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What culture do we want ? (Read 9382 times)
Sprintcyclist
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What culture do we want ?
May 31st, 2007 at 3:26pm
 
Is such a person compatable with Aussies clulture ?

She is a world travelled model, filmaker, author who speaks honestly about her life experiences.
To boot she is well spoken , educated, carried herself well, proud and easy on the eyes.  Smiley
Or should we submit to what some muslims want and keep her out ?



Muslim critic author 'divisive'
May 30, 2007 09:34pm
Article from: AAPFont size: + -
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A CONTROVERSIAL Somali author who is in Australia for the Sydney Writers Festival has been criticised by the Muslim community for being "divisive".

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has renounced her Islamic faith, has claimed the Islamic culture is backward and promotes the persecution of women.

The 37-year-old author, who will give a speech at the festival this weekend, says Islam "reduces the individual human being to a slave" and treats women unjustly.

"A woman has to be absolutely obedient to her husband and if she's not he has the right to warn her, leave her alone in bed or beat her," Hirsi Ali said to the Seven Network.

"She cannot serve in public life.

"It's such gross injustice."

Hirsi Ali has survived a civil war, female circumcision and escaped an arranged marriage.

But she now has to be guarded around the clock because she has received death threats for years.

She said she doesn't know how many she receives because she doesn't look at them anymore.

"My telephone number is private, threats and emails and so on go to the American Enterprise Institute," Hirsi Ali said.

"For my own psychological well-being I decided not to look at them. They go immediately to the FBI."

Members of the Australian Muslim community have criticised the Government for allowing her into the country and have labelled her a divisive influence.

"People like that when they come along all they do is like dropping a bomb in the midst of confusion and fear," Mustapha Kara-Ali, the youth representative on the Prime Minister's Muslim community reference group, said to the Seven Network.

"This is very divisive."
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #1 - May 31st, 2007 at 4:02pm
 
Smiley     Nice.
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #2 - May 31st, 2007 at 4:44pm
 
actually sprintcyclist, this lady was reported in the international media as being a complete fraud and isn't honest at all.

first of all she claimed that she was fleeing the war zone in Somalia and an arranged marriage - but the thing is, there never was an arranged marriage and she didn't even live in Somalia. she actually lived in the safe upper middle-class areas in Kenya. here's an article from the Washington Post:

Quote:
Islam's Female Foe Reported to Seek Washington Perch
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/worldopinionroundup/2006/05/islam_critic_reported_to_seek.html

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has become a household name in Europe for her controversial renunciation of Islam, may soon be coming to Washington, according to the European online media. Today, Ali resigned her seat in the Dutch parliament and said she will soon leave the Netherlands.

For supporters, Ali's odyssey exemplifies the threat of Islamic intolerance. Raised in Kenya, Ali reportedly fled an arranged marriage in 1992 and moved to The Netherlands where she renounced Islam for atheism. She won a seat in parliament in 2003 and emerged as the continent's leading critic of Islam and multiculturalism.

Radio Netherlands reported Monday that the Somali-born Ali "will announce later this week that she is to move to the United States." The Dutch newspaper de Volkskrant reports that she will be working for the American Enterprise Institute.

Ali gained notoriety in 2004 for a short film that she wrote and narrated about the Islamic mistreatment of woman. Entitled "Submission," the 11-minute film was directed by Theo Van Gogh, a great grand-nephew of the painter Vincent Van Gogh. Muslims found it blasphemous because it depicted passages of the Koran about women projected onto the body of a woman in a see-through burka. In November 2004, a radical Islamist tracked Van Gogh down on the street, shot him, stabbed him, and left a knife in his chest pegged to a five-page letter containing a threat to Ali's life.

Ali, given tight security by the Dutch government, became famous overnight. She was seen as a latter-day version of novelist Salman Rushdie, whose impious novel, Satanic Verses, earned him a death sentence fatwa from outraged Muslim clerics in 1988.

Ali has not ceased to speak out against Islamic intolerance. She does not discourage reports that she is considering making a sequel to "Submission."

Last Sunday, she told Spiegel Online that "those Muslims who wish to kill someone receive a great deal of support from their home countries. There is plenty of wealth, there are plenty of sponsors and there are plenty of desperate people who choose this path. We must defend ourselves if we wish to preserve our Western values. The price we pay is to be threatened."

Her outspoken views were not received well in the Netherlands, the prosperous and tolerant enclave on the northern European coast where consensus-oriented politics reign.

"Ali is internationally lauded," notes ANP, the Netherlands news service. "Time Magazine selected her as among the 100 most influential people in the world - but in the Dutch media, she is often approached as a pariah."

Last month, Ali praised the publication of cartoons of Muhammad in European newspapers. The Dutch prime minister criticized her stance, as did the speaker of Iran's parliament.

The reports of Ali's resignation and possible move to Washington follow a Dutch television documentary, shown last week, which suggested she had misrepresented how she fled her native country. According to The Independent of London, the program features interviews with members of Ali's family who denied her story of a ducking out of an arranged marriage.

"The programme also alleged that, contrary to her claims of having fled a war zone in Somalia, the MP had lived in comfortable upper middle-class circumstances safely in Kenya for at least 12 years before she sought refugee status in the Netherlands in 1992. Her family home -- which is large and comfortable by Kenyan standards -- was shown in the programme."





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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #3 - May 31st, 2007 at 5:02pm
 
What a pity.  Sad
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #4 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 9:09am
 
gavin - and this report supports the murder of her movie maker and countless death threats on her ??

I am not sure tha the movie was supposed to be an factual autobiography. Moreso just a story.
One that is true of many women trapped in islam countries

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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #5 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 9:28am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 1st, 2007 at 9:09am:
I am not sure tha the movie was supposed to be an factual autobiography. Moreso just a story.
One that is true of many women trapped in islam countries


her book and movie was supposed to be based on her own personal experiences - i.e. first hand accounts.
those personal experiences turned out to be false and something she made up.
so u really can't call her honest.
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #6 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 10:26am
 
So that justifys murder and death threats?
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #7 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 10:28am
 
Quote:
her book and movie was supposed to be based on her own personal experiences - i.e. first hand accounts. 
those personal experiences turned out to be false and something she made up.


You're stating that like it's some kind of 'fact,' Gavin.

Upon inspecting your posts further, it doesn't seem you have much to back up your claims...

Quote:
The reports of Ali's resignation and possible move to Washington follow a Dutch television documentary, shown last week, which suggested she had misrepresented how she fled her native country. According to The Independent of London, the program features interviews with members of Ali's family who denied her story of a ducking out of an arranged marriage.

"The programme also alleged that, contrary to her claims of having fled a war zone in Somalia, the MP had lived in comfortable upper middle-class circumstances safely in Kenya for at least 12 years before she sought refugee status in the Netherlands in 1992. Her family home -- which is large and comfortable by Kenyan standards -- was shown in the programme."


So you're acting like it's 'fact' when they use words like 'alleged' and 'suggested' in the report. As well as the fact that you're basing your accusations entirely on a 'documentary,' which is on par with me using a documentary such as the 'fake moon landing' as fact.

Next time Gavin, do more research and post more evidence.
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #8 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 10:39am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 1st, 2007 at 10:26am:
So that justifys murder and death threats?


no it doesn't, but what did she expect?
if u pass off lies as being the truth, then u expect to get burned.

Quote:
Next time Gavin, do more research and post more evidence.


is a confession from Hirsi Ali enough evidence for u donald?
refer to the article below.

Quote:
Dutch ex-MP retains citizenship  
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5120846.stm

Ms Hirsi Ali has been offered a job in the USA
Somali-born former Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali is to be allowed to keep her Dutch citizenship despite lying in her asylum application in 1992.

Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk was forced to make a U-turn after her calls for Ms Hirsi Ali to lose her citizenship met with criticism.

Ms Hirsi Ali resigned from parliament in May after Ms Verdonk's comments.

She came to prominence in 2004 after a Muslim extremist killed her film-maker colleague Theo van Gogh.

In a letter to the Dutch parliament, Ms Verdonk said she had found a loophole which made it legitimate for Ms Hirsi Ali to have used her grandfather's name in her asylum claim, the Associated Press news agency reported.

"Taking everything into consideration, I have reached the conclusion that the naturalization decision of 1997 identifies Ayaan Hirsi Ali sufficiently and thus she did indeed correctly receive Dutch citizenship," AP quoted Ms Verdonk as saying in the letter.

Confession

In 1992, Ms Hirsi Ali gave a false name and date of birth to the immigration authorities when she arrived in the Netherlands claiming she was fleeing an arranged marriage.

She did not declare that she had arrived in the country via Kenya and Germany - refugees are usually required to seek asylum in the first safe country they reach.

But Ms Hirsi Ali, 36, said she confessed when she was vetted for parliament in 2002 but was still offered a seat as a member of the centre-right VVD party.

In a statement released on Tuesday, she said regretted giving authorities the wrong impression about her identity.

Her lawyer said the former MP was "happy there are no more questions about her Dutch citizenship", AP reported.

Ms Hirsi Ali has been offered a job at the Washington-based think tank The American Enterprise Institute to start in September.

She rose to international attention in 2004 as the writer of a controversial film on violence against Muslim women, Submission, after Mr van Gogh was murdered.


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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #9 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 11:09am
 
Her 'confession.'

Quote:
In 1992, Ms Hirsi Ali gave a false name and date of birth to the immigration authorities when she arrived in the Netherlands claiming she was fleeing an arranged marriage.

She did not declare that she had arrived in the country via Kenya and Germany - refugees are usually required to seek asylum in the first safe country they reach.

But Ms Hirsi Ali, 36, said she confessed when she was vetted for parliament in 2002 but was still offered a seat as a member of the centre-right VVD party.

In a statement released on Tuesday, she said regretted giving authorities the wrong impression about her identity.

Her lawyer said the former MP was "happy there are no more questions about her Dutch citizenship", AP reported.

Ms Hirsi Ali has been offered a job at the Washington-based think tank The American Enterprise Institute to start in September.

She rose to international attention in 2004 as the writer of a controversial film on violence against Muslim women, Submission, after Mr van Gogh was murdered.


So she confessed she gave the wrong identity and that she went to Kenya and Germany before going the the Netherlands.

And?

Doesn't sound like proof to me.

Can you please post links to the articles as well, Gav? Thanks.
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #10 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 11:20am
 
ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Jun 1st, 2007 at 11:09am:
Can you please post links to the articles as well, Gav?


i already gave u the link, refer above - it's under the heading.
here's another article, i highlighted the interesting part in bold for you:

Quote:
Secrets and lies that doomed a radical liberal
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1779723,00.html
Jason Burke in Rotterdam
Sunday May 21, 2006
The Observer

Late afternoon and the grubby 1950s glass and concrete alleyways of Rotterdam's centre are full of teenagers. Black, white, dreadlocked, shaved, speaking Dutch, Chinese, or a French-Arabic-Dutch mixture, all of them wear jeans, T-shirts, and cheap leather bomber jackets for boys, sequined belts for the girls. One or two wear headscarves with their make-up and bangles. On a bench is a stack of newspapers, the front page recounting the latest twist in the saga of Ayaan Hirsi Ali. 'The rise, the fall and then the rise again,' comments the seller sourly. 'I hope this time she goes for good.'

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, born in Somalia in 1969, raised in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, in Holland since 1992, is to move on, once more a refugee of a sort.

Her spokesman, Ingrid Pouw, yesterday finally put an end to a week of rabid speculation, telling The Observer that the 36-year-old MP will leave her adopted country at the end of August to take up a position at a conservative think-tank in Washington DC. After announcing her retirement from Dutch political life at a press conference last week, Hirsi Ali went straight to a meeting with the US ambassador to arrange for fast-track visas or even US residency documents, Pouw said.

Yesterday the dust was far from settling on the Hirsi Ali affair. A TV programme highlighting lies Hirsi Ali told on her asylum application and the subsequent decision by hardline immigration minister Rita Verdonk to strip her of her Dutch citizenship, has triggered a political crisis in Holland. Elsewhere in Europe, the shockwaves created by the controversy are spreading too, with some claiming that another voice against repression had been silenced by force and others welcoming the end of a campaign seen as provocative and negative.

Once more, Hirsi Ali had succeeded in forcing the most difficult, uncomfortable issues of immigration, integration, religion and culture to the forefront of debate in a fiercely uncompromising way.

Hirsi Ali fled Somalia with her family to Saudi Arabia when her father's political activities brought him into conflict with the Somali government, and then on to Kenya.

In 1992, fleeing an arranged marriage, she arrived in Holland where she worked first as a cleaner and then as a translator at a refugee centre in Rotterdam - an experience that marked her deeply, according to one friend interviewed by The Observer. A victim herself of female circumcision, Hirsi Ali was shocked by the male repression of immigrant women living in one of the most developed and tolerant societies in the world.

She studied political science at Leiden University and found a position in a leftwing think-tank. With such credentials, as well as her striking looks, she was well placed when the attacks of 11 September 2001 focused global attention on Islamic radicalism. Her self-appointed mission was to make the Dutch and Europeans aware of 'the repressive nature of Islam' and of the dangers of mass immigration, which led to an invitation from the Dutch Liberal party to join them and, very rapidly, to a seat in parliament.

Despite the Liberals' right-wing economics and uncompromising anti-immigration stance, Hirsi Ali pronounced the party her political home.

Yet, though increasingly known in Holland, it was only in 2004 that she became an international figure when film-maker Theo van Gogh was stabbed to death by a radical Islamist after he made a film with Hirsi Ali called Submission, using quotes from the Koran projected over a semi-naked woman to highlight domestic violence in Muslim societies. After the murder, Hirsi Ali went into hiding, surrounded by bodyguards.

But though she continued with her public, parliamentary and international engagements, the stress of constant death-threats and increasing criticism of her trenchant statements, began to tell. When, earlier this year, a court decided that she would have to leave her home in The Hague because she was endangering her neighbours, Hirsi Ali, friends said, started thinking about moving overseas. And then a new documentary was broadcast on Dutch TV. It was made by Gus van Dongen, an experienced TV journalist. He travelled to Somalia and Kenya to interview members of Hirsi Ali's family.

'There was no agenda,' van Dongen said last week. 'She is a politician who had made much of her background, telling one story. We set out to check those facts. That is all.'

The TV programme, broadcast 10 days ago, highlighted the fact that Hirsi Ali had falsified her original asylum application in Holland, saying that she had not come from war-torn Somalia as she claimed, but from Kenya, where she had lived peacefully for 10 years. The fact that she had lied was well-known, retorted Hirsi Ali, making the point that was she was fleeing a forced marriage. Not so, said van Dongen, using testimony from her brother and husband to allege that the marriage was not made under compulsion. Nor van Dongen said, was Hirsi Ali raised in a strict Muslim family.
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #11 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 11:41am
 
previous article (continued) - due to 5500 character limit per post:

Quote:
An old story, said Hirsi Ali.

But not as far as Rita Verdonk, the Dutch 'iron lady' and minister of immigration, was concerned. Though a member of the Liberal party too, she launched an investigation and within days decided that Hirsi Ali should be stripped of her passport. The result was a huge row in parliament, splitting the Liberal party and the rest of the ruling right-wing coalition. This weekend Verdonk has promised to reconsider. But few think she will change her stance.

The affair has attracted international attention - most of it misinformed according to Bas Heijne, a newspaper columnist. 'This is being completely misjudged overseas,' said Heijne. 'It's all about domestic politics. The neo-conservative wave that swept Holland in recent years is running out of steam and turning in on itself. One of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's problems is that she had no real political base, either in immigrant communities or in the native Dutch population.'

But others, in Holland and overseas, see the battle as representative of far deeper issues. Robert Zoellick, number two at the US State Department, welcomed her decision last week - in part a tacit condemnation of 'wishy washy' Europeans who refuse to take a firm stance against radical islam.

Such transatlantic criticism appears increasingly inappropriate. On Thursday last week, the French national assembly passed a hardline package of immigration measures which will have a major impact in coming years. In Holland, stricter laws have resulted in a drop from 43, 500 asylum applications in 2000 to 12,300 last year. 'It's getting much harder for refugees to get into Europe. All the ministers are watching and copying each other,' said Annemiek Bots, of the Dutch Refugee Council.

But the real issue raised by Hirsi Ali is not so much immigration as integration - and free speech. For Gijs van Westelaken, who made Submission with Van Gogh and Ali, the activist has challenged 'the complacency' of a society that would 'do anything' not to address the difficult issue of how to integrate nearly 1.7 million immigrants, one in 10 of the population, of whom around two-thirds are Muslim. 'Theo van Gogh was silenced. Now Hirsi Ali has been silenced too,' he said. Yet there is little chance that she will abandon her campaigning, he said. 'It's a mission, it's what makes her tick.'

In Rotterdam the jury is still out on Hirsi Ali. The port city is one of Holland's most cosmopolitan with more than 30 per cent of electors of foreign origin. Recent elections saw a 25 per cent cut in seats on the city council for the right-wing party linked to the Liberals. In the Rotterdam Immigrants' Association offices, Mohammed Bibi, the director, praised the fact that Hirsi Ali had 'started a discussion'. 'But she did it in a very rude way and she related everything - violence, female circumcision, repression - to religion where actually it is cultural,' he said.

Burak, 25, a taxi driver from Turkey, said the only good Hirsi Ali had done was to stimulate debate. 'Islam is a religion of peace ... People are terrorists not because of their religion but because of their hate,' he said. Burak was unsure, however, if he would stay in the Netherlands. 'It is OK in Holland but is getting bad to be a Muslim now.'


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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #12 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 11:52am
 
Quote:
i highlighted the interesting part in bold for you:


Thankyou. I wish more people were considerate like you, Gav.  Wink


Quote:
The TV programme, broadcast 10 days ago, highlighted the fact that Hirsi Ali had falsified her original asylum application in Holland, saying that she had not come from war-torn Somalia as she claimed, but from Kenya, where she had lived peacefully for 10 years. The fact that she had lied was well-known, retorted Hirsi Ali, making the point that was she was fleeing a forced marriage. Not so, said van Dongen, using testimony from her brother and husband to allege that the marriage was not made under compulsion. Nor van Dongen said, was Hirsi Ali raised in a strict Muslim family.


Fair enough. I admit I'm under-researched on this topic. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm still pretty skeptical though.
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #13 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 12:01pm
 
ex-member DonaldTrump wrote on Jun 1st, 2007 at 11:52am:
Fair enough. I admit I'm under-researched on this topic. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm still pretty skeptical though.


no worries, i make a habit of reading news from international sources as well, it's amazing how much the Australian media leaves out - like in this case, Hirsi Ali is currently touring Australia, i think it's fair that the Australian media mention that the life-experiences that made her famous were found out to be fake. but they haven't done that at all.

the Daily Telegraph is the worst offender, they still prompt her as the woman who fled war-torn Somalia, when in reality she was only born there but was actually raised in Kenya in peaceful circumstances.
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Re: What culture do we want ?
Reply #14 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 12:03pm
 
Gavin - you have justified murder here.

Quote:
no it doesn't, but what did she expect? 
if u pass off lies as being the truth, then u expect to get burned. 


You are saying we should be subservient to muslims because otherwise we can "expect to get burned"
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