Australian Politics Forum - Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?

oceanz Gold Member Offline Auzgurl.. Posts: 3531 Gender:	Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate? Reply #30 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 12:55pm Super if i shot a bloke in the balls I think he'll stop. I wont kill someone- not worth going to jail over a crim. I would only ever shoot if my safety was an issue- of course.
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freediver

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Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?
Reply #31 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 12:58pm

Laws are constantly made, not revoked.

Those laws protect our freedom. Unless of course you think the freedom to beat someone up is more important than the right to live in peace.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but you really need to do some of your own thinking and look at statistics objectively rather than just relying on using emotion or someone else's ideas which are not logical arguments to come to conclusions.

I don't see you rpesenting any stats, just spin.

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superdupercooper

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Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?
Reply #32 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 1:04pm

Oceans;

I'll try not to get too technical with you, but the balls are not a huge target, it would take time to figure out where they are and line them up in the gun sights, especially when the target is moving and you are charged with adrenaline. It takes time to aquire a specific target such as that. Instinctive shooting is just pointing and shooting without using the sights, which is a much faster way to take your target down in close quarters especially if they are armed. There are no vital organs in that region which are guaranteed to kill or incapacitate when taken out of action.

Aim for the torso and just give it to them if you are ever in that situation, your life is not something you should gamble with.

There is such a thing as justifiable homicide if you did happen to kill the crim, but as things stand now in this country, you would more than likely go to jail unless the firearm was legally owned and registered, stored appropriately away from the ammunition and had reason to shoot.

You could just leave the gun on the bedside table, and when the police come say you couldn't sleep so you just happened to be oiling the firearm and heard someone breaking in and THEN unlocked the ammunition to go investigate.

A few years ago there was a home invasion in NSW where the son of the licensed firearms owner shot the intruder in the leg, even though his life and that of his family were not currently being specifically threatened.

No charges were laid.

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superdupercooper

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Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?
Reply #33 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 1:09pm

freediver, if you think I am writing poo, prove me wrong. Please try. I'd love to rip every one of your arguments (which undoubtably will be old rehashed unfounded ones) in half and throw them back at you. Grin

Not all laws protect our freedom. Such as laws restricting the media. Such as being able to hold someone against their will for long periods of time on suspicion of conspiracy.

I am representing a viewpoint more than statistics. You were the one who was using statistics. So far everything I have posted that can be verified statistically is true.

So far what you have posted can be manipulated to show a view point using selective quoting and use of statistics.

Please use your own mind and don't be a drone, then get back to me. I really don't think you are that dumb to swallow every piece of (dis)information designed specifically to subvert the mind in order to achieve a goal or agenda.

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oceanz

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Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?
Reply #34 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 1:24pm

superdupercooper wrote on Aug 30^th, 2007 at 1:04pm:

Oceans;

I'll try not to get too technical with you, but the balls are not a huge target, it would take time to figure out where they are and line them up in the gun sights, especially when the target is moving and you are charged with adrenaline. It takes time to aquire a specific target such as that. Instinctive shooting is just pointing and shooting without using the sights, which is a much faster way to take your target down in close quarters especially if they are armed. There are no vital organs in that region which are guaranteed to kill or incapacitate when taken out of action.

Aim for the torso and just give it to them if you are ever in that situation, your life is not something you should gamble with.

There is such a thing as justifiable homicide if you did happen to kill the crim, but as things stand now in this country, you would more than likely go to jail unless the firearm was legally owned and registered, stored appropriately away from the ammunition and had reason to shoot.

You could just leave the gun on the bedside table, and when the police come say you couldn't sleep so you just happened to be oiling the firearm and heard someone breaking in and THEN unlocked the ammunition to go investigate.

A few years ago there was a home invasion in NSW where the son of the licensed firearms owner shot the intruder in the leg, even though his life and that of his family were not currently being specifically threatened.

No charges were laid.

thanks for that super..Im only experienced in head shots.

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freediver

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Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?
Reply #35 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 1:26pm

freediver, if you think I am writing nuts, prove me wrong. Please try. I'd love to rip every one of your arguments

For starters, you claimed I am the one responding to spin rather than stats, yet you have not rpesented any to back up your case.

I am representing a viewpoint more than statistics. You were the one who was using statistics.

Doesn't this contradict your earlier statement?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but you really need to do some of your own thinking and look at statistics objectively rather than just relying on using emotion

Yet here you are admitting that you are pushing a 'viewpoint', not an objective response to statistics.

So far everything I have posted that can be verified statistically is true.

Then do it. Verify it. Although I am not sure which statements you think can be verified as you keep contradicting yourself.

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superdupercooper

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Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?
Reply #36 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 1:37pm

You are getting upset. You are letting emotion guide your responses. I am not contradicting myself.

Quote:

Before 96 we never had the issues with guns that we do now. How often did you hear about a drive by back in the day?

There is more gun crime out there than goes reported. Go ask a ER nurse at a hospital in a crime hotspot how many people come in with gun shot wounds and how many of them cooperate with the police.

Quote:

Please show me where in Australia firearms have increased the homicide rate, or banning guns has reduced it. Don't tell me that after guns were banned the rate went down and use that as your justification. I will not disagree that the rate went down, but it was going down consistently for years before that.

Quote:

Gun deaths might go down after gun ownership is restricted, but have a look at how many of them are suicides, and then look at the suicide rate which doesn't change.

Quote:

Our society has a higher rate of violent crime than the US, per capita. Things such as rape, assault etc.

All can be statistically verified. I'm not going to prove it to you, because I know I am right. I want you to prove me wrong, however I think you will have a hard time doing so.

Oceans;
I've never shot anybody but headshots are reserved for professionals like anti-terror groups and swat teams who train day in day out at seeking out and engaging rather than sitting back and defending. But I just think you were taking the piss out of me! Wink

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53061 At my desk.	Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate? Reply #37 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 1:56pm OK, lets start with the first one: Before 96 we never had the issues with guns that we do now.
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superdupercooper

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Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?
Reply #38 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 2:05pm

Quote:

Australia

The Australian government made sweeping changes to the firearms legislation in 1997. However, the total homicide rate, after having remained basically flat from 1995 to 2001, has now begun climbing again. While violent crime is decreasing in the United States, it is increasing in Australia. Over the past six years, the overall rate of violent crime in Australia has been on the rise – for example, armed robberies have jumped 166 percent nationwide.

The confiscation and destruction of legally owned firearms has cost Australian taxpayers at least $500 million. The cost of the police services bureaucracy, including the costly infrastructure of the gun registration system, has increased by $200 million since 1997.

“And for what?” asks Mauser. “There has been no visible impact on violent crime. It is impossible to justify such a massive amount of the taxpayers’ money for no decrease in crime. For that kind of tax money, the police could have had more patrol cars, shorter shifts, or better equipment.”

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=pb&id=604
click the pdf link at the bottom.

Quote:

Gun ownership is rising and there is no definitive evidence that a decade of restrictive firearms laws has done anything to reduce weapon-related crime, according to NSW's top criminal statistician

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gun-laws-fall-short-in-war-on-crime/2005/10/28/1130400366681.html

Please stop using emotion and start using fact. Arguments based on emotion are idiotic. I don't care if you don't like guns, only a misinformed easily led individual would come to your conclusions when the actual facts are staring them right in the face.

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superdupercooper Junior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 62	Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate? Reply #39 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 2:10pm Quote: Sydney Gun Crimes double There are still some problems. In inner Sydney, robberies with a firearm increased by 111 per cent over the last two years http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/sydney-gun-crimes-double/2006/08/30/1156816939675.html
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superdupercooper Junior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 62	Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate? Reply #40 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 2:11pm The best you can hope for when banning guns is that crimes committed with guns will go down, not that the actual crime regardless of a firearm being used or not will go down. This is what history and FACT has shown us, not irrationality and emotion.
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freediver

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Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?
Reply #41 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 2:26pm

However, the total homicide rate, after having remained basically flat from 1995 to 2001, has now begun climbing again.

Have a look at the top graph on page 14. From 1997 on, the homicide rate was lower. He is obviously misrepresenting that data. He must hold his readers in very low regard, as he even puts the graph in the report. He bases his negative assessment on a single year to year trend in a graph that goes up and down every year, but which clearly shows a lower homicide rate from 1997 on.

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superdupercooper Junior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 62	Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate? Reply #42 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 2:35pm The homicide rate is between 1.5 and 2.0 per 100K. Australia has never been a country with a high murder rate. The graph clearly shows me that the homicide rate now is higher than when we had the buyback.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53061 At my desk.	Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate? Reply #43 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 2:41pm Then you have difficulty reading graphs.
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superdupercooper Junior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 62	Re: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate? Reply #44 - Aug 30^th, 2007 at 2:46pm Have a closer look. The rate is higher now than 1997. You can't read graphs mate. At all. Seriously.
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Poll
Question: Does gun ownership reduce the crime rate?
yes 9 (34.6%) no 10 (38.5%) petty crime yes, homicide no 5 (19.2%) can't judge from the evidence 2 (7.7%) Total votes: 26 « Created by: freediver on: Mar 1^st, 2007 at 1:12pm »