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NUCLEAR POWER (Read 40471 times)
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #45 - Apr 30th, 2007 at 8:35pm
 
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Lots of things are possible, but battery storage opens another can of environmental worms.

As opposed to the 'environmentally sound' practice of concentrating radioactive isotopes, dumping their excess heat energy into the atmosphere and oceans and then burying them in the ground? Substances with a half life measured in millennia?

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Which is why renewables have their own sets of environmental problems. If sustainabilty is to be paramount then ALL inputs and outputs need to be weighed

Exactly, and renewables use more environmentally sound principles than nuclear power.

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No..they aren't. Not on a large scale, not without associated costs to the environment, not without significant infrastructure costs and associated problems and not without either directly or indirectly increasing damage to the environment...which brings us back to square one in trying to replace coal fired base load power.

Nuclear costs exactly the same as wind and solar plants, but while wind and solar are ready and IN USE (south australia - 20% renewables TODAY, look it up) nuclear is not ready, nor will it be any time soon. There will always be costs with energy production and this is why freedivers point is the most important, we need to pay more for power. This is the only way to send the right message to the consumer.



Exactly zoso. Freediver made some very good points.

And IQ..care to back that up? for once?
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IQSRLOW(Guest)
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #46 - Apr 30th, 2007 at 8:39pm
 
Do you do anything but jump into a debate with nothing to add except divulge your lack of intellect and knowledge on any issue?
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maille
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #47 - Apr 30th, 2007 at 8:45pm
 
   Its clear IQ, you have no real understanding of this subject-you Google the odd blog or 2 and cherrypick a few keywords that sound 'credible'..This does not substitute for an understanding of your subject and any knowledge based in experience as you pretend.

Beo was always telling you off for this.


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IQSRLOW(Guest)
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #48 - Apr 30th, 2007 at 8:50pm
 
Again, you persist with the paranoid delusions that I am someone that knows you or has been on another forum where you post your drivel.

I'm not who you think I am, and that should tell you something about yourself.
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maille
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #49 - Apr 30th, 2007 at 8:53pm
 
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Again, you persist with the paranoid delusions that I am someone that knows you or has been on another forum where you post your drivel.

I'm not who you think I am, and that should tell you something about yourself.



excuse me...what are you talking about?Now whos delusional?
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IQSRLOW(Guest)
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #50 - Apr 30th, 2007 at 9:04pm
 
Beo was always telling you off for this. 

You are delusional sweetheart...I suggest you get some professional help
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freediver
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #51 - May 1st, 2007 at 10:03am
 
Both of you. Discuss the topic, not each other.

Some interesting points about why nuclear is not the best option for Australia:

tonight: Global Warming on the ABC

http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1177892540
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zoso
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #52 - May 1st, 2007 at 10:24am
 
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As opposed to the 'environmentally sound' practice of concentrating radioactive isotopes, dumping their excess heat energy into the atmosphere and oceans and then burying them in the ground? Substances with a half life measured in millennia?

Strawman anyone?

A straw man you say? So are you saying that nuclear power produces no net pollution? Or are you saying that the net pollution from nuclear power is less than that of wind and solar?

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Go look at the chemical composition of modern batteries as well as their lifespan and while your doing that, have a look at all the battery recycling plants within Australia.

Modern batteries are not made of radioactive isostopes of Uranium, or the radioactive by products that these isotopes break down into.

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Exactly, and renewables use more environmentally sound principles than nuclear power.

Which principles would those be?

Use of solar energy instead of either stored chemical potential energy or nuclear energy. Either of which results in excess heat energy being dumped into the atmosphere and oceans that would not otherwise have been dumped into those sinks. By using solar (wave and wind energy are both manifestations of solar energy) you cannot put more energy into the earth system that would not already have been there.

The mining of uranium is more intensive than that of coal, steel or silicone, and the enrichment process is more energy intensive than the refining of either coal, steel or silicone. On top of that we have no infrastructure to enrich uranium in this country meaning some would need to be installed, again more energy and resource requirements, not to mention the fact that this puts the nuclear option somewhere in the distant future at best. There is an already existing renewables industry in this country.

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Nuclear costs exactly the same as wind and solar plants, but... is less reliable and would require land clearing and reduction of biodiversity on a grand scale to be able to service metropolitan areas. 20% is not base load power

Can you say desert? Can you say ocean?

Renewables are perfectly capable of base load power. Can you specify exactly what it is that makes you think they are not? From an engineering perspective the only roadblock to base load production from renewables is cost, there is no physical restraint that prevents them from being able to provide base load. Read what the others have said on flow batteries for one (already providing 100% of king island's power hooked up to wind plants) developments in fuel cell technology is another. Watch this space as fuel cells will hopefully be entering the market soon (provided they aren't killed off by existing energy monopolies), there have been many advancements in this area of late, you don't need to use pure hydrogen for example, ethanol is sufficient. We know that stored chemical potential energy is the most efficient way to transport energy, much more efficient than power lines, all you need to do is convert energy generated by renewables to a stored chemical potential form, as flow batteries and fuel cells do, and the problem of reliability goes away. Not that reliability of wind and sunshine is actually a problem in this country to begin with.
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IQSRLOW(Guest)
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #53 - May 1st, 2007 at 1:03pm
 
The net pollution from establishing base load sufficient wind, solar, flow batteries and implementing these technologies on a large scale has not been fully investigated.

Modern batteries have their own set of environmental problems. Ignoring these and pushing the tired uranium scare-mongering doesn't make them go away.

Can you say desert? Can you say ocean?
Power transmission presents a problem for this scenario

The fact is, the govt and the opposition have both recognised that renewables will only ever make up a fraction of the power requirements needed for the Australian population. Anything else is only a pipedream at this point in time. That's not to say it won't be in the future, but they cannot produce the demand that industry requires.

Even the international energy community recognises that renewables are only good for 15-20% of glabal energy.

Perhaps you know something they don't?
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #54 - May 1st, 2007 at 1:27pm
 
The net pollution from establishing base load sufficient wind, solar, flow batteries and implementing these technologies on a large scale has not been fully investigated.

Not by you. The thing about these technologies is that they are largely modular. You double the capacity, you double the pollution. It is still far less than coal on a per unit energy output basis.

Power transmission presents a problem for this scenario

That's what power lines are for.

The fact is, the govt and the opposition have both recognised that renewables will only ever make up a fraction of the power requirements needed for the Australian population.

99% is a fraction

Even the international energy community recognises that renewables are only good for 15-20% of glabal energy.

This is considering a tradeoff between emissions and the marginal cost. It is nothing inherent to the technologies. It just gets a bit more expensive for higher percentage because you need more storage or you need to adapt to a more variable supply. That percentage is based on an assumption about what people will pay, but if it costs more they will pay more.
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #55 - May 1st, 2007 at 1:38pm
 
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The net pollution from establishing base load sufficient wind, solar, flow batteries and implementing these technologies on a large scale has not been fully investigated.

Neither has nuclear. Howards plan for 25 nuclear plants will amount to some 10% of our power consumption...hardly base load.

You are also forgetting that climate change is not just about CO2, dumping vast quantities of waste thermal energy into the biosphere is still a massive problem that nuclear plants do not solve.

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Modern batteries have their own set of environmental problems. Ignoring these and pushing the tired uranium scare-mongering doesn't make them go away.

Lead acid batteries are one of the most successfully recycled goods we have. Either way, battery waste is not on par with radioactive waste in terms of cost of disposal, or future environmental impacts.

There is no need to scare monger about the dangers of radioactive pollution, it is simply uneconomical to deal with.

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Can you say desert? Can you say ocean?
Power transmission presents a problem for this scenario

Not if you convert the electricity directly into stored chemical energy. This is the way we should be heading anyway, power grids have their own problems.

Neither would it be a problem if we encouraged a decentralisation of power supply (as should be the case for water too). But oh no don't ask anybody to take responsibility for their own existence now...

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The fact is, the govt and the opposition have both recognised that renewables will only ever make up a fraction of the power requirements needed for the Australian population. Anything else is only a pipedream at this point in time. That's not to say it won't be in the future, but they cannot produce the demand that industry requires.

And neither will nuclear... seeing a pattern yet?

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Even the international energy community recognises that renewables are only good for 15-20% of glabal energy.

At current levels of consumption, and current levels of technology. This is why it is important to make people respect the resources they consume by giving them a decent signal through price. This is also why it is important to create a market for these technologies so we can make the engineering advancements that are being stifled right now by this white elephant of a debate over nuclear. Howard announced more money to be spent on chaplains in schools last year than his much touted solar energy funding, and we are looking at investing many more millions of dollars into nuclear plants that won't even come close to base load and even then not for 20 years. Renewables may not be economic for base load TODAY, but TODAY they can do what nuclear can only do in the future. If we just put the money into technology that is ON THE MARKET, made by AUSTRALIAN companies we could have the sort of figures Howard is talking about within 5 years, not 20. And an expanding market for renewables that will create demand for innovation... oh no no, forget that, nuclear is coming...one day...I think...

Coal is a non renewable resource, uranium is a non renewable resource. Ziggy was on the TV the other night and said we have maybe 100 years of uranium as a power source in the world...great plan for sustainabilty there.
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #56 - May 1st, 2007 at 1:57pm
 
Howards plan for 25 nuclear plants will amount to some 10% of our power consumption...hardly base load.

Actually, that's not what baseload means. It refers to the consistency of supply. You can supply 1% of the power and call it baseload if it can be on all the time. We need a large chunk of our supply to be highly reliable. You can get this with a distributed network of renewables of various types and some storage and over capacity. Hydro electric is a good storage option in the sense that it is better than base load. You can switch it on on demand. It can make up for some of the unreliability of renewables without the cost of batteries.

http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1177892540

Fossil fuel-burning industries receive up to $10 billion a year in taxpayers' money, a study has found.

The University of Technology Sydney analysis of energy and transport subsidies released on Monday said 96 per cent of those government funds went to coal, oil and gas companies in 2005-06.

In light of its findings, author Dr Chris Reidy questioned the willingness of federal and state governments to curb greenhouse gas emissions caused by fossil fuels.
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #57 - May 1st, 2007 at 2:22pm
 
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Actually, that's not what baseload means. It refers to the consistency of supply.

Ok fair enough but we need more than 10% of supply to be consistent...
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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #58 - May 2nd, 2007 at 11:17am
 
The limitation on our electrical system is during peak hours.
Having renewablly charged batteries "onhand" to turn on during peak times alleviates this limitation.
Coal stations do not have the ability to rapidly change their suppply load. Batteries do.

Take some customers off the grid and charge batteries all by renewable means.
That gives us breathing space to look at alternatives.
I don't accept the "need" for 25 nuclear stations in auss to be in addition to what we have now.
Follow the money trail. Who wins with nuclear power stattion ?
Construction of new plants, mining for uranuium, refining uranium, running of new plants, shutting down plants when finished .
England has put aside 30 billion pounds (A poor memory figure from me, but a HUGE amount) to shut down some of theirs. They don't know how much it will cost, but they have earmarked a massive amount.

makes solar panels and wind mills look a safe bet to me.


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Re: Nuclear Power for Australia
Reply #59 - May 2nd, 2007 at 11:22am
 
Coal stations do not have the ability to rapidly change their suppply load. Batteries do.

The batteries are a separate issue. You could combine batteries with any other source, including coal. However they add significantly to the cost. So far we have found that it is cheaper to have generating facilities capable of producing the peak demand. With renewables this may change. It may not. It may be cheaper just just have massive overcapacity. The 'rated' capacity of wind turbines are what they will produce the majority of the time in the given location and is usually well below what they actually produce.



State stores nuclear waste 'in car park'

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/State-stores-nuclear-waste-in-car-park/2007/06/03/1180809313168.html

One state is keeping nuclear waste in a shipping container parked in a hospital car park, Industry Minister Ian Macfarlane says.

As the government steps up its campaign to push nuclear energy in Australia, the debate about nuclear waste has also stepped up.

Mr Macfarlane said the states, which oppose housing a nuclear waste dump, needed to be frank about what they were doing with their waste.
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« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2007 at 2:06pm by freediver »  

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