Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 7
Send Topic Print
Gandalf's version of democracy (Read 20711 times)
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Gandalf's version of democracy
Jan 2nd, 2014 at 9:46am
 
Gandalf objected to me starting a new thread on this on the Islam board, but I think his curious take on how democracy works is worth it's own thread:

freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 1:17pm:
61% of Malaysians are Muslims. Of these, 86% favour Sharia law being the law of the land. Of these, 60% support stoning adulterers to death and 62% support the death penalty for apostasy. That makes roughly 31% and 33% of the total population.

When Gandalf and Ian demanded I explain why these laws have not come to pass in Malaysia, I suggested democracy might have something to do with it, as roughly two thirds of the population oppose these laws. It would be reasonable to presume they oppose them strongly enough to vote against any party that supports them. Apparently this explanation is not good enough.

This does not mean of course that they do not have similar laws. For example, Malaysia has "rehabilitation" camps for Muslim apostates and blasphemy is illegal. The government refuses to officially acknowledge Muslims who reject Islam and still classifies them as Muslims.

Gandalf has taken the extraordinary position that the reason they do not have these laws is because the 1/3 of the population that supports them don't really care enough to get them, rather than because 2/3 of the population oppose them - as "passionately" as you would expect people to oppose letting Muslims start killing people in the name of Islam. Despite having significant minor parties that push the issue, and Anwar Ibrahim needing to clarify prior to the last election that his coalition opposes the laws, Gandalf even tried to argue that there is not even any serious debate on the issue.

Gandalf, the reason I felt the need to start a new thread is because that seems to have far more success in getting you to see common sense. It worked very well with the rape conviction rate debate and I anticipate you suddenly seeing common sense on this issue also.
[mod edit: thread has been merged with existing discussion - new thread is completely unnecessary]


Gandalf's latest efforts to push this nonsense - by way of clarification, Gandalf insists on using the Malaysian government's official racial classification scheme. That is "Malay" actually means Malaysian Muslim. Gandalf uses this term so he can talk about the "majority of Malays" as if democratic principles support his argument that the only reason 1/3 of the population don't get their way over everyone else is because they don't really want what they say they want.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 11:35am:
[quote author=freediver link=1379233325/654#654 date=1388528084]Quote:
and gagging the fringe islamist party from talking about it


How so?



By declaring, on behalf of all PR parties including PAS, that hudud would never be implemented - even though PAS obviously would disagree with this stance.

freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 8:14am:
You don't become the ruling party in a democracy by adopting a policy that the majority strongly oppose.


ummm... thats the point FD. According to you thats exactly what the BN did - adopt a policy that the majority (of Malays) oppose - and yet their voter base is Malays. Especially now after a "chinese tsunami" abandoned BN in droves during last eleciton.

freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 8:14am:
We also have lots of fringe parties, yet it is still the two main parties that decide what an election is going to be fought over. If both labor and Liberal decide they support the Iraq war, then support for the war is not going to be a big election issue, even if many in the community feel strongly about it.


What you continue to fail to appreciate is that such a scenario suggests that by allowing the major parties to de-emphasise issues like Iraq, the public is not all that serious about those issues after all. Even if we see record breaking protests in the streets on the issue. And by the way, the iraq example is a bad one to use - since at the time of the election the invasion was already over. The public was vehemently opposed to the invasion, but once we were there, we were actually supportive of staying there to "finish the job". Thus both labor and liberal adopted policies on Iraq that were consistent with public opinion.

Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #1 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 9:47am
 
Quote:
Also, you are losing track of the whole point here. This whole process we are quibbling about should indicate very clearly that Malays who profess support for stoning and executing apostates in a consequence-free survey, simply aren't doing anything about acting on this support in real life. No street protests (unlike Iraq in Australia), no serious debate, and most significantly, the party that stands in the heartland of Malay voter-land openly and proudly takes an anti-hudud stance - and Malays overwhelmingly stick with them. In short, Malays simply don't care about implementing hudud laws - and while you try and obfuscate that they really are passionate about it (gotta maintain that zealot tag after all) but not having the unity or organization or whatever to implement it - the truth is there simply isn't any evidence of any sort of enthusiasm about it. Thats why you are wrong to label them "little Hitlers" and a threat to our way of life, and all round evil people based on this one survey - and ignoring their demonstrated behaviour.


freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 1:18pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 11:35am:
freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 8:14am:
Quote:
there is a pro-hudud party, everyone knows who they are - and their leader(s) DO stand up and give Malays the hudud option


Of course they do this without any "serious" debate ever happening, hey Gandalf?



Correct. All major parties had a no-hudud policy, and whenever the one fringe islamist party tried to bring it up, they were howled down by everyone. Thats what you call "without a serious debate ever happening", and the Malay voters seemed a-ok with that, as they overwhelmingly voted for anti-hudud parties.

freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 8:14am:
Quote:
Even when Anwar tried to distance himself from it, why didn't the pro-hudud majority Malays flock to PAS in droves, instead of giving them a pathetic 14% of the vote?


Because they are lunatics?


lol aren't Malays supposedly lunatics for wanting stoning and death for apostasy? But as always you miss the point. If there was political mileage to be gained from promoting hudud, the major parties would be capitalising on it - or at the very least wouldn't be stating so openly that they are opposed to it.

freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 8:14am:
Quote:
Seems the political capital in Malaysia lies in being anti-hudud - or at the very least, it doesn't harm your political fortunes. What does that say?


The same thing I have been saying all along. Luckily they have democracy.


Nonsense. Hudud in Malaysia has only ever been proposed for Malays only. Indeed, other surveys have shown that Chinese and Indian Malaysians are not opposed to hudud because they believe that it won't affect them. So it really is a Malay-only issue, and which the success or otherwise of its implementation lies solely in the hands of the Malay public. And the fact is the Malays, who have significant political representation, have not in any way exercised the democratic levers at their disposal (protests, media etc, and especially not voting) to implement what they are supposed to want so passionately.



Gandalf's response: apparently having an Islamic political party dedicated to introducing even more backwards Islamic laws does not count as a mass movement....

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 7:47pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 1:17pm:
When Gandalf and Ian demanded I explain why these laws have not come to pass in Malaysia, I suggested democracy might have something to do with it, as roughly two thirds of the population oppose these laws. It would be reasonable to presume they oppose them strongly enough to vote against any party that supports them. Apparently this explanation is not good enough.


You really should comprehend what I actually say. The issue for me has always been why the issue doesn't even seem to register on the Malay voters radar. As I have pointed out repeatedly, there are no mass movements by Malays to introduce stoning, and when elections come around, the vast majority of Malays (yes thats Malaysian muslims, not Malaysians) - always vote for the anti-hudud parties.

What is this debate about? You have probably forgotton already , but for you this is all about painting Malays as inherently extremist and intolerant - "little Hitlers" who seem to be worth rating a mention alongside WWII imperialist Japanese - though you don't seem to know why... Freudian slip perhaps  Tongue... In any case, thats your agenda, this survey is only worth mentioning to push your "gah! muslim evil" barrow. Of course to you, any attempts to explain the clear mismatch between Malays stated beliefs and their demonstrated democratic behaviour is just "spineless apologetics" to you, but thats insane. To me its far more spineless to simply jump on the islamophobe bandwagon at every opportunity; expressly seeking animosity rather than understanding.

Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 2nd, 2014 at 9:55am by freediver »  

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #2 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 10:42am
 
If you're lucky you might get Yadda on here urging people to google taqiyya: the muslim doctrine of deceit, alongside a few "gah muslim=evil" references, posted in crayon. Apart from that, I just don't think people here give a sh*t about your "look at me nitpicking gandalf" threads.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #3 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 11:08am
 
Do you think it is reasonable to say that Malaysia does not execute apostates and stone adulterers to death because it is a democracy?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Mattyfisk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 91866
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #4 - Jan 2nd, 2014 at 5:25pm
 
Yes, friends, you may Google taqiyya, isn't it.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #5 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 1:52pm
 
Quote:
ummm... thats the point FD. According to you thats exactly what the BN did


Can you tell the difference yet Gandalf?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #6 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 8:09pm
 
And the absurd spin continues:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 3:51pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 1:17pm:
When Gandalf and Ian demanded I explain why these laws have not come to pass in Malaysia, I suggested democracy might have something to do with it, as roughly two thirds of the population oppose these laws.


I'm afraid you are wrong. Didn't actually occur to you to consider what the non-muslim population think about the issue did it?

http://en.harakahdaily.net/index.php/berita-utama/5845-survey-confirms-failure-o...

survey:

Quote:
Asked whether they thought hudud was fair to all, 42 per cent of Chinese respondents answered in the affirmative. Only 14 per cent of the Chinese disagreed while about one-fourth of them said they were not sure.


Quote:
The respondents were further asked whether the implementation of hudud could be a solution to widespread crime, to which 41 per cent of Chinese respondents agreed while some 32% were not sure. Among the Indians, while half of them were not sure with the notion, only 23% disagreed.


1. 86% of Chinese either believe that hudud is fair for all (42%) or are not sure. Only 14% believe it is unfair

2. 73% of Chinese either believe that hudud could be a solution to crime (41%) or were not sure. Only 27% disagreed.

Chinese Malaysians make up about 26% of the population. Similar ratios were found with the Indian population - which make up about 7% of the population.  I'll let you do the maths, but it certainly blows your assumption that 2/3rds of the entire Malaysian population "oppose" hudud laws.


Gandalf, any idea what percentage of those ethnic Indians and Chinese are in favour of allowing Muslims to start killing people in the name of Islam?

By "widespread crime", do you mean people abandoning Islam?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #7 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 9:39pm
 
you said 2/3rds "opposed" the hudud laws, and thats why Malaysia cannot pass the laws. I just demonstrated that more Chinese and Indians are either supportive or non-committal for Malays to implement the laws than are not. Thus the actual number of Malaysians who actively "oppose" the laws cannot be anywhere near 2/3rds. Therefore your claim has been exposed for the baseless rubbish that it is.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2014 at 9:52pm by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #8 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 9:55pm
 
Surely I don't need to explain this to you? I said that 2/3 oppose stoning adulterers to death and executing apostates. This is no different to your feeble attempt at equating my use of the term majority in the context of democracy with majority of Malaysian Muslims.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #9 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 9:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 9:55pm:
I said that 2/3 oppose stoning adulterers to death and executing apostates.


So prove it.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #10 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 10:04pm
 
Do you mean actual proof, or your version of what counts for proof as demonstrated in your last post?

Take an honest guess - how many non-Muslim Malaysians do you really believe are in favour of allowing Muslims to start killing people in the name of Islam?
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #11 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:45pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 10:04pm:
Take an honest guess - how many non-Muslim Malaysians do you really believe are in favour of allowing Muslims to start killing people in the name of Islam?


My "honest guess", based on actual evidence - as opposed to your baseless prejudice - is that non-muslims are not hostile to the idea of muslims enacting hudud laws for themselves that do not affect non-muslims.

To quote the survey again:

Quote:
Asked whether they thought hudud was fair to all, 42 per cent of Chinese respondents answered in the affirmative. Only 14 per cent of the Chinese disagreed while about one-fourth of them said they were not sure.


Does saying that its "fair to all" sound like "opposing" hudud law (of which stoning and execution for apostasy are key tenets) to you? The reality is - according to both surveys, a small majority of Malays support stoning and execution for apostasy, and a huge majority of non-Malay Malaysians either believe its "fair to all" or are unsure (ie not oppose). Or in other words, only a tiny minority of the non-Malay population actually make a clear stance against the laws. That would put the "oppose hudud" camp in the clear minority.

In short, your claim that 2/3rds of the entire Malaysian population "oppose" hudud is baseless nonsense.

Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
Yadda
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 20901
A cat with a view
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #12 - Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 10:04pm:
Do you mean actual proof, or your version of what counts for proof as demonstrated in your last post?

Take an honest guess - how many non-Muslim Malaysians do you really believe are in favour of allowing Muslims to start killing people in the name of Islam?



freediver,

If the moslem dominated government in Malaysia brought in laws allowing moslems to start killing people in the name of ISLAM, the moslems in Malaysia would not actually start killing people in the name of ISLAM.

Why not ?

Because the moslems in Malaysia have no desire to start killing people in the name of ISLAM, silly.

All Sharia law is like that.

Benign, harmless and just, just like moslems.


Back to top
 

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47067
At my desk.
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #13 - Jan 4th, 2014 at 8:45am
 
Oh look, a Muslim avoiding the question.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:45pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 10:04pm:
Take an honest guess - how many non-Muslim Malaysians do you really believe are in favour of allowing Muslims to start killing people in the name of Islam?


My "honest guess", based on actual evidence - as opposed to your baseless prejudice - is that non-muslims are not hostile to the idea of muslims enacting hudud laws for themselves that do not affect non-muslims.

To quote the survey again:

Quote:
Asked whether they thought hudud was fair to all, 42 per cent of Chinese respondents answered in the affirmative. Only 14 per cent of the Chinese disagreed while about one-fourth of them said they were not sure.


Does saying that its "fair to all" sound like "opposing" hudud law (of which stoning and execution for apostasy are key tenets) to you? The reality is - according to both surveys, a small majority of Malays support stoning and execution for apostasy, and a huge majority of non-Malay Malaysians either believe its "fair to all" or are unsure (ie not oppose). Or in other words, only a tiny minority of the non-Malay population actually make a clear stance against the laws. That would put the "oppose hudud" camp in the clear minority.

In short, your claim that 2/3rds of the entire Malaysian population "oppose" hudud is baseless nonsense.


Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
polite_gandalf
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20023
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: Gandalf's version of democracy
Reply #14 - Jan 4th, 2014 at 8:54am
 
Oh look, FD avoiding the fact that he has no shred of evidence for his claim that 100% of Chinese and Indian Malaysians "oppose" Malays enacting hudud laws for themselves.
Back to top
 

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 7
Send Topic Print