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ISRAEL/PALESTINE (Read 86216 times)
muso
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #300 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 5:02pm
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 2:50pm:
There IS a Jewish ethnicity and the Khazars are NOT Jews, therefore have no claim to the land.



Judaism is traditionally a matrilinear heritage. There is no such thing as Jewish blood. Do you want a basic lesson in genetics and mitochondrial DNA?

"Numerous Israelites heroes and kings married foreign women: for example, Judah married a Canaanite, Joseph an Egyptian, Moses a Midianite and an Ethiopian, David a Philistine, and Solomon women of every description. By her marriage with an Israelite man a foreign women joined the clan, people, and religion of her husband. It never occurred to anyone in pre-exilic times to argue that such marriages were null and void, that foreign women must "convert" to Judaism, or that the off-spring of the marriage were not Israelite if the women did not convert."  American Psychological Association (APA): Shaye_J._D._Cohen.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #301 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 5:06pm
 
When did the Palestinians use bullying tactics to move Christians out of Bethlehem? The Christians in Bethlehem are mostly Palestinians and don't like being occupied just as much as the Muslims.

You're right, those Israeli's are born there. They can stay there, but if they aren't willing to have a two state solution that is on the table.

That is:
Quote:
http://www.jordanembassyus.org/arab_initiative.htm

The Arab Peace Initiative

The Council of the League of Arab States at the Summit Level, at its 14th Ordinary Session,

Reaffirms the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo extraordinary Arab summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government.
Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah Bin Abdullaziz, the crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in which his highness presented his initiative, calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land for peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state, with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel.
Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

       a. Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights to the lines of June 4, 1967 as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

       b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

       c. The acceptance of the establishment of a Sovereign Independent Palestinian State on the Palestinian territories occupied since the 4th of June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza strip, with east Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

       a. Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

       b. Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries.

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab Countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighborliness and provide future generations with security, stability, and prosperity.

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organizations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the security council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim States and the European Union.


If the Israeli's refuse then the Muslim world needs to unite and then not only take the land by force. But take ALL of the land and then the Jews can live protected under an Islamic State. We can't and wont wait another 60 years.. The Palestinians have been through far too much.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #302 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 5:20pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 5:02pm:
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 2:50pm:
There IS a Jewish ethnicity and the Khazars are NOT Jews, therefore have no claim to the land.



Judaism is traditionally a matrilinear heritage. There is no such thing as Jewish blood. Do you want a basic lesson in genetics and mitochondrial DNA?

"Numerous Israelites heroes and kings married foreign women: for example, Judah married a Canaanite, Joseph an Egyptian, Moses a Midianite and an Ethiopian, David a Philistine, and Solomon women of every description. By her marriage with an Israelite man a foreign women joined the clan, people, and religion of her husband. It never occurred to anyone in pre-exilic times to argue that such marriages were null and void, that foreign women must "convert" to Judaism, or that the off-spring of the marriage were not Israelite if the women did not convert."  American Psychological Association (APA): Shaye_J._D._Cohen.

Ever heard of the 12 tribes of Judea? The tribes that originated from the sons of Jacob pbut? They are the true Israelites or Bani Israel.
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freediver
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #303 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 5:36pm
 
Malik you are missing the point. Why does the fact that it is a secular state rather than a theocracy make any difference to whether you would tolerate it's existence? Since when do you get to decide how other states work? If it is a separate state, then it is not part of your beloved Caliphate and does not have to run by your rules.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #304 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:20pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 5:36pm:
Malik you are missing the point. Why does the fact that it is a secular state rather than a theocracy make any difference to whether you would tolerate it's existence? Since when do you get to decide how other states work? If it is a separate state, then it is not part of your beloved Caliphate and does not have to run by your rules.

YOU are the one who doesn't see the point there. It's not about how I would tolerate it, nor about how abu_rashid would either. It's about the myth that they have the right to the land because it's their 'promised land' mentioned in the Bible. If it was their promised land and they were truly religious then they would run that land according to the criteria set out in the Torah.

The fact that they have no ethnic connection to the land and that they are secular and don't practice Judaism shows that they have no right to that land. Even the Jews that were there before the European Jews came didn't want them to come and establish a State because the very idea of them doing so is blasphemous.

It's hypocracy that Indigenous Australians only get native title claims looked at if they are from that area, keep their culture and connection with the land. Yet the Europeans not only had no connection to the land but their culture and traditions are Europeans and their way of ruling the land doesn't even fulfil the criteria of the Torah but still according to the West has the right to be there because it's their 'promised land'.

It shows the fact that even if you wont say it, you and the rest of the West believe that white Europeans have more rights to anything on this earth than a non white, non European and everyone else but non white Europeans are subhuman.

Go and ask how any real Shephardic Jew, Yemeni Jew, Ethiopian Jew gets treated in Israel and you'll find that the European Jews are completely racist against them and treat them like they are nothing.

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freediver
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #305 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:36pm
 
It's about the myth that they have the right to the land because it's their 'promised land' mentioned in the Bible.

They have a right to the land because they are human beings.

If it was their promised land and they were truly religious then they would run that land according to the criteria set out in the Torah.

Even if it was about the holy land, it would still not be your place to judge whether they are sufficiently pious. Otherwise you would have to expect the Arabs to set up a proper Islamic state before they had any right to own land in the middle east.

The fact that they have no ethnic connection to the land and that they are secular and don't practice Judaism shows that they have no right to that land.

No it doesn't. You are applying a standard to them that you would not accept for anyone else.

This whole concept of who has the religious justification to own land is the cause of the problem, not the solution. You need to think outside of that box if you are to solve the problem.
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #306 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:39pm
 
Abu, you speak as if you are a deceitful, apologist for terrorism.
You do not even seem to know who you are, or where you belong.

You and Malik display your hatred for Israel openly, and justify it because you claim they stole "your' land.
Malik posts about a young girl being shot, as if she is the only innocent victim in this ridiculous struggle.
You do not accept that any blame for the incident should be lain at the feet of the Islamic extremists who use children for violence.

I am no fan of Israel, but I do think they have the right to exist, and I do believe that as long as crazy muslims keep attacking them, they will retaliate mercilessly.

Are muslims so blinded by their religious bigotry as to be unable to face these realities.

Was the girl who died so different from the one in this photo?
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Malik Shakur
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #307 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:36pm:
They have a right to the land because they are human beings.


Wow, ok what a criteria. Lets use your logic.

I'm human so I have the right to the land too. So give me your house and all of your wealth. Australia now belongs to me. Get out and live in ghettos.

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:36pm:
Even if it was about the holy land, it would still not be your place to judge whether they are sufficiently pious. Otherwise you would have to expect the Arabs to set up a proper Islamic state before they had any right to own land in the middle east.

It's BECAUSE the Muslims stopped being as pious as they should and stopped having an Islamic state that we lost our land. I can assure you that when we bring back the Islamic State (God willing) and if Israel refuses to accept the deal that we will take all of it by force and they can either go back to Europe where they belong or live under the Islamic State.

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:36pm:
No it doesn't. You are applying a standard to them that you would not accept for anyone else.

Not true at all.

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:36pm:
This whole concept of who has the religious justification to own land is the cause of the problem, not the solution. You need to think outside of that box if you are to solve the problem.


So then get rid of Israel, that's what the European Jews claim to the land is.. Purely religious.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #308 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 7:04pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:39pm:
 
Was the girl who died so different from the one in this photo? 

The only similarities that they were both Palestinians, both young and both Girls.

Your post just goes to show that you beleive in profiling and collective punishment. You see all palestinian little girls as being terrorists who should be shot.

That's exactly what I mean.. You believe anyone who is not a white European is sub human. Because you'd never accept me using the same standard of judgement in judging white European non Muslims. Because by your logic I could quite easily say how is any Israeli different from an Israeli soldier, in fact I'd be far more accurate to say that because ALL Israeli's serve in their army and thus according to your logic would make it completely acceptable to not only kill every adult Israeli, but every little Israeli child because they would grow up to join the army and oppress the Palestinians.

But lucky I don't think like you and don't believe all Israeli's should be killed, unlike you who believe all little palestinian girls should be killed.

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abu_rashid
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #309 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 7:05pm
 
Quote:
Was the girl who died so different from the one in this photo?


All Palestinian kids who have ever died are exactly like that girl in this photo, and they therefore deserve to be filled with lead like that the other girl was.

Is this what you believe?

And then you've got the gaul to come and accuse me of being a spokesperson for terrorism? You are a spokesperson for this terrorism, you are a justifier of terrible atrocities, and you are a condoner of the senseless murder of little kids, who were probably just walking peacefully to school when the filthy animals you are protecting, murdered her in nothing but pure cold blood.

Really I don't know how despicable people like you can lay down with yourselves and goto sleep at night, after trying to justify and normalise actions like this.

And you're not far behind him freediver, I'm truly sickened by the way you people can so callously try to explain away why these animals murdered a defenceless little kid like that.
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #310 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 7:10pm
 
muso,

Quote:
I think I've stated from the start that I would rather not see any more deaths. To me a death like this is senseless.


You are one of the few people in this thread who's maintained their position of dignity throughout this discussion.

In which case I think it's up to you to condemn the comments of freediver and mozzaok as not representative of moderate secularists.
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mozzaok
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #311 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 7:40pm
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 7:04pm:
mozzaok wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:39pm:
 
Was the girl who died so different from the one in this photo? 

The only similarities that they were both Palestinians, both young and both Girls.

Your post just goes to show that you beleive in profiling and collective punishment. You see all palestinian little girls as being terrorists who should be shot.

That's exactly what I mean.. You believe anyone who is not a white European is sub human. Because you'd never accept me using the same standard of judgement in judging white European non Muslims. Because by your logic I could quite easily say how is any Israeli different from an Israeli soldier, in fact I'd be far more accurate to say that because ALL Israeli's serve in their army and thus according to your logic would make it completely acceptable to not only kill every adult Israeli, but every little Israeli child because they would grow up to join the army and oppress the Palestinians.

But lucky I don't think like you and don't believe all Israeli's should be killed, unlike you who believe all little palestinian girls should be killed.


Are you that big a zealot Malik?
I would never allow any child to involve themselves willingly in acts of violence.

It is only the religious fruitcakes who don't believe this life is all we have, their delusions of a better life in death allows them to condone their perversions.

Sick buggerers.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #312 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 8:00pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 7:40pm:
Are you that big a zealot Malik?
I would never allow any child to involve themselves willingly in acts of violence.

It is only the religious fruitcakes who don't believe this life is all we have, their delusions of a better life in death allows them to condone their perversions.

Sick buggerers.

The girl Iman who was killed was not involved in any act of violence mate. It states that clearly in all the newspapers and media articles. Even the Israeli military admitted that. Yet they killed her anyway, they shot her more than 17 times including 3 shots in the head!

A little girl! And you want to lay the blame on her and the Palestinians!? Come on mate..

Palestinian children don't have a choice about being involved in violence, that violence is brought onto them by the Israeli's. Their exposure to it is not dependent as to whether they throw stones or not, but is guaranteed because of the Israeli treatment of them. It's the constant checkpoints where Palestinians have to wait in line for hours at a time to go from one village to another, where they are humiliated and degraded, it's the US Supplied Apache gunships that are being used to rocket Palestinian schools and houses, It's the Israeli snipers who shoot little girls sitting at their desks at the UN Schools there. It's the Israeli's who bring the violence to the Palestinian children and force it on them from birth, but again.. Your superiority complex doesn't allow you to use logic here..

How very typical of you.

Malcolm X (May God be pleased with him) said it clear in his message to the grass roots and he was right:

There's nothing in our book, the Quran -- you call it "Ko-ran" -- that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion. In fact, that's that old-time religion. That's the one that Ma and Pa used to talk about: an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, and a head for a head, and a life for a life: That's a good religion. And doesn't nobody resent that kind of religion being taught but a wolf, who intends to make you his meal.

You Mozza, and all of those self righteous apologists for the Israelis and Occupiers are the wolves, you expect us to say nothing while you occupy our lands, kill our people and oppress us. Don't ever expect us to suffer peacefully so that you can have your way with our lands. Cowards like you don't have the guts to meet the Muslims on the battlefield, instead you launch missles from kilometers away, you shoot children armed with stones.

The fact remains that those children who throw the stones are far braver than a coward like you hiding behind your monitor and judging, far braver than those in the occupying armies are. Because those kids have absolutely nothing yet they still go out and fight with whatever they have.

You disgust me, your total lack of  sense of justice and your superiority complex is exactly the reason why Palestinians sadly turn to suicide bombing. They don't have the weapons to fight and the rest of the world sits by and allows them to suffer, so what do you expect?

When you take away a peoples dignity, you then take away their will to live and patience.

The oppression for so many years created suicide bombing and terrorism.
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #313 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 8:40pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:39pm:
I am no fan of Israel, but I do think they have the right to exist, and I do believe that as long as crazy muslims keep attacking them, they will retaliate mercilessly.



True, and I agree Mozz. Israel is as much a culprit in the middle east conflict.

However, as long as the West continues to stand back and allow the atrocities perpertrated by them the "crazy muslims" will keep attacking them. Its a two-way street.

mozzaok wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 6:39pm:
Was the girl who died so different from the one in this photo?


Does anyone see the irony of this photo? The girl is displaying the peace sign while brandishing a bomb belt.
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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #314 - Jul 13th, 2008 at 8:53pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 13th, 2008 at 3:01pm:
You're wasting your breath on these heartless people.



Your breath is not wasted if you can change the opinion of just one person. It is achieved by tirelessly reiterating your logical point over and over again. Entire coastline are altered by the gentle persuasion of water against its shore. It a long process but it will happen.

I've have had my stance altered by reasonable argument and debate. However, any display of emotion will automatically nullify any good points made.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Smiley
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