayrs' house and the nearby house which was being used by Israeli soldiers at the time and reviewed photos taken by them. In the nearby house the journalists found an empty Israeli army ammunition box, spent bullet cases and leftovers from Israeli army food rations next to the holes which Israeli soldiers had pierced in the walls of the house to use as sniper positions. The pictures taken by the journalists show that there was a clear view of the al-Mughayrs' roof-terrace, where the two children were killed.

Israeli army officials have alleged that the children may have been killed by an explosive device set by Palestinians. However, the photos taken by the journalists show bullet holes on the clothes hanging on the drying line, on the satellite dish and on the wall; they did not show any damage which could have been caused by an explosion or by shrapnel from an explosion.

According to the children's family only single gunshots were heard when the children were killed and no explosions were reported at the time. Also according to the family, Ahmad ran downstairs to call for help after his sister Asma was shot in the head; he was shot in the head as he re-emerged from the staircase onto the roof-terrace.

In light of the pattern of inadequate investigations or lack of investigations into unlawful killings by the Israeli army of hundreds of Palestinians, including hundreds of children, in the past three and a half years, Amnesty International urges the Israeli authorities:
· to ensure that a thorough, independent and impartial investigation is promptly carried out by judicial authorities;
· that the scope, methods and findings of the investigation be made public;
· and that those responsible for these killings are brought to justice.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #363 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 10:29pm

mozzaok wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 10:03pm:

Malik says;

"they don't care if they die because they know that they are promised Paradise in the next life if they fight"

Sick religious kooks, who practice and preach their death cult mumbo jumbo disgust me.
If you want to waste this one and only life we get, then good for you, but brainwashing kids with this sick fantasy is plainly wrong.
If you really believed any of what you preach you would be sending the soldier a gift basket for allowing the little girl to get to paradise sooner, but like most religious people, deep down inside, you know it is all BS.

Really? So defending yourself against oppression is wrong Mozza?

It's obvious, PLAINLY OBVIOUS that you believe Muslims have no right to defend themselves against oppression.

Would you happily live under an oppressive government Mozza? Would you accept their oppression?

If you would you're a coward.

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mozzaok

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #364 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 7:48am

Learn to read Malik.

If you want to be accurate what I said was that your beliefs are wrong.
Well that is a no brainer, all religious beliefs are wrong.

Now I can handle grown ups being a bit out there, and choosing these crazy belief systems if it helps them get through their day, but I detest the forcing of these ridiculously stupid, and totally ludicrous beliefs onto kids who should be allowed to grow up, and then choose what they wish to believe.

I do live under an oppressive government, the standover men have me give them money every week. Roll Eyes

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Malik Shakur

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #365 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 9:15am

mozzaok wrote on Jul 15^th, 2008 at 7:48am:

Learn to read Malik.

If you want to be accurate what I said was that your beliefs are wrong.
Well that is a no brainer, all religious beliefs are wrong.

Now I can handle grown ups being a bit out there, and choosing these crazy belief systems if it helps them get through their day, but I detest the forcing of these ridiculously stupid, and totally ludicrous beliefs onto kids who should be allowed to grow up, and then choose what they wish to believe.

I do live under an oppressive government, the standover men have me give them money every week. Roll Eyes

You know nothing of oppression, wait and see when you're forced out of your home by an occupier and forced to live in refugee camps, when your sister is raped in front of your eyes, your father imprisoned, your baby brother shot dead and your mother murdered too.. When you live for 60 years under that kind of oppression then you'll know what oppression is.

Your problem is that you hate religion.. So anything to do with Islam you hate.

The problem is not the children being taught to fight and defend themselves from oppression according to you, you'd accept teaching that to a secular athiest, your problem is teaching the children Islam because your so full of hate for it. You're so full of hate that obviously you believe that no Muslim has the right to fight to defend their lands from oppression. Because you consider Muslims to be stupidly and blindly following their faith.

I pray Mozza that you come under the same oppression as the Palestinians and that you and your children live under it for 60 years and then let's see whether you would fight back or not or whether you'd teach your kids how to fight?

What hope do those kids have while they are oppressed and their country occupied. There is no opportunity for them and not teaching them to fight is not preparing them for the realities of their life. It's like never teaching them to drive and forbidding them to look at a car but then suddenly expecting them to drive you to a doctors if you feel sick. They obviously wouldn't have the skills to do that and it shows that you havent adequately prepared them for what they will come across, you'd have failed as a parent if you neglected to prepare them for what you knew they'd come across.

So the fact remains Mozza, not all Palestinian children get taught to fight. But all Palestinian children get exposed to Israeli oppression and violence. Perhaps if you stopped the occupation and oppression, parents wouldn't have to teach their children how to fight to survive or free their land. Instead they could live peacefully.

I'll refer you again to what Malcolm X (may God be pleased with him) said:

Quote:

There's nothing in our book, the Quran -- you call it "Ko-ran" -- that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion. In fact, that's that old-time religion. That's the one that Ma and Pa used to talk about: an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and a head for a head, and a life for a life: That's a good religion. And doesn't nobody resent that kind of religion being taught but a wolf, who intends to make you his meal.

People like you would prefer not to teach the Palestinians to defend themself, a fundamental human right. The Palestinian children don't live in a peaceful zone so you'd rather have them ignorant to what they will face later so they'd be easier to push over and kill, people like you are the wolves who wish to make them your meal.

It still shows that being selective in who you believe should be tuaght to defend themselves based on religion that you believe Muslims are subhuman and you are far more superior in rights than they are.

If Australia was invaded by a brutal occupier and you refused to fight them to free your land then you'd be a coward not worthy of Australian citizenship. If you refused to teach your children how to fight then you'd be neglectful in their upbringing because you know the oppression and occupation will still be there when they grow up, so refusing to prepare them for it and how to fight it would be downright bad parenting.

You wouldn't have to teach them that if there was no oppression in the first place. They could grow up like normal kids.

It's funny that you place the blame for teaching the kids how to fight on the Palestinians, when it wouldn't be necessary at all if the Israeli's weren't occupying their land and oppressing them.

Typical wolf mentality.

Another Quote from Malcolm X:
Quote:

"We declare our right on this earth...to be a human being, to be respected as a human being, to be given the rights of a human being in this society, on this earth, in this day, which we intend to bring into existence by any means necessary."

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mozzaok

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #366 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 9:32am

Malik says;

"I pray Mozza that you come under the same oppression as the Palestinians and that you and your children live under it for 60 years and then let's see whether you would fight back or not or whether you'd teach your kids how to fight?"

How Islamic of you, Malik, fortunately I know your prayers will be as meaningless as your beliefs, but just in case, can you pray I win the lotto while I am being oppressed too?

I guess you are also praying that you and your ratbag mates can turn the whole world into a theocratic Islamic "paradise", and then you can really teach us infidels about oppression. Grin

The things I wanted to teach my kids were independent thinking, self worth, and rationality, all qualities to equip them to be the best they can be, and coincidentally, qualities required to not have, if you want to fall for religious dogma.
Funny about that, perhaps it is more than a coincidence.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #367 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 9:43am

mozzaok wrote on Jul 15^th, 2008 at 9:32am:

Malik says;

"I pray Mozza that you come under the same oppression as the Palestinians and that you and your children live under it for 60 years and then let's see whether you would fight back or not or whether you'd teach your kids how to fight?"

How Islamic of you, Malik, fortunately I know your prayers will be as meaningless as your beliefs, but just in case, can you pray I win the lotto while I am being oppressed too?

I guess you are also praying that you and your ratbag mates can turn the whole world into a theocratic Islamic "paradise", and then you can really teach us infidels about oppression. Grin

The things I wanted to teach my kids were independent thinking, self worth, and rationality, all qualities to equip them to be the best they can be, and coincidentally, qualities required to not have, if you want to fall for religious dogma.
Funny about that, perhaps it is more than a coincidence.

No, you want to teach them extremism, athiesm and to hate all religions like you do. You act as if believing nothing is some kind of neutral zone. It's obvious that your kind of atheism is not neutral at all, it calls for the hate of all religions, that in itself is dogma.

My prayer is so you learn some humility and can know exactly what the Palestinians go through. Nothing wrong with that considering how pig headed and arrogant you are. You lack any form of compassion.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41788 Gender:	Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE Reply #368 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 9:44am See mozzaok - if you weren't a cowardly infidel you too could be breeding up the next batch of martyrs, training them up, getting them in street marches all "dressed up" in their "traditional" clothing. Three cheers for all us cowardly infidels !! Hip Hip
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #369 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 9:48am

thanks malik

Quote:

I'll refer you again to what Malcolm X (may God be pleased with him) said:

Quote:
There's nothing in our book, the Quran -- you call it "Ko-ran" -- that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion. In fact, that's that old-time religion. That's the one that Ma and Pa used to talk about: an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and a head for a head, and a life for a life: That's a good religion. And doesn't nobody resent that kind of religion being taught but a wolf, who intends to make you his meal.

this from a "moderate" teacher folks.

So much for turning the other cheek.
Not when you follow a paedophillic warlord.

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freediver

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #370 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 10:37am

Well obviously if she was scared before it she wouldn't have gone in there

Not necessarily. It's a shame you swallowed this propaganda hook line and sinker. Did you bother to criticise the court's reasoning to let him off the hook? Did you even bother to find out what their reasoning was? Why let the truth get in the way of a good story eh?

Furthermore, the brutality is important, as mentioned because it shows how much the Israeli's consider the Palestinians subhuman.

It shows no such thing. You are misrepresenting it, trying to make it out to be something that it isn't, because it makes convenient propaganda. Do you really think this girl would have been happy that you use her as an opportunity for cheap political points?

If the Arab states, including the Palestinians are willing to have a two state solution which it is obvious that they are

But is it really that obvious? You try to make it obvious that you support a two state solution, but then you go and call for Israel to be conquered and say they have no right to be there. And you are someone living in luxury on the other side of the world, calling for more war and more death. How can you expect the Israelis to trust such statements from locals?

Witnesses blamed Israeli troops, but Israel said an initial investigation suggested they were not responsible.

So this is some kind of evidence that Israelis shoot at children in schools for sport? It reminds of the typical BS you here in a war, like the enemy leaving dead kittens in churches etc. Anyone who takes that sort of propaganda seriously is a danger to humanity. You would use made up stories to justify your own evil intentions.

You know nothing of oppression, wait and see when you're forced out of your home by an occupier and forced to live in refugee camps, when your sister is raped in front of your eyes, your father imprisoned, your baby brother shot dead and your mother murdered too..

Do you 'know' this, or are you just looking for something to be angry about, trying to spread hatred from one corner of the world into every society?

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abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #371 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 11:00am

acid,

Quote:

You are never going to get people to listen if you rant and rave. You are never going to educate if you generalise and label your audience.

We began rationally speaking with freediver and mozza on this issue, they indicated they have absolutely no respect for the live's of Muslims, and so we ceased giving them the respect of rational discussion.

There's not really much point in wasting time presenting an argument to them, no matter what facts you bring, no matter how grave the situation, their arrogance is unaffected on this issue. So I'm not even bothering with them.

Quote:

You've said somewhere about sending them back to whence they've came. Some are actually born there to which you've replied that it not your problem. Its at that point where people will stop listening. I know I have. You are arguing for a fix to the problem by offering a solution that is neither reasonable nor realistic.

It's the only solution we can accept. Would the West accept us to come back in and take over al-Andalus? Even if we ended up agreeing to only about 2/3 of it? If we just spent 60 odd years slaughtering and oppressing the people, do you think they'd end up "compromising" with us? Our claim to al-Andalus is far stronger than their claim to the Holy Land. We were only expelled 500 years ago, they were expelled over 1800 years ago, so we are only a score or so of generations out of Andalus. And our state there lasted longer, about as long as both of their states in the Holy Land.

Would you be willing to accept a "compromise" solution to give 2/3 of al-Andalus back to us? If not, then please don't bother asking us to do the same for the Zionists.

Quote:

The danger is you'll turned people away, lose allies or worst, people stop listening or caring.

You and muso are the only two here that even show an inkling of rationality about the issue. I assume you do so because you're principled people, not because I can pretend to be all peace-loving and make compromises.

Mozza and freediver can't be turned away further, so that's not really a valid point.

There may be a third party, lurkers who are not engaging in the discussion but only spectating, and they would probably also fall into the same two categories, either they're principled people to begin with and would be disgusted by the utter lack of disrespect for human life here, or they'd be unprincipled and have the utter lack of disrespect for human life themselves.

Even though I am a proponent of the Palestinian position, I would never speak about Israeli children casualties the way these people have. I am mortified anytime I see a child even injured in fighting like this, and I always hold the child to be innocent, as this is what Islam teaches, that a child is innocent no matter what.

Quote:

Someone has to break the cycle. Sprint offered an olive branch and you've followed his offer with a picture of a bulldozer as if to incite or as a rebute to his gesture.

Come on acid, I don't think you came down in the last shower. Sprint has been going around "offering olive branches" so to speak since I arrived on this forum, and I assume before my time also. One minute he's apologising, welcoming and playing friendly, next minute he's slandering our prophet (pbuh) of being a paedophile. He speaks with two tongues, and I'm sorry but I don't care for either of them.

I don't have the time of day for such insincerity.

Quote:

However, it would be better if you stayed and keep playing the game fairly. No cheating, and no sledging.

I feel I've played fairly, and am content with my performance on the field. I think your criticisms, as constructive as they may be, are better directed at some of those on the opposing team who don't believe in playing as fair.

However, since they are "rational secularists" and we are "fanatical religionists", I doubt you'll choose that course of action, but this is a test of your own character also, and you must be wise enough to realise that. It's one thing to palm your wisdoms off to others, but can you accept and implement them yourself?

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mozzaok

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #372 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 12:08pm

Abu, re; What are you?
Apart from the obvious, (if you change FD's second initial to the corresponding position at the opposite end you will get it)you do come across as someone who condones violence on one side as justified, because they are oppressed, but not for the other side, because they feel threatened.

Your position relies totally on the old which came first argument, the chicken or the egg?

You categorically refute the possibility that it is an unsolvable problem, and justify your violence because you know for sure that the chicken came first.

Rational people say that you should put aside your belief in your incorrectly justified claim that you alone have a right to the middle east, and get on with negotiating an outcome which is not predicated on one or other sides holy right to be there.

Until you get to this basic starting point, there is no hope of ever working toward a peaceful outcome, and you can continue with your blame game.

They are all evil oppressors who slaughter innocents for sport, and we are all noble martyrs dying for a just cause.

Just because you believe it does not mean it isn't crap.

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abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #373 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 12:32pm

Quote:

you do come across as someone who condones violence on one side as justified

Again, It doesn't mean much coming from someone who just tried to justify and explain away the callous gunning down of a little school girl on her way to school by soldiers with high powered rifles.

You've openly shown that you justify violence against innocent little children, I've done no such thing. About the best you've been able to say is "You're someone who comes across as.." or "You appear to..", statements that are about as empty as the rest of your arguments.

Quote:

Your position relies totally on the old which came first argument, the chicken or the egg? You categorically refute the possibility that it is an unsolvable problem, and justify your violence because you know for sure that the chicken came first

It doesn't rely on that whatsoever, in fact that's the argument of the Zionists, that they were there 2000 years ago, so they have a right to it now. The way I see it is that the Palestinians are there, and have been for a very long time, Jews were less than 2% when the Zionist project began (with the writing of Hertzl's book) and from that time until now has been a struggle. You cannot detach this struggle from the conditions in which it originated. This is a deception often used by the Western media, that this struggle only began in thew 1980's, when Palestinian suicide bombers began blowing up innocent Israeli civilians in cafes. Such a limited field of view is dishonest. The struggle began at the turn of the 20th. century with the beginning of the Zionist movement around the ideas propounded by Hertzl, and has continued till this day. It's been one continual struggle, and anyone who sincerely wishes to look into this struggle, find it's causes and present a solution needs to look at it from day one until today and see it in the full perspective. You can't just look at the last 5 minutes of the struggle and come to the conclusions we see thrown around so easily.

Quote:

Until you get to this basic starting point, there is no hope of ever working toward a peaceful outcome, and you can continue with your blame game

On the contrary, we know that in the end we will have victory, and the Zionists know that too. That is why they seek to eradicate the Palestinians from the face of the earth. That is why they engage in deportation programs and in collective punishments and in all the other brutal means they use. They know they are in our land, and if you read the quotes of earliest Zionist writers you'll see they clearly mentioned this and stated they must remove us, because no people would accept becoming second class citizens in their own country. They said this long before any such thing as a suicide bomber or an intifada had even been dreamed up.

The Zionist state is like another kind of Western installation in the Middle East, an oil rig, sitting in the middle of the ocean.Yes it manages to stay above the waves for the time being, and whilst it continues to be maintained externally, but once that maintenance is withdrawn, it will float away with the force of the waves. Do you think the West can sustain Israel indefinitely? I don't.

Quote:

They are all evil oppressors who slaughter innocents for sport, and we are all noble martyrs dying for a just cause.

Well, if you really looked at it objectively, you might come to the same conclusion. When you see wealthy Jews leaving good homes in the USA to go and make "aliyah" to a settlement in occupied Palestine, to take the home of a Palestinian and force him and his family into a refugee camp, then the two sides you spoke of will emerge. One side is definitely doing it out of leisure and without any force against them, whilst the other side is merely doing it to keep their heads above water.

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Acid Monkey

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Goth Father

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #374 - Jul 15^th, 2008 at 12:45pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 15^th, 2008 at 11:00am:

Come on acid, I don't think you came down in the last shower. Sprint has been going around "offering olive branches" so to speak since I arrived on this forum, and I assume before my time also. One minute he's apologising, welcoming and playing friendly, next minute he's slandering our prophet (pbuh) of being a paedophile. He speaks with two tongues, and I'm sorry but I don't care for either of them.

I don't have the time of day for such insincerity.

Agreed. However, his spiteful and slanderous comments are problems only he can deal with. You arguing back equally spitefully will not help the matter. If one apologises to another, one can only take it at face value and accept. That all part of forgiveness and turning the other cheek which both your religions are happy to preach. Why prolong the argument or further escalate it? You are all like little kids arguing to have the last word.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 15^th, 2008 at 11:00am:

I feel I've played fairly, and am content with my performance on the field. I think your criticisms, as constructive as they may be, are better directed at some of those on the opposing team who don't believe in playing as fair.

I've directed the same criticisms to the opposing team time and time again.

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