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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Pew survey of Muslims' opinions http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1387754522 Message started by freediver on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:22am

Title: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:22am

This topic has come up a few times lately:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1387333750/36#36

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1386405172/161#161

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379233325/499#499

Thanks Soren for bringing this survey to our attention.

The survey shows some rather disturbing views among many of the world's Muslims:

The attitude of Malaysians was particularly interesting, as Brian had previously insisted they were normal people, on account of him visiting Malaysia and not getting his head chopped off by his servants. He did not have to actually ask those Muslims what they think, but is instead capable of absorbing their knowledge through some kind of osmotic process. The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy and stoning people to death for adultery.

Gandalf often uses Indonesia as an example of a representative country, because it is the biggest Muslim country by population (207 million people, or 87% of the population). This is largely an accident of history - if Muslims had their way, most of them would live in one large Muslim empire, and most of the borders on Muslim countries were drawn up by foreign non-Muslims. Although not as extreme as Malaysia, some 72% (149 million people) of Indonesian Muslims support Shariah law. Of these, 48% (72 million people) support stoning people to death for adultery. That is, there are 72 million little Hitlers right on your doorstep. Of the rest, it is doubtful that many consider the issue to be none of the state's business.

We have seen Muslims on this forum attempt to redefine words like freedom to make Islam appear more benign. This was also reflected in the survey results. Apparently Muslims see no contradiction in stating that a woman should have the right to choose if she wears a veil and also that she must obey her husband:

From the other thread:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:39pm:

I also have a problem with such high numbers supporting this.

You are usually very reluctant to discuss the problems you have with Muslims and Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Did I say it was spin? I even gave you the exact question that was used. I'm merely pointing out that attitudes can change markedly by changing a few words in the question. This is just basic surveys-101. Thus I don't call people barbaric, or "little Hitler's" if they offer ill-considered support for certain barbaric practices - whether it be stoning or drone strikes.

Are these 52% of Malaysian Muslims barbaric?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Have you worked out why some people would take offense to seeing people labelled "little Hitler's" for supporting certain capital punishments yet?

Not really. I think little Hitler is an appropriate description.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:49am

But FD, does the information that is portrayed in those graphs, really reflect the honest views and honest intentions of real moslems ? :P

i.e.
Every scrap of information [about any issue], is always open to 'interpretation'. [insistent denials will always be presented]

And, self delusion and/or [deceiving and deceitful] 'self interest', are not factors which we can easily take account of [or easily expose as the influencing factor] in the process of human 'reasoning'.

[human 'reasoning' = = justifying our actions]

I think it is sometimes referred to as, 'political machinations' ?

Dictionary;
machinate = = engage in plots and intrigues; scheme.

Graphs and surveys and evidence are fine.

But with ISLAM and moslems, we are fighting against lies and consummate liars.

How to defend ourselves ?

Always pursuing truth and exposing [revealing] what is true, is what ~~can~~ will help us out of a bad place.

Always love truth, and what is true.

+++

Psalms 7:15
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

Proverbs 28:10
Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:11am

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:22am:

The attitude of Malaysians was particularly interesting, as Brian had previously insisted they were normal people, on account of him visiting Malaysia and not getting his head chopped off by his servants. He did not have to actually ask those Muslims what they think, but is instead capable of absorbing their knowledge through some kind of osmotic process. The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy and stoning people to death for adultery.

I can vouch for Brian - I visit Malaysia at least a couple of times a year to see family. I don't have to ask them about their views on apostasy or adultery to know that they are lovely and accommodating people. Similarly, I don't need to guage the views of Americans on the acceptability of slaughtering children in Pakistan to know whether they are nice people or not.

What you refuse to contemplate is that in both cases, we are talking about an abstract principle, that is as far away from the reality of the individual's day-to-day life as can be: Malaysians don't, and never will, have the opportunity to partake in a stoning and witness the full horrors of what happens, and nor will an average American ever partake in a drone strike in which they must witness women and children getting killed, maimed and/or psychologically traumatised for the rest of their lives.

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:22am:

Gandalf often uses Indonesia as an example of a representative country, because it is the biggest Muslim country by population (207 million people, or 87% of the population). This is largely an accident of history - if Muslims had their way, most of them would live in one large Muslim empire, and most of the borders on Muslim countries were drawn up by foreign non-Muslims.

If muslims "had their way" they could have rallied behind the fundamentalists and established a brutal sharia state by now. Instead they continue to rally behind the democratic secularist parties and shun the islamists. Indonesia is soon to have both Presidential and parliamentary elections, and the only serious contenders will be pro-secular pro-democracy parties. That is what we call "muslims having their way".

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:26am

Quote:

I can vouch for Brian - I visit Malaysia at least a couple of times a year to see family.

And you have never had your head chopped off?

Quote:

I don't have to ask them about their views on apostasy or adultery to know that they are lovely and accommodating people.

How accomodating are they of apostasy and adultery?

Quote:

What you refuse to contemplate is that in both cases, we are talking about an abstract principle, that is as far away from the reality of the individual's day-to-day life as can be

Chopping someone's head off is an abstract principle?

Quote:

If muslims "had their way" they could have rallied behind the fundamentalists and established a brutal sharia state by now.

That's what they frequently do. Only problem for them is they don't all rally behind the same nutjobs.

Quote:

Instead they continue to rally behind the democratic secularist parties and shun the islamists.

Except of course for those who support the Islamists and go about slaughtering the rest.

Quote:

Indonesia is soon to have both Presidential and parliamentary elections, and the only serious contenders will be pro-secular pro-democracy parties. That is what we call "muslims having their way".

Blasphemy is still illegal in Indonesia. That is "muslims having their way".

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 11:30am

Have you ever been to Malaysia FD? Or any muslim majority country? They say Pauline Hanson had a trip around asia before entering parliament. I'm just wondering where all this irrational hate is coming from.

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:26am:

How accomodating are they of apostasy and adultery?

I have been to muslim gatherings in which known "adulterers" and apostates were invited (though technically, apostasy is legally impossible in Malaysia). People just don't give a sh*t FD - like Brian said, they really are just normal people. About the worst thing that happens is the host gets a little embarrassed when prayer time comes, and wondering whether he should pray in front of them or go to a private place. Or did you really think that Malays prowl around with a predatory look constantly searching out for adulterers or apostates?

Like I said, to them stoning is just an abstract principle that is as far away from their reality as you can get. Ask them an inconsequential question about a principle that they know they will never see in real life, they'll answer 'yes' - but actually put a stone in their hands and say "beat that adulterer to death", and they will undoubtedly reel in horror.

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:26am:

Chopping someone's head off is an abstract principle?

When it never has and never will happen in the society they live in - of course it is. Should I expect a new thread to be started about this? ::)

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:26am:

That's what they frequently do. Only problem for them is they don't all rally behind the same nutjobs.

Not in Indonesia. Please get a clue about Indonesian politics.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:03pm

Quote:

Oh look, Gandalf is ignoring what I actually post and replacing it with more fantasy.

Quote:

I have been to muslim gatherings in which known "adulterers" and apostates were invited (though technically, apostasy is legally impossible in Malaysia). People just don't give a sh*t FD

Is that why the majority of Malaysian Muslims want to chop apostates heads off? Would they get an invite to their own beheading do you think? Perhaps they would get an invite to their own reversion ceremony, with the beheading scheduled for shortly after if they don't accept the invite.

Quote:

like Brian said, they really are just normal people

Who want to chop people's heads off and stone them to death.

Quote:

Like I said, to them stoning is just an abstract principle that is as far away from their reality as you can get.

That is like saying that for Neo-nazis it is an abstract principle, because they weren't alive when the Jews were going into the gas chambers. It is the lamest possible cop-out, but hardly surprising from a Muslim.

Abu Hurairah narrates that the Prophet said: “One who keeps the faults of a Muslim secret in this world, Allah will keep his faults in the Hereafter

Quote:

Ask them an inconsequential question about a principle that they know they will never see in real life, they'll answer 'yes' - but actually put a stone in their hands and say "beat that adulterer to death", and they will undoubtedly reel in horror.

How do you know this? I hope you realise that it does not take an entire country to stone people to death. Even Abu, who supports stoning, said he would not personally get involved. But he would still support it. That way it would remain abstract, but people still get stoned to death. It's like meat eaters who buy their meat from a butcher so they don't have to slaughter the animal themselves. They still support the consumption of meat and the slaughter of animals. They even support the industry financially. Their unwillingness to get personally involved does not help any of the animals. If anything it makes it worse. Yet here you are applying the same standard to slaughtering people in one of the most brutal ways imaginable, and you expect us to be naive enough to think it is all OK if they would prefer to let someone else do the slaughtering.

If this is too confusing for you I'm sure I could come up with a suitable Nazi analogy. Did you know most Nazis were normal people who would have reeled in horror at a gas chamber? We really should cut Nazis more slack eh?

Quote:

When it never has and never will happen in the society they live in - of course it is. Should I expect a new thread to be started about this?

I'll think about it. It is a pretty stupid thing to say. It did take a new thread to make you see common sense on rape convictions. Not sure why, but it worked.

Quote:

Not in Indonesia. Please get a clue about Indonesian politics.

They already have their way on a number of issues. Did you know that Indonesia jails religious leaders for blasphemy?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:13pm

I really should just let your posts go uncommented, and let your stupidity speak for itself.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm

Like Gandalf I travel to Malaysia and Indonesia frequently and have been doing so for decades. I have also spent some time in arguably the most fundamentalist part of Indonesia, Aceh. I have not witnessed or heard of any stonings or beheadings, neither have I ever heard anyone express an opinion promoting such extremism. However, I have on occasion witnessed some rough village justice not resulting in death, this seems to be at the heart of Sharia law. the ability of the local community to use local customary law to decide the fate of the transgressors involved .Personally I thnk this system works very well for the villagers and can not see why this should be a concern for us in Australia or any other country. Their local (Sharia) law is their law. In a remote provinvce where Muslims and Christians live side by side I once even intervened when a (Muslim) local was about to be macheted to death for being an alleged peeping tom, (both parties were known to me) the one administering the justice was a Christian. I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:50pm

BTW FD, apparently about 2 million Indos a year are converting to Christianity, I don't think any of these people have had their heads chopped off

Quote:

KUALA LUMPUR, Aug 6 — A Christian-majority Indonesia could be a threat to a small Muslim nation like Malaysia, controversial academic Ridhuan Tee Abdullah has said as growing Christian proselytisation in the Southeast Asian giant fuels fears of Islam’s followers leaving the religion.

The Chinese-Muslim convert was weighing in on a recent furore in the world’s most populous Muslim nation that is experiencing a growing wave of converts to Christianity — as many as two million people a year — that had sparked a recent campaign to reverse the religious trend called “Save Maryam”.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/christian-indonesia-a-big-threat-to-malaysia-says-muslim-academic/

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:11pm

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

Just because you are unaware of things Ian doesn't mean they don't happen. ::)
I'm aware and I just listen and read to the media available here.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Hundreds-of-Muslim-extremists-attack-Christian-prayer-house-in-Aceh-25068.html
http://www.christiannewstoday.com/Christian_News_Report_9005091021.html
http://www.persecution.org/2013/01/31/tightened-sharia-in-aceh-worrisome-for-indonesias-christians/
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2457&dat=20050107&id=Aiw0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=QOEIAAAAIBAJ&pg=834,1629702
http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/indonesia-islamic-extremists-force-authorities-to-close-three-christian-churches-in-aceh-province/
http://americanintelligence.us/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=1&showentry=16892
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3768/indonesia-extremism

and the list goes on and on and on.... ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:24pm

Try to keep up Grendel, we aren't talking about ethnic violence which I am fully aware exists and have personally experienced. The subject is the attitudes of Muslims towards sharia law.
While you are at it you can detail your first hand knowledge of what occurs in these countries.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:24pm

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

I suspect because the responders are completely detached from their own personal reality when answering such questions. Asking "should adulterers be stoned" to a person who has never known the practice, and who is acutely aware that the practice will never be implemented in his society is obviously completely different to dragging an actual adulterer up to the same person and asking them to condemn them to death via stoning.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:27pm

Yes, I agree, also suspect these surveys offer "loaded" questions. I wouldn't mind seeing the format and context of the questions.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:30pm

let me also make the point that Indonesia already effectively allows customary or Sharia law to prevail over state law. But not just for Muslims, most ethnic groups are allowed to use customary or local law ahead of state law.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 3:52pm

Awaiting the expected responses to evidence such as the Pew survey results;

#1,
Yadda suggests an expected response;

Yadda wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:49am:

#2,
And ian obliges on cue;

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 6:22pm

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:24pm:

I'm sorry did you miss my previous you tube posts have you missed the ABC and SBS docos on Indonesia? I haven't.
As for "ethnic violence" I was commenting on the extremist violence by Muslims in Aceh... where ya been Ian... I live here and I haven't missed it. :D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 6:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:24pm:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

Well you may find they are more accurate than your personal views gandalf.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 8:59pm

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

Listen to ian there !

If you were basing your expectations of the 'political' views and the 'political' 'inclinations' of your average moslem, upon ian's knowledge, based upon his familiarity with moslem culture,
you would have to think that it was unheard of, for moslems to express extreme views.

But the truth is that many moslems, can be commonly seen, trying to intimidate 'others' [non-moslems] with threats of violence, which they [the moslems] then justify as simply their 'religious zeal'.

Simply moslem 'religious zeal' ?

What about all of the dead bodies !!

Quote:

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

Mild mannered Mohamed Morsi- Ex-President of Egypt
"The Koran is our constitution"
"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"
"Jihad is our path"
"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFgiIMAGE...

London, mainstream moslem street protests.
'Demonstrating' just how rational and 'peaceful' mainstream moslems really are.

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

+++

Moslem religious violence can be seen everywhere.

If you want to see the body count for this month, check out;

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:15pm

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

I find it naive in the extreme that you'd think your personal experience would trump the survey of hundreds in not thousands.
As if villigers would regale you with their views on sharia without you directly asking them.
I mean - how naive are you?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:46pm

Quote:

Have you ever asked a Muslim whether they support stoning people to death for adultery or the death penalty for apostasy?

Quote:

BTW FD, apparently about 2 million Indos a year are converting to Christianity, I don't think any of these people have had their heads chopped off

The survey was not counting the number of people who have had their heads chopped off, but the number of people who support the practice.

Quote:

Try to keep up Grendel, we aren't talking about ethnic violence which I am fully aware exists and have personally experienced. The subject is the attitudes of Muslims towards sharia law.

A subject you seem to have acquired knowledge of through some kind of osmotic process, just like Brian.

Quote:

I suspect because the responders are completely detached from their own personal reality when answering such questions.

Crap. Spineless apologetic crap.

Quote:

Yes, I agree, also suspect these surveys offer "loaded" questions. I wouldn't mind seeing the format and context of the questions.

So you don't actually know anything at all about the survey, you are just making poo up?

Quote:

Why do you feel the need to point this out?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:58pm

Grendel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 6:22pm:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:24pm:

I don't rely soley on SBS docos for my information although I have had cameo roles in a couple. Of course there is extremist violence in Aceh, they have been fighting what effectively amounts to a civil war for decades although I believe there has been some progress towards autonomy for the Acehnese lately. The Indonesian governement treats these "freedom fighters" as terrorists. Not sure what your point is in mentioning this though.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:00pm

Soren wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:15pm:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

what, do you think there is some grand conspiracy in not mentioning these matters or practising them only when I am around? are they dragging people out and chopping their heads off without me noticing even though I live amongst them? :P

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:01pm

Ian, have you ever asked a Muslim their opinion on these matters? You do realise that it was a survey of Muslims' opinions (not actions) don't you?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:05pm

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:46pm:

Have you ever asked a Muslim whether they support stoning people to death for adultery or the death penalty for apostasy?

strangley enough its never come up in conversation.

Quote:

The survey was not counting the number of people who have had their heads chopped off, but the number of people who support the practice.

Its only a practise if its actually in practise FD. Guess you flunked your logical thinking class at school eh?

Quote:

So you don't actually know anything at all about the survey, you are just making poo up?

Yes, I know nothing about the way this survey was conducted, Im sure I stated this.

Quote:

[quote=author=freediver link=1387754522/19#19 date=1387799167] Why do you feel the need to point this out?[/quote]
Because sharia law is already in practise in Indonesia and there is not 1 case that I am aware of where someone has been executed for apostasy or stoned to death for adulter despite 2 million converts to Christianity a year. are you aware of any cases?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:09pm

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:58pm:

Grendel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 6:22pm:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:24pm:

I don't soley rely on SBS docos either.
So lets make a deal Ian... you'll shut up unless you have something to tell me I don't already know.
As for your not getting the point... ::) ::) ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:12pm

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:01pm:

Ian, have you ever asked a Muslim their opinion on these matters? You do realise that it was a survey of Muslims' opinions (not actions) don't you?

In all honesty I have never thought to. I have never heard any thoughts about stoning to death or head chopping mentioned in general conversation, I am pretty sure that if this was such a serious issue for these people they would be discussing it. You are confusing religion with culture, Muslim Indonesians do not hold the same cultural practises as middle eastern Muslims.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:12pm

Quote:

strangley enough its never come up in conversation.

So how can you be so sure what their opinion is? Isn't it a bit naive to just assume this survey must be wrong? You introduced your own visits to Indonesia as contrary evidence, and claimed this gave you some special insight into what the Muslims there think, yet in all that time you never actually asked them what they think. It is not just naive, it is patronising and disrespectful. And stupid. I imagine somewhere in Indonesia there is a complete idiot saying the Aussie he met obviously supports stoning people to death for adultery because he never actually voiced an opinion against it.

Quote:

Yes, I know nothing about the way this survey was conducted, Im sure I stated this.

So why say the questions were loaded if you don't know?

Quote:

Because sharia law is already in practise and there is not 1 case that I am aware of where someone has been executed for apostasy or stoned to death for adultery. are you aware of any cases?

Shariah law is partly in practice Ian.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:13pm

Grendel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:09pm:

So lets make a deal Ian... you'll shut up unless you have something to tell me I don't already know.

Im sorry, I cant post 24/7.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:18pm

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:12pm:

No, what you are saying is stupid. suggesting that someone who has lived in the country, speaks their language and is conversant with their cultural practises does not have insight is a stupid statement. You are projecting because you have just been made to look ignorant, but you did that yourself by discussing a subject you have limited knowledge of.

Quote:

So why say the questions were loaded if you don't know?

Its common for those with an agenda to do this, you are naïve, m not.

Quote:

Shariah law is partly in practice Ian.

OK, show I case of head chopping for apostasy or stoning for adultery.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:31pm

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:05pm:

.....sharia law is already in practise in Indonesia and

there is not 1 case that I am aware of where someone has been executed

for apostasy or stoned to death for adulter

despite 2 million converts to Christianity a year.

are you aware of any cases?

Allah's enemies, have not been executed by moslems, in Indonesia ?

It doesn't happen, in Indonesia ?

Beheadings don't in Indonesia ?

A particularly gruesome incident occured, just a few years ago.

2005, Indonesia, beheadings of Christian school girls.

Google;
Indonesia Frees Muslim Terrorist Who Beheaded 3 Christian Girls

There are some particularly gruesome photos, of one of these beheaded girls in the morgue, easy to find - but not appropriate to post here.

Google;
indonesia Attacks on religious minorities remain largely unchallenged

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:43pm

Quote:

If you never asked them what their opinion is, you have no insight into what their opinion is. The Pew survey asked them what their opinion is. Pretty basic stuff I know, but it trumps you being their and talking to them about everything but their opinion on these matters. You are no better than Brian in claiming you have more insight than an organisation that actually asks people what they think.

Quote:

You are projecting because you have just been made to look ignorant, but you did that yourself by discussing a subject you have limited knowledge of.

I am not projecting. I am presenting you with the facts. Muslims were asked what their opinion is. This is what they said. It is obviously you who is projecting. This is about as transparent as it gets.

Quote:

Its common for those with an agenda to do this, you are naïve, m not.

What agenda does Pew have? Why did you suggest the questions were loaded if you have no clue at all? Projecting perhaps?

Quote:

OK, show I case of head chopping for apostasy or stoning for adultery.

English Ian. Do you speak it? This was an opinion survey. It reveals what people think, not what they do. How many times do I have to spell it out for you before it sinks in? Muslims are quite open about the concept of obeying the law of the land even when they think it should be different. They only go silent when asked how they ought to achieve that change.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:46pm

Yadda wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:31pm:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:05pm:

ian,

I am not suggesting that such executions and attacks are sanctioned [or even 'acknowledged' as happening] by the civil authorities who rule in Indonesia.

But these violent incidents do occur regularly.

i.e.
Violent and murderous 'religious' attacks, by moslems, upon religious minorities in Indonesia.

i.e.
Two forms of political rule can be observed to occur within Indonesia.

1/ Political control and political authority which is sanctioned by the civil authorities.

2/ Local control by 'political' religious terror, which while it is not sanctioned by the civil authorities - it does occur.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:47pm

Well I'm glad I started a new thread on this. Who'd have thought that understanding what an opinion poll is would be so difficult for some?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Herbert on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 5:19am

The apologists have become increasingly absurd in their desperate attempts to exonerate Muslims from Islamic accountability for their uncivilised opinions.

It's particularly ugly when we witness this in people who are otherwise intelligent and educated.

Endless spin to distract from the facts becomes habitual to their every response to the exposure of Islam and Muslims' medieval perspectives on morality and punishment.

********

You have to question the sanity of political parties who still support Muslim immigration ... and the sanity of non-Muslims in the electorate who continue to vote for them.

A full 30% of British Muslims surveyed were sympathetic to suicide bombings.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 7:21am

Freediver post moved from another thread:

[quote]here is Gandalf making excuses for his fellow Muslims, and insisting they couldn't possible mean what they actually say.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:24pm:

Ian followed it up with this:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:27pm:

Yes, I agree, also suspect these surveys offer "loaded" questions. I wouldn't mind seeing the format and context of the questions.

Abu Hurairah narrates that the Prophet said: “One who keeps the faults of a Muslim secret in this world, Allah will keep his faults in the Hereafter

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 7:54am

You don't think that belongs in the spineless apologetics thread?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 8:31am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 7:54am:

You don't think that belongs in the spineless apologetics thread?

You quoted from this thread - and there is no reason why it shouldn't stay in this thread. I moved the part you quoted from the other thread back.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am

It sounds like ian is a frequent visitor to Indonesia.

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:58pm:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:12pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:01pm:

Ian, have you ever asked a Muslim their opinion on these matters? You do realise that it was a survey of Muslims' opinions (not actions) don't you?

In all honesty I have never thought to. I have never heard any thoughts about stoning to death or head chopping mentioned in general conversation, I am pretty sure that if this was such a serious issue for these people they would be discussing it. You are confusing religion with culture, Muslim Indonesians do not hold the same cultural practises as middle eastern Muslims.

ian,

Are you saying that you suspect that a moslem in Indonesia, does not hold the same religious views as a moslem from the middle east ?

Hmmmm.

In contrast, i've come to believe that all moslems [i.e. every person who refers to himself as a 'moslem'] considered themselves to be one people, one ummah.

And all with common aims and devotions.

"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders."
Ishaq:231

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying
"Jesus is a dog,"
"Kill the Christians"

IMAGE SOURCE;
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/12/interfaith-outreach-in-indonesia-new-rash-of-church-closings-signs-hung-near-church-saying-jesus-is-.html

Indonesia is a large and expansive country.

I'm sure ian, didn't come across those moslems on his visits there.

Right ian ?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:30am

Ian would have discussed the weather with them and wondered why they were carrying a placard written in English that they obviously don't understand.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by wally1 on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

It sounds like ian is a frequent visitor to Indonesia.

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:58pm:

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:12pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:01pm:

Ian, have you ever asked a Muslim their opinion on these matters? You do realise that it was a survey of Muslims' opinions (not actions) don't you?

In all honesty I have never thought to. I have never heard any thoughts about stoning to death or head chopping mentioned in general conversation, I am pretty sure that if this was such a serious issue for these people they would be discussing it. You are confusing religion with culture, Muslim Indonesians do not hold the same cultural practises as middle eastern Muslims.

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying
"Jesus is a dog,"
"Kill the Christians"

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:39am

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying

"Jesus is a dog,"

"Kill the Christians"

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

Ah but wally, you are 'conveniently' forgetting about the duality [of 'being'] which ISLAM 'broadcasts', into this world.

e.g.
1/ There is the world, according to everyone else.

2/ And then, there is the world, according to moslems/ISLAM.

It is only the Christian Jesus, the Jesus of the New Testament, who is a dog.

For moslems, there is another Jesus, the Jesus of the Koran, the 'moslem Jesus'.

And it is the 'moslem Jesus', who is the one who is revered by moslems.

And [according to ISLAMIC doctrine], the 'moslem Jesus' will return at the end of the world, to slaughter all of the Christians, for not being moslems.

LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN;
According to ISLAMIC doctrine, the 'moslem Jesus' will return at the end of the world, to slaughter all of the Christians.

I am not kidding.

And THAT, is the 'Jesus', who is revered by ISLAM, and moslems.

The 'Jesus' who is the ISLAMIC Jihadist.

......who on his return, is going to slaughter all Christians, because they are not moslems.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by wally1 on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:05am

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying

"Jesus is a dog,"

"Kill the Christians"

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

well that's your view.

There is no muslim jesus or Christian jesus.They are the same person but both religions think differently of him.

In islam, jesus is a prophet.
In christinaity, you don't know who he is.One day he a prophet, one day he is the son, one day he is God.

There is only one jesus, just the beleifs about him vary between the religions.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Sparky on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:09am

All Christians know that Jesus is the son of god wally.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by wally1 on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:16am

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying

"Jesus is a dog,"

"Kill the Christians"

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

Again whats your point?

Yes jesus will come back with a sword and make war and fight.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:19am

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:43pm:

Quote:

Based on this you would have no insight into what australians think even though you live in this country. You have talked yourself into a blind alley on this one I am afraid.

[quote]
I am not projecting. I am presenting you with the facts. Muslims were asked what their opinion is. This is what they said. It is obviously you who is projecting. This is about as transparent as it gets.

.

What agenda does Pew have? Why did you suggest the questions were loaded if you have no clue at all? Projecting perhaps?

I don't know, but neither do you.

Quote:

Your credibility on what these cultures think is zero.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by wally1 on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 12:41pm

ian wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:19am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:43pm:

Quote:

You don't know any facts, all you know is the results of "surveys" you found on the internet. You know nothing about the people quizzed, how they were quizzed, the legitimacy of the survey or anything at all.

[quote]What agenda does Pew have? Why did you suggest the questions were loaded if you have no clue at all? Projecting perhaps?

I don't know, but neither do you.

Quote:

Your credibility on what these cultures think is zero.
[/quote]

They probably surveyed 100 people.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 1:30pm

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:05am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:39am:

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

GETTING BACK TO INDONESIA, ian;

This Christmas season in Indonesia;

Quote:

Interfaith outreach in Indonesia: New rash of church closings, signs hung near church saying

"Jesus is a dog,"

"Kill the Christians"

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

well that's your view.

There is no muslim jesus or Christian jesus.

They are the same person but both religions think differently of him.

In islam, jesus is a prophet.

In christinaity, you don't know who he is.

One day he a prophet, one day he is the son, one day he is God.

There is only one jesus, just the beleifs about him vary between the religions.

Exactly so - NOT!

Quote:

The Muslim Jesus.

The name Jesus

Also known as:
Isa, Eesa al-Maseeh, Hadrat Isa, Isa bin Maryam, or Nabi Isa.

Translates into:
Jesus, Jesus the Messiah, Honorable Jesus, Jesus son of May, or Prophet Jesus.

Important Note: For the remainder of this project in an effort to avoid confusion between Jesus of Christianity and Jesus of Islam, we will be using his Arabic name Isa when referring to the Islamic version of Jesus.

A Brief Description

Contrary to the Christian belief regarding Jesus, according to Islam, Isa was never crucified, was not the Son of God, was not divine, never experienced death, and was only a human prophet. The expected return of Isa is not remotely similar to what Christians expect with the return of Jesus. Instead, the character and actions of Isa are far more similar to the false prophet mentioned in Revelation.

A Brief Summary of Isa' Future Accomplishments

1). He will be subordinate to the Mahdi.
2). Directs all attention off of himself and onto the Mahdi.
3). A devout Muslim.
4). Institutes Islamic Sharia Law.
5). Acts as a Muslim evangelist.
6). Abolishes Christianity.
7). Kills the Dajjal as well as his Jewish followers.
8). Persecute Christians and Jews and forces them to convert or face death.
9). Remains on earth approximately four years.
10). Marries and eventually dies.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread423757/pg1

Above, the individual known as the Mahdi, is the ISLAMIC saviour.

n.b.
"...according to Islam,
Isa [Jesus] was never crucified,
was not the Son of God,
was not divine,
never experienced death,
and was only a human prophet."

ISLAMIC eschatology and Christian eschatology are essentially role reversals.

How surprising, NOT.

e.g.
The Jewish God [protector of spiritual Israel], is the ISLAMIC SATAN [protector of Jew's, and of Israel, and source of everything evil, and sponsor of all things un-ISLAMIC in this world].

The moslem Jesus is a subordinate of the ISLAMIC end time 'saviour', the Mahdi.

If you are interested, look it up.

Google;
comparing islam christianity dual eschatology

Google;
comparing islam christianity eschatology

'eschatology', is the term referring to 'the end time' theology of a particular religion.

Islam is the Exact Opposite of Christianity
http://www.christianeschatology.com/#islam_the_opposite

n.b.
ISLAM is the Exact Opposite of Christianity

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by wally1 on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 2:53pm

Sparky wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:09am:

All Christians know that Jesus is the son of god wally.

Its pretty strange that the son of God is only on the second level of paradise.

Prophet Abraham and moses are on higher levels in paradise.

So much for being the son of god, jesus is lower than Abraham and moses.

Shouldn't he be on the highest level of paradise?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Baronvonrort on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 6:02pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 5:19am:

Suicide is haram, perhaps you should call it a retarded fvckwit martyrdom operation which is halal.

Quote:

Definition of Martyrdom operations,and their effect on the enemy.

Martyrdom or self sacrifice operations are those performed by one or more people,against enemies far outstripping them in numbers and equipment,with prior knowledge that the operations will almost inevitably lead to death.
www.religioscope.com/pdf/martyrdom.pdf

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 8:47am

Quote:

Based on this you would have no insight into what australians think even though you live in this country. You have talked yourself into a blind alley on this one I am afraid.

It's all right there for you to see if you are interested.

Quote:

I don't know, but neither do you.

Again, they are quite open about what they do.

Quote:

Your credibility on what these cultures think is zero.

That is why I go by surveys of what the people actually think, rather than your method of being too afraid to ask and guessing instead.

Wally:

Quote:

They probably surveyed 100 people.

Like I said to Ian, it is all there for you to see if you are interested. There is no need to make up lies.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Pete Waldo on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 1:34am

Yadda wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:49am:

Graphs and surveys and evidence are fine.
But with ISLAM and moslems, we are fighting against lies and consummate liars.

I believe many would lie and claim they weren't into death for apostasy and blasphemy, through embarrassment at the time of the interview, or perhaps from not yet being given over entirely to a reprobate mind. Even here in the U.S.:

From a poll conducted by Wenzel Strategies on Oct. 22-26, 2012 regarding U.S. Muslims in the "land of the free": “Almost half of those Muslims surveyed – an astonishing 46 percent – said they believe those Americans who offer criticism or parodies of Islam should face criminal charges,” said pollster Fritz Wenzel in an analysis of the survey’s results."

“Even more shocking: One in eight respondents said they think those Americans who criticize or parody Islam should face the death penalty, while another nine percent said they were unsure on the question”. And that's in America! Of course in Pakistan those guilty of so-called "blasphemy" are subject to the death penalty by law. They are pushing the U.N. to globalize penalties for blasphemy against Muhammad. This even though Muhammad and every one of his followers is guilty of blasphemy against Jesus Christ and the God of the Jews and Christians.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

The reason is that the father of lies cannot defend his lies, so he must resort to censorship through murder, of those who point out his lies and the reprobate nature of his "messengers".

While Christians understand that the truth can readily defend itself, and thus pity and pray for those so lost as to parody, make fun of and criticize Jesus - as is done all over the world - recognizing it to be a matter between the blasphemer and Jesus Christ.

Like these Muslims at NYU that mocked the last supper:
creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2013/12/25/nyu-muslims-mock-last-supper-for-christmas-season/

"The imam of the same Islamic Center at NYU issued veiled threats of jihad if the university displayed the Danish Mohammad Cartoons. NYU bowed down. Islamic thugs and hypocrites abound."
creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/nypds-muslim-chaplain-seeks-new-policies-for-muslim-cops/

Title: Majority Europe's Muslims Favor Sharia Over Democr
Post by Pete Waldo on Dec 28^th, 2013 at 3:28am

clarionproject.org/analysis/majority-europes-muslims-favor-sharia-over-democracy

"Majority of Europe's Muslims Favor Sharia Over Democracy
Multiculturalists argue that Muslim citizens will eventually adopt the West's democratic mindset. These findings make that doubtful."

"The majority of Muslims in Europe believe Islamic Sharia law should take precedence over the secular constitutions and laws of their European host countries, according to a new study, which warns that Islamic fundamentalism is widespread and rising sharply in Western Europe.

The "Six Country Immigrant Integration Comparative Survey"—a five-year study of Moroccan and Turkish immigrants in Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Holland and Sweden—was published on December 11 by theWZB Berlin Social Science Center, one of the largest social science research institutes in Europe.

According to the study (German and English), which was funded by the German government, two thirds (65%) of the Muslims interviewed say Islamic Sharia law is more important to them than the laws of the country in which they live."

Much more:
clarionproject.org/analysis/majority-europes-muslims-favor-sharia-over-democracy

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:59pm

Obviously this would never come to pass, because Malaysian Muslims do not think what they say they think, hey Gandalf?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Malaysia

In the 1990s, the PAS-led state governments passed Islamic hudud laws in Terengganu, but was struck down by the secular federal government.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Stratos on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:14pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:59pm:

In the 1990s

And like that you've lost me

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:28pm

The Pew survey was conducted in 2013. The majority of Malaysian Muslims still support stoning adulterers to death and executing apostates. The point of the article is that contrary to Gandalf's little fairy tale, this is not some distant abstract possibility to the extent that what Muslims really think is different to what they say they think. Muslims would not, as Gandalf insists, suddenly change their mind if the possibility became real. It is not, as Gandalf suggests, a non-issue that people don't even talk about. It is not, as Gandalf suggests, failing only because Muslims lack the will to go through with it. Rather, it is a real political issue that has almost come to pass in the past and would have if the Muslims in this state had got their way.

These Muslims actually want to stone adulterers to death. They actually want to execute apostates. I know this might be a shock to you, but Muslims actually think what they say they think.

See Gandalf attempt to argue further that it is not the non-Muslim ethnic Chinese and Indians (who hold the democratic balance of power on the issue in the rest of the country) who are getting in the way of these laws, but somehow the Muslims who say they support them but don't really support them:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388619982

Gandalf even tried to argue that the Indians and Chinese would be happy for Muslims to execute apostates and stone adulterers to death, because of a survey he found in which stoning adulterers and executing apostates was not even mentioned. He seems to think that the Indians and Chinese might see it as a Muslim's right to execute apostates.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388997344

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Stratos on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 9:43pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:59pm:

but was struck down by the secular federal government.

Secular in name perhaps. The government has always been pro-Muslim

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 10:08pm

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 10:09am:

Muslims believe in Jesus.hard to believe they would call him a dog.

Tragically, nothing could be more exactly and specifically further from the truth, Wally. You can wish that you "believe in Jesus" just as you can wish you believe the tooth fairy were true, but simply wishing wouldn't make that vain wish magically become truth. To believe in Jesus isn't just to believe He existed, like any reasonable atheist would, but to "believe in Jesus" one must believe in the whole purpose for which He was made manifest to the world.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

You can parrot Islam's famous Greek sophist styled dissimulating entertainers and lying antichrists like Ahmed Deedat, until the cows come home, but that won't mean "Muslims believe in Jesus" either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLnEZ4nUhoU

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS you've only been deceived by Satan into believing that "Muslims believe in Jesus", even while you must DISbelieve the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, as an article of your faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

You've been deceived into believing "Muslims believe in Jesus" even as you DENY and even blaspheme the Son of God.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus_the_son_of_god.htm

Thus Muhammad and his followers are exactly, specifically and undeniably ANTICHRIST as another article of your faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.

1John 2:22 .....He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:.....
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

That's why Muhammad was inspired by Satan to command his followers to conquer and subjugate the whole of mankind, to DISbelieving the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, and DENYING the Son of God.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

Thus you must reject the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, as revealed through ALL of His prophets and witnesses, whose people have followed Him through two covenants over 3500 years - to follow the 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate false prophet Muhammad alone, through his STAND-ALONE heavily abrogated 23-year scripture-contrary record, of a counter-YHWH anti-religion with a pre-Muhammad history-devoid, archaeology-absent, reality-rejecting, geographically-impossible so-called "tradition", that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history, yet was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD.
http://www.historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm

Sorry, my friend, but that's the absolute and unvarnished truth of the matter.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 10:29pm

freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2013 at 8:47am:

Quote:

Based on this you would have no insight into what australians think even though you live in this country. You have talked yourself into a blind alley on this one I am afraid.

I see you are still struggling with the concept Ian. It works like this: if you want to know what someone's opinion is, ask them, don't tell them. Does that make sense?

Muslim: I support the death penalty for apostasy.

Ian: Shut up Muslim, if I want to know what you think, I'll tell you. Now as I was saying, Muslims think that...

[quote]You don't know any facts, all you know is the results of "surveys" you found on the internet. You know nothing about the people quizzed, how they were quizzed, the legitimacy of the survey or anything at all.

It's all right there for you to see if you are interested.

Quote:

I don't know, but neither do you.

Again, they are quite open about what they do.

Quote:

Your credibility on what these cultures think is zero.

That is why I go by surveys of what the people actually think, rather than your method of being too afraid to ask and guessing instead.

Wally:

Quote:

They probably surveyed 100 people.

Like I said to Ian, it is all there for you to see if you are interested. There is no need to make up lies.[/quote]
Not only are you fabricating what I allegedly said you are attributing comments made by other posters to me. In other words your argument is incoherent. You continually lie about what I posted, very sad.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 10:30pm

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 8:59pm:

Put your dunce cap on and go and sit in the corner. From your link

Quote:

Sharia legal system[edit]

Parallel to the civil courts, there are Sharia courts which conduct legal matters related to Muslim family sphere

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 10:47pm

Ian, you are confused, on both counts.

Quote:

Not only are you fabricating what I allegedly said you are attributing comments made by other posters to me. In other words your argument is incoherent. You continually lie about what I posted, very sad.

I only attributed one quote directly to you. I have checked, and it was made by you.

Quote:

Put your dunce cap on and go and sit in the corner. From your link

Ian, Hudud laws are the group that involve cutting off limbs, heads etc. Malaysia has shariah law for family court. This is not the hudud laws, although the majority of Muslims in Malaysia want the hudud laws also.

BTW Ian, do you still believe that all those Muslims were wrong about their own opinion, and you know what they really think, even though you never actually asked them?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 14^th, 2014 at 11:19pm

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Sparky wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 11:09am:

All Christians know that Jesus is the son of god wally.

Its pretty strange that the son of God is only on the second level of paradise.

THE false prophet Muhammad's filthy Satan-inspired blasphemy against the Messiah was even worse than you indicate:

Bukhari:V4B55N607 "Allah’s Apostle said, 'On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw Moses who was a thin person, looking like one of the men of the tribe of Shanua; and I saw Jesus with a red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom.

Just as prophesied of THE false prophet Muhammad and his Islamic kingdom "beast" against the one great God of the Scriptures Yahweh:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Just as prophesied, and as perfectly manifest in your post. Indeed Islam IS blasphemy.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm#islamic_blasphemy_in_prophecy

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Prophet Abraham and moses are on higher levels in paradise.

So much for being the son of god, jesus is lower than Abraham and moses.

Yet the ONLY reason you believe that, is because you believe Muhammad's completely unwitnessed preposterous tale, in which he claimed that he rode on a flying donkey-mule one night, from Mecca, to Jerusalem, up the the "paradise" of his overactive imagination, and back to Mecca by morning.
http://www.brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

He even lied about praying in the temple of the prophets, that the historical record informs us had been torn down torn down over 500 years before Muhammad told his ridiculous and transparent lie, about tying his flying donkey-mule up to the "ring" the prophets had used and going into the temple and praying in it.

Let alone there may even be indications that the reason he created the preposterous story of his magic flying donkey-mule in the first place, was an effort to cover an adulterous affair he had been caught in.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AbulKasem51209p4.htm

Shortly after relating that silly fantasy - many of Muhammad's even illiterate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwellers, found the good sense to abandon Muhammad's anti-religion - so what's up with Muhammad's followers in this 21st century information age?
Shortly after the debacle of telling his tall tale, Muhammad left Mecca and skulked off to Medina.

wally1 wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Shouldn't he be on the highest level of paradise?

While you spew Muhammad's blasphemy against the Messiah - that is, THE anointed ONE - what do the scriptures of the ONE true God indicate His place is in the ONLY heaven?

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Yet there you are, prostrating yourself toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, while praying in the "vain repetitions as the heathen do", in the names of the Quraish pagan's deity "Allah" and his "mesenger" Muhammad. That is praying in the name of Muhammad's, Muhammad-serving, terrorist, alter-ego, "Allah".

And why do you pray five times a day in vain repetitions? Because you believe Muhammad's tall tale about riding on a flying donkey-mule to "paradise" where he claimed to have gotten the number.
However it is no coincidence that the historical record informs us that Sabian moon god worshipers prayed five times a day, practiced ablution, prostrated in prayer, wore long white robes, and also fasted by day during the same month of Ramadan that Muhammad adopted.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/origin_of_ramadan.htm

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 17^th, 2014 at 9:03pm

"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Maktba Dar-us-Salam's page 580
Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.
footnotes:
[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
[2] Of course, nobody can offer Salat (prayer) and observe Saum (fast) incessantly, and since the Muslim fighter is rewarded as if he was doing such good impossible deeds, no possible deed equals Jihad in reward.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites

Thus, just as other non-Aryans (and other groups like academics) were only a little further down Hitler's list than Jews, so too are western peacenick "hypocrite" Muslims like some in this forum, just a little further down the list for conquest and subjugation by true Muslims that GET Islam, than we non-Muslims.

A very comprehensive list of Muslim opinion polls is logged at this link:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

"Muslim Opinion Polls

A "Tiny Minority of Extremists"?

"Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is their destination."
Quran 9:73

Have you heard that Islam is a peaceful religion because most Muslims live peacefully and that only a "tiny minority of extremists" practice violence? That's like saying that White supremacy must be perfectly fine since only a tiny minority of racists ever hurt anyone. Neither does it explain why religious violence is largely endemic to Islam, despite the tremendous persecution of religious minorities in Muslim countries.

In truth, even a tiny minority of "1%" of Muslims worldwide translates to 15 million believers - which is hardly an insignificant number. However, the "minority" of Muslims who approve of terrorists, their goals, or their means of achieving them is much greater than this. In fact, it isn't even a true minority in some cases, depending on how goals and targets are defined.

The following polls convey what Muslims say are their attitudes toward terrorism, al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, the 9/11 attacks, violence in defense of Islam, Sharia, honor killings, and matters concerning assimilation in Western society. The results are all the more astonishing because most of the polls were conducted by organizations with an obvious interest in "discovering" agreeable statistics that downplay any cause for concern.

(These have been compiled over the years, so not all links remain active. We will continue adding to this)."
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

Gandalf, do you understand what the numbers in these polls indicate, regarding the future that you are consigning yourself and your heirs to, let alone the rest of humanity?
How can there be any question that the most evil and reprobate group of Muslims most committed to violence, would by the ultimate arbiters of Muhammad's anti-religion?

Gandalf, what is the difference between peacenick "hypocrites" in Islam, and that of non-Aryan Nazi sympathizers, that were vainly hoping against hope that Jews would be Hitler's only target, even though they could see with their own eyes that they weren't (when Hitler grabbed others like academics, musicians and dissidents against the genocide of Jews)?

I personally know a Polish violinist (Gentile) whose fingers were cut off and was put in a concentration camp.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

And Hitler didn't even hate Music, like Muhammad did, and his true followers in the Taliban and other groups today.
https://www.google.com/#q=muhammad+hated+music

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:22am

Looks like gandalf is still having trouble accepting the reality that was revealed by this survey:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

I assumed nothing. Clearly its not getting through is it?

So I was imagining these posts?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:11am:

What you refuse to contemplate is that in both cases, we are talking about an abstract principle, that is as far away from the reality of the individual's day-to-day life as can be: Malaysians don't, and never will, have the opportunity to partake in a stoning and witness the full horrors of what happens, and nor will an average American ever partake in a drone strike in which they must witness women and children getting killed, maimed and/or psychologically traumatised for the rest of their lives.

Quote:

Like I said, to them stoning is just an abstract principle that is as far away from their reality as you can get. Ask them an inconsequential question about a principle that they know they will never see in real life, they'll answer 'yes' - but actually put a stone in their hands and say "beat that adulterer to death", and they will undoubtedly reel in horror.

Quote:

When it never has and never will happen in the society they live in - of course it is. Should I expect a new thread to be started about this

Quote:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

PAS state legislators in Terrenganu and Kelantan passed the laws by stealth 20 years ago, knowing full well that the federal would never allow it to be implemented.

Two states? I did not know that. Can you explain how a party that openly supports these punishments, in a state where the majority of Muslims support the policy, had to "trick" people into getting these laws through?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

Until someone is actually executed for apostasy (which will be never)

So long as the non-Muslims continue to hold a democratic balance of power. Remember, this is not a disagreement over whether they will succeed, but whether they actually support what they say they support.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:42pm:

In reality, the majority of Muslims support it and will vote for it if given the chance. In reality, it is the non-Muslim balance of power that prevents this from happening, rather than your ludicrous suggestion that it is lack of willpower or intent on behalf of the majority of Muslims who support it.

Pure conjecture. That is the reality you need to acknowledge

Is it conjecture to claim that Muslims actually support what they say they support? A survey showing what they actually think is not good enough now? I have to prove that they really mean what they say, while you backpedal and refuse to hold an opinion on anything?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:06am

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:22am:

Is it conjecture to claim that Muslims actually support what they say they support?

::) now FD surely even your reading comprehension isn't that bad. Is it??

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:48am

So which bit do you think is conjecture?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:08am:

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:42pm:

Pure conjecture. That is the reality you need to acknowledge

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:55am

Gee I don't know FD - maybe the part I quoted:

"the majority of Muslims support it and will vote for it if given the chance. In reality, it is the non-Muslim balance of power that prevents this from happening

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:47pm

Is it conjecture that Muslims will vote for what they say they want, if given the chance? Am I missing something here?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 3:02pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:47pm:

Is it conjecture that Muslims will vote for what they say they want, if given the chance? Am I missing something here?

Clearly you are.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:11pm

So it is not conjecture for you to insist that they would reject what they claim to support, if given the opportunity, but it is conjecture to insist that they mean what they actually say, and I must somehow prove that they actually mean it?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:25pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:11pm:

So it is not conjecture for you to insist that they would reject what they claim to support

No, that would absolutely be conjecture. Thats why I never said any such thing.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:11pm:

but it is conjecture to insist that they mean what they actually say, and I must somehow prove that they actually mean it?

It is conjecture to say responses to a random and hypothetical survey would definitely accurately predict an actual vote on the issue. It is also conjecture to state dogmatically that the only reason Malaysia doesn't have execution for apostasy is due to the non-muslim balance of power.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:25pm

From the first page of this thread:

Quote:

Quote:

From the previous thread: - more of Gandalf "not insisting" that these Muslims would change their mind and reject what they claimed to support:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 8:55am:

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2013 at 7:52am:

here is Gandalf making excuses for his fellow Muslims

Its not about apologising or excusing, its about coming up with an explanation for why their stated beliefs about this punishment is at odds with their demonstrated behaviour. Why doesn't Malaysia (a democracy) have stoning in their penal code if most muslims love it so much? Why isn't it even so much as discussed? Why do Malays simply don't care about the issue until asked to make a 'yes' or 'no' response to a completely detached and hypothetical survey?

Quote:

If you knew anything about Malaysia you would know that there are separate islamic laws that apply only to Malays. The point is though, if muslims were that passionate about introducing stoning, there would be at the very least some serious public debate about it. There is none. And like most things of this nature, once a public debate starts, public support for it will undoubtedly wane.

Quote:

Of course it is less abstract - because it is being presented as an actual policy to be voted on. Are you seriously suggesting there would be no difference to a pollster asking an Australian tomorrow about their support for capital punishment, and asking Australians to vote in a referendum whether or not to bring it back after a year of public debate?

Quote:

People can act all principled on an issue they know only from stories, and know will never have any chance of becoming implemented in their society. But like all these things, if and when a serious debate actually arises, and the issue changes from abstract to "actual possibility", public opinion will change dramatically.

Quote:

No, I'm saying its very easy to be high and mighty about something they have never experienced and knowing for a fact it will never be implemented in their society. Put a stone in their hand, or ask them to condemn an actual adulterer, and it will doubtless be a completely different story.

Quote:

No, thats not what I'm talking about at all. "putting a stone in their hand" is just a figure of speech. Its about telling people that, with their support, this *CAN* actually happen

I also found this little gem - Gandalf attempting to use a state that has actually passed the execution for apostasy laws as evidence that it will never happen:

Quote:

By the way - there is only one islamist controlled state - Kelantan. But definitely no stoning or executing apostates going on there

And here is Gandalf pretending not to understand that the majority of Muslims who support hte laws make up less than 1/3 of the population, which in a democracy is all the explanation that is needed for why these laws are not passed. Gandalf felt the need to dream up some other excuse - hence all the BS about Muslims not thinking what they say they think.

Quote:

By the way, your throw-away line about democracy that you want to pass as an adequate "explanation" only makes sense for apostasy laws, not for stoning for adultery laws. So if you wouldn't mind getting off your high horse for once and come up with another lame-arsed "explanation" for why stoning isn't even close to being on the books, that would be appreciated.

And here is Gandalf in yet another thread pretending it was a trick question by the Pew society:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:24pm

And more of gandalf ignoring posts that point out that he is a hypocrite according to his brethren, and just what kind of a future he is necessarily consigning his heirs to:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1387754522/61#61

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:04am

Did you have to attend remedial English comprehension classes at school FD? Cause this is just really really sad.

As for those quotes of mine...

Quote:

Nothing even remotely close to "insisting" what Malays will think. This is me insisting that an "abstract principle" is a country mile away from partaking in an actual execution.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:25pm:

actually put a stone in their hands and say "beat that adulterer to death", and they will undoubtedly reel in horror.

Even you agreed with this. It is a no-brainer, and not what we were talking about.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:25pm:

Asking "should adulterers be stoned" to a person who has never known the practice, and who is acutely aware that the practice will never be implemented in his society is obviously completely different to dragging an actual adulterer up to the same person and asking them to condemn them to death via stoning.

Saying the two situations are "completely different" is not "insisting" that Malays will definitely think one way or another. Basic English FD.

Quote:

Its not about apologising or excusing, its about coming up with an explanation for why their stated beliefs about this punishment is at odds with their demonstrated behaviour.

Asking why demonstrated behaviour is at odds with their stated beliefs is not insisting that they don't believe what they say.

Quote:

The point is though, if muslims were that passionate about introducing stoning, there would be at the very least some serious public debate about it.

gee whiz FD, do you think its possible to support something but not be "that passionate" about it? Once again, this is not even close to insisting they don't believe what they say.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:25pm:

People can act all principled on an issue they know only from stories, and know will never have any chance of becoming implemented in their society.

Key word "can" - as in " it can happen", "its possible", "its a plausible scenario" - ie not "I insist that it definitely *WILL* happen". Used, if it really needs to be spelled out to you, to refute your "insistant" conjecture that there absolutely, definitely was only one possibility.

Quote:

Oh look, there I am again pointing out the obvious fact that the two situations are vastly different. Again, nothing about insisting don't believe what they say.

Quote:

No, thats not what I'm talking about at all. "putting a stone in their hand" is just a figure of speech. Its about telling people that, with their support, this *CAN* actually happen

Describing a situation. Who'd have thought that this is really "insisting" what people think?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:18am

Impressive backpedaling, but you seem to have left the key bits out Gandalf. Can you explain how these are not examples of you insisting that they would change their minds?

Quote:

public opinion will change dramatically

Quote:

or ask them to condemn an actual adulterer, and it will doubtless be a completely different story.

Why were you so desperate to find an "alternative" explanation for why Malaysia doesn't have these laws?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:34pm

Quote:

But like all these things, if and when a serious debate actually arises, and the issue changes from abstract to "actual possibility", public opinion will change dramatically.

Firstly, it hasn't escaped my attention that you have subtly moved the goalposts by changing the original claim that I "insist" that people don't really mean what they say they mean (ie asserting that they are lying), to to insisting that they would reject what they claim to support.

Presumably it has finally sunken through that there is a difference between lying about what you are saying, and having a genuine change of opinion.

As to your new claim that I "insist they would reject what they claim to support" - it sounds a lot less ridiculous than the original version, I grant you that, but it is no less false. If they genuinely change their mind between the time of the survey and the time of an actual referendum on the issue, then it is not rejecting what they claim to support is it? They just have two different positions at two different points in time.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:18am:

Why were you so desperate to find an "alternative" explanation for why Malaysia doesn't have these laws?

translation: why was I so "desperate" to question your arrogant dogmatism that a meaningless survey would definitely reflect a real-life vote on the issue, and that the reason (only reason? - not sure, we seem to chop and change on that too) that these laws haven't come into effect is because of a non-muslim veto - even though we don't have a damn clue on non-muslim attitudes towards letting Malays implement the laws for Malays.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:45pm

Quote:

I don't see it as a change. I just got sick of your deflections.

Quote:

As to your new claim that I "insist they would reject what they claim to support" - it sounds a lot less ridiculous than the original version, I grant you that, but it is no less false. If they genuinely change their mind between the time of the survey and the time of an actual referendum on the issue, then it is not rejecting what they claim to support is it? They just have two different positions at two different points in time.

Why would there be a referendum on this particular issue?

Why would they change their mind? I agree that if they changed their mind, that would be an example of them changing their mind. My issue was with you insisting that this is what would happen.

Quote:

meaningless survey

Why is it meaningless? Because the Muslims do not actually think what they say they think? Time to suck it up and be objective Gandalf. They were asked what they think. They said what they think. It is what they think.

Quote:

that these laws haven't come into effect is because of a non-muslim veto

Balance of power. Not veto. Or to put it more simply, Malaysia does not have this law because the Muslim majority that supports it make up less than 1/3 of the population, and Malaysia is a democracy. There is no need for all your fanciful alternative explanations.

Why were you so desperate to come up with alternative explanations, no matter how ludicrous?

Quote:

even though we don't have a damn clue on non-muslim attitudes towards letting Malays implement the laws for Malays

That's a nice way of spinning it. You almost make it sound plausible.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 2:11pm

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:45pm:

Why would they change their mind? I agree that if they changed their mind, that would be an example of them changing their mind. My issue was with you insisting that this is what would happen.

lol, no it wasn't. Your issue was me apparently insisting that muslims don't really mean what they say, or the revised version, insisting that they would reject what they claim to support.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:45pm:

Why is it meaningless?

Because it is not doing or proving anything meaningful. Thats just a simple statement of fact FD - nothing whatsoever is riding on these responses, and it will do precisely nothing.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:45pm:

They were asked what they think. They said what they think. It is what they think.

I agree 100%. I have never once disputed this for however many weeks this inane debate has been going on. I literally have no idea why you would keep insisting for so long that I do not agree with this.

What I *DO* refuse to "insist" though, is that these responses will give a perfect reflection of how muslims might vote if ever they were asked to put these proposals into actual law. They were given a choice between "yes" and "no" - no choice of "maybe", "depends", "in certain circumstances" or even a "don't know". Thus I don't consider the results of this very useful in predicting how these people would actually vote on any proposed apostasy law, because such intricacies need to be fleshed out. But its NOT because I don't think they meant what they said, or that they were in some other way giving a misleading answer

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:45pm:

Time to suck it up and be objective Gandalf.

Yes FD, lets be objective. We can start by admitting that calling people "little Hitler's" purely on the back of this one survey is extreme and over the top. Thats what this original discussion was about remember? Way back before you split it off into 5 or 6 separate threads.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:45pm:

Whatever, it is pure conjecture to claim that the (only?) reason the law hasn't been put into place is because the non-muslims hold a balance of power then.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:45pm:

Quote:
even though we don't have a damn clue on non-muslim attitudes towards letting Malays implement the laws for Malays

That's a nice way of spinning it. You almost make it sound plausible.

Thats exactly what it is - letting Malays implement laws for malays. But feel free to spin it into something else entirely.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:46pm

Quote:

Because it is not doing or proving anything meaningful.

It does exactly what it set out to do. It shows what Muslims think. Do you disagree with that?

Quote:

Thats just a simple statement of fact FD - nothing whatsoever is riding on these responses, and it will do precisely nothing.

It is not a statement of fact at all. It is a value judgement.

Quote:

What I *DO* refuse to "insist" though, is that these responses will give a perfect reflection of how muslims might vote if ever they were asked to put these proposals into actual law.

It has already happened. Twice, according to you.

Quote:

They were given a choice between "yes" and "no" - no choice of "maybe", "depends", "in certain circumstances" or even a "don't know". Thus I don't consider the results of this very useful in predicting how these people would actually vote on any proposed apostasy law, because such intricacies need to be fleshed out.

OK, I'll humour you and pretend it is a referendum. How many referendums do you know of where "maybe", "depends", "in certain circumstances" or even a "don't know" were options you could tick?

Quote:

Yes FD, lets be objective. We can start by admitting that calling people "little Hitler's" purely on the back of this one survey is extreme and over the top.

No it isn't. They want to kill people. I want to compare them with Hitler. Who is being over the top, me or them?

Quote:

Whatever, it is pure conjecture to claim that the (only?) reason the law hasn't been put into place is because the non-muslims hold a balance of power then.

You spent a long time explaining that we need an explanation. You seemed desperate for one, and put forth all sorts of stupid suggestions, while arguing against the only one that made sense. Why do we need an explanation? Less than 1/3 of the population support the law. Malaysia is a democracy. Join the dots.

Quote:

Thats exactly what it is - letting Malays implement laws for malays. But feel free to spin it into something else entirely.

A racist law that lets Muslims kill people in the name of Islam? Is there anything incorrect in this description? Would you accept it as a statement of fact?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 9:45am

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:46pm:

It does exactly what it set out to do. It shows what Muslims think. Do you disagree with that?

It shows what muslims think within an extremely narrow and inflexible point of view. How many of these people "somewhat agree" compared to "mostly agree"? This matters. It is just basic surveys 101 that if you give no other choices besides "yes" or "no", then you will get a lot of people who hold reservations or even are not sure feeling compelled to say "yes" simply because "not sure" or "maybe" is closer to "yes" than "no". You are not going to honestly tell me that all such people will not take a more considered approach and blindly vote "yes" in an actual referendum to make it a reality.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:46pm:

It has already happened. Twice, according to you.

It has not. No muslim ever voted to have the Kelantan or Terranganu hudud laws passed - except for the members of the state legislature. As I said, its likely that the majority of muslims in Kelantan and terranganu aren't even aware that the hudud apostasy laws are on the books.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:46pm:

OK, I'll humour you and pretend it is a referendum. How many referendums do you know of where "maybe", "depends", "in certain circumstances" or even a "don't know" were options you could tick?

None. But you will never get a referendum framed the same way as the PEW survey. There are a multitude of conditions attached to the PAS law - anyone voting for this specific law would obviously have to be made aware of all the conditions set - not just simply asked to "agree" or "disagree" with the blanket statement that apostates should be executed.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:46pm:

A racist law that lets Muslims kill people in the name of Islam? Is there anything incorrect in this description?

Actually yes. By law, malays are muslims. It is unclear whether the law would apply to non-malay converts who (for whatever reason) iare not recognised as muslims by the state. I know through experience that Malaysia makes you jump through an awful lot of unnecessary hoops before they recognise a non-malay as a muslim. In fact, my understanding is that becoming a muslim and applying for bumiputra privileges (ie "officially" recognised as a muslim) are two completely separate bureaucratic processes. Its not inconceivable that many converts might simply stop after the conversion part.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 7:52pm

Quote:

It shows what muslims think within an extremely narrow and inflexible point of view.

That does not even make sense. The question was specific.

Quote:

How many of these people "somewhat agree" compared to "mostly agree"? This matters. It is just basic surveys 101 that if you give no other choices besides "yes" or "no", then you will get a lot of people who hold reservations or even are not sure feeling compelled to say "yes" simply because "not sure" or "maybe" is closer to "yes" than "no". You are not going to honestly tell me that all such people will not take a more considered approach and blindly vote "yes" in an actual referendum to make it a reality.

Not a significant amount. A small number may also change from no to yes. I certainly feel no need to use this as an explanation for why Malaysia does not have these laws. Given the media coverage associated with two states actually passing the laws, the federal court rejection on constitutional grounds, and a significant minor party still pushing the issue, your argument that there is no serious debate can only be interpreted as deliberately misleading spin.

Quote:

It has not. No muslim ever voted to have the Kelantan or Terranganu hudud laws passed - except for the members of the state legislature.

That's right. Muslims who support death for apostasy voted for a party that supports death for apostasy, which then "tricked" the people by lassing a law for death for apostasy. All of this mental contortion is necessary so that Gandalf does not have to "suck it up and be objective".

Quote:

As I said, its likely that the majority of muslims in Kelantan and terranganu aren't even aware that the hudud apostasy laws are on the books.

You have no clue what the Malaysians think, despite your claims of personal experience. At every stage of this debate you have filled in the gaps with complete garbage that was then shown to be complete garbage. You grasp at any explanation, other than Muslims genuinely wanting what they say they want.

Quote:

Oh look, another gap that Gandalf can fill with his own fairytale where Muslims do not think what they say they think.

Quote:

Actually yes. By law, malays are muslims. It is unclear whether the law would apply to non-malay converts who (for whatever reason) iare not recognised as muslims by the state.

Do you think this would be a deal-breaker for voters? Or are you still just trying to dream up any scenario you can where Muslims do not actually think what they say they think?

Quote:

I know through experience that Malaysia makes you jump through an awful lot of unnecessary hoops before they recognise a non-malay as a muslim.

In fact, my understanding is that becoming a muslim and applying for bumiputra privileges (ie "officially" recognised as a muslim) are two completely separate bureaucratic processes. Its not inconceivable that many converts might simply stop after the conversion part.

As well as making it easy for you, they actually pay you money. Not sure why you think Malaysians would not bother collecting what they are "entitled" to as Muslims.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 8:05pm

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 7:52pm:

Crap. Just like all your other claims to know from your experience in Malaysia. You sign a few forms. Then you are a Muslim. If you try to change back, that's when they pull out the hoops, before rejecting your request and sending you off to a rehabilitation camp. The Malaysian government actively promotes Islam, no matter how hypocritical it gets.

As well as making it easy for you, they actually pay you money. Not sure why you think Malaysians would not bother collecting what they are "entitled" to as Muslims.

Priveleges awarded to those classed as "Bumiputra" are granted on racial lines. You must be an ethnic Malay, simply converting tp Islam wont gain you those priveleges. There is no advantage for an ethnic Indian or Chinese to convert to Islam. Bumiputra literally means "son of the soil", it is not a religious term.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:37am

Personal experience again Ian?

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=52177

AsiaNews is reporting that in northern Malaysia, the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party has stiffened penalties for conversion from Islam.

In a country where Muslims account for more than half of the population, conversion is punished with a 5-year prison sentence and a $3,000 fine. A Malaysian Muslim who marries a non-Muslim and who converts the non-Muslim to Islam is rewarded with an apartment, a car, a one-time payment of $2,700, and a monthly stipend of $270.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 12:08pm

ian wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 8:05pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 7:52pm:

Bumiputra, The Disguised System Of Jizyah In Malaysia, And Chinese Resentment

"Bumiputra" -- Sons of the Land -- is the name given to a system that requires the non-Muslim Chinese and Indians to employ, and automatically share profits with, Muslim Malays. It might be thought of as a version of Affirmative Action, but it is better thought of as a transfer of wealth from non-Muslims to Muslims. The real Sons of the Land, the indigenous tribes, are largely Christian or pagan, and they are exploited and their land encroached upon, by the usurping "Sons of the Land," the Malay Muslims.

You can read about growing resentment, by Chinese (for some reason Indians, and the indigenous tribes, are ignored in the article), against the Muslim Malays and their battening undeservedly on Bumiputra, here:
http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Policy-Politics/Malaysias-ethnic-tensions-rise-as-its-economy-declines

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 6:23pm

The Malaysian government actively promotes Islam and discriminates against non-Muslims. To suggest that this is not some kind of motivation for converting to Islam is just more misleading Islamic spin.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 1:07pm

News from cuddly and "moderate" Indonesia:

Indonesia: Aceh Province Enforces Sharia for non-Muslims

The government of Indonesia's Aceh province has approved a new law obliging every citizen to follow the sharia Islamic legal code regardless of their religion.

Councillor Abdulah Saleh told the Jakarta Post that the new behaviour law, or qanun jinayat, "does indeed oblige everyone in Aceh to follow sharia without exception."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/indonesia-aceh-province-enforces-sharia-non-muslims-1435497?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Stratos on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 1:25pm

What was that about irony?

Shariah is specifically NOT supposed to be laws for non Muslims isn't it?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 4:28pm

Stratos wrote on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 1:25pm:

What was that about irony?

Shariah is specifically NOT supposed to be laws for non Muslims isn't it?

Well, Muslims are not aware of that, it seems....

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 6:59pm

Soren wrote on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 1:07pm:

Never going to happen, according to Gandalf. He even used Aceh as an example of this.

Never ever.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 10^th, 2014 at 8:14pm

freediver wrote on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 6:59pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 1:07pm:

Never going to happen, according to Gandalf. He even used Aceh as an example of this.

Never ever.

Tragically, Muslims of any degree of good will lile gandy are the ones who are proved to be utterly deluded - self-deluded, self- hypnotiosed - and not the Muslims of robust convictions who put the firepower behind their view by spreading bloody mayhem in the name of Islam until submission is offered.

The meek are not going to inherit Islam, that's for sure.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by True Colours on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 2:08pm

Speaking of surveys, I think this one explains why Christians are killing so many civilians around the world:

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 2:49pm

True Colours wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 2:08pm:

Speaking of surveys, I think this one explains why Christians are killing so many civilians around the world:

And yet, it is Muslims who target and massacre civilians (mostly other Muslims) every day.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by wally1 on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 2:51pm

Soren wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 2:49pm:

True Colours wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 2:08pm:

Speaking of surveys, I think this one explains why Christians are killing so many civilians around the world:

And yet, it is Muslims who target and massacre civilians (mostly other Muslims) every day.

So do other religions.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by True Colours on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:22pm

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, napalming Vietnamese villages, bombing Iraq and Afghanistan - all done by Christians

Victims of these ruthless Christians number in the millions.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:53pm

True Colours wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:22pm:

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, napalming Vietnamese villages, bombing Iraq and Afghanistan - all done by Christians

Victims of these ruthless Christians number in the millions.

America is not a christian country it is a secular country with separation of church and state, there is no official religion in the USA.

There are muslims in the USA military who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Dr Zuhdi Jasser is a muslim who was in the USA military.
www.aifdemocracy.org

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Stratos on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 6:05pm

Lol, secular countries also include Lebanon and Syria.

What a dumb counter

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by True Colours on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 6:54pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:53pm:

True Colours wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:22pm:

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, napalming Vietnamese villages, bombing Iraq and Afghanistan - all done by Christians

Victims of these ruthless Christians number in the millions.

America is not a christian country

The US is a democracy with an overwhelming Christian majority - about 3 in 4 are Christian - so its actions kind of reflects on Christianity even more because millions of Christian people are voting in those elections for those murderers.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 9:22pm

True Colours wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:22pm:

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, napalming Vietnamese villages, bombing Iraq and Afghanistan - all done by Christians

Victims of these ruthless Christians number in the millions.

So don't f vck with them, Ahmed.

Anyway - they are not killing people in the name of Jesus or God the Father or the Holy Spirit or any of that. They are killing them for political reasons, to beat them and to bring them to heel. Like the Muslims killing each other and the infidels - except the Muslims try to cover their covetous, power-hungry, bloodthirsty and perverse arses by making it out as if it was for Allah and not politics and booty and all the other secular, ordinary reasons.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by True Colours on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 12:05am

Soren wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

True Colours wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 5:22pm:

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, napalming Vietnamese villages, bombing Iraq and Afghanistan - all done by Christians

Victims of these ruthless Christians number in the millions.

Anyway - they are not killing people in the name of Jesus or God the Father or the Holy Spirit or any of that.

Oh really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br_70Kbdpow

Why was the first thing the US did after bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was to change the Japanese religion and having the Emperor de-deified?

Why were Christians installed as the leaders of Buddhist South Vietnam by the US? In 1963, during the protests caused by their oppression of Buddhists, the US decided to replace the Christian president Diem, and by 1965 they had managed to ensure that the Christian convert n_Văn_Thiệu]Nguyễn Văn Thiệu ruled the country.]

Why has nearly ever president of South Korea since the US occupation began been Christian? Even the current president is a Christian convert.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 6:35am

God this is retarded TC. America doesn't slaughter third world peasants because of religion, they do it because of cold-hard economic expediency. Just like muslim nations rarely, if ever, launch wars for ideological/religious reasons either. They are all corrupted by worldly//material greed, and the wars they launch couldn't be further removed from the religion they claim to follow.

These 'secular' motives are far worse IMO, and your little crusader meme is just a stupid red herring that distracts from the real crimes committed by the west - bullying, subjugating and exploiting purely in the name of economic profits for a rich elite.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 6:43am

True Colours wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 12:05am:

Even the current president is a Christian convert.

Barak Obama is about as christian as Soren - ie not at all. Same with Bill Clinton.

It is a well known fact that any aspiring American presidential hopeful can never hope to get a guernsy unless they proudly profess their christianity. Its just a quaint little quirk in the American system that I think most Americans are smart enough to see through. And it certainly doesn't play any role in American foreign policy - there are far more sinister forces at work there.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 9:41pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 6:43am:

True Colours wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 12:05am:

Even the current president is a Christian convert.

Barak HUSSEIN Obama is about as christian as Soren

But he is much more Muslim than me (not at all). He was born a Muslim, was adopted by another Muslim father, was registered as Muslim in his Indonesian school and was raised as a Muslim - so he is either a Muslim or an apostate.

Oh-ho....

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 10:07pm

Frankly I'd be amazed if Obama even believes in God.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 10:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 6:35am:

A Marxist Muslim. No wonder Muslim countries are ranked around the bottom of every economic and cultural and social table.

Substitute Islam and the Ummah in the appropriate places and you have the Islamist project before you:

Comrades, our gathering has great historic significance. It testifies to the collapse of all the illusions cherished by bourgeois democrats. Not only in ~~Russia~~ Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Lybia, Pakistan where civil war is a fact, but in the most developed capitalist countries of Europe, in Germany for example, where social tensions due to Islam is a fact.

The bourgeois are terror-stricken at the growing ~~workers’ revolutionary~~ Islamic movement. This is understandable if we take into account that the development of events since the imperialist war inevitably favors the ~~workers’ revolutionary~~ Islamist movement, and that the world revolution is beginning and growing in intensity everywhere.

The people are aware of the greatness and significance of the struggle now going on. All that is needed is to find the practical form to enable the ~~proletariat~~ Muslims to establish its rule. Such a form is the ~~Soviet system~~ Ummah with the dictatorship of the ~~proletariat~~ caliph.

ETC

The opening bits of a speech by Lenin in 1919
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1919/mar/comintern.htm

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 10:22pm

wally1 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 2:51pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 2:49pm:

True Colours wrote on Feb 11^th, 2014 at 2:08pm:

Speaking of surveys, I think this one explains why Christians are killing so many civilians around the world:

And yet, it is Muslims who target and massacre civilians (mostly other Muslims) every day.

So do other religions.

Such as?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 10:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 10:07pm:

Frankly I'd be amazed if Obama even believes in God.

Immaterial. Islam is performative, not relational. What you think or feel is irrelevant. What you say and what you do is all that matters.

You are stuck with him.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 11:36pm

Soren wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 10:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 10:07pm:

Frankly I'd be amazed if Obama even believes in God.

Immaterial. Islam is performative, not relational. What you think or feel is irrelevant. What you say and what you do is all that matters.

You are stuck with him.

Muhammad's followers are the "children of the flesh":

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
http://www.brotherpete.com/children_flesh.htm

Islam is all about performance, whether the performance of the thinly veneered Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals of the Hajj and Umrah:
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm

Or the five times a day ritual of Salat (adopted from the Sabians who prayed in vain repetitions five times a day, prostrated in prayer, performed ablution, wore long white robes, and fasted during the month of Ramadan in worship of their moon god), which is exactly contrary to how we are instructed through scripture:
http://www.brotherpete.com/sabians_islam.htm

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Stratos on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 11:44pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 11:36pm:

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman

hang on, Genesis 22:2 says...

Quote:

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of

So what is it, one or two children?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 11:49pm

Stratos wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 11:44pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 12^th, 2014 at 11:36pm:

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman

hang on, Genesis 22:2 says...
[quote] And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of[quote]

So what is it, one or two children?

The seed of Abraham through Sarah's bond servant Hagar, Ishmael, was specifically cut out of God's covenants with the seed of Abraham. Thus one son as far as God is concerned:

Genesis 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the [same] day that Isaac was weaned. 9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. 10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac. 11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Hagar and Ishamel were sent away from Abraham's household in Hebron:

Genesis 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hagar_ishmael.htm

And no, they didn't wander 1200 kilometers across harsh, barren, unexplored, untraveled, uncharted desert - a thousand years before the historical record tells us a caravan route was established along the Red Sea, to the place where Mecca was not even settled until a couple thousand years after Abraham walked the earth (4th century AD) - as Muhammad's followers have been fooled into believing:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/evidence_for_islam.htm

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:54pm

I have put this on the wiki:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Faith_Ratchet#Malaysia

Another survey:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 5:47pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 1:42pm:

Western Muslims operate in the same manner - tactical evocation of their freedoms to agitate for sharia which is designed to end everyone's freedoms.

There is a significant body of muslims who are anti-sharia. Look at the surveys of French muslims (for example) - that would be what FD would describe as "finding out what muslims actually think"

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:37pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 6:25pm:

Finding out what Muslims actually think?

Oh, G, you are a one...

Radical concept I know. FD used to think it was overrated, and for years he stuck doggedly to the idea that the only muslim opinions we needed to know about were Abu and Falah's. That is until he stumbled across a survey that had a majority of Malaysian muslims supporting death for apostasy. Then suddenly he was all "oh isn't this 'finding out what muslims actually think' thing wonderful!" Of course muslim opinions supporting liberal/secular things will be discarded, and we will be promptly told to defer back to Abu and Falah.

Soren wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 9:00pm:

The survey says that 60% of muslims believe FD is hopelessly flailing desperately trying to hit something - anything. And 40% believe FD is just completely incoherent.

Really?? These guys obviouly didn't read your memo:

Islamic fundamentalism is widely spread
WZB study shows significantly high numbers amongst Europe’s Muslims
Religious fundamentalism is not a marginal phenomenon in Western Europe. This conclusion is drawn in a study published by Ruud Koopmans from the WZB Berlin Social Science Center. The author analyzed data from a representative survey among immigrants and natives in six European countries. Two thirds of the Muslims interviewed say that religious rules are more important to them than the laws of the country in which they live. Three quarters of the respondents hold the opinion that there is only one legitimate interpretation of the Koran.
http://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-is-widely-spread
has links to details like this:
http://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u8/ruud_koopmans_religious_fundamentalism_and_out-group_hostility_among_muslims_and_christian.pdf
The French muslim are more fundamentalist than most others.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 10:15pm

You wrote "an Australian Muslim claimed to know from personal experience how Malaysians "really felt" about the issue. " - then cite 3 sources that have nothing to do with that claim.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 10:01am

I have added a link to help you join the dots.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 3:54pm

Good one FD. One out of 4 relevant footnotes.

By the way, this is just an out and out lie:

Quote:

This is despite the fact that this person had never actually asked any Malaysian Muslims what they think about applying the death penalty to these "crimes".

I don't expect you to know this FD, but just coming out and claiming something you never even bothered to actually confirm first is just sloppy.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 3:58pm

I recall you offering an explanation that you do not need to ask them what they think.

Quote:

Good one FD. One out of 4 relevant footnotes.

Yes. 4 relevant footnotes, just to prove the point.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 3:58pm

FD mind explaining to me how this post is relevant to this phrase: an Australian Muslim claimed to know from personal experience how Malaysians "really felt" about the issue.?

Also, are you going to remove the lie?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:01pm

Have you ever actually asked any Malaysian Muslims what they think about applying the death penalty to these "crimes"?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:05pm

yes I have. But thats not the point.

You came straight out and said "this person had never actually asked any Malaysian Muslims what they think about applying the death penalty to these "crimes", when you didn't have a damn clue whether this was true. You certainly never asked me.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:09pm

Quote:

yes I have.

Odd that you never mentioned this before, despite all my prompting. Why is that?

Quote:

You certainly never asked me.

This is from only my first attempt to search for examples of me asking you:

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2014 at 12:32pm:

It was not random. It is the only evidence that has been presented in which Muslims were actually asked what they think, and you have presented no rational criticism of the evidence. Every criticism you made has been shown to be a lie.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2014 at 12:32pm:

Do you have any rational reason for why the Malaysian political situation would somehow defy common sense? Is it all just wishful thinking on your part? Are you embarrassed because you 'vouched' for all those Muslims based on your personal experience in Malaysia without ever bothering to ask them what they think?

freediver wrote on Dec 30^th, 2013 at 8:33am:

Well enough to insist that you know what Muslims believe on the topic without ever having asked them? Well enough to insist that those who do actually ask Muslims what they think must have somehow tricked them?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:19pm

Good one FD. Three more quotes of yours falsely accusing me (ie not asking). Thanks for pointing out this lie is not just in the wiki.

Try a "second attempt" FD, and see if you can find me stating that I never asked these questions.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:27pm

Quote:

Three more quotes of yours falsely accusing me (ie not asking).

Is English your second language? (This is a question, not an accusation.)

From Gandalf's first post in this thread:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:11am:

I can vouch for Brian - I visit Malaysia at least a couple of times a year to see family. I don't have to ask them about their views on apostasy or adultery...

Are you going to tell us about asking Malaysian Muslims about this in person?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:38pm

The first quote is not a question, I'm sure even you can understand that FD. The second two are not even asking me whether I asked those questions - they are questions about something else in which you use the assumption that I didn't ask them as a preface to the question.

In any case, it is not providing any sort of evidence that I never asked about hudud laws. Kindly remove this patently untrue claim from the wiki thank you.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:43pm

So what did they say when you asked them?

Why explain that there is no need for you to ask them, when you could have just explained what happened when you did ask them?

Quote:

The second two are not even asking me whether I asked those questions

Like I said, I got to three good examples from my first try, and stopped. I have asked you many times, and it is ludicrous to suggest I haven't. I have also been mocking you and Brian about it from the beginning. The only reason you have for not speaking up is that the truth is even more embarrassing for you.

Quote:

In any case, it is not providing any sort of evidence that I never asked about hudud laws.

Of course not. That would be impossible. Unless of course you actually went to the trouble of explaining why you don't need to ask them what they think.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 5:05pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

Why explain that there is no need for you to ask them, when you could have just explained what happened when you did ask them?

A better question to ask is why would you present these quotes as evidence of me saying I never asked muslims these things - when it is so obviously not evidence for this?

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

Like I said, I got to three good examples

2 bad examples. You do understand the first is not you asking me anything right?

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

I have asked you many times, and it is ludicrous to suggest I haven't.

Uhuh. And surely on at least one of those times I admitted that I never asked any Malaysians about hudud law right? Perhaps you can add a footnote to that claim on the wiki - you know, as in providing evidence for your claim?

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

I have also been mocking you and Brian about it from the beginning.

Ah yes - irrefutable proof right here folks: Gandalf never asked Malaysians these things because I've been mocking Gandalf with false allegations "from the beginning". Convincing.

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

Of course not. That would be impossible. Unless of course you actually went to the trouble of explaining why you don't need to ask them what they think.

Perhaps an English comprehensing lesson is in order - first lesson, an explanation of what does and does not constitute evidence of me making it clear I never asked Malaysians questions on hudud law.

Are you going to remove the BS claim from the wiki FD?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 11:38am

Apologies Gandalf. I have issue a public correction via the wiki. This is a great demonstration of what can be achieved when we work together.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Faith_Ratchet#Malaysia

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 12:11pm

Good one FD, thats really mature.

Well at least that puts to rest any suspicions that the wiki was ever a serious source of information.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 1:25pm

So what did those Muslims say when you asked them about chopping people's heads off?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 5:28pm

No one I have spoken to about it supports it - but I do acknowledge that the people in my circles are urban-middle class and are what you might say relatively 'progressive' than some rural communities. But I don't believe they are any less devout in their faith.

And just a hint, if you really want to know whether or not I have talked about something, actually ask me, rather than just accuse me of not doing it, and then using that accusation as a preface to a different question.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 6:06pm

Seeing as you are in the mood for giving straight answers, are you going to elaborate on your claims about the French survey? What about it do you think contradicts my views?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 6:19pm

um did I say it contradicted your views FD?

I believe I merely pointed out that there are significant numbers of muslims who oppose sharia - including the French. Look it up if you're really interested. I'm sure you can find it.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 6:55pm

Quote:

I believe I merely pointed out that there are significant numbers of muslims who oppose sharia - including the French.

What? All of them? There are a significant number of Malaysian Muslims who oppose shariah law.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 7:49pm

I believe its a majority, but I could be wrong.

Look it up FD if you're that interested.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 8:52pm

You can't be a Muslim AND oppose sharia. That would be like being a Christian and opposing the resurrection - a contradiction in terms.

You are all hot for sharia, insofar as you are hot for Islam. It IS the same thing.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 7:49pm:

I believe its a majority, but I could be wrong.

Look it up FD if you're that interested.

Look what up? A french survey?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Stratos on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 9:58pm

Soren wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 8:52pm:

If you are talking about being a fundamentalist sure. But next time you go into a church, see how many women are wearing hats. Probably none, although some ultra orthodox churches still do.

Every woman in church who isn't wearing a head covering is not keeping a direct command from the Bible, but does that mean they aren't a Christian?

Religion for many people is more like a buffet than a force feeding hen battery, take the bits you like and forget the rest.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 10:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 9^th, 2014 at 6:19pm:

um did I say it contradicted your views FD?

I believe I merely pointed out that there are significant numbers of muslims who oppose sharia - including the French. Look it up if you're really interested. I'm sure you can find it.

Google;
muslims against sharia

It is 'real' movement, and, imo, it is a means by which those involved in that group, can actively distract criticism [of moslems and ISLAM], away from the moslem community.

"Look we are moslems, and we moslems want reform of ISLAM. So you should help us 'good' moslems - because we are against Sharia law."

I would predict, that when the local political wind does not favour this group, these moslems will 'melt away'.

And these [still] moslem individuals will be reabsorbed in the mainstream ummah.

Q.
How can a person who opposes Sharia law, be a moslem ?

In what sense, is a person who opposes Sharia law, a moslem ?

Google;
Britain's Sharia Courts "You Cannot Go Against What Islam Says"

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 6:54pm

Bump for Karnal and Brian.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 8:00pm

Haven’t you banned this one, FD?

I’m confused. Are we at war with Eurasia or the other one?

Shurely we don’t welcome Freeeedom when it shows the Muselman as remotely human.

Better take this one down, FD. Leave up the other threads with you pontificating on Islam.

At least in those ones you won’t have to answer any questions about what Muslims actually think.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 8:21pm

Its ok K - as long as you just stick to Malaysia - whatever you do don't mention the largest muslim country on earth and their overwhelming rejection for hudud.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:02pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 8:21pm:

Its ok K - as long as you just stick to Malaysia - whatever you do don't mention the largest muslim country on earth and their overwhelming rejection for hudud.

Don’t mention Central Asia. Don’t mention Egypt. Don’t mention most Muslim countries.

Very interesting reading, this Pew Survey. Alas, FD has panicked and spilt the beans. A crash and burn approach if you will.

FD , of course, will be most happy to discuss the full survey. Let a hundred flowers bloom, eh?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:32pm

Did you ever answer the question asked in the other thread, FD about whether this was a longitudinal survey or a latitudinal one? I don't seem to remember an answer.

This survey is an interesting snapshot of Muslim opinions in certain countries (and even the graphs note, many of the opinions are not directly comparable across national boundaries 'cause they asked slightly different questions in different countries), at the time that survey was taken.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:36pm

There's always wiggle room, isn't there Brian?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:43pm

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:36pm:

There's always wiggle room, isn't there Brian?

We’ll see.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 11:02am

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:36pm:

There's always wiggle room, isn't there Brian?

FD you seem to look for absolute certainty in an uncertain universe. Your attitude appears identical to that of the Muslims you're always criticising! ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 11:04am

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:36pm:

There's always wiggle room, isn't there Brian?

FD, for a man who seems so absolutely certain about the results of this survey why are you ducking Brian's question? ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 11:40am

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:32pm:

Here's a monthly report:

Raped and Slaughtered: Muslim Persecution of Christians, April, 2014
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4666/raped-and-slaughtered-muslim-persecution

Scroll down for previous reports covering

March, 2014
February, 2014
January, 2014
December, 2013
November, 2013
October, 2013
September, 2013
August, 2013
June, 2013
May, 2013
April, 2013
March, 2013
February, 2013
January, 2013
December, 2012
November, 2012
October, 2012
September, 2012
August, 2012
July, 2012
June, 2012
May, 2012
April, 2012
March, 2012
February, 2012
January, 2012
December, 2011
November, 2011
October, 2011
September, 2011
August, 2011

Have a look and let us know if you can join the snapshots, Brain.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 12:37pm

You checked out the Gatestone Institute Soren? It's chairman is John Bolton, Bush's ambassador to the UN who ran interference for Bush during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It's board reads like a who's who of conservative Christianity and Zionism and Islamophobia. It's no wonder you quote them as they reinforce your viewpoint! :D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 12:57pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 11:04am:

freediver wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:36pm:

There's always wiggle room, isn't there Brian?

FD, for a man who seems so absolutely certain about the results of this survey why are you ducking Brian's question? ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

FD will duck every question on this topic apart from reported Malaysian attitudes towards apostacy.

But yes, a survey of 38,000 people from all over the world does raise questions. What was the sample size in Malaysia?

Politically, I find Malaysia a bit of an enigma. Malays are generally a very laid-back population, but they've followed a political message about global Islam for years. This message was cleverly exploited by Mahatir, and this makes political sense in a country where the majority Malay population is only about 60%.

Malaysian business is run largely by the ethnic Chinese. The courts are run by ethnic Indians and Sri Lankans. The Malays in parliament wedge their position with a call to global Islam, and in a country where the majority ethnic population is not that big, it's a question of identity politics.

Some Malaysian states take a hard line on Islamic rules, but this generally doesn't effect non-Muslims. I've heard that some local governments punish Muslims for drinking alcohol, for example, but beer is freely available in convenience stores for everyone else. Mind you, it's taxed. Malaysia is probably the most expensive country in South East Asia to buy a beer - apart from Brunei.

Indonesia is quite different. There, Muslims make up the bulk of the population, so the call to political Islam is not so readily leaned on by those in power. Indonesians are not a single ethnic population, like Malays. There are over 300 different ethnic groups in Indonesia, and many languages. People speak their local language first, and Bahasa second. Federal politics in Indonesia have traditionally been run by Javans. With a viable system of political representation in Jakarta now, this is changing, but power is quite dispersed in Indonesia, and quite localized.

What Indonesian politicians do exploit, however, is anti-Chinese sentiment. All through South East Asia, ethnic Chinese princelings control the purse-strings. In some countries, this produces a good deal of resentment. When the water in your town is owned by a foreign company, or when your loan is managed by a foreign bank, or your job relies on foreign funds, people take issue - particulalry in the aftermath of a financial crisis where many lost their local services, savings and jobs. During the Suharto years, Indonesians had no choice but to suck this up. Now it's a demokracy, politicians must cater to the frustrations felt by the electorate, and in Indonesia, these frustrations are aimed largely at the ethnic Chinese - just as in the Sukarno era they were directed at the Western colonists.

In Thailand, the ethnic Chinese assimilated well - they were forced to change their names, etc, by the old Thai monarchy. They also assimilated in the Philippines, but almost everybody assimilated in the Philippines. There, the Spanish forced conversion to Catholicism, followed by the Amerikans forcing school kids to salute the Amerikan flag. Philippinos are quite unique in the region in that they often blame themselves for their problems - the endemic corruption, the foreign ownership, the lack of wealth. This lack of national self esteeem leads to many opting to get out. One of the biggest sources of revenue in the Philippines are the wages sent home by foreign workers.

I would hazzard a guess that Malays - like Muslim Thais - follow a hardline view of Islamic identity because they're a minority. Much of this has to do with security. Unlike Indonesia, Malaysia does not have a big armed force. Unlike Singapore, for example, there is no conscription, and no program of multiculturalism, despite a similar mix of ethnicities. Mahatir was active in global Muslim causes and multilateral organizations, and he did this for financial, trade and domestic political purposes.

It was also a huge success - many skyscrapers in KL were built with Gulf money. And herein lies the other source of hardline Islamification in Malaysia: petrodollars. Mahatir cunningly blended Islamic identity politics with trade deals with the old Pan Arab states.

Malaysia is one of South East Asia's success stories. It's hardline Islamic stance is a confluence of a range of factors, but it definitely hasn't held Malaysia back from economic development. Political development - certainly. Malaysia is one country where it's almost pointless reading a newpaper. Not only are they boring, they only tell you what the ruling party wants you to hear. Malaysia is not a real democracy. However, as a model of political-economics, it has far more in common with Confuscian states like Singapore and China than any Islamic state you can think of (and there's aren't many of them).

Malaysia has succeeded largely due to the willingness of its people to develop economically and let the government do what it does. The old Chinese analogy is to let the ruler hold the head of the cow while you milk it, and this is why the idea of stonings and beheadings and Hudud laws are so ridiculous in Malaysia. They're the sort of political fantasy Australians have when they talk of deporting Muslims and bringing back the death penalty.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 12:58pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 12:37pm:

SO these documented reports are not true? Is that what you are saying?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 1:35pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 12:37pm:

HB,

Why don't you go and look at the information on the Gatestone Institute site, and make a list of all of the misinformation you find there.

You know, all of the items that you consider to be slandering ISLAM and spreading 'Islamophobia'.

Then come back here and 'enlighten' us.

HB,

After you have finished with teh Gatestone Institute, you can then go here too.....

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

I want you to list all of the items at THE RELIGION OF PEACE site that you consider to be slandering ISLAM and spreading 'Islamophobia'.

Why ?

Because i already went and had a look at those two sites, and i just could not find any information that was 'misrepresenting' ISLAM and moslems.

But i know that you will 'hunt them all out' for us, if they in fact exist.

:D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 1:53pm

Quote:

Analyses
Conservatism

The organization describes itself as a "non-partisan" on its about page on their website.[7] Sheila Musaji's The American Muslim describes Gatestone as "neo-con".[49] LGBT Gay Star News describes Gatestone as "conservative".[50]
Criticism

The Institute for Policy Studies has noted that "[t]he institute was founded in 2011 by Nina Rosenwald, an heiress of the Sears Roebuck empire who has been a key philanthropic backer of anti-Muslim groups and individuals in the United States".[51] Sheila Musaji's The American Muslim includes it and Nina Rosenwald in a Who’s Who of the Anti-Muslim/Anti-Arab/Islamophobia Industry,[52] Ali Gharib, of the blog Open Zion, describes it as "a spin-off of the Hudson Institute where right-wingers (along with Alan Dershowitz) champion hawkish, often "pro-Israel" policies and, not infrequently, rattle off Islamophobic blogposts."[53]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute#Analyses]

Appears my analysis is supported by others. It is not what it reports but the method and means by which it reports it Yadda and Soren. Of course, you'd perceive no bias because you are biased in that direction, you therefore accept what they say as being true whereas anybody who is more objective does not. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 2:38pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 1:53pm:

Quote:

In what way are the reports biased?
I see no bias in Raymond Ibrahim's reporting - unless you regards the reporting of Muslims violence against Christians itself as a biased act.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 3:23pm

Karnal wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 12:57pm:

Malaysia is not a real democracy. However, as a model of political-economics, it has far more in common with Confuscian states like Singapore and China than any Islamic state you can think of (and there's aren't many of them).

Thats a very astute observation K.

Islamic politics in Malaysia is inextricably entwined in the politics of nationalism, as you mentioned. Malays need to assert a sort of stabilising dominance, and islam is the vehicle. The occasional crazy cleric and stupid politician who complains about dogs at the Commonwealth games are the useful idiots in these political games. The mainstream media dutifully plays along as well.

And yet at the same time there is a funny paradox where an ethnic-unity nationalism is also pushed. The dominant and ruling UMNO party ostensibly stands for ethnic Malays, (United Malays National Organisation), yet it in reality its the party that most represents and promotes the unity of all 3 ethnic groups, and also promoting a secular nationalism, where islam is a mere backdrop. Yesterday was independence day - few countries display their national enthusiasm as much as Malaysia. The government will be pushing cheesy ads on the TV that have hijabi girls alongside non-hijabi girls, malays laughing with their chinese and Indian brothers and sisters, and of course much flag waving - superimposed with historic footage of past PMs looking on sagely.

This is the strange juggling act the government runs - assert a benign malay/islamic dominance, while at the same time cashing in on the 'feel-good' ethnic unity card. But as you point out - the "islamic" politics has very little to do with actual islamism as we understand it in the ME and Africa. Its more about maintaining the same economic model that has served Malaysia so well for the past 50 years.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 6:07pm

Quote:

I would hazzard a guess that Malays - like Muslim Thais - follow a hardline view of Islamic identity because they're a minority.

of 60%?

Quote:

Malaysia has succeeded largely due to the willingness of its people to develop economically and let the government do what it does. The old Chinese analogy is to let the ruler hold the head of the cow while you milk it, and this is why the idea of stonings and beheadings and Hudud laws are so ridiculous in Malaysia. They're the sort of political fantasy Australians have when they talk of deporting Muslims and bringing back the death penalty.

Appears my analysis is supported by others. It is not what it reports but the method and means by which it reports it Yadda and Soren.

So it is true, but they don't try blaming the victim or whatever spin you want them to place on it? Perhaps they just need to describe it as a long list of murders that just happened to be committed by Muslims on non-Muslims?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 7:07pm

freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 6:07pm:

Quote:

I would hazzard a guess that Malays - like Muslim Thais - follow a hardline view of Islamic identity because they're a minority.

of 60%?

[quote]Malaysia has succeeded largely due to the willingness of its people to develop economically and let the government do what it does. The old Chinese analogy is to let the ruler hold the head of the cow while you milk it, and this is why the idea of stonings and beheadings and Hudud laws are so ridiculous in Malaysia. They're the sort of political fantasy Australians have when they talk of deporting Muslims and bringing back the death penalty.

Gandalf tried to push the same line previously. However, one of the states where Muslims who support apostasy form the majority of the (total) population did actually pass the death penalty for apostasy into law. It was only struck down by the federal court on constitutional grounds. Where they have the majority and the opportunity, they vote in the death penalty for apostasy. It was the opportunity that was denied to them, not the will.[/quote]

Gee, you must think Malaysia is a true democracy, FD, but alas, majorities of populations don’t pass (or propose) laws.

If this was the case, Fred Nile would represent the majority of Australians in the NSW Upper House.

He’s certainly proposed a few laws in his time too - abortion, sodomy, you name it. Mind you, he’s given up.on all that now, and just passes the government’s laws. Much easier.

Let’s just stick with demokracy and not get too ahead of ourselves here. If, as you say, Iraq is the next South Korea, Malaysia must be a true beacon of Freeedom, no?

No. I didn’t think so.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 7:25pm

Quote:

Gee, you must think Malaysia is a true democracy, FD, but alas, majorities of populations don’t pass (or propose) laws.

If this was the case, Fred Nile would represent the majority of Australians in the NSW Upper House.

You've really outdone yourself here Karnal.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 7:44pm

freediver wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 7:25pm:

Quote:

You've really outdone yourself here Karnal.

Have I now?

Oh well, every day in every way I’m getting better and better.

Say it once a day and, insh’allah, you’ll outdo yourself too. Who knows?

You might even become the 2007 FD again.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 9:30pm

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 11:40am:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 31^st, 2014 at 9:32pm:

Here's a monthly report:

Your right-wing think-tank is not a survey of public opinion, Soren.

You willing to have a go at the question? We know FD won't answer it, he's been given several chances now. Lets see if you can step up and answer it? ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 10:23pm

So what is untrue or biased in those reports?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:02pm

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 10:23pm:

So what is untrue or biased in those reports?

Where did I suggest that, Soren? I pointed out that reporting events is not a sure indicator of what the general public are thinking. Do you believe it is? ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:27pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:02pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 10:23pm:

So what is untrue or biased in those reports?

Where did I suggest that, Soren? I pointed out that reporting events is not a sure indicator of what the general public are thinking. Do you believe it is? ::)

Well, what do YOU think of these reports?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:47pm

Soren wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:27pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:02pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 10:23pm:

So what is untrue or biased in those reports?

Where did I suggest that, Soren? I pointed out that reporting events is not a sure indicator of what the general public are thinking. Do you believe it is? ::)

Well, what do YOU think of these reports?

What do I think? I think they are reporting event which are alleged to have occurred. Considering their source is a right-wing whacko Christian and Zionist think tank, I'd take them with a handful of salt, Soren. My scepticism is based upon you as an example of someone who'll take any report about Muslims and bend it to suit your bigoted agenda. ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:54pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:47pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:27pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 8:02pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 10:23pm:

So what is untrue or biased in those reports?

Where did I suggest that, Soren? I pointed out that reporting events is not a sure indicator of what the general public are thinking. Do you believe it is? ::)

Well, what do YOU think of these reports?

Yes, but the old boy does this out of love.

He loves Danish.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 9:12pm

If you had actually looked at the reports you would have seen that each event reported is sourced and verifiable. But actually looking and thinking for yourselves, PB and Brain, is something utterly alien to your mental habits.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 11:14pm

Soren wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 9:12pm:

Soren, "verifiable" in what way?

I think far more than you do, I suspect. I give people a fair go. You don't. You persecute Muslims. ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 11:30pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 11:14pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 9:12pm:

Soren, "verifiable" in what way?

I think far more than you do, I suspect. I give people a fair go. You don't. You persecute Muslims. ::)

Have a look and you will see how they are all verifiable news reports.

I give you a few years' worth of news from around the world, document I g the persecution and murder of Christians by Muslims - and you call me persecutor of Muslims. AND call that thinking. Your craven, spineless apologetics on display, hot breath Brain.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 11:05am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 11:14pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 9:12pm:

Soren, "verifiable" in what way?

"Verifiable" in that they are reports from online media sources. As most who are Islamophobic question any MSM report favourable to Muslims, why are they so trusting of reports which are critical of Muslims? Oh, wait, of course, because it reinforces their Islamophobia!

It's particularly interesting that in many of the media reports that Soren's Islamophobic think-tank links to, it is actually Muslims who save the victims of these attacks. Isn't that rather contradictory to the claim that Soren makes that it's the attackers are the true Muslims and those that question their motives "apostates"? ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 7:28pm

Soren wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 11:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 11:14pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2014 at 9:12pm:

Soren, "verifiable" in what way?

I think far more than you do, I suspect. I give people a fair go. You don't. You persecute Muslims. ::)

Have a look and you will see how they are all verifiable news reports.

"Verifiable" in what way, Soren?

Quote:

I give you a few years' worth of news from around the world, document I g the persecution and murder of Christians by Muslims - and you call me persecutor of Muslims. AND call that thinking. Your craven, spineless apologetics on display, hot breath Brain.

Soren, reports of activities are not surveys of public opinion. That you can't see the difference is very worrying. Tell me, would reading news about the events in say, Toowoomba tell you very much about the public of Toowoomba's attitudes to other issues? Of course not. So why does reporting about the actions of individuals or small groups of Muslims in Nigeria tell you about the opinions of Muslims in Indonesia? ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 8:26pm

Quote:

Soren, reports of activities are not surveys of public opinion.

Neither are surveys of public opinion, apparently.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 8:37pm

freediver wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 8:26pm:

Quote:

Soren, reports of activities are not surveys of public opinion.

Neither are surveys of public opinion, apparently.

Really? Where was that claimed, FD? ::)

Do you do thatching professionally by the way? You should take it up, you're getting so good at it, you know? ;D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 8:47pm

So then, Brain/breath, you are saying that despite all these reports, there is no religious killing and persecution of Christians by Muslims in Muslim countries? All the reports are false, all the evidence is to be ignored ( as in Rotherham?).

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 8:54pm

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 8:47pm:

No, that is not what I am saying, Soren. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Your reports are about events and do not constitute a survey of the attitudes of an entire society. You are attempting to compare apples and oranges. You are claiming that events are something they are not. ::)

Please keep trying though, its very amusing to watch. ;D

I note that you've failed to answer the question about how "verifiable" these reports are. Does that mean you've recognised how silly your claim was? ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02pm

Muslims are killing Christians in Muslim countries. The evidence is overwhelming.
What YOU think is wholly irrelevant to the situation.
You can recognise it or you can carry on like that other thick as four f***g firedoorz, gweggowy.
True to form, you lurch once again to emulate the worst kind of thickos.
Carry on. Put in a few swivel eyes under your even more idiotic alias.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 10:44pm

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02pm:

Muslims are killing Christians in Muslim countries. The evidence is overwhelming.

Has anybody denied that old boy?

Quote:

What YOU think is wholly irrelevant to the situation.

I think what he thinks is as equally important as what you think! Let me express his opinion! ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Quote:

You can recognise it or you can carry on like that other thick as four f***g firedoorz, gweggowy.
True to form, you lurch once again to emulate the worst kind of thickos.
Carry on. Put in a few swivel eyes under your even more idiotic alias.

I'm going to have to assume this is an example of what Brian calls the bluster defence. You realise you've been tripped up and you go on the attack rather than answer the points raised. So, so funny. So predictable. Logic really isn't your strongpoint is it but then for bigots, it never is. Prejudice replaces rationale thought! ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:35am

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02pm:

As much as you'd prefer, Soren some of us seem to still have our eye on what the point was. You claimed that the reportage of these events gave you some insight into the attitudes of all Muslims and were the equivalent in your mind at least, of a proper attitudinal survey which had been scientifically conducted and analysed using proper statistical methodologies. I have pointed out that there is a considerable difference between the two. One merely reports events, the other reports attitudes. You however seem to have some difficulty grasping this difference for some reason. Why? ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Team Murdoch on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 2:16am

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02pm:

Muslims are killing Christians in Muslim countries. The evidence is overwhelming

Overwhelming?

So where is this overwhelming proof?

The evidence says that is the other way around.

Christians are slaughtering Muslims in the Central African Republic:

theguardian.com/global-development/gallery/2014/may/02/central-african-republic-muslims-flee-conflict-stricken-capital-in-pictures

Jews slaughter Muslims in Palestine:

washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-un-says-7-in-10-palestinians-killed-in-gaza-were-civilians-israel-disagrees/2014/08/29/44edc598-2faa-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html

Where is Abbott's aid and weapons for them?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 10:11am

Team Murdoch wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 2:16am:

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 9:02pm:

Muslims are killing Christians in Muslim countries. The evidence is overwhelming

Now now, don't you confuse the issue. One issue at a time here, please. We're talking about the Muselman.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 11:40am

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:35am:

You claimed that the reportage of these events gave you some insight into the attitudes of all Muslims and were the equivalent in your mind at least, of a proper attitudinal survey which had been scientifically conducted and analysed using proper statistical methodologies.

Nonsense. You just make it up as you go.

I simply said that Muslims are killing Christians in Muslim countries. And that the evidence is overwhelming.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:32pm

Soren wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:35am:

Nonsense. You just make it up as you go.

No, it's obvious that you're living in delusion. Brian is right, he was talking about the Pew Survey and you tried to introduce these reports as being some sort of substitute for it! What a tool. ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Quote:

I simply said that Muslims are killing Christians in Muslim countries. And that the evidence is overwhelming.

And the significance of this is, what? Soren, you're dissembling. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:44pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:32pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:35am:

Nonsense. You just make it up as you go.

I simply said that Muslims are killing Christians in Muslim countries. And that the evidence is overwhelming.

And the significance of this is, what? Soren, you're dissembling. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

The significance is that it is happening and that that it is happening on religious grounds to innocents who have not done anything to deserve it. Oh, and that it is done on explicitly Islamic grounds.

That's the significance of it.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 3:35pm

Soren wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:32pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:35am:

Nonsense. You just make it up as you go.

I simply said that Muslims are killing Christians in Muslim countries. And that the evidence is overwhelming.

And the significance of this is, what? Soren, you're dissembling. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

And how is it relevant to a discussion on the Pew Survey? You really are scrabbling now that Brian has kicked another keystone out of your claims about Muslims.

Considering that most Americans claim they are Christians does that mean I can submit the crime statistics for the USA as proof that all Christians have attitudes which support violence and theft? ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 4:02pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 3:35pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:32pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 11:40am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:35am:

Nonsense. You just make it up as you go.

I simply said that Muslims are killing Christians in Muslim countries. And that the evidence is overwhelming.

And the significance of this is, what? Soren, you're dissembling. ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

No, because Jesus said to turn the other cheek.

The old boy says things like this:

Soren wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2014 at 8:55pm:

Kill 'em until they know they are beaten otherwise don't bother.

But when he does so, he's not following his Lutheran prophet.

The Pew Survey is completely irrelevant to a discussion of the Pew Survey because Muslims don't know what they believe.

Lutherans know what they believe, but they aren't following their prophet. This makes Lutherans superior in every way to the dastardly Muselman.

Do you understand a bit better now?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 4:24pm

He is such a good little Christian, loving his neighbours. As long as they aren't Muslims! ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 5:06pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 4:24pm:

He is such a good little Christian, loving his neighbours. As long as they aren't Muslims! ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D

No no, the old boy's an equal-opportunity hater. The old boy hates all his neighbours.

His Lutheran prophet doesn't come into it. As a Freudian, the old boy is most secular in this regard.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Caliph adamant on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 5:47pm

Team Murdoch wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 2:16am:

Christians are slaughtering Muslims in the Central African Republic

Team Murdoch wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 2:16am:

Jews slaughter Muslims in Palestine

Team Murdoch wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 2:16am:

Jews slaughter Muslims in Palestine:

And who has caused this. Could it be the same type of person that has hacked two heads off?

The CAR was started by muslims as was the Palo crap. Same as in Philippine's, Thailand, Myanmar, Nigeria, Libya, Indonesia and all other countries that have been infested with islam.

Will happen here but it will OK according to the apologists because its only a couple muslims who want to kill you.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Hot Breath on Sep 5^th, 2014 at 2:52pm

Adamant wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 5:47pm:

Will happen here but it will OK according to the apologists because its only a couple muslims who want to kill you.

You'd prefer they all wanted to kill you or do you already believe that? ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Sep 5^th, 2014 at 3:19pm

Adamant wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 5:47pm:

Team Murdoch wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 2:16am:

Christians are slaughtering Muslims in the Central African Republic

Team Murdoch wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 2:16am:

Jews slaughter Muslims in Palestine

Team Murdoch wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 2:16am:

Jews slaughter Muslims in Palestine:

And who has caused this.

The Muslims, of course.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Soren on Sep 5^th, 2014 at 6:43pm

|dev|null wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 3:35pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

And how is it relevant to a discussion on the Pew Survey?

It shows what they DO, not what they SAY.

Or do you think that's irrelevant?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Brian Ross on Sep 5^th, 2014 at 7:18pm

Soren wrote on Sep 5^th, 2014 at 6:43pm:

|dev|null wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 3:35pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 4^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

And how is it relevant to a discussion on the Pew Survey?

It shows what they DO, not what they SAY.

Or do you think that's irrelevant?

It is, when we are discussing Muslim societies, Soren.

These are the crimes of some Muslims, not all Muslims. Unless you believe in Guilt by Association?

Don't bother answering, Soren. We know you do from your numerous other posts. For you, it doesn't matter how saintly a person may be, if they're Muslim, they are damned in your mind forever more. ::)

The Pew Survey(s) OTOH, show a snapshot of the attitudes of Muslim societies at the time at which they are conducted. They are conducted and analysed in a scientific manner according to statistical theory and canvas large numbers of members of Muslim societies in order to build up a picture of their attitudes. Pew has conducted numerous surveys on various topics in Muslim countries. It is interesting though, how some here assume that surveys conducted in 2012 or earlier tells definitely what people in 2014 are thinking on these issues or that attitudes do not change over time.

I still note no one has answered the question about whether these Pew surveys are longitudinal or latitudinal. I wonder why?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Sep 5^th, 2014 at 7:46pm

Quote:

Don't bother answering, Soren. We know you do

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:30pm

Another recent survey:

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:10pm:

I'm frankly surprised how tough his words are. The PC terminology is no longer there, and he's talking straight out of Geert Wilder's book, and what Trump has been saying, and what Australia's Kirralie Smith of Australian Liberty Alliance has been warning about.

The message from all of them is "Ignore this problem at you peril".

It's extraordinary to think that all these people have left Pauline Hanson far behind in what they're now openly saying.

"British Muslims are becoming a nation within a nation, the former equalities watchdog warns today.

Trevor Phillips says many hold very different values from the rest of society and want to lead separate lives.

(Whatever happened to "Oh, but it's only a tiny few"?)

"Most worryingly, those with separatist views are far more likely to support terrorism. The former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission advocates the monitoring of ethnic minority populations on housing estates to stop them becoming ‘ghetto villages’.

He says schools may have to consider a 50 per cent limit on Muslim or other minority pupils to encourage social integration.

And he says disturbing survey findings point to a growing chasm between the attitudes of many British Muslims and their compatriots.

"Oh, but it's only a very few!"

These one-time apologists sure have changed their tune all of a sudden.

And then we have people like Karnal - who no doubt is afraid of heights - still batting for Muslims who take their authority from the sacred texts of Islam. It's like a Jew mounting a protest against an anti-neo-Nazi rally.

Karnal hates me accessing the UK Daily Mail where they often run uncomplimentary stories about Muslims getting up to mischief. It pains him to see these gay-supporting people being shown up in such a bad light. Karnal knows who his friends are, and he's determined to remain loyal to them.

"MUSLIMS ARE A GAY MAN'S BEST FRIEND"

We've all seen the bumper stickers.

It's a good read:

link

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:35pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3533041/Warning-UK-Muslim-ghettoes-Nation-nation-developing-says-former-equalities-watchdog.html

Warning on 'UK Muslim ghettoes': Nation within a nation developing says former equalities watchdog

Trevor Phillips says many Muslims hold 'different values' to rest of society
He is the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission
It comes after major survey on Muslim attitudes on UK issues
One in three supports bigamy and more than half oppose gay marriage

British Muslims are becoming a nation within a nation, the former equalities watchdog warns today.

Trevor Phillips says many hold very different values from the rest of society and want to lead separate lives.

Most worryingly, those with separatist views are far more likely to support terrorism. The former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission advocates the monitoring of ethnic minority populations on housing estates to stop them becoming ‘ghetto villages’.

He says schools may have to consider a 50 per cent limit on Muslim or other minority pupils to encourage social integration.

And he says disturbing survey findings point to a growing chasm between the attitudes of many British Muslims and their compatriots.

In a no-holds barred article for the Daily Mail ahead of a television documentary on Muslim attitudes in Britain, Mr Phillips also warns:

Extremist ideas have flourished while politicians claim ‘only a tiny minority hold dangerous views’;
An estimated 100,000 British Muslims admit having sympathy with suicide bombers fighting injustice;
Many believe it is divinely ordained that a woman should always obey her husband;
Large numbers ‘do not accept the values and behaviours that make Britain what it is’.

Mr Phillips’ intervention comes after he was asked to analyse the findings of a major survey on Muslim attitudes in the UK, which will form the basis of Channel 4’s documentary, What British Muslims Really Think, which airs on Wednesday night.

The documentary will portray the UK’s Muslims as a nation within a nation that has its own geography and values.

Mr Phillips warns of a ‘life-and-death struggle for the soul of British Islam’.

He insists: ‘The reason why our fellow Britons seem so far out of line with mainstream opinion is that too many live in a different Britain to the rest of us.’

A fifth have not entered the home of a non-Muslim in the past year. The poll found that 39 per cent of the 1,081 Muslim adult men and women questioned for the survey agreed that wives should always obey their husbands.

One in three supports the right of a man to have more than one wife, even though it is illegal in the UK. Twenty-three per cent support the introduction of sharia law.

Fifty-two per cent of the Muslims surveyed did not believe that homosexuality should be legal, and even more opposed gay marriage.

Almost half thought it was unacceptable for a gay or lesbian to teach their children.

And young Muslims were found to be nearly as far removed from the rest of British society as their elders.

Mr Phillips says most Muslims in this ‘nation-within-a-nation’ reject violence in defence of their faith.

But 4 per cent, equivalent to 100,000 British Muslims, had sympathy for those who used violent ends to defend Islam.

The equalities campaigner pointed to the recent killing of Glasgow newsagent Asad Shah by a fellow Muslim.

This life and death struggle: In a stark analysis, former equalities chief reveals how extremist ideals have been allowed to flourish

By Trevor Phillips

Britain is in many ways a better place than it’s ever been – more prosperous, more diverse, more liberal.

But for some of our fellow citizens, we’re heading in entirely the wrong direction. So much so that some of them would rather live under a wholly different system.

Indeed, a significant minority of Britain’s three million Muslims consider us a nation of such low morals that they would rather live more separately from their non-Muslim countrymen, preferably under sharia law.

This sobering conclusion comes from the most comprehensive survey of British Muslims ever conducted, commissioned by Channel 4.

Having been asked to examine its results, I believe it holds a grim message for all of us.

There is a life-and-death struggle for the soul of British Islam – and this is not a battle that the rest of us can afford to sit out. We need to take sides.

For the most part, Britain’s Muslims share most people’s preoccupations – jobs, homes, a future for their families. Nearly nine out of ten say they feel British.

One of the reasons they like Britain is freedom to practise their religion as they see fit.

But below the surface, the pollsters told us that a ‘chasm’ was developing between the attitudes of many British Muslims and their compatriots, driven by their adherence to their faith.

More than half of Muslims think lesbian or gay relationships should be illegal.

Almost a third of British Muslims think polygamy – currently illegal – should be permitted. Young Muslims are nearly as enthusiastic for it as older Muslims.

Two fifths (39 per cent) of Muslims say a woman should always obey her husband, compared to 5 per cent of non-Muslims.

These views are not regarded as old-fashioned – they are seen by those who hold them as divinely ordained.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:38pm

Unfortunately, so is the Koranic injunction that a man may chastise his wife. It’s hard to avoid the conclusion that the instruction to ‘obey’ tells women that they should accept domestic abuse without complaint.

Finally, there’s the small matter of the Jews: 35 per cent of British Muslims – compared to 8 per cent of others – believe Jewish people have too much power in Britain.

The reason why these fellow Britons seem so far out of line with mainstream opinion is that too many live in a different Britain to the rest of us.

A fifth have not entered the home of a non-Muslim in the past year. This may not be their fault – I recall being shut out of white friends’ homes as a child – but the outcome is disastrous for integration.

Sadly, many British Muslims are keen to embrace this status. One in six would prefer to live more separately; almost a quarter would like to see areas where sharia law took precedence over British law.

Most people in this nation-within-a-nation eschew violence in defence of religion. Not all, though.

We have recently seen the murder of a leading Scottish Muslim, the killer citing ‘disrespect’ of the faith.

Four per cent – the equivalent of more than 100,000 British Muslims – told the researchers that they had sympathy for people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice.

Asked if they knew that someone was involved with supporting terrorism in Syria, just one in three would report it to the police.

There is one truly terrifying finding. Muslims who have separatist views about how they want to live in Britain are far more likely to support terrorism than those who do not.

And there are far too many of the former for us to feel that we can gradually defeat the threat.

Liberal-minded Muslims have been saying for some time that our live-and-let-live attitudes have allowed a climate to grow in which extremist ideas have flourished within Britain’s Muslim communities.

Our politicians have tried to reassure us that only a tiny minority hold dangerous views.

All the while, girls are shipped off to have their genitals mutilated, young women and men are being pressured into marriages they do not want, and teenagers are being seduced into donning suicide vests or becoming jihadi brides.

We have ‘understood’ too much, and challenged too little – and in doing so are in danger of sacrificing a generation of young British people to values that are antithetical to the beliefs of most of us, including many Muslims.

In my view, we have to adopt a far more muscular approach to integration than ever, replacing the failed policy of multiculturalism.

In the case of British Muslims it means ensuring that schools – such as those in the ‘Trojan Horse’ case in Birmingham where hardliners tried to impose an Islamist agenda – are not taken over by any single minority group.

That could mean changing catchment areas, as has taken place in Oldham, much to the town’s benefit; or even limiting the presence of any ethnic minority group to no more than 50 per cent.

It will mean strict monitoring of the ethnic composition of housing estates to prevent them becoming ‘ghetto villages’, little islands separate from the rest of their districts.

It will mean political parties no longer turning a blind eye to appalling misdemeanours in return for votes from community leaders – so-called silence-for-votes deals which created havoc in Rotherham and Rochdale and contributed to the grooming scandals in those towns.

Some will find such steps distasteful. One Left-wing commentator has already claimed that our analysis reveals attitudes no different from those of elderly white Britons – or indeed some Conservatives.

This entirely underestimates the seriousness of what Britain’s Muslims are telling us.

Muslims want to be part of Britain – but many do not accept the values and behaviours that make Britain what it is; they believe that Islam offers a better future.

And a small number feel that these sincerely held beliefs justify attempts to destroy our democracy.

Britain’s liberal Muslims are crying out for this challenge to be confronted.

The complacency we’ve displayed so far is leaving them to fight alone, and putting our society in danger. We cannot continue to sit on the fence in the hope that the problem will go away.

Trevor Phillips presents What British Muslims Really Think on Channel 4, Wednesday at 10pm

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:02pm

Quote:

Four per cent – the equivalent of more than 100,000 British Muslims – told the researchers that they had sympathy for people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice.

FD would you have sympathy for suicide bombing to fight injustice?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:28pm

By injustice, do you mean Muhammed cartoons?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:29pm

your view of injustice - obviously.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm

And by the way, that 4% just seems absurd.

I would think that close to 100% of human beings - let alone muslims - would have at least some sympathy for someone blowing themselves up to fight injustice.

Western culture and literature is riddled with glorifying the "suicide bomber". Think of the drunk crop-duster in Independence Day.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Yadda on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:02pm:

Quote:

Four per cent – the equivalent of more than 100,000 British Muslims – told the researchers that they had sympathy for people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice.

FD would you have sympathy for suicide bombing to fight injustice?

gandalf,

Surely moslems suicide bombers are fighting terrorism. .....aren't they ?

I remember one Indonesian moslem cleric ~~claiming~~ inferring that that was the motive of the Bali bombers.

The words 'injustice', and, 'terrorism', ....they are words which are so potentially 'pregnant' with the 'right' meaning, for political exploitation, .....eh gandalf ?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 8:03pm

But of course Y.

Glad we can agree on something.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:11pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:02pm:

Quote:

Four per cent – the equivalent of more than 100,000 British Muslims – told the researchers that they had sympathy for people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice.

FD would you have sympathy for suicide bombing to fight injustice?

Interesting. A good post by Y.

Who’s in there, Y?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by GordyL on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Your club did this and you defend the idiology behind it.
Not much more to say about your savage kind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:21pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Your club did this and you defend the idiology behind it.
Not much more to say about your savage kind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre

The suntanned?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:23pm

Don't go full-blown hysterical on me gordy. I like you, you're not like the usual mouth frothers. Don't descend to their level - we have enough of them here, we don't need any more.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by GordyL on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:23pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:21pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Your club did this and you defend the idiology behind it.
Not much more to say about your savage kind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre

The suntanned?

Muzlim ones, apparently.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by ian on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:30pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:21pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Your club did this and you defend the idiology behind it.
Not much more to say about your savage kind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre

The suntanned?

You have a chip on your shoulder about skin colour, thats for sure. Why is that?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by GordyL on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:23pm:

Don't go full-blown hysterical on me gordy. I like you, you're not like the usual mouth frothers. Don't descend to their level - we have enough of them here, we don't need any more.

You know I can tell my daughter I don't like what she did but I still love her. She understands the concept

I've heard some brave muslims in the media say there is cancer within Islam and if it's not cut out....well cancer usually wins.

I know you can't go around shouting that Islam in 2016 leads to violence. If you do it will give permission for evey muslim to go full bottle.

Equally harmful is to say any critique of Islam is Islamophobia NOTHING TO SEE HERE PEOPLE.

So what's your answer ?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by GordyL on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:32pm

ian wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:21pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Your club did this and you defend the idiology behind it.
Not much more to say about your savage kind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre

The suntanned?

You have a chip on your shoulder about skin colour, thats for sure. Why is that?

She thinks Im racist because I have a better postcode :D :D :D :D :D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:49pm

ian wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:21pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Your club did this and you defend the idiology behind it.
Not much more to say about your savage kind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre

The suntanned?

You have a chip on your shoulder about skin colour, thats for sure. Why is that?

Because I peel.

Miam miam, eh?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:51pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:32pm:

ian wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:21pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Your club did this and you defend the idiology behind it.
Not much more to say about your savage kind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre

The suntanned?

You have a chip on your shoulder about skin colour, thats for sure. Why is that?

She thinks Im racist because I have a better postcode :D :D :D :D :D

You’re not racist, Gordy. Some of your best friends have suntans.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by GordyL on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:56pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:51pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:32pm:

ian wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:21pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Your club did this and you defend the idiology behind it.
Not much more to say about your savage kind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre

The suntanned?

You have a chip on your shoulder about skin colour, thats for sure. Why is that?

She thinks Im racist because I have a better postcode :D :D :D :D :D

You’re not racist, Gordy. Some of your best friends have suntans.

You're such an old stick in the mud. My friends don't want to die of skin cancer, they do fake tans. ;D

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 11:50pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:51pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:32pm:

ian wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:21pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Your club did this and you defend the idiology behind it.
Not much more to say about your savage kind

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Peshawar_school_massacre

The suntanned?

You have a chip on your shoulder about skin colour, thats for sure. Why is that?

She thinks Im racist because I have a better postcode :D :D :D :D :D

You’re not racist, Gordy. Some of your best friends have suntans.

You're such an old stick in the mud. My friends don't want to die of skin cancer, they do fake tans. ;D

That’s a relief. At least they’re not tinted.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:56am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 7:35pm:

Islam has given them a bad name.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Valkie on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 8:34am

Quote:

There is a very slight difference when Western novelists glorify suicide attacks.
They attack the perpetrators of the evil, the bad guys, the final attack to end the wrongdoings.

Terrorists attack only the innocent, the soft target, the poor people who have probably had no input into the war.
This is simply cowardice and will always be seen as nothing but cowardice.
Hell, they even blow up their own people, how sick is that.

I realize that Muzzos do not see non Muzzos as innocent, and children are as good a target as adults, but seriously though how can anyone defend suicide attacks, ever?

Imagine if Western society decided that it would play the same way, it would only take a few nukes to eliminate the problem areas, then gradual elimination of all Muzzos could be systematically undertaken.
Mohamed (the pedophile, sociopath) has a lot to answer for.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by GordyL on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 8:39am

Valkie wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 8:34am:

Quote:

When jihadists kill their OWN people they think they're doing them a favor as they will ALSO go directly to paradise.

It's a no-lose scenario when a suicide bomber blows up in a a market place.

Bomber goes to paradise
Any Muslims killed (of the same sect) go straight to paradise
Any infidels, heretics, apostates go straight to hell

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 12:43pm

Valkie wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 8:34am:

You're making baseless assumptions about the respondents - based on ignorant stereotypes

The question, as presented in the article, should be a no-brainer: 'do you have sympathy with suicide bombing to fight injustice' (or words to that effect). Any sane human being would answer yes to that. Obviously the reason why 96% of respondents said 'no' is because there are well-known connotations with the phrase "suicide bombing", which people don't want to be associated with. But if I was asked, I would answer yes without hesitation - and definitely not because I am thinking about slaughtering kids and non-muslims.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by moses on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 3:26pm

How many of the 96% are practicing taqiyya (e.g. they agree but can't say so because of the **well-known connotations with the phrase "suicide bombing",**

4% said yes, Gandhi says yes, the qur'an says yes (the rest stifled by connotations) .

Still they (muslims and apologists) keep protesting that it's got nothing to do with islam. (it's all the racists and islamophobes fault)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 3:34pm

what about you moses? Would you have sympathy with someone blowing themselves up with the aim of stopping a bunch of muslims about to rape and murder some nice christian kids?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 3:34pm

I agree, Moses.

UK Negro Trevor Phillips is daring his tongue to go where no white man has ever gone before for fear of the Politically Correct.

link

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by GordyL on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 3:42pm

Gando, what are your thoughts on the likes of maajid nawaz and ayaan hirsi ali?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by moses on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:04pm

gandalf wrote:

Quote:

what about you moses? Would you have sympathy with someone blowing themselves up with the aim of stopping a bunch of muslims about to rape and murder some nice christian kids?

No.

Suicide attacks by muslims are meticulously planned and executed with the sole intention of creating as much terror and mayhem as possible.

islam is a death cult which glorifies suicide, the mussie gets a room full of houris with big tits and a truckload of little boys with eyes like pearls, for his everlasting sexual pleasure.

Re your scenario: If you're going to devise an attack on some muslims who are about to rape the said little Christian kids, why go for the suicide model?

My attack would be armed to the teeth, with all precautions in place which ensures the succes of the mission with an exceptionally low (zero if possible) rate of casualities on my team.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:05pm

Maajid has an interesting history - especially regarding how he became a 'born-again' progressive, and what motivated him:

https://newrepublic.com/article/128436/maajid-nawaz-really-believe

worth reading - especially for those so convinced Maajid is the messiah for the Islam reform movement.

As for Ayaan Hirsi - poor girl, she's quite confused. On the one hand she agrees with the nuckleheads that the only "true" Islam is the rape and pillage version. But then in the same breath she argues that there's no reason muslims can't transform Islam into the same kumbaya love and peace religion christianity became.

So in her latest book she's set out the 3 parts of the muslim world: the so called "Mecca muslims" (lovin' and peace'n), the ''Medina muslims" (head-hackers) - and the vast majority who are in between, waiting to be swayed by either group. She argues passionately how the Meccan muslims must take control and transform the religion away from the head-hackers. And yet, she simply can't resist pointing out that despite all her "its all up to the muslims to set the right narrative" talk - its still the head-hackers who have it right.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:11pm

moses wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:04pm:

Re your scenario: If you're going to devise an attack on some muslims who are about to rape the said little Christian kids, why go for the suicide model?

My attack would be armed to the teeth, with all precautions in place which ensures the succes of the mission with an exceptionally low (zero if possible) rate of casualities on my team.

You miss the point.

You assume we are talking about the "Islamic model" of suicide bombing. Its not. All scenarios are open - the question doesn't specify anything.

You can interpret it as being a scenario in which the 'martyr' has no other option than to kill himself - as the only way to stop the killers.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:32pm

Quote:

The question, as presented in the article, should be a no-brainer: 'do you have sympathy with suicide bombing to fight injustice' (or words to that effect).

If you are going that deep into it Gandalf, perhaps you should find out what the question actually asked.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by moses on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:35pm

gandalf wrote:

Quote:

No other way?

Like to get the killing apparatus near the offenders you have to absolutely strap it on an take it in yourself?

If I can do that I can throw it over a wall into a group of them and kill them (staying alive myself)

Buy a model airplane or truck, then with my battery operated control dump the explosives on the said criminals.

Get a decent rifle and scope and pick them off,

Get a grenade launcher and take them out.

The same thing with a rocket launcher.

Suicide achieves nothing, there are a lot of ways to inflict damage on your enemy without suicide.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:49pm

freediver wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:32pm:

Quote:

The question, as presented in the article, should be a no-brainer: 'do you have sympathy with suicide bombing to fight injustice' (or words to that effect).

If you are going that deep into it Gandalf, perhaps you should find out what the question actually asked.

Indeed - I was just going by what the breitbart article said - who I'm guessing would have taken the opportunity to highlight as many incriminating facts as they could.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Valkie on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:53pm

Quote:

Stereotypes, what the hell is an Islamic suicide bomber other than a stereotype.
The main purpose is to kill as many as possible so as it "Incite Terror"
They have no other target other than killing as many as possible and creating as much terror as possible.

They do not target the cause of their woes, because they are cowards.
They do not attack the leaders, because they are cowards.
They are chained to the explosives , because the cowardly Imran devil worshipers know that the cowards will run away of they could.

This cult of fear and cowardice has little to offer other than pain, suffering and desperation.
Its no secret that most countries that are muslem are destitute and have very low skills.
The only exception is only that way through oil.

We offer them a place to escape from their troubles - they bring them with them.
We go out of our way to help them - they insult and threaten us.
We give them money and houses - they steal and commit fraud

The muslem religion is nothing but grief, war, murder, and pedophilia.
Religion of peace, read that as pieces, all over the place.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by GordyL on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 5:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 12^th, 2016 at 4:05pm:

Thanks for that, I'll read about Maajid later. I've never thought of him as the messiah, but after he pimped himself around last year when his book with Harris was released, I suspected he was self serving. I also tend to take with a grain of salt people that bounce from one end of the court to the other but I'll take what he says at face value.

I do however feel what he says is a good conversation opener, hoping more from others will follow.

As for Ayaan Hirsi, I haven't read her yet, on my list but what I find pretty worrying is the reaction she elitists from those you call 'knuckle heads'. (I'd use a harsher term)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on May 31^st, 2017 at 1:28pm

mothra wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 1:15pm:

freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 1:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 1:09pm:

freediver wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 12:57pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 31^st, 2017 at 12:50pm:

FD do you consider all people who support capital punishment as "bad" people?

Not really. Are you deliberately missing the point?

No I'm trying to understand your point FD. You seem to want to point out that the majority of muslims are 'bad' people, because of their 'bad' beliefs - no?

I was trying to get to the bottom of the assumptions behind claims (by mothra I think, but they are made here regularly by a variety of people) that the vast majority of Muslims are good people. So far Mothra has pointed out an unwillingness to accept at face value what Muslims from around the world say they believe.

Nope. I maintain that the vast majority of Muslims are good people.

Did you do something to disprove that and i didn't notice?

Here you go Mothra.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 4^th, 2017 at 6:49pm

The question is FD, do we want to exclude people from Australia based on what they believe? What are we going to do, police thought?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Frank on Jun 4^th, 2017 at 9:59pm

If you still haven't abandoned Islam you are like the Communists who remained loyal after the 1956 Hungarian revolution or the 1968 Check revolution.

If you are still a loyal Muslim after all those dreadful Muslim terrorist attacks, you are an enemy of humanity.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 12:35pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 4^th, 2017 at 6:49pm:

The question is FD, do we want to exclude people from Australia based on what they believe? What are we going to do, police thought?

We should not let people migrate to Australia if they are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy.

Other than that, open and honest discussion should be enough to manage the problem within Australia.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 6:12pm

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 12:35pm:

We should not let people migrate to Australia if they are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy.

On what basis do we determine this?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Sprintcyclist on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:31am

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 6:12pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 12:35pm:

We should not let people migrate to Australia if they are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy.

On what basis do we determine this?

if they are muslims, they are opposed to us.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 10:41am

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

So, questions like:

1) do you acknowledge that Mohammad was a power-hungry psychopath who led a death cult?

2) do you believe that men are 'maintainers of women' and that they may hit their wife if she disobeys him?

3) do you believe that the Quran:

- is wholly the word of god?
- is partially the word of god?
- is not the word of god?
- is the ravings of a lunatic?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:37pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:31am:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 6:12pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 12:35pm:

We should not let people migrate to Australia if they are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy.

On what basis do we determine this?

if they are muslims, they are opposed to us.

Even sufis?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 6:29pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

A lot of people probably don't even know who Muhammad is. Finding out whether they are Muslim is only relevant to the extent that it suggests more specific questions about freedom and democracy.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:03pm

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

A lot of people probably don't even know who Muhammad is. Finding out whether they are Muslim is only relevant to the extent that it suggests more specific questions about freedom and democracy.

But, a person could lie about being Muslim? They could use the strategy of 'Taqiyyah' of which I'm sure you are aware. This doctrine makes it permissible to conceal that you are a Muslim if you fear persecution. The religious authorities would just extend its use to include such a situation by making a ruling.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:07pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:03pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

A lot of people probably don't even know who Muhammad is. Finding out whether they are Muslim is only relevant to the extent that it suggests more specific questions about freedom and democracy.

The basis for exclusion is whether they oppose freedom and democracy, not their religion.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:09pm

Quote:

The basis for exclusion is whether they oppose freedom and democracy, not their religion.

Ok, but again, Taqiyyah is still in play. They could lie on the values test and say that they believe in democracy, etc. whilst not truly believing it.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:14pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:09pm:

Quote:

The basis for exclusion is whether they oppose freedom and democracy, not their religion.

Ok, but again, Taqiyyah is still in play. They could lie on the values test and say that they believe in democracy, etc. whilst not truly believing it.

I've seen Muslims pretend to support freedom and democracy. It's hard to pretend you support something you do not understand.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:18pm

FD's idea is to interrogate ~~suspects~~ muslim visa applicants for months on end until you can find a way to twist their answer "I support freedom and democracy" into "I want to kill all non-muslims and establish a Caliphate".

Much like how this forum works.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:34pm

Quote:

I've seen Muslims pretend to support freedom and democracy. It's hard to pretend you support something you do not understand.

Mmm. Ok.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Frank on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:40pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:18pm:

Why do Muslims want to leave the 'Muslim lands' and come to the West - the West that 'meddles' with the Muslim lands 'all the time'.

I don't get it. Why don't they just be glad to live in the 'Muslim lands'?? Why are they flocking to the kuffar's lands - and not abandon Islam? I do think it is a takeover bid. It's 'Andalus' by stealth, once again.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by John Smith on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:44pm

Frank wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:40pm:

Why do Muslims want to leave the 'Muslim lands' and come to the West

maybe it's the weather? I hear it often rains bombs on their homeland

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:51pm

John Smith wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:44pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:40pm:

Why do Muslims want to leave the 'Muslim lands' and come to the West

maybe it's the weather? I hear it often rains bombs on their homeland

Haha!

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Frank on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 10:22pm

John Smith wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:44pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:40pm:

Why do Muslims want to leave the 'Muslim lands' and come to the West

maybe it's the weather? I hear it often rains bombs on their homeland

Why don't they go to peaceful Muslim countries. They have noice weather.

Are there any peaceful Muslims counties? What's which wanting to live among the kuffar??

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 10:40pm

Frank wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 10:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:44pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 9:40pm:

Why do Muslims want to leave the 'Muslim lands' and come to the West

maybe it's the weather? I hear it often rains bombs on their homeland

Why don't they go to peaceful Muslim countries. They have noice weather.

Are there any peaceful Muslims counties? What's which wanting to live among the kuffar??

The reason why they want to live here is because of our high standard living, which is not matched by any Muslim-majority country (or many countries for that fact).

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 10:49pm

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:07pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 7:03pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 5:36pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 12:39pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 5^th, 2017 at 8:04pm:

The same way we judge them on the other requirements for citizenship.

Which is what exactly?

Aks them lots of questions. Look into their background.

A lot of people probably don't even know who Muhammad is. Finding out whether they are Muslim is only relevant to the extent that it suggests more specific questions about freedom and democracy.

The basis for exclusion is whether they oppose freedom and democracy, not their religion.

Well, that, and their subhuman Negroid interbreeding.

A plausible theory, I'm shure you'll agree.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 10:50pm

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

Apart from Frank, you mean?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 10:33am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes. Well you are an idiot then. What about in REALITY?

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal. Everyone is interested in your solution Gandalf.... out with it...

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 12:17pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Do you think it is religious discrimination to exclude people who reject freedom?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 12:56pm

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 12:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Do you think it is religious discrimination to exclude people who reject freedom?

No.

Next strawman?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 1:19pm

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 12:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Do you think it is religious discrimination to exclude people who reject freedom?

Don't believe him, FD. And don't pay any attention to the thread you started or the multiple posts where you asked G this very question.

Taqiyya, innit.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by AugCaesarustus on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 2:34pm

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 12:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Do you think it is religious discrimination to exclude people who reject freedom?

I'm willing meet in the centre here: on the one hand I agree that many people across the world hold beliefs and values that are contrary to the mainstream in Australia (not just many Muslims). I also recognize that beliefs CAN have consequences (not every one who beliefs something will necessarily act upon it).

In terms of 'doing something about it' I would support an Australian values test that asked fundamental questions to see if migrants shared our values. Ultimately, I believe that values are important.

On the other hand, I don't advocate (and I'm not saying you are) going around questioning, demonizing and marginalizing people based on what they may (may not) believe; nor do I believe we should ban the burqa etc.

Ultimately, this is a difficult issue: we cannot effectively solve this issue without significantly compromising our values and institutions, which would only be used as ammunition by our enemies.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 12:56pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 12:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Do you think it is religious discrimination to exclude people who reject freedom?

No.

Next strawman?

So what is your actual reason for supporting the immigration of people who oppose freedom and democracy?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Frank on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 8:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Why NOT discriminate against Islam? It has brought nothing positive or any improvement to the West. It's sole contribution has been division, fear and murder.

Why not expect immigrants from Muslim countries to show evidence of sincere apostasy from Islam or to be non-Muslims? That's what I would require. For under-55s, admission or evidence of devout Islamic beliefs should be a red flag.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 15^th, 2017 at 12:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 15^th, 2017 at 7:32am:

freediver wrote on Jun 14^th, 2017 at 8:05pm:

I think they had over 50% support for one of the death penalty ones.

I think you are mistaken. And you are definitely mistaken in thinking the extreme responses are "more common" in Indonesia.

Gandalf, see the opening post in this thread. Indonesia got 48% for the stoning for adultery question. That's pretty barbaric.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Jun 15^th, 2017 at 12:59pm

freediver wrote on Jun 15^th, 2017 at 12:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 15^th, 2017 at 7:32am:

freediver wrote on Jun 14^th, 2017 at 8:05pm:

I think they had over 50% support for one of the death penalty ones.

I think you are mistaken. And you are definitely mistaken in thinking the extreme responses are "more common" in Indonesia.

Gandalf, see the opening post in this thread. Indonesia got 48% for the stoning for adultery question. That's pretty barbaric.

Its actually 48% of 72%. So yes, a lot less than 50%+ as you just claimed.

And nowhere near the same levels as Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh - where unlike Indonesia, people are literally beaten to death for suspected blasphemy. Which just supports the point I made in the other thread.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Jun 15^th, 2017 at 1:03pm

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 12:56pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 12:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Do you think it is religious discrimination to exclude people who reject freedom?

No.

Next strawman?

So what is your actual reason for supporting the immigration of people who oppose freedom and democracy?

Ah there it is.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 8:07pm

Ah no it's not... YOU refused to answer... ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 8:32pm

Frank wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Because we have this thing called a constitution, dear boy, that allows us to choose any religion we like, or no religion, or in your own case, a trip to your Lutheran temple every blue moon for a bit of music on the electric organ and some fresh-baked strudel with cream.

This, you see, is one of the defining things about our culture. We Australians let you choose your own religion, your own car, and your own football team.

We could say your own political party too, but they're much of a muchness these days.

Didn't they ask you all this at your citizenship test? They're supposed to weed out those who don't abide by our values.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Frank on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 9:46pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Islam is a political ideology like national socialism, like bolshevism.

It is not a mere private religious creed about one's soul. It's world conquering ideology first, second, third.
There is nothing in the Constitution about bending over to alien political ideologies like Islam.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 10:50pm

Frank wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 9:46pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Which one of Islam's 5 pillars refers to politics or statehood, Frank?

We'll settle this once and for all.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 11:28pm

Oh goody then you will have to face facts for a change karnal.

You will find this said over and over again in various iterations but all coming to the same conclusion and agreement whether they be muslims or not...

Quote:

Muslims believe religion is an essential aspect of a person’s identity that influences every part of one’s life. Faith is not something someone draws upon solely in moments of need or celebrates only on a particular day of the week. Islam is a total way of life that affects how Muslims think and behave whether they are in the mosque, the home, or the marketplace. Every area of human existence comes under the authority of Islam, including politics.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Frank on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 2:04pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 10:50pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 9:46pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Which one of Islam's 5 pillars refers to politics or statehood, Frank?

We'll settle this once and for all.

Relevance? Which Muslim organisation or person, for that matter, restricts its activities and reach to the 5 pillars?Is Mohammed's example restricted to the 5 pillars? Why aren't Muslim terrorists and and their justifiers simply sticking to the 5 pillars?

What makes you come up with such obviously idiotic attempts of 'yeah-but'? It must be taught to you in the Islamophobia-phobia school. Brian and mothra and gandalf and the rest of you - you are all afflicted with this reflex regurgitation of totally irrelevant 'yeah-buts'.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 3:18pm

Frank wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 2:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 10:50pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 9:46pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Which one of Islam's 5 pillars refers to politics or statehood, Frank?

We'll settle this once and for all.

No, dear boy, not yeah-but; no. Relevance?

The 5 pillars is Islam. Faith, prayer, charity, fasting, pilgrimage - that's it.

Nothing about establishing caliphates or female genital mutilation or suicide bombing or beheading those who insult the prophet. All those things are outside the Islamic faith, as every schoolboy knows.

If a terrorist cell tries to recruit you for the caliphate, tell them about the 5 pillars. They will have no credible comeback, simply a yeah-but.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 4:32pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 3:18pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 2:04pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 10:50pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 9:46pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Which one of Islam's 5 pillars refers to politics or statehood, Frank?

We'll settle this once and for all.

You are not a very knowledgeable muslim are you?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Frank on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 9:20pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 3:18pm:

They are NOT outside the Islamic faith and the Islamic political project.
If they were, NO Muslim would act outside their parameters. But they do. Allahu Akhbaring.

Allahu Akhbaring in a crowded place is now WORSE than shouting FIRE.

Islam. It's worse than fire.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jun 19^th, 2017 at 12:02am

Frank wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 9:20pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 18^th, 2017 at 3:18pm:

They are NOT outside the Islamic faith and the Islamic political project.
If they were, NO Muslim would act outside their parameters.

Oh, I see. So you're setting the bar this high, eh? Good show.

I guess that we can say that because of Anders Breivik, Martin Luther's proclamation was a project of white supremacism, no?

Actually, don't answer that. You've been saying this for years. Superior culture, innit.

Kill them.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Jun 19^th, 2017 at 11:02am

Frank wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 9:46pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 8:32pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 8:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 7^th, 2017 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Jun 6^th, 2017 at 8:23pm:

Gandalf are you in favour of allowing people to migrate here who are ideologically opposed to freedom and democracy?

In principle yes.

Not in favour of your "not religiously discriminatory but really is religiously discriminatory" interrogation proposal.

Regardless of what some muslims might consider Islam to include, you are still advocating discrimination against muslims who do restrict Islam to the realm of personal belief - like me for example.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Grendel on Jun 19^th, 2017 at 2:37pm

isn't that better than being a victim of terrorism?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:02pm

Apologies Gandalf, I should have bumped this thread myself rather than asking you what you were on about.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:00pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 6:46pm:

How much more extreme are Afghanistan and Pakistan?

You're the one who keeps trotting out those pew graphs - you tell me. Suffice to say they are a lot more extreme than malaysians an Indonesians. Agreed? Do you think the harsher laws and worse security situation plays a part in these differences?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:07pm

FD you're just robo replying with no thinking. Its Saturday night, I understand you have nothing to do but be combative on the internet. But you do yourself a disservice.

Here's a suggestion, go out, get a life, do something useful. Then come back tomorrow and reflect more on what you are trying to say.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:07pm:

Looks like FD's taken your advice, G.

We all look forward to his insightful reflection in the morning.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on Jul 4^th, 2017 at 8:39pm

Those statistics at the start of the thread are absolutely appalling, and it says a lot about the mental and moral delinquency of those people on this board who consistently use their keyboards to defend this religion and its barbaric adherents.

How did Muslim women respond to those questions on Sharia Law, or weren't they even asked?

And then, what the hell have we been doing in Afghanistan for 15 years if the people our young men and women are protecting are the same ones who answered the questions as they did on Sharia Law?

We need a totally different kind of politician and party running policy from Canberra. The ones we have now are bankrupt so far as commonsense is concerned.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jul 4^th, 2017 at 9:15pm

Absolutely appalling. Let's do a little survey of our own.

Herbie, do you believe in executing gays who do it Mardi Gras-style?

Torturing Jews for their gold?

Gassing the tinted races and their apologists in the fullness of time?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on Jul 4^th, 2017 at 9:24pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 4^th, 2017 at 9:15pm:

Don't embarrass yourself with such asinine nonsense.

Why is it so difficult for you and your ilk to condemn the statistics shown in FD's opening piece?

You people suffer from a mental illness.

Or is it your characters that are corrupt?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on Jul 4^th, 2017 at 10:01pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 4^th, 2017 at 9:24pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 4^th, 2017 at 9:15pm:

What will they do with our ilk in the fullness of time, Herbie?

1. Lead us to the cells and put a bullet in the back of our necks.
2. Round us all into the SCG and have the helicopters waiting to drop us off the heads.
3. Bring back Cyclon B.
4. All of the above, which allows you to sleep well in the knowledge that the Muslims and their apologists will be dealt with - in the fullness of time.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Sep 13^th, 2017 at 8:31pm

Bump for Brian.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13^th, 2017 at 5:25pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 12^th, 2017 at 10:28pm:

They are the majority though, in the most populous Muslim nation, right on our doorstep.

Really? Evidence, please, FD. A link will do... ::)

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on Apr 30^th, 2018 at 10:43pm

Bump for Auggie.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on Apr 30^th, 2018 at 11:18pm

With such hideously high numbers from polling the 'good' Afghanistanis - not the Taliban - what the hell is the West doing over there protecting their national culture at huge expense and at the cost Western lives?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on May 1^st, 2018 at 1:02am

FD, can you show where it says the majority of Muslims favour the death penalty for apostasy?

Cheers.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:52am

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 30^th, 2018 at 11:18pm:

Establishing democracy.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on May 1^st, 2018 at 12:14pm

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:52am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 30^th, 2018 at 11:18pm:

Establishing democracy.

Then it's been a (so far) 14-year mission to install a democracy in a hell-on-earth where the majority opinion is psychotically deranged and hideously cruel.

The only one supporting this sort of society is Karnal because he's not afraid of heights.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:29pm

freediver wrote on Apr 15^th, 2018 at 8:36pm:

I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

FD, do you think this "response" can justifiably be interpreted as you holding "absurdly backwards and dangerous beliefs" - namely the belief that rape of women is an appropriate form of punishment for running ISIS brothels? And would it be justifiable for people to start demonising you as advocating rape of women, much like you demonize Malaysians for the response they gave in the pew survey? If not, why not?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:30pm

Karnal wrote on May 1^st, 2018 at 1:02am:

FD, can you show where it says the majority of Muslims favour the death penalty for apostasy?

Cheers.

I know you're busy discussing democracy with Herbie, FD, but you forgot to answer this.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:31pm

That's exactly what they are doing Gandalf. Have you seen me whining victimhood?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:29pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 15^th, 2018 at 8:36pm:

I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

Not at all. If FD's asked this question at the airport, he can just tell a porkie and say he favours a fine. You're allowed to tell the odd white lie if you're not a Muslim. It's called Freeeeedom.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on May 2^nd, 2018 at 2:13pm

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:31pm:

That's exactly what they are doing Gandalf. Have you seen me whining victimhood?

Given that you advocate the rape of women, do you feel you hold the moral high ground when criticising Malaysian muslims for having "absurdly backwards and dangerous beliefs"?

Would you be voting 'yes' in a referendum to introduce rape with cactus for women who run ISIS brothels?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on May 3^rd, 2018 at 8:28pm

FD, you've gone all quiet...

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Frank on May 3^rd, 2018 at 8:41pm

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:52am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 30^th, 2018 at 11:18pm:

Establishing democracy.

What the hell are all the jihadis and sharia mongers and sons of Mohammed doing over here???

We probably wouldnt care about the interminable shia-sunni war of attrition if they kept it all over there, together with their kuffar mongering and the rest. But they spread it everywhere, we let them, so we have to go to the source and bang their heads together now and again. It's always been so. They haven't resolved their internal differences in 1400 years. They are not going to resolve their external differences with the West ever. So why are we letting them in to bring this strife, to cultivate and spread it here?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on May 4^th, 2018 at 11:26am

Frank wrote on May 3^rd, 2018 at 8:41pm:

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:52am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 30^th, 2018 at 11:18pm:

Establishing democracy.

Ban them - and their hideous, freedom hating clothing... err sorry, "uniform"

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on May 4^th, 2018 at 11:45am

Linda Sarsour says the millions of Muslims in the US are not there to assimilate, and should be conducting jihad against the current presidency.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on May 4^th, 2018 at 12:19pm

Lord Herbert wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 11:45am:

Linda Sarsour says the millions of Muslims in the US are not there to assimilate, and should be conducting jihad against the current presidency.

But of course. You've never heard of Elijah Muhammed? Malcolm X? Muhammed Ali?

They all preached jihad against various government policies.

Have you ever heard of the KKK and the American Nazi Party?

Same thing.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Auggie on May 4^th, 2018 at 1:05pm

Lord Herbert wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 11:45am:

Linda Sarsour says the millions of Muslims in the US are not there to assimilate, and should be conducting jihad against the current presidency.

You know as well as I do that Linda Sarsour doesn’t really believe anything she says. She just being controversial because that’s what she does.

You shouldn’t take her seriously.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on May 4^th, 2018 at 1:15pm

*goes off to google what Linda Sarsour actually said*

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by gandalf on May 4^th, 2018 at 1:21pm

good old Breitbart - the original 'fake news'...

the claim:

Quote:

Muslims in the United States should not assimilate into American society, but should instead act “to please Allah and only Allah,” said Linda Sarsour, a rising star among progressive Democrats, last weekend.

what she actually said:

Quote:

Our number one and top priority is to protect and defend our community. It is not to assimilate and to please any other people in authority. Our obligation is to our young people, is to our women, to make sure our women are protected in our community, and our top priority, even higher than all those priorities, is to please Allah and only Allah.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/07/07/muslim-immigrants-must-not-assimilate-says-progressive-ally-linda-sarsour/

Wow thats just a flat out lie by Breitbart.

Furthermore she said...

Quote:

What I believe that people can learn from my experience is that you can be unapologetically Muslim, unapologetically Palestinian-American, hold strong conviction, have strong ideology and politics and still become a mainstream American who can inspire and still resonate with people outside of the Muslim community… We do not have to give up any part of our identity… I will not be in a space where any group or any organization or individual tells me that there there is apart of my [Muslim] identity that is not welcome into any space. That, my sisters and brothers, is not going to fly with us in the Muslim community.

Good for her.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on May 4^th, 2018 at 1:32pm

Auggie wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 1:05pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 11:45am:

Linda Sarsour says the millions of Muslims in the US are not there to assimilate, and should be conducting jihad against the current presidency.

You know as well as I do that Linda Sarsour doesn’t really believe anything she says. She just being controversial because that’s what she does.

You shouldn’t take her seriously.

Thanks for that insider leak that's set me straight. Doesn't really believe anything she says. Gotcha. I'll be careful in future.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on May 4^th, 2018 at 1:48pm

".... even higher than all those priorities, is to please Allah and only Allah".

That's her in a nutshell. It says it all.

What 'pleases' Allah is all written there in the Islamic Holy Books, some of it very nasty stuff indeed.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by freediver on May 4^th, 2018 at 7:54pm

Quote:

Protected from the sun?

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Karnal on May 4^th, 2018 at 10:38pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 7:54pm:

Quote:

Protected from the sun?

No, from the shady races, as you keep telling us.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on May 4^th, 2018 at 10:45pm

"... OUR young people, OUR women ... "

There's no hint of the assimilist multicultural imperative here that is touted by our Western leaders as being the most morally fair and most ideal political philosophy for our times.

She wants millions of Muslims in America to think of themselves as being aloof from the predominately Christian society they live in, and instead believe themselves to be pilgrims and evangelists of Allah in creating a separate Islamic society that owes its allegiances first and foremost to Allah and Sharia as a religious priority.

In the decades to come, this is not going to end well. A parallel society of Muslims growing as a foreign body within the United States and espousing social values that are inimical to the average Westerner does not bode well for the future. Wherever Muslims settle outside of the Middle East, there you will find a boil on the arse of that country soon developing.

It may be speeches by this Linda Sarsour Islamic devotee, or it may be a bomb set off by a born-in-the-West Muslim activist.

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Auggie on May 4^th, 2018 at 10:57pm

removed

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Frank on May 5^th, 2018 at 10:46am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 11:26am:

Frank wrote on May 3^rd, 2018 at 8:41pm:

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2018 at 8:52am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Apr 30^th, 2018 at 11:18pm:

Establishing democracy.

Ban them - and their hideous, freedom hating clothing... err sorry, "uniform"

The Freedom Sack.

https://goo.gl/images/R3FS9N

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Auggie on May 5^th, 2018 at 11:24am

Lord Herbert wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 1:32pm:

Auggie wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 1:05pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on May 4^th, 2018 at 11:45am:

Linda Sarsour says the millions of Muslims in the US are not there to assimilate, and should be conducting jihad against the current presidency.

You know as well as I do that Linda Sarsour doesn’t really believe anything she says. She just being controversial because that’s what she does.

You shouldn’t take her seriously.

Thanks for that insider leak that's set me straight. Doesn't really believe anything she says. Gotcha. I'll be careful in future.

Good on ya!

Title: Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Post by Lord Herbert on May 5^th, 2018 at 2:40pm

Frank wrote on May 5^th, 2018 at 10:46am:

The Freedom Sack.

https://goo.gl/images/R3FS9N

She could get jail-time and a fine, but what does the AAT-type Lefty judge give her? ~ nothing.

THAT's why we hear police say that Australia's ethnic criminals have no fear of them, because they know that the courts will deal with them very leniently.

What would be the outrage if instead of giving the ISIS salute she gave the Nazi salute?