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ISRAEL/PALESTINE (Read 86207 times)
freediver
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #210 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 11:30am
 
Just about every religion has done that at some point in history.
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #211 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 11:42am
 
As far as I know, any of those actions is against any other belief system.
those things may have been done at some point in history, if so, they were not following their belief.

unlike muslims, where if they should wage a jihad, otherwise they are not following their belief.
is why it has always been done by muslims
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #212 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:21pm
 
skeptic and freediver :

The letter was written by Ramzi Mohammed, who tried to carry out a suicide bomb attack on an underground train near Oval station in south London. Here is the letter:

"First of all I beg Allah to accept this action from me and he to Allah to whom belongs the power and majesty makes it a sincere one and that he admits me to the highest station in paradise for verily he grants martyrdom to whom ever he wills.

Secondly my family don't cry for but instead rejoice in happiness and love what I have done for the sake of Allah for he loves those who fight in his sake.
I pray to Allah the mighty that he keeps your heart sealed to this religion. My family practice your religion and hold tight to the rope of Allah and don't let go. Pray your five daily prayers so that you may be saved from hell and by the permission of Allah I may intercede for you, if he Allah allows to whom belongs the power and the majesty.

My children be good Muslims and obey your mother. Pray your prayers and read Quran. Adam look after your little brother Malik and we shall meet again in paradise god willing. May Allah keep your mothers heart sealed to this religion. Praise be upon you. Gods blessing and mercy.''

Ramzi Mohammed.  "

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22047925-5012763,00.html



Look, he TELLS his family not to cry him and encourages them to do the same.
That is the people you are supporting. What other belief has this as a basis ??



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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #213 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:33pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:21pm:
That is the people you are supporting.


sprintcyclist, who said anything about supporting terrorists?

all we're saying is that
a) Hamas has every right to use cartoons for propaganda purposes, just like we have that very same right.

and

b) not all terrorist attacks throughout history were committed by muslims, so u shouldn't blame all terrorism on that religion.
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #214 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:35pm
 
Sprint, we are not supporting people like that. You wouldn't like it if we said you were a pedophile because you consider yourself a Christian and many priest have been pedophiles. So stop trying to tar all muslims with the same brush. You cannot expect to help solve a complex problem like this by ignoring the obvious psychological and political influences on the people involved. If you treat a group of people like terrorists for long enough, pretty soon they will be.
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #215 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:38pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 11:42am:
As far as I know, any of those actions is against any other belief system.
those things may have been done at some point in history, if so, they were not following their belief.


Not following their belief based on ur interpretation of the relevant holy scripture.

however, terrorists of all religions have been able to use their own interpretation of holy scriptures to justify their terrorist acts.

Quote:
unlike muslims, where if they should wage a jihad, otherwise they are not following their belief.
is why it has always been done by muslims


and i'm pretty sure if u ask a muslim about terrorism, they would say that their religion is a peaceful one that does not condone terrorist attacks. and that the verses from the koran that we show as evidence are being mis-interpreted.

point is, with u being a practising christian, ur hardly objective when u say that christian terrorism is not in accordance with the belief. just in the same way, a muslim guy won't be objective either when talking about muslim terrorism.
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« Last Edit: Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:44pm by skeptic »  
 
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #216 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:40pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:35pm:
If you treat a group of people like terrorists for long enough, pretty soon they will be.


exactly, it's what u call a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #217 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 2:57pm
 
you both support the use of media that encourages terrorism.
ergo, you both support terrorism

Find the  %age of religious terrorist acts NOT committed by muslims. I dare you.
It'ld be way under 2%.

What if ALL of the paedopliles came from a church and it was advocted by the Bible ?
What would you think then ?

ALL the terrorists come from the koran, and it is encouraged and demanded by that.
Of course muslims say that,  what does their actions and the statements from the koran tell you ?
Look up taqiya.
my interperetation of the koran is as hilalis. He knows it pretty well, I would think. Would you ?

Name the christian terrorism and the quotes that support it.

That is not a self fulfilling prophecy at all.  Why make excuses for murderers ??
Why support them ?

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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #218 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 2:58pm
 
No I don't sprint. Quit trying to put words into my mouth.
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #219 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 3:24pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 2:57pm:
you both support the use of media that encourages terrorism.
ergo, you both support terrorism


saying that Hamas has a right to use media doesn't mean that i agree with their message.
they have a right to use media for propaganda purposes, just like we do.  

Quote:
Find the  %age of religious terrorist acts NOT committed by muslims. I dare you.
It'ld be way under 2%.


that's only if u look at the last few years, but if u look throughout history then that % of non-muslim terrorist attacks is much, much, much higher.

Quote:
ALL the terrorists come from the koran, and it is encouraged and demanded by that.


based on ur interpretation of the koran.

Quote:
Of course muslims say that


based on their interpretation of the koran.

Quote:
what does their actions and the statements from the koran tell you ?


well, if ur referring to actions, not all muslims are violent, i reckon the violent ones are a minority of the worldwide muslim population. so going on the actions of the non-violent majority, then i can conclude islam is not a violent religion.  

and with the statement from the koran, as above, it all depends on ur own interpretation.

Quote:
That is not a self fulfilling prophecy at all.  Why make excuses for murderers ??
Why support them ?


do u even know what a self-fulfilling prophecy is? well, it's when u take a false concept, which evokes a new behavior that makes the original false concept come 'true'.

i think it's fair to say that not all muslims are terrorists/murderers, but to say they all are will probably result in more terrorists being created.

think of it this way, say u have a non-violent/peaceful muslim who is just trying to live a normal life. but u constantly label him a terrorist/murderer anyway and never truely accept him as being normal. this would make the guy angry and he would eventually give up his normal life and become a terrorist anyway.
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« Last Edit: Jul 10th, 2007 at 3:32pm by skeptic »  
 
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #220 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 3:27pm
 
Given sprint's tendency to misinterpret what I and skeptic say, I can hardly rely on his interpretation of a book he hasn't even read.
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #221 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 3:31pm
 
skeptic wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:40pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 1:35pm:
If you treat a group of people like terrorists for long enough, pretty soon they will be.


exactly, it's what u call a self-fulfilling prophecy.


here's an article in today's paper about this. i have to agree with this guy, he raises good points, the Daily Telegraph should put him on full-time rather than the likes of shonky journalists like Piers Akerman:

Quote:
Don't drive Muslims into dark
Dr Mirko Bagaric
July 10, 2007 12:00am

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/opinion/story/0,22049,22043892-5001031,00.html

IN the wake of a Queensland doctor's arrest in connection with Britain's foiled car bomb terrorist attack, Queensland Senate candidate James Baker has called for "radical" Muslims to be incarcerated if there is a terrorist attack.

He couldn't be more wrong. The best way to tackle the terrorist threat is to embrace the Muslim community and work with it to weed out the small portion of aberrant individuals who present a risk to community safety.

The arguments used in support of terrorist profiling are two-pronged. The first relies on basic statistical analysis. While the overwhelming majority of Muslim males in Australia pose no threat to community safety, Muslim males, so the argument runs, are over-represented in proportion to their population size as potential perpetrators of terrorist acts.

All of the more than 20 people arrested on terror-related offences in Australia have been Muslim males (or Muslim converts). This is despite the fact that Muslims constitute a small minority, about 1.5 per cent, of the Australian community.

The second limb of the argument in favour of terrorist profiling is that it does not constitute discrimination.

Discrimination does not occur simply by treating people, even large groups, differently. It is perfectly legitimate to do this. That is why it is OK to lock up criminals, but not the whole population and why it is OK for bosses to pay salaries only to their employees, not the community at large.

Discrimination occurs where people are treated differently without there being a justification for the relevant difference. This is supposedly not the case in relation to terrorism profiling. The relevant difference is thought to lie in the disproportionate number of terrorist acts committed by Muslim males.

Supporters of wide-ranging terrorist profiling contend that the fact there is a relevant distinction between Muslims and other people so far as the commission of terrorist activities is concerned logically means that profiling Muslim males is not a matter of race; it is a matter of crime prevention. Their race or religion is only incidental to this process.

However, there is a fundamental point lost in this approach, which focuses solely on norms of discrimination and mathematics. Public policy, to be effective and intellectually sound, must factor in more than clinical theoretical analysis.

History shows it is foolhardy to ignore the emotive impact that decisions of social or strategic policy can have on the psyche of a society or a group within a society.

Feelings of suppression and second-class status would crystalise into the consciousness of the Muslim community if authorities adopted a wide-ranging policy of terrorism profiling. Moreover, to stigmatise and alienate groups within the community is not only morally repugnant but would increase the risk of a terrorist attack on Australian soil.

A sure-fire way to increase the chances that a person will commit a criminal offence is to limit their opportunities for social and economic well-being. Worldwide empirical research shows that people from marginalised and disadvantaged backgrounds commit a disproportionately high number of criminal offences. That's why the incarceration rate of indigenous people in Australia is 13 times that of the rest of the community.

Terrorism in the end is just another crime – albeit a very serious offence.

The fact that some of the people involved in the latest bombing in the UK are well educated is an aberration rather than a trend.

Yet terrorism law enforcement officials can't be seen to be spending as many resources on cells of grumpy blonde Gold Coast retirees as they do trying to infiltrate communities that have previously spawned terrorists.

The answer to the delicate security dilemma is to firstly recognise the healthy contribution that hundreds of thousands of Muslims have made to forging our rich, diverse and harmonious nation.

Secondly, it needs to be underlined that the members of the community that present a terrorist threat represent a very small number of aberrant fanatical people whose ideologies are beliefs have no foundation in the teachings of Islam and no similarity with the sentiments of the rest of the Muslim community.

Thirdly, the fact that Muslims want to live in a safe and prosperous society just as much as the rest of the community cannot be understated. The Muslim community is part of the counter-terrorism solution, not an element of the risk.

Australia's capacity to continue to curtail the terrorist threat will succeed or fail principally on the extent to which police and the rest of the community can deepen and widen the bonds with the Muslim community.

Dr Mirko Bagaric is a well known lawyer and author.
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #222 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 3:31pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 10th, 2007 at 3:27pm:
Given sprint's tendency to misinterpret what I and skeptic say, I can hardly rely on his interpretation of a book he hasn't even read.


Good point
Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #223 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 3:38pm
 
I'm almost tempted to read the book myself and compare how violent it is with other religious books. But I'm sure this has been done before by people far more qualified than me. If someone really wanted to show that Islam was inherently violent, they would find a more rigourous comparison that has already been done rather than expecting people to put any stock in them flicking through it.
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Re: Martyr Mouse - RIP
Reply #224 - Jul 10th, 2007 at 3:51pm
 
hilali studied it for decades. want to accept his interperetation ? how about hamass?
Why don't the "moderate" muslims just visit the "extremists" and show them where they "have it wrong." "

how have the muslim countries fared in terms of progress/peace ?  Judge something by the fruit it produces.


Dr mirko believes what the french and english used to.  Now they think otherwise. 
Beliefs are ike mechanics in that there are good ones and bad ones.


freediver - please have a read of it yourself. Sure, i am biased.
I am not too keen on being beheaded.
best way to form you r own opinion is to check it out yourself.
That is what I did, I was not going to rely on what others said. 
I thought all the "rumours" must be wrong. It is so unbeleviable.  Till I read it.


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