Australian Politics Forum - Is Islam inherently violent?

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #300 - May 28^th, 2008 at 9:03am

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 8:58am:

helian - question was, were they following jesus's lessons/actions when doing that ?

They certainly thought so... Or at least thought they were doing God's work and used quotes from the Bible to justify it. Martin Luther went to great lengths to justify his vile rants against Jews. Hitler too.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50525 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam inherently violent? Reply #301 - May 28^th, 2008 at 11:02am How did Hitler try to justify his rants? Do you mean from a religious perspective?
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DILLIGAF

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #302 - May 28^th, 2008 at 11:29am

Malik Shakur wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 7:35am:

DILLIGAF wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 12:04am:

Malik Shakur wrote on May 27^th, 2008 at 11:36pm:

The death penalty is the penalty applicable for treason for most nations, even in Australia today that is the punishment.

No it is not the penalty here.

Apologies.. That punishment was only changed quite recently, as late as 1985.

It shouldnt have. The death penalty is nessesary for treason against the Nation. No death penalty will encourage further treason, the same goes for drug dealing.

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muso

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #303 - May 28^th, 2008 at 12:46pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 26^th, 2008 at 4:10pm:

The usual explaining away of the terminology in Matthew is that they're all just metaphors for peaceful things.[/b][/color]

As for what Jesus said or actually meant... well what with mistranslations from one language to another and convenient excising and additions over the last 2000 years (particularly the first 350 years of Christianity), we're never going to know. We're more likely to know what Paul thought than Jesus... (or if you like Isa... or Yeshua.)

As an 'atheist', I've heard these explanations before, I've researched them in some depth, and I'm satisfied that they are mostly old Jewish metaphors which didn't translate too well from the original... Greek ? (I think) in the case of Matthew.

I've often said that Christians should go through the Bible, revise it and make sure that such texts are easily understood without a degree in theology. After all, isn't the religion for the people? - but I'm an 'atheist' so they don't listen to my suggestions Cry

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40940 Gender:	Re: Is Islam inherently violent? Reply #304 - May 28^th, 2008 at 12:59pm muso the niv version is a pretty well regarded version they all say the same story anyway.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #305 - May 28^th, 2008 at 3:33pm

muso wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 12:46pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 26^th, 2008 at 4:10pm:

The usual explaining away of the terminology in Matthew is that they're all just metaphors for peaceful things.[/b][/color]

As for what Jesus said or actually meant... well what with mistranslations from one language to another and convenient excising and additions over the last 2000 years (particularly the first 350 years of Christianity), we're never going to know. We're more likely to know what Paul thought than Jesus... (or if you like Isa... or Yeshua.)

As an 'atheist', I've heard these explanations before, I've researched them in some depth, and I'm satisfied that they are mostly old Jewish metaphors which didn't translate too well from the original... Greek ? (I think) in the case of Matthew.

I've often said that Christians should go through the Bible, revise it and make sure that such texts are easily understood without a degree in theology. After all, isn't the religion for the people? - but I'm an 'atheist' so they don't listen to my suggestions Cry

Great Theologians, religious figures and historians have debated these passages for hundreds of years and the argument has still not been resolved.... and it won't be here either. If you want to believe it to be a metaphor then it is... if you want it to be a justification for violence under certain circumstances then so it is as well.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #306 - May 28^th, 2008 at 3:36pm

freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 11:02am:

How did Hitler try to justify his rants? Do you mean from a religious perspective?

Yes. Hitler would often 'chew the ear off' clerics and theologians citing historical events where the church had openly persecuted Jews and left them to their fate, sometimes in dire circumstances like having to migrate out of a region. Hitler reminded them that the Nazi Regime was simply carrying to it's logical conclusion the church's long held desire to be rid of Jews.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50525 At my desk.	Re: Is Islam inherently violent? Reply #307 - May 28^th, 2008 at 3:39pm I thought Christians were all about 'saving' the opposition, not killing them. That isn't a logical conclusion at all.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #308 - May 28^th, 2008 at 3:43pm

freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 3:39pm:

I thought Christians were all about 'saving' the opposition, not killing them. That isn't a logical conclusion at all.

It is logical where the institution of the church in both its Roman Catholic and protestant forms set about actively persecuting Jews as Martin Luther's psychotic rants attest. The church was directly involved or instrumental in driving Jews out of cities in Europe and often forbidding Christians to 'aid and abet' them on their sad trek to find a new home.

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« Last Edit: May 28^th, 2008 at 5:48pm by NorthOfNorth »

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is Islam inherently violent? Reply #309 - May 28^th, 2008 at 3:47pm freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 11:02am: How did Hitler try to justify his rants? Do you mean from a religious perspective? A link to more info on the relationship between Lutheranism and Nazism http://nobeliefs.com/luther.htm
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Malik Shakur

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #310 - May 28^th, 2008 at 5:32pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 8:58am:

helian - question was, were they following jesus's lessons/actions when doing that ?

malik - could you interperet ths for me please ?

"Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya (tribute) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Quran, Sura 9:29)

Sprint, when Christians commit atrocities in the name of Christianity you use the defence that Jesus pbuh's teachings didn't teach that. But when a Muslim commits terrorism and kills innocent people, you blame Islam when the prophet Muhammad never allowed such behaviour..

Next, the verse you pasted is regarding the position of non Muslims in the Islamic State. If they follow the laws and pay the Jizya tax then they receive all of their rights within the State as any citizen. The Jizya or Protection tax is applied because non-Muslims aren't required to defend the nation when it is under attack.

Why Sprint?

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lapaz62 Junior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98	Re: Is Islam inherently violent? Reply #311 - May 28^th, 2008 at 8:38pm Sprint, dont get me wrong, I agree with you, I was just saying that people in power have used most religions for to disguise their own power struggles. When Islam is in troubleit always blames the west, thto deflect the local issues away from them.
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #312 - May 29^th, 2008 at 9:01am

lapaz - pretty fair comments.

malik - that's what I believe.
There are many circumstances of christians committing atricities.
There are no quotes/actions from jesus supporting that.

There are many circumstances of muslims commiting similar actions, as I see it there are many quotes/actions supporting that.

the quote i gave says nothing about nonmuslims being in a islam state.
it says to fight all nonmuslims, till they submit and are subdued.

(Maybe I should not educate you this way in the koran

!!!)

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mozzaok

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #313 - May 29^th, 2008 at 9:25am

The obvious answer to the retorts from people defending Islam vs Christianity in the "violence" department, is the fact that the most vocal and visible proponents of Islam, ie; Fundamental loonies, actively and violently oppose any dissenting discussion, on any issue that they choose top take offence at.
They do represent a very real threat, and attempting to placate and appease them is only perceived as weakness, which inspires further assaults on our freedoms and culture from this invasive and divisive group who do beleive in killing people who do not agree with them.
It just does not get any more violent than that!

I find it hard to sympathise with a group who at their own convenience, choose to see themselves as a;
1; Religion
2; Culture
3; Race
They use this changing definition to demand, our even force acceptance of their often unacceptable behaviour, whilst always being unwilling to respect the behaviour of the culture in their adopted country.

That is why so many see them as violent, unfair, hypocrites.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #314 - May 29^th, 2008 at 10:07am

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 29^th, 2008 at 9:01am:

lapaz - pretty fair comments.

malik - that's what I believe.
There are many circumstances of christians committing atricities.
There are no quotes/actions from jesus supporting that.

There are many circumstances of muslims commiting similar actions, as I see it there are many quotes/actions supporting that.

the quote i gave says nothing about nonmuslims being in a islam state.
it says to fight all nonmuslims, till they submit and are subdued.

(Maybe I should not educate you this way in the koran

!!!)

As if just because Jesus didn't teach it directly makes one iota of difference to how it has been practised throughout millennia.

When you're being burnt at the state or expelled from a city or persecuted because you're not Christian (or not the right kind of Christian) what the hell difference does it make? All of these persecutors can point to a passage in the old and new testaments that justify their actions... just ask Luther.

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