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General Discussion >> General Board >> Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
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Message started by freediver on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:36pm

Title: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:36pm
Gerald Fredrick Töben is an Adelaide man who was jailed for denying the holocaust, in contravention of section 18c of the racial discrimination act. The Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission first ruled against Toben in 2000. It took another 9 years for them to get him jailed for denying the holocaust by escalating the matter to the federal court. Toben's crime was to continue to publish holocaust denial material from his website (the Adelaide Institute).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Fredrick_T%C3%B6ben

Some members here are so desperate to defend section 18c that they have started denying it is the reason for his jailing, in particular Aussie, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and the usual apologists (Gandalf being a curious exception). Aussie's explanation of this is classic apologetics. Aussie actually agrees that Toben was jailed for not refraining from denying the holocaust, but insists it is "a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to say instead that he was jailed for denying the holocaust. To support this, he presented evidence that concluded that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust (without Aussie's absurd distinction that he was jailed for not refraining from doing so). John Smith seems to think that the problem with 18c is best resolved by removing contempt of court legislation rather than 18c itself.

This is as good a reason as any to defend freedom of speech. If not, you leave yourself at the mercy of this sort of idiocy.


John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:56am:
Does FD think we should revoke 'contempt of court' legislation too?

It would seem that if his concern was Tobin, that should be the legislation he should be targeting, instead of lying about 18c.



The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:26am:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:07am:
That's the one. The contempt took the form of denying the holocaust, in violation of 18c.


But he was actually jailed for contempt of court. I'm glad that's cleared up.



Dnarever wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 12:50pm:
18c is more about penalising the misuse or abuse of freedom of speech

You are not going to claim that what Bold did was ok are you ?



Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 2:26pm:
Seems to me that the critics of 18c like to tell lies about past court cases that had absolutely nothing to do with section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act.   I wonder why?  Do you think lying?    ::) ::)



Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 7:15pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 7:10pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 6:11pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 5:57pm:
Sure. Has anyone suggested an alternative means of arriving at damages?

Gandalf, do you agree that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust, or do you take the learned Aussie's view that he was jailed for Contempt of Court by defying a Court Order not refraining from denying the holocaust (and anything else is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind)


I've corrected the question so that I am not verballed, and to make it accurate in terms of what I said, and not what FD wishes I had said.


Your own words Aussie:


Aussie wrote on Dec 2nd, 2016 at 7:51pm:
Finally...after how many pages, you get it correct:


Quote:
So he was not jailed for denying the holocaust. He was jailed for not ceasing to deny the holocaust?


....as he was ordered to do by the Court.


Your own words again Aussie:


Aussie wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:58pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:50pm:
Can you clarify that when you accused me of lying about whether the man was jailed for denying the holocaust (without explanation) you merely meant that he was jailed for refusing to cease denying the holocaust?


How many times must I do that for you freediver?   I have agreed with that.


The evidence you introduced Aussie:


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:58pm:
Pausing there, it follows from the above that there is no room for dispute that Dr Toben has spent time in prison in Australia for criminal contempt constituted by the publication of material found to have racially vilified the Jewish people and which conveyed imputations including that there was serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred.


After agreeing with all this, do you still insist it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest he was jailed for denying the holocaust?


Yes.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:44pm
And here we go.....the THIRD Thread on the same Topic.

If anyone wants the truth and not FD's spin......

Link.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:13pm
What are you suggesting? That I misrepresented you? Talked to you? Tricked you into saying something?

Here is Aussie promising to give up pushing his BS:


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:27pm:
Oh.....I see now.  FD has stickied this Thread over the entire Forum!!!!!!!!!  Sorry, FD.  I'm not playing anymore.

It is a political topic having nothing to do with any of the Sub-Forums.

No more from me.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:17pm

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:13pm:
What are you suggesting? That I misrepresented you? Talked to you? Tricked you into saying something?

Here is Aussie promising to give up pushing his BS:


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 8:27pm:
Oh.....I see now.  FD has stickied this Thread over the entire Forum!!!!!!!!!  Sorry, FD.  I'm not playing anymore.

It is a political topic having nothing to do with any of the Sub-Forums.

No more from me.


Yeas, I did say that, but then, I was unable to sit quiet while you continued unabated to misrepresent what Tobin was jailed in Australia for.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:23pm
What do you think was the cause of the court order Aussie?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:25pm

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:23pm:
What do you think was the cause of the court order Aussie?



In this, you will find the cause.

Link.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:35pm
And here:

Link.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   ::)

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:16pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   ::)


And if 18c did not exist he would never have been in contempt of court.
Do you agree with his right to espouse his opinion, no matter how odious?

I'm sure you are anti-firearm and blame the tool when someone uses one badly. When someone uses another tool, law, should not it be viewed the same way? Should that tool be available?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:29pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:25pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:23pm:
What do you think was the cause of the court order Aussie?



In this, you will find the cause.

Link.


I was asking what you think Aussie. What do you think was the cause of the court order?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:32pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:16pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   ::)


And if 18c did not exist he would never have been in contempt of court.
Do you agree with his right to espouse his opinion, no matter how odious?

I'm sure you are anti-firearm and blame the tool when someone uses one badly. When someone uses another tool, law, should not it be viewed the same way? Should that tool be available?


Yet the ironic thing is that Tobin himself tried to inhibit the freedom of speech enjoyed by others whom he sued for defaming him as being a holocaust denier!

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:34pm

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:29pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:25pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:23pm:
What do you think was the cause of the court order Aussie?



In this, you will find the cause.

Link.


I was asking what you think Aussie. What do you think was the cause of the court order?


What does it matter what I think was the cause when I have provided the links to the horse's mouth.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:36pm
Are you now afraid to have an opinion on the cause of Toben's jailing? That's a bit rich for someone who has spent a dozen pages accusing me of lying about it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:37pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:32pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:16pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   ::)


And if 18c did not exist he would never have been in contempt of court.
Do you agree with his right to espouse his opinion, no matter how odious?

I'm sure you are anti-firearm and blame the tool when someone uses one badly. When someone uses another tool, law, should not it be viewed the same way? Should that tool be available?


Yet the ironic thing is that Tobin himself tried to inhibit the freedom of speech enjoyed by others whom he sued for defaming him as being a holocaust denier!


Did he? Or did he try to use a tool, law, in his favour? How did he go? The judge using contempt on 18c was doing the same thing. One of them didn't fare well and he should be able to say whatever TF he likes as long as he is not inciting others to do violence.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:40pm
Tobin came second, on all counts.  But....the point is....he used the Law in an attempt to silence others.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:40pm
Toben is a Jewish name isn't it?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:41pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:40pm:
Tobin came second, on all counts.  But....the point is....he used the Law in an attempt to silence others.


As the court did to him?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:43pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:40pm:
Tobin came second, on all counts.  But....the point is....he used the Law in an attempt to silence others.


As the court did to him?


'Courts' do not initiate action.  They merely hear what is brought before them at the action of others.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:46pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:43pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:40pm:
Tobin came second, on all counts.  But....the point is....he used the Law in an attempt to silence others.


As the court did to him?


'Courts' do not initiate action.  They merely hear what is brought before them at the action of others.


The judge initiated action against him for contempt. That was a choice, not something mandated and not what he was there for.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:50pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:43pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:40pm:
Tobin came second, on all counts.  But....the point is....he used the Law in an attempt to silence others.


As the court did to him?


'Courts' do not initiate action.  They merely hear what is brought before them at the action of others.


The judge initiated action against him for contempt. That was a choice, not something mandated and not what he was there for.


Garbage.  If a Court is confronted with a person who has willfully defied an order of a Court, contempt is a remedy.  Punishment includes imprisonment.

What's your beef with this anyway?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:53pm
Here's an analogy you might prefer.  As a GMod, you warn a Member not to do something.  Said Member defies you.  You ban.

Why did you ban?  Who initiated the ban?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:53pm
I'd say his beef is the cause of the court order - you remember, that thing you are now afraid to have an opinion on....

What initiated the court order Aussie?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:55pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:43pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:40pm:
Tobin came second, on all counts.  But....the point is....he used the Law in an attempt to silence others.


As the court did to him?


'Courts' do not initiate action.  They merely hear what is brought before them at the action of others.


The judge initiated action against him for contempt. That was a choice, not something mandated and not what he was there for.


Garbage.  If a Court is confronted with a person who has willfully defied an order of a Court, contempt is a remedy.  Punishment includes imprisonment.

What's your beef with this anyway?


I don't care if people think the holocaust didn't happen, they should be able to hold their erroneous position without being gaoled. It's a thought crime.

What is your beef?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:55pm

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:53pm:
I'd say his beef is the cause of the court order - you remember, that thing you are now afraid to have an opinion on....


Oh!  More moving of the goal posts!

I've given you links to the core cases, freediver.   You cannot manipulate them.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:56pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:16pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   ::)


And if 18c did not exist he would never have been in contempt of court.
Do you agree with his right to espouse his opinion, no matter how odious?


What I consider is immaterial, Setlanta.   Toben showed his contempt for a decision that was made against him.  The court ruled on his actions after his conviction.

I have actually spoken, about 16 years ago to Frederick Toben.  He was a loon then and he is it appears even more of a loon now.   What he believes, like David Irving, runs counter to the established historical record.  He seeks to justify the Holocaust and to therefore rehabilitate Hitler's memory.    ::)


Quote:
I'm sure you are anti-firearm and blame the tool when someone uses one badly. When someone uses another tool, law, should not it be viewed the same way? Should that tool be available?


Actually, I blame the individual when they misuse their (often legally) owned firearm to murder or hurt others, Setlanta.  I'd rather they didn't have access to those tools as it is obvious they are too dangerous for people to handle, unless they undergo adequate training and are taught discipline.   Toben is seeking to misuse his right to freedom of speech doesn't deserve it.    ::)

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:56pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:55pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:43pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:40pm:
Tobin came second, on all counts.  But....the point is....he used the Law in an attempt to silence others.


As the court did to him?


'Courts' do not initiate action.  They merely hear what is brought before them at the action of others.


The judge initiated action against him for contempt. That was a choice, not something mandated and not what he was there for.


Garbage.  If a Court is confronted with a person who has willfully defied an order of a Court, contempt is a remedy.  Punishment includes imprisonment.

What's your beef with this anyway?


I don't care if people think the holocaust didn't happen, they should be able to hold their erroneous position without being gaoled.

What is your beef?


I think I just explained it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:56pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:16pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   ::)


And if 18c did not exist he would never have been in contempt of court.
Do you agree with his right to espouse his opinion, no matter how odious?


What I consider is immaterial, Setlanta.   Toben showed his contempt for a decision that was made against him.  The court ruled on his actions after his conviction.

I have actually spoken, about 16 years ago to Frederick Toben.  He was a loon then and he is it appears even more of a loon now.   What he believes, like David Irving, runs counter to the established historical record.  He seeks to justify the Holocaust and to therefore rehabilitate Hitler's memory.    ::)


Quote:
I'm sure you are anti-firearm and blame the tool when someone uses one badly. When someone uses another tool, law, should not it be viewed the same way? Should that tool be available?


Actually, I blame the individual when they misuse their (often legally) owned firearm to murder or hurt others, Setlanta.  I'd rather they didn't have access to those tools as it is obvious they are too dangerous for people to handle, unless they undergo adequate training and are taught discipline.   Toben is seeking to misuse his right to freedom of speech doesn't deserve it.    ::)


Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:05pm
What is IITL?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:10pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:05pm:
What is IITL?


IITL

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:11pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:53pm:
Here's an analogy you might prefer.  As a GMod, you warn a Member not to do something.  Said Member defies you.  You ban.

Why did you ban?  Who initiated the ban?


Setanta?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:11pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:53pm:
Here's an analogy you might prefer.  As a GMod, you warn a Member not to do something.  Said Member defies you.  You ban.

Why did you ban?  Who initiated the ban?


Setanta?


What? Lay out your case.

edit: OK. I see. But if I made an erroneous decision in telling them to STFU in the first place? That is what the court did.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:36pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)


Jewish is both a people and a religion. Toben is a Jewish name.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:39pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:11pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:53pm:
Here's an analogy you might prefer.  As a GMod, you warn a Member not to do something.  Said Member defies you.  You ban.

Why did you ban?  Who initiated the ban?


Setanta?


What? Lay out your case.

edit: OK. I see. But if I made an erroneous decision in telling them to STFU in the first place? That is what the court did.


No.  Read the bloody links.  To stay with the analogy....an appeal was made to FD who dismissed it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:41pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)


Jewish is both a people and a religion. Toben is a Jewish name.


Do you extend the same wide interpretation to Islam?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:42pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:41pm:
Do you extend the same wide interpretation to Islam?


Why would I?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:45pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:39pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:11pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:53pm:
Here's an analogy you might prefer.  As a GMod, you warn a Member not to do something.  Said Member defies you.  You ban.

Why did you ban?  Who initiated the ban?


Setanta?


What? Lay out your case.

edit: OK. I see. But if I made an erroneous decision in telling them to STFU in the first place? That is what the court did.


No.  Read the bloody links.  To stay with the analogy....an appeal was made to FD who dismissed it.


I understand that, it's the contempt on 18c I disagree with. It shouldn't be punishable to hold and espouse an opinion if it does not incite harm to others.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:48pm
It's akin to blasphemy laws.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:53pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:42pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:41pm:
Do you extend the same wide interpretation to Islam?


Why would I?


To be consistent, I suppose.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:56pm

Quote:
....it's the contempt on 18c I disagree with.


Phaaaaaaaarrrk.  You still have not read the links.  Analogy ~ I was banned by you because I defied your ruling/order/edict.  I appealed to FD who dismissed the appeal.

What was I banned for?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:05pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:53pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:42pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:41pm:
Do you extend the same wide interpretation to Islam?


Why would I?


To be consistent, I suppose.


It's not a nation, it encompasses many ethnic groups, as does Christianity it is a religion. There are Jewish people and Jewish people that are Jewish. Are there Islamic people that are Islamic and may also follow Islam?


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:09pm

Quote:
There are Jewish people and Jewish people that are Jewish.


:o

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:38pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)


Jewish is both a people and a religion. Toben is a Jewish name.


Who cares?  He was found to be in contempt of a court decision which was held against him.  He suffered the correct penalty according to the court.  If he had not been so contemptuous of the court, he wouldn't have been imprisoned.  QED.   ::)

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:49pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:38pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)


Jewish is both a people and a religion. Toben is a Jewish name.


Who cares?  He was found to be in contempt of a court decision which was held against him.  He suffered the correct penalty according to the court.  If he had not been so contemptuous of the court, he wouldn't have been imprisoned.  QED.   ::)


A law should not be in place that tells you what you should think and talk about.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:51pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:38pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)


Jewish is both a people and a religion. Toben is a Jewish name.


Who cares?  He was found to be in contempt of a court decision which was held against him.  He suffered the correct penalty according to the court.  If he had not been so contemptuous of the court, he wouldn't have been imprisoned.  QED.   ::)


A law should not be in place that tells you what you should think and talk about.



.....and yet, blokes are being jailed in Australia for doing exactly that.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:53pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:51pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:38pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)


Jewish is both a people and a religion. Toben is a Jewish name.


Who cares?  He was found to be in contempt of a court decision which was held against him.  He suffered the correct penalty according to the court.  If he had not been so contemptuous of the court, he wouldn't have been imprisoned.  QED.   ::)


A law should not be in place that tells you what you should think and talk about.



.....and yet, blokes are being jailed in Australia for doing exactly that.


Yes for the equivalent of blasphemy.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:56pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:53pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:51pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:38pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)


Jewish is both a people and a religion. Toben is a Jewish name.


Who cares?  He was found to be in contempt of a court decision which was held against him.  He suffered the correct penalty according to the court.  If he had not been so contemptuous of the court, he wouldn't have been imprisoned.  QED.   ::)


A law should not be in place that tells you what you should think and talk about.



.....and yet, blokes are being jailed in Australia for doing exactly that.


Yes for the equivalent of blasphemy.



No.  If you and I have a discussion about planning a terrorist act............??????

;)

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:58pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:56pm:
No.  If you and I have a discussion about planning a terrorist act............??????

;)


You'll have to give me more info, times, places, names...

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 12th, 2016 at 12:13am

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:58pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:56pm:
No.  If you and I have a discussion about planning a terrorist act............??????

;)


You'll have to give me more info, times, places, names...


This is what you said:


Quote:
A law should not be in place that tells you what you should think and talk about.


Yeas....and do you 'get' the point that even in Australia, no-one is free to discuss/plan what they like because Laws impose limits.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 12th, 2016 at 12:47am

Aussie wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 12:13am:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:58pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:56pm:
No.  If you and I have a discussion about planning a terrorist act............??????

;)


You'll have to give me more info, times, places, names...


This is what you said:


Quote:
A law should not be in place that tells you what you should think and talk about.


Yeas....and do you 'get' the point that even in Australia, no-one is free to discuss/plan what they like because Laws impose limits.


Those limits I mentioned before?

Edit: I'm off but I'll say limits should be there to protect people from harm, not hurt feelings.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:21am

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:11pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:53pm:
Here's an analogy you might prefer.  As a GMod, you warn a Member not to do something.  Said Member defies you.  You ban.

Why did you ban?  Who initiated the ban?


Setanta?


Aussie this would have to be the stupidest analogy you could have come up with. Said member would be banned for doing whatever it is they did to defy the mods - analogous to Toben denying the holocaust.

To bring it home for you, suppose we implemented a rule against denying the holocaust. A person denied the holocaust. We told them to stop. They defied us, and continued denying the holocaust. Would you seriously argue that said member was not banned for denying the holocaust? Or would common sense kick in? Think before answering.

No matter how desperately you wanted to support the ban on holocaust denial by pretending it was not the cause of the ban, no amount of BS would separate the outcome from the cause. You have your blinkers on Aussie, but that doesn't make everyone else equally blind.


Quote:
Oh!  More moving of the goal posts!

I've given you links to the core cases, freediver.   You cannot manipulate them.


I am still asking your opinion, just like before. You are still afraid to offer your opinion, just like before. Are you afraid to think for yourself Aussie, in case you prove yourself wrong? What do you think caused the court order? Last time you produced evidence, it turned out that it directly supported what I was saying on the matter. No wonder you will not even quote your own evidence now. You would have to read it first, and even worse, understand what it is saying.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:49am
what was he jailed for FD?

not the imaginary reason, but the reason stated in the court files?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:56am

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:21am:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:11pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:53pm:
Here's an analogy you might prefer.  As a GMod, you warn a Member not to do something.  Said Member defies you.  You ban.

Why did you ban?  Who initiated the ban?


Setanta?


Aussie this would have to be the stupidest analogy you could have come up with. Said member would be banned for doing whatever it is they did to defy the mods - analogous to Toben denying the holocaust.

To bring it home for you, suppose we implemented a rule against denying the holocaust. A person denied the holocaust. We told them to stop. They defied us, and continued denying the holocaust. Would you seriously argue that said member was not banned for denying the holocaust? Or would common sense kick in? Think before answering.

No matter how desperately you wanted to support the ban on holocaust denial by pretending it was not the cause of the ban, no amount of BS would separate the outcome from the cause. You have your blinkers on Aussie, but that doesn't make everyone else equally blind.


Quote:
Oh!  More moving of the goal posts!

I've given you links to the core cases, freediver.   You cannot manipulate them.


I am still asking your opinion, just like before. You are still afraid to offer your opinion, just like before. Are you afraid to think for yourself Aussie, in case you prove yourself wrong? What do you think caused the court order? Last time you produced evidence, it turned out that it directly supported what I was saying on the matter. No wonder you will not even quote your own evidence now. You would have to read it first, and even worse, understand what it is saying.


Try not to be a smart arse FD, you are not very good at it.  What you are very good at is conflating what I say, so I not going to answer your question yet again and I'll simply refer you to the links I have posted.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Bojack Horseman on Dec 12th, 2016 at 11:24am
He should at least be locked up for stupidity.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Mr Hammer on Dec 12th, 2016 at 11:30am

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 11:24am:
He should at least be locked up for stupidity.
Most of the world would be in the can. Peeca would be on death row.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by longweekend58 on Dec 12th, 2016 at 12:13pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:38pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)


Jewish is both a people and a religion. Toben is a Jewish name.


Who cares?  He was found to be in contempt of a court decision which was held against him.  He suffered the correct penalty according to the court.  If he had not been so contemptuous of the court, he wouldn't have been imprisoned.  QED.   ::)


A law should not be in place that tells you what you should think and talk about.


And there isnt. Tobin was jailed for contempt of court. I had the displeasure many years ago to communicate with him and felt dirty ever since.

He has his right to an opinion. He does not have the right to disagree with a court and get away with it. And he didnt.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by longweekend58 on Dec 12th, 2016 at 12:18pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 11:30am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 11:24am:
He should at least be locked up for stupidity.
Most of the world would be in the can. Peeca would be on death row.


And Hillary would be PResident-elect having won every college vote. After all, post-election investigations have only uncovered 4 people with an IQ above 100 that voted for Trump.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:03pm
Interesting discussion. Interesting mainly because I think Aussie has proven himself the best at "out-FDing" FD. Its good how once in a while FD gets a taste of how annoying his style of debating can be. If anyone's interested in a sample - here's FD attempting to argue how a pro-democracy rally must really be anti-democracy. From about half way down page 6 onwards:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390857768.

Its uncanny how similar Aussie and FD actually are.

Also this is a stupid semantic argument. You are both right, and both wrong. He was gaoled for contempt of court because he refused to desist from denying the holocaust. Its not one or the other, its both. Semantically, 'contempt of court' can be cited as the "real" reason without attributing any blame to his original act (denying the holocaust), but it doesn't pass the common sense test. Similarly, it is wrong to say he was only gaoled for the act of denying the holocaust without acknowledging contempt of court in and of itself a sufficient reason for incarceration (irrespective of the origin of the contempt).

Its just silly semantics, and everyone should all just settle for "he was gaoled for contempt of court - which came about because of his refusal to desist from denying the holocaust". Since while ever FD insists on leaving out 'contempt of court' in his interpretation of the reason he was gaoled, Aussie will simply cite the court transcript referring to the contempt - ad infinitum till the cows come home.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Mr Hammer on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:08pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:03pm:
Interesting discussion. Interesting mainly because I think Aussie has proven himself the best at "out-FDing" FD. Its good how once in a while FD gets a taste of how annoying his style of debating can be. If anyone's interested in a sample - here's FD attempting to argue how a pro-democracy rally must really be anti-democracy. From about half way down page 6 onwards:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390857768.

Its uncanny how similar Aussie and FD actually are.

Also this is a stupid semantic argument. You are both right, and both wrong. He was gaoled for contempt of court because he refused to desist from denying the holocaust. Its not one or the other, its both. Semantically, 'contempt of court' can be cited as the "real" reason without attributing any blame to his original act (denying the holocaust), but it doesn't pass the common sense test. Similarly, it is wrong to say he was only gaoled for the act of denying the holocaust without acknowledging contempt of court in and of itself a sufficient reason for incarceration (irrespective of the origin of the contempt).

Its just silly semantics, and everyone should all just settle for "he was gaoled for contempt of court - which came about because of his refusal to desist from denying the holocaust". Since while ever FD insists on leaving out 'contempt of court' in his interpretation of the reason he was gaoled, Aussie will simply cite the court transcript referring to the contempt - ad infinitum till the cows come home.
.....which came about because of his refusal to desist from denying the holocaust".


......You will believe what we tell you or you are going to jail???? >:( >:( >:(

Very authoritarian. So much for free thought and opinion. So now people  feel they have a right to mould others brains. Now that is absolute power!!!

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:49pm
You are missing two key points here Gandalf.

1) Aussie claimed Toben was not jailed for denying the holocaust, blatant lie, scurrilous etc. I did not make any of the opposite "semantic" arguments you attributed to me.

2) The whole point of Aussie's apologetics, as well as the other flavours of apologetics from John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross etc (see opening post) is to distance 18c from the jailing of Toben by insisting the jailing of Toben has no freedom of speech implications. John Smith had a rather stupid suggestion that we respond by trying to get rid of contempt of court legislation rather than 18c (again, see the opening post for quotes). Does that seem like a purely semantic argument to you? Or just a particularly stupid one, intended to facilitate the erosion of freedom of speech?

This is why Aussie will not answer simple questions like what was the cause of the court order, because the answer would destroy the real (ie, not just semantic) argument he is making. You are falsely projecting intelligence onto what they are saying, but it really is that stupid. They really do think (or wish to argue, in defence of 18c) that Toben's jailing had nothing to do with 18c and freedom of speech.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 12th, 2016 at 2:21pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:03pm:
Interesting discussion. Interesting mainly because I think Aussie has proven himself the best at "out-FDing" FD. Its good how once in a while FD gets a taste of how annoying his style of debating can be. If anyone's interested in a sample - here's FD attempting to argue how a pro-democracy rally must really be anti-democracy. From about half way down page 6 onwards:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390857768.

Its uncanny how similar Aussie and FD actually are.

Also this is a stupid semantic argument. You are both right, and both wrong. He was gaoled for contempt of court because he refused to desist from denying the holocaust. Its not one or the other, its both. Semantically, 'contempt of court' can be cited as the "real" reason without attributing any blame to his original act (denying the holocaust), but it doesn't pass the common sense test. Similarly, it is wrong to say he was only gaoled for the act of denying the holocaust without acknowledging contempt of court in and of itself a sufficient reason for incarceration (irrespective of the origin of the contempt).

Its just silly semantics, and everyone should all just settle for "he was gaoled for contempt of court - which came about because of his refusal to desist from denying the holocaust". Since while ever FD insists on leaving out 'contempt of court' in his interpretation of the reason he was gaoled, Aussie will simply cite the court transcript referring to the contempt - ad infinitum till the cows come home.


Ah, but that is what I said, and it was ignored by FD:


Quote:
There you go yet again with deceptive language.  He was jailed for Contempt of Court.  His contempt was defiance of a Court Order.  The Court Order was that he cease distributing holocaust denial material.  He then distributed that material.  Ergo, he was not jailed for denying the holocaust.


I agree the distinction is a fine one, but it is nonetheless a distinction.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Gnads on Dec 12th, 2016 at 2:36pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:16pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
They are direct quotes Aussie. Do you disagree with yourself now?


No, I stand by every word I said....and not by every word you have attempted to verbal me with.


As I do.  Toben was convicted of contempt of court, not Section 18c...   ::)


And if 18c did not exist he would never have been in contempt of court.
Do you agree with his right to espouse his opinion, no matter how odious?

I'm sure you are anti-firearm and blame the tool when someone uses one badly. When someone uses another tool, law, should not it be viewed the same way? Should that tool be available?



clapping.jpg (5 KB | 201 )

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 12th, 2016 at 3:54pm

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:49pm:
John Smith had a rather stupid suggestion that we respond by trying to get rid of contempt of court legislation rather than 18c (again, see the opening post for quotes)



simply highlighting how stupid your idea is. You want to ban 18c because it resulted in someone going to jail who you believe shouldn't have. Continue that logic through to other laws and you'll see how stupid that train of thought is.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 12th, 2016 at 4:10pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:38pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:36pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Why would you gaol a loon? A Jewish loon at that. The man has a right to say he doesn't believe history. We don't gaol IITL for moon-landing denial, we see him for what he is.


I have no idea as to Toben's religion.  As for gaoling a loon, it is obvious he has shown repeated contempt for the court, as the court is limited in the punishments it can hand out, gaoling is one that would teach him a lesson?    ::)


Jewish is both a people and a religion. Toben is a Jewish name.


Who cares?  He was found to be in contempt of a court decision which was held against him.  He suffered the correct penalty according to the court.  If he had not been so contemptuous of the court, he wouldn't have been imprisoned.  QED.   ::)


A law should not be in place that tells you what you should think and talk about.



Really?  Yet there are many such laws, Setlanta.  Have you forgotten Libel, Slander, Blasphemy and other similar laws?  They all exist and they state what you can talk about.  No law can determine what you think about though.  Toben is free to think what he likes.  He can even discuss it privately.  What he isn't allowed to do is state his anti-Holocaust lies in public.   ::)

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 12th, 2016 at 4:39pm
Thing is you can't go to jail under 18C

Only two instances can a person be imprisoned under the Racial Discrimination Act


Quote:
27(2)

(a) refuse to employ another person; or

(b) dismiss, or threaten to dismiss, another person from the other person’s employment; or

(c) prejudice, or threaten to prejudice, another person in the other person’s employment; or

(d)  intimidate or coerce, or impose any pecuniary or other penalty upon, another person;

by reason that the other person:

(e)  has made, or proposes to make, a complaint under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986; or

(f)  has furnished, or proposes to furnish, any information or documents to a person exercising or performing any powers or functions under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986; or

(g)  has attended, or proposes to attend, a conference held under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986.

Penalty for an offence against subsection (2):

(a)  in the case of a natural person—25 penalty units or imprisonment for 3 months, or both



Quote:
27F

A person who is, or has at any time been, the Commissioner, a member of the Commission or a member of the staff assisting the Commission or is, or has at any time been, authorised to perform or exercise any function or power of the Commission or the Commissioner or any function or power on behalf of the Commission or the Commissioner, being a function or power conferred on the Commission or on the Commissioner under this Act, shall not, either directly or indirectly:

(a)  make a record of, or divulge or communicate to any person, any information relating to the affairs of another person acquired by the first‑mentioned person by reason of that person’s office or employment under or for the purpose of this Act or by reason of that person being or having been so authorised;

or

(b)  make use of any such information as is mentioned in paragraph (a); or

(c)  produce to any person a document relating to the affairs of another person furnished for the purposes of this Act.

Penalty:  50 penalty units or imprisonment for 1 year, or both.



Toben however was given a specific instruction by the court to stop what he was doing. He decided to ignore that directive and was locked up. A clear case of contempt of court. Toben unreservedly apologised for his breaches of court orders and said he would not withdraw his apology as he had in the past.

It wasn't the first time he was locked up. In 1998 he was imprisoned for denying the Holocaust but that happened in Germany and they kinda don't like it when you say it didn't happen. Still a sensitive subject for them.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by longweekend58 on Dec 12th, 2016 at 4:56pm

Raven wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 4:39pm:
Thing is you can't go to jail under 18C

Only two instances can a person be imprisoned under the Racial Discrimination Act


Quote:
27(2)

(a) refuse to employ another person; or

(b) dismiss, or threaten to dismiss, another person from the other person’s employment; or

(c) prejudice, or threaten to prejudice, another person in the other person’s employment; or

(d)  intimidate or coerce, or impose any pecuniary or other penalty upon, another person;

by reason that the other person:

(e)  has made, or proposes to make, a complaint under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986; or

(f)  has furnished, or proposes to furnish, any information or documents to a person exercising or performing any powers or functions under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986; or

(g)  has attended, or proposes to attend, a conference held under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986.

Penalty for an offence against subsection (2):

(a)  in the case of a natural person—25 penalty units or imprisonment for 3 months, or both


[quote]27F

A person who is, or has at any time been, the Commissioner, a member of the Commission or a member of the staff assisting the Commission or is, or has at any time been, authorised to perform or exercise any function or power of the Commission or the Commissioner or any function or power on behalf of the Commission or the Commissioner, being a function or power conferred on the Commission or on the Commissioner under this Act, shall not, either directly or indirectly:

(a)  make a record of, or divulge or communicate to any person, any information relating to the affairs of another person acquired by the first‑mentioned person by reason of that person’s office or employment under or for the purpose of this Act or by reason of that person being or having been so authorised;

or

(b)  make use of any such information as is mentioned in paragraph (a); or

(c)  produce to any person a document relating to the affairs of another person furnished for the purposes of this Act.

Penalty:  50 penalty units or imprisonment for 1 year, or both.



Toben however was given a specific instruction by the court to stop what he was doing. He decided to ignore that directive and was locked up. A clear case of contempt of court. Toben unreservedly apologised for his breaches of court orders and said he would not withdraw his apology as he had in the past.

It wasn't the first time he was locked up. In 1998 he was imprisoned for denying the Holocaust but that happened in Germany and they kinda don't like it when you say it didn't happen. Still a sensitive subject for them.[/quote]

Part of Germany's response to Nazism is to fully face it and teach about it in schools. No denial, no soft-pedalling. And you have to agree it has worked. But whether or not you think the law is right, it IS the law there about denial of the Holocaust just as there are laws in Thailand about insulting the King (which is very easy to do) or offending Islam in muslim countries (also easy to do).   You obey them or pay the price.

Right to Speak does not preclude consequences.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 12th, 2016 at 5:03pm

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Raven wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 4:39pm:
Thing is you can't go to jail under 18C

Only two instances can a person be imprisoned under the Racial Discrimination Act


Quote:
27(2)

(a) refuse to employ another person; or

(b) dismiss, or threaten to dismiss, another person from the other person’s employment; or

(c) prejudice, or threaten to prejudice, another person in the other person’s employment; or

(d)  intimidate or coerce, or impose any pecuniary or other penalty upon, another person;

by reason that the other person:

(e)  has made, or proposes to make, a complaint under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986; or

(f)  has furnished, or proposes to furnish, any information or documents to a person exercising or performing any powers or functions under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986; or

(g)  has attended, or proposes to attend, a conference held under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986.

Penalty for an offence against subsection (2):

(a)  in the case of a natural person—25 penalty units or imprisonment for 3 months, or both


[quote]27F

A person who is, or has at any time been, the Commissioner, a member of the Commission or a member of the staff assisting the Commission or is, or has at any time been, authorised to perform or exercise any function or power of the Commission or the Commissioner or any function or power on behalf of the Commission or the Commissioner, being a function or power conferred on the Commission or on the Commissioner under this Act, shall not, either directly or indirectly:

(a)  make a record of, or divulge or communicate to any person, any information relating to the affairs of another person acquired by the first‑mentioned person by reason of that person’s office or employment under or for the purpose of this Act or by reason of that person being or having been so authorised;

or

(b)  make use of any such information as is mentioned in paragraph (a); or

(c)  produce to any person a document relating to the affairs of another person furnished for the purposes of this Act.

Penalty:  50 penalty units or imprisonment for 1 year, or both.



Toben however was given a specific instruction by the court to stop what he was doing. He decided to ignore that directive and was locked up. A clear case of contempt of court. Toben unreservedly apologised for his breaches of court orders and said he would not withdraw his apology as he had in the past.

It wasn't the first time he was locked up. In 1998 he was imprisoned for denying the Holocaust but that happened in Germany and they kinda don't like it when you say it didn't happen. Still a sensitive subject for them.


Part of Germany's response to Nazism is to fully face it and teach about it in schools. No denial, no soft-pedalling. And you have to agree it has worked. But whether or not you think the law is right, it IS the law there about denial of the Holocaust just as there are laws in Thailand about insulting the King (which is very easy to do) or offending Islam in muslim countries (also easy to do).   You obey them or pay the price.

Right to Speak does not preclude consequences.[/quote]

Absolutely correct the right of free speech does not mean the right to freedom from consequence.

You are free to say what you want but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say.

It is a concept many can't grasp.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by longweekend58 on Dec 12th, 2016 at 5:12pm

Raven wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 5:03pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Raven wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 4:39pm:
Thing is you can't go to jail under 18C

Only two instances can a person be imprisoned under the Racial Discrimination Act


Quote:
27(2)

(a) refuse to employ another person; or

(b) dismiss, or threaten to dismiss, another person from the other person’s employment; or

(c) prejudice, or threaten to prejudice, another person in the other person’s employment; or

(d)  intimidate or coerce, or impose any pecuniary or other penalty upon, another person;

by reason that the other person:

(e)  has made, or proposes to make, a complaint under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986; or

(f)  has furnished, or proposes to furnish, any information or documents to a person exercising or performing any powers or functions under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986; or

(g)  has attended, or proposes to attend, a conference held under this Act or the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986.

Penalty for an offence against subsection (2):

(a)  in the case of a natural person—25 penalty units or imprisonment for 3 months, or both


[quote]27F

A person who is, or has at any time been, the Commissioner, a member of the Commission or a member of the staff assisting the Commission or is, or has at any time been, authorised to perform or exercise any function or power of the Commission or the Commissioner or any function or power on behalf of the Commission or the Commissioner, being a function or power conferred on the Commission or on the Commissioner under this Act, shall not, either directly or indirectly:

(a)  make a record of, or divulge or communicate to any person, any information relating to the affairs of another person acquired by the first‑mentioned person by reason of that person’s office or employment under or for the purpose of this Act or by reason of that person being or having been so authorised;

or

(b)  make use of any such information as is mentioned in paragraph (a); or

(c)  produce to any person a document relating to the affairs of another person furnished for the purposes of this Act.

Penalty:  50 penalty units or imprisonment for 1 year, or both.



Toben however was given a specific instruction by the court to stop what he was doing. He decided to ignore that directive and was locked up. A clear case of contempt of court. Toben unreservedly apologised for his breaches of court orders and said he would not withdraw his apology as he had in the past.

It wasn't the first time he was locked up. In 1998 he was imprisoned for denying the Holocaust but that happened in Germany and they kinda don't like it when you say it didn't happen. Still a sensitive subject for them.


Part of Germany's response to Nazism is to fully face it and teach about it in schools. No denial, no soft-pedalling. And you have to agree it has worked. But whether or not you think the law is right, it IS the law there about denial of the Holocaust just as there are laws in Thailand about insulting the King (which is very easy to do) or offending Islam in muslim countries (also easy to do).   You obey them or pay the price.

Right to Speak does not preclude consequences.


Absolutely correct the right of free speech does not mean the right to freedom from consequence.

You are free to say what you want but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say.

It is a concept many can't grasp. [/quote]


It is part of the modern aversion to Responsibility. Each Right comes with a matching Responsibility. Many are very loud on the former but silent on the latter.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 12th, 2016 at 5:43pm

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:49pm:
Aussie claimed Toben was not jailed for denying the holocaust


technically he wasn't - he was gaoled for contempt of court. See how this game is played FD? I could play this till Kingdom come if I really want to - as indeed Aussie seems determined to do. Aussie of course is ignoring common sense - he absolutely was gaoled as a result of him denying the holocaust, even if you can make the semantic argument that he wasn't gaoled for denying the holocaust. Thats where Aussie is coming from - silly semantics.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 12th, 2016 at 5:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 5:43pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:49pm:
Aussie claimed Toben was not jailed for denying the holocaust


technically he wasn't - he was gaoled for contempt of court. See how this game is played FD? I could play this till Kingdom come if I really want to - as indeed Aussie seems determined to do. Aussie of course is ignoring common sense - he absolutely was gaoled as a result of him denying the holocaust, even if you can make the semantic argument that he wasn't gaoled for denying the holocaust. Thats where Aussie is coming from - silly semantics.


Yet I posted this on the original Thread:


Quote:
There you go yet again with deceptive language.  He was jailed for Contempt of Court.  His contempt was defiance of a Court Order.  The Court Order was that he cease distributing holocaust denial material.  He then distributed that material.  Ergo, he was not jailed for denying the holocaust


FD took issue with even that.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by longweekend58 on Dec 12th, 2016 at 6:17pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 5:43pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:49pm:
Aussie claimed Toben was not jailed for denying the holocaust


technically he wasn't - he was gaoled for contempt of court. See how this game is played FD? I could play this till Kingdom come if I really want to - as indeed Aussie seems determined to do. Aussie of course is ignoring common sense - he absolutely was gaoled as a result of him denying the holocaust, even if you can make the semantic argument that he wasn't gaoled for denying the holocaust. Thats where Aussie is coming from - silly semantics.



Sounds like peccahead and his pedantry super-powers, pretending that two identical words are not and that this argument is not in effect, exactly the same from both people.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2016 at 6:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 5:43pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:49pm:
Aussie claimed Toben was not jailed for denying the holocaust


technically he wasn't - he was gaoled for contempt of court. See how this game is played FD? I could play this till Kingdom come if I really want to - as indeed Aussie seems determined to do. Aussie of course is ignoring common sense - he absolutely was gaoled as a result of him denying the holocaust, even if you can make the semantic argument that he wasn't gaoled for denying the holocaust. Thats where Aussie is coming from - silly semantics.


What about the conclusion that 18c does not infringe on freedom of speech because it was not the cause of his jailing? Is that still semantics Gandalf?

What about insisting that it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust? Still technically correct? Are you willing to defend what Aussie actually said, or are you simply determined to rescue the idiocy of a fellow apologist with your "both wrong and both right" nonsense?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 12th, 2016 at 6:50pm

Quote:
What about insisting that it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust? Still technically correct?


I don't want Gandalf to get caught up in this. Those are  my words, not his, and it is me who should account for them, not him.

What I said was an accurate description at the time I used them in the context I used them.  As is ever your want, you now take them out of context, place them in isolation or in a different context, and laughingly point your haughty finger.

That is disingenuous.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:11pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 6:50pm:

Quote:
What about insisting that it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust? Still technically correct?


I don't want Gandalf to get caught up in this. Those are  my words, not his, and it is me who should account for them, not him.

What I said was an accurate description at the time I used them in the context I used them.  As is ever your want, you now take them out of context, place them in isolation or in a different context, and laughingly point your haughty finger.

That is disingenuous.


I laughingly point my haughty finger at you Aussie while you try to squirm your way out of this and play tag team apologetics with Gandalf. Either take it back or own it. The context is still there for all to see. It is the same context we see here - you trying to distance the jailing of a fellow Australian for having the wrong opinion from the legislation that deprives us all of freedom of speech.

BTW, have you decided whether to allow yourself an opinion on what was the cause of the court order?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:26pm

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:11pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 6:50pm:

Quote:
What about insisting that it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust? Still technically correct?


I don't want Gandalf to get caught up in this. Those are  my words, not his, and it is me who should account for them, not him.

What I said was an accurate description at the time I used them in the context I used them.  As is ever your want, you now take them out of context, place them in isolation or in a different context, and laughingly point your haughty finger.

That is disingenuous.


I laughingly point my haughty finger at you Aussie while you try to squirm your way out of this and play tag team apologetics with Gandalf. Either take it back or own it. The context is still there for all to see. It is the same context we see here - you trying to distance the jailing of a fellow Australian for having the wrong opinion from the legislation that deprives us all of freedom of speech.

BTW, have you decided whether to allow yourself an opinion on what was the cause of the court order?


As I have said many times here, despite your silly tantrums, I own what I say and I said this:


Quote:
There you go yet again with deceptive language.  He was jailed for Contempt of Court.  His contempt was defiance of a Court Order.  The Court Order was that he cease distributing holocaust denial material.  He then distributed that material.  Ergo, he was not jailed for denying the holocaust.


As for my opinion as to the cause of the Court order...it accords with what is set out in the links.



Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2016 at 9:35pm
What about this Aussie? Do you also stand by this?


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:47am:

freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 11:41am:
Gerald Fredrick Töben (director and founder of the Adelaide Institute) has been jailed in South Australia, as well as the UK and Germany for denying the holocaust. This is one of the most ludicrous uses of the law in a supposedly free society - preventing people from questioning historical facts.


I am not here to defend any European Law.  18C/D has nothing to do with that.  And, it is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind on your part freediver to assert he was jailed in SA for denying the holocaust. 


Did I tell a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind, and then follow it up by 'disingenuously' quoting you saying so?

Do you still think 18c doesn't preclude anyone from saying anything? Do you agree with Brian Ross that we should target contempt of court legislation rather than 18c if we want to stop people being jailed for their opinion?

Why do you think that the contents of the court order are irrelevant to Toben's fate?


Quote:
As for my opinion as to the cause of the Court order...it accords with what is set out in the links.


Have you read them this time Aussie? Last time I don't think you even read the bits you copied and pasted.


Aussie wrote on Dec 4th, 2016 at 8:38am:
His contempt was defiance of a Court Order.  The Court Order was that he cease distributing holocaust denial material.  He then distributed that material.  Ergo, he was not jailed for denying the holocaust.


What about this one Aussie? Stand by it also, or have I taken it out of context?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 13th, 2016 at 7:59am
The problem is that I gave you credit as someone who did not need everything spelled out in minutia.  I was wrong, hence it finally became necessary to be a semantic pedant and I posted:


Quote:
There you go yet again with deceptive language.  He was jailed for Contempt of Court.  His contempt was defiance of a Court Order.  The Court Order was that he cease distributing holocaust denial material.  He then distributed that material.  Ergo, he was not jailed for denying the holocaust.





Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 13th, 2016 at 12:52pm
Freediver you cannot be jailed under 18c

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 13th, 2016 at 2:59pm
Once more Aussie I pointedly haught my laughing finger at you. You must be haugting pretty bad right now.


Quote:
The problem is that I gave you credit as someone who did not need everything spelled out in minutia.


Is that what you mean by a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind? What about the other quotes I provided above? Do you also stand by them, or are you backpedaling to the point where you will only acknowledge one of your previous posts on the issue? Wise move Aussie. I would not want that idiocy on my record either.


Quote:
Freediver you cannot be jailed under 18c


As Toben illustrates, you can be jailed if the HREOC escalates the matter to the federal court. Saying you cannot be jailed on the assumption you will agree to self censor in compliance with 18c does not meet the common sense test. Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust in contravention of 18c. 18c means you can now be jailed for exercising your fundamental human rights.

Do you support that Raven, or just offer idiotic excuses?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:08pm

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:22pm

Quote:
18c means you can now be jailed for exercising your fundamental human rights.


Can you show us the legislation than outlines the penalties, FD?

Cheers.


Quote:
He has served three jail sentences: in 1999 for seven months in Germany under Section 130 “defaming the memory of the dead”; in 2008 for 50 days in the United Kingdom when he was transiting through Heathrow and the Germans wanted him under the European Arrest Warrant, which the court declared invalid; in 2009 for three months in South Australia for contempt of court, for which he apologized to the court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Fredrick_T%C3%B6ben

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:26pm

Quote:
Do you also stand by them...


You've asked that many times, and each time, I have told you I stand by my every word.

Karnal asked you a question.  Will there be an answer 'in the fullness of time?'  Or, will you answer him as quickly as I answer you?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:37pm

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 6:42pm:
What about the conclusion that 18c does not infringe on freedom of speech because it was not the cause of his jailing? Is that still semantics Gandalf?


Did Aussie say that? I haven't seen that quote. Obviously 18c infringes upon freedom of speech when it is used to justify the outright banning of holocaust denial under the guise of 'racial vilification' - as our first law officer himself insists it can. But the funniest thing here is that I was having a similar argument with you over 2 years ago - and it was you who was siding with the "18c doesn't forbid holocaust denial" argument. So I'm glad you've turned around on the subject - I think I'll take the credit for that.


Quote:
What about insisting that it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust? Still technically correct? Are you willing to defend what Aussie actually said, or are you simply determined to rescue the idiocy of a fellow apologist with your "both wrong and both right" nonsense?


I've already said Aussie's argument doesn't pass the common sense test and that he is playing silly semantic games, like you always do. Its almost as if he is your protege. I'm hardly defending him FD.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:41pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:26pm:

Quote:
Do you also stand by them...


You've asked that many times, and each time, I have told you I stand by my every word.

Karnal asked you a question.  Will there be an answer 'in the fullness of time?'  Or, will you answer him as quickly as I answer you?


I think FD prefers to discuss sustainable fishing and carbon taxes, Aussie.

We'll have to ask him a question about that.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:45pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 3:37pm:
But the funniest thing here is that I was having a similar argument with you over 2 years ago - and it was you who was siding with the "18c doesn't forbid holocaust denial" argument. So I'm glad you've turned around on the subject - I think I'll take the credit for that.


Impossible. FD is never influenced by the Muselman, G.

Apart from Abu.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by red baron on Dec 13th, 2016 at 4:58pm
By gaoling him you make him some sort of martyr for extremist right idiots...when in fact all he  is an ill informed wanker

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 13th, 2016 at 5:02pm

red baron wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 4:58pm:
By gaoling him you make him some sort of martyr for extremist right idiots...


Now now, Red, the only person standing up for this chap is FD.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by red baron on Dec 13th, 2016 at 5:10pm
I hate racists but I hate the muzzling of free speech even more. Our nation went to war with Germany over just such principles.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 13th, 2016 at 5:13pm

red baron wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 5:10pm:
I hate racists but I hate the muzzling of free speech even more. Our nation went to war with Germany over just such principles.


Yes, but now we're fighting for the human right to spread lies, fear and hate.

That's the difference, Red.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 13th, 2016 at 5:44pm

red baron wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 4:58pm:
By gaoling him you make him some sort of martyr for extremist right idiots...when in fact all he  is an ill informed wanker


Whats notable about this case is how little impact it has had on the free speech debate. Who here even heard of Toben before reading this discussion? Not exactly martyrdom material is he? And the proof in the pudding is when the top legal officer himself can casually guarantee to the national press that holocaust denial will always be considered a crime under the racial discrimination act - without so much as a raised eyebrow from the media or anywhere else in the public sphere.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 13th, 2016 at 7:15pm

Quote:
Whats notable about this case is how little impact it has had on the free speech debate. Who here even heard of Toben before reading this discussion? Not exactly martyrdom material is he?


Martyrdom usually implies death Gandalf. He was jailed for three weeks. He is not well known because his cause is unpopular with both sides, so tends to get ignored. No-one wants a Nazi as their champion. Yet that probably makes him the best demonstration of the core principles of freedom of speech, far better than Bolt.

You appear to be implying that his lack of popularity justifies his treatment. Is that the case?


Quote:
Can you show us the legislation than outlines the penalties, FD?


Read the other half of the sentence you quoted Karnal.


Quote:
You've asked that many times, and each time, I have told you I stand by my every word.


No you haven't. You have tried to weasel your way out of them by insisting they were:


Quote:
an accurate description at the time I used them in the context I used them


If that's not backpedaling and weasel words, I don't know what is. Can you tell us what has changed with time and context? Do you think perhaps that in a few weeks time it will no longer be a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind to say that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust"?

Why are you afraid to offer your own opinion on the cause of the court order?


Quote:
Did Aussie say that? I haven't seen that quote.


Check the first page of the 18c thread Gandalf. He was demanding to know how 18c limits what people can say. If that doesn;t convince you, let's ask him and see what sort of tapdancing we get. Aussie, does 18c infringe on freedom of speech?


Quote:
I've already said Aussie's argument doesn't pass the common sense test and that he is playing silly semantic games, like you always do.


What you said was that I was also making a purely semantic argument in this thread. That is not true. You also claimed that Aussie's argument was a purely semantic one. Although he is now loathe to say it (or anything of substance), there is a meaningful argument behind the idiocy, just as with the moronic comments we have seen here from Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross, Karnal etc. They are all something along the lines of "18c does not limit freedom of speech because it was not the cause of Toben's jailing and you cannot quote the specific legislation that lays out the link between what 18c bans and the punishment for ignoring it". His "silly semantic games" have the express purpose of undermining freedom of speech.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 13th, 2016 at 7:36pm

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 7:15pm:
You appear to be implying that his lack of popularity justifies his treatment. Is that the case?


Actually quite the opposite. My observation was made as an indictment to our society.

I think its highly dangerous that our passion for free speech seems to be contingent on how much we agree with the speech. And worse, we are being encouraged by the government who come straight out and tell us its perfectly ok to criminalise a particular historical argument.

What is interesting is we see here people engaging in this debate who were previously disengaged and are shocked that someone was actually gaoled for what amounts to a thought crime. Its good that they are shocked, but bad that they never heard about it before. For some reason this topic of holocaust denial never seems to come up when the discussion of free speech comes up. Especially strange when pro 18c advocates try to reassure the critics by pointing to 18d and assuring them that legitimate, intellectual debate is protected. But in this case it clearly isn't.

Like I said a little while ago, holocaust denial is very much a special category in this whole free speech debate - specifically categorised in the "racial vilification" basket. This is perverse, and people should be railing against it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 13th, 2016 at 7:48pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 7:36pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 7:15pm:
You appear to be implying that his lack of popularity justifies his treatment. Is that the case?


Actually quite the opposite. My observation was made as an indictment to our society.

I think its highly dangerous that our passion for free speech seems to be contingent on how much we agree with the speech. And worse, we are being encouraged by the government who come straight out and tell us its perfectly ok to criminalise a particular historical argument.

What is interesting is we see here people engaging in this debate who were previously disengaged and are shocked that someone was actually gaoled for what amounts to a thought crime. Its good that they are shocked, but bad that they never heard about it before. For some reason this topic of holocaust denial never seems to come up when the discussion of free speech comes up. Especially strange when pro 18c advocates try to reassure the critics by pointing to 18d and assuring them that legitimate, intellectual debate is protected. But in this case it clearly isn't.

Like I said a little while ago, holocaust denial is very much a special category in this whole free speech debate - specifically categorised in the "racial vilification" basket. This is perverse, and people should be railing against it.


Then, the practical remedy lies in your hands and that of FD.  Get on your soapbox at the local Park on the week-end, spruik holocaust denial stuff, and see what happens.....if it is that important to either of you.  I suspect it is not.

My own view is that Tobin was at least vaguely correct given he attempted (and failed) to put some limits on what he was 'denying' but it is not at all near and dear enough to my heart as it seems to be especially to FD, and to a lesser extent to you, Gandalf.

Tobin was jailed for a contempt of Court ~ he acknowledged that is why he was jailed, and he apologised (not for posting holocaust denial material) but for defying the Court Order.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 13th, 2016 at 8:11pm
Did you make a submission on 18c Gandalf?


Quote:
Like I said a little while ago, holocaust denial is very much a special category in this whole free speech debate - specifically categorised in the "racial vilification" basket. This is perverse, and people should be railing against it.


Just like Islamophobia?


Quote:
Then, the practical remedy lies in your hands and that of FD.  Get on your soapbox at the local Park on the week-end, spruik holocaust denial stuff, and see what happens.....if it is that important to either of you.  I suspect it is not.


Just when I thought it could not get any dumber. You don't have to agree with people to support their freedom of speech Aussie.


Quote:
My own view is that Tobin was at least vaguely correct given he attempted (and failed) to put some limits on what he was 'denying' but it is not at all near and dear enough to my heart as it seems to be especially to FD, and to a lesser extent to you, Gandalf.


No-one here gives a f..k whether he was right Aussie. Again, you completely miss the point.

What was the cause of the court order Aussie?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 13th, 2016 at 8:17pm

Quote:
Just when I thought it could not get any dumber. You don't have to agree with people to support their freedom of speech Aussie.


I did not say you had to FD.  What I said was that you could test it all out by spruiking denial material at the Park this week-end.  I could not care less if you agree or not with the subject.  I'm sure you could 'wing' it as part of a very practical social experiment.  It would a good test of your resolve and that of 'Brandis.'

Go on, do it, FD.  Put some substance behind your esoteric rhetoric.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 13th, 2016 at 9:42pm
Are you suggesting that Toben's imprisonment is a figment of our imagination? It took Toben over ten years to end up in jail Aussie. Your suggestion is even stupider than I first thought.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 13th, 2016 at 10:04pm

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 9:42pm:
Are you suggesting that Toben's imprisonment is a figment of our imagination? It took Toben over ten years to end up in jail Aussie. Your suggestion is even stupider than I first thought.


Do you think he should be pardoned?

I'm curious.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 13th, 2016 at 10:11pm
He should have never been brought before the courts in the first place.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 13th, 2016 at 11:02pm

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 10:11pm:
He should have never been brought before the courts in the first place.


Should he be compensated?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 13th, 2016 at 11:04pm

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 9:42pm:
Are you suggesting that Toben's imprisonment is a figment of our imagination?


In some cases, yes.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 14th, 2016 at 6:52am

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 8:11pm:
Just like Islamophobia?


No FD, nothing like Islamophobia. Can you name any historical argument related to Islam that is automatically criminalised as 'racial vilification'? I can't.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:13pm

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 2:59pm:
As Toben illustrates, you can be jailed if the HREOC escalates the matter to the federal court. Saying you cannot be jailed on the assumption you will agree to self censor in compliance with 18c does not meet the common sense test. Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust in contravention of 18c. 18c means you can now be jailed for exercising your fundamental human rights.

Do you support that Raven, or just offer idiotic excuses?


No it doesn't. You are either deliberately misinterpreting how the RDA works or you have no understanding of the law.

It is not a crime to breach 18c. The section says that it is unlawful for a person to do what is set out.

In law the term unlawful does not mean criminal, So while unlawful acts are prohibited by law, they are not a criminal offence under section 18C, which is in Part IIA of the Act. There is no offence under Part IIA of the RDA. There are no criminal sanctions attached to the conduct the Act is targeting. Nothing in the Act makes any form of vilification a criminal offence.

Section 26, which is in Part IV of the Act, says


Quote:
Except as expressly provided by this Part, nothing in this Act makes it an offence to do an act or agree with another person to do an act that is unlawful by reason of a provision of Part II or Part IIA.


Unlawful conduct is not illegal conduct. 'Unlawful' is conduct prohibited by law, an 'offence' is also conduct prohibited by law but at a more serious or higher level. There is a fundamental procedural difference – unlawful acts are pursued by the person or entity who is aggrieved, and illegal acts are pursued by the police in order to punish the perpetrator.

18C creates a form of civil liability Section 26 makes it clear that offending someone under section 18C is not a criminal offence.

Take Andrew Bolt, Bolt breached the Act but did not commit a crime.

Your friend Toben on the other hand did commit a crime but not by denying the Holocaust. Justice Branson ordered him to remove the material, he refused. Justice Lander said that Toben's behaviour amounted to criminal contempt.

Toben's original conduct, which contravened the Act itself, was not criminal.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights? And the idiotic mental contortions you are posting here are the inevitable result of your dedication to maintaining this self delusion?


Quote:
Should he be compensated?


I think it would be right for the government to compensate him for the unjust legislation he became a victim of, but I would happily settle for getting rid of 18c.


Quote:
No FD, nothing like Islamophobia. Can you name any historical argument related to Islam that is automatically criminalised as 'racial vilification'? I can't.


Are you suggesting that the ten year process of imprisoning Toben was automated? Those cunning Jews and their unstoppable bureaucracy, eh? Going to jail may not be automatic, however your efforts to racialise certain criticisms of Islam are an automatic response and you will consciously fabricate references to race in order to make the argument.


Quote:
Your friend Toben on the other hand did commit a crime but not by denying the Holocaust. Justice Branson ordered him to remove the material, he refused. Justice Lander said that Toben's behaviour amounted to criminal contempt.

Toben's original conduct, which contravened the Act itself, was not criminal.


The escalation to the Federal court provides a mechanism to criminalise the nominally non-criminal. You are failing the common sense test Raven. You are correct that the original act was not a criminal offence at the time it was committed, however the criminal act and the original act were the same real activity. The escalation to the federal court allowed the HREOC to turn it into a crime. The criminal offence absolutely required the RDA and 18c to be found a crime. The federal court gave criminal backing to the nominally toothless HREOC. Toben proves that all the excuses offered by the apologists in defence of 18c - that 18d provides a get out of jail free card, that the act is civil and not criminal and therefor does not undermine fundamental human rights - are lies. You either self censor according to the will of the HREOC in enforcing 18c, or the pass you on the the federal court for imprisonment.

You are lying by suggesting he "did commit a crime but not by denying the Holocaust." He violated the court order by continuing to deny the holocaust via his website. To deny this link is to willfully stick your head up your arse. Saying that he had the opportunity to self censor in order to avoid jail does not change this. The judge ordered him to cease publishing his opinion. He committed a crime by continuing to publish his opinion. He was jailed for his opinion. No amount of spineless excuses can change that.

If  you disagree, perhaps you can answer the question that Aussie is so scared of - what caused the court order?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:49pm

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights



no.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:56pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:49pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights



no.


Seconded.

Freediver what you seem to fail to grasp is that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.

Do you believe that you should be able to say whatever you want with absolutely zero consequence?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 14th, 2016 at 1:26pm
Here you go, verballing me yet again, freediver.


Quote:
If  you disagree, perhaps you can answer the question that Aussie is so scared of - what caused the court order?


I am not 'scared.'  I am simply getting off your perpetual motion merry-go-round.  Those links makes it quite plain why he was jailed.  Read them.  It does not matter what I think.


Quote:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights.


No. 

I am quite content to see 18C/D stay as is.  You have already conceded you can think of nothing you want to say which it precludes you from saying.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 14th, 2016 at 1:31pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 1:26pm:
Here you fo, verballing me yet again, freediver.



it's his specialty

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 14th, 2016 at 2:26pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 1:26pm:
Here you go, verballing me yet again, freediver.


Quote:
If  you disagree, perhaps you can answer the question that Aussie is so scared of - what caused the court order?


I am not 'scared.'  I am simply getting off your perpetual motion merry-go-round.  Those links makes it quite plain why he was jailed.  Read them.  It does not matter what I think.

[quote]Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights.


No. 

I am quite content to see 18C/D stay as is.  You have already conceded you can think of nothing you want to say which it precludes you from saying.[/quote]

It's now an unrelated contempt of court.

Strange. Toben confessed and apologised for his crime. He accepted his jail sentence as contempt of court, and not, as occurred in Italy and Germany, a custodial sentence for denying the Holocaust.

Yes, FD, if a magistrate tells you to stop publishing something that's the subject of court proceedings, and you continue to drop your propaganda into people's letterboxes, I think a three week stint in the cooler's pretty fair, don't you?

As far as contempt of court sentences go, it's quite lenient.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 14th, 2016 at 2:32pm

Raven wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:56pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:49pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights



no.


Seconded.

Freediver what you seem to fail to grasp is that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.

Do you believe that you should be able to say whatever you want with absolutely zero consequence?


Only if it offends the Muselman.

FD wants Muslims banned at the airport. This would mean locking up anyone who says Allah Uakbar.

Freeeeedom, innit.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:05pm

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Are you suggesting that the ten year process of imprisoning Toben was automated?


No, I wasn't talking about Toben at all. I was talking about our first law officer (and the fact that not a single person that I know of took him to task) brazenly declaring that holocaust denial by default comes under racial vilification.

Have you ever heard the AG or anyone from the government declare that any opinion related to Islamic history is automatically a case of racial vilification?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:05pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Are you suggesting that the ten year process of imprisoning Toben was automated?


No, I wasn't talking about Toben at all. I was talking about our first law officer (and the fact that not a single person that I know of took him to task) brazenly declaring that holocaust denial by default comes under racial vilification.

Have you ever heard the AG or anyone from the government declare that any opinion related to Islamic history is automatically a case of racial vilification?


There are better links behind paywalls.  But this will suffice to explain what Gandalf is saying for those unfamiliar.

Link.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:15pm

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 2:32pm:
FD wants Muslims banned at the airport. This would mean locking up anyone who says Allah Uakbar.

Freeeeedom, innit.


More precisely, FD wants to single out people who "appear to be muslim", quiz them about their views on the sharia, then ban them if their views on freedom are incompatible with ours. And then he claims with a straight face it wouldn't be religious discrimination.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:21pm

Raven wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 13th, 2016 at 2:59pm:
As Toben illustrates, you can be jailed if the HREOC escalates the matter to the federal court. Saying you cannot be jailed on the assumption you will agree to self censor in compliance with 18c does not meet the common sense test. Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust in contravention of 18c. 18c means you can now be jailed for exercising your fundamental human rights.

Do you support that Raven, or just offer idiotic excuses?


No it doesn't. You are either deliberately misinterpreting how the RDA works or you have no understanding of the law.

It is not a crime to breach 18c. The section says that it is unlawful for a person to do what is set out.

In law the term unlawful does not mean criminal, So while unlawful acts are prohibited by law, they are not a criminal offence under section 18C, which is in Part IIA of the Act. There is no offence under Part IIA of the RDA. There are no criminal sanctions attached to the conduct the Act is targeting. Nothing in the Act makes any form of vilification a criminal offence.

Section 26, which is in Part IV of the Act, says


Quote:
Except as expressly provided by this Part, nothing in this Act makes it an offence to do an act or agree with another person to do an act that is unlawful by reason of a provision of Part II or Part IIA.


Unlawful conduct is not illegal conduct. 'Unlawful' is conduct prohibited by law, an 'offence' is also conduct prohibited by law but at a more serious or higher level. There is a fundamental procedural difference – unlawful acts are pursued by the person or entity who is aggrieved, and illegal acts are pursued by the police in order to punish the perpetrator.

18C creates a form of civil liability Section 26 makes it clear that offending someone under section 18C is not a criminal offence.

Take Andrew Bolt, Bolt breached the Act but did not commit a crime.

Your friend Toben on the other hand did commit a crime but not by denying the Holocaust. Justice Branson ordered him to remove the material, he refused. Justice Lander said that Toben's behaviour amounted to criminal contempt.

Toben's original conduct, which contravened the Act itself, was not criminal.


Good explanation. I understand now that I was wrong to label a breach of the RDA as "criminal". Thanks for clarifying.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 3:15pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 2:32pm:
FD wants Muslims banned at the airport. This would mean locking up anyone who says Allah Uakbar.

Freeeeedom, innit.


More precisely, FD wants to single out people who "appear to be muslim", quiz them about their views on the sharia, then ban them if their views on freedom are incompatible with ours. And then he claims with a straight face it wouldn't be religious discrimination.


Well yes, but as you well know, freedom of speech and freedom of religion do not apply to one particular group.

And we all know who that is, don't we?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm
Gandalf did you make a submission on 18c?


Quote:
Seconded.


Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?


Quote:
Freediver what you seem to fail to grasp is that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.
Do you believe that you should be able to say whatever you want with absolutely zero consequence?


There were no meaningful consequences of Toben's actions. He did not incite violence or panic. He did not cause anyone to lose money. Nothing, other than outright rejection of the principles of freedom of speech, justifies jailing him for his opinion.

Freedom of speech literally means that no-one has the right not to be offended, yet offence was the only consequence.


Quote:
I am quite content to see 18C/D stay as is.  You have already conceded you can think of nothing you want to say which it precludes you from saying.


So you oppose freedom of speech then, and only support the right to say things that you or I might want to say? Can you even see the difference?


Quote:
Yes, FD, if a magistrate tells you to stop publishing something that's the subject of court proceedings, and you continue to drop your propaganda into people's letterboxes, I think a three week stint in the cooler's pretty fair, don't you?


They were not 'sub judice'. It was an ongoing blanket ban on Toben's violation of 18c, effectively criminalising 18c.


Quote:
As far as contempt of court sentences go, it's quite lenient.


Not really the point, is it Karnal? Would you support "quite lenient" sentencing for being a Muslim, or being gay?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:28pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.


What do you think Gandalf? Purely semantic? Or just plain wrong?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:28pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.


What do you think Gandalf? Purely semantic? Or just plain wrong?


G already told you he disagrees with this this point, FD - at least 3 times.

You like asking questions, don't you?

Don't you?


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:28pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.


What do you think Gandalf? Purely semantic? Or just plain wrong?


Yes Gandalf blame sharing and semantics are just plain wrong.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:43pm

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:11pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:28pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
He was jailed for contempt of court - nothing to do with his opinions what he said or 18c.


What do you think Gandalf? Purely semantic? Or just plain wrong?


G already told you he disagrees with this this point, FD - at least 3 times.

You like asking questions, don't you?

Don't you?



again and again and again and again

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:22pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them


I am not asking you whether he is capable of saying these things or suffering the consequences. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

It's a simple question John. No need to tie yourself in knots over it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:40pm

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them


I am not asking you whether he is capable of saying these things or suffering the consequences. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

It's a simple question John. No need to tie yourself in knots over it.


What did he say, FD?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them


I am not asking you whether he is capable of saying these things or suffering the consequences. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

It's a simple question John. No need to tie yourself in knots over it.


I answered the question. He's free to say what he likes. He's also free to follow court orders, or not. Just don't cry when he suffers consequences for it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:28pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 9:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:
Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



he can say what he likes, just as long as he doesn't cry if he suffers consequences because of them


I am not asking you whether he is capable of saying these things or suffering the consequences. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

It's a simple question John. No need to tie yourself in knots over it.


I answered the question. He's free to say what he likes. He's also free to follow court orders, or not. Just don't cry when he suffers consequences for it.


No you didn't. You dodged it, as usual. Whether you support his right depends on what you think the legal consequences should be. Despite the many threads on this issue, none of the people trying to make idiotic excuses for 18c have been willing to give their opinion on the fundamental issues. Why are you all so loathe to own your own opinions? Hopefully it is because you are ashamed of them.

So how about instead of me endlessly trying to dumb questions down to the point that the apologists can answer, you just give a straight answer? Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:59pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:28pm:
Why are you all so loathe to own your own opinions? Hopefully it is because you are ashamed of them.

So how about instead of me endlessly trying to dumb questions down to the point that the apologists can answer, you just give a straight answer?


Good point, FD. What did Toben say that got him in trouble?

Do you think his conviction should be overturned?

You must have missed these questions. You couldn't possibly be avoiding to give a straight answer.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 15th, 2016 at 2:56pm

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 7:18pm:

Quote:
Seconded.


Raven and John, do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?


Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?

Lets look at Freedom of Speech in Australia

A well established principle of Common Law is that Parliament is presumed not to have  intended to limit fundamental rights, unless it indicates this intention in clear terms. This includes freedom of speech

The Australian Constitution does not explicitly protect freedom of expression. However, the High Court has held that an implied freedom of political communication exists as an indispensable part of the system of representative and responsible government created by the Constitution. Free speech operates as a freedom from government restraint, rather than a right conferred directly on individuals.

Even the very champions of free speech, the USA, have a ton of things you are legally not allowed to say. The example that everyone is familiar with is you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded place. You can't incite people to violence, you can't slander (in speech) or libel (in writing) someone, and you can't say things that would make any reasonable person punch you in the face, because them's fightin' words.

Sometimes Raven loves how the Yanks say things.

The fighting words doctrine was established by the US Supreme Court by  a 9–0 decision in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire.

Chaplinsky told a New Hampshire town marshal who was attempting to prevent him from preaching that he was "a God-damned racketeer" and "a damned fascist" and was arrested. The court upheld the arrest and wrote in its decision that


Quote:
There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting words" those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.


All he did was call the bloke a few names and got arrested and the US Supreme Court held that there was a limit to free spech.

Your man Toben says one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century never happened and all he got was a court order telling him to take it off his website.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:28pm:
No you didn't. You dodged it, as usual. Whether you support his right depends on what you think the legal consequences should be. Despite the many threads on this issue, none of the people trying to make idiotic excuses for 18c have been willing to give their opinion on the fundamental issues. Why are you all so loathe to own your own opinions? Hopefully it is because you are ashamed of them.

So how about instead of me endlessly trying to dumb questions down to the point that the apologists can answer, you just give a straight answer? Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



answers there. TWICE.

all you have to do is read it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 15th, 2016 at 4:33pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 3:55pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 1:28pm:
No you didn't. You dodged it, as usual. Whether you support his right depends on what you think the legal consequences should be. Despite the many threads on this issue, none of the people trying to make idiotic excuses for 18c have been willing to give their opinion on the fundamental issues. Why are you all so loathe to own your own opinions? Hopefully it is because you are ashamed of them.

So how about instead of me endlessly trying to dumb questions down to the point that the apologists can answer, you just give a straight answer? Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?



answers there. TWICE.

all you have to do is read it.


Yes, JS, but FD said you dodged it as usual. Who to believe?

It's your word against FD's.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 5:45pm

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 4:33pm:
Yes, JS, but FD said you dodged it as usual. Who to believe?



ohh he knows. He's just not happy if he doesn't ask the same question at least a dozen times.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm

Quote:
Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?


So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


Quote:
answers there. TWICE.


You dodged the question twice. Three times now. Try giving a straight answer this time. Do you support Toben's right to say the things he said?


Quote:
He's also free to follow court orders, or not.


If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it. This is pretty simple stuff John.

Raven and John, would you say this level of idiocy is typical of people who support 18c?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:13pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it


No poo Sherlock. Do you think the public should be free to pick and choose which court orders we obey and which we ignore FD?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:19pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it


No poo Sherlock.


No poo indeed. You would have to be pretty stupid to get that one wrong wouldn't you John? On an unrelated matter, can you explain the meaning of this?


John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm:
He's also free to follow court orders, or not.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:26pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:

Quote:
Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?


So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


He wasn't jailed for his opinion.

Do you believe that you should be able to say anything you want without consequence?

PS nice job dodging the rest of the argument. You should be a stuntman.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:27pm

Raven wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:56pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:49pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Aussie, Raven, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and Karnal: would it be fair to say that you want Toben and his ilk to be silenced, and are willing to see them imprisoned to achieve this, but you realise on some level that it is wrong to imprison a person for their opinion, so you settle for the 'happy coincidence' that Toben was jailed for an unrelated contempt of court, creating a vacuum of causation around his imprisonment in order to allow you to ignore your own views on human rights



no.


Seconded.

Freediver what you seem to fail to grasp is that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.

Do you believe that you should be able to say whatever you want with absolutely zero consequence?


It depends what you mean by consequence. What you are saying is that there was free speech in Argentina when the consequence was being taped up and dropped from a helicopter into the ocean.

The consequence in Toben's case should be that everyone thinks he's a dickhead.

Free speech means to me means there should be no govt sanction against what you say politically and although we have no bill of rights unfortunately, the high court has found we have a right to free political speech. If what happened in Europe during WWII was not political, I don't know what is.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:29pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:19pm:
No poo indeed. You would have to be pretty stupid to get that one wrong wouldn't you John? On an unrelated matter, can you explain the meaning of this?


John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm:
He's also free to follow court orders, or not.


freedom is a ideology that has nothing to do with the modern world we live in. We live in a society bound by rules and regulations. Without it society cannot function. Sure, he can ignore the court order, but there will be consequences to his actions. 

Now, my turn ...... Do you believe in freedom of speech, and should people be free to say what they like?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:35pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:29pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:19pm:
No poo indeed. You would have to be pretty stupid to get that one wrong wouldn't you John? On an unrelated matter, can you explain the meaning of this?


John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm:
He's also free to follow court orders, or not.


freedom is a ideology that has nothing to do with the modern world we live in. We live in a society bound by rules and regulations. Without it society cannot function. Sure, he can ignore the court order, but there will be consequences to his actions. 

Now, my turn ...... Do you believe in freedom of speech, and should people be free to say what they like?


You don't understand Mr Smith.  FD asks all the questions here.  You can ask him about that as well, but he won't answer, you know.  It's not his thing.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:36pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:35pm:
You don't understand Mr Smith.  FD asks all the questions here.


i knew that before I asked ... he's to gutless to provide a straight answer.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:40pm
Wanker got what he deserved.

I doubt anyone cares.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm

Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:26pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:

Quote:
Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?


So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


He wasn't jailed for his opinion.


I did not say he was. This is what I said. Read it carefully now: Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:29pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:19pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it


No poo Sherlock.


No poo indeed. You would have to be pretty stupid to get that one wrong wouldn't you John? On an unrelated matter, can you explain the meaning of this?


John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm:
He's also free to follow court orders, or not.



freedom is a ideology that has nothing to do with the modern world we live in. We live in a society bound by rules and regulations. Without it society cannot function. Sure, he can ignore the court order, but there will be consequences to his actions. 

Now, my turn ...... Do you believe in freedom of speech, and should people be free to say what they like?


So is he or is he not free to ignore the court orders?


Quote:
Wanker got what he deserved.
I doubt anyone cares.


You can tell that by the many threads about it eh? People who care about human rights do. Should people be denied basic freedoms because they are unpopular?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:24pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
So is he or is he not free to ignore the court orders?


of course he is. And he did.


freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
You can tell that by the many threads about it eh?


didn't you start them all? :D :D

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:25pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:29pm:
Now, my turn ...... Do you believe in freedom of speech, and should people be free to say what they like?



don't run away FD.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:31pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:24pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
So is he or is he not free to ignore the court orders?


of course he is. And he did.


You'll figure it out one day John. When you do, it will seem like you always knew.


John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it


No poo Sherlock.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:41pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:

Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:26pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:

Quote:
Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?


So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


He wasn't jailed for his opinion.


I did not say he was. This is what I said. Read it carefully now: Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


Raven will answer yours when you answer his (guess Raven will never answer it then)

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:42pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:31pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:24pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
So is he or is he not free to ignore the court orders?


of course he is. And he did.


You'll figure it out one day John. When you do, it will seem like you always knew.


John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it


No poo Sherlock.


I'm beginning to think you won't figure it out FD.


John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:29pm:
freedom is a ideology that has nothing to do with the modern world we live in



now, why don't you answer my question? Are you afraid?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:42pm
Do you think the 2007 FD always knew, FD?

FD?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:46pm
No more questions at this time, effendes. FD's onto it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:25pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:24pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
So is he or is he not free to ignore the court orders?


of course he is. And he did.


freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
You can tell that by the many threads about it eh?


didn't you start them all? :D :D


....and stickied one all over the Forum.  He did not start one of the three.  He started two of the three, this being the latest.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:31pm
Would any of you like to respond to this?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm

Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:

Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:26pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:

Quote:
Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?


So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


He wasn't jailed for his opinion.


I did not say he was. This is what I said. Read it carefully now: Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


Raven will answer yours when you answer his (guess Raven will never answer it then)


Sure. I support freedom of speech, and I am not confused by what that means either. Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:42pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:31pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:24pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:
So is he or is he not free to ignore the court orders?


of course he is. And he did.


You'll figure it out one day John. When you do, it will seem like you always knew.


John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:
If you get imprisoned for doing something, that means you are not free to do it


No poo Sherlock.


I'm beginning to think you won't figure it out FD.


John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:29pm:
freedom is a ideology that has nothing to do with the modern world we live in


now, why don't you answer my question? Are you afraid?


So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


Quote:
Would any of you like to respond to this?


You will have to dumb it down a bit Setanta.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:37pm
FD.....maybe it is time you provided your definition of freedom of speech.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.




freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
Sure. I support freedom of speech, and I am not confused by what that means either.


you mean you support it right up until that free speech is about something you disagree with, don't you?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:17pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.


What consequences? A bullet to the amygdala? There should be no consequences to political discussion beyond other political discussion and ridicule for the ridiculous.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:25pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:17pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.


What consequences? A bullet to the amygdala? There should be no consequences to political discussion beyond other political discussion and ridicule for the ridiculous.


bullet? throwing from helicopters? Seriously Sentanta, thats the sort of ridiculous comment I would expect from FD.

Do you think people should be allowed to ignore court orders without any consequences whatsoever?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:25pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:17pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.


What consequences? A bullet to the amygdala? There should be no consequences to political discussion beyond other political discussion and ridicule for the ridiculous.


bullet? throwing from helicopters? Seriously Sentanta, thats the sort of ridiculous comment I would expect from FD.

Do you think people should be allowed to ignore court orders without any consequences whatsoever?


Why? As long as you can say what you like, you should suffer the consequences that the govt legislates. Legislation is the govt of the days decision.

So what are these consequences of which you speak, they can range from a few day gaol to being disappeared, that is the reality of your view. There should be no consequence for political speech.

The court order is enabled by legislation, 18c.

Should read: There should be no consequence for political speech from the govt or it's agencies.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:39pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm:
Why? As long as you can say what you like, you should suffer the consequences that the govt legislates. Legislation is the govt of the days decision.



legislation are the rules that we live by. Without them we would have anarchy. Whether you agree with the judges decision or not, you cannot allow someone to ignore a court order.


Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm:
So what are these consequences of which you speak, they can range from a few day gaol to being disappeared, that is the reality of your view. There should be no consequence for political speech.



Consequences range, from being ridiculed, to being sued for defamation or slander, to facing more serious charges such as inciting a riot etc. In the end you don't have to agree with the consequences, but as long as you are aware of the consequences and you continue to do whatever you are doing that makes you a subject of those consequences, then you cannot whinge that you are being hard done by. Toben didn't suffer any real consequences for saying what he said, apart from being ordered not to. Tobins most serious consequences came about because he ignored a court order.

We simply cannot function properly as a society if people pick and choose which court orders they will or will not follow.


Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:53pm:
That sounds kinda religious, but anyway... The judge acted within the law, no doubt, who made the legislation? Yes the govt. So if the govt brought back the DP and legislated that penalty for nutty deniers, that would be OK? This is exactly what has happened legally in many countries to purge the "others". John you know this is wrong.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:53pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:39pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm:
Why? As long as you can say what you like, you should suffer the consequences that the govt legislates. Legislation is the govt of the days decision.



legislation are the rules that we live by. Without them we would have anarchy. Whether you agree with the judges decision or not, you cannot allow someone to ignore a court order.


Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:33pm:
So what are these consequences of which you speak, they can range from a few day gaol to being disappeared, that is the reality of your view. There should be no consequence for political speech.



Consequences range, from being ridiculed, to being sued for defamation or slander, to facing more serious charges such as inciting a riot etc. In the end you don't have to agree with the consequences, but as long as you are aware of the consequences and you continue to do whatever you are doing that makes you a subject of those consequences, then you cannot whinge that you are being hard done by. Toben didn't suffer any real consequences for saying what he said, apart from being ordered not to. Tobins most serious consequences came about because he ignored a court order.

We simply cannot function properly as a society if people pick and choose which court orders they will or will not follow.

That sounds kinda religious, but anyway... The judge acted within the law, no doubt, who made the legislation? Yes the govt. So if the govt brought back the DP and legislated that penalty for nutty deniers, that would be OK? This is exactly what has happened legally in many countries to purge the "others". John you know this is wrong.


Think about it John and not your duel with FD, which I don't care about in the least, laws are meant to be in the best interest of the majority and not ignore the minority. When the govt rather than society can dictate what you can say and the punishment for it, just because...

Locking nutters up for their views is not a good thing, you may be next. We just need someone to legislate it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by The Mechanic on Dec 16th, 2016 at 6:11am

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 7:36pm:
Gerald Fredrick Töben is an Adelaide man who was jailed for denying the holocaust, in contravention of section 18c of the racial discrimination act. The Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission first ruled against Toben in 2000. It took another 9 years for them to get him jailed for denying the holocaust by escalating the matter to the federal court. Toben's crime was to continue to publish holocaust denial material from his website (the Adelaide Institute).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Fredrick_T%C3%B6ben

Some members here are so desperate to defend section 18c that they have started denying it is the reason for his jailing, in particular Aussie, John Smith, Barnacle, Brian Ross and the usual apologists (Gandalf being a curious exception). Aussie's explanation of this is classic apologetics. Aussie actually agrees that Toben was jailed for not refraining from denying the holocaust, but insists it is "a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to say instead that he was jailed for denying the holocaust. To support this, he presented evidence that concluded that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust (without Aussie's absurd distinction that he was jailed for not refraining from doing so). John Smith seems to think that the problem with 18c is best resolved by removing contempt of court legislation rather than 18c itself.

This is as good a reason as any to defend freedom of speech. If not, you leave yourself at the mercy of this sort of idiocy.


John Smith wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 10:56am:
Does FD think we should revoke 'contempt of court' legislation too?

It would seem that if his concern was Tobin, that should be the legislation he should be targeting, instead of lying about 18c.



The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:26am:

freediver wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 11:07am:
That's the one. The contempt took the form of denying the holocaust, in violation of 18c.


But he was actually jailed for contempt of court. I'm glad that's cleared up.



Dnarever wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 12:50pm:
18c is more about penalising the misuse or abuse of freedom of speech

You are not going to claim that what Bold did was ok are you ?



Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11th, 2016 at 2:26pm:
Seems to me that the critics of 18c like to tell lies about past court cases that had absolutely nothing to do with section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act.   I wonder why?  Do you think lying?    ::) ::)



Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 7:15pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 7:10pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 6:11pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 6th, 2016 at 5:57pm:
Sure. Has anyone suggested an alternative means of arriving at damages?

Gandalf, do you agree that Toben was jailed for denying the holocaust, or do you take the learned Aussie's view that he was jailed for Contempt of Court by defying a Court Order not refraining from denying the holocaust (and anything else is a blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind)


I've corrected the question so that I am not verballed, and to make it accurate in terms of what I said, and not what FD wishes I had said.


Your own words Aussie:


Aussie wrote on Dec 2nd, 2016 at 7:51pm:
Finally...after how many pages, you get it correct:


Quote:
So he was not jailed for denying the holocaust. He was jailed for not ceasing to deny the holocaust?


....as he was ordered to do by the Court.


Your own words again Aussie:


Aussie wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:58pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 3rd, 2016 at 8:50pm:
Can you clarify that when you accused me of lying about whether the man was jailed for denying the holocaust (without explanation) you merely meant that he was jailed for refusing to cease denying the holocaust?


How many times must I do that for you freediver?   I have agreed with that.


The evidence you introduced Aussie:


Aussie wrote on Nov 27th, 2016 at 12:58pm:
Pausing there, it follows from the above that there is no room for dispute that Dr Toben has spent time in prison in Australia for criminal contempt constituted by the publication of material found to have racially vilified the Jewish people and which conveyed imputations including that there was serious doubt that the Holocaust occurred.


After agreeing with all this, do you still insist it is a "blatant lie of the most scurrilous kind" to suggest he was jailed for denying the holocaust?


Yes.


the very thing the crazy leftist say that they believe in and are champions of defending... IS FREE SPEECH..

BUT

they've done everything that they can to can free speech unless if fits their own narrative..

you only have to go back as far as the crazy Labor  Gillard/Greens coalition government when they've tried to bring in censorship..

and when Gillard herself was ringing around to the bosses of the press to get reporters sacked!!  >:(

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 16th, 2016 at 8:12am

Setanta wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:53pm:
Think about it John and not your duel with FD, which I don't care about in the least, laws are meant to be in the best interest of the majority and not ignore the minority. When the govt rather than society can dictate what you can say and the punishment for it, just because...



the govt. is representative of society. Ultimately, if society feels the law is unfair, it will change. I don't think it is and I don't have a problem with it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:47pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.




freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
Sure. I support freedom of speech, and I am not confused by what that means either.


you mean you support it right up until that free speech is about something you disagree with, don't you?


You are the one who is struggling. Which of the following is correct:

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:56pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:47pm:
You are the one who is struggling.



not at all ... I've told you my position many times. That you refuse to believe it is your problem




John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:39pm:
legislation are the rules that we live by. Without them we would have anarchy. Whether you agree with the judges decision or not, you cannot allow someone to ignore a court order.




John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:39pm:
In the end you don't have to agree with the consequences, but as long as you are aware of the consequences and you continue to do whatever you are doing that makes you a subject of those consequences, then you cannot whinge that you are being hard done by



John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.




John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:24pm:
of course he is. And he did.



John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:29pm:
freedom is a ideology that has nothing to do with the modern world we live in. We live in a society bound by rules and regulations. Without it society cannot function. Sure, he can ignore the court order, but there will be consequences to his actions.



John Smith wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 11:03pm:
He's free to say what he likes. He's also free to follow court orders, or not. Just don't cry when he suffers consequences for it.



Raven wrote on Dec 14th, 2016 at 12:56pm:
Freediver what you seem to fail to grasp is that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.

Do you believe that you should be able to say whatever you want with absolutely zero consequence?




and there are probably a dozen other comments by me that explain my position. Not sure how many times I have to repeat them to you. Are you pretending not to understand because to do otherwise would be to concede your position, or are you really that thick?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:57pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
you mean you support it right up until that free speech is about something you disagree with, don't you?


can you clarify this FD? A simple yes or no will do.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 16th, 2016 at 6:10pm
Still struggling I see John. No need to dig up a dozen quotes of you dodging the same question.

Which of the following is correct?

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it


John Smith wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:57pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:
you mean you support it right up until that free speech is about something you disagree with, don't you?


can you clarify this FD? A simple yes or no will do.


I disagree with Toben, but unlike you I don't see that as a justification for putting him in jail.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 16th, 2016 at 6:16pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 6:10pm:
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it



sure he is ... but there will be consequences.

Is life always a struggle for you?


freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 6:10pm:
I disagree with Toben, but unlike you I don't see that as a justification for putting him in jail.


i wasn't asking about tobin .... for such a proponent of free speech, why is it then that half your forum members are banned from feedback? Or is free speech only something you cheer for when it suits you?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 16th, 2016 at 7:16pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 12:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 11:11pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
So when you say he is free to ignore the court orders, you lie about him being free, because freedom is an old ideology?


no, i mean there are consequences to his actions. I'm not sure why you struggle with this so much. He can say what he likes, he just has to be willing to suffer the consequences for what he says.




freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:
Sure. I support freedom of speech, and I am not confused by what that means either.


you mean you support it right up until that free speech is about something you disagree with, don't you?


You are the one who is struggling. Which of the following is correct:

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it


If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it


Yes you are not entitled to treat the court with contempt, they lock you up for that.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 16th, 2016 at 10:03pm
Let's try this again John.

Which of the following is correct?

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it


Quote:
i wasn't asking about tobin .... for such a proponent of free speech, why is it then that half your forum members are banned from feedback? Or is free speech only something you cheer for when it suits you?


I could ban every single one of you from this entire website, and it would not infringe on your rights or freedoms in any way. Do you think I let you leave your trail of stupid all over this forum because I think you have a right to do so? I am being generous, that is all.


Quote:
If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it
Yes you are not entitled to treat the court with contempt, they lock you up for that.


Is that your answer to the question DNA? Are you saying a) is not correct?

You never did say whether you think it is right to deny unpopular people their freedom. Would you like to have another go?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 16th, 2016 at 10:27pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Let's try this again John.

Which of the following is correct?

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it


Quote:
i wasn't asking about tobin .... for such a proponent of free speech, why is it then that half your forum members are banned from feedback? Or is free speech only something you cheer for when it suits you?


I could ban every single one of you from this entire website, and it would not infringe on your rights or freedoms in any way. Do you think I let you leave your trail of stupid all over this forum because I think you have a right to do so? I am being generous, that is all.

[quote]If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it
Yes you are not entitled to treat the court with contempt, they lock you up for that.


Is that your answer to the question DNA? Are you saying a) is not correct?

You never did say whether you think it is right to deny unpopular people their freedom. Would you like to have another go?[/quote]

FD, you never did say whether you agree with Moses. Would you like to have another go?

Let's clear this up once and for all. You're online now. All you have to do is say whether you agree that Muslims are inbred, sub-human untermenschen who are genetically predisposed to squat to piss (the inferior male species, of course).

If you say nothing, we'll take that as a yes, okay?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:14pm
You're still here, FD. Don't want to say?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:17pm
I am certain that Moses is wrong. Muslims are not a species.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:31pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:17pm:
I am certain that Moses is wrong. Muslims are not a species.


Thanks, FD. No more questions at this time, effendes.

FD is taking rest.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:38pm

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:31pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:17pm:
I am certain that Moses is wrong. Muslims are not a species.


Thanks, FD. No more questions at this time, effendes.

FD is taking rest.


I take it he's not rust.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:53pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:38pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:31pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:17pm:
I am certain that Moses is wrong. Muslims are not a species.


Thanks, FD. No more questions at this time, effendes.

FD is taking rest.


I take it he's not rust.


Oh no. FD will be back for more evasion in the morning.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 17th, 2016 at 11:03am

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
et's try this again John.

Which of the following is correct?

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it


both


freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
I could ban every single one of you from this entire website, and it would not infringe on your rights or freedoms in any way.



sure it does. You want to control what we do and do not say . That's an infringement on our 'free speech' (not that I am disagreeing with your right to do so). Of course, you can justify it to yourself that it's different all you want, hypocrites always do. Just don't expect anyone to believe it when you do.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 17th, 2016 at 11:42am
Are you suggesting that free speech implies a right to get your idiotic views published on whatever website you want?


John Smith wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 11:03am:

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Let's try this again John.

Which of the following is correct?

a) Toben was free to ignore the court orders
b) If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it


both


Can you explain, for the benefit of any of your fellow apologists who somehow think you are not saying something incredibly stupid?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 17th, 2016 at 12:04pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 11:17pm:
I am certain that Moses is wrong. Muslims are not a species.


The Muslim cat  muezza  could be considered a species ?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 17th, 2016 at 12:14pm

freediver wrote on Dec 16th, 2016 at 10:03pm:

Quote:
If you get jailed for something, then you are not actually free to do it
Yes you are not entitled to treat the court with contempt, they lock you up for that.


Is that your answer to the question DNA? Are you saying a) is not correct?

You never did say whether you think it is right to deny unpopular people their freedom. Would you like to have another go?


a) is not correct?   Yes a) is not correct.

You never did say whether you think it is right to deny unpopular people their freedom.


Being locked up for contempt of court should not have a relationship to popularity though as with most things being popular does seem to allow people to get away with more.



Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 17th, 2016 at 1:06pm

Quote:
a) is not correct?   Yes a) is not correct.


Oh good. Maybe you can explain it to John Smith. He already realises that you are not free to do something if you are jailed for it, but is having trouble joining the dots.


Quote:
Being locked up for contempt of court should not have a relationship to popularity though as with most things being popular does seem to allow people to get away with more.


What about one step back in the process, in the establishment of the court order. Should your popularity dictate whether you get a court order that criminalises your opinion?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 17th, 2016 at 4:21pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:

Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:26pm:
He wasn't jailed for his opinion.


I did not say he was. This is what I said. Read it carefully now: Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


Thread title: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion

;D ;D

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 18th, 2016 at 7:22pm
did you make a submission on 18c Gandalf?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:12pm

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 1:06pm:

Quote:
a) is not correct?   Yes a) is not correct.


Oh good. Maybe you can explain it to John Smith. He already realises that you are not free to do something if you are jailed for it, but is having trouble joining the dots.

[quote]Being locked up for contempt of court should not have a relationship to popularity though as with most things being popular does seem to allow people to get away with more.


What about one step back in the process, in the establishment of the court order. Should your popularity dictate whether you get a court order that criminalises your opinion?[/quote]

What about one step back in the process, in the establishment of the court order. Should your popularity dictate whether you get a court order that criminalises your opinion


I have not read the finding in the matter but I am fairly certain that the result was not related to popularity. I strongly suspect that whatever he said did in fact breach 18c.

In answer to you question popularity almost certainly had nothing to do with the ruling.

Do you oppose the restriction to freedom of speech endemic in other laws such as defamation etc ?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:25pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:12pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 1:06pm:

Quote:
a) is not correct?   Yes a) is not correct.


Oh good. Maybe you can explain it to John Smith. He already realises that you are not free to do something if you are jailed for it, but is having trouble joining the dots.

[quote]Being locked up for contempt of court should not have a relationship to popularity though as with most things being popular does seem to allow people to get away with more.


What about one step back in the process, in the establishment of the court order. Should your popularity dictate whether you get a court order that criminalises your opinion?


What about one step back in the process, in the establishment of the court order. Should your popularity dictate whether you get a court order that criminalises your opinion


I have not read the finding in the matter but I am fairly certain that the result was not related to popularity. I strongly suspect that whatever he said did in fact breach 18c.

In answer to you question popularity almost certainly had nothing to do with the ruling.

Do you oppose the restriction to freedom of speech endemic in other laws such as defamation etc ? [/quote]

Free speech is about politics. Political free speech. I don't thing anyone pretends you can say whatever you like where ever you like to whoever you like.

A bit like here, you call someone a paedo without evidence that you would take to court and you will get a holiday. Discuss what you like about politics.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:31pm

Quote:
Free speech is about politics. Political free speech.


I'm not sure that is what Tobin was on about.  I've asked FD about this twice now....and no response.

What is 'your' definition of freedom of speech?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:50pm

Quote:
I have not read the finding in the matter but I am fairly certain that the result was not related to popularity. I strongly suspect that whatever he said did in fact breach 18c.


According to the HREOC it did. 18c itself is hopelessly vague. You will find nothing in there to give you a clear answer on what violates it, or whether the decision on Toben was tainted by his overwhelming unpopularity. In any case, I was not asking you to read the court ruling.


Quote:
In answer to you question popularity almost certainly had nothing to do with the ruling.


I was asking whether it should, not whether it did. Do your own personal views make it easier for you to discard his freedom of speech?


Quote:
Do you oppose the restriction to freedom of speech endemic in other laws such as defamation etc ?


Not in principle. I see slander as a 'just consequence' of the kind others here talk of but do not understand. I am glad to see we have had some reform in Australia since I last looked into it. There are others that are more of a grey area, but none I am aware of that are such a clear and grievous attack on freedom of speech as 18c.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:58pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 18th, 2016 at 8:31pm:

Quote:
Free speech is about politics. Political free speech.


I'm not sure that is what Tobin was on about.  I've asked FD about this twice now....and no response.

What is 'your' definition of freedom of speech?


I gave it. :-? I consider Toben's crap political.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 18th, 2016 at 9:09pm

Quote:
.....freedom of speech.....


Why are you 'scared' of giving us your definition of this thing you keep on and on about, freediver?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 20th, 2016 at 8:51am

freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
did you make a submission on 18c Gandalf?


No. Sorry, I know you asked a few times.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 20th, 2016 at 8:59am

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 11:42am:
Are you suggesting that free speech implies a right to get your idiotic views published on whatever website you want?


Not on any website, but a public website that is open to anyone who wishes to join.well, that is free speech isn't it?

Why? Are you impling that free speech is a myth? that speech comes with restriction, rules and regulations that must be upheld?




freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 1:06pm:
Oh good. Maybe you can explain it to John Smith. He already realises that you are not free to do something if you are jailed for it, but is having trouble joining the dots.


That's your argument? cheap petty shots?  ;D ;D way to go FD!

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm
This is not really a public website John. Its owned by Freediver (to a degree - technically you could say his webhost "owns" it), and maintained by him out of his own pocket. A "public" website would be one that is owned by the taxpayers I suppose.

Still, censoring what is published on your own website does, IMO, reflect your values regarding free speech. Now let me demonstrate FD's values in terms of the expression of these following words:

black person
nice person
bugger
nice person

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 20th, 2016 at 1:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm:
This is not really a public website John



semantics ... he has no restrictions on who joins. Joining is open to everyone and its free.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 20th, 2016 at 2:01pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 1:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm:
This is not really a public website John



semantics ... he has no restrictions on who joins. Joining is open to everyone and its free.


Thats his choice though. Nothing is stopping him from introducing fees or restrictions if he wanted to. The point is, we are all here at the pleasure of FD, and its his prerogative to allow or disallow whatever speech he likes. 

Basically, FD is correct to say your right to free speech is not violated in any way by what he chooses to public on the forum that he personally owns. But I'll repeat, the way he censors the website does betray his values regarding free speech. The fact that he chooses to prevent people from publishing certain "offensive" words on his forum, would make him something of a hypocrite if he advocates people's right to have the freedom to say these words. Or to put it another way, if he supported people having the right to express these words, why would he censor them when they say them on his forum?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 20th, 2016 at 3:53pm

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 10:34pm:

Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 9:23pm:

Raven wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:26pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 15th, 2016 at 8:09pm:

Quote:
Yes. You can say what you like but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say

Do you think you should be able to say or do what you want without consequence?


So you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


He wasn't jailed for his opinion.


I did not say he was. This is what I said. Read it carefully now: Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


Raven will answer yours when you answer his (guess Raven will never answer it then)


Sure. I support freedom of speech, and I am not confused by what that means either. Do you support freedom of speech, as well as jailing people for their opinion?


No. And you still haven't answered the question

Toben is still free to espouse his views, his free speech hasn't been impinged.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 20th, 2016 at 7:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm:
This is not really a public website John. Its owned by Freediver (to a degree - technically you could say his webhost "owns" it), and maintained by him out of his own pocket. A "public" website would be one that is owned by the taxpayers I suppose.

Still, censoring what is published on your own website does, IMO, reflect your values regarding free speech. Now let me demonstrate FD's values in terms of the expression of these following words:

black person
nice person
bugger
nice person


We're all nice persons, G. It would only be censorship if FD banned us from saying words like vagina in Celtic.

That would not be Freeeeedom.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 20th, 2016 at 7:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 2:01pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 1:39pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 12:51pm:
This is not really a public website John



semantics ... he has no restrictions on who joins. Joining is open to everyone and its free.


Thats his choice though. Nothing is stopping him from introducing fees or restrictions if he wanted to. The point is, we are all here at the pleasure of FD, and its his prerogative to allow or disallow whatever speech he likes. 

Basically, FD is correct to say your right to free speech is not violated in any way by what he chooses to public on the forum that he personally owns. But I'll repeat, the way he censors the website does betray his values regarding free speech. The fact that he chooses to prevent people from publishing certain "offensive" words on his forum, would make him something of a hypocrite if he advocates people's right to have the freedom to say these words. Or to put it another way, if he supported people having the right to express these words, why would he censor them when they say them on his forum?


Yes, but would it be hypocritical to value freedom of speech above all else, but refuse to express your own opinion?

Would it be hypocritical to repeatedly and aggressively demand answers from others, but leave a discussion when answers are requested from you?

would it be hypocritical to make stuff up about the views of others, but scream blue murder when they (correctly) summarize your own perspective?

And would it be hypocritical to accuse others of being pedantic while you sift through their words with a fine tooth comb for 20-odd pages?

I'm curious.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 20th, 2016 at 7:41pm
Do you think FD will tell us his definition of freedom of speech any time soon?  I've asked three times now.  Maybe a dedicated Thread....just so he sees it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 20th, 2016 at 7:43pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 7:41pm:
Do you think FD will tell us his definition of freedom of speech any time soon?  I've asked three times now.  Maybe a dedicated Thread....just so he sees it.



not a hope in hell :D :D

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 20th, 2016 at 8:00pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 7:41pm:
Do you think FD will tell us his definition of freedom of speech any time soon?  I've asked three times now.  Maybe a dedicated Thread....reasoo he sees it.


Not at all, Aussie. FD said that freedom of speech is the right to be a bigot. This is his actual definition.

You won't hear a squeak from FD on this. He clearly values bigotry above truth, knowledge and reason, and he freely admits this. Ask him.

Oh, you have.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 20th, 2016 at 8:04pm
Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion



He was also Jailed in Germany and the UK. His opinion must stink.

I suggest that he does not go to the USA.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:29pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 8:59am:

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 11:42am:
Are you suggesting that free speech implies a right to get your idiotic views published on whatever website you want?


Not on any website, but a public website that is open to anyone who wishes to join.well, that is free speech isn't it?


This is a privately owned website John. However, you are even less likely to get your idiocy published on a pbulicly owned one.


Quote:
Why? Are you impling that free speech is a myth? that speech comes with restriction, rules and regulations that must be upheld?


I am telling you, as clearly and simply as I can, that freedom of speech does not imply any compulsion on others to publish your idiocy.


Quote:

freediver wrote on Dec 17th, 2016 at 1:06pm:
Oh good. Maybe you can explain it to John Smith. He already realises that you are not free to do something if you are jailed for it, but is having trouble joining the dots.


That's your argument? cheap petty shots?  ;D ;D way to go FD!


What you are posing here is incredibly stupid John. You are typical of 18c's supporters. You acknowledge that people are not free to do something if they get jailed for it, yet still insist Toben was free to ignore the court order, despite getting jailed for it. This is not cheap and petty, it is a measure of how stupid your argument is, and the lack of legitimacy behind 18c.


Quote:
This is not really a public website John. Its owned by Freediver (to a degree - technically you could say his webhost "owns" it)


They provide a hosting service. The content and the URL belongs to me and I can move it to whatever host I want.


Quote:
semantics ... he has no restrictions on who joins. Joining is open to everyone and its free.


You started the discussion on what freedom of speech means John. Now instead of admitting you are wrong, you are trying to dismiss it as semantics. Your ability to post here is a measure of my generosity alone, not a result of any right you have.


Quote:
Toben is still free to espouse his views, his free speech hasn't been impinged.


Raven, do you think jailing him if he expresses those view 'impinges' his freedom of speech?


Quote:
And would it be hypocritical to accuse others of being pedantic while you sift through their words with a fine tooth comb for 20-odd pages?


You don't need a fine tooth comb here Karnal. The stupid is coming thick and fast. For example, Raven just claimed that Toben's freedom has not been impinged. How stupid would you rate that? Even you will struggle to rescue that one.


Quote:
He was also Jailed in Germany and the UK. His opinion must stink.


DNA, do you think his unpopularity or his jailing overseas is a good excuse for denying him freedom of speech or putting him in jail?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 2:46pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:29pm:
yet still insist Toben was free to ignore the court order,


I'm curious, how exactly was he forced to ignore the court order?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.

The so called defenders of free speech, journalists are some of the worst. They heavily monitor what goes up and remove things they don't like.

If Toben was jailed for his opinion it's because his opinion was he could ignore the court

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Mr Hammer on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:27pm

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.

The so called defenders of free speech, journalists are some of the worst. They heavily monitor what goes up and remove things they don't like.

If Toben was jailed for his opinion it's because his opinion was he could ignore the court
TAKE IT DOWN OR WE WILL ARREST YOU!!!! There's something wrong with that when  Muslim children were allowed to walk around  Sydney's CBD with be-heading signs and nobody  was arrested. If they were allowed to do that then what's the problem.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 9:20am

John Smith wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 2:46pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:29pm:
yet still insist Toben was free to ignore the court order,


I'm curious, how exactly was he forced to ignore the court order?



FD ...  care to explain your stupidity here or are you going to run away again?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


Quote:
The so called defenders of free speech, journalists are some of the worst. They heavily monitor what goes up and remove things they don't like.


So what?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:38am

John Smith wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 9:20am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 2:46pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:29pm:
yet still insist Toben was free to ignore the court order,


I'm curious, how exactly was he forced to ignore the court order?



FD ...  care to explain your stupidity here or are you going to run away again?



FD?
FD?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:38am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 8:51am:

freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
did you make a submission on 18c Gandalf?


No. Sorry, I know you asked a few times.


Is that because you feel conflicted on the issue?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:47am

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:38am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20th, 2016 at 8:51am:

freediver wrote on Dec 18th, 2016 at 7:22pm:
did you make a submission on 18c Gandalf?


No. Sorry, I know you asked a few times.


Is that because you feel conflicted on the issue?


More to do with the fact that I couldn't be arsed.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:51am
So your conflicted feelings on 18c were only a minor part of it?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 11:04am

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:51am:
So your conflicted feelings on 18c were only a minor part of it?


No. But it doesn't even make sense. Why would "conflicted feelings" about 18c stop someone from making a submission about it? Sounds like a good opportunity to make a submission about your "conflcited feelings" about it, if you really cared - no?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 12:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 11:04am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:51am:
So your conflicted feelings on 18c were only a minor part of it?


No. But it doesn't even make sense. Why would "conflicted feelings" about 18c stop someone from making a submission about it? Sounds like a good opportunity to make a submission about your "conflcited feelings" about it, if you really cared - no?


Sure, that makes perfect sense, if you felt very strongly about it both ways.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 12:19pm
don't run away FD .... stand by your claims for once in your life.

here, to make it easier for you, I'll repeat the question


how exactly was Tobin forced to ignore the court order?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 4:59pm

Quote:
don't run away FD .... stand by your claims for once in your life.


Which claim would you like me to stand by?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 24th, 2016 at 3:06am

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Political speech should hold no lawful sanction.

If you want to really think about it, look at 18D, it should have protected him if he firmly believed what he said to be true and it was in good faith.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2016 at 6:15am

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 3:06am:

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Political speech should hold no lawful sanction.

If you want to really think about it, look at 18D, it should have protected him if he firmly believed what he said to be true and it was in good faith.



I think the court ruling that it was racial vilification means that it went past the area that 18D could protect.

if he firmly believed

The test goes to what an reasonable person would believe otherwise we could have nuts claiming to believe anything.

This is shown in the Bolt case, it wasn't about what he believed when it became obvious that what he had said was absolutely untrue.

Looking at the facts no reasonable person would believe what Bolt had said about the people he named, his story was made up of a series of fabrications that individually defamed a group of high profile Aboriginal Australians.

There may be some value in fine tuning 18C but it essence it is a good thing to ban racial vilification.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2016 at 6:18am

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 3:06am:

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Political speech should hold no lawful sanction.

If you want to really think about it, look at 18D, it should have protected him if he firmly believed what he said to be true and it was in good faith.


Yes but racial vilification is a different matter.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:13pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 6:18am:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 3:06am:

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Political speech should hold no lawful sanction.

If you want to really think about it, look at 18D, it should have protected him if he firmly believed what he said to be true and it was in good faith.


Yes but racial vilification is a different matter.


How is someone believing an historical event never took place, racial vilification?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:39pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 6:18am:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 3:06am:

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Political speech should hold no lawful sanction.

If you want to really think about it, look at 18D, it should have protected him if he firmly believed what he said to be true and it was in good faith.


Yes but racial vilification is a different matter.


How is someone believing an historical event never took place, racial vilification?



He obviously said more than that. I suspect that he would have had no problem with 18c had that been all he said.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:39pm

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 4:59pm:

Quote:
don't run away FD .... stand by your claims for once in your life.


Which claim would you like me to stand by?


Do you mind if I say, FD?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:40pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:39pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 6:18am:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 3:06am:

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Political speech should hold no lawful sanction.

If you want to really think about it, look at 18D, it should have protected him if he firmly believed what he said to be true and it was in good faith.


Yes but racial vilification is a different matter.


How is someone believing an historical event never took place, racial vilification?



He obviously said more than that. I suspect that he would have had no problem with 18c had that been all he said.


If it's obvious perhaps you could show me? The contempt was for "denying" it happened.

Edit: Or rather not taking down data he posted denying it happened, which is pretty much the same thing.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:58pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:40pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:39pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 6:18am:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 3:06am:

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Political speech should hold no lawful sanction.

If you want to really think about it, look at 18D, it should have protected him if he firmly believed what he said to be true and it was in good faith.


Yes but racial vilification is a different matter.


How is someone believing an historical event never took place, racial vilification?



He obviously said more than that. I suspect that he would have had no problem with 18c had that been all he said.


If it's obvious perhaps you could show me? The contempt was for "denying" it happened.

Edit: Or rather not taking down data he posted denying it happened, which is pretty much the same thing.


The complaint and finding was that he had:


Quote:
published "malicious anti-Jewish propaganda" on its website. In 2002

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:04pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:58pm:

Quote:
published "malicious anti-Jewish propaganda" on its website. In 2002


Why is denying an event in history malicious? He's a nut job and a Jew.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:08pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:04pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:58pm:

Quote:
published "malicious anti-Jewish propaganda" on its website. In 2002


Why is denying an event in history malicious? He's a nut job and a Jew.


I suspect that the web site said a great deal more than just denying the holocaust.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:12pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:08pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:04pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 8:58pm:

Quote:
published "malicious anti-Jewish propaganda" on its website. In 2002


Why is denying an event in history malicious? He's a nut job and a Jew.


I suspect that the web site said a great deal more than just denying the holocaust.


We can't rely on suspicions. Do you have more?
Remember the data that "denied the holocaust" was the stuff he was taken to task for. Surely if there was worse material it would be public.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:26pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:12pm:
We can't rely on suspicions. Do you have more?


Why don't you go and look at the ruling ? Then you would know as much about it as I do ?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2002/1150.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=title%20(%20%22toben%22%20)


this bit is interesting:


Quote:
As the respondent filed no defence in the proceeding there was no occasion for the Court to consider whether the respondent's conduct fell within any exemption to the operation of s 18C


The idiot didn't contest the charge so the exemptions didn't come into play.


Quote:
At this site the Adelaide Institute has published material which constitutes malicious anti-Jewish propaganda. Not only does the home page contain denial of the Nazi Genocide of the Jews and blames Jews for the crimes of Stalin, but in other directories, particularly the `Adelaide Institute Update', material is reproduced which makes statement such as `the well-connected Jewish Loby [sic] wants to signal to those who are aware of their various rackets and schemes, that if you "cross" them as an individual, or as a nation, then they will boycott, hound, persecute and ultimately punish you, using Gentile Government agencies and Gentile Taxpayers money' and `one day, in the not too distant future the tables might well have turned and the aroused Gentile world will mete out Justice and Vengeance ...'.


More of an anti Jew rant than a factual argument to refute the holocaust ?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:46pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:26pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:12pm:
We can't rely on suspicions. Do you have more?


Why don't you go and look at the ruling ? Then you would know as much about it as I do ?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2002/1150.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=title%20(%20%22toben%22%20)


this bit is interesting:


Quote:
As the respondent filed no defence in the proceeding there was no occasion for the Court to consider whether the respondent's conduct fell within any exemption to the operation of s 18C


The idiot didn't contest the charge so the exemptions didn't come into play.

[quote]At this site the Adelaide Institute has published material which constitutes malicious anti-Jewish propaganda. Not only does the home page contain denial of the Nazi Genocide of the Jews and blames Jews for the crimes of Stalin, but in other directories, particularly the `Adelaide Institute Update', material is reproduced which makes statement such as `the well-connected Jewish Loby [sic] wants to signal to those who are aware of their various rackets and schemes, that if you "cross" them as an individual, or as a nation, then they will boycott, hound, persecute and ultimately punish you, using Gentile Government agencies and Gentile Taxpayers money' and `one day, in the not too distant future the tables might well have turned and the aroused Gentile world will mete out Justice and Vengeance ...'.


More of an anti Jew rant than a factual argument to refute the holocaust ?[/quote]

A nut job. I still don't read malice, especially since he is Jewish, a homey can call a homey out but a cracker can't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw
It's the PC way.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:15pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:26pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:12pm:
We can't rely on suspicions. Do you have more?


Why don't you go and look at the ruling ? Then you would know as much about it as I do ?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2002/1150.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=title%20(%20%22toben%22%20)


this bit is interesting:


Quote:
As the respondent filed no defence in the proceeding there was no occasion for the Court to consider whether the respondent's conduct fell within any exemption to the operation of s 18C


The idiot didn't contest the charge so the exemptions didn't come into play.

[quote]At this site the Adelaide Institute has published material which constitutes malicious anti-Jewish propaganda. Not only does the home page contain denial of the Nazi Genocide of the Jews and blames Jews for the crimes of Stalin, but in other directories, particularly the `Adelaide Institute Update', material is reproduced which makes statement such as `the well-connected Jewish Loby [sic] wants to signal to those who are aware of their various rackets and schemes, that if you "cross" them as an individual, or as a nation, then they will boycott, hound, persecute and ultimately punish you, using Gentile Government agencies and Gentile Taxpayers money' and `one day, in the not too distant future the tables might well have turned and the aroused Gentile world will mete out Justice and Vengeance ...'.


More of an anti Jew rant than a factual argument to refute the holocaust ?


A nut job. I still don't read malice, especially since he is Jewish, a homey can call a homey out but a cracker can't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw
It's the PC way.[/quote]

He was born in Germany moved to Australia when he was 10 and is now an Australian citizen. He isn't Jewish.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:25pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:26pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 9:12pm:
We can't rely on suspicions. Do you have more?


Why don't you go and look at the ruling ? Then you would know as much about it as I do ?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2002/1150.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=title%20(%20%22toben%22%20)


this bit is interesting:


Quote:
As the respondent filed no defence in the proceeding there was no occasion for the Court to consider whether the respondent's conduct fell within any exemption to the operation of s 18C


The idiot didn't contest the charge so the exemptions didn't come into play.

[quote]At this site the Adelaide Institute has published material which constitutes malicious anti-Jewish propaganda. Not only does the home page contain denial of the Nazi Genocide of the Jews and blames Jews for the crimes of Stalin, but in other directories, particularly the `Adelaide Institute Update', material is reproduced which makes statement such as `the well-connected Jewish Loby [sic] wants to signal to those who are aware of their various rackets and schemes, that if you "cross" them as an individual, or as a nation, then they will boycott, hound, persecute and ultimately punish you, using Gentile Government agencies and Gentile Taxpayers money' and `one day, in the not too distant future the tables might well have turned and the aroused Gentile world will mete out Justice and Vengeance ...'.


More of an anti Jew rant than a factual argument to refute the holocaust ?


A nut job. I still don't read malice, especially since he is Jewish, a homey can call a homey out but a cracker can't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw
It's the PC way.[/quote]

He didn't really give the court much choice when he didn't contest the charge. I don't believe that he is Jewish but he could have made that argument had he wanted.

He chose to not defend the case and then chose to be in contempt of the court.

He was that embarrassingly foolish that they should have doubled the sentence just for him being so stupid.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:26pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:15pm:
He was born in Germany moved to Australia when he was 10 and is now an Australian citizen. He isn't Jewish.


Toben is a Jewish name. Did he adopt it or was he born with it?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:45pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:26pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:15pm:
He was born in Germany moved to Australia when he was 10 and is now an Australian citizen. He isn't Jewish.


Toben is a Jewish name. Did he adopt it or was he born with it?


He was born in Germany. I would think that makes him German. He moved to Australia at 10 and has taken up Australian citizenship that makes him Australian.

He has never been Jewish as far as I can tell, maybe his great grandparents were ?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:59pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:45pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:26pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:15pm:
He was born in Germany moved to Australia when he was 10 and is now an Australian citizen. He isn't Jewish.


Toben is a Jewish name. Did he adopt it or was he born with it?


He was born in Germany. I would think that makes him German. He moved to Australia at 10 and has taken up Australian citizenship that makes him Australian.

He has never been Jewish as far as I can tell, maybe his great grandparents were ?


So the Germans of Jewish heritage have no claim to discrimination during WWII as they were Germans not Jews? Why all the hubbub then? Why are they upset with him? Germans killed Germans and Poles etc, not Jews.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 25th, 2016 at 5:34am

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Is he still free to violate the court order?


Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 6:15am:
The test goes to what an reasonable person would believe otherwise we could have nuts claiming to believe anything.


The horror. Imagine if people claimed to believe were are free to do something, despite getting jailed for doing it.


Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 6:15am:
There may be some value in fine tuning 18C but it essence it is a good thing to ban racial vilification.


How would you "fine tune" it? Can you give any examples of outcomes from 18c that you disagree with?


Quote:
At this site the Adelaide Institute has published material which constitutes malicious anti-Jewish propaganda. Not only does the home page contain denial of the Nazi Genocide of the Jews and blames Jews for the crimes of Stalin, but in other directories, particularly the `Adelaide Institute Update', material is reproduced which makes statement such as `the well-connected Jewish Loby [sic] wants to signal to those who are aware of their various rackets and schemes, that if you "cross" them as an individual, or as a nation, then they will boycott, hound, persecute and ultimately punish you, using Gentile Government agencies and Gentile Taxpayers money' and `one day, in the not too distant future the tables might well have turned and the aroused Gentile world will mete out Justice and Vengeance ...'.


Sounds like he was predicting his own jailing. Does that mean he was right all along and should get a pardon?


Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:15pm:
He was born in Germany moved to Australia when he was 10 and is now an Australian citizen. He isn't Jewish.



Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:45pm:
He was born in Germany. I would think that makes him German. He moved to Australia at 10 and has taken up Australian citizenship that makes him Australian.

He has never been Jewish as far as I can tell, maybe his great grandparents were ?


;D Classic logic from the supporters of 18c.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 26th, 2016 at 2:44am

freediver wrote on Dec 25th, 2016 at 5:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Is he still free to violate the court order?


No, let's look at the first words of 18c


Quote:
It is unlawful


Now let's look at the Sex Discrimination Act 1984


Quote:
It is unlawful


So imagine a co-worker put something up sexually degrading to a woman. And a court ordered he take said degradation down. Co-worker ignores order and is locked up for contempt of court.

Is his right to free speech impinged?

(Again you fail to answer the question, your credibility is becoming less and less. Once again should you be able to say what you want without consequence?)

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 26th, 2016 at 8:55am
Was that an answer to the question Raven, or did you accidentally slip a no into your ramblings?

Is he still free to violate the court order?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 27th, 2016 at 2:46am
Read it again (hint focus on the first word)

Should you be able to say what you want without consequence?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 27th, 2016 at 7:19am

freediver wrote on Dec 25th, 2016 at 5:34am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 10:45pm:
He was born in Germany. I would think that makes him German. He moved to Australia at 10 and has taken up Australian citizenship that makes him Australian.

He has never been Jewish as far as I can tell, maybe his great grandparents were ?


;D Classic logic from the supporters of 18c.


I am happy to be corrected but it seems to me that you can hardly claim every nationality.

Besides I can find no reference to this guy considering himself to have Jewish ties.

If so it would very likely have got him off in this case had he used that argument which he didn't.

In fact he didn't fight the case at all, he made no argument and then ignored the result.

freediver has put more effort into this case than the guy who was sent to prison.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 27th, 2016 at 7:22am

freediver wrote on Dec 25th, 2016 at 5:34am:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 6:15am:
There may be some value in fine tuning 18C but it essence it is a good thing to ban racial vilification.


How would you "fine tune" it? Can you give any examples of outcomes from 18c that you disagree with?


I would think that making a change to improve it would be up to the people who think there is something wrong with it ?  That isn't me.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 27th, 2016 at 7:34am

freediver wrote on Dec 25th, 2016 at 5:34am:

Quote:
At this site the Adelaide Institute has published material which constitutes malicious anti-Jewish propaganda. Not only does the home page contain denial of the Nazi Genocide of the Jews and blames Jews for the crimes of Stalin, but in other directories, particularly the `Adelaide Institute Update', material is reproduced which makes statement such as `the well-connected Jewish Loby [sic] wants to signal to those who are aware of their various rackets and schemes, that if you "cross" them as an individual, or as a nation, then they will boycott, hound, persecute and ultimately punish you, using Gentile Government agencies and Gentile Taxpayers money' and `one day, in the not too distant future the tables might well have turned and the aroused Gentile world will mete out Justice and Vengeance ...'.


Sounds like he was predicting his own jailing. Does that mean he was right all along and should get a pardon?


No he wasn't - the reference to  "world will mete out Justice and Vengeance" was referring to action against Jews.

Apart from that lovely threat the other comments were racially based accusations about a range of issues from blaming Jews for Stalin's crimes to rackets schemes persecution of anyone to stand up to them.

None of this relates to denial of the Holocaust and shows a genuine racially based attack on the Jewish people.

This is where 18c is breached not denial of the Genocide.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 27th, 2016 at 8:26am

Raven wrote on Dec 26th, 2016 at 2:44am:

freediver wrote on Dec 25th, 2016 at 5:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 24th, 2016 at 2:47am:

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 10:34am:

Raven wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 4:20pm:
Freediver he is still free to hold and express those views. All the court did was order a specific part of his website be removed. It happens everyday, especially in cases of libel. He can still get online or hold public appearances.


So you don't think ordering part of his website removed infringes on his freedom of speech?


No because he is still free to express his views. Your inability to grasp the fact that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence is a continuous source of amazement.

Let's see if you can answer the question this time.

Do you believe you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequence?


Is he still free to violate the court order?


No, let's look at the first words of 18c


Quote:
It is unlawful


Now let's look at the Sex Discrimination Act 1984

[quote]It is unlawful


So imagine a co-worker put something up sexually degrading to a woman. And a court ordered he take said degradation down. Co-worker ignores order and is locked up for contempt of court.

Is his right to free speech impinged?

(Again you fail to answer the question, your credibility is becoming less and less. Once again should you be able to say what you want without consequence?)
[/quote]

So you think being locked up for your opinion does not infringe on your freedom of speech? We are free to say what we want, even when it comes with a risk of jail time?


Quote:
I am happy to be corrected but it seems to me that you can hardly claim every nationality.


So he can't be Jewish and German at the same time?


Quote:
I would think that making a change to improve it would be up to the people who think there is something wrong with it ?  That isn't me.


So you think there is nothing wrong with it, but you do see value in fine tuning it? Are you trying to have a bet each way?


Quote:
This is where 18c is breached not denial of the Genocide.


Can you back this up at all?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 27th, 2016 at 8:47am

freediver wrote on Dec 23rd, 2016 at 4:59pm:

Quote:
don't run away FD .... stand by your claims for once in your life.


Which claim would you like me to stand by?



once again, you didn't answer. No doubt an oversight on your part. I'll ask again.


how exactly was Tobin forced to ignore the court order?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 27th, 2016 at 9:50am

freediver wrote on Dec 27th, 2016 at 8:26am:

Quote:
I am happy to be corrected but it seems to me that you can hardly claim every nationality.


So he can't be Jewish and German at the same time?


You forgot Australian - he is definitely Australian.

What I am saying is if he wants to claim to be Jewish that is ok with me but there is no indication that he does. In fact his hate writings would indicate that he dislikes the Jewish people.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 27th, 2016 at 9:57am

freediver wrote on Dec 27th, 2016 at 8:26am:

Quote:
I would think that making a change to improve it would be up to the people who think there is something wrong with it ?  That isn't me.


So you think there is nothing wrong with it, but you do see value in fine tuning it? Are you trying to have a bet each way?


Not at all, most things can be improved, if someone can point out an improvement I will support it.

An example would be in the implementation - the case with the kids was managed abominably. This isn't the fault of the act itself but how it is managed.

Cases like that one should be handled quickly and cheaply.

There was no need for the process that was used and n it was unbelievable that the case got to court at all. It should have been thrown out in the early stages or at worst a small slap on the wrist and a bit of finger pointing at all concerned.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 27th, 2016 at 10:43am

freediver wrote on Dec 27th, 2016 at 8:26am:

Quote:
This is where 18c is breached not denial of the Genocide.


Can you back this up at all?


Here is the finding once again, my assumption was again incorrect. Denial of the Genocide was ruled to be part of the problem.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2002/1150.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=title%20(%20%22toben%22%20)



Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 27th, 2016 at 3:03pm
Do you see a problem with someone ending up in jail for denying the holocaust?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 27th, 2016 at 8:59pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27th, 2016 at 3:03pm:
Do you see a problem with someone ending up in jail for denying the holocaust?


do you see a problem with allowing people to defy court orders?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 28th, 2016 at 12:06am
Freediver should you be able to say what you want without consequence?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 28th, 2016 at 12:35am
Cat got your tongue?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 28th, 2016 at 8:57am

Raven wrote on Dec 28th, 2016 at 12:06am:
Freediver should you be able to say what you want without consequence?


We have been over this before Raven. Of course there should be consequences. Your error is assuming that a consequence of ending up in jail for your opinion naturally comes with freedom of speech. It is the opposite.

Now that you have (finally, after about ten threads and dozens of pages) realised that Toben was in fact jailed for his opinion, can you say whether you see a problem with being jailed for denying the holocaust?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 28th, 2016 at 9:51am
Don't want to answer the question?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 29th, 2016 at 2:49am

freediver wrote on Dec 28th, 2016 at 8:57am:

Raven wrote on Dec 28th, 2016 at 12:06am:
Freediver should you be able to say what you want without consequence?


We have been over this before Raven. Of course there should be consequences. Your error is assuming that a consequence of ending up in jail for your opinion naturally comes with freedom of speech. It is the opposite.

Now that you have (finally, after about ten threads and dozens of pages) realised that Toben was in fact jailed for his opinion, can you say whether you see a problem with being jailed for denying the holocaust?


The only opinion he was jailed for was the opinion that he could ignore a court order, he was wrong.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by gandalf on Dec 29th, 2016 at 7:32am
Raven, do you think the court order itself was wrong?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:27am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 7:32am:
Raven, do you think the court order itself was wrong?


now that argument would make more sense than his repeated attempts to redefine Tobins charges.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:35am
John, do you think the court order itself was wrong?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:37am

freediver wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:35am:
John, do you think the court order itself was wrong?


I can see an argument for that but I haven't read the ruling so at this stage, I don't know.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:48am

John Smith wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:37am:

freediver wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:35am:
John, do you think the court order itself was wrong?


I can see an argument for that but I haven't read the ruling so at this stage, I don't know.


If you don't know anything about it, can you explain why you said this?


John Smith wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 3:54pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 12th, 2016 at 1:49pm:
John Smith had a rather stupid suggestion that we respond by trying to get rid of contempt of court legislation rather than 18c (again, see the opening post for quotes)



simply highlighting how stupid your idea is. You want to ban 18c because it resulted in someone going to jail who you believe shouldn't have. Continue that logic through to other laws and you'll see how stupid that train of thought is.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:49am

freediver wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:48am:
If you don't know anything about it, can you explain why you said this?


I don't have to have read the ruling to know that he was jailed for breaching a court order and not for breaching 18c.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:50am
And what caused that court order John? Please "continue that logic through" for us.

Commence tapdancing now.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:53am

freediver wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:50am:
And what caused that court order John?

Commence tapdancing now.


Do you like going around in circles FD?  This has been covered numerous times

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:54am
Don't be shy John. You have only ever run away from this. You, Raven, Aussie and all the other supporters of 18c can only repeat your idiotic mantras about the court order happening in a vacuum of causation. You all dodge this question.


Quote:
simply highlighting how stupid your idea is. You want to ban 18c because it resulted in someone going to jail who you believe shouldn't have. Continue that logic through to other laws and you'll see how stupid that train of thought is.


What does this mean John? Why is it stupid?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:56am

freediver wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 9:54am:
Don't be shy John. You have only ever run away from this.


Unlike you, I haven't run away from anything. We've covered all this many times.

Now that you mentioned running away, I'm still waiting for you to tell me how Tobin was forced to ignore a court order


this is your cue to run away now FD,

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Raven on Dec 30th, 2016 at 5:22am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 29th, 2016 at 7:32am:
Raven, do you think the court order itself was wrong?


No, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence.

He is still free to espouse his views, have you been to his website lately?


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:18am
I have not been to his website. Are you saying he is now free to say the things that previously landed him in jail?

Or are you saying his freedom of speech is not limited because he is still permitted to have a website, even if he cannot publish all the content he wishes?

If the government told you what you can and cannot say, would you say you had freedom of speech up until they cut out your tongue?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:56am

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:18am:
Are you saying he is now free to say the things that previously landed him in jail?



as long as he doesn't lie, yes.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:09am

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:56am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:18am:
Are you saying he is now free to say the things that previously landed him in jail?



as long as he doesn't lie, yes.


Making it up as you go again eh?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:10am

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:09am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:56am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:18am:
Are you saying he is now free to say the things that previously landed him in jail?



as long as he doesn't lie, yes.


Making it up as you go again eh?


learning from you.

Are you ready to explain how Tobin was forced to ignore the court order ?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by AiA on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:09am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:56am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:18am:
Are you saying he is now free to say the things that previously landed him in jail?



as long as he doesn't lie, yes.


Making it up as you go again eh?


I'm confused here, how can someone with their head jammed so far up their ass manage to type?
You must be dictating, right?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am
I am happy to back up anything I have said.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.


that's why I have asked you a dozen times and you have always run away :D :D

anytime you feel like explaining how he was forced to ignore the court order, feel free. Or do I need to ask again?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am

AiA wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I'm confused here, how can someone with their head jammed so far up their ass manage to type?


typing's not difficult, it can't be if you can manage it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:37am

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from?


No worries, FD. Will you answer my question?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.


that's why I have asked you a dozen times and you have always run away :D :D

anytime you feel like explaining how he was forced to ignore the court order, feel free. Or do I need to ask again?


I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from? Do you think Toben is free to offer his heartfelt opinion on Jews?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2016 at 1:08pm
FD, will you answer whether you will answer a question?

Or will you continue to evade?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2016 at 1:16pm
FD?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 3:45pm

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm:
I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

you are running away. If you wanted the quote you would ave answered the first timne I asked when the quote was provided. I'm not going to search through 5 different threads to try and find your quote.
I suggested that Tobin freely chose to break his court order, you in your idiotic fashion, tried to ridicule my comment. If you don't think he did it freely then explain how he was forced to?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 3:54pm
there you go FD ... found the quote for you, it happened to be on this thread. With 5 different threads on the same topic, I wasn't sure where it was.



John Smith wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 2:46pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:29pm:
yet still insist Toben was free to ignore the court order,


I'm curious, how exactly was he forced to ignore the court order?


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2016 at 4:18pm
Oh look, FD's gone.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:55pm

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.


that's why I have asked you a dozen times and you have always run away :D :D

anytime you feel like explaining how he was forced to ignore the court order, feel free. Or do I need to ask again?


I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from? Do you think Toben is free to offer his heartfelt opinion on Jews?


Do you think he was entitled to say that the Jews were the cause of Stalin's atrocities ?  That comment by itself would have been enough to trigger 18C. 

How about the threats he made against the Jews when he said there will be an uprising against them. Also probably interesting in terms of 18C. Neither have anything to do with denying the Holocaust.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:57pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 3:45pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm:
I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

you are running away. If you wanted the quote you would ave answered the first timne I asked when the quote was provided. I'm not going to search through 5 different threads to try and find your quote.
I suggested that Tobin freely chose to break his court order, you in your idiotic fashion, tried to ridicule my comment. If you don't think he did it freely then explain how he was forced to?


you are running away.


It is difficult to tell over the internet, he may have been walking fairly slowly.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:59pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:55pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.


that's why I have asked you a dozen times and you have always run away :D :D

anytime you feel like explaining how he was forced to ignore the court order, feel free. Or do I need to ask again?


I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from? Do you think Toben is free to offer his heartfelt opinion on Jews?


Do you think he was entitled to say that the Jews were the cause of Stalin's atrocities ? 


This is question 3, by my count, FD - on this page alone.

You won't answer JS, you won't take a question from moi. Will you answer Dnarever?

That's question 4.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:03pm

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:59pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:55pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.


that's why I have asked you a dozen times and you have always run away :D :D

anytime you feel like explaining how he was forced to ignore the court order, feel free. Or do I need to ask again?


I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from? Do you think Toben is free to offer his heartfelt opinion on Jews?


Do you think he was entitled to say that the Jews were the cause of Stalin's atrocities ? 


This is question 3, by my count, FD - on this page alone.

You won't answer JS, you won't take a question from moi. Will you answer Dnarever?

That's question 4.


FD may be taking a well earned break besides nobody has to answer anything.

Comment on what you want and answer what you feel like answering, it's not compulsory.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:10pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:03pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:59pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:55pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.


that's why I have asked you a dozen times and you have always run away :D :D

anytime you feel like explaining how he was forced to ignore the court order, feel free. Or do I need to ask again?


I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from? Do you think Toben is free to offer his heartfelt opinion on Jews?


Do you think he was entitled to say that the Jews were the cause of Stalin's atrocities ? 


This is question 3, by my count, FD - on this page alone.

You won't answer JS, you won't take a question from moi. Will you answer Dnarever?

That's question 4.


FD may be taking a well earned break besides nobody has to answer anything.

Comment on what you want and answer what you feel like answering, it's not compulsory.


Unless it is FD who asks.  He will store all his questions up and then 'quote bomb' the Thread with them.

The bloke is desperate to defend this thing he calls 'freedom of speech' yet he refuses many requests that he define what is at the core, the very essence of all these Threads......'freedom of speech.'

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:10pm

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:03pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:59pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:55pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.


that's why I have asked you a dozen times and you have always run away :D :D

anytime you feel like explaining how he was forced to ignore the court order, feel free. Or do I need to ask again?


I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from? Do you think Toben is free to offer his heartfelt opinion on Jews?


Do you think he was entitled to say that the Jews were the cause of Stalin's atrocities ? 


This is question 3, by my count, FD - on this page alone.

You won't answer JS, you won't take a question from moi. Will you answer Dnarever?

That's question 4.


FD may be taking a well earned break besides nobody has to answer anything.

Comment on what you want and answer what you feel like answering, it's not compulsory.


Is this true, FD?

Question 5.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:14pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:10pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:03pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:59pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:55pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.


that's why I have asked you a dozen times and you have always run away :D :D

anytime you feel like explaining how he was forced to ignore the court order, feel free. Or do I need to ask again?


I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from? Do you think Toben is free to offer his heartfelt opinion on Jews?


Do you think he was entitled to say that the Jews were the cause of Stalin's atrocities ? 


This is question 3, by my count, FD - on this page alone.

You won't answer JS, you won't take a question from moi. Will you answer Dnarever?

That's question 4.


FD may be taking a well earned break besides nobody has to answer anything.

Comment on what you want and answer what you feel like answering, it's not compulsory.


Unless it is FD who asks.  He will store all his questions up and then 'quote bomb' the Thread with them.


And if you miss one, FD asks you again. If you miss that, he starts a new thread to ask it. And if you neglect to answer that, he puts you in the Spineless apologist thread, FD's new version of the Wiki, where he writes you up for evasion.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Dnarever on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:31pm

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:14pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:10pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:03pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:59pm:

Dnarever wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:55pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 12:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:17am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 11:12am:
I am happy to back up anything I have said.


that's why I have asked you a dozen times and you have always run away :D :D

anytime you feel like explaining how he was forced to ignore the court order, feel free. Or do I need to ask again?


I am not running away. I am declining to answer another of your idiotic questions that makes no sense. If you want me to explain something I have said, quote it.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from? Do you think Toben is free to offer his heartfelt opinion on Jews?


Do you think he was entitled to say that the Jews were the cause of Stalin's atrocities ? 


This is question 3, by my count, FD - on this page alone.

You won't answer JS, you won't take a question from moi. Will you answer Dnarever?

That's question 4.


FD may be taking a well earned break besides nobody has to answer anything.

Comment on what you want and answer what you feel like answering, it's not compulsory.


Unless it is FD who asks.  He will store all his questions up and then 'quote bomb' the Thread with them.


And if you miss one, FD asks you again. If you miss that, he starts a new thread to ask it. And if you neglect to answer that, he puts you in the Spineless apologist thread, FD's new version of the Wiki, where he writes you up for evasion.


he puts you in the Spineless apologist thread


I wondered what they one was, I don't think I have been there.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Frank on Dec 30th, 2016 at 8:42pm

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:14pm:
And if you miss one, FD asks you again. If you miss that, he starts a new thread to ask it. And if you neglect to answer that, he puts you in the Spineless apologist thread, FD's new version of the Wiki, where he writes you up for evasion.




Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:54pm:
Oh, I jab a fair bit of your stool.

Miam miam.


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:26pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 3:54pm:
there you go FD ... found the quote for you, it happened to be on this thread. With 5 different threads on the same topic, I wasn't sure where it was.



John Smith wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 2:46pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 22nd, 2016 at 1:29pm:
yet still insist Toben was free to ignore the court order,


I'm curious, how exactly was he forced to ignore the court order?


Your question is not looking any less stupid John. If you want me to back up something I have actually said, quote me actually saying it. Repeating your initial confusion does not count.

Where did you get the "as long as he doesn't lie" bit from? Just making it up as you go along?


Quote:
Do you think he was entitled to say that the Jews were the cause of Stalin's atrocities ?


I think he should be free to say it. You?


Quote:
Unless it is FD who asks.  He will store all his questions up and then 'quote bomb' the Thread with them.


No Aussie. I will "quote bomb" the endless stream of idiotic nonsense that you post. You will respond by complaining that it had a different meaning in a different time and a different context, as you always do, then run away when asked to explain how it is different. Basically you are ashamed of your own words, with good reason.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:31pm
is this where you shove your head up your arse and pretend you didn't say it what you said FD?

If tobin wasn't free to ignore the court order, as you implied, what is the alternative?   


Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:32pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:31pm:
is this where you shove your head up your arse and pretend you didn't say it what you said FD?

If tobin wasn't free to ignore the court order, as you implied, what is the alternative?   


That he gets put in jail for it, as we were discussing at the time. This isn't really that complicated John. Do try to keep up.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:37pm

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:31pm:
is this where you shove your head up your arse and pretend you didn't say it what you said FD?

If tobin wasn't free to ignore the court order, as you implied, what is the alternative?   


That he gets put in jail for it, as we were discussing at the time. This isn't really that complicated John. Do try to keep up.


At least you finally admit that he got put in jail for ignoring it and not because of 18c.

You implied he wasn't free to ignore the court order. Getting put in jail was the result of his ignoring it, not the cause.   He was free to decide whether or not he ignored the court order. He did what he did knowing their would be consequences of his actions and still he did it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:31pm:
is this where you shove your head up your arse and pretend you didn't say it what you said FD?

If tobin wasn't free to ignore the court order, as you implied, what is the alternative?   


That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.

Freedoms should not entail governmental consequences for expressing them.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:37pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:31pm:
is this where you shove your head up your arse and pretend you didn't say it what you said FD?

If tobin wasn't free to ignore the court order, as you implied, what is the alternative?   


That he gets put in jail for it, as we were discussing at the time. This isn't really that complicated John. Do try to keep up.


At least you finally admit that he got put in jail for ignoring it and not because of 18c.

You implied he wasn't free to ignore the court order. Getting put in jail was the result of his ignoring it, not the cause.   He was free to decide whether or not he ignored the court order. He did what he did knowing their would be consequences of his actions and still he did it.


Sorry to butt in.....almost......Mr Smith....I've been waiting for that ever since you chipped some poor right wing schmuck for their lousy 'English.'

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:43pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:37pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:31pm:
is this where you shove your head up your arse and pretend you didn't say it what you said FD?

If tobin wasn't free to ignore the court order, as you implied, what is the alternative?   


That he gets put in jail for it, as we were discussing at the time. This isn't really that complicated John. Do try to keep up.


At least you finally admit that he got put in jail for ignoring it and not because of 18c.

You implied he wasn't free to ignore the court order. Getting put in jail was the result of his ignoring it, not the cause.   He was free to decide whether or not he ignored the court order. He did what he did knowing their would be consequences of his actions and still he did it.


Sorry to butt in.....almost......Mr Smith....I've been waiting for that ever since you chipped some poor right wing schmuck for their lousy 'English.'


of course you have ... you've always been a droll, petty, sniveling little twerp

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.


If there are sanctions against it, it is not a freedom.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.


And I thought Aussie was just asking a stupid question when he demanded a definition of freedom. No wonder John doesn't get any of it.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Aussie on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:43pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:37pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:31pm:
is this where you shove your head up your arse and pretend you didn't say it what you said FD?

If tobin wasn't free to ignore the court order, as you implied, what is the alternative?   


That he gets put in jail for it, as we were discussing at the time. This isn't really that complicated John. Do try to keep up.


At least you finally admit that he got put in jail for ignoring it and not because of 18c.

You implied he wasn't free to ignore the court order. Getting put in jail was the result of his ignoring it, not the cause.   He was free to decide whether or not he ignored the court order. He did what he did knowing their would be consequences of his actions and still he did it.


Sorry to butt in.....almost......Mr Smith....I've been waiting for that ever since you chipped some poor right wing schmuck for their lousy 'English.'


of course you have ... you've always been a droll, petty, sniveling little twerp


Not me, .....you chose to be the smart arse spelling Nazi (to denigrate a rightie here) and I have just delivered the justice you deserve.  I'll do the same every time, just for you.  Believe me.

;)



Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:34am

Frank wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:14pm:
And if you miss one, FD asks you again. If you miss that, he starts a new thread to ask it. And if you neglect to answer that, he puts you in the Spineless apologist thread, FD's new version of the Wiki, where he writes you up for evasion.




Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:54pm:
Oh, I jab a fair bit of your stool.

Miam miam.


Frank's written me up, FD. What say you?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:36am

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.


And I thought Aussie was just asking a stupid question when he demanded a definition of freedom. No wonder John doesn't get any of it.


Can I ask you a question, FD?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:43am

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:34am:

Frank wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:14pm:
And if you miss one, FD asks you again. If you miss that, he starts a new thread to ask it. And if you neglect to answer that, he puts you in the Spineless apologist thread, FD's new version of the Wiki, where he writes you up for evasion.




Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:54pm:
Oh, I jab a fair bit of your stool.

Miam miam.


Frank's written me up, FD. What say you?


As long he's not writing you off, Karnal.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:48am

Setanta wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:43am:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:34am:

Frank wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:14pm:
And if you miss one, FD asks you again. If you miss that, he starts a new thread to ask it. And if you neglect to answer that, he puts you in the Spineless apologist thread, FD's new version of the Wiki, where he writes you up for evasion.




Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:54pm:
Oh, I jab a fair bit of your stool.

Miam miam.


Frank's written me up, FD. What say you?


As long he's not writing you off, Karnal.


He'd never do that, Setanta. He needs my stool, you see.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Setanta on Dec 31st, 2016 at 1:01am

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:48am:

Setanta wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:43am:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:34am:

Frank wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 8:42pm:

Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:14pm:
And if you miss one, FD asks you again. If you miss that, he starts a new thread to ask it. And if you neglect to answer that, he puts you in the Spineless apologist thread, FD's new version of the Wiki, where he writes you up for evasion.




Mustapha_Khunt wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:54pm:
Oh, I jab a fair bit of your stool.

Miam miam.


Frank's written me up, FD. What say you?


As long he's not writing you off, Karnal.


He'd never do that, Setanta. He needs my stool, you see.


Mais oui! Everyone needs a stool to cock their leg on.
At least that's what that mini poodle next door thinks.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 31st, 2016 at 9:08am

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.


If there are sanctions against it, it is not a freedom.


you are free to make the choice to do so, not free from repercussions for doing so.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 31st, 2016 at 9:09am

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.


And I thought Aussie was just asking a stupid question when he demanded a definition of freedom. No wonder John doesn't get any of it.


a question you still haven't provided an answer to despite claiming you weren't running away.

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:23am

John Smith wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 9:09am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.


And I thought Aussie was just asking a stupid question when he demanded a definition of freedom. No wonder John doesn't get any of it.


a question you still haven't provided an answer to despite claiming you weren't running away.


John do you get awfully confused when people talk about freedom of speech and the law?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:39am

freediver wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:23am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 9:09am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.


And I thought Aussie was just asking a stupid question when he demanded a definition of freedom. No wonder John doesn't get any of it.


a question you still haven't provided an answer to despite claiming you weren't running away.


John do you get awfully confused when people talk about freedom of speech and the law?


no, do you get confused when asked direct questions? Your previous answer doesn't apply, that was the result of his decision, not the cause ... now answer the question and stop flapping around

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:44am

John Smith wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:39am:

freediver wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:23am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 9:09am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.


And I thought Aussie was just asking a stupid question when he demanded a definition of freedom. No wonder John doesn't get any of it.


a question you still haven't provided an answer to despite claiming you weren't running away.


John do you get awfully confused when people talk about freedom of speech and the law?


no, do you get confused when asked direct questions? Your previous answer doesn't apply, that was the result of his decision, not the cause ... now answer the question and stop flapping around


Do you know what people are talking about when they say the law restricts people's freedom?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by John Smith on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:47am

freediver wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:44am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:39am:

freediver wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 10:23am:

John Smith wrote on Dec 31st, 2016 at 9:09am:

freediver wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

John Smith wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Setanta wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:39pm:
That's a bit like saying you are free to murder. We have free murder in this country, you just have to face the consequences of expressing your freedom.



In the end we are ... most people don't like the consequences and don't do it.


And I thought Aussie was just asking a stupid question when he demanded a definition of freedom. No wonder John doesn't get any of it.


a question you still haven't provided an answer to despite claiming you weren't running away.


John do you get awfully confused when people talk about freedom of speech and the law?


no, do you get confused when asked direct questions? Your previous answer doesn't apply, that was the result of his decision, not the cause ... now answer the question and stop flapping around


Do you know what people are talking about when they say the law restricts people's freedom?


yes, laws are designed to restrict peoples freedoms, otherwise they wouldn't work. Why? Are you suddenly proposing that we abolish all laws? Or is it just the ones you don't agree with we should abolish?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by freediver on Dec 31st, 2016 at 11:22am
Do laws restrict our freedom to murder people?


Quote:
Why? Are you suddenly proposing that we abolish all laws?


Do you always ask such stupid questions when people start talking about freedom and the law?

Title: Re: Gerald Fredrick Töben - jailed for his opinion
Post by Karnal on Dec 31st, 2016 at 1:40pm
Can I ask you a question, FD?

Oh. I've forgotten what it is.

Cunning.

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