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Gandalf's version of human rights (Read 15143 times)
freediver
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Gandalf's version of human rights
Jan 6th, 2014 at 6:35pm
 
It is interesting to watch a self-proclaimed "progressive" Muslim gradually let the facade down.

The majority of Malaysian Muslims want to execute apostates, in a country where the government has defined the indigenous population as Muslim, and these "Muslims" cannot escape this label and currently risk getting sent to "rehabilitation" camps if they do try. Gandalf considers it their "right" to execute these unfortunate people - not only this, but he insists that the ethnic Indians and Chinese (who hold a democratic balance of power on the issue) respect this so-called "right" of Muslims to kill people in the name of Islam - so long as it is the indigenous people that get killed, not the Chinese or Indians. Gandalf insists that it is lack of motivation on the part of Muslim extremists, rather than the Chinese and Indians who hold the balance of power, that is responsible for Malaysia not having these laws.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 3:14pm:
Hillarious that you seem to have no clue as to how dishonest this is. "muslims killing people in the name of islam" could be jihadists running around blowing people up in shopping malls. It is not - yet why do you seem to go out of your way to make it sound like that? The truth is, we are talking about whether or not muslims have the right to introduce hudud apostasy and adultery laws on themselves, and only on themselves. What is actually being proposed is vastly different to your dishonest spin.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 7:32am:
lol now you are just plain confused. They were specifically asked about hudud. There are no "banal" laws - they are all barbaric in your books - hudud specifically refers to death and amputations. And the point here is non-muslim Malaysians don't have to like the laws to appreciate that muslims have the right to enact those laws on themselves if they like.
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freediver
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #1 - Jan 6th, 2014 at 6:45pm
 
This is from the same guy who insists Australians have a right not to feel intimidated or vilified and anyone who makes them feel that way is acting illegally.
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #2 - Jan 6th, 2014 at 8:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 6:35pm:

It is interesting to watch a self-proclaimed "progressive" Muslim gradually let the facade down.



What, are, you talking about freediver ?           Tongue


Don't you remember that gandalf has stated that he is a moslem who seeking to foster a harmonious relationship between the moslem community, and the non-moslem Australian community ?


the threats posed by Islam
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1368872008/15#15
Quote:

"For what its worth, I believe I contribute positively to my local (non muslim) community, through my every day behaviour and activities. I believe that the vast majority of muslims in Australia are doing similar things in their local communities - coexisting, contributing to the local community, and presenting the right face of islam. IMO these local behaviours all over the country feed into the national face of islam, which helps create a mainstream Australian muslim community that is loyal, integrated, pro-peace and anti-extremism."



See!

gandalf is a progressive moslem.      Tongue

gandalf does not support extremism, or head lopping.

Not even, lawful head lopping!

How could he ?

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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #3 - Jan 6th, 2014 at 9:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 6:35pm:
It is interesting to watch a self-proclaimed "progressive" Muslim gradually let the facade down.

The majority of Malaysian Muslims want to execute apostates, in a country where the government has defined the indigenous population as Muslim, and these "Muslims" cannot escape this label and currently risk getting sent to "rehabilitation" camps if they do try. Gandalf considers it their "right" to execute these unfortunate people - not only this, but he insists that the ethnic Indians and Chinese (who hold a democratic balance of power on the issue) respect this so-called "right" of Muslims to kill people in the name of Islam - so long as it is the indigenous people that get killed, not the Chinese or Indians. Gandalf insists that it is lack of motivation on the part of Muslim extremists, rather than the Chinese and Indians who hold the balance of power, that is responsible for Malaysia not having these laws.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 3:14pm:
Hillarious that you seem to have no clue as to how dishonest this is. "muslims killing people in the name of islam" could be jihadists running around blowing people up in shopping malls. It is not - yet why do you seem to go out of your way to make it sound like that? The truth is, we are talking about whether or not muslims have the right to introduce hudud apostasy and adultery laws on themselves, and only on themselves.


And as for others, who reject Islam, question Muhammad or the Quran or Muhammad's anti-religion, thereby causing "mischief in the land":

Quran Surah 5:33 The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

I wonder what Gandalf would say if we declared:

Surely the vilest of animals in Yahweh's sight are Muslims.


Of course a Christian would never make such a declaration for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that we are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves, and even to love our enemies. Yet what did Muhammad declare about those of us that don't believe in Muhammad and his Muhammad-serving alter-ego "Allah"?

Quran (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/Quran_Hate.htm
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« Last Edit: Jan 7th, 2014 at 7:32am by Pete Waldo »  

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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #4 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 12:31pm
 
ho ho, I was about to move this thread back where it belongs, but there are some extraordinary claims here that are just too delicious. I'm tempted to let this thread stay just to expose the idiocy contained in it.

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 6:35pm:
It is interesting to watch a self-proclaimed "progressive" Muslim


Gee FD, where did I ever "proclaim" that?

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 6:35pm:
Gandalf considers it their "right" to execute these unfortunate people


Um no, Gandalf "considers" nothing of the sort. Please stick to what I actually say FD.

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 6:35pm:
not only this, but he insists that the ethnic Indians and Chinese (who hold a democratic balance of power on the issue) respect this so-called "right" of Muslims to kill people in the name of Islam


Again, stick to what I actually say FD.

Gandalf called your bullshit claim that 2/3rds of the entire Malaysian population oppose and block these laws from being implemented - pointing out that you have have no shred of evidence to support this claim. I said that in view of this complete lack of evidence, it was not unreasonable to suggest that the non-muslim population might not oppose the laws - when you insist so vehemently that they must.

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 6:35pm:
Gandalf insists that it is lack of motivation on the part of Muslim extremists, rather than the Chinese and Indians who hold the balance of power, that is responsible for Malaysia not having these laws.


Just to clarify, extremist = people who respond in a survey saying they support death for apostasy and stoning for adulterers.

Yes, what a hilarious and absurd position Gandalf has on this:

1. To question the claim that 2/3rds of the entire population are "passionately" blocking any attempts to have hudud laws introduced - because there is not a shred of evidence to support it

2. To question why Malays are overwhelmingly not actually voting for pro hudud parties election after election.

3. To have the temerity to suggest that when non-muslims respondents strongly agree that "hudud laws promise justice for all" - this puts a fairly big dent to the idea that these same people are "passionately" opposing hudud laws.
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« Last Edit: Jan 7th, 2014 at 12:46pm by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #5 - Jan 7th, 2014 at 12:43pm
 
FD's far more reasonable, considered and objective assessment:

Quote:
a minority (1/3) are frothing at the mouth desperate to get "killing people in the name of islam" laws through


Quote:
That is exactly how it is, and you are deluding yourself to think otherwise.


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388619982/52#52

yup, thats *EXACTLY* how it is - based entirely on the responses of one consequence-free survey, a majority of Muslim Malaysians are "frothing at the mouth" madly trying to get these barbaric laws through...

... that despite the fact that Muslims in Malaysia on the whole don't actually vote for these laws when given the opportunity at elections. And curiously we don't ever actually see these "frothing at the mouth" barbarians bombarding the streets with violent protests, terror campaigns etc to try and get what they can't through democracy.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #6 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:05am
 
Gandalf is still at it:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 11:41am:
FD's argument relies entirely on emotion - not on facts:

1. "Take an honest guess - how many non-Muslims do you really believe are in favour of allowing Muslims to start killing people in the name of Islam?"

compared to...

2. "Take an honest guess - how many non-Muslims are in favour of allowing muslims to introduce laws for executing apostates and stoning adulterers"

compared to...

3. "How many non-Muslims believe muslims have the right to introduce their own laws for executing apostates and stoning adulterers?"

number 3 is the most accurate question to ask in the context of what Malaysians think about the laws. And it also addresses the fact that non-muslims don't have to support, or be in "favour" of the laws to not be an obstacle for their implementation. And the correct and obvious answer must start with "the evidence indicates...".



Quote:
I said that in view of this complete lack of evidence, it was not unreasonable to suggest that the non-muslim population might not oppose the laws - when you insist so vehemently that they must.


... because they recognise that Muslims have a "right" to execute apostates? Why would you even think to spin it that way Gandalf, unless you have some pretty f***ed up views on human rights? And yes, it is unreasonable for you to suggest this crap.
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #7 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 10:30am
 
God this would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.

Firstly we have a thread entitled "Gandalf's version of human rights" - based on FDs absurd fairy tale that "Gandalf considers it their "right" to execute these unfortunate people". After this little fantasy was exposed for the bullshit that it is, it then becomes a case of Gandalf having "bugger* up views on human rights" because he dares questions FD's baseless assertion that 100% 99.6% the vast majority of non-muslims "passionately" oppose a minority of Malaysians, who are frothing at the mouth "desperate" to get their "killing in the name of islam" laws through.

freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:05am:
... because they recognise that Muslims have a "right" to execute apostates? Why would you even think to spin it that way Gandalf, unless you have some pretty f***ed up views on human rights? And yes, it is unreasonable for you to suggest this crap.


We see FD seems to be getting quite unhinged and emotional that his rose-tinted view of the non-muslim community is being called into question: how dare I point out that his fairy tale world of non-muslim Malaysians heroically and "passionately" "opposing" the forces of evil (aka introducing hudud laws by muslims for muslims) is entirely lacking in evidence. How utterly unreasonable. The mere suggestion raises the possibility that the non-muslim community is not the rabid bunch of Islamophobes that FD is - and we certainly can't have that.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #8 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 11:13am
 
Quote:
how dare I point out that his fairy tale world of non-muslim Malaysians heroically and "passionately" "opposing" the forces of evil (aka introducing hudud laws by muslims for muslims) is entirely lacking in evidence. How utterly unreasonable.


Apostates are not Muslims. You claimed - three times so far, that the ethnic Indians and Chinese accept that Muslims have a right to execute these people. A point that you still have not even acknowledged, despite me starting a new thread on it.

Quote:
The mere suggestion raises the possibility that the non-muslim community is not the rabid bunch of Islamophobes that FD is - and we certainly can't have that.


Not letting Muslims kill people in the name of Islam is not "Islamophobia". You also claimed to oppose this. Are you islamophobic? Are the 48% or so of Malaysian Muslims who oppose it Islamophobic?
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #9 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 11:15am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 11:13am:
You claimed - three times so far, that the ethnic Indians and Chinese accept that Muslims have a right to execute these people


Sorry, I've popped in a few times but may have missed this.  Where was this mentioned?
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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act
 
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #10 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 12:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 11:13am:
Apostates are not Muslims.


You have to be muslim at the time the law is introduced to be affected by it. Again, it is a proposed law by muslims for muslims.

And no, the Malaysian non-muslim community is not comprised mainly of former muslims who have apostasised - in case thats what you are thinking. Its comprised overwhelmingly of non-muslims who never have and never will be muslim.

freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 11:13am:
Not letting Muslims kill people in the name of Islam is not "Islamophobia". You also claimed to oppose this. Are you islamophobic? Are the 48% or so of Malaysian Muslims who oppose it Islamophobic?


Islamophobia is saying that people who respond in a survey saying they believe in stoning for adulterers and death for apostasy are "frothing at the mouth" and "desperate" to get their "killing in the name of islam" laws through.

It is islamophobia to assume that non-muslims living side by side with muslims must necessarily by default "oppose passionately" any attempts by the muslims to implement their own laws on themselves.
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« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2014 at 12:13pm by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #11 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 12:29pm
 
Stratos wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 11:15am:
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 11:13am:
You claimed - three times so far, that the ethnic Indians and Chinese accept that Muslims have a right to execute these people


Sorry, I've popped in a few times but may have missed this.  Where was this mentioned?


This is the bullshit I was trying to avoid - having to reference two completely different threads on the exact same discussion.

Your right though, I have never asserted this.

Rather I have pointed out that it is not the preposterous suggestion FD makes it out to be.

eg:

Quote:
non-muslim Malaysians don't have to like the laws to appreciate that muslims have the right to enact those laws on themselves if they like.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388619982/39#39

note this is *NOT* saying that non-muslim Malaysians definitely do appreciate that muslims have this right. My argument has only ever been that FD has not a damn clue to claim that the vast majority of non-muslims "passionately oppose" muslims enacting hudud apostasy and adultery laws.

Apparently the distinction is a little too subtle for FD.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #12 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 1:23pm
 
Quote:
You have to be muslim at the time the law is introduced to be affected by it. Again, it is a proposed law by muslims for muslims.


That does not even make sense. Are you suggested every person who is later born into Islam or converts escapes the law? Furthermore, in Malaysia the government decides who is a Muslim. People are not given a choice. There are people in rehabilitation camps in Malaysia right now because they attempted to apostasise.

Quote:
And no, the Malaysian non-muslim community is not comprised mainly of former muslims who have apostasised - in case thats what you are thinking.


Going by by references to ethnic Indians and Chinese?

Quote:
Islamophobia is saying that people who respond in a survey saying they believe in stoning for adulterers and death for apostasy are "frothing at the mouth" and "desperate" to get their "killing in the name of islam" laws through.


Half of those were your words Gandalf, not mine. For the most part, Muslims are patient and superficially reasonable in ther pursuit of their "right" to kill people.

Quote:
It is islamophobia to assume that non-muslims living side by side with muslims must necessarily by default "oppose passionately" any attempts by the muslims to implement their own laws on themselves.


By "imposing their law", do you mean killing people?

Quote:
Sorry, I've popped in a few times but may have missed this.  Where was this mentioned?


I have quote Gandalf three times in this thread. Twice in the opening posts. The quotes include links to the original post.

Quote:
Your right though, I have never asserted this.


Quote:
Hillarious that you seem to have no clue as to how dishonest this is. "muslims killing people in the name of islam" could be jihadists running around blowing people up in shopping malls. It is not - yet why do you seem to go out of your way to make it sound like that? The truth is, we are talking about whether or not muslims have the right to introduce hudud apostasy and adultery laws on themselves, and only on themselves. What is actually being proposed is vastly different to your dishonest spin.


Quote:
lol now you are just plain confused. They were specifically asked about hudud. There are no "banal" laws - they are all barbaric in your books - hudud specifically refers to death and amputations. And the point here is non-muslim Malaysians don't have to like the laws to appreciate that muslims have the right to enact those laws on themselves if they like.


Quote:
3. "How many non-Muslims believe muslims have the right to introduce their own laws for executing apostates and stoning adulterers?"
number 3 is the most accurate question to ask in the context of what Malaysians think about the laws


Quote:
note this is *NOT* saying that non-muslim Malaysians definitely do appreciate that muslims have this right. My argument has only ever been that FD has not a damn clue to claim that the vast majority of non-muslims "passionately oppose" muslims enacting hudud apostasy and adultery laws.


Gnadalf spent several pages in the other thread insisting that a survey that did not even mention death for apostasy or stoning adulterers to death proves what non-Muslim Malaysians think on the issue and that despite having the vote and the balance of power on the issue, are not the reason Malaysia does not have these laws. he backpedalled to that position, and is still backpedalling. Framing it in terms of the "right" of Muslims to kill people did not come from the survey. It was Gandalf's warped contribution to the debate.
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #13 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 1:39pm
 
Are you sure he is not just arguing for a countries right to democratically elect people to represent them, regardless of their position?  Because that's what it sounds like.

Malaysia's elections are as corrupt as balls anyway FYI, look at their latest one if you want to see how to do rigged elections properly
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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act
 
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Re: Gandalf's version of human rights
Reply #14 - Jan 8th, 2014 at 1:57pm
 
I doubt it. I was trying to explain to Gandalf et al that democracy is the reason they do not have the most barbaric Islamic laws, as only 1/3 of the population support them. Gandalf has invented an alternative reality in which that 1/3 could enact those laws if they wished, but don't because they are nice people, or are too lazy, or always tick the wrong box on election day.

Malaysians already have the right to elect their leaders. We were talking about Muslims killing people in the name of Islam.

In case my quotes were too long for you, here is an abbreviated version of what gandalf said:

Quote:
we are talking about whether or not muslims have the right to introduce hudud apostasy and adultery laws on themselves, and only on themselves.


Quote:
the point here is non-muslim Malaysians don't have to like the laws to appreciate that muslims have the right to enact those laws on themselves if they like


Quote:
How many non-Muslims believe muslims have the right to introduce their own laws for executing apostates and stoning adulterers?


Pretty messed up way of spinning it, don't you think?
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