Australian Politics Forum - ISRAEL/PALESTINE

abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #330 - Jul 13^th, 2008 at 11:38pm

Acid, this is not specifically aimed at you, but it seems you're falling into the same kind of justifications in a sense too.

Quote:

Sure, she probably shouldn't have be there but you know sometimes kids will be kids.

I really think you people have absolutely no idea about what's going on there.

Do you think there's nice little segregated war zones, and then there's the nice peaceful civilian zones?

The whole place is a war zone. This little girl wasn't wandering into an area that had big signs up "Beware, soldiers with guns who shoot to kill".

So I don't know where you think "there" is. But it seems central to everyone's justification for the murder. She was in a place she shouldn't have been in and that's why she got killed, because we all know Israeli soldiers don't shoot civilians on purpose, only Palestinian terrorists do that, so she couldn't have been in a nice civilian area, and if she was, it means Palestinian militants were to blame, as they were using her as a human shield.

Do you people even stop and think about the nonsensical arguments you come up with to justify this kind of horrendous behaviour?

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Acid Monkey

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #331 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 1:03am

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 13^th, 2008 at 11:38pm:

Acid, this is not specifically aimed at you, but it seems you're falling into the same kind of justifications in a sense too.

Quote:

Sure, she probably shouldn't have be there but you know sometimes kids will be kids.

I really think you people have absolutely no idea about what's going on there.

Do you think there's nice little segregated war zones, and then there's the nice peaceful civilian zones?

The whole place is a war zone. This little girl wasn't wandering into an area that had big signs up "Beware, soldiers with guns who shoot to kill".

So I don't know where you think "there" is. But it seems central to everyone's justification for the murder. She was in a place she shouldn't have been in and that's why she got killed, because we all know Israeli soldiers don't shoot civilians on purpose, only Palestinian terrorists do that, so she couldn't have been in a nice civilian area, and if she was, it means Palestinian militants were to blame, as they were using her as a human shield.

Do you people even stop and think about the nonsensical arguments you come up with to justify this kind of horrendous behaviour?

Well, I've never claimed to know the situation over there. How can I? However, I would say that I am well read, have researched adequately and intelligent enough to decipher propaganda from fact without emotion.

As for where "there" is - please don't mistake me for a philistine - I am well aware of war zones etc. I'm not intimate with this particular event relating to the girl thereby I comment without authority. I don't know where "there" is but I note that FD mentioned that she was in a "no-go zone". So, whatever his assumption is I am following the flow of that conversation.

Nevertheless, I think you are falling into the trap in the sense that you (Muslims) believe that you are cut off and alone in the experience of battles, persecutions and war zones and that no one can understand the Palestinian plight except for Muslims. By "you people" I assume you mean the infidels.

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« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2008 at 1:16am by Acid Monkey »

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Malik Shakur

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #332 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 1:20am

Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 1:03am:

Well, I've never claimed to know the situation over there. How can I? However, I would say that I am well read, have researched the situation adequately and intelligent enough to decipher propaganda from fact. As for where "there" is - please don't mistake me for a philistine - I am well aware of war zones etc. I'm not intimate with this particular event relating to the girl thereby I comment without authority. However, I note that FD mentioned that she was in a "no-go zone". I am following the flow of that conversation.

Even if she went there into a no go zone. What does it matter? A no go zone is an area the Israeli's can expand and retract at their own will without telling the Palestinians, as the Israeli illegal settlements in the West Bank grow the area around them needs to be cleared, that means going in and destroying Palestinian homes, farms and driving out the Palestinians from their villages.

As they grow, their security zones grow also, so you might find your own home comes under a no-go zone when you've done absolutely nothing wrong.

However the point of the matter is not whether she went into a no-go zone or not, it's that the Israeli soldiers identified her as a child who they thought was as young as 10 years old, a scared little girl and they still brutally executed her in cold blood. The sickening fact is that no one was held accountable for this and that people like FD and Mozza seem to like to lay the blame on the girl and the Palestinians for this when the fault was clearly that of the Israeli soldiers. It proves that people like FD and Mozza believe that Muslims, Arabs and non whites are subhuman and don't deserve even the simplest of human rights.

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abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #333 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 7:22am

Quote:

I don't know where "there" is but I note that FD mentioned that she was in a "no-go zone".

I didn't see it written in any of the information Malik posted. So it would appear freediver is just making this assumption merely because Israeli soldiers wouldn't possibly shoot in a non no-go zone, would they?

This is urban warfare, in case you haven't noticed there's not a lot of land there, Gaza and West Bank are very thin strips of land, Gaza more so. The Israeli army are almost constantly firing in civilian areas, because they're fighting against a civilian population, not against a proper state which has it's own army. Yeh I know, they're terrorists and use schools as sniper positions and hide in civilian areas to draw the fire of Israeli soldiers on their own population and they love to use human shields blah blah blah.

Quote:

Nevertheless, I think you are falling into the trap in the sense that you (Muslims) believe that you are cut off and alone in the experience of battles, persecutions and war zones and that no one can understand the Palestinian plight except for Muslims

Certainly not, there are plenty of non-Muslims also caught up in conflict.

Quote:

By "you people" I assume you mean the infidels.

Well I did disclude muso from that, since he did not make any such comment about her being in the wrong area or attempt to justify why they might have murdered her. Unless he's suddenly made a surprise conversion, then no, I didn't mean you infidels as a whole.

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freediver

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #334 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 8:22am

Ever heard of Rabbi Meir Kahane? Do some research.

You are completely missing the point again Malik. I'm not saying the Israelis are all peace loving and all the Arabs are war mongerers. I'm just saying that your assertion of the opposite is equally absurd.

BECAUSE THEY WERE SHOOTING AT HER!!! WOULDN'T YOU BE SCARED!?

Wasn't she scared before they were shooting at her?

What's your point FD?

I'm asking a question, that's all.

What she was doing there in the first place or why she was scared is irrelevant.

No it isn't. Others have gone to great lengths to point out that what she was doing was entirely innocent. It's hardly irrelevant.

It doesn't excuse the manner in which she was killed (17 bullets in her torso including 3 in the head).

Dead is dead. It makes no difference how many times they kill her.

The Palestinians may have their mortar rockets and bomb belts but the Israelis are trigger happy and have a shoot first mentality.

So would I if I was in their situation.

Either let them live under an Islamic State as Muslims Christians and Jews did for more than a thousand years in peace and happiness together or send them back to Europe

Why not let them live in their choice of state? Why do you need to conquer them? Didn't you say you were for a two state solution? In fact, you just posted this:

The Arab Peace Initiative has been signed be the leader of every Arab State.
They are all willing to have peace with Israel. Israel doesn't want peace.

Do you really expect the Israelis to trust such claims when the same people who put the Arab initiatives on a pedestal go on to call for Israel to be conquered in a holy war or the people driven out? You also posted this:

It's the Israeli's and radical Jews within it that wish to drive the Arabs out of most of the Middle East and establish the 'Greater Israel'. They are becoming more and more popular and want to do that through force.

Isn't that a bit hypocritical? You are projecting onto Israelis the same extremist views that you hold.

The sickening fact is that no one was held accountable for this and that people like FD and Mozza seem to like to lay the blame on the girl

Didn't I just finish saying that I don't, in my previous post?

It proves that people like FD and Mozza believe that Muslims, Arabs and non whites are subhuman and don't deserve even the simplest of human rights.

Malik didn't you just accept that this sort of thing is inappropriate? Didn't you criticise sprint for ages for doing the same thing?

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Malik Shakur

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #335 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 9:41am

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 8:22am:

Ever heard of Rabbi Meir Kahane? Do some research.

You are completely missing the point again Malik. I'm not saying the Israelis are all peace loving and all the Arabs are war mongerers. I'm just saying that your assertion of the opposite is equally absurd.

That's what you seem to miss the point on FD, ever heard of the Hilltop Youth? Kach movement? or any of the other numerous Kahanist movements who believe that Israel is their land and God gave it to them so it's their job to run the Palestinians out of their own land? We're not talking about Israel here, we're talking about the occupied territories held by Israel in particular the West bank and previously the Gaza Strip. These settlements are illegal according to the UN and Israel hasn't stopped building them. They steal all of the resources from the Palestinians and shoot randomly into the Palestinian land and terrorize the Palestinians. It's the settlers there who I'm talking about.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 8:22am:

BECAUSE THEY WERE SHOOTING AT HER!!! WOULDN'T YOU BE SCARED!?

Wasn't she scared before they were shooting at her?

Why should she be? Even Palestinian children have the right to be care free and not have to worry about getting shot.. Especially little girls.
freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 8:22am:

What she was doing there in the first place or why she was scared is irrelevant.

No it isn't. Others have gone to great lengths to point out that what she was doing was entirely innocent. It's hardly irrelevant.

She was wandering around on her way to school. It is irrelevant because the Israeli's even admit she was on her way to school and in her school bag were text books.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 8:22am:

It doesn't excuse the manner in which she was killed (17 bullets in her torso including 3 in the head).

Dead is dead. It makes no difference how many times they kill her.

The way one kills another person does matter, a court always takes it into account.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 8:22am:

The Palestinians may have their mortar rockets and bomb belts but the Israelis are trigger happy and have a shoot first mentality.

So would I if I was in their situation.

So you'd shoot a little Palestinian girl who you thought was scared and less than 10 years old even after you have found out she hasn't got a bomb in her bag?

Figures...

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 8:22am:

Either let them live under an Islamic State as Muslims Christians and Jews did for more than a thousand years in peace and happiness together or send them back to Europe

Why not let them live in their choice of state? Why do you need to conquer them? Didn't you say you were for a two state solution? In fact, you just posted this:

The Arab Peace Initiative has been signed be the leader of every Arab State.
They are all willing to have peace with Israel. Israel doesn't want peace.

Do you really expect the Israelis to trust such claims when the same people who put the Arab initiatives on a pedestal go on to call for Israel to be conquered in a holy war or the people driven out? You also posted this:

I'm for a 2 state solution but Israel refuses to accept the Arab Peace initiative, if they aren't willing to accept it then we aren't waiting another 60 years for the Palestinians to suffer more oppression and genocide.. Enough is enough!

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 8:22am:

It's the Israeli's and radical Jews within it that wish to drive the Arabs out of most of the Middle East and establish the 'Greater Israel'. They are becoming more and more popular and want to do that through force.

Isn't that a bit hypocritical? You are projecting onto Israelis the same extremist views that you hold.

The difference between an Islamic State and a Greater Israel is that we wont remove the Jews and Christians from the Middle East. The Jews however consider it Holy Land and want to remove all the infidels from it, that means moving all Christians and Muslims out of most of the Middle East.

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 8:22am:

The sickening fact is that no one was held accountable for this and that people like FD and Mozza seem to like to lay the blame on the girl

Didn't I just finish saying that I don't, in my previous post?

It proves that people like FD and Mozza believe that Muslims, Arabs and non whites are subhuman and don't deserve even the simplest of human rights.

Malik didn't you just accept that this sort of thing is inappropriate? Didn't you criticise sprint for ages for doing the same thing?

You said you don't. But by your posts it shows that you wouldn't give he Palestinians or Muslims the same rights as you'd expect yourself.

It's easy to just say things because they are politically correct FD, but your actual true feelings become far more apparent in your posts.

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mozzaok

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #336 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 10:34am

Talk about thick.
Perhaps you are a 'Thick Sheik', as your posts would indicate.

You display all the attributes of the typical, delusional, religious, reactionary.

You read, but do not comprehend, unless it falls within the parameters of your prejudiced view of the situation.

You keep saying I blame the girl who was shot, but I don't.
I do however lay significant blame on the sick religious zealots who teach children to use violence, and be used for violence, as a political weapon.
You however want to deny the fact that Islamic extremists do teach, and use children, to perpetrate acts of violence.
Yet you only apportion blame on the Israelis' side, don't you think they have had to bury children caught up in this nightmare too?

You continue to give the impression that you believe any act of violence is justified to unite muslims under an Islamic theocracy.

You even go so far as to say Israel should just submit to being changed to an Islamic theocracy, and then everything will be magically alright, this is so obviously deluded thinking, to all, except Islamic extremists.

Acid pointed out that western media does not give the same attention to Israeli violence as it does to Palestinian violence, and there may be some validity to that argument, for people who rely on tabloid journalism for their information, but it is too broad an assumption to then suggest that people who do not agree that palestinians should be firing rockets into Israel, and using kids as suicide bombers, are somehow ill informed in forming those opinions.

While we see supporters of Islamic Jihadism, adding confusion to the issues, by calling for Islamic theocracy, in the same breath as palestinian autonomy, their delusional concept of what an Islamic theocracy will bring, only adds to the improbability of working towards a peaceful resolution.

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Acid Monkey

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #337 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 10:45am

Malik & Abu,

You assume too much about me.

I've already said that I well aware of war zones, urban warfare etc etc. I also know the size of Gaza, the Golan Heights and the West Bank. I've been to Israel and have actually seen those areas although I wasn't allowed to go to the mustawtanaat (I think that I've spelled that correctly - I have trouble pronouncing it) outside the Green Line.

Sure, I agree that Malik never mentioned no-go zone. However, FD did and I was responding to FD, not Malik. My comment was in the contex of his assumption.

You cannot debate issues by shouting at each other or by simply quoting facts and doctrine. You have to tear down prejudices and assumptions one by one - slowly, by addressing them in the context and language they know.

You are saying that they appear to be blaming the girl for being there (wherever there is). Sure, "there" is irrevalent - there is no "there" because it is everytwhere. Nevertheless, they believe in the existence of a "there". Leaving that aside for a minute - I'm addressing one issue at a time - the girl was killed for whatever reason (some twisted logic in the soldier's mind perhaps). If they think that she was at the wrong place at the wrong time then lets address the fact that even if she was at the wrong place she still shouldn't have been killed. Once that idea and the gravity of the act has been grasp then lets address the other assumption about war zones, no-go zones, arbitary Green Lines and Green Zones (Iraq) - that she wasn't at a wrong place because there is no such thing as a wrong place in her context.

Guys, gentle persuasion - hence my coastline metaphor. Otherwise (as Abu have said) you're wasting your breath and might as well agree to disagree, pack up, go home and save everyone the aggravation.

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freediver

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #338 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 10:57am

Why should she be?

Perhaps she knew she was in the wrong place. The question was no0t whether she should be scared, the question was why was she so scared?

She was wandering around on her way to school. It is irrelevant because the Israeli's even admit she was on her way to school and in her school bag were text books.

That's a bit misleading. Yes she was on her way to school, but she obviously took a bit of a detour.

The way one kills another person does matter, a court always takes it into account.

She was already dead. Either way she was shot.

So you'd shoot a little Palestinian girl who you thought was scared and less than 10 years old even after you have found out she hasn't got a bomb in her bag?

Figures...

Did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm for a 2 state solution but Israel refuses to accept the Arab Peace initiative

But you also say Israel should be conquered by Islam. You're not making much sense Malik.

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Acid Monkey

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #339 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 11:26am

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 14^th, 2008 at 7:22am:

Quote:

Nevertheless, I think you are falling into the trap in the sense that you (Muslims) believe that you are cut off and alone in the experience of battles, persecutions and war zones and that no one can understand the Palestinian plight except for Muslims

Certainly not, there are plenty of non-Muslims also caught up in conflict.

Quote:

By "you people" I assume you mean the infidels.

Well I did disclude muso from that, since he did not make any such comment about her being in the wrong area or attempt to justify why they might have murdered her. Unless he's suddenly made a surprise conversion, then no, I didn't mean you infidels as a whole.

Just curious Abu - have you been there? Has Malik? I asked because you both speak with great authority on this subject and that you've indicated in your response that non-Muslims are also caught up in the conflict. Of course, the reason for your indigantion is understandable.

I confess that I've never been there. The closest I come to it was in Israel when I stared off into the distance with a pair of binoculars. Unless you came from there, have been there, have experience it first hand then your authority on the political and human impact aspects of the subject is the same as mine.

I believe that by "you people" you mean western non-Muslims (because you assume that western Muslims half a world away from Palestine would know intimately of the situation.)

However, don't assume that just because I am a non-Muslim (an infidel) that I am not empathetic to or understand the situation "on the ground" or understand the grievance of the Palestinians. Don't assume that only Muslims are disgusted with such injustices. Don't assume that only non-Muslims that are "caught up in the conflict" know what is going on and that other non-Muslims don't.

This where both sides of the arguments falter - you all assume too much about what the otherside thinks. I generalise that Muslims are suffering the same affliction as the Jews - both believe that only they know their own situation and that no one else cares. How often have we've heard "You don't understand. What would you know? You're not a (Jew/Muslim)"

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« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2008 at 11:43am by Acid Monkey »

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mozzaok

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #340 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 11:49am

I am so sick of people wanting to have their wrongness respected.
Blow the sympathy and understanding, blow the tolerance for their beliefs, irrespective of their validity, or rationality.
Idiocy is deserving of derision, be it christian, muslim, or any other conglomeration of beliefs, based on myopic dark age fantasy constructs.
If people want to be respected, then stop preaching delusional religious garbage.
Stop perpetrating acts of violence in the name of a stated religious ideal.

Behave like a rational, compassionate, peaceful, caring person, and then you will not need to demand respect, it will be given without question.

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Acid Monkey Gold Member Offline Goth Father Posts: 1064 EU Gender:	Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE Reply #341 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 11:56am I've always scoffed at the phrase "one commands respect" - one should never expect respect - one earns it.
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abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #342 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 5:40pm

Quote:

Behave like a rational, compassionate, peaceful, caring person, and then you will not need to demand respect, it will be given without question.

Quite rich coming from someone who just tried to justify the excessively brutal murder of a little girl, and in fact not only her, but probably tens of thousands more like her who've died in pretty much the same manner for the past 60 years and then attempted to place blame on the victim herself or her family or compatriots.

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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE Reply #343 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 5:47pm Abu, you are a mindless drone, incapable of rational thought. What are you? Are you aussie, as previously alluded, or are you palestinian, or are you just a friggin goose?
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abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #344 - Jul 14^th, 2008 at 5:51pm

Acid,

Quote:

Just curious Abu - have you been there? Has Malik?

Having been there or not having been there is pretty much irrelevant. I'm sure there's hundreds, if not thousands of scholars worldwide who have ten times the amount of knowledge of all of us summed together about the situation there, who've never been there.

Likewise I'm sure there's so many people who live right there in the thick of it, yet are oblivious to a lot of the stuff we've discussed here.

Proximity to an event/situation doesn't always give one a better perspective on the situation.

Quote:

Unless you came from there, have been there, have experience it first hand then your authority on the political and human impact aspects of the subject is the same as mine.

Not necessarily. The situation there has been of great interest to me for about the past 9-10 years, and I have met with many people who live there, who were expelled from there, who never even went within 1000 km of the place, but their entire ancestry is there. A great deal of my close friends are in fact Palestinians, I can't speak for you, but it doesn't sound like the cause of the Palestinians has had as much of an impact on your life as it has mine. Perhaps it has? I don't know, I can't speak for you.

Quote:

I believe that by "you people" you mean western non-Muslims (because you assume that western Muslims half a world away from Palestine would know intimately of the situation.)

As I said muso was discluded from that, and most of your posts would disclude you from it also. You explained that you were just quoting freediver, not actual trying to justify her murder, so I don't include you in it By 'you people' I meant the people who were justifying this crime.

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