Australian Politics Forum

Australian Politics Forum
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Three Things About Islam http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1328405030 Message started by BlOoDy RiPpEr on Feb 5^th, 2012 at 11:23am

Title: Three Things About Islam
Post by BlOoDy RiPpEr on Feb 5^th, 2012 at 11:23am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w&feature=player_embedded

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 5^th, 2012 at 9:30pm

The propaganda video is full of misinformation.

It starts of by trying to attack Muslims for believing in their Holy Book, the Quran, and tellinfg us how Westerners don't really believe the fairy tales in the Bible. Not really a great argument.

The video says that Muslims must strive to establish Islamic law. But the video does not explain that striving can mean peaceful dialogue. Prophet Muhammed explained that the best type of striving, is to tell the truth to an oppressive ruler. The country of Yemen converted to Islam through dialogue and debating between Muslim scholars and Jewish rabbis.
The video doesn't mention that in Muslim countries administered by Islamic law, Christian and Jewish communities are allowed to have their own courts and administer their own law.

The video mentions sharia tribunals in the UK, without mentioning the fact that participation in them is wholly voluntary - and there are similar Jewish courts operating in Western countries.

The video suggests that Muslims are supposed to lie. nothing could be further from the truth.

It was the honesty of Muslims that first attracted me to find out more about the religion.

This is a fatwa by Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid, a Saudi scholar of Islam.

The importance of being truthful

What is the importance of being truthful, both in personal and business relationships, in Islam? Is lying ever considered an "acceptable" action?

Praise be to God.

Being truthful means speaking the truth and also saying things that reflect reality.

Being truthful is one of the necessities of a human society, one of the virtues of human behaviour, and brings great benefits, whilst lying is one of the major elements of corruption in human society, and the cause of the destruction of social structure and ties, one of the most evil features of bad conduct, and causes widespread harm. Hence Islam commanded truthfulness and forbade lying.

God says (interpretation of the meaning of the Quran):

“O you who believe! Fear God, and be with those who are true (in word and deeds).” [al-Tawbah 9:119]

Ibn Katheer (one of the great scholars of Islam) said (of the above verse): “It means: be truthful and adhere to truthfulness, and you will be among its people and will be saved from calamity, and this will make a way out for you from your problems.”

God says (interpretation of the meaning of the Quran):

“… if they had been true to God, it would have been better for them.” [Muhammad 47:21]

Abdullah ibn Mas’ood said: “The Messenger of God (Muhammed, peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: ‘You must be truthful, for truthfulness leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man will keep speaking the truth and striving to speak the truth until he will be recorded with God as a speaker of the truth. Beware of telling lies, for lying leads to immorality and immorality leads to Hellfire. A man will keep telling lies and striving to tell lies until he is recorded with God as a liar.” (Reported by Muslim, 4721)

This hadeeth indicates that truthfulness leads to righteousness, an all-embracing concept that includes all kinds of goodness and different kinds of righteous deeds. Immorality is basically an inclination towards deviation from the truth, and the immoral person (faajir) is one who is inclined to turn away from the path of guidance. Hence immorality and righteousness are diametrically opposed.

Al-Hasan ibn ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib said: “I memorized the following statement from the Messenger of God (Muhammed, peace and blessings of God be upon him): ‘Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt, for truthfulness is certainty and tranquillity, whilst lying is doubt and confusion.” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 2520; al-Nisaa'i, 8/327; and Ahmad, 1/200)

In the lengthy hadeeth of Abu Sufyaan describing his meeting with Heraclius (ruler of the Byzantines), Abu Sufyaan said: “[Heraclius] said, ‘What does he (Muhammed) command you to do?’ I said, ‘He says: worship God alone and do not associate anything in worship with Him, and abandon that which your forefathers did. He commands us to pray, to be truthful, to be chaste and to uphold the ties of kinship.’” (Reported by al-Bukhari, 1/30 and Muslim, 1773).

Hakeem ibn Hizaam reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “Two parties to a deal have the option of changing their minds until they part; if they are open and honest, their deal will be blessed, and if they conceal and tell lies, the blessing of their deal will be diminished.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 4/275 and Muslim, 1532.)

Truthfulness includes being truthful towards God by worshipping Him sincerely; being truthful towards one’s own soul by making it adhere to the laws of God; and being truthful with people in one's words and by keeping one's promises, and in dealings such as buying, selling and marriage, so there should be no deceiving, cheating, falsifying or withholding of information. Thus a person should be the same on the inside and the outside.

As regards lying, it is highly forbidden, and is of varying degrees of abhorrence and sin. The most obnoxious form of lying is falsely attributing things to God and His Messenger, because this involves fabrication about the religion and is an act of outrage against God. Hence one of the characteristics of the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) is that he truthfully conveyed that which God commanded him to convey. So God said (interpretation of the meaning of the Quran):

“… who does more wrong than one who invents a lie against God, to lead mankind astray without knowledge. Certainly God guides not the people who are evil oppressive wrongdoers ” [al-An’am 6:144]

“And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against God? Such will be brought before their Lord, and the witnesses will say, ‘These are the ones who lied against their Lord!’ No doubt! The curse of God is on the evil oppressive wrongdoers.” [Hood 11:18]

Equally bad is lying about the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him), as he is reported to have said in the mutawaatir hadeeth: “Whoever lies about me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.” (Agreed upon as an authentic narration by Bukhari and Muslim).

The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted, but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying to serve a greater purpose or to prevent harm.

One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way. Um Kalthoom reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “He is not a liar who reconciles between people and conveys something good or says something good.” (Reported by al-Bukhari, 2495).

Another example is a man’s speaking to his wife, or a woman speaking to her husband, with regard to matters that will strengthen the ties of love between them, even if that is accompanied by exaggeration. Asma’ bint Yazeed said: “The Messenger of God (Muhammed, peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717).

One of the most important forms of both being truthful and lying is in the area of promises and covenants. Being truthful in promises and covenants is one of the characteristics by which the believers are known. Both promises and covenants involve saying something about an issue to confirm that you will do it, especially with regard to one's duties towards God. God says, praising some of His worshippers (interpretation of the meanings):

“Those who are faithfully true to their trusts and to their covenants.” [al-Mu’minoon 23:8]

“… and who fulfil their covenant when they make it…” [al-Baqarah 2:177]

“Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with God, of them some have fulfilled their obligations, and some of them are still waiting, but they have never changed [i.e., they never proved treacherous to their covenant which they concluded with God] in the least.” [al-Ahzaab 33:23]

We ask God to make us sincere and truthful in word and deed. And God knows best.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 5^th, 2012 at 9:39pm

The video mentioned that an Islamic tribunal was operating in the the UK (without mentioning that people only participate in it voluntarily).

Well Jews have Jewish courts operating right here in Australia. So Jews must be scary people who want to take over the world according to the logic of the video.

Sydney Beth Din

Since its inception in 1905, the Sydney Beth Din has been recognised as one of the pre-eminent rabbinic courts in the world. It serves Jewish communities in Australia, New Zealand and Asia as a forum for obtaining Jewish divorces, converting to Judaism, confirming personal status and adjudicating disputes stemming from divorce, business and community issues...

http://bethdin.org.au/

Courts outside the usual legal processes can offer better outcomes

Ian Crawshaw
June 16, 2011

Why the big panic over sharia in Australia? Religious courts go hand in hand with free market democracy and are a heroic bulwark against unaffordable justice and creeping socialist totalitarianism. Let me explain why.

Already there are religious courts in operation in Australia, outside the formal legal process. These courts use ancient religious texts in adjudicating on matters as diverse as divorce, property and business dealings - even the terms relating to a financial loan.

They are the beth din, the religious courts of Australia's Jewish community. The Sydney Beth Din has been operating since 1905, and its decisions are widely respected throughout Australia, New Zealand and Asia.

Courts outside the usual legal processes can offer better outcomes

A Sharia law official whips an Indonesian man convicted of gambling.

Why the big panic over sharia in Australia? Religious courts go hand in hand with free market democracy and are a heroic bulwark against unaffordable justice and creeping socialist totalitarianism. Let me explain why.

Already there are religious courts in operation in Australia, outside the formal legal process. These courts use ancient religious texts in adjudicating on matters as diverse as divorce, property and business dealings - even the terms relating to a financial loan.

They are the beth din, the religious courts of Australia's Jewish community. The Sydney Beth Din has been operating since 1905, and its decisions are widely respected throughout Australia, New Zealand and Asia.
Advertisement: Story continues below

So what is the big deal about Islamic courts?...

...A sharia court is simply a non-legally binding option for warring parties to go to arbitration for a decision based on mutually agreed terms of reference.

Extra-judiciary arbitration is a fine tradition in the Westminster system of parliamentary democracy. Indeed, in Britain, it is actually enshrined in law with the 1996 Arbitration Act, giving disputing parties the right to approach an impartial tribunal for a decision they are both bound to accept.

There are estimated to be 85 sharia courts operating in Britain, and the kind of cases they hear and adjudicate might surprise the average Western liberal. Sharia courts are not just for the faithful. Telling the imam you have been a good Muslim all your life really doesn't cut any ice.

In a highly publicised British case in 2008, a Muslim owner of a car fleet rental company was in dispute with his non-Muslim, indigenous English (OK, white) business partner. They agreed to go to sharia for arbitration - and the non-Muslim business partner walked away with $70,000 compensation. In a normal court, that compensation would have disappeared in lawyers' fees.

Disputing parties in Australia have the right to a variety of arbitration tribunals. Got a problem with getting the rental bond back? Then off to a rent tribunal with you. Perhaps you are an Aborigine. Apply to have your grievance heard in a customary law court, a circle of elders overseen by a representative of Her Majesty's government of Australia. You might not be able to legally spear your opponent as in the traditional payback, but you get the chance to have the issue settled according to customary Aboriginal law.

So who's afraid of sharia law? Well, you fellows looking to dissolve your civil partnership after years of blissful gay marriage had best not go to a sharia court for a sensible decision. But don't go to an Australian court, either, because they don't recognise you are married...

...many democracies are proud of the religious beginnings of their judiciary and executive. Here, Federal Parliament is kicked off each morning with The Lord's Prayer. And by some unnamed Aboriginal spirits nowadays, too.

So why would you consider going to a sharia court when next in dispute with your neighbours over their noisy barbecues? Well, in sharia law, your verdict will be considered by a religious leader; a scholar who is simply passing on the message from the book. He's not ''reinterpreting'' the Koran or looking for ''loopholes'' in the words of the prophet, as a secular lawyer would. And he will remind everyone in the court, it's not his decision to make, but the prophet's, and it is applied equally to rich and poor.

Can you fault that in our Western system, where just seeking justice costs tens of thousands of dollars - and where wealthy celebrities take drugs, drink and drive, batter their servants with mobile phones and still parade their ghastly home furnishings in Hello! magazine?

If you don't like sharia, you can always go to the Department of Fair Trade. Or the beth din. Or the Newtown men's drumming circle. These ex-judiciary arbitrations are a voluntary way of avoiding the time and expense of our formal poker-machine legal system, not replacing it. Sharia courts put justice within the reach of the poor, the dispossessed and the marginalised. And to me, they cry: "Freedom!"

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/courts-outside-the-usual-legal-processes-can-offer-better-outcomes-20110615-1g3r2.html

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 5:38am

Kinda like when they made Vegemite kosher about 20 years ago, and none of these goons batted an eyelid. Yet when it was then certified halal recently (nothing changed about the product itself), we saw the uproar.

You can't blame these idiots, they are just mindless drones driven by media sensationalism. They don't have a brain between them to know what's actually going on. They just mindlessly react to what the media wants them to.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 12:29pm

falah wrote on Feb 5^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

Of course he did.
/sarc off

As per ~~falah~~ , Mohamed telling the truth about 'striving'......

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 12:40pm

falah wrote on Feb 5^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

......
The importance of being truthful

What is the importance of being truthful, both in personal and business relationships, in Islam? Is lying ever considered an "acceptable" action?

Praise be to God.

Being truthful means speaking the truth and also saying things that reflect reality.

Being truthful is one of the necessities of a human society, one of the virtues of human behaviour, and brings great benefits, whilst lying is one of the major elements of corruption in human society, and the cause of the destruction of social structure and ties, one of the most evil features of bad conduct, and causes widespread harm. Hence Islam commanded truthfulness and forbade lying.

God says (interpretation of the meaning of the Quran):

“O you who believe! Fear God, and be with those who are true (in word and deeds).” [al-Tawbah 9:119]

Ibn Katheer (one of the great scholars of Islam) said (of the above verse): “It means: be truthful and adhere to truthfulness, and you will be among its people and will be saved from calamity, and this will make a way out for you from your problems.”

God says (interpretation of the meaning of the Quran):

“… if they had been true to God, it would have been better for them.” [Muhammad 47:21]

Abdullah ibn Mas’ood said: “The Messenger of God (Muhammed, peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: ‘You must be truthful, for truthfulness leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man will keep speaking the truth and striving to speak the truth until he will be recorded with God as a speaker of the truth. Beware of telling lies, for lying leads to immorality and immorality leads to Hellfire. A man will keep telling lies and striving to tell lies until he is recorded with God as a liar.” (Reported by Muslim, 4721)

This hadeeth indicates that truthfulness leads to righteousness, an all-embracing concept that includes all kinds of goodness and different kinds of righteous deeds. Immorality is basically an inclination towards deviation from the truth, and the immoral person (faajir) is one who is inclined to turn away from the path of guidance. Hence immorality and righteousness are diametrically opposed.

Al-Hasan ibn ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib said: “I memorized the following statement from the Messenger of God (Muhammed, peace and blessings of God be upon him): ‘Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt, for truthfulness is certainty and tranquillity, whilst lying is doubt and confusion.” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 2520; al-Nisaa'i, 8/327; and Ahmad, 1/200)

In the lengthy hadeeth of Abu Sufyaan describing his meeting with Heraclius (ruler of the Byzantines), Abu Sufyaan said: “[Heraclius] said, ‘What does he (Muhammed) command you to do?’ I said, ‘He says: worship God alone and do not associate anything in worship with Him, and abandon that which your forefathers did. He commands us to pray, to be truthful, to be chaste and to uphold the ties of kinship.’” (Reported by al-Bukhari, 1/30 and Muslim, 1773).

Hakeem ibn Hizaam reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “Two parties to a deal have the option of changing their minds until they part; if they are open and honest, their deal will be blessed, and if they conceal and tell lies, the blessing of their deal will be diminished.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 4/275 and Muslim, 1532.)

Truthfulness includes being truthful towards God by worshipping Him sincerely; being truthful towards one’s own soul by making it adhere to the laws of God; and being truthful with people in one's words and by keeping one's promises, and in dealings such as buying, selling and marriage, so there should be no deceiving, cheating, falsifying or withholding of information. Thus a person should be the same on the inside and the outside.

As regards lying, it is highly forbidden, and is of varying degrees of abhorrence and sin. The most obnoxious form of lying is falsely attributing things to God and His Messenger, because this involves fabrication about the religion and is an act of outrage against God. Hence one of the characteristics of the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) is that he truthfully conveyed that which God commanded him to convey. So God said (interpretation of the meaning of the Quran):

“… who does more wrong than one who invents a lie against God, to lead mankind astray without knowledge. Certainly God guides not the people who are evil oppressive wrongdoers ” [al-An’am 6:144]

“And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against God? Such will be brought before their Lord, and the witnesses will say, ‘These are the ones who lied against their Lord!’ No doubt! The curse of God is on the evil oppressive wrongdoers.” [Hood 11:18]

Equally bad is lying about the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him), as he is reported to have said in the mutawaatir hadeeth: “Whoever lies about me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.” (Agreed upon as an authentic narration by Bukhari and Muslim).

The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted, but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying to serve a greater purpose or to prevent harm.

One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way. Um Kalthoom reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “He is not a liar who reconciles between people and conveys something good or says something good.” (Reported by al-Bukhari, 2495).

Another example is a man’s speaking to his wife, or a woman speaking to her husband, with regard to matters that will strengthen the ties of love between them, even if that is accompanied by exaggeration. Asma’ bint Yazeed said: “The Messenger of God (Muhammed, peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717).

One of the most important forms of both being truthful and lying is in the area of promises and covenants. Being truthful in promises and covenants is one of the characteristics by which the believers are known. Both promises and covenants involve saying something about an issue to confirm that you will do it, especially with regard to one's duties towards God. God says, praising some of His worshippers (interpretation of the meanings):

“Those who are faithfully true to their trusts and to their covenants.” [al-Mu’minoon 23:8]

“… and who fulfil their covenant when they make it…” [al-Baqarah 2:177]

“Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with God, of them some have fulfilled their obligations, and some of them are still waiting, but they have never changed [i.e., they never proved treacherous to their covenant which they concluded with God] in the least.” [al-Ahzaab 33:23]

We ask God to make us sincere and truthful in word and deed. And God knows best.

falah,

You should die of shame.

But i know that you have no shame.

You have only moslem 'honour'.

+++

Quote:

From the Koran, Hadith;

Allah told Mohammed, it is OK to not fulfil the oaths you make.
i.e. If you find something better, you are free to go, and make a better deal, and abandon your first oath.

"Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise."
Koran 66:2

"The Prophet said, "If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath."."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #007.067.427
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.078.618
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.709
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.710
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.712
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.715

"expiate my oath", means an obligation to Allah of penance [Kaffara], e.g. fasting for three days, or to clothe or feed poor people.

"If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.261

"The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: An oath or a vow about something over which a human being has no control, and to disobey Allah, and to break ties of relationship is not binding. If anyone takes an oath and then considers something else better than it, he should give it up, and do what is better, for leaving it is its atonement."
hadithsunnah/abudawud/ #021.3268

"Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "Whoever swears by Allah and then says, 'Allah willing' and then does not do what he has sworn to, has not broken his oath." "
hadithsunnah/muwatta/ #022.22.6.10
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.089.260

Love is not love Which alters when it alteration
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295407319/0#0

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 5:26pm

falah wrote on Feb 5^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

The propaganda video is full of misinformation.

This is a fatwa by Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid, a Saudi scholar of Islam.
As regards lying, it is highly forbidden, and is of varying degrees of abhorrence and sin.

The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted, but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying to serve a greater purpose or to prevent harm.

One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way.

“The Messenger of God (Muhammed, peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717).

So it is ok to tell lies if you are a muslim yet only in the case of

1.You can tell lies to your wife- Is the wife allowed to lie to her husband i dont think so or the good sheikh would have mentioned it perhaps it comes under #3..

2.At times of war - Abu claims we are at war does that explain why he tells lies?

3.In order to reconcile between people.

At least you were honest in posting when a muslim can lie thank you falah.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 7:30pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 12:40pm:

falah,

You should die of shame.

All praise be to God, and may peace and blessing of God be upon His Messenger Muhammed.

You, Yadda, are the one who ascribes partners to God Almighty. If anyone of us should die of shame, it should be you.

Quote:

The principle here is that disobedience to God, and oaths that are not good are invalid.

In regards to the verse you have quoted, first of all, you mislead by not saying what the context of the verse is.

The verse came down when the Prophet swore an oath by God Almighty that he would never eat honey again. God Almighty immediately sent revealation to the Prophet informing him that such an oath is not accepted. God Almighty informs man thats such oaths that prevent a person from doing something good can be expiated.

Quote:

It is narrated from 'Aisha, the wife of the holy Prophet by Bukhari, Muslim, Nasai. Abu Dawud and others that the holy Prophet usually visited all his wives daily after 'Asr Prayer. Once it so happened that he stayed longer than usual at the quarters of Zainab bint Jahsh, for she had received from somewhere some honey which the holy Prophet liked very much. "At this", says 'Aisha, "I felt jealous, and Hafsa, Sawda, Safiya, and I agreed among ourselves that when he visits us each of us would tell him that a peculiar odour came from his mouth as a result of what he had eaten, for we knew that he was particularly sensitive to offensive smells". So when his wives hinted at it, he vowed that he would never again use honey. Thereupon these verses were revealed reminding him that he should not declare to himself unlawful that which God had made lawful to him. The important point to bear in mind is that he was at once rectified by revelation, which reinforces the fact that the prophets are always under divine protection, and even the slightest lapse on their part is never left uncorrected.

Secondly the translation you have provided is not correct. A better translation reads something like this:

1. O Prophet! Why do you make forbidden (for yourself) that which God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

2. God has already ordained for you, the expiation of your oaths. And God is your Protector and He is the All-Knower, the All-Wise.

God is being merciful. If someone swears to God that they will refrain from something, and this oath prevents the person from doing a good deed or what is righteous, then God has allowed the person to do the good deed.

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 12:40pm:

"The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: An oath or a vow about something over which a human being has no control, and to disobey Allah, and to break ties of relationship is not binding. If anyone takes an oath and then considers something else better than it, he should give it up, and do what is better, for leaving it is its atonement."
hadithsunnah/abudawud/ #021.3268

The principle is that an evil oath or one that prevents a person from obeying God or doing good is not valid. Disobeying God is makes an oath invalid. For example, if someone swears an oath to kill an innocent person, he must break his oath.

Quote:

"Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "Whoever swears by Allah and then says, 'Allah willing' and then does not do what he has sworn to, has not broken his oath." "
hadithsunnah/muwatta/ #022.22.6.10

Once again your translation is inaccurate. A more accurate translation would be "Whoever swears by God and then says (as part of his oath), '...if God wills.' and then does not do what he has sworn to, has not broken his oath."It is just a matter of common sense. If someone said "I will do such and such, if God wills." Then if he was unable to do it, obviously God didn't will it, so he has told the truth.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 7:41pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 5:26pm:

falah wrote on Feb 5^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

A husband and wife can tell small lies to each other. It could be detrimental to a marriage if this exception were not allowed. Imagine if all husbands answered their wives truthfully when asked "Does this clothing make me look fat?" or "So, how was my cooking?"

Even in warfare, Muslims are not allowed to lie about Islam. Deceit in warfare applies to strategies and tactics. All countries use deceit in warfare. Did the US announce to the Nazis where they would land on D-Day? Or did the US try to deceive the Nazis and make them think that they would land elsewhere?

Reconciling between two people applies to Muslims only and would involve saying "So and so said something good about you". It is not a carte blanche to tell any sort of lie.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 7:51pm

A snippet from falah's post.....

Quote:

The principle here is that disobedience to God, and oaths that are not good are invalid.

".....oaths that are not good are invalid."

Yadda paraphrases.....

'I'll make you a promise [a covenant]. And at a later date, if i judge that my promise [my covenant] is not a 'good' promise, then my promise [my covenant] is invalid.'

What a crock of moslem double-speak.

+++

Here, is one of falah's other posts, just yesterday, telling us all, about how truthful and trust worthy moslems are, and how honouring their covenants is soooooo important to a moslem.......

falah wrote on Feb 5^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

The importance of being truthful

yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada,................

One of the most important forms of both being truthful and lying is in the area of promises and covenants.

Being truthful in promises and covenants is one of the characteristics by which the believers are known.

err, excepting [i.e. the moslem 'get out'] if......

'If make you a promise [a covenant]. And at a later date, if i judge that my promise [my covenant] is not a 'good' promise, then my promise [my covenant] is invalid.'

+++

What does God's Bible say about a man keeping to his word, to his agreements, to his covenants......???

Numbers 30:2
If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 8:00pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 7:51pm:

What does God's Bible say about a man keeping to his word, to his agreements, to his covenants......???

Numbers 30:2
If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

How highly does God, regard men, in keeping to their word [their spoken agreements]........... ???

Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.

"......He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not."

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 8:11pm

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Quote:

Once again your translation is inaccurate. A more accurate translation would be "Whoever swears by God and then says (as part of his oath), '...if God wills.' and then does not do what he has sworn to, has not broken his oath."It is just a matter of common sense.

If someone said "I will do such and such, if God wills." Then if he was unable to do it, obviously God didn't will it, so he has told the truth.

Yadda paraphrases......

"I will do something for you, i sware by Allah. But hey, if Allah doesn't allow me to follow through on my oath, and fulfil my promise, then you can take it up with Allah.
COZ, IT IS NOT MY FAULT, IF I DIDN'T DO WHAT I SAID I WOULD."

What a crock.i+++

What does this all mean ???

It means, in reality, that a verbal agreement with a moslem, isn't worth the paper that it is written on.

And even many of those [i.e. the written ones] turn out to be worthless.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 8:17pm

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 12:40pm:

falah,

You should die of shame.

All praise be to God, and may peace and blessing of God be upon His Messenger Muhammed.

falah,

You are merely uttering a curse upon yourself.

++++++++

And, partners with God ?

You have no understanding.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:09pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 8:17pm:

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 12:40pm:

falah,

You should die of shame.

All praise be to God, and may peace and blessing of God be upon His Messenger Muhammed.

falah,

You are merely uttering a curse upon yourself.

++++++++

And, partners with God ?

You have no understanding.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

I suggest that we ask God to curse which ever one of us is on the false religion. Do you agree?

Polytheism In The Bible

In those days, and for some time after, giant Nephilites lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with women, they gave birth to children who became the heroes and famous warriors of ancient times.
Genesis 6:4

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Deuteronomy 32:8

Meanwhile, the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn sons, whom the LORD had killed the night before. The LORD had defeated the gods of Egypt that night with great acts of judgment!
Numbers 33:4

A psalm for David, at the finishing of the tabernacle. Bring to the Lord, O ye children of God: bring to the Lord the offspring of rams.
Psalm 29:1

God stands in the congregation of the mighty; he judges among the gods.
Psalm 82:1

There is none like you among the gods, O Lord,
nor are there any works like yours.
Psalms 86:8)

For the LORD is a great God, a great King above all gods.
Psalm 95:3

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:6

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luke 3:22 ...Thou art my beloved
Son; in thee I am well pleased.

2 Peter 1:17 ...This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 28:19
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us. 1 John 3:23

Matthew 28:19
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Unity of Islam or "Trinity" of Christianity, which one sounds polytheistic?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:38pm

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:09pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 8:17pm:

And, partners with God ?

You have no understanding.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

falah,

I could explain the 'trinity' to you, but, you are a moslem [.......i.e. there is no capacity for understanding anything spiritual].

And MY explanation would not help you.

We need more spiritual power [....for you to comprehend].

So, pray to God.

Maybe he will have pity upon you.

But pray to which God ???

falah,

You have to pray to >> GOD <<, the real one.
......not to a demon.

Listen to me carefully;

What you have to say is;

"Dear father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.....[and then plead you case]."
.....that is the correct 'phone #'

Exodus 3:15
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Got it falah ?

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:55pm

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:09pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 8:17pm:

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 12:40pm:

falah,

You should die of shame.

All praise be to God, and may peace and blessing of God be upon His Messenger Muhammed.

falah,

You are merely uttering a curse upon yourself.

++++++++

And, partners with God ?

You have no understanding.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

I suggest that we ask God to curse which ever one of us is on the false religion. Do you agree?

falah,

This is of no consequence.

But go for it.

I have asked God for his protection.

I have a special, personal prayer, and i have asked God to surround me with his light.

And while-soever my God is protecting me, NO DEMON CAN TOUCH ME.

So, go your hardest falah.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 10:00pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:55pm:

So you have wussed it? Afraid your religion is not true after all?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 10:09pm

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 10:00pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:55pm:

So you have wussed it? Afraid your religion is not true after all?

LOL

I don't need to curse anyone.

That is not how it works.

That is not what is in my heart.

Rebuking and correction, yes.

But i try to refrain from cursing ppl.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:47am

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 10:09pm:

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 10:00pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:55pm:

So you have wussed it? Afraid your religion is not true after all?

LOL

I don't need to curse anyone.

That is not how it works.

That is not what is in my heart.

Rebuking and correction, yes.

But i try to refrain from cursing ppl.

Deep in your heart you know your religion is wrong and you know that God is not on your side.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:00pm

falah wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:47am:

Deep in your heart you know your religion is wrong and you know that God is not on your side.

If his religion is wrong would that be a false belief falah?

Is the definition of delusion a "false belief"?

If Islam is the only true religion does that mean those who follow other religions are delusional?

Christians and jews go to the hellfire for following a flawed belief, Allah makes it very clear Islam is the only religion.

Quote:

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam,it will never be accepted of him,and in the hereafter he will be one of the losers.
Source-http://quran.com/3/85

Got any nice verses that contradict 3:85 Falah?

What does sura 4:82 say about contradictions?
Does the fine print in the Quran clearly state it is not from Allah?
http://quran.com/4/82

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:29pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:00pm:

falah wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:47am:

Deep in your heart you know your religion is wrong and you know that God is not on your side.

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam,it will never be accepted of him,and in the hereafter he will be one of the losers.
Source-http://quran.com/3/85

Got any nice verses that contradict 3:85 Falah?

What does sura 4:82 say about contradictions?
Does the fine print in the Quran clearly state it is not from Allah?
http://quran.com/4/82

I don't need to contradict it, because it is the truth. Whoever rejects the monotheism of Islam will go to Hell.

That is basic islamic doctrine, why would I wish to contradict it?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:49pm

falah wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:00pm:

falah wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:47am:

Deep in your heart you know your religion is wrong and you know that God is not on your side.

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam,it will never be accepted of him,and in the hereafter he will be one of the losers.
Source-http://quran.com/3/85

Got any nice verses that contradict 3:85 Falah?

What does sura 4:82 say about contradictions?
Does the fine print in the Quran clearly state it is not from Allah?
http://quran.com/4/82

I don't need to contradict it, because it is the truth. Whoever rejects the monotheism of Islam will go to Hell.

That is basic islamic doctrine, why would I wish to contradict it?

That was easy, thanks, Jackie:

WHatever Mohammed heard in the cave and then remembered enough of it on the way home from the cave, and then whatever his listeners remembered for a couple of decades of what he said when he got home and whatever the scribes understood of what those aging audience members still remembered - is god's unaletarable word, complete and unalterable. Perfect.

Next week you will tell us how to play the flute, no doubt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNfGyIW7aHM

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 4:13pm

All praise is due to God Almighty. May the blessings and peace of God be upon His messenger Muhammed.

Soren wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

WHatever Mohammed heard in the cave

Soren, if you knew anything about islamic history, you would know that only a few lines were revealed in the cave.

Soren wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

and then whatever his listeners remembered for a couple of decades of what he said when he got home and whatever the scribes understood of what those aging audience members still remembered - is god's unaletarable word, complete and unalterable.

We have gone over this before, but you refuse to learn anything.

The Quran was written down in the time of Prophet Muhammed. It was also completely memorised by many people.

That is one of the miracles of the Quran; it is amazingly easy to remember.

For example, there are millions of people in the country of Egypt alone who have memorised the entire Quran. There are 10's of millions who have memorised it throughout the world - unlike any other book.

The fact that many people memorised it entirely in the lifetime of prophet Muhammed ensured that it could not be corrupted - each memoriser is a an evidence against the others. If it were corrupted, there would be different versions - yet there is only one version.

Anyway, the Quran was written down in the lifetime of the Prophet - contrary to what you suggest. In fact, Prophet Muhammed actually encouraged people to learn to read and write, and freed prisoners of war who taught Muslims how to read and write.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 7:16pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

And, partners with God ?

You have no understanding.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

So why do you reject this part of your book, and instead believe in 3, when your book doesn't even state that? Yes it's good you quote your book, now actually adhere to it.

Your book clearly and unambiguously states that God is 1. If your religion had any consistency or logic or sense to it, then you'd need an equally clear and unambiguous verse to override this, as you seem to think it is overridden. Yet we both know that no such verse exists. Christians themselves know full well their belief in trinity is based purely on the dogma of the Nicene creed, and has no clear scriptural basis at all. But when your belief is about stupefying the heart into "just believing" then such facts are rarely investigated.

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

I suggest that we ask God to curse which ever one of us is on the false religion. Do you agree?

The only reason you would refuse to do this Yadda is because you do know deep down you are on falsehood. That at least means there's some hope for you somewhere down the line. It might just eat away at you, and prompt you to ponder about things...

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

I could explain the 'trinity' to you, but, you are a moslem [.......i.e. there is no capacity for understanding anything spiritual].

And MY explanation would not help you.

I don't think you can even explain it to yourself. Most Christians cannot. Hence the "mystery of the trinity" and "Just believe and Jesus will open your heart!!" and all the other mantras used to convince Christians to believe the things they do.

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

Listen to me carefully;

What you have to say is;

"Dear father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.....[and then plead you case]."
.....that is the correct 'phone #'

I bear witness that the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Isaac, of Jacob and of the tribes of Israel is the only one and true God, and I call on him to guide you away from your cult of demi-god worship and paying homage to a particular ethnicity, and instead to bring you to the worship of him alone.

The one who worships demons is the one who has strayed from the pure monotheism of all the patriarchs. You are a follower of the false prophet Saul of Tarsus who called you to worship other than God, not of the pure unadulterated religion of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes of Israel.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:45pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

I suggest that we ask God to curse which ever one of us is on the false religion. Do you agree?

Abu,
I am just correcting your attribution.....

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:09pm:

I suggest that we ask God to curse which ever one of us is on the false religion. Do you agree?

And regards your comment.....

"The only reason you would refuse to do this Yadda is because you do know deep down you are on falsehood."

Abu,

I told falah, if he wishes to curse me.....

"....go your hardest falah."

...and we will see who the curse comes down upon.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:27am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

And, partners with God ?

You have no understanding.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

So why do you reject this part of your book, and instead believe in 3,

when your book doesn't even state that? Yes it's good you quote your book, now actually adhere to it.

Abu,
What do i believe ?

You seem to be saying that i believe 'in three' gods?

Is that what you insist ?

Clearly Abu, you know my mind, even better than i do.
/sarc off

"Yadda believes in 3 gods. I, Abu, said so. And i only say things which are true,.......because i am a good moslem."
abu_rashid
/sarc off

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Your book clearly and unambiguously states that God is 1. If your religion had any consistency or logic or sense to it, then you'd need an equally clear and unambiguous verse to override this, as you seem to think it is overridden. Yet we both know that no such verse exists. Christians themselves know full well their belief in trinity is based purely on the dogma of the Nicene creed, and has no clear scriptural basis at all. But when your belief is about stupefying the heart into "just believing" then such facts are rarely investigated.

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

I could explain the 'trinity' to you, but, you are a moslem [.......i.e. there is no capacity for understanding anything spiritual].

And MY explanation would not help you.

I don't think you can even explain it to yourself.

Most Christians cannot. Hence the "mystery of the trinity" and "Just believe and Jesus will open your heart!!" and all the other mantras used to convince Christians to believe the things they do.

Abu,

Who are 'the three' gods, which i believe in ??? [<---- which YOU claim, i believe in.]

The Father.
The Son.
....and the Holy Spirit.
???

Abu,
What did Jesus say about the nature of 'God' ???

John 4:24
God is a Spirit:...

Abu,
So tell me, is God, a spirit?

+++

Abu,

A simple analogy, straight from God.

Are you any good at chemistry ???

Apart from being two atoms of hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen,
.....what is H2O Abu ???

Abu,

If H2O is water....

Does H2O, cease to be H2O when it is in a gaseous form, all around us, in the air ?

And does H2O, cease to be H2O when it is ice ?

So, we have H2O taking three 'forms'.

Which one is the real, the 'valid', H2O Abu ?

Abu,

What you, and all moslems are saying, are insisting, is that God, cannot take on the form of a man [e.g. Jesus, the man].

You are mistaken.

You are lost, overcome, in the falsehood of ISLAM, Abu.

Abu said....

Quote:

"....it's good you quote your book, now actually adhere to it."

Abu,

You are the expert of the trinity [you even have the power to know what i believe].
/sarc off

Scripture says that >> God << appeared to Abraham, as a man.

Tell me Abu, was it God the Father, or was it God the Son, that appeared to Abraham ???

"And the LORD appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him:"
Genesis 18

Genesis 18 also declares that God ate Abraham's food, and that Abraham's water washed God's feet.

But moslems insist that God could never do that [take human form, and eat food].

And ISLAM must be correct, right Abu ?

2 Timothy 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 6:35am

Yadda wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:45pm:

Abu,
I am just correcting your attribution.....

It should've been like this. Of course I know you'd never make such a suggestion, as you know deep down you're on falsehood.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:09pm:

I suggest that we ask God to curse which ever one of us is on the false religion. Do you agree?

Yadda wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:45pm:

Are you afraid of cursing yourself?

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:27am:

Abu,
What do i believe ?

You seem to be saying that i believe 'in three' gods?

Is that what you insist ?

Quite clearly you do, as you later go on to use all the usual metaphysical mumbo jumbo about the 3 states of matter to try and justify it. You do not cease in comparing your Creator to that which he created, because you are an idolator.

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:27am:

Who are 'the three' gods, which i believe in ??? [<---- which YOU claim, i believe in.]

The Father.
The Son.
....and the Holy Spirit.
???

Abu,
What did Jesus say about the nature of 'God' ???

John 4:24
God is a Spirit:...

Abu,
So tell me, is God, a spirit?

The holy spirit is a servant of God, as is Jesus (pbuh). They are not God and worshipping them as God or "components of God" is polytheism.

If you look at the references to "holy spirit" (ie. ruh ha-qodesh) in the OT, you'll find this is indeed the case.

Even this quote you bring from the NT says God is "a spirit", doesn't say the Holy Spirit. Again, your fundamental beliefs about God are all based on conjecture and ambiguous passages, pushing aside the clear and unambiguous passages which call you to worship the one true God.

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:27am:

A simple analogy, straight from God.

Are you any good at chemistry ???

Apart from being two atoms of hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen,
.....what is H2O Abu ???

Abu,

If H2O is water....

Does H2O, cease to be H2O when it is in a gaseous form, all around us, in the air ?

And does H2O, cease to be H2O when it is ice ?

So, we have H2O taking three 'forms'.

Which one is the real, the 'valid', H2O Abu ?

How is this analogy from God? Rather it is from your own mind, or that of some preacher that you heard it from (as it is an analogy that's been around for some time now).

You have absolutely no shame in making up whatever you like about God.

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:27am:

What you, and all moslems are saying, are insisting, is that God, cannot take on the form of a man [e.g. Jesus, the man].

You are mistaken.

You are lost, overcome, in the falsehood of ISLAM, Abu.

This kind of argument is a slippery slope into blasphemy. One might then ask can God become a cow or Elephant as the Hindus claim? It's not so much a matter of can, it's more a matter of what befits his majesty. God is not part of his own creation. Christians often try to use this false argument that monotheists are "limiting" God by stating he did not become a man, but in fact you are the one limiting him, by suggesting he would need to become part of his creation in order to understand and interact with it. The entire Christian doctrine is based upon this idea that God couldn't get close to his creation, so he had to become a man to do so.

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:27am:

Scripture says that >> God << appeared to Abraham, as a man.

Tell me Abu, was it God the Father, or was it God the Son, that appeared to Abraham ???

"And the LORD appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him:"
Genesis 18

Genesis 18 also declares that God ate Abraham's food, and that Abraham's water washed God's feet.

But moslems insist that God could never do that [take human form, and eat food].

And ISLAM must be correct, right Abu ?

Well the OT is also not free from polytheistic elements as well, it also talks about sons of God having intercourse with women etc. (as falah mentioned). Islam teaches both Jews and Christians went stray and corrupted their books. In fact the OT is riddled with corruptions and modifications. Personally I think the entire "second story" that's been inserted into the OT (ie. the one which uses Yahweh instead of Eloah) was completely fabricated.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:11pm

Abu,

Before getting online this morning, i prayed.

"Is it worth my persevering with Abu ?
He continues to adamantly reject your spirit LORD."

Do you know what 'came back' Abu ?

"Donkey's are beasts. They don't receive messages from men. They are beasts which carry burdens, for others."

i.e.
"The message you give to 'him', is not for him [Abu]."

Yadda wrote on Feb 4^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:

Just keep saying no, Abu.

Just keep saying you can't 'see it', Abu.

Just keep insisting that Allah, is the name of your God. [.......I BELIEVE YOU Abu !!!!]

LOL

+++

Abu,

On a battlefield, why do men raise a flag, a standard Abu ?

Is it not, so as to rally the respective troops, to the standard being flown ?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:25pm

falah wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 4:13pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

We have gone over this before, but you refuse to learn anything.

The Quran was written down in the time of Prophet Muhammed.

It was not.

There were scraps of it all over the place. As a single book, it did not exist until the genius Caliph Whatsis decided to put it all into a book, chapters arranged by length (!). What a great idea! Never mind chronological order, how about sorting by length! Like cdrpets in the bazaar!
Yeay! Good one! That will make it clear and easy to follow, what with abrogations and afterthoughts and contradictions. Might as well jumble it all up.

Done!

Muslim version of the story:

Quote:

The Holy Quran (also written as Koran) is the eternal and literal word of God. Prophet Muhammad ( an Arab and a descendant of Abraham) received these divine revelations (The Holy Quran) over a period of 23 years in the seventh century of the Common Era (C.E.). Each revelation was written down by the Prophet's scribes according to the Prophet's instructions. The current order and organization into the 114 chapters (surahs) of the entire revelations were therefore given to us by the Prophet himself. Additionally, the Prophet and many fellow Muslims (sahabah) had committed the entire Quran to memory. The practice of memorizing the whole Quran continued throughout the centuries. There are thousands of such Muslims, known as Huffaz, usually one for each Mosque in Muslim countries. To learn more on this, please read Preservation of the Quran.

[url]http://www.islam101.com/quran/index.htm

The non-propaganda version of what happened (ie the truth):

Quote:

In the 19th century the Danish scholar Theodor Nöldeke, in his influential Geschichte des Qorans (1860; “History of the Qurʾān”), largely rejected the Islamic understanding of the process whereby the text of the Qurʾān was compiled. Since then others, such as I. Goldziher, Richard Bell, and Jeffrey and W.M. Watt, have challenged the traditional Islamic perspective, while more recently John Wansbrough and John Burton have completely rejected pious traditions concerning the compilation of the Qurʾān.

Encyclopedia Britannica (and everywhere else where Muslims are not able to cut your tongue out for challenging their version)

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Karnal on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:43pm

You're back in the Islamic club, my dear fellow. Good to see.

Kindly make Soren feel welcome, Abu. Remember, a guest is like Gud.

Sala'am Aleikum, old boy.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:44pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

Listen to me carefully;

What you have to say is;

"Dear father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.....[and then plead you case]."
.....that is the correct 'phone #'

I bear witness that the God of Abraham, of Ishmael, of Isaac, of Jacob and of the tribes of Israel is the only one and true God,

and I call on him to guide you away from your cult of demi-god worship and paying homage to a particular ethnicity, and instead to bring you to the worship of him alone.

The one who worships demons is the one who has strayed from the pure monotheism of all the patriarchs. You are a follower of the false prophet Saul of Tarsus who called you to worship other than God, not of the pure unadulterated religion of Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes of Israel.

Abu,

Scripture does not confirm, rather, it contradicts the 'truth' which you declare......

Genesis 21:10
Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

Genesis 21:12
And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Galatians 4:22
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

ISLAM = = is after the flesh [i.e. is 'after' the war booty!!] .

ISLAM is bondage.

Slaves of Allah.

Slaves of the curse upon mankind.

Eyes to see ?

+++

What say's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ?

Psalms 146:8
The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:
9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.
10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

Abu,
Do you, every day, speak the truth in your heart ?

It is a simple question.

Do you speak the truth in your heart ?

Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.

OR, are you, just like your master, your lord ???

n.b.
According to the Koran [i.e. according to Allah himself], 'Allah is the best of schemers.' [.....the best deceiver]

And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.
Koran 3.54

Google;
99 names of allah, deceiver

+++

Play your game Abu.

And walk your path of deceit, serving YOUR master,.....fighting against the 'unbelievers'.

THAT, is your choice.

That, is the path [of lies] which you have chosen.

LOL

Abu,
The Koran declares that, 'Allah is the best of schemers.' [.....the best deceiver]

And some men break their covenants.

But the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob does not break his covenant with his people.

Deuteronomy 31:20
For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.

Psalms 89:34
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Isaiah 44:1
Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 40:1
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

And in the Bible, the *God of Israel*, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is attributed thus,

Job 12:16
With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

Psalms 2:1
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psalms 83:3
They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7 Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8 Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.

+++

Yadda wrote on Feb 4^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:

Just keep saying no, Abu.

Just keep saying you can't 'see it', Abu.

Just keep insisting that Allah, is the name of your God. [.......I BELIEVE YOU Abu !!!!]

LOL

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 1:24pm

Soren wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:25pm:

[RE, CREDIBILITY OF THE 'ACCURACY' OF THE MODERN KORAN.....]

Muslim version of the story:

Quote:

[url]http://www.islam101.com/quran/index.htm

The non-propaganda version of what happened (ie the truth):
[quote]In the 19th century the Danish scholar Theodor Nöldeke, in his influential Geschichte des Qorans (1860; “History of the Qurʾān”), largely rejected the Islamic understanding of the process whereby the text of the Qurʾān was compiled. Since then others, such as I. Goldziher, Richard Bell, and Jeffrey and W.M. Watt, have challenged the traditional Islamic perspective, while more recently John Wansbrough and John Burton have completely rejected pious traditions concerning the compilation of the Qurʾān.

Encyclopedia Britannica (and everywhere else where Muslims are not able to cut your tongue out for challenging their version)

[/quote]

Apparently a Western ISLAMIC expert was invited to do research in Sanna, Yemen, in the 1970's

In an old mosque, he uncovered, discovered, the oldest known segments of the Koran.

CORRECTION....

Quote:

In 1972, construction workers renovating a wall in the attic of the Great Mosque of Sana'a in Yemen came across large quantities of old manuscripts and parchments. They didn't realize what they had found and gathered up the documents, packed them away into some twenty potato sacks, and left them on the staircase of one of the mosque's minarets.[2]

Qadhi Isma'il al-Akwa', then the president of the Yemeni Antiquities Authority realized the potential importance of the find. Al-Akwa' sought international assistance in examining and preserving the fragments, and in 1979 managed to interest a visiting German scholar, who in turn persuaded the West German government to organize and fund a restoration project.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscripts

Problem is, the 'modern' Koran and these [known to be the very] oldest Koran segments, don't 'match up'.

Google;
oldest koran segments found Sanaa, Yemen, differ, from modern koran

i.e.
'The Sana'a Manuscripts'
.......are NOT the ISLAMIC equivalent, of the dead Sea Scrolls !!!!!

LOL

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 2:47pm

about 'The Sana'a Manuscripts'....

Quote:

[Researchers with a variety of academic and theological interests are proposing controversial theories about the Koran and Islamic history, and are striving to reinterpret Islam for the modern world. This is, as one scholar puts it, a "sensitive business"]

Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.
.......The first person to spend a significant amount of time examining the Yemeni fragments, in 1981, was Gerd-R. Puin, a specialist in Arabic calligraphy and Koranic paleography based at Saarland University, in Saarbrücken, Germany. Puin, who had been sent by the German government to organize and oversee the restoration project, recognized the antiquity of some of the parchment fragments, and his preliminary inspection also revealed unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations, and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment. Enticing, too, were the sheets of the scripture written in the rare and early Hijazi Arabic script: pieces of the earliest Korans known to exist, they were also palimpsests -- versions very clearly written over even earlier, washed-off versions. What the Yemeni Korans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D.
Since the early 1980s more than 15,000 sheets of the Yemeni Korans have painstakingly been flattened, cleaned, treated, sorted, and assembled; they now sit ("preserved for another thousand years," Puin says) in Yemen's House of Manuscripts, awaiting detailed examination. That is something the Yemeni authorities have seemed reluctant to allow, however. "They want to keep this thing low-profile, as we do too, although for different reasons," Puin explains. "They don't want attention drawn to the fact that there are Germans and others working on the Korans. They don't want it made public that there is work being done at all, since the Muslim position is that everything that needs to be said about the Koran's history was said a thousand years ago."
......."Their variant readings and verse orders are all very significant. Everybody agrees on that. These manuscripts say that the early history of the Koranic text is much more of an open question than many have suspected: the text was less stable, and therefore had less authority, than has always been claimed."
.....In 1994 the journal Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam published a posthumous study by Yehuda D. Nevo, of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, detailing seventh- and eighth-century religious inscriptions on stones in the Negev Desert which, Nevo suggested, pose "considerable problems for the traditional Muslim account of the history of Islam."
.......Not surprisingly, then, given the biases of much non-Islamic critical study of the Koran, Muslims are inclined to dismiss it outright.

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.php

"......What the Yemeni Korans seemed to suggest, Puin began to feel, was an evolving text rather than simply the Word of God as revealed in its entirety to the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century A.D."

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 9:59pm

Are you saying he is not the God of Ishmael (pbuh)?

Your own book again contradicts you:

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Genesis 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Genesis 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Genesis 17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

Genesis 17:24 And Abraham [was] ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Genesis 17:25 And Ishmael his son [was] thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

Genesis 17:26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

Clearly one of the verses is out of whack there and perhaps once read that the covenant was established with Ishmael (pbuh), but it was later doctored to read Isaac (pbuh), just like the verse about taking his only son Isaac to sacrifice him, when obviously the only time he would've had an only son it would've been Ishmael.

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

The only time the land between the great river of Egypt and the Euphrates was ruled by the seed of Abraham (pbuh) it was by the Ishmaelite Arabs.

And then it mentions the sign of the covenant:

Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

And as we saw above, the sign of the covenant was carried out with Ishmael (pbuh). Before Isaac (pbuh) was even born. Clearly your own books tells you the facts, but due to your worship of a particular race, you reject all this.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 10:11pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 1:24pm:

i.e.
'The Sana'a Manuscripts'
.......are NOT the ISLAMIC equivalent, of the dead Sea Scrolls !!!!!

LOL

It's amusing to hear a Christian make such a statement, since you are probably completely unaware what the DSS even contain. In fact they differ significantly in thousands of passages from the modern copies of the OT.

Quote:

According to The Oxford Companion to Archaeology:
The biblical manuscripts from Qumran, which include at least fragments from every book of the Old Testament, except perhaps for the Book of Esther, provide a far older cross section of scriptural tradition than that available to scholars before. While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text from only three manuscript families: of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around A.D. 100.

About 35% of the DSS biblical manuscripts belong to the Masoretic tradition (MT), 5% to the Septuagint family, and 5% to the Samaritan, with the remainder unaligned. The non-aligned fall into two categories, those inconsistent in agreeing with other known types, and those that diverge significantly from all other known readings. The DSS thus form a significant witness to the mutability of biblical texts at this period. The sectarian texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls, most of which were previously unknown, offer new light on one form of Judaism practiced during the Second Temple period.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls)

There's also many texts in the DSS that do not exist in the modern day OT.

On top of this, there is also the Samaritan Torah, which disagrees quite significantly with the Jewish Torah. In fact the language of the Jewish Torah compared to that of the Samaritan Torah is like comparing the language of an adult to that of a small child. The Hebrew of the Jewish Torah frequently mixes up grammatical gender and is riddled with all sorts of language mistakes, indicating it is the inferior text that was probably plagiarised from the Samaritan Torah.

Did your pastor only tell you about the parts that match up? And leave out all the bits about the divergences? I'm not surprised, most Christians are under the impression the DSS confirmed the textual integrity of their books, it did not.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 10:21pm

Never mind the DDS.

Tell us about the discrepancy of the unaltered Koran and the Yemeni text.
Is the latter a jewish hoax hidden in a mosque?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:09pm

Soren, like the DSS the Yemeni scrolls could well have been the property of an obscure sect. There were several heretical sects in the history of Islam who may well have had deviant texts.

The simple fact is though the vast pool of memorisers and the codification of the text for mainstream Muslims preserved it faithfully till this day.

Christians cannot handle this fact, and so they resort to such pathetic arguments to try and invent some alternative history that matches theirs.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 12:15pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 10:11pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 1:24pm:

i.e.
'The Sana'a Manuscripts'
.......are NOT the ISLAMIC equivalent, of the dead Sea Scrolls !!!!!

LOL

Examine the evidence.

Make your own mind up.

Google;
Dead Sea Scrolls, prove integrity of bible?

Quote:

Here is the frequency of books found among DSS
[quote]Psalms 39
Deuteronomy 33
1 Enoch 25
Genesis 24
Isaiah 22
Jubilees 21
Exodus 18
Leviticus 17
Numbers 11
Minor Prophets 10
Daniel 8
Jeremiah 6
Ezekiel 6
Job 6
1 & 2 Samuel 4

[/quote]
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1232021630/1#1

See also.....

"The inerrant Koran???"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 7:58pm

Here's some interesting facts about the DSS for you Yadda:

1.The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in eleven caves along the northwest shore of the Dead Sea between the years 1947 and 1956. The area is 13 miles east of Jerusalem and is 1300 feet below sea level. The mostly fragmented texts, are numbered according to the cave that they came out of. They have been called the greatest manuscript discovery of modern times. See a Dead Sea Scroll Jar.

2. Only Caves 1 and 11 have produced relatively intact manuscripts. Discovered in 1952, Cave 4 produced the largest find. About 15,000 fragments from more than 500 manuscripts were found.
3. In all, scholars have identified the remains of about 825 to 870 separate scrolls.

4. The Scrolls can be divided into two categories—biblical and non-biblical. Fragments of every book of the Hebrew canon (Old Testament) have been discovered except for the book of Esther.

5. There are now identified among the scrolls, 19 copies of the Book of Isaiah, 25 copies of Deuteronomy and 30 copies of the Psalms .

6. Prophecies by Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Daniel not found in the Bible are written in the Scrolls.

7. The Isaiah Scroll, found relatively intact, is 1000 years older than any previously known copy of Isaiah. In fact, the scrolls are the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found.

8. In the Scrolls are found never before seen psalms attributed to King David and Joshua.

9.There are nonbiblical writings along the order of commentaries on the OT, paraphrases that expand on the Law, rule books of the community, war conduct, thanksgiving psalms, hymnic compositions, benedictions, liturgical texts, and sapiential (wisdom) writings.

10. The Scrolls are for the most part, written in Hebrew, but there are many written in Aramaic. Aramaic was the common language of the Jews of Palestine for the last two centuries B.C. and of the first two centuries A.D. The discovery of the Scrolls has greatly enhanced our knowledge of these two languages. In addition, there are a few texts written in Greek.

11. The Scrolls appear to be the library of a Jewish sect. The library was hidden away in caves around the outbreak of the First Jewish Revolt (A.D. 66-70) as the Roman army advanced against the rebel Jews.

12. Near the caves are the ancient ruins of Qumran. They were excavated in the early 1950's and appear to be connected with the scrolls.

13. The Dead Sea Scrolls were most likely written by the Essenes during the period from about 200 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D. The Essenes are mentioned by Josephus and in a few other sources, but not in the New testament. The Essenes were a strict Torah observant, Messianic, apocalyptic, baptist, wilderness, new covenant Jewish sect. They were led by a priest they called the "Teacher of Righteousness," who was opposed and possibly killed by the establishment priesthood in Jerusalem.

14. The enemies of the Qumran community were called the "Sons of Darkness"; they called themselves the "Sons of Light," "the poor," and members of "the Way." They thought of themselves as "the holy ones," who lived in "the house of holiness," because "the Holy Spirit" dwelt with them.

15. The last words of Joseph, Judah, Levi, Naphtali, and Amram (the father of Moses) are written down in the Scrolls.

16. One of the most curious scrolls is the Copper Scroll. Discovered in Cave 3, this scroll records a list of 64 underground hiding places throughout the land of Israel. The deposits are to contain certain amounts of gold, silver, aromatics, and manuscripts. These are believed to be treasures from the Temple at Jerusalem, that were hidden away for safekeeping.

17. The Temple Scroll, found in Cave 11, is the longest scroll. Its present total length is 26.7 feet (8.148 meters). The overall length of the scroll must have been over 28 feet (8.75m).

18. The scrolls contain previously unknown stories about biblical figures such as Enoch, Abraham, and Noah. The story of Abraham includes an explanation why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac.

19. The scrolls are most commonly made of animal skins, but also papyrus and one of copper. They are written with a carbon-based ink, from right to left, using no punctuation except for an occasional paragraph indentation. In fact, in some cases, there are not even spaces between the words.

20. The Scrolls have revolutionized textual criticism of the Old Testament. Interestingly, now with manuscripts predating the medieval period, we find these texts in substantial agreement with the Masoretic text as well as widely variant forms.

21. Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls actually appeared for sale on June 1, 1954 in the Wall Street Journal. The advertisement read — "The Four Dead Sea Scrolls: Biblical manuscripts dating back to at least 200 BC are for sale. This would be an ideal gift to an educational or religious institution by an individual or group. Box F206."

22. Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament.

23. The major intact texts, from Caves 1 & 11, were published by the late fifties and are now housed in the Shrine of the Book museum in Jerusalem.

24. Since the late fifties, about 40% of the Scrolls, mostly fragments from Cave 4, remained unpublished and were unaccessible. It wasn't until 1991, 44 years after the discovery of the first Scroll, after the pressure for publication mounted, that general access was made available to photographs of the Scrolls. In November of 1991 the photos were published by the Biblical Archaeological Society in a nonofficial edition; a computer reconstruction, based on a concordance, was announced; the Huntington Library pledged to open their microfilm files of all the scroll photographs.

25. The Dead Sea Scrolls enhance our knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity. They represent a non-rabbinic form of Judaism and provide a wealth of comparative material for New Testament scholars, including many important parallels to the Jesus movement. They show Christianity to be rooted in Judaism and have been called the evolutionary link between the two.

The points I find most interesting are that there's entire books and psalms that do not appear in your Bible and there's an entire book (Esther) which is simply not found. Also even though the sect who wrote these scrolls existed in the time Christianity was supposedly founded, they never even make mention of it.

In fact only 35% of the DSS matches exactly with the standard Jewish OT. A further 5% matches with the Greek translations which are also part of the modern Christian translations. The remainder diverges significantly from your OT. How on earth you can think that establishes the textual integrity of your Bible is beyond me.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 8:21pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 11:09pm:

Codification of the text - happened after Mohammed's death.

Obscure sects - you are guessing. Anyway, it is completely normal that decades of oral tradition will produce variant texts. it is also well known how muslims deal dith dissent and apostasy and questioning and unorthodox interpretation and variant interpretation.

In any case, the evidence that the Koran is the work of an editorial committee is before us. It is undeniably confused, patchy, often jumbled and disjointed. It may sound poetic and majestic in Arabic, but as to its textual coherence, it is a mess.
Who gave the chapters their names? Who decided which verse goes into which chapter? WHo decided to arrange the chapters by length, of all things?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 11:19pm

Perhaps oral traditions which are maintained by a priestly class.

The Qur'an was completely committed to memory by all strata of society in all generations from the time of Muhammad (pbuh) until this very moment we are discussing this. Along with this the texts also augmented the preservation of the Qur'an.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:01am

Soren wrote on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 8:21pm:

Codification of the text - happened after Mohammed's death.

The only codification that ocurred was the ordering of the surahs (books/chapters). The surahs were not set in any chronological order prior.

However, the Quran was both fully memorised by scores of people, and fully written down in the time of Prophet Muhammed (May God's peace and blessings be upon him)

Soren wrote on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 8:21pm:

Anyway, it is completely normal that decades of oral tradition will produce variant texts.

Couldn't happen. The vast pool of Quran memorisers ensured that it could not be changed. How can you change the Quran when there are many other people who have completely memorised it and they are spread across different cities thousands of kilometres apart?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:08am

Yadda wrote on Feb 8^th, 2012 at 12:44pm:

Yadda, speaking of the truth, can you speak the truth of this Bible fabrication?

Proof That Jealous Rabbis Changed Bible

Bible Says Ishmael 14 Years Older Than Isaac

Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.
Genesis 16:16

Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born.
Genesis 21:5

100 - 86 = 14!

Bible claims that Teenage Ishmael (about 17 years old) Sent Away For Teasing Younger Brother:

The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast.
But Sarah saw Ishmael--the son of Abraham and her Egyptian servant Hagar--making fun of her son, Isaac.
and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."...But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you...
Gensis 21:8-12

Isaac was weaned so was 2 or 3 years-old! So Ishmael was 16 or 17!

Bible Says Ishmael sent away as a Baby!

Was Ishmael and Hagar sent to the desert before or after the birth of Isaac? If we were to accept the Biblical version, we would encounter a number of inconsistencies and contradictions. It is clear from the story in Gen. 21:14-19 that Ishmael was a little baby at that time. For example according to Gen. 16:16 Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. And according to Gen. 21:5 Abraham was one hundred years old when Isaac was born. It follows that Ishmael was already fourteen years old when his younger brother Isaac was born. According to Gen. 21:8-19 the incident took place after Isaac was weaned. Biblical scholars tell us the child was probably weaned at about the age of three. Thus, it follows that when Hagar and Ishmael were taken away Ishmael was a full-grown teenager, seventeen years old. However, the profile of Ishmael in Gen 21:14-19 is a small baby and not a full-grown teenager. Why?

Genesis 21:14-21

14 Early next morning Abraham took some food and a full water-skin and gave them to Hagar. He set the child on her shoulder and sent her away, and she wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 When the water in the skin was finished, she thrust the child under a bush, 16 then went and sat down some way off, about a bowshot distant. How can I watch the child die? she said, and sat there, weeping bitterly. 17 God heard the child crying, and the angel of God called from heaven to Hagar, What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid: God has heard the child crying where you laid him. 18 Go, lift the child and hold him in your arms, because I shall make of him a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well full of water; she went to it, filled the water-skin, and gave the child a drink. 20 God was with the child as he grew up. He lived in the wilderness of Paran and became an archer; 21 and his mother got him a wife from Egypt. (The Revised English Bible)

1st) First, the original Hebrew for Gen. 21:14 is " and put the bread and water on her shoulder AND the boy." Anyone fluent in Hebrew can confirm this! This reading is still rendered in the Revised English Bible; however, other Bible publishers possibly aware of the discrepancy decided to translate the verse slightly different; however, we can see their trick! How would a mother carry a seventeen-year-old teenager on her shoulder? Certainly he was probably strong enough to carry his mother. Ishmael must have been a baby!

2nd) Second, in Gen 21:15 we are told that Hagar put the child under one of the bushes. Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

3rd) Third, in Gen 21:16 we are told that Hagar sat away so she did not have to see the child die before her eyes. Is this the profile of a husky seventeen-year-old teenager who probably was capable of being worried about his mother dying before his eyes? Or is it obviously a profile of a small helpless baby? Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

4th) According to Gen 21:17-18, the angels told Hagar lift the child and hold him in your arms. Is a seventeen-year-old man the object of being lifted up and held in one's arms by a woman while CRYING? Or is it the reference of a small child. Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

5th) According to Gen 21:19 we are told that Hagar filled the bottle with water and gave the child a drink. One would expect a seventeen year old to bring water to his mother instead. Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

6th) According to Gen 21:14 Abraham puts the food and water on Hagar's shoulder. Why doesn't the strong husky seventeen-year old Ishmael offer to carry the food and water? Ishmael must have been a baby and not a teenager!

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 10:57am

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:00pm:

falah wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:47am:

Deep in your heart you know your religion is wrong and you know that God is not on your side.

If his religion is wrong would that be a false belief falah?

Acts 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

"....in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

If Peter is correct in what he says, that what is important with God, is that we try to do good [i.e. 'work righteousness'], then lets examine how Judaism and Christianity, AND, ISLAM define that phrase, 'work righteousness'.

#1, ISLAM

For the moslem, 'worketh righteousness' [i.e. doing 'good works'] means fighting 'unbelievers' to impose ISLAM/Sharia upon the 'unbelievers'.

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196

Again, and again, and again;
Allah declares that >> WARFARE << is 'good works'.

e.g.
"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask thee for no exemption from fighting...And Allah knoweth well those who do their duty."
Koran 9.44

Allah, despises those men, those moslems, who refuse to embrace WARFARE, in his 'cause'...

"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.
Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."
Koran 9.38, 39

and,
"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

+++
Whereas;
#2, JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY

For the Jew and Christian, we both of us, have a commission from God, to pursue truth [i.e. to respect and embrace truth], at any cost, EVEN TO THE COST OF OUR OWN LIVES.

Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.

Psalms 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

'leasing' = = deceit.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 2:19
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

What God is saying to man is this;

If you love life, and the pleasures of life, and 'war booty', ...if you love those things more than God's righteousness, then you condemn yourself.

And you will die [in the 'hereafter', in the next 'reality'].

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 2:09pm

Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.

Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?

If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 2:18pm

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 5:33pm

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 2:09pm:

On that basis, you have no reason to adhere to the Koran.

I just heard that the sun sets in a mud puddle, according to the Koran and was confirmed by Mohammed in hadith. If that's OK with you, Hajar carrying a 17 boy should pose no difficulty. At least that is a possibility.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:33pm

Soren wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 5:33pm:

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 2:09pm:

On that basis, you have no reason to adhere to the Koran.

I just heard that the sun sets in a mud puddle, according to the Koran and was confirmed by Mohammed in hadith.

I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up, how can a woman be expected to carry around her 17 year-old son?

If there was a atom's worth of honesty in you at all, you would admit that the whole story about Ishmael in Genesis was fabricated by jealous rabbis.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:47pm

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:33pm:

I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up,

You have explained nothing.

Read all translations by ticking boxes on left side of page by Pickthal,Yusef Ali,Shakir,Muhsin Khan,etc- The words that are in brackets do not appear in arabic text
http://quran.com/18/86

Do you think everyone is stupid falah?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by adamant on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:53pm

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

I offer two possible solutions.

1 She was a weight lifting dyke and he was a midget.

2 It did not happen because the torah bible and koran are all made up by humans to suit their own particular religious and political requirements.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 8:34pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:47pm:

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:33pm:

I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up,

Ever studied Arabic? I have in 3 different universities.

Note the preposition "في" in the sentence? Normally it is taken to mean "in". However sometimes it can mean "on/over.

An example is here in the Quran 20:71

[Pharaoh] said, "You believed him before I gave you permission. Indeed, he is your leader who has taught you magic. So I will surely cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of palm trees, and you will surely know which of us is more severe in [giving] punishment and more enduring."

Try the other translations. The preposition "في" is translated as "on" not "in".

Do you feel secure that He, Who is over the heaven (Allah), will not cause the earth to sink with you, then behold it shakes (as in an earthquake)?

In this verse (67:16), the preposition "في" should also read "over/above", but only Muhsin Khan has translated it correctly.

There are also hadeeth where the meaning of "في" is "over" not "in"

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 8:57pm

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:47pm:

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:33pm:

I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up,

Bullsh!t.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:30pm

Soren wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 8:57pm:

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:47pm:

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 6:33pm:

I have already explained that is not what the Quran says. It says "he reached a place where the sun set over a murky water"

So now that we have cleared that up,

Bullsh!t.

Study Arabic for a few years and get back to me

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:33pm

So Yadda ready to concede that your Genesis version of Abraham and Ishmael is a fabrication?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:43pm

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 8:57pm:

Bullsh!t.

Study Arabic for a few years and get back to me

How does this go in Arabic, Oh bearded teacher?

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 10:16pm

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

Study Arabic for a few years and get back to me

Done. I have studied Arabic for a few years and so I am baaaaack.

Yusuf Ali on Quran 14:4: We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

Which means every language, every culture, every nation has their own Islamic prophets!

Islamic messenger of Japan:

Prophet Mitsubishi married 9 yrs old Maria Osawa, fathered little suzuki and big brother honda. Too bad, Suzuki committed harakiri by suicide bombing and maria became a geisha.
You can look at Japanese Quran of Engine specification and handling manual. It is originally in Japanese and must be read in Kanji!

Oh yeah, what's Allah name in Japan? SUDHOKU!!!

Islamic Messenger of Jamaica:

Prophet Marley first name Bob loves to wear women' clothes while getting inspiration in the cave! He doesn't approve gay, yet wore an eyeliner, condemns pork and believe semen came from the back bone!
Allah's name in Jamaica is Al-Al-Al-Long... (A La La Long de long long long)

Islamic Messenger of Sweden.

Prophet ABBA, with 4 canonical hadiths from Anni-Frid "Frida" Lyngstad, Borrn Ulvaeus, Benny Andersson and Agnetha Faltskog.

The prophet led an army of dancing queens through Europe and the rest of the Disco world; Conquering each land, forcing them until they establish regular record playing 5 times a day, pay for the songs and CDs willingly while they are humbled.

Allah's name in Swedish is Beowulf!

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 12:12am

falah wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 2:09pm:

falah,

Clearly you have an agenda, and you want the facts to fit your agenda.

falah,

I have no 'proof' for you.

You should believe whatever you want to believe.

We all do.

Here is the information which you presented in post #42

Quote:

Was Ishmael and Hagar sent to the desert before or after the birth of Isaac? If we were to accept the Biblical version, we would encounter a number of inconsistencies and contradictions. It is clear from the story in Gen. 21:14-19 that Ishmael was a little baby at that time. For example according to Gen. 16:16 Abraham was 86 years old when Ishmael was born. And according to Gen. 21:5 Abraham was one hundred years old when Isaac was born. It follows that Ishmael was already fourteen years old when his younger brother Isaac was born. According to Gen. 21:8-19 the incident took place after Isaac was weaned. Biblical scholars tell us the child was probably weaned at about the age of three. Thus, it follows that when Hagar and Ishmael were taken away Ishmael was a full-grown teenager, seventeen years old. However, the profile of Ishmael in Gen 21:14-19 is a small baby and not a full-grown teenager. Why?

Genesis 21:14-21

14 Early next morning Abraham took some food and a full water-skin and gave them to Hagar. He set the child on her shoulder and sent her away, and she wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba. 15 When the water in the skin was finished, she thrust the child under a bush, 16 then went and sat down some way off, about a bowshot distant. How can I watch the child die? she said, and sat there, weeping bitterly. 17 God heard the child crying, and the angel of God called from heaven to Hagar, What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid: God has heard the child crying where you laid him. 18 Go, lift the child and hold him in your arms, because I shall make of him a great nation. 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well full of water; she went to it, filled the water-skin, and gave the child a drink. 20 God was with the child as he grew up. He lived in the wilderness of Paran and became an archer; 21 and his mother got him a wife from Egypt. (The Revised English Bible)

sourced from.....
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/nice201.htm

falah,

This is what i believe.....

Clearly Ishmael was a teenager, when he and Hagar were 'cast out' by Abraham.

Here [below] is another Bible translation, with different punctuation [punctuation different, to The Revised English Bible].

A punctuation which does not suggest that Hagar carried her son out of Abraham's camp.

i.e.
Abraham gave Hagar a water bottle, Abraham gave Hagar her child.

And then Hagar and Ishmael left Abraham's camp.

Quote:

21:14 Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread and a bottle of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder; and gave her the child, and sent her away. She departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
21:15 The water in the bottle was spent, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.
21:16 She went and sat down opposite him, a good way off, about a bow shot away. For she said, "Don’t let me see the death of the child." She sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept.
21:17 God heard the voice of the boy.
The angel of God called to Hagar out of the sky, and said to her, "What ails you, Hagar? Don’t be afraid. For God has heard the voice of the boy where he is.
21:18 Get up, lift up the boy, and hold him in your hand. For I will make him a great nation."
21:19 God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went, filled the bottle with water, and gave the boy drink.
21:20 God was with the boy, and he grew. He lived in the wilderness, and became, as he grew up, an archer.
21:21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran. His mother took a wife for him out of the land of Egypt.
World English Bible (WEB)

Later, 'The water in the bottle was spent', clearly both Hagar and Ishmael were physically distressed, having no water, and both of them expected to both die.

Hagar found a source of water, and she and the teenage Ishmael survived.

+++

Yadda, you haven't addressed the obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis about Ishmael.

I have now.

There is no, 'obviously fabricated contradictory story in Genesis'.
.......except in your mind.

Do you believe that Hajar carried her 17 year-old son on her shoulder?

No.

If the Bible contradicts itself, doesn't that mean it is made up and not the word of God?

You have not yet demonstrated that the Bible contradicts itself.

All you have proved [and demonstrated] is that moslems do not want to believe that the Bible is the authentic and inspired word of God.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 1:22am

Soren wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:43pm:

This hadeeth could be translated in a number of ways. The translation you posted renders the Arabic "fee 'ayn hamiyah" as "in a spring of warm water". Another way to translate it would be "over the source of Hamitic people (Africa)" - Ham being one of the sons of Noah who's descendants settled in Africa.

From Arabia, the sun certainly does pass over Africa when it sets.

The Arabic word "hamiyah" could also mean "circular" or "hovering" amongst other things.

Another meaning for the Arabic word " 'ayn" is "assignment".

So a more accurate translation might be "it (the sun) sets in a circular assignment". This would be pretty much like saying "the sun is in an orbit".

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 1:30am

Yadda wrote on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 12:12am:

falah,

This is what i believe.....

Clearly Ishmael was a teenager, when he and Hagar were 'cast out' by Abraham.

Here [below] is another Bible translation, with different punctuation [punctuation different, to The Revised English Bible].

A punctuation which does not suggest that Hagar carried her son out of Abraham's camp.

i.e.
Abraham gave Hagar a water bottle, Abraham gave Hagar her child.

And then Hagar and Ishmael left Abraham's camp.

Quote:

But the original hebrew does not have the punctuation that yu have chosen to use.

But even if we ignore the absurdity of Hagar putting a 17 year-old male on her shoulder, did she cast this 17 year-old under a bush?

Quote:

she cast the child under one of the shrubs

How strong do you believe this woman was?

Quote:

God was with the boy, and he grew. He lived in the wilderness, and became, as he grew up, an archer.

How much growing does a 17 year-old do anyway?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 1:49am

falah,

If you want to believe that the story of Hagar and her son Ishmael, reveals a contradiction in the OT Bible, i'm happy for you to believe that.

I don't believe that proposition, which you assert.

You said,

"But the original hebrew does not have the punctuation that yu have chosen to use."

That is half true. [.....surprise, surprise. /sarc off ]

And neither does the original Hebrew have any punctuation.

The original Hebrew language, because it had no punctuation or vowels, relies heavily upon context for the meaning of text.

Google;
hebrew has no punctuation

Google;
hebrew has no vowels

It is a totally legitimate process to translate from Hebrew, into English, and to then place the punctuation [in the English], so that the narrative makes most sense.

Common sense would tell us this.

We already know, from the earlier narrative [Gen. 16:16, Gen. 21:5], that Ishmael was now a teenager.

So it makes no sense to place the punctuation [in the English translation], so as to place Hagar, carrying her teenage son, Ishmael.

Again, common sense would tell us this.

But the punctuation used in the World English Bible (WEB) does give the narrative a common sense meaning.

i.e.
We know from the earlier narrative, that Hagar's son Ishmael, is by now a teenager.
Abraham gave Hagar bread and a bottle of water, 'putting it on her shoulder', then Abraham brought her child to her.
And then Hagar and Ishmael left Abraham's camp.

Quote:

And as i said earlier;
Later, 'The water in the bottle was spent', clearly both Hagar and Ishmael were physically distressed, having no water, and both of them expected to die.

Hagar found a source of water, and she and the teenage Ishmael survived.

You want to read an English translation of Genesis 21 [a translation from the Hebrew which has no vowels, and no punctuation], which places the puntuation, so that Hagar is carrying her teenage son ?

Quote:

"14 Early next morning Abraham took some food and a full water-skin and gave them to Hagar. He set the child on her shoulder and sent her away, and she wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba."

Of course you do.

And if you want to believe that, then i am happy for you to believe that version.

+++

What i believe, is that Ishmael was a teenager, when he and Hagar were 'cast out' by Abraham.
Abraham gave Hagar bread and a bottle of water, 'putting it on her shoulder', then Abraham brought her child to her.
And then Hagar and her teenage son, Ishmael, left Abraham's camp.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 11:07am

Yadda, in biblical times, 17 year-olds were not considered children but grown men.

Quote:

Biologically, a child (plural: children) is generally a human between the stages of birth and puberty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child

Think about it, a century ago in England a 17 year-old might have spent years in the workforce already.

Face it, the Genesis story is fabricated.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 12:56pm

falah wrote on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 1:22am:

Soren wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 9:43pm:

;D ;D ;D ;D

Sure!!! I love it that every single phrase in the Koran can mean at least three totally different things.

SOme translate 'beat your wife with a stick' as 'take her to a restaurant and wine and dine her, you henpecked deadbeat'. 'Hurrah for Allah and the booty' as 'would you mind getting the shopping out of the boot'. And so forth. Whatever suits.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 2:48pm

Translation is a very difficult task - especially when dealing with ancient texts.

Translators have varying levels of knowledge of 1) source language, 2) target language and 3) context of original text.

I can show you verses of the Bible that are translated in different ways depending on who translated them.

Does that mean that Bible translators are being deceptive?

Quote:

The Difficulty of Translation

Bible translators throughout the ages have often found it difficult to translate the scriptures literally into languages because ethinic and cultural differences often combine to produce entirely different meanings.

http://www.metanoiaministries.org/Difficulty.html

Quote:

A famous mistranslation of the Bible is the rendering of the Hebrew word קֶרֶן (keren), which has several meanings, as "horn" in a context where it actually means "beam of light". As a result, for centuries artists have depicted Moses the Lawgiver with horns growing out of his forehead; an example is Michelangelo's famous sculpture. Some Christians with anti-Semitic feelings have used such depictions to spread hatred of the Jews, claiming that they were devils with horns.

It is commonly assumed that any bilingual individual is able to produce satisfactory or even high-quality document translations simply because he is a fluent speaker of a second language. However, this is often not the case. Because of the very nature of the different skills that each possesses, bilinguals and translators are not equally prepared to perform document translations. The ability, skill and even the basic mental processes required for bilingualism are fundamentally different from those required for translation.

Bilingual individuals are able to take their own thoughts and ideas and express them orally in two different languages, their native language and a second language, sometimes well enough to pass for native speakers in their second language. However, some persons will have a native command of two languages but prove inept at translating even simple sentences.

Translators must be able to read, understand and retain somebody else’s ideas, then render them accurately, completely and without exclusion, in a way that conveys the original meaning effectively and without distortion in another language.
In other words, translators must be excellent readers in a source language, for example, in English as their second language, and excellent writers in a target language, for example, in Spanish as their native language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation

Even translation of modern texts is difficult, what of ancient texts, where the context is often not well understood?

Quote:

communication in human language is context-embedded and...It is certainly true that even purely human-generated translations are prone to error
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am

falah wrote on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 11:07am:

Yadda, in biblical times, 17 year-olds were not considered children but grown men.

Quote:

Biologically, a child (plural: children) is generally a human between the stages of birth and puberty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child

Think about it, a century ago in England a 17 year-old might have spent years in the workforce already.

Face it, the Genesis story is fabricated.

What!, the Genesis story is fabricated?

Because the narrative in the Jewish OT doesn't align with ISLAM's narrative concerning Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and the account in the Koran ?

Poor, sad, falah.

Face it, you would like to be able to prove that the Genesis story, and the whole OT, to be fabricated.

But you can't.

Hey falah,

In the Koran, >> Allah << declared that those scriptures which had 'come before', to Moses and Jesus, had actually been protected by Allah.

Quote:

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein......
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:......."
Koran 5.46-48

The inerrant Koran???
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0

Mohammed shows in the Hadith, that HE had access to an 'uncorrupted' OT bible, so where is it falah ???

Where is the moslem copy of 'uncorrupted' OT bible, which Mohammed venerated.

"A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee."
hadith/abudawud/ #038.4434

Quote:

A PROPOSITION OF LOGIC;
To believe the moslem assertion, made today, that the Jewish O.T. Bible, and the New Testament scriptures have been corrupted, by Jews, and Christians, you have to believe that not one uncorrupted copy of either text survived [i.e. within a single moslem jurisdiction].

How likely is that, when ISLAMIC texts themselves, clearly state that these scriptures ['the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)'], were protected by Allah, and venerated by Mohammed?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0

Face it falah, moslems are lairs.

You know it, and i know it.

Face it, the Genesis narrative in the Jewish OT, is authentic.

And it is the Koran which is the lie, the lie which has been foisted upon the [willing to believe, and] envious, children of Ishmael.

The children of Ishmael, burning with jealousy [that their 'cousins', the Jewish people were chosen by God], when they heard Mohammed's fabrication, decided that, yes, OBVIOUSLY, it was them, the children of Ishmael, that God really loved , and not those, spit, spit, Jewish people.

LOL

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

".....and lying wonders"

falah,

Who are the lying people, who hate truth ???

Who are the REAL kuffar falah ???

Hmmm ?

Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;
we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyyai

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 3:17pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am:

In the Koran, >> Allah << declared that those scriptures which had 'come before', to Moses and Jesus, had actually been protected by Allah.

Quote:

... To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety:......."
Koran 5.46-48

This verse is saying that the Quran confirms the original scripture that came from the mouth of Moses and Jesus, and is guarding the original meanings from the new corruptions that the rabbis and priests have made. The Quran is a criterion for knowing which parts of the Bible are true and which have been corrupted.

Blessed be He (God) Who sent down the criterion (of right and wrong, i.e. this Qur'an)
[al-Furqan, v.1]

Then woe to those (priests and rabbis) who write the Bible with their own hands and then say, "This is from God!," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for that they earn thereby!
[al-Baqarah, v.79]

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am:

Mohammed shows in the Hadith, that HE had access to an 'uncorrupted' OT bible, so where is it falah ???

Where is the moslem copy of 'uncorrupted' OT bible, which Mohammed venerated.

"A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.
They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee."
hadith/abudawud/ #038.4434

Yadda, are you aware that there millions of hadeeth?

Are you aware that scholars of Islam have a system for classifying the status of hadeeth?

The one you have produced is not considered by Islamic scholars to be authentic due to issues in its transmission.

This report is not considered by Islamic scholars to be authentic because one the reporters in its transmission, Hisham ibn Sa'd, has narratives which are considered disturbed and corrupted according to many famous hadith critics like Ibn Hanbal, Ibn Ma'een, Abu Hatem, al-Nisa'ee, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adii, al-Madini, al-Hakim, al-'Aqili, Ibn Habban and others.

This is the reason why Ibn Hazm notes:

As for the report in which the Prophet (peace be upon him) took the Torah and said: "I believe in thee", it is a fabricated false report that did not reach us with proper chain of transmission (Ibn Hazm, Al-Fisal fe al-Milal wa al-Ahwaa wa al-Nihal, Volume 1, p. 237)

It is also worthy to note that this particular hadith has been reported through multiple chains of transmission; however, no one has ever mentioned the incident of the Prophet (saws) praising the Torah except in the report of Hisham ibn Sa'd from Zaid ibn Aslam.

However, there are authentic hadeeth transmitted regarding this incident, and they clearly state the Torah used belonged to Jews of madinah. Prophet Muhammed could not read, so he asked the Jews to read their own Torah to him. The Jews lied about the stoning verses. A convert to Islam, a former rabbi named Abdullah ben Shalom, pointed out that the Jews were lying about the stoning verses.

The Jews were not bound by Islamic law, so Prophet Muhammed told them to bring their own book (Torah) for judgment.

Quote:

Narrated Al-Bara' ibn Azib: The people (Jews) passed by the Apostle of God (Muhammed, peace and blessing of God be upon him) with a Jew who was blackened with charcoal and who was being flogged...
Sunan Abu Dawood, 4433 (Authentic)

Quote:

Narrated by Ibn Umar: "The Jews came to the Apostle of God (peace_be_upon_him) and told him that a man and a woman among them had committed adultery. The Apostle of God asked them: "What do you find in the Torah about adultery?" They said: "We shame them and flog them." Abdullah ben Shalom (rabbi who converted to Islam) said: "You are lying! It (Torah) mentions stoning therein!"...They brought the Torah and spread it out, and one of them placed his hand over the verse of stoning, then he started to read what came before it and after it (covered part). Abdullah ben Shalom(former rabbi) said to him: "Lift up your hand!" So he lifted up his handand there was the verse of the stoning. They said: "He has spoken the truth, O Muhammed. In it (the Torah) is the verse of stoning!"...
Sunan Abu Dawood, 4430 (Authentic)

Quote:

Narrated Al-Bara' ibn Azib: "...He (Muhammed) then called on the learned man (rabbi) among them and asked him: I adjure you (put under oath) by God , Who revealed the Torah to Moses, do you find this prescribed punishment for a fornicator in your- Book (Torah)?[/highlight] He said: By God, no. If you had not adjured me about this, I should not have informed you. We find stoning to be prescribed punishment for a fornicator in our Book (Torah). But it (fornication) became frequent in our people of rank; so when we seized a person of rank, we left him alone, and when we seized a weak person, we inflicted the prescribed punishment on him. So we said: Come, let us agree on something which may be enforced equally on people of higher and lower rank. So we agreed to blacken the face of a criminal with charcoal, and flog him, and we abandoned stoning. The Apostle of God then said: "O God, I am the first to revive Thy command which they (Jews) have extinguished. So he commanded regarding him (the Jew) and he was stoned to death. God Most High then sent down: "O Apostle, let not those who race one another into unbelief, make thee grieve..." up to "They say: If you are given this, take it, but if not, beware!...." up to "And if any do fail to judge by what God hath sent down in revelation, they are Disbelievers," about Jews, up to "And if any do fail to judge by what God hath sent down in revelation, wrong-doers" about Jews: and revealed the verses up to "And if any do fail to judge by what God hath sent down in revealation, they are the rebellious (against God)."...
Sunan Abu Dawood, 4433 (Authentic)

Yadda, even if the hadeeth you provided had been considered authentic, Islamic scholars said that this would not be considered a validation of the current Torah but confirmation of the original, which had been long corrupted before the time of prophet muhammed:

The scholar Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani said...

Quote:

And so, some used this hadith as an indication to show that the Torah that the Jews presented, at that time, to the prophet was all sound and correct and not being altered. However, this argument is far from correctness because even saying: ((I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee.) cannot be used as this saying refers to the original Torah (which was revelaed to Moses) [Fathul Bari, Section of rulings of Ahlul dhimma]

Yadda, even Christian Bible scholars admit that the Bible has been corrupted! You an ignorant, go against what your own scholars teach.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:06pm

falah wrote on Feb 11^th, 2012 at 2:48pm:

[quote]A famous mistranslation of the Bible is the rendering of the Hebrew word קֶרֶן (keren), which has several meanings, as "horn" in a context where it actually means "beam of light". As a result, for centuries artists have depicted Moses the Lawgiver with horns growing out of his forehead; an example is Michelangelo's famous sculpture. Some Christians with anti-Semitic feelings have used such depictions to spread hatred of the Jews, claiming that they were devils with horns.

It is commonly assumed that any bilingual individual is able to produce satisfactory or even high-quality document translations simply because he is a fluent speaker of a second language. However, this is often not the case. Because of the very nature of the different skills that each possesses, bilinguals and translators are not equally prepared to perform document translations. The ability, skill and even the basic mental processes required for bilingualism are fundamentally different from those required for translation.

Bilingual individuals are able to take their own thoughts and ideas and express them orally in two different languages, their native language and a second language, sometimes well enough to pass for native speakers in their second language. However, some persons will have a native command of two languages but prove inept at translating even simple sentences.

Translators must be able to read, understand and retain somebody else’s ideas, then render them accurately, completely and without exclusion, in a way that conveys the original meaning effectively and without distortion in another language.
In other words, translators must be excellent readers in a source language, for example, in English as their second language, and excellent writers in a target language, for example, in Spanish as their native language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation

Even translation of modern texts is difficult, what of ancient texts, where the context is often not well understood?

Quote:

communication in human language is context-embedded and...It is certainly true that even purely human-generated translations are prone to error
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation

[/quote]

So the Koran doesn't have just one, indisputable meaning. It is open to interpretation and therefore different interpretations and therefore argument and interpretations of context, of time, of usage, of reviews of historical influences and review and revision of earlier interpretations.

Thank you. You'll have your Reformation yet.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:49pm

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:06pm:

So the Koran doesn't have just one, indisputable meaning. It is open to interpretation and therefore different interpretations and therefore argument and interpretations of context, of time, of usage, of reviews of historical influences and review and revision of earlier interpretations.

Thank you. You'll have your Reformation yet.

Much of the Quran is easily understood and there is no room for misunderstanding. In other places the Quran explains itself, or there are hadeeth explaining it. Whatever is left is best left to be explained by Islamic scholars - not ignorants like you who dont even know Arabic.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 10:13pm

falah wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:49pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:06pm:

Anyone who has read a page of the Koran knows what a monumental BS that is, falah.
The Koran is a notoriously disjointed and incomprehensible text. It is as obvious to the most cursory as to the most meticulous reader that it is a collection of disjointed snippets, organised by a committee in the most bizarre manner, by the length of the chapters. This means that nothing is in chronological order - ie the way thing may have happened - and so understanding is completely at the mercy of a bearded numpty telling you what to think. That is to say, you need someone to tell you what it means because understanding just by reading it is absolutely impossible.
You know this, I know this, Abu knows this. Anyone literate knows this.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 10:50pm

falah wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 9:49pm:

Much of the Quran is easily understood and there is no room for misunderstanding.

So the jews are gods chosen people then if you read this verse?

Quote:

O Children of Israel ! Remember my favour wherewith i favoured you and how i preferred you to all creatures

http://quran.com/2/47

Read all translations tick boxes on left side of page and watch falah spin this one...LMAO

Since when did muslims become known as the children of Israel falah?

Allah has done it again calling jews his favourite people
http://quran.com/2/122

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:15am

They indeed were favoured.... 'were' being the key word here. That favour was dependant on them fulfilling their duties, which they did not, and so the favour was taken from them. Quite simple actually, most simpletons would've picked up on that one.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:18am

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

I know nothing of the kind. And I don't think you know this either. As I don't believe you've ever read the Qur'an. You've just sifted through the cherry picked verses you find on anti-Islamic websites.

When you read the Qur'an properly, you will feel exactly as though God is talking directly to you. I advise you to spend some time, to sit down and actually read it with an open mind.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 8:59am

falah wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 3:17pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am:

falah said......
"....Hisham ibn Sa'd, has narratives which are considered disturbed and corrupted according to many famous hadith critics...............As for the report in which the Prophet (peace be upon him) took the Torah and said: "I believe in thee", it is a fabricated false report that did not reach us with proper chain of transmission."

Corrupted ???

Fabricated ???

Q.
Corrupted and fabricated by who falah ???

A.
Fabricated by Mohammed's 'companions'.

A.
Fabricated by good moslems.

falah said.....

Quote:

"Much of the Quran is easily understood and there is no room for misunderstanding. In other places the Quran explains itself, or there are hadeeth explaining it. Whatever is left is best left to be explained by Islamic scholars - not ignorants like you who dont even know Arabic."

And >> who << decides which hadith are authentic falah ?

So your argument is that;

You are telling us that much of the hadith is recognised as being unreliable, because much of it is a fabrication, a 'confection',......................by moslems, i.e. by the 'companions' of Mohammed.

But other sections of hadith are authentic, because those hadith have been authenticated,..................by moslems.

???

~~Bizarre logic.~~ .....Just normal moslem logic.

Q.
How did those moslems, those moslems who authenticated the 'authentic' hadith verses, know which verses were authentic ???

How could they >> know << which hadith verses were >> really << authentic ???

Weren't those moslems, merely men ?

Were those MEN inspired by Allah, to 'authenticate' only the authentic hadith verses ???? :P

Q.
Being good moslems wouldn't those moslems merely have 'authenticated' the hadith verses which portrayed Mohammed and ISLAM in a good light ???

And discarded or denounced all the 'other' hadith verses, which may have seemed contradictory, or false, or which portrayed Mohammed and ISLAM in less that an ideal light ???

+++

falah,

Q.
If i am a person who KNOWS, that among a particular group of people there is a predisposition to lie, and to tell falsehoods 'to achieve objectives', then how can i, or anyone know, when anyone among 'the lying people', are speaking truthfully ?

A.
We can never know.

The testimony of a self confessed deceiver must always be suspect.

That, is only common sense.

And all moslems, are self confessed deceivers of men.

Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

falah,

Don't moslems have a problem with the credibility of the integrity of their 'holy scripture', because it has been 'authenticated' by moslems [i.e. known to be liars and deceivers] ???

Q.
How can anyone [with one ounce of common sense] have confidence in 'holy scripture' which has been compiled and 'authenticated', .......by self confessed deceivers ???

A.
Only a moslem can.

+++

According to God [according to God's word], no moslem will be redeemed.

No moslem can be redeemed.

Why not ?

Because the good moslem has chosen to embrace taqqiya [deceit] in his dealings with other men.

And his deceit, MAKES A MOSLEM, ALL MOSLEMS, INFIDELS.

"kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuffar

A moslem cannot be a good moslem, unless he embraces all of the doctrines and obligatory practices of ISLAM.

You who embrace ISLAM, your own lies and deception, have become a witness against you, before God.

Yadda wrote on Feb 12^th, 2012 at 12:40am:

falah,

Who are the lying people, who hate truth ???

Who are the REAL kuffar falah ???

Hmmm ?

Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;
we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Psalms 4:2
O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.

leasing = = deceit

Psalms 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

Psalms 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

Psalms 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Psalms 62:4
They only consult to cast him down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.
5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.
6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.
7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.

Psalms 101:7
He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 5:17pm

Yadda, taqqyia is only practiced by Shi-ites. Orthodox mainstream Muslims do not believe in taqqiya. You know this but you keep bringing it up. Obviously it is you that is the deceiver!

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 6:40pm

falah, what they seem to believe, based on some garbage from jihadwatch it seems, is that Muslims supposedly commit taqiyyah because we're given license to hide our Islam at pain of death.

They extrapolate this out, and probably mix it with the Shi'a practice and then claim Muslims can lie about anything in order to deceive non-Muslims, and this is supposedly some part of Islam called taqiyyah. The best part (for them) about their claims is that you can't deny it either, because if you do, then you're probably just practicing taqiyyah anyway. Win-win situation, or so they think. Deluding themselves only it seems.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 8:01pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 6:40pm:

What is your opinion on the honesty of the shia Abu or falah, are they full of taqiyya or totally honest?

If we research Islamic websites we find the sunni/salafi are allowed to lie yet only under certain conditions what word should we use for this Abu or Falah?

Quote:

The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted ,but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying
1.You can lie to your wife
2.At times of war
3.In order to reconcile between people
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/2424/lie

Is Australia considered Dar al Harb ?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 10:43pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:15am:

So Allah favoured them because he hadn't yet realised, trusting deity that he is, that one day he would be bitterly disappointed with his chosen people. So when Allah realised his disappointment, he, like anyone else who does learn from his own mistakes, turned his favour away from the Jews.

Yeah, makes sense if your schtick is 'we are the next chosen people' (ie Muslims). But otherwise it doesn't work.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 5:47am

Sounds like you are describing the Christian doctrine there soren, not the Muslim one.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 6:27am

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 8:01pm:

What is your opinion on the honesty of the shia Abu or falah, are they full of taqiyya or totally honest?

They clearly have a teaching in which they can lie and twist any aspect of their beliefs in order to dupe non-Shi'a. This can be found in their books.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 8:01pm:

If we research Islamic websites we find the sunni/salafi are allowed to lie yet only under certain conditions what word should we use for this Abu or Falah?

This is nonsense. Show me any authentic Islamic book which says this. You've already been informed that a Muslim may tell "white lies" only in 3 specific cases. Anything beyond them, lying is a grave sin.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 8:01pm:

Is Australia considered Dar al Harb ?

None of the Islamic classifications of land have any meaning in the absence of a Caliphate. Dar ul-Harb without the contrast of Dar ul-Islam is completely meaningless. The entire world is currently Dar ul-Kufr. Not that it has any bearing on telling the truth anyway, Muslims are commanded to tell the truth wherever they may be.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 7:17pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 6:27am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 8:01pm:

What is your opinion on the honesty of the shia Abu or falah, are they full of taqiyya or totally honest?

If we research Islamic websites we find the sunni/salafi are allowed to lie yet only under certain conditions what word should we use for this Abu or Falah?

Is Australia considered Dar al Harb ?

Thanks for clarifying the case with the shia abu.

So in those 3 cases you are allowed to lie we should call them "white lies" is that the words you prefer we use?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 8:20pm

falah wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 5:17pm:

Yadda, taqqyia is only practiced by Shi-ites. Orthodox mainstream Muslims do not believe in taqqiya.

You know this but you keep bringing it up. Obviously it is you that is the deceiver!

falah,

That is not true.

In fact your statement is yet more taqiyya, from you.

Quote:

......Taqiyya is, therefore, not, as is often supposed, an exclusively Shi'i phenomenon. Of course, as a minority group interspersed among their Sunni enemies, the Shi'a have historically had more reason to dissemble. Conversely, Sunni Islam rapidly dominated vast empires from Spain to China. As a result, its followers were beholden to no one, had nothing to apologize for, and had no need to hide from the infidel nonbeliever (rare exceptions include Spain and Portugal during the Reconquista when Sunnis did dissimulate over their religious identity[6]). Ironically, however, Sunnis living in the West today find themselves in the place of the Shi'a: Now they are the minority surrounded by their traditional enemies—Christian infidels—even if the latter, as opposed to their Reconquista predecessors, rarely act on, let alone acknowledge, this historic enmity. In short, Sunnis are currently experiencing the general circumstances that made taqiyya integral to Shi'ism although without the physical threat that had so necessitated it.

How Taqiyya Alters Islams Rules of War
http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

falah,

These moslems were NOT Shiite moslems, they were Sunni....

n.b.
This is only one example....

GOOD MOSLEM SPEAKS TO NON-MOSLEM AUDIENCE - blatant deceit
"The Undercover Mosque: The return"
"A group of Christians visiting the mosque and the preacher and the Women's Circle treat [the Christians] kindly and talk about,
'We're all people of the book and we all come from the same history'."

BUT, THE SAME GOOD MOSLEM THEN SPEAKS TO A *MOSLEM* AUDIENCE...
"Just as soon as that group of visitors [the Christians] leaves, the language changes completely. 'CHRISTIANITY IS VILE', the preacher says....."

Source;
ABC Radio National Religion interview transcript - "The Undercover Mosque: The return"
".....Stephen Crittenden: .....your program highlights a certain kind of duplicity. When they're caught out, individuals don't miss a [beat], they just say they've been taken out of context....
David Henshaw: ......Regent's Park Mosque is officially committed to inter-faith dialogue....."
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2008/2360820.htm#transcript

Why were these Sunni moslems [above] lying, deceiving, the Christians ?

Q.
Why didn't these Sunni moslems tell the truth falah ?

A.
Taqiyya.

Google;
undercover mosque

Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;
we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:15am:

They [Jews] indeed were favoured.... 'were' being the key word here. That favour was dependant on them fulfilling their duties, which they did not, and so the favour was taken from them. Quite simple actually, most simpletons would've picked up on that one.

Abu,

Yours is a very superficial, and naive assessment/opinion of the ['current'] circumstance of the Jewish people.

It is also a mistaken opinion.

Abu,

Why haven't you moslems been able to destroy the Jewish people ???

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

See my post here.....

Quote:

......Back in the books of Moses, in 'the law' books, God warned the people of Israel, that they would break their covenant, and that he would punish the the people of Israel for their conduct.

Even, that he would scatter the people of Israel, among the 'heathen', among all the peoples of the world.

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

Deuteronomy 28:64
And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:

But God also promised that he would NEVER cast off the people of Israel.

Jeremiah 31:37
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:5
For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.

Falah: Jews are 'parasites'
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1327483631/106#106

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 8:59pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 6:27am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 8:01pm:

If we research Islamic websites we find the sunni/salafi are allowed to lie yet only under certain conditions what word should we use for this Abu or Falah?

This is nonsense. Show me any authentic Islamic book which says this.

You've already been informed that a Muslim may tell "white lies" only in 3 specific cases. Anything beyond them, lying is a grave sin.

Quote:

Sunnis vs. Shi'ites

An Outline Of The Differences Between The Sunnis and The Shi'ite in Matters of Faith And Doctrine
........
Taqiyyah (Calculated Deception)
Sunnis
It is defined as presenting an outer appearance that belies what one conceals inside, to protect oneself from harm. It is considered impermissible for a Muslim to deceive other Muslims, because of the Prophet's saying: Whoever deceives is not of us." Resorting to taqiyyah is permitted only in one situation: during war against the disbelievers who are the enemies of Islam. That is part of the etiquette of war. It is incumbent on the Muslim to be truthful and courageous in upholding the truth, and to be neither ostentatious, nor deceiving, nor treacherous. He should give sincere counsel, enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil.

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/shia_vs_sunni.htm#11

"It is incumbent on the Muslim to be truthful and courageous in upholding the truth, and to be neither ostentatious, nor deceiving, nor treacherous. He should give sincere counsel, enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil." <----- OMISSION; When in conversation with fellow Sunni moslems.

Sunni Taqiyya...

Google;
"an outer appearance that belies what one conceals inside"

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:01pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Why haven't you moslems been able to destroy the Jewish people ???

Because God sends Christian Hitlers to destroy them.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:28pm

falah wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:01pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Why haven't you moslems been able to destroy the Jewish people ???

Because God sends Christian Hitlers to destroy them.

Ah, the Jewish people are destroyed, and no longer exist then ?

In your dreams falah.

LOL

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:39pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:28pm:

falah wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:01pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Why haven't you moslems been able to destroy the Jewish people ???

Because God sends Christian Hitlers to destroy them.

Ah, the Jewish people are destroyed, and no longer exist then ?

In your dreams falah.

LOL

Yeah Christian Hitler only killed 6 million Jews. That is not many for you is it?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:50pm

falah wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:01pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Why haven't you moslems been able to destroy the Jewish people ???

Because God sends Christian Hitlers to destroy them.

falah,

Mohammed said [that Allah said], that moslems must kill all of the Jews.

Isn't that correct falah ?

Google;
Mohammed, The Last Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them

Don't you believe your prophet, falah ?

falah,

If you are truly a good moslem, shouldn't you go to Syria, to aid your Sunni 'brothers' ?

And if you wanted to, while you were there, you could throw yourself at the Syria / Israel border fence.

Yes?

As a gesture.

fala, Allah rebukes you....

"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.
Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."
Koran 9.38, 39

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 10:10pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 7:17pm:

So in those 3 cases you are allowed to lie we should call them "white lies" is that the words you prefer we use?

How about you answer for me?

1) How do you perceive deception in warfare? Given that ALL military forces throughout history have engaged in it, and the greatest war manuals have described it as central to the art of war?

2) Do you think it's wrong to bend the truth with your spouse relating to matters that increase love between you? If you have a spouse for instance, do you tell her that her cooking is bad or that she's fat? If not, do you consider this anything other than a white lie?

3) Likewise have you never bent the truth to reconcile two parties? To encourage them to make up?

Honestly, any person who considers these 3 things to be the same as lying is just an absolute imbecile.

Your arguments about Islam are based on nothing but pettiness and stupidity, you don't even deserve the time of day, because your intellect is obviously about the same level as a small child. Anyone who is arguing that war doesn't involve lying is truly detached from reality.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 10:27pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:50pm:

falah,

Mohammed said [that Allah said], that moslems must kill all of the Jews.

Do you do anything but lie Yadda? You accuse Muslims of lying but all your Christian fingers can do is type lies.

The prophet said no such thing.

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:50pm:

Google;
Mohammed, The Last Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them

Don't you believe your prophet, falah ?

This is a prophesy not a command. The Jews will fight the Muslims, and they will lose.

Israel will be responsible for its own demise:

Israel rejects Obama peace plan
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/israel-rejects-obama-peace-plan-palestinians-cagey-20110520-1evab.html

Israel rejects Arab peace initiative
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1547036/Israel-rejects-Arab-peace-initiative.html

[/quote]

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:02pm

falah wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 10:27pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:50pm:

falah,

Mohammed said [that Allah said], that moslems must kill all of the Jews.

Do you do anything but lie Yadda? You accuse Muslims of lying but all your Christian fingers can do is type lies.

The prophet said no such thing.

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:50pm:

Google;
Mohammed, The Last Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them

Don't you believe your prophet, falah ?

This is a prophesy not a command. The Jews will fight the Muslims, and they will lose.

falah,

It is strange.

It is strange how everyone 'misunderstands' ISLAM.

Moslems misunderstand ISLAM.

Non-moslems misunderstand ISLAM.

Yadda misunderstands ISLAM.
/sarc off

Hey falah,

I am happy for people who frequent OzPol, to read our posts, your posts, and my posts, and decide for themselves who 'understands' ISLAM better.

e.g.
Yadda said....
Google;
Mohammed, The Last Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them

falah responded.....
"This is a prophesy not a command."

Hey falah,

You are clearly, not a very good moslem.

And Allah is going to punish you.

You just don't 'get it' do you, falah ?

Allah tries to 'guide' you.

"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.
Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."
Koran 9.38, 39

But you just don't 'get it',
.......disobedience to Allah is verboten !!!!!

That Syria / Israel border fence is waiting for you, falah.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:21pm

falah wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 10:27pm:

Israel will be responsible for its own demise:

Israel rejects Obama peace plan
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/israel-rejects-obama-peace-plan-palestinians-cagey-20110520-1evab.html

Israel rejects Arab peace initiative
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1547036/Israel-rejects-Arab-peace-initiative.html

Yes, well, we all know what is going to happen, don't we falah ?

Heard it all before, Israel will be destroyed by ".....the ocean of Muslims in the Middle East."

Quote:

abu.....
".....the ocean of Muslims in the Middle East will wash the Zionist cancer away".

......
Iranian President Ahmadinejad agrees with you too, abu...

"The ocean of rage of the people of the region will surge and eradicate the Zionist regime."

YOUTUBE
Farewell Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-IwwfeLp4M

Jihad for Kids, Birds of Paradise
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1246764874/32#32

Isaiah 17:12
Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!
13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.
14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

Isaiah 59:19
So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Jeremiah 46:7
Who is this that cometh up as a flood, whose waters are moved as the rivers?
8 Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof.
9 Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Its amazing that none of you moslems have ever read the OT.

Ah yes, the Jewish OT is ~~verboten~~ 'discredited', so you just dismiss it, out of hand. :D

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:08am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 5:47am:

Sounds like you are describing the Christian doctrine there soren, not the Muslim one.

Au contraire. You described an Allah who dispenses favours, unawares that it is undeserved:

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:15am:

Jesus was a jew. Mohammed wasn't. Christianity is a Jewish religion for Greeks (ie gentiles).

Islam is an Arab misunderstanding of two non-Arab religions.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 10:20am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 10:10pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 7:17pm:

So in those 3 cases you are allowed to lie we should call them "white lies" is that the words you prefer we use?

1)Is it possible some muslims do not understand the texts and consider Australia to be dar al harb therefore they can tell lies to Australians?

The navy had a saying loose lips sink ships so that indicates it is better to say nothing when it comes to war.

Do you think these muslims are being honest with their reporting,the bodycount they give does not match the recorded deaths from the allies.
http://www.theunjustmedia.com

2)I think it is wrong to lie to your wife by doing that it indicates you have serious trust issues and without trust you have nothing.
The best relationships are based on honesty and you only have to lie if you are trying to hide something.
If her cooking is bad how will she know if you do not tell her is it better to put up with food you dont like or ask her to try something different.
Do you think your wife would be happy if you pretend to like her food?

If your wife says does this dress make me look fat i would probably reply "its that junk food that makes you fat ,not the dress" at least by being honest she can find a solution.
I think women should also be honest in a relationship and this means no faking orgasms which is an act of deception.
A real man would prefer to know he was ineffective than be deceived.

3) I would never lie to help 2 parties reconcile.
Do you like being lied to Abu?
If you are totally honest then both parties know where they stand which means it will be easier to find a solution.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 7:32pm

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:08am:

Au contraire. You described an Allah who dispenses favours, unawares that it is undeserved:

I'm really not following you on this one Soren. You seem to be implying God could not bestow favours upon people unless he could be absolutely 100% sure they'd never lose that favour? Got any other good strawmen up your sleeve? Cos that one's just a load of nonsense.

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:08am:

Jesus was a jew. Mohammed wasn't. Christianity is a Jewish religion for Greeks (ie gentiles).

Most importantly, they were both Muslims, submitters to the one true God.

Besides the difference between a Jew and an Arab ethnically is about as big as that between an Athenian and a Spartan... all Greeks right?

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:08am:

Islam is an Arab misunderstanding of two non-Arab religions.

Islam is not tied to any ethnicity, nor was the religion of any of the prophets. Judaism is a deviation/misunderstanding of that religion into an ethno-centric cult. Christianity is just a confused offshoot of that cult which also believes that ethnicity is superior. And you are an even further confused offshoot who doesn't believe in any of the religions but still believes the ethnicity is superior :-?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:32pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 7:32pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:08am:

Au contraire. You described an Allah who dispenses favours, unawares that it is undeserved:

So Allah didn't know that the jews would disappoint him? Seems to be very unaware, for a god.
What else doesn't he know?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:35pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 7:32pm:

Most importantly, they were both Muslims, submitters to the one true God.

That's a handy doctrine, isn't it.

Which accounts (other than the Koran) do you accept about Jesus?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:52pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 7:32pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:08am:

[quote author=504C51464D11230 link=1328405030/90#90 date=1329257320]Islam is an Arab misunderstanding of two non-Arab religions.

Judaism isn't tied to ethnicity either and christianity certainly isn't.
With Islam, Arabs are privileged because of the language of Islam. Greeks are not privileged in Christianity and hebrew speakers are not better jews than English speakers. Jewishness is not about where you were born or what language you speak (ie ethnicity) but about how you relate to the god of the jews and to other jews and people in general. Christianity is the same in this regard. The jews regard themselves as the light onto others. Christians are expressly calling you out of your nations.

Muslims want you to submit to them. And Islam is fundamentally Arabic. Even on this forum, you and falah will resort, when you have run out of arguments, to Arabic as the final arbiter and will dismiss criticism on the basis of the critic's lack of Arabic.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 9:57pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 10:20am:

2)I think it is wrong to lie to your wife by doing that it indicates you have serious trust issues and without trust you have nothing.

Based on this comment, I am fairly sure you are either not married, or your marriage is on the rocks.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 10:20am:

Do you think your wife would be happy if you pretend to like her food?

I am pretty sure a wife will be a lot unhappier if you tell her how crap her cooking really tastes. Imagine: "Do your like my cooking?" "Nah tastes like crap. I never knew food could taste this bad, but you've shown me something new today."

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 10:20am:

If your wife says does this dress make me look fat i would probably reply "its that junk food that makes you fat ,not the dress" at least by being honest she can find a solution.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 10:20am:

I think women should also be honest in a relationship and this means no faking orgasms which is an act of deception. A real man would prefer to know he was ineffective than be deceived.

I don't know why a woman would need to fake an orgasm, but sounds like you have put a lot of thought into the subject, and are an expert on fake orgasms.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 10:28pm

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:32pm:

So Allah didn't know that the jews would disappoint him? Seems to be very unaware, for a god.
What else doesn't he know?

The Creator and Sustainer of all existence of course knows everything.

Still I'm not following how this all maps out to not favouring a people if they'll fall from grace.

Do you also have some warped belief where God doesn't give water to people if he knows they'll spill it? Or else he must not have known they were going to spill it?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by abu_rashid on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 10:34pm

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:52pm:

Judaism isn't tied to ethnicity either and christianity certainly isn't.

Yes they are, the Jewish race is considered some kind of superior race. Jews themselves mostly believe this, and many Christian sects also have come to believe this.

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:52pm:

With Islam, Arabs are privileged because of the language of Islam.

Anyone can speak a language. Nothing ethno-centric about that.

“O people! Your God is one and your forefather (Adam) is one. An Arab is not better than a non-Arab and a non-Arab is not better than an Arab, and a red (i.e. white tinged with red) person is not better than a black person and a black person is not better than a red person, except in piety.”

Clearly you are a liar.

Soren wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:52pm:

Even on this forum, you and falah will resort, when you have run out of arguments, to Arabic as the final arbiter and will dismiss criticism on the basis of the critic's lack of Arabic.

I don't believe either of us have ever done any such thing.

However, you must recognise that if an Islamic text uses a specific word, and you try to re-define that word according to the English meaning, then obviously it ain't gonna fly.

That's not dismissing criticism, that's just common sense, something you appear to have a serious lack of.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by freediver on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:42am

Quote:

I don't need to contradict it, because it is the truth. Whoever rejects the monotheism of Islam will go to Hell.

That is basic islamic doctrine, why would I wish to contradict it?

Normally you just change the topic or blame the Jews. Can you clarify why you are able to give a straight answer on this aspect of Islamic doctrine but so few others?

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 6:40pm:

Can you offer an alternative explanation for your own self contradictions, like with Dhimmy evidence?

Quote:

They clearly have a teaching in which they can lie and twist any aspect of their beliefs in order to dupe non-Shi'a. This can be found in their books.

Where is this teaching?

Quote:

Not that it has any bearing on telling the truth anyway, Muslims are commanded to tell the truth wherever they may be.

So what is the truth about the status of Dhimmy evidence given in Islamic courts?

Quote:

Sure, deception is part of military strategy.

So tell us Abu, does your belief that the west is at war with Islam give you moral justification to lie?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1315699128

Quote:

However, you must recognise that if an Islamic text uses a specific word, and you try to re-define that word according to the English meaning, then obviously it ain't gonna fly.

Abu you constantly redefine English words to suit your argument.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 5:49pm

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:42am:

Sure, deception is part of military strategy.

So tell us Abu, does your belief that the west is at war with Islam give you moral justification to lie?

Lie about what? The justification for deception in war relates to deceptive military strategies - not lying about religion.

The deception is between two states not between individuals who are not involved in the war.

There is no permission in Islam to lie about Islam.

Even if Abu Rashid believed that he was at war with you, he still would not be permitted to lie about Islam.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 5:58pm

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 5:49pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:42am:

Sure, deception is part of military strategy.

So tell us Abu, does your belief that the west is at war with Islam give you moral justification to lie?

Are you currently living in the House of Islam or the House of War?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:03pm

Soren wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 5:58pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 5:49pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:42am:

Sure, deception is part of military strategy.

So tell us Abu, does your belief that the west is at war with Islam give you moral justification to lie?

Are you currently living in the House of Islam or the House of War?

What is the house of Islam? What is the house of war?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:14pm

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:03pm:

What is the house of Islam? What is the house of war?

Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-harb

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 7:15pm

Soren wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:14pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:03pm:

What is the house of Islam? What is the house of war?

Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-harb

Yes. But what are they? Do they exist today?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 7:38pm

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 7:15pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:14pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:03pm:

What is the house of Islam? What is the house of war?

Yes. But what are they? Do they exist today?

Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-harb

Do they exist today? This division is the very basis of jihad. Does jihad exist today?

There's your answer.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 18^th, 2012 at 12:42pm

Soren wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 7:38pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 7:15pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:14pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:03pm:

What is the house of Islam? What is the house of war?

Yes. But what are they? Do they exist today?

Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-harb

Do they exist today? This division is the very basis of jihad. Does jihad exist today?

There's your answer.

Ignorant answer actually.

Jihad is not necessarily dependent on the existance of any kind of state at all.

Jihad means struggle and has a wide meaning.

For example, Muslims might consider missionary work to be a form of jihad - especially if that missionary work would put their life in danger.

Missionary work can be done without the existance of a state.

Struggling against one's own desire is considered a form of jihad. This does not require the existance of a state.

Telling an oppressive ruler that he is wrong is considered jihad. This activity does not require the the existance of an ISlamic state.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 18^th, 2012 at 9:22pm

falah wrote on Feb 18^th, 2012 at 12:42pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 7:38pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 7:15pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:14pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:03pm:

What is the house of Islam? What is the house of war?

Yes. But what are they? Do they exist today?

Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-harb

Do they exist today? This division is the very basis of jihad. Does jihad exist today?

There's your answer.

Ignorant answer actually.

Jihad is not necessarily dependent on the existence of any kind of state at all.

Jihad means struggle and has a wide meaning.

For example, Muslims might consider missionary work to be a form of jihad - especially if that missionary work would put their life in danger.

Missionary work can be done without the existence of a state.

Struggling against one's own desire is considered a form of jihad. This does not require the existence of a state.

Telling an oppressive ruler that he is wrong is considered jihad. This activity does not require the the existence of an Islamic state.

Muslim war is also jihad.

Spreading Islam is jihad, whether in a war or by one beheading at a time.

Plotting to shoot up Hoslworthy is jihad. The Bali, Madrid, London and Glasgow bombings are jihad.

Your posting here is jihad. Abu is waging his personal jihad with every post.

The Cronulla attacks, the mass rapes, the annual Paris car-b-qs are jihad.

The Theo van Gogh murder was jihad, the embassy burnings after the Mohammed cartoons were jihad, the fatwah on Rushdie and the murder of his translators was jihad.

9/11 was jihad. The shoe bomber, the undie bomber, the countless suicide bombers are jihadis.
The airport screenings around the world are about jihad. Every time you check in at an airport you are reminded that the world is engaged in a jihad waged by Muslims.

You are waging permanent jihad against the world. That's what Dar al harb is. everybody knows it, you know it. It is about Islam waging war against the world.

You call it Islamic revival. You are right. Islam's presence is known by jihad. Not by innovation, learning, the spread of liberty - but by the black flag, symbolising the black heart of jihad.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 18^th, 2012 at 9:53pm

Soren wrote on Feb 18^th, 2012 at 9:22pm:

falah wrote on Feb 18^th, 2012 at 12:42pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 7:38pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 7:15pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:14pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 6:03pm:

What is the house of Islam? What is the house of war?

Yes. But what are they? Do they exist today?

Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-harb

Do they exist today? This division is the very basis of jihad. Does jihad exist today?

There's your answer.

Your statements are like saying:

"Homosexuality in the West is a Christian Crusade"...or "Jews killing Palestinian children is Judaism"...or "Christians kill Afghan children is Christianity"

Your posts are juvenile, and reflect some kind of psychopathic mindframe.

You need psychiatric care. You numerous postings under vaious usernames on Ozpolitics suggest a type of schizophrenia.

If you get some professional help, I am sure you will feel much better.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:18am

So which of the examples I gave are not motivated by jihad?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:46am

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

So which of the examples I gave are not motivated by jihad?

None of those are jihad. In fact, some of those you have described are, according to Islam, actually criminal activities.

You are a confused individual Soren, but Zionism will do that to you.

Probably the closest thing to jihad that you mentioned is writing on this forum, because making an idiot like you see any sense is a definite struggle.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 7:42pm

falah wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:46am:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

So which of the examples I gave are not motivated by jihad?

Nobody believes you. That's the price you pay for being a deceptive bugger. The examples I gave are all jihadi activities. You and Aboo and Lestat are jihadis in your small, wordy ways.

It's no good calling me a Zionist. It's meaningless. To you, anyone not buying the Muslim jihadi agit-prop is a Zionist. So a 'zionist' is anyone who is not duped by crazy Muslim propaganda. Which means your support base is the illiterate conspiracy crowd. Good luck to you.

If you look at what Muslims have been doing for the last 1300 years, you will see that they are completely without any achievement, whatsoever. Except hostile takeovers. Whatever Muslims have ever come up with, somebody has done it somewhere else better.

And that's because Islam is definitionally, elementally, un-negotiably against free inquiry. You guys a buggered, historically speaking, because you demand a closed mind as an opening gambit. That's all there is to your demise. You have zero chance because you have zero tolerance to free inquiry.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 9:10pm

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 7:42pm:

falah wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:46am:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:18am:

So which of the examples I gave are not motivated by jihad?

The term "Zionist" is not meaningless. It describes the people who support the occupation of Palestine by Jews, and the oppression of Palestinian people.

Zionism is similar to any sort of colonialism - except that it is one of the more evil and oppressive types like Apartheid in South Africa.

Soren, I know plenty of people who are not interested in Islam at all, but do believe that the Israeli occupation of Palestine is evil. Usually, the only people who support the Israelis are Jews, kooky Christian fanatics and far-right supremacists (if we exclude the politicians who have been bought off or influenced by the Zionist lobby).

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 7:42pm:

And that's because Islam is definitionally, elementally, un-negotiably against free inquiry. You guys a buggered, historically speaking, because you demand a closed mind as an opening gambit. That's all there is to your demise. You have zero chance because you have zero tolerance to free inquiry.

Kind of ironic that you were picking on someone else in another thread for spelling/grammar mistakes. ;D

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 9:46pm

I like jews.
I think Israel is a good idea. I think jews have a right to Israel. I also think Israel is a damn sight better than whatever the Arabs would have done with the place - or any place where the Arabs are in charge. Compared to Israel, the rest of the Middle east is a dump. And I speak from experience.

I might have no typing skills or a sticky keyboard, but still, I am with the jews when it comes to Israel.

I am neither a Jew, nor a Chistian, so you can stick your lousy, stupid demographic speculations up your arse.

Madness is the only thing going for you, you have contributed nothing else to the world.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by freediver on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:07pm

Quote:

Zionism is similar to any sort of colonialism - except that it is one of the more evil and oppressive types like Apartheid in South Africa.

Is it true that Israeli arabs and Muslims have more freedom than those in all of Israel's neighbouring states?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Yadda on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:45pm

falah wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 9:10pm:

The term "Zionist" is not meaningless. It describes the people who support the occupation of Palestine by Jews, and the oppression of Palestinian people.

Zionism is similar to any sort of colonialism

- except that it is one of the more evil and oppressive types like Apartheid in South Africa.

That is a very cheeky accusation, coming from an ISLAMIST, imo.

ISLAM itself as a philosophy, as 'a reason for being', has what could be termed, the ultimate in 'colonialist' ambitions!

And moslems are fully aware of THAT circumstance.

The forced colonisation of other lands, by ISLAM, is ISLAMIST doctrine.

According to Allah [as per ISLAM's foundation texts, the Koran, and the Hadith], the whole world belongs to moslems [as war booty]....

"Or have they gods that can guard them from Us? They have no power to aid themselves, nor can they be defended from Us.
...See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"
Koran 21:43-44

"And He made you [moslems] heirs to their [non-moslem] land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things."
Koran 33:27

Moslems 'doctrinally', have a directive from Allah, to invade teh whole world as colonists, overwhelming other peoples, using persuasion, or resorting to violence and terror [if persuasion is 'ineffective'].

What ISLAMISTS like Abu, and falah, are accusing Jews of, is merely typical, moslem 'projection'.

Projection ?

Accusing Jews of the act of 'colonialism', in seizing, taking back, their own ancient homeland.

In these accusations, what moslems do is called 'projection', i.e. it is the projection of our own guilt, onto others.

Wicked people do this.

Wicked people have some wicked intent, or commit some wicked act, and they project the guilt of their own actions, and intents onto others, and thereby try to 'project' themselves [to 3rd parties] as being the 'innocent', aggrieved, party.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Soren on Feb 26^th, 2012 at 8:06pm

falah wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 9:10pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 7:42pm:

[

[quote author=4A564B5C570B390 link=1328405030/111#111 date=1329644556]
And that's because Islam is definitionally, elementally, un-negotiably against free inquiry. You guys a buggered, historically speaking, because you demand a closed mind as an opening gambit. That's all there is to your demise. You have zero chance because you have zero tolerance to free inquiry.

Kind of ironic that you were picking on someone else in another thread for spelling/grammar mistakes. ;D

So if I can't spell 'are' that means you are not buggered???

Imagining that you aren't - now that's irony!

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Lestat on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 10:34am

freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 10:07pm:

Quote:

Zionism is similar to any sort of colonialism - except that it is one of the more evil and oppressive types like Apartheid in South Africa.

Is it true that Israeli arabs and Muslims have more freedom than those in all of Israel's neighbouring states?

No it isn't...unless of course you believe having your home bulldozed is a sign of 'freedom'.

Then again, being the dipsh(t you are...who knows what you believe.

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by Lestat on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 10:35am

Soren wrote on Feb 26^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

falah wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 9:10pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 7:42pm:

Kind of ironic that you were picking on someone else in another thread for spelling/grammar mistakes. ;D

So if I can't spell 'are' that means you are not buggered???

Imagining that you aren't - now that's irony!

No...the fact that you can't spell 'are', and given that you actually have the nerve to have a go at others for their spelling....means that it is you that is buggered.

Do you get it soreass?

Title: Re: Three Things About Islam
Post by falah on Feb 27^th, 2012 at 10:12pm

Soren wrote on Feb 26^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

falah wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 9:10pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 7:42pm:

[

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 7:42pm:

Kind of ironic that you were picking on someone else in another thread for spelling/grammar mistakes. ;D

So if I can't spell 'are' that means you are not buggered???

Imagining that you aren't - now that's irony!

Amusing is that you still don't even realise your mistake.

[quote]You guys a buggered

In English we use the word "are" not "a" when describing a people.

For example, someone can say "Soren, you are stupid!", rather than "Soren, you a stupid!"