Australian Politics Forum - ISRAEL/PALESTINE

abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #240 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 10:53am

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Ok. So it's got to be Islamic rule? I think you'll find that there are a great many moderates in Israel who actually oppose Zionism. (The so-called secular Jews)

Umm, many Zionists are actually secularists. Zionism is not really a religious ideology, and in fact there are ultra-orthodox Jewish movements like Neturei Karta for instance that are strictly anti-Zionist.

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If you (hypothetically) allowed them to stay, Islam would be a minority religion.

I can't for the life of me work out how you came to that conclusion... I guess you thought we'd leave the wall up? Grin

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he majority of people in Bethlehem were Christians up until relatively recent times. Now it's down to 15%.

Actually if you look at the overall picture, with statistics from 1900 up until the modern day, you'll find Christian populations diminished in line with the increase in Jewish population.

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A great many injustices have been done on both sides in that part of the world.

I'm sorry, but I don't remember any Palestinians flying over to Poland or UK or USA and committing atrocities against Jews. The Jews forcefully immigrated into Palestine and committed the atrocities, after about 20-30 years of silent suffering, the Palestinians finally began to really fight back, and now you claim it's even on both sides? Go take a history lesson.

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muso

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #241 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 11:23am

I didn't claim that it's even on both sides. It's enough to say that many atrocities have been committed. including the killing of innocent people by rocket attacks and suicide bombers.

It doesn't really interest me what religion people follow. I am against all suffering. I'm not interested in some kind of hypothetical set of scales where you put the bodies of innocent Palestinians on one side and Israelis on the other.

It sickens me when people think that justice will only come from retribution and that one act of obscene carnage can only be absolved by another.

It's no better in the OT - An Eye for an Eye , a Tooth for a Tooth.

This is exactly the kind of obscene mentality that leads to war.

Of course Abrahamic religions don't have a monopoly on it.

Not quite.

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mozzaok

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #242 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 11:24am

Unfortunately muso, there are none so blind, as the quote says.

Sprint, in his anti-muslim campaign says, scratch a muslim, find an Islamist, while that may be a gross over simplification, the fact is that people are generally supportive of one side or the other, and often seek to justify the actions of their side, irrespective of the logical, and ethical arguments offered.
Abu is a pretty clear example of this, he seems to consider himself moderate, I believe he says is aussie born, but his loyalties are to an armed struggle for the imposition of theocratic Islamic regimes throughout the world.

In the west we generally consider the extreme evangelical/pentecostal christian types as nutters, well they are a relatively small percentage of the overall christian population, with muslims, that degree of nuttiness is displayed by a far greater percentage, as displayed by our two moderate muslim posters here.

They have pronounced support for Iran, and that Israel has no right to exist.

Even moderate muslims seem very lacking in tolerance.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41788 Gender:	Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE Reply #243 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 12:10pm Mozzaok - just to give you an extra laugh - I am one of the pentecostal nutters !!! Though that'ld cheer you up
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abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #244 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 12:25pm

muso,

Quote:

I didn't claim that it's even on both sides. It's enough to say that many atrocities have been committed. including the killing of innocent people by rocket attacks and suicide bombers

Again, the Palestinians didn't goto Poland or Lithuania and start bombing or rocketing Jews, they came to our land, and are militarily occupying it.

Do you not think people have a right to defend their homes and their land against an invading aggressor? If China were to invade Australia, would you feel Aussies have a right to resist physically? If they brought in millions of civilians to be the front line of establishing that invasion, would you condemn those who fought against them?

mozza,

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Abu is a pretty clear example of this, he seems to consider himself moderate

If by moderate you refer to the Rand report's definition and classification of Muslims, then I'm definitely no moderate.

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I believe he says is aussie born, but his loyalties are to an armed struggle for the imposition of theocratic Islamic regimes throughout the world.

I'm an Australian citizen, my loyalties are to Australia. Never have I indicated otherwise.

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They have pronounced support for Iran

You've lost all credibility here mate. Unless you'd like to fumble back through my posts and find a reference for that, consider yourself discredited.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53184 At my desk.	Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE Reply #245 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 12:27pm The vast majority of the 7.5 million people living in Israel have no contact with the countries you are suggesting relocating them to Not our business, they shouldn't have come to begin with. Uh, yes it is Abu, otherwise you are a hypocrit and are doing exactly what the western powers did in establishing Israel.
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mozzaok

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #246 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 12:50pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 10^th, 2008 at 12:10pm:

Mozzaok - just to give you an extra laugh - I am one of the pentecostal nutters !!!

Though that'ld cheer you up

You did give a laugh with that one sprint, that is funny.
I still reckon you are a bloke with a good heart, who is looking for answers.
Would it be rude to suggest you keep looking?

Have you checked out Taoist philosophies?

Big old buddha had some great words of wisdom too, though I do wonder how much a 35 stone asian can teach about self discipline?
Must've been glandular Grin

Some reckon the best bits of christianity, were borrowed from buddhist teachings, then again the best bits of all religions usually have damn fine messages.(it's the other 95% I struggle with)

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muso

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #247 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 1:27pm

mozzaok wrote on Jul 10^th, 2008 at 11:24am:

Unfortunately muso, there are none so blind, as the quote says.

Sprint, in his anti-muslim campaign says, scratch a muslim, find an Islamist, while that may be a gross over simplification, the fact is that people are generally supportive of one side or the other, and often seek to justify the actions of their side, irrespective of the logical, and ethical arguments offered.
Abu is a pretty clear example of this, he seems to consider himself moderate, I believe he says is aussie born, but his loyalties are to an armed struggle for the imposition of theocratic Islamic regimes throughout the world.

In the west we generally consider the extreme evangelical/pentecostal christian types as nutters, well they are a relatively small percentage of the overall christian population, with muslims, that degree of nuttiness is displayed by a far greater percentage, as displayed by our two moderate muslim posters here.

They have pronounced support for Iran, and that Israel has no right to exist.

Even moderate muslims seem very lacking in tolerance.

I hear you, but as far as war goes, I still think it's just a human attribute, albeit a very sad one.

One-sided religion-inspired views of the cosmos still grate on my sensibility, but I honestly think that war has more to do with testosterone than religion, and that war is analogous to rape in that respect. If there was no religion, people would find other excuses to be violent against each other.

Unfortunately when it comes to war humanity still seems unable to keep their collective zippers fastened.

We have a lot of growing to do as a species.

Anybody know Robert Burns' poetry?

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion!"

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easel Gold Member Offline Posts: 3120	Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE Reply #248 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 1:35pm I feel bad for Palestine mainly because the British PM at the time of creation said he wants to make another Ulster in the middle east.
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abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #249 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 1:45pm

mozza,

Quote:

Have you checked out Taoist philosophies?
Big old buddha had some great words of wisdom too

I've always laughed at how secularists and atheists in Western countries often promote Taoism, Buddhism, Paganism, Falun Dafa etc. as "more acceptable" religious expressions. If you were sitting back with your co-secularists in Beijing, I don't think you'd be taking the same line.

Because those religions are a tiny minority here, their "ancient wisdoms" can be appreciated without any threat, whilst Christianity and Islam and other major world religions, which have equally as valuable or even more valuable principles are considered unacceptable.

I also notice you completely ignored the issue of Iran in that last post, too busy off searching for a post containing my alleged support for Iran?

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muso

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #250 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 1:53pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 10^th, 2008 at 1:45pm:

I've always laughed at how secularists and atheists in Western countries often promote Taoism, Buddhism, Paganism, Falun Dafa etc. as "more acceptable" religious expressions. If you were sitting back with your co-secularists in Beijing, I don't think you'd be taking the same line.

I laugh how Muslims can criticise lack of human rights in China and be totally blind to what's going on in Iran, Saudi and most other countries that are mainly Muslim.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #251 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 1:58pm

mozzaok - I can't think of one thing you have said that is rude.
I, like many athiests, think God is way bigger than any single church, or even belief.

Yes, one of my brothers had a taoist .... encounter a few years ago.
I really liked what he sent me - they had great laughter exercises.
He and I laugh a lot over the phone.

Muso - could be a lot in what you say there. That wars have more to do with testestosteone.
Even with no religions, I reckon some would still find a reason to pillage and loot others.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53184 At my desk.	Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE Reply #252 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 2:14pm Abu, would you like to start a new thread about the dangers of those 'eastern' religions?
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abu_rashid

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Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE
Reply #253 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 2:23pm

muso,

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I laugh how Muslims can criticise lack of human rights in China and be totally blind to what's going on in Iran, Saudi and most other countries that are mainly Muslim

Are you for real? Considering we're mostly the victims of it, we're more likely to be the ones criticising it. Western governments prop up and support those regimes and fund them to commit those atrocities against their Muslim populations, now there's a story!

If you wanna go down that road, I'm quite happy to oblige. Mubarak, Karimov, Hussein etc. all Western allies and all well known perpetrators of massive acts of brutality and murder against their Muslim populations.

freediver,

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Abu, would you like to start a new thread about the dangers of those 'eastern' religions?

Unlike you, I have a cordial respect for other religions, and would prefer not to waste my time attacking and defaming them.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53184 At my desk.	Re: ISRAEL/PALESTINE Reply #254 - Jul 10^th, 2008 at 2:30pm Then why did you claim that we only appreciate the value of those religions because we are unfamiliar with them? Is that not a criticism? Or do you just draw the line at backing up your claims? I am not attacking Islam. I am asking questions about it. If I have said anything wrong about it, feel free to point out the error.
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