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CLIMATE CHANGE (Read 72568 times)
freediver
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #195 - Jun 12th, 2008 at 3:34pm
 
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What to say to climate kooks
Reply #196 - Jun 25th, 2008 at 4:02pm
 
from crikey:

When Greg Hunt declares that the Coalition is behind an emissions trading scheme, he’s either lying or he’s totally out of touch with his colleagues.

If the latter, today’s Australian must be humiliating for him. With Hunt having done The 7.30 Report and other media overnight and this morning stressing that not only was the Coalition supporting a trading scheme but they hadn’t even decided if transport should be in or out, The Oz  describes in gory details how Hunt’s colleagues want to significantly delay and weaken emissions trading.

It is clear that, regardless of the views of Malcolm Turnbull and Hunt, the Coalition has prepared a litany of reasons for it to back away from an emissions trading scheme. 2010 is too soon. We’ll send jobs offshore. Australia can’t solve climate change by itself. Petrol costs too much to include.

So to make life easier, Crikey is preparing a cut-out-and-keep guide to why the Coalition is hopelessly wrong. Next time you find yourself stuck at a party with a greenhouse denialist, or a Coalition MP pays a visit, or you find yourself on the bus next to Andrew Bolt, whip out this guide and have it ready for their specious arguments.

Australia’s emissions are tiny. We shouldn’t have an emissions trading scheme before other countries.

1)
So what? An emissions trading scheme is good economics regardless of whether other countries do it. Reducing carbon emissions is not some act of generosity. Carbon is inflicting damage on our environment and our economies. Currently we are not paying the cost of that damage, and therefore distorting our investment, consumption and production decisions. We apply the principle of "polluter pays" elsewhere in the economy -- why not in relation to carbon?

2)
Major trading partners like Europe and New Zealand have emissions trading schemes already.

3)
Our emissions might be small in total but we are one of the highest per-capita emitters and major exporter of carbon-intense coal.

2010 is too soon. We need to wait.

1)
Any further delay creates more uncertainty and sovereign risk for business and investors.

2)
Because of the Coalition’s flatearther-like refusal to acknowledge global warming, we’ve already waited too long. The only scientifically credible dispute over global warming now is whether we’ll be totally stuffed in thirty years or fifty years. Every time the evidence is re-considered, the scenarios get worse. We don’t have time to wait.

3)
As Michael Hitchens of the Australian Industry Greenhouse Network says, there’s no reason why the process of establishing an emissions trading scheme should take longer than the Government’s current timetable.

4)
If the economy is not in prime position to absorb the transition costs of a trading scheme now, when will it be? We have low unemployment, businesses screaming for more workers and a struggle to contain inflation. If there are economic impacts, when would be a better time?

A trading scheme will cause jobs in energy-intensive industries to "leak" jobs offshore.

1)
No it won’t. Building new facilities (e.g. an aluminium smelter) in non-trading countries requires massive investment, confidence in factors like political stability, and certainty that the destination country won’t impose a trading scheme or carbon tax for years.

2)
It leaking does occur, moving energy-intensive facilities to other countries might yield environmental benefits, given Australia’s reliance on carbon-intense coal for electricity generation.

3)
Energy-intensive industries form only a small part of the economy -- less than 5% of jobs.

4)
Given the current skills shortage, other sectors would gratefully absorb any displaced workers.

Transport should not be included -- it is better to regulate greater transport efficiency than make people pay more for fuel, because they can’t control their fuel usage.

1)
Price signals are nearly always more efficient -- and that means cheaper -- than regulation. Regulation is the command economy method of economic reform that doesn’t give consumers a choice about what they do but generates significant inefficiencies and higher costs for consumers and producers.

2)
Regulating for higher motor vehicle fuel efficiency won’t compel people to buy more fuel-efficient vehicles in the absence of incentives to do so. Fuel efficiency is much higher in countries with higher fuel costs than in the US and Australia.

3)
People can control their fuel usage if they have access to alternate means of transport. Our urban mass transit systems are already seeing significant increases in patronage. Greater investment in mass transit will provide more alternatives to car use.

4)
Omitting transport, or any other energy-intensive sector, will just mean a higher cost across all other sectors. There’s no free lunch -- if the scheme is to be effective we have to pay one way or another.
But China and India aren’t doing anything.
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #197 - Jun 25th, 2008 at 4:03pm
 
But China and India aren’t doing anything.

1)
We’ve benefited from 200 years of carbon production. We have a moral obligation to acknowledge this, especially when we can afford to do it.

2)
The developed world accounts for 80% of carbon emissions. Our emissions trading scheme will strengthen our hand to argue that developing countries should join us in curbing carbon emissions. But waiting for China and India to do something about emissions will mean nothing will ever be done.

New technologies like geosequestration will fix everything.

1)
This is pipedream stuff. Assuming a new technology would somehow actually address carbon emissions (and geosequestration definitely will not), by the time it is developed, proven and implemented across the world economy it’ll be 2030 and we may be facing nightmare climate change scenarios.

2)
There's a wide range of existing renewable energy and energy efficiency technologies that can be a large part of the solution, just waiting to be deployed here in Australia, as they are now being deployed in many parts of the world. But these won’t work in the absence of price signals to use them.
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #198 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 12:22am
 
I can't believe what i'm reading,have you bothered to do any research on this topic at all,or do you just believe whatever is on the channel ten news.Everybody knows "man made" global warming is for the mass idiot,and even if it was true (which it ain't)this would do nothing to help.eventually you'll have to have "this" for your house and"that" for your car,look i can't even continue to finishing writing this post.Scam-Scam-Scam.
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #199 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 4:15am
 
liko please stay around!
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I am from a foreign government. This is not a joke. I am authorised to investigate state and federal bodies including ASIO.
 
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #200 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 8:56am
 
Well constructed argument Liko, "I'm right, everyone else is wrong", it is very persuasive.
Thank god for the extreme right wing, they at least know that god and oil will stop global warming.
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #201 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 12:25pm
 
Liko I found your claims interesting and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Can you please elaborate a bit on this issue for us?
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #202 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 6:35pm
 
What a strange person....?

Huh
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #203 - Jul 26th, 2008 at 8:13pm
 
Yeah come on Liko, put your evidence up for scrutiny, if you are that certain of it.

I do so enjoy reading posts like that.
I remember my favourite from cracker, when fred said that even if it is true about global warming, we need to keep consuming to drive the economy, so we could not afford to stop it, and by the time the earth became uninhabitable, scientists would have developed space travel to the point where we could go live on another planet.
Unfortunately, he wasn't joking, but it was still the funniest thing I read all year.
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #204 - Jul 27th, 2008 at 12:47am
 
Lol. Another strange fella... this Fred.

Shocked
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #205 - Jul 27th, 2008 at 5:58pm
 
What ever happened to Fred? Was he so loathe to leave cracker that he went down with the ship? I remember he seemed pretty hostile to this site, mainly because of my views.
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #206 - Jul 28th, 2008 at 7:31pm
 
I believe this was the last sighting of Fred.
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #207 - Jul 28th, 2008 at 8:12pm
 
I think that photo is far funnier without the text.
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #208 - Jul 29th, 2008 at 9:26am
 
Yes, I agree, but it was just a funny pic which had the text embedded, so I could not be bothered photoshopping it out.

I agree that subtlety can often be far more effective.
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Re: CLIMATE CHANGE
Reply #209 - Jul 29th, 2008 at 2:28pm
 
Quote:
I believe this was the last sighting of Fred.


Fred is over on Debate & Relate.  His attitude hasn't changed, but his English has improved a lot.
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