Australian Politics Forum - ISLAM [from thinking globally]

AusNat Ex Member Gender:	Re: Limit Muslim immmigration-- Australia is warne Reply #165 - Jun 12^th, 2007 at 11:42pm Islam is not a traditional Australian religion. Those who were born here and still continue their arabian traditions have not assimilated.
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Gavin

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Re: Limit Muslim immmigration-- Australia is warne
Reply #166 - Jun 12^th, 2007 at 11:44pm

Ausnat wrote on Jun 12^th, 2007 at 11:42pm:

Islam is not a traditional Australian religion. Those who were born here and still continue their arabian traditions have not assimilated.

two points:

1. Australia is a secular nation, which allows freedom of expression of religion, so there is no such thing as a religion that is "not traditionally Australian".

2. Not all muslims are arab - so arabian traditions aren't the same as Islamic ones.

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ex-member DonaldTrump

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Re: Limit Muslim immmigration-- Australia is warne
Reply #167 - Jun 13^th, 2007 at 12:16am

Quote:

mate, if u stuff up as an accountant, ur personally liable - i.e. u can get taken to court.

How often do accountants stuff up anyway? How many of your guys have gone to court in the last year and lost their jobs forever?

Quote:

and yes, i did work in food & bev during my uni days, i can admit that u need to serve customers quickly and the pay was quite bad but it's hardly stressful.

Ha. As a Uni student, of course you didn't find it 'stressful'... as far as we know... you could have
A) Done one or two shifts a week.
B) Relied on centrelink for the bulk of your income.
C) The boss had tolerance for your 'inconsistencies' due to the fact that your young, stupid and above all... cheap.
D) Lived at your parents house and hence didn't have to worry about making a living and could afford certain luxuries.

As a full time profession... as you are with your accounting... I'm sure the bar would be raised slightly. Hence your view that compared to a 'full-time' and 'back-breaking' profession like accounting a 'mere' food and beverage job is nothing.

Quote:

1. I don't own the company, but i am a manager who supervises several staff members and i report to the partner.
2. Not fresh off the boat muslims, rather born and raised here in Australia.
3. they are paid market rates, based on their level of experience - their religious background doesn't affect their pay.

I was seeing whether you were the owner of the company and whether you were hiring them because they were cheap. A lot of companies do that believe it or not.

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well ur imagination is wrong, it's much more than basic maths/filing - to name a few of our services, we do tax consulting, audits, general accountancy, business planning, process reviews, IT consultancy.

Like I said... pushing a calculator. Wink

I'm sure all the university experience and after doing the same thing a jillion times, it would get easy after a while and become a long, boring routine.

I severely doubt it's as stressful as you're making it out to be, compared to say, a job at McDonalds. As ridiculous as it sounds, I think they are among the hardest workers of all.

Quote:

mate, if u stuff up as an accountant, ur personally liable - i.e. u can get taken to court. cast ur mind back a couple of years with the corporate collapses, e.g. HIH, Enron, One Tel guess who was taken to court? that's right, the accountants (Andersen), who subsequently collapsed as well.

Hmm... so ALL the accountants in ALL the companies were taken to court and blacklisted from ever getting a job again were they?

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AusNat

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Re: Limit Muslim immmigration-- Australia is warne
Reply #168 - Jun 13^th, 2007 at 12:23am

Quote:

1. Australia is a secular nation, which allows freedom of expression of religion, so there is no such thing as a religion that is "not traditionally Australian".

It is, for as long as pender and the CDP stays out of useful government.
The Australian government is secular- not the Nation. this is a christian country.

Quote:

2. Not all muslims are arab - so arabian traditions aren't the same as Islamic ones.

I know that. i was generalising.

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JJJ(Guest)

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Democracy in the Middle East
Reply #169 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 12:10pm

hi all, u always hear George W Bush talking about bringing democracy to the Middle East and that was one of the reasons Iraq was invaded since Saddam Hussien was a tyrant.

also, recently Turkey (another muslim-populated nation) had democratic elections where the pro-Islamic party got elected fair & square, however despite getting elected there are huge protests by pro-secular groups.

so it got me thinking, if we do succeed and bring democracy to the Middle East, what is the chances of pro-Islamic parties getting elected? also, if a pro-Islamic party is elected, would that government be recognised by western nations - on one hand, it should be recognised since they would be democratically elected, however on the other hand they have values that are totally incompatible with Western values.

or when we say bringing democracy to the Middle East, we really mean "democracy where a pro-secular government is always elected, not pro-Islamic ones"?

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freediver

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Re: Democracy in the Middle East
Reply #170 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 12:21pm

What do you mean by pro-islamic? Obviously people with Islamic values are going to get elected. That doesn't mean they are against secularism.

In Turkey, the president who was recently elected was only suspected of being 'proislamic.' He did not get elected on that policy platform. The protests were just to warn him against doing what some people fear he may do.

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JJJ(Guest)

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Re: Democracy in the Middle East
Reply #171 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 12:27pm

By pro-Islamic, i mean someone who is against secularism and wishes to impose sharia law. If a party with that agenda got elected via democratic elections in the Middle East, would that government still be recognised by the rest of the world?

if not, why not?

and if we would reject such a democratically elected government, are we really bringing democracy to the Middle East? or are we only happy with democracy in the Middle East when a party with Western ideals is elected into office?

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freediver

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Re: Democracy in the Middle East
Reply #172 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 12:38pm

We would not reject such a government. If the people want sharia law, they can have it.

I would expect a democracy to tend towards a less severe version of sharia law. You could argue that our alws are based on the ten commandments, but they have been expanded and modified beyond recognition.

What is perhaps implied by sharia law is that clerics decide all the details and the people have no say in them. Obviously that wouldn't be democratic. But building up a legal code democratically, even if it is based in principle on sharia law, is fine.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41720 Gender:	Re: Democracy in the Middle East Reply #173 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 1:41pm Good thought JJJ. If the people voted in a fair, informed and democratic election to have an oppressive governing body that banned freedom of speech, dress, worship etc etc , then yes, it should be the governing body.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53054 At my desk.	Re: Democracy in the Middle East Reply #174 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 1:49pm You cannot have an informed public without freedom of speech.
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41720 Gender:	Re: Democracy in the Middle East Reply #175 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 1:57pm Oh. So, a governing body that does not enbody freedom of speech and a democratic election are mutually exclusive. (Is that the term ?) ie, one cannot be where the other is.
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freediver

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Re: Democracy in the Middle East
Reply #176 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 2:08pm

Yes, democracy and lack of freedom of speech are in practice mutually exclusive.

I think that most democracies have consitutions that protect key things like freedom of speech. This allows citizens to prevent the passage of legislation (via the courts) even if the majority of citizens are in favour and the government wishes to make the changes. The government would have to hold a referendum to alter the constitution first.

This is necessary for a few reasons. As Turkey demonstrates, elections are never referendums on any one issue. Furthermore, without constitutional rights, government could gradually chip away at the foundation of a democracy and turn it into a dictatorship. As with Germany between the world wars, it is fairly easy for citizens to end up electing a dictator during a crisis, but it is very hard to get a dictator to give up his powers in the interests of democracy. A constitution helps to prevent citizens from voting away a democracy.

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JJJ(Guest)

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Re: Democracy in the Middle East
Reply #177 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 2:09pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 2^nd, 2007 at 1:41pm:

Good thought JJJ.

If the people voted in a fair, informed and democratic election to have an oppressive governing body that banned freedom of speech, dress, worship etc etc , then yes, it should be the governing body.

yeah, but such a party would not act in the best interests of western nations, so my question is would western nations recognise that government as legitimate?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53054 At my desk.	Re: Democracy in the Middle East Reply #178 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 2:10pm Western nations already recognise many dictators as 'legitimate'.
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JJJ(Guest) Guest	Re: Democracy in the Middle East Reply #179 - May 2^nd, 2007 at 2:14pm freediver wrote on May 2^nd, 2007 at 2:10pm: Western nations already recognise many dictators as 'legitimate'. yeah, but those dictators act in the best interests of Western Nations and as far as i'm aware, none of them are Islamic (i.e. sharia law).
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