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Member Run Boards >> Islam >> judge Muslims by actions, not views? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1389655854 Message started by freediver on Jan 14th, 2014 at 9:30am |
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Title: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Jan 14th, 2014 at 9:30am
90% of this forum is Muslims and their apologists arguing that Islam and/or Muslims cannot possibly be judged by the actions of individual Muslims or of governments. So I was surprised to see Gandalf post this - in response to a survey of what Muslims actually think:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:56pm:
The context was Malaysia, where the majority of Muslims support executing apostates and stoning adulterers to death. When Gandalf talks about living in harmony, he means that the (61%) Muslim majority has established, through Malaysia's democracy, an oppressive state in which the government actively promotes Islam, tells people based on their race what their religion is, and sends apostates to "rehabilitation" camps where they are forced to dress and act like Muslims. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 14th, 2014 at 10:54am
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Yadda on Jan 14th, 2014 at 10:54am
Absolutely FD.
+++ Moslems sincerely want others [even those 'others' who are infidels], to think well of them, and of other moslems. And even a rabid moslem, is a virtuous person, in his own eyes, or in the eyes of a fellow moslem. That is the psyche, which moslems have, which is inculcated into the moslem mind. i.e. That the moslem is the virtuous person. Why so ? Because the moslem is unable to acknowledge [or to even see], the oppression which he [the moslem] seeks to impose upon the one who is not a moslem. You must understand :P , ISLAM is Allah's perfect religion. And moslems are perfected human beings - by the very state of being moslems. And that is the mindset which has been inculcated into psyche of moslems, from childhood. Look at all of the moslems in places like Syria, those moslems are the moslems who are doing 'good works' for Allah, and doing 'good works' for their religion. ...even as those moslems slaughter those persons [for example in Syria] who come into their power. You must understand :P .... The moslem, is the virtuous person, especially when he is slaughtering the rebellious infidel [...even if the 'infidel' who is being slaughtered considers himself [too] to be a 'rightly guided' moslem !! ]. ISLAM = = 'breaks' and corrupts the human psyche. gandalf no doubt, will publicly condemn the violence that is occurring in Syria - BEING COMMITTED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. But gandalf and other moslems present themselves as moslems who are unable to end the violence that is occurring in Syria BEING COMMITTED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. If not gandalf and if not the [worldwide] moslem community, then who should stop such violence - BEING COMMITTED IN THE NAME OF ISLAM ? But remember; The moslem is the virtuous person. :P "Ye [moslems] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors." Koran 3.110 "....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood." ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 14th, 2014 at 11:12am freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 9:30am:
90% of my posts have been arguing that muslims should be judged by how the majority of muslims behave. You are referencing a discussion in which it was pointed out that the vast majority of muslims vote for anti-hudud parties and live harmoniously with their non-muslim neighbours. freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 9:30am:
The context was you labelling people "little Hitler's" and making mysterious references to WWII imperial Japanese (which somehow wasn't drawing any sort of comparison - go figure :P), and generally demonizing an entire group of people because of how they responded in a survey. And you are "surprised" that I would dare suggest that given the demonstrated behaviour of the vast majority of Malays, your "little Hitler" label is a tad over the top - well colour me shocked :D |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 14th, 2014 at 7:59pm
".....judge Muslims by actions, not views?"
There is only one judge of persons, and it isn't us. It is the very Son of God that Muslims blaspheme: John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Nor can we know God's judgments on persons: Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Perhaps more constructive title would have been: "...judge Muslim's actions by their books", that prescribe what their behavior is supposed to be. For example if they are male and are not engaged in the imperialistic conquest of violent jihad, their behavior is hypocritical, according to the behavior that is prescribed for them by their books. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 14th, 2014 at 8:41pm Quote:
The majority of Malaysian Muslims are responsible for the backwards and oppressive laws of Malaysia. Quote:
The two major parties are anti-hudud because it is not in their interest to be pro-hudud, as it would split the Muslim community nearly right down the middle and turn the less barbaric Muslims towards other minority groups for protection. An election is not a referendum on a single issue, especially in first-past-the-post elections where there is a strong disincentive against voting for minor parties. Putting apostates into rehabilitation camps is not living in harmony. It is naked, vulgar oppression, and only a Muslim would even think to spin it any other way. Quote:
By this Gandalf means that they want to stone adulterers to death - one of the most barbaric punishments you can think of, as well as executing apostates. But we mustn't think badly of them for this. We must instead make up excuses for why they don't really think what they say they think. Quote:
The Nazis did not slaughter any Jews - until they started slaughtering them. The vast majority of Nazis lived harmoniously with their Jewish neighbours, until the jackboots came and took them away while they pretended not to notice. The comparison is entirely appropriate and anyone with any foresight and decency would be worried about the path Malaysia is taking. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 15th, 2014 at 3:43am freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 8:41pm:
"Little Hitler" is exactly what the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem WAS, with several Islamic SS divisions and and Islamic Panzer division in Hitler's army: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sk3fKY9PhY http://www.zionismchristian.com/hitler_and_mufti.htm |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by wally1 on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:04am Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 3:43am:
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:26am freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 8:41pm:
Oh really? So why can't we apply your "2/3rds of Malaysians oppose" crap to these laws then? Given the pages and pages of lecturing about elections not ever being referendums on single issues, and the layers of obscurity in the Malaysian election system, the lack of press freedom of etc etc, how do you propose to spin those laws as being the responsibility of "the majority of Malaysian Muslims"? freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 8:41pm:
The number of actual rehabilitation camp cases can be counted on one hand. The fact is, as vulgar as they are, they only come up in cases where the person is attempting to "officialize" their apostasy - either by changing their identity card, or marrying a non-muslim - and to be clear, the vast majority of those cases do not result in rehabilitation camps. The reality is, it is a system that is easy to get around - get your husband to sign a paper saying they are muslim, or simply don't drag it through the courts insisting on an identity change. I'm not defending the system, but it is hardly "naked, vulgar oppression" in the scheme of things. And just to clarify, most apostates don't actually go to rehabilitation camps, they simply have their application to be legally recognised as a non-muslim rejected. freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 8:41pm:
Reality check please. The nazis started instituting laws and measures for state-sanctioned persecution of the jews immediately after taking power in 1933. The boycott of jewish businesses, banning them from civil service and the street violence happened straight away. Non-muslims in Malaysia get along just fine in the muslim-majority nation - always have always will. No persecution of any kind whatsoever - no hint of any future persecution of any kind whatsoever. To even mention Malaysia and the nazis in the same sentence is vile and deeply offensive. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Datalife on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:29am polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:26am:
LOL, jeebers, this forum is chockfull of luvvies calling the coalition Nazis. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Grendel on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:39am |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:02am
Gee thanks Grendel, I totally never knew about those websites. :P
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Yadda on Jan 15th, 2014 at 12:26pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:02am:
Actually gandalf, you are not the only individual who frequents the pages on this forum. There are lots of people who come to the OzPol pages who know very little about what moslems believe, and about what ISLAM actually promotes [and is]. And as regards; Quote:
I say we should listen less, to what moslems tell us [non-moslems] about ISLAM, and we should pay more attention to the behaviour of moslems; THE RELIGION OF PEACE http://thereligionofpeace.com/ ......and, we should listen to the communications that moslems have with other moslems; Google; Dispatches - Undercover Mosque, UK |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 15th, 2014 at 8:02pm wally1 wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:04am:
Here's a video titled "Hitler's Dupes" that might help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rcjzesMBbw Your reality is inverted because you follow the father of lies through his messenger Muhammad. Lies must be true, and truth must be lies. Good becomes evil and evil must be construed as good. Like Muhammad and his follower's beheading of innocent Jewish farm boys, and rape of their little sisters, moms and grandmothers, and theft of their property = good. Rather than investigating to find the truth, and engaging in critical thought, you likely let Greek sophist styled entertainers and antichrist liars like Ahmed Deedat do your thinking for you. Things that are evil and murderous, like the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad, Muhammad's followers must judge as good and right. A person obviously only has to be slightly familiar with the Gospel to judge whether Hitler and his genocide of Jews were Christian or not: John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Let alone that Hitler became whatever he thought he needed to be in the moment. What did he actually SAY? (Dec. 13th, 1941) “Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless…” (Oct. 19th, 1941) “The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.” (from July 11th – 12th, 1941) “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity….[an] invention of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.” (Feb. 27, 1942) “…but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…my regret will have been that I couldn't behold its demise.” You could have parroted Hitler yourself, in the preceding, couldn't you? But what kind of things do Christians actually DO? We help broken people around the world: https://www.mercyships.org/about-mercy-ships/the-result/ Help feed and educate kids around the world: http://www.compassion.com/ Help the homeless get back on their feet: http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/ We free Islam's slaves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1j8D1j9mEc But then you likely already know how the Gospel illustrates in no uncertain terms what a Christian is. Here's the second of the two greatest commands we are given: Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Just as reading the Quran and Hadith inform us as to what a Muslim is supposed to do, and what a Muslim is supposed to be, and thus exactly why the Mufti of Jerusalem joined Hitler in genocide of Jews: Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. Quran Surah 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods .....they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an... Sahih Bukhari B52 #177 Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "the Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." Like this Islamic Imam and true follower of Muhammad on Jews: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viOfDdkonu8 http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_and_jews.htm God gave us all the free will to follow the father of lies, or follow the truth. To follow the sinless Messiah, or his exact opposite in Muhammad. We are each held accountable for eternity, for the decision we make. I pray yours will become the right one, my friend. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:59pm Quote:
Killing apostates and stoning adulterers to death splits the Muslim community nearly down the middle. It is inevitable that the non-Muslims will be able to exercise their balance of power on those two issues. Presumably the less barbaric laws are easier to get through. That makes sense to you, doesn't it? it seems pretty obvious to me. Quote:
Well that's just great isn't it. To get around these barbaric laws, you "merely" have to get your spouse to sign up to Islam in a country where the majority of Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy. Quote:
You are talking about a country that has two parallel legal systems and in which one of the 13 states actually passed a law for the execution of apostates. The Muslims have so far been unable to do this, but are not at all unwilling. Quote:
Only if you are blind to what they are trying to do. Islam has been far more successful than Nazism precisely because it plays the long game when it has to, and Malaysia is a great example of this in action. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 20th, 2014 at 6:45pm freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:59pm:
Pure worthless conjecture - as usual. In any case, you avoided the whole question about how the majority of muslims are responsible for those laws - just after lecturing me for pages and pages about the how its next to impossible for the electorate to actually have a say on any one particular issue, elections never referendums on single issues yada yada yada. freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:59pm:
Whats "great" is that your fantasy about Malaysia being an oppressive society that routinely sends apostates to rehabilitation camps is just that - pure fantasy. The reality is completely different to your ignorant spin. freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:59pm:
I am talking about a country that cannot, by any measure of common sense and ratioanality be possibly compared to the nazis. We weren't talking about "the muslims" - nice attempt at deflection though. And I'll stake my arm and leg that not one person will ever be executed for apostasy or stoned for adultery in Malaysia. freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:59pm:
::) no more sensible than the rantings of a raving lunatic I'm afraid FD. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 20th, 2014 at 6:59pm Quote:
Yet it makes sense to you, doesn't it? Quote:
The Pew survey asked a variety of questions. In general, the less barbaric the law, the more support it has among Muslims. For example, the less barbaric hudud laws (whippings, chopping off limbs) have support among 66% of Malaysian Muslims, compared to 60% for stoning adulterers and 62% for executing apostates. I did not (as you have attempted) claim to know how many people support a specific piece of legislation based on election outcomes. I made a statement about responsibility. You can hardly lay the blame for these laws at the non-Muslim Malaysians, though I am sure you will demand that I prove it isn't the non-Muslims pushing the Islamic barrow in Malaysian politics. Quote:
I never said anything about how routine it is. Laws are supposed to be a deterrent. Obviously apostates are not going to volunteer for these rehabilitation camps, especially given the number of Muslims who want to execute apostates. Quote:
Sorry. I left out "Malaysian". The Malaysian Muslims have so far been unable to do this (execute apostates), but are not at all unwilling. Quote:
You have presented a deluded take on this issue from the very beginning, but I appreciate the irony of you offering up limbs. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 20th, 2014 at 8:25pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:26am:
The whole point is why brainwashing camps would have to exist at all. The reason is that you serve a god whose heavily abrogated, 23 year, 7th century record is revealed as the exact opposite of the Gospel of the God of the Christians and Jews. You serve a "messenger" that couldn't be more opposite to Jesus Christ. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm You serve a god whose lies are so apparent and transparent, that the only way the antichrist anti-religion of Islam was able to last any longer than Muhammad, is the threat of punishment for going against Islam. polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:26am:
Can't even you see that you have been brainwashed away from even being able to remotely conceptualize our God-given rights to freedom, liberty and self-determination? If you were one of the non-Muslims you oppress, or wanted to marry a Christian, your view would obviously be considerably less casual. Even if you were an Ahmadiyya Muslim. polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:26am:
Christians can't live a life filled with lies like Muhammad's followers do. Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. A Malaysian Muslim dropped me a note on one of my YouTube channels. He confided that he had increasingly recognized that so much was false and evil about Islam, that he knew it couldn't be from a true and loving God, but he never thought Christianity could be right because of Islamic brainwashing against Christianity. He wrote "I am not saying I am a Christian or anything like that, but just that now I think it's possible that Christianity could be the right way." All I did at that point was direct him to the Gospel of John on one of my websites, and told him to humbly ask Jesus directly, and right out loud, to help him find the truth. http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm A couple weeks later he wrote "I am a Christian now." This, without any church being involved, or any men congratulating him and patting him on the back, or anything else. Purely a direct relationship between himself and Jesus Christ. We baptized him over the phone, because it is important to get that done to cover past sins, so a person isn't haunted by them going forward. He was living outside of Malaysia at the time and was afraid to let his also-Muslim roommate know that he had become a Christian, and I told him there was no reason to, unless he was directly asked. But I also told him to be careful, because his face would likely give him away, as a result of the new found joy in his heart. It did, and when his roommate asked, he told him. Shortly thereafter a group of Imams came to his room to sit on him, but he resisted their pressure. He even became a Christian evangelist and street preacher in that small Islamic enclave in that foreign country. Last time we made contact he was back in Malaysia, and had found some Christians to fellowship with, but he was absolutely confident that if his father found out he was a Christian he would kill him without hesitation. THAT is the only way, that Satan's anti-religion of Islam - a provable evil lie at every level - lasted any longer than Muhammad. When was the last time you heard about a Christian father murdering his child for leaving Christianity? Why do you suppose that is? John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:26am:
But that's exactly what it is, in the real scheme of things, in the light of the truth. Start with: https://www.google.com/#q=churches+burned+malaysia http://www.examiner.com/article/9-malaysian-churches-burned-dispute-over-allah Try: https://www.google.com/#q=christian+oppression+malaysia polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 10:26am:
Until you recognize Islamic slavery is the result of the struggle between truth and lies, between good and evil, you will remain on the wrong side of the equation. It doesn't have to be that way. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_love_of_god.htm |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 20th, 2014 at 8:45pm Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 8:25pm:
Middle Eastern born man who now has a large worldwide following with roots in the Old Testament. Totally opposite of course. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 8:25pm:
The Old Testament has many laws for believers that result in death, for very trivial things sometimes such as picking up a bundle of sticks on the wrong day. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 8:25pm:
How does this fit in with your justification of your God ordering his people to kill babies? What happened to their "god given rights to freedom liberty and self-determination? Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 8:25pm:
Good for him. Good luck in his new faith. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:22pm Quote:
Gandalf was recently trying to argue that Malaysian Muslims who say they support the death penalty for apostasy do not actually support it. He argued that the reason they do not have the death penalty for apostasy is because the Muslims who support it (who make up roughly 1/3 of the population) do not really think what they think or are somehow not motivated to get what they want. He even attempted to argue that the non-Muslims among the other 2/3 of the population support the "right" of Muslims to impose these laws on "themselves" (which for some reason includes apostates). |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:33pm freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:22pm:
While I was perusing the two search links I left him, I happened upon this article by a Malaysian Christian that describes what life is really like in Malaysia, and how the Malaysian courts and legal system actually in fact work: http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/jamie-glazov/islam%E2%80%99s-persecution-of-christians-in-malaysia/ Which is how Islam always goes, in every case: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXWjlgJ83E The thing I don't get, is how gandalf doesn't get that they he is consigning his heirs, ultimately to be enslaved under rulers like the Taliban, or even worse. AP - December 06, 2006 MOGADISHU, Somalia - "Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days." Consigning his heirs to be enslaved by whoever are the most morally reprobate, that wield the biggest beheading knifes. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islamic_slavery_dhimmitude.htm |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:46pm freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 6:59pm:
Of course it makes sense. But its still worthless conjecture without any supporting evidence. freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 6:59pm:
Wrong. Its 60%, 54% and 58% respectively. And guess what? According to that survey that you insist so vehemently is only about cutting off limbs and flogging for crimes, less than 30% of Chinese Malaysians disagreed with the notion that hudud could be a solution to widespread crime. Question FD - why are hudud flogging and chopping off limb laws not in place in Malaysia, given that the evidence strongly suggests that a majority of Malaysians demonstrably do *NOT* oppose it? Food for thought. freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 6:59pm:
Yes responsibility. Muslims are "responsible" for laws that were instituted not by the democratically elected government, but by the sharia courts that no one votes for. Yet when muslims overwhelmingly *CHOOSE* not to vote for the one party that offers the hudud laws they supposedly love so much, then the subsequent failure for those laws to get up is somehow *NOT* muslims responsibility. It is also *NOT* the muslims responsibility it seems, when both major parties (who incidentally both rely primarily on the Malay vote) consider it expedient to take an anti-hudud position into the election. In short, muslims are responsible when bad things get through, but not when bad things are prevented/blocked. Also what percentage of muslims do you think support these rehabilitation camps? Oh sorry I forgot, you only deal in baseless assumptions :P |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:54pm Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:33pm:
Malaysia's problem in regards to the legal system and courts is not Islam, it's just corruption. Grease the right palms and no one cares what you do in Malaysia. I'm sure you will try and argue that corruption is due to Islam anyway, in between advocating the murder of babies and genocide. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:13pm Quote:
;D I knew it would be an uphill struggle to use common sense personal attack removed Quote:
Because people do not vote "NOT against" candidates and policies. That survey is transparent Islamic spin for the foolish and gullible. Quote:
There is a democratic process that determines what those courts are able to do. If the majority of Malaysians were opposed to that arrangement, they could end it. The majority of Malaysians support the arrangement. The laws in Malaysia are a surprisingly accurate reflection of the opinions shown in the survey. Quote:
Correct. Now repeat after me. An election is not a referendum on a single issue. The minority of Muslims who oppose those barbaric laws can take credit for blocking them, just as the non-Muslims who oppose them can also take credit for it, but you cannot tell who they are or how many of them there are based on an election outcome. Quote:
Gandalf I am not sure why I need to point out the obvious again, but the issue splits the Malaysian Muslim community nearly right down the middle. I can only assume that you lump them all together as part of your endless misleading spin - I recall you made some BS claim that if the majority of Muslims support the law they could achieve it, even if they only make up 1/3 of the total population. Quote:
Do you remember demanding I prove "my claim" that 2/3 of the population oppose these laws and that is why they are not law? How can you not see that that is giving credit where it is due? Quote:
A lot more than support executing apostates. Stratos wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:54pm:
I have no doubt that corruption is a problem, but that does not mean you can somehow white-wash over all the problems that can be traced directly back to Islam. The country has two parallel legal systems - because of Islam. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:26pm freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:13pm:
No of course not. One of my closest friends grew up in Malaysia as a non Muslim. While their systems do favour Muslims, there was pretty much nothing of a problem which relates to anything extremist or fundamentalist. Police and officials accepting bribes as basically common practice instead of actually following the law. The thing is though, the Malaysian government is a Muslim party, and they have been in charge for the longest of any "elected" government (seriously, look up the most recently election, dodgy as balls), and they do not do any of the things you are suggesting, even though they clearly could install these laws if they wanted. I really don't think it is on the radar for them to start amputating thieves and stoning adulterers, despite the fact they could have these laws if they so choose |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:36pm Quote:
What have I actually suggested the government is doing, other than representing the will of the majority? Quote:
What could they do? Quote:
I notice you left out executing apostates. Is that because you know it almost came to pass in one state? |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:52pm freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:36pm:
You mean that the majority DON'T want violent punishments then? freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:36pm:
They are a corrupt government. They could do whatever they want basically. freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:36pm:
I notice you left out the majority of my argument. Maybe because you know they aren't actually punishments based on Shari-ah law in Malaysia? Also, note your phrasing, ALMOST came to pass in ONE state. Just to clarify, of course I don't condone any form of violent punishment. Another way of phrasing that would be did not come to pass in any state. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:51am freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:13pm:
Not really. And this line of argument is a pretty funny turnaround after pages and pages of lecturing about the near impossibility of getting any one specific issue up on the political/election agenda due to lack of press freedom, "layers of obscurity" in the Malaysian system and of course the 'elections no referendum on single issue' jig. the key difference of course between the two cases is that in the case of hudud, the major parties took a very clear stance on the issue, whereas no one took any stance on what the syaria courts currently are able to do. Oh and I won't even bother asking for evidence that "the majority of Malaysians" support the current arrangement ::) freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:13pm:
According to one random survey - *NOT* according to voting behaviour or the pattern of political agenda setting of Malay (muslim) political parties. freediver wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:13pm:
::) Let me guess, another deferring to common sense, and "just taking an honest guess"? Beats actual evidence right? |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 21st, 2014 at 12:32pm Quote:
Why not? Quote:
Despite it's flaws, there is a limit to what the government can get away with, especially for highly contentious issues. You were attempting to read an absurd level of detail into specific election results. That is what I was criticising with those arguments. It is still a reasonable assumption that the outcome of a democratic process eventually reflects the will of the majority on issues that the public take an interest in. Quote:
Malaysia did not end up with it's version of Shariah law by some kind of accident. Are you suggesting the majority of Malaysians oppose the current arrangements? Quote:
Is that because it would be another stupid demand? BTW, the evidence is there in the Pew survey results. There are enough Muslims who nominally support Shariah law to make a majority of the total population, and it is perfectly reasonable to assume the more benign aspects are more broadly supported than the more barbaric aspects. Quote:
It was not random. It is the only evidence that has been presented in which Muslims were actually asked what they think, and you have presented no rational criticism of the evidence. Every criticism you made has been shown to be a lie. Quote:
Both of these are entirely consistent with my position and with the Pew survey results. I have explained how. You ignored it. Quote:
Common sense is a great place to start. Not sure why you have a sudden interest in demanding proof for the bleeding obvious. Is it because every time you took an actual stance on this it was shown to be transparently misleading Islamic spin? Do you have any rational reason for why the Malaysian political situation would somehow defy common sense? Is it all just wishful thinking on your part? Are you embarrassed because you 'vouched' for all those Muslims based on your personal experience in Malaysia without ever bothering to ask them what they think? All the evidence we have is consistent. The only thing that is inconsistent is the spin you are trying to put on it. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 21st, 2014 at 12:40pm
Stratos:
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Welcome to the debate. The majority of Malaysian Muslims do. However they only make up less than 1/3 of the total population. Quote:
Corruption is not the same thing as being all-powerful. Quote:
What are you on about now? Malaysia has two separate legal systems, one of which is based on Shariah. Quote:
What is your point? Are you suggesting this is consistent with it not even being on the radar? Or are you just changing the goal posts now you realise it is indeed on the radar? If Queensland passed a controversial law and it was knocked down on appeal in the federal court on constitutional grounds, would it be reasonable to argue that it is not even on the radar in Australian politics? Quote:
Because the majority of Malaysians oppose it. The state in question has far more Muslims and the law is likely supported by the majority there. If those Muslims had their way, they would be executing apostates. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Sprintcyclist on Jan 21st, 2014 at 1:13pm Stratos wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 8:45pm:
stratos - that's so false personal attack removed. or do you just have a very llimited knowledge of the Bible ? |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 21st, 2014 at 2:00pm freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 12:32pm:
Obviously it wasn't your intention to snooker yourself with your own argument, but thats exactly what you have done. You can't argue that Malaysian democracy makes it impossible for Malaysians to make a decision on any one issue at the ballot box, and then turn around and say 'oh but they could definitely make a decision about this particular issue - if they really wanted to'. freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 12:32pm:
What "current arrangements" is that? I was talking specifically about rehabilitation camps for apostates - which I think we can pretty safely say the vast majority of Malaysians probably don't even know exist (they only exist in some states anyway - quite possibly only one). Thats the whole point here - the sharia courts are a law unto themselves, they are guaranteed by the constitution and are not under the direct control of the government. The average Malaysian wouldn't have a clue as to what they actually do - let alone be able to make an informed democratic decision about them. freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 12:32pm:
I certainly hope for your sake it was random - it would blow your entire argument out of the water if it wasn't random. freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 12:32pm:
This is you once again inventing what I have said. I made no criticism of the survey - Ian did, but not me. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 21st, 2014 at 2:40pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 1:13pm:
Anything specific you think is false? |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 21st, 2014 at 4:50pm Stratos wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 8:45pm:
Guffaw! Islam has no roots! The entirety of the pre-4th century AD what Muslims can only call "tradition", was created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th century AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 4th century AD. Thus the entire false claim of an Abrahamic basis of Islam is provably pure poppycock, that revolves around a town that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological record that suggests ever existed, prior to about the 4th century AD when pagan immigrants from Yemen originally settled the area and built their pagan kaaba in the 5th century AD. http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm Besides which the actual historical record, supported by archaeology assures us that Abraham, Ishmael nor Hagar were never within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD - 2,000 years after Abraham roamed the earth. Making Islamic "tradition" a geographical impossibility. Mecca is 1200 kilometers AWAY from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. That's why gandalf or wally1 were left utterly dumbfounded and unable to reply my posts to them on the history of Mecca thread. Because there IS NO history of Mecca prior to the 4th century AD. Here's the post to gand: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196/20#20 Here's the post to Wally1 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196/24#24 They couldn't answer because there is no basis for their antichrist anti-religion since it is provably pure poppycock, embellished with recycled and thinly veneered Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals. http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm Google the origin or Ramadan: http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/origin_of_ramadan.htm |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 21st, 2014 at 4:58pm
Even if it is false archaologically, it still doesn't change the fact that Islam is based in part on the Old Testament.
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 21st, 2014 at 5:08pm Stratos wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 4:58pm:
Which part is based on the Old Testament? Their prostrating themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca 5 times a day? Their practicing Ramadan as the Sabian moon god worshipers did? http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/origin_of_ramadan.htm Their running back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah as the Arabian pagan jinn-devil worshipers did? http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 21st, 2014 at 5:13pm Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 5:08pm:
Here, have a wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions While you obviously disagree with it in terms of truth, Abraham, Moses and even Jesus are all part of Islamic scripture. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by wally1 on Jan 21st, 2014 at 6:09pm
Pete- I would reply to you but your posts are so thick I haven't got time to sit hours and read your posts.
Plus you jump around to much in your posts. In the same posts you talk about things which are irrelevant to the topic. In the same posts you talk about the gospel, then Ramadan, then jihad, then paganism, then moon god, then apostacy etc etc You don't even know where to reply in your posts. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 21st, 2014 at 6:42pm
This other topic you guys are carrying on with seems to come up in every thread. Can't you start a new thread for it? It is really annoying.
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Those aspects of Shariah law that have been implemented. Quote:
One third of the country supports executing apostates. It is hardly a stretch of the imagination that the majority support the far milder punishment, given that the majority support Shariah law. I find it hard to imagine that Malaysians are unaware of what happens in their own country. It gets enough media coverage. Given all your other attempts to completely misrepresent how Malaysians feel on the issue and how it is somehow "off the radar" you cannot expect anyone to take this seriously. Quote:
How so? The constitution is supposedly secular. Quote:
Nor is our reserve bank. The government does not have to directly control something to have responsiblity for creating and destroying it. Quote:
And yet the outcome closely reflects the will of the majority as revealed independently by the Pew survey. Quote:
Ah I see. You meant a well conducted survey that accurately reveals the views of Malaysian Muslims. What was your point? Quote:
You went on and on about how they only voted that way because it was an abstract principle and how they would vote differently if it ever became a real possiblity. You made numerous other attempts to excuse the views of the majority of Malaysian Muslims. They have all been shown to be outright lies. Suggesting that a survey only reveals what people "pretend to think" rather than what they "actually think" is a pretty serious flaw, especially when it comes to their support for killing innocent people. Admit it, you have tried to misrepresent what Malaysian Muslims think from the very beginning and at every step of the way. Your argument that we should only judge them by what they have achieved when they can make up a democratic majority, rather than what they genuinely want to achieve, is just another attempt by you to whitewash over the barbaric views that these people hold as Muslims. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 21st, 2014 at 8:03pm freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 6:42pm:
That it was just one survey. Ideally it should be replicated in other surveys to make more meaningful conclusions about it. I would be particularly interested to see one that was less abstract and referred to specific proposed laws or policies, political parties etc. As I have said all along, people will make vastly different responses when they're thinking about a specific, tangible reality, as opposed to an abstract hypothetical. freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 6:42pm:
::) *sigh* never mind FD, I won't bother yet again trying to explain how deluded your interpretation of my argument is - suffice to say that even you seem to be able to see I was not criticizing the survey in any way. freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 6:42pm:
Once again, I excused nothing - but carry on with your delusions. freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 6:42pm:
shall I even bother? ::) freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 6:42pm:
Suggest you look at what I actually said at the time. Though of course with about 8 separate threads on this one topic, its going to be a real pain in the arse to find it. Maybe thats your tactic - completely bamboozle everyone with 1000 different threads so you can claim whatever you like about what people say - because no one's going to be bothered actually trying to find the actual quotes amongst those 1000 threads. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 21st, 2014 at 8:10pm Quote:
So execution for apostasy is not specific enough? Do you think it would make a difference whether they shot them or chopped their head off? Quote:
I see you have found the courage to have an opinion again. Why is executing people for apostasy abstract? Do Malaysians not understand what execution is? Why does the case in which Muslims in one Malaysian state actually voted this law in not make it real? Quote:
This thread is about you particularly unusual claim that we should refrain from judging Muslims by the views that they hold. It will come in handy every time you claim the opposite. It is the most blatant version yet of attempts by Muslims to equate the impotence of Muslims with benign intent, and yet another good example of the endless misrepresentation of Islam by Muslims. I am happy to quote what you said. It is perfectly reasonable to describe it as you insisting that Muslims do not really think what they say they think, in the face of all the evidence. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:05pm wally1 wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 6:09pm:
Then why not simply select a part, and answer that? If you could get honest with yourself for a moment, aren't you really just making excuses to yourself, to run and hide from the truth? I even bolded and enlarged what I was most interested in your answer to. Try answering just that one question: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4th, 2014 at 9:52pm:
Wally, we can all WISH the tooth fairy were real, but I think you would agree, that simply wishing something won't make it magically become truth. Through what EVIDENCE can you support the preposterous claim that Adam built the Kaaba? wally1 wrote on Jan 4th, 2014 at 9:29am:
Through what EVIDENCE do you believe this? |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:44pm Stratos wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 5:13pm:
Hey, why truth get in the way of a good lie, eigh?! Wikipedia is Islamized on matters pertaining to Islam. You are being duped into their lies that have been parroted since the 7th century. I have corrected and/or categorized many articles (recategorizing their historical masquerade, into as can only be honestly labeled "tradition"), but the Islamists remove the corrections and resume the masquerade. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/global_war_against_truth.htm#taqiyyah Here's the most important point. Islamic so-called "tradition" regarding anything prior to the 5th century AD IS NOT HISTORY. Nor does it have anything to do with pre-5th century AD history or archaeology. Arabian or otherwise. http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm Anybody that has spent even just a few hours investigating knows this, like this Muslim Eastern History teacher: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091231160732AAlTMZx Simple name dropping, in a preposterous pure fiction that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th century AD, does not create a relationship with the scriptures, nor with what went on from thousands of years before, as made apparent by their prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol five times a day. The name dropping that Muhammad pirated and plagiarized through Jews he inquired of, Khidajh's cousin Waraqa bin Naufal, and ex"Christians" like Jabr, only served to deceptively embellish the grand deception that IS the CULT of Muhammadanism who follow Muhammad ALONE. https://www.google.com/#q=who+aurhored+the+quran+jabr+waraqa+bin+naufal In fact Satan, through his "messenger" engaged in unspeakable blasphemy against those he did name. Here is what Muhammad described when he told his tall tale about riding up to heaven on a flying donkey-mule: Bukhari B55 #607 Narrated Abu Eurasia: Allah's Apostle said, "On the night of my Ascension to Heaven, I saw (the prophet) Moses who was a thin person with lank hair, looking like one of the men of the tribe of Shanua; and I saw jesus who was of average height with red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom. He blasphemes Moses, even attributing jealousy of Muhammad to him: Bukhari B58 #227: When I went (over the sixth heaven), there I saw Moses. Gabriel said (to me),' This is Moses; pay him your greeting. So I greeted him and he returned the greetings to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' When I left him (i.e. Moses) he wept. Someone asked him, 'What makes you weep?' Moses said, 'I weep because after me there has been sent (as Prophet) a young man whose followers will enter Paradise in greater numbers than my followers.' Islam IS blasphemy against God, and His holy name, and those that dwell in heaven, just as prophesied of Muhammad and his Islamic kingdom "beast": Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm#islamic_blasphemy_in_prophecy |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:51pm
Well Pete sounds like you illustrated my point pretty well. While you disagree with it (strongly) it does contain numerous links to Judaism.
It doesn't matter if you refute them, or even if they are true or false, Islam as a religion has numerous links to the Old Testament. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 21st, 2014 at 11:17pm Stratos wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:51pm:
Just another lie. Names plagarized from Judaism and Christianity? Sure. That doesn't make Islam any less ANTICHRIST: http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm Muhammadanism DOES NOT contain LINKS to Judaism. The Banu Qurayza Jews were willing to die, rather than utter such blasphemy: Ishaq:461 "After the siege exhausted and terrorized them, the Jews felt certain that the Apostle would not leave them until he had exterminated them. So they decided to talk to Ka'b Asad. He said, 'People of the Jews, you see what has befallen you. I shall propose three alternatives. Take whichever one you please.' He said, 'Swear allegiance to this man and accept him; for, by Allah, it has become clear to you that he is a prophet sent from Allah. It is he that you used to find mentioned in your scripture book. Then you will be secure in your lives, your property, your children, and your wives.'" Above we see Mohammed revealed as a terrorist, while next we find that Yahweh's faithful people well understood that following the false prophet Mohammed, would result in a death sentence in the hereafter. Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'" The Jews, OF JUDAISM which IS NOT LINKED to Muhammadanism, knew that following Muhammad through recycled pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship would result in a death sentence in the hereafter, so they opted for death in this world instead: Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men." http://www.brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm Just as so many Christians opt for death in this life today, when Muslims demand they renounce Jesus, or die. "CAIRO, Egypt (Morning Star News) – A group of Muslims robbed two Egyptian Christians living in Libya, then tied up and shot them to death after the two Copts refused their demand to convert to Islam, relatives said." http://morningstarnews.org/2013/09/two-egyptian-christians-slain-in-libya/ Stratos wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:51pm:
Islam is not a religion as it has lies instead of a deity. Thus Islam is a CULT that follows Muhammad alone, who have only been deceived into believing they do otherwise. God gave folks the free will to pray to the tooth fairy if they so choose. That won't make the tooth fairy magically become truth. Here's a breakdown of the term "cult" as applied to followers of Muhammad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 21st, 2014 at 11:20pm Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 11:17pm:
In Australia a cult is just a religion that pays tax just as a point of curiosity |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by wally1 on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 5:12am Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:05pm:
Just because its not written in the bible doesn't mean a incident/story/revelation didn't occur. The sun and the moon was also there before the bible.Do you need me to give evidence that there is a sun or moon? |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 7:23am wally1 wrote on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 5:12am:
No, because we are not discussing the sun OR moon. You didn't answer the ONE question I asked you Wally. I asked YOU, through what EVIDENCE do YOU believe that: "the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham)" and "Many tribes and nations did reconstruct the kabaa" Please present the evidence on which you make each of these casual offhand claims. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 11:53am freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 8:10pm:
I've explained this enough times already. People act all high principled and with more bravado on moral questions that are purely hypothetical and have no consequences. Surely even you wouldn't be surprised to see a large number of Australians respond "yes" to castrate convicted pedophiles in a random survey, then see that number plummet when Australians were actually asked to vote to make it a reality. freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 8:10pm:
The compbined populations of Kelantan and terengganu is less than 1/20th the population of Malaysia - and they have always been a special case because of their history of being occupied by Thais. But did Muslims even "vote" to have this law? Perhaps we can apply your "elections never referendums on single issue" rule. freediver wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 8:10pm:
Yes why don't you quote me insisting that. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 12:36pm Quote:
So you are trying to defend these people's barbaric beliefs by insisting they they are acting "all high principled"? So when they see "executing apostates" on the survey, they don't realise that the consequence might be executing apostates? Quote:
I would be surprised if there was a significant difference. Chemical castration is being seriously promoted as an option for these crimes (actual crimes, not thought crimes). However, as I keep pointing out, one of the states in Malaysia has come very close to enacting a law executing apostates. This would not have escaped people's attention, and the survey would not be the first time they have contemplated whether they support or oppose such a law. Quote:
Everything is always a special case. Like Tasmania. That does not mean we would not notice if Tasmania tried to execute people for thought crimes. The relevant difference here is that the state does not have the high percentage of non-Muslims that the rest of Malaysia does. This means that the majority of Muslims is closer to being the same thing as the majority of the population. Hence, 60% or more of the Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy, so they were able to get the laws through the state parliament. The Thais are not to blame for this. They passed laws to execute apostates because they live in a democracy and the majority of Muslims support the laws - not just in their fantasies, but in reality. Quote:
It was inevitable that the government policy would come to reflect the will of the majority. As I have pointed out many times, this is not the same argument as your feeble-minded insistence that a person who votes for a party must therefor support every policy that party has, and you can therefor determine the breakdown of views on an issue based on a breakdown of voting patterns and party policy. Quote:
Rather than fill up this thread with quotes - follow this link. Every post you made on the first page of this thread is you using the same BS excuse for why Muslims do not think what they say they think. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1387754522 |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 1:48pm freediver wrote on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 12:36pm:
Stick to the facts please - its 54% according to the PEW survey freediver wrote on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 12:36pm:
;D ;D my insistence. Righto. freediver wrote on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 12:36pm:
umm did you even read what I said? I'm saying their views on apostasy and adultery don't make them "little Hitlers" as you claimed. I also said that these views won't necessarily remain static as the question moves from an abstract hypothetical, to a distinct possibility. I never once claimed that the respondents do not think what they say they think and I'm getting tired of you constantly accusing me of doing so. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 9:33pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 1:48pm:
A murderer is a murderer. Period. Whether it is a parent murdering their child for "apostasy" or state sponsored murder of an apostate - simply because of their desire to live in freedom and outside of the slavery of Islam. A person only has to hate another person to be a murderer. 1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. The Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini working hand in hand with Hitler, with several Islamic SS divisions and an Islamic panzer division in Hitler's army, certainly made them little Hitlers. Video Hitler and the Mufti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sk3fKY9PhY http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#hitler_and_the_mufti |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by Stratos on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 9:45pm Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 9:33pm:
It still baffles me how you use these argument whilst defending the genocide and killing of innocent babies in the name of your god. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 9:33pm:
I kind of hope a lot about Abraham was untrue. I sure hope the story about how he almost murdered his son wilfully, and was praised as such which would most likely cause a lifetimes worth of trauma for the poor guy was untrue. What is it with God and asking people do to utterly terrible things in his name? |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 23rd, 2014 at 8:10am Quote:
Whatever. Still a majority. Quote:
That is one of the things you said. Would "little Muhammed" make you more comfortable. You also claimed - in every post - that they do not really think what they say they think. Quote:
It already is a distinct possibility. Were it not for federal intervention, one of the states would already have this law (and it is not, as you claim, the Thai's fault). Attempts to actually pass this into law mirror very closely the Pew survey results showing what Muslims think and where such Muslims are likely to hold a majority. Quote:
Of course you would not speak plainly. You tried to spin it into the most palatable lie you could. Contrary to your misrepresentation, this is a real issue in Malaysia, Muslims genuinely support it, and they try to achieve it as soon as they are able to. And you make excuses for them at every step, insisting it could not actually happen. You claim to oppose the barbaric aspects of Islam, yet even when you come face to face with it, Islam compels you to delude yourself and to delude others in order to facilitate them. Abu Hurairah narrates that the Prophet said: “One who keeps the faults of a Muslim secret in this world, Allah will keep his faults in the Hereafter and Allah remains in the help of the (Muslim) man until he is in the help of his brother.” (Musnad Ahmad: 274/2) |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 23rd, 2014 at 10:51am freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2014 at 8:10am:
Go away FD, and come back when you can comprehend an argument properly. |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by freediver on Jan 24th, 2014 at 8:10pm
If a "law abiding" Australian Muslim supports Shariah law, including hudud punishments, would you refuse to judge or criticise that Muslim for their barbaric views on the grounds that the majority of Australian Muslims don't go round chopping people's heads off?
Would you explain to that Muslim, with the same effort you have applied to Malaysian Muslims, that they do not really think what they say they think and only claim to support hudud punishments because they are yet to realise that chopping someone's head off for a thought crime is a pretty messed up thing to do? Where, in the process of establishing Shariah law, do you think such a Muslim would come to their senses? If I were to explain to this Muslim that chopping someone's head off is not nice, and that people should be free to choose and reject their own religion, do you think they would suddenly realise how silly they are for supporting the death penalty for apostasy? Do you think capital punishment is real or abstract for Americans who support it? |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 24th, 2014 at 8:40pm freediver wrote on Jan 24th, 2014 at 8:10pm:
See reply #54 |
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Title: Re: Man claiming to be prophet of islam sentenced to death in Pakistan Post by gandalf on Jan 25th, 2014 at 12:30pm
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Jan 25th, 2014 at 1:08pm
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Herbert on Jan 25th, 2014 at 2:27pm
;D ;D ;D
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2014 at 10:30pm
Looks like Gandalf is taking his bat and ball and going home.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Herbert on Jan 27th, 2014 at 11:03am
It's always a mistake not to let the conversation ebb and flow around the central core of the main theme.
When writing a thesis ~ yes ~ stick strictly to the subject, but with conversation it's better to let the participants 'drift' a little in their focus for the sake of maintaining interest. They'll be back on-track soon enough. Petulance about needing to stick strictly to the core topic will soon alienate the contributors. No one likes to be on a leash. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Jan 27th, 2014 at 10:13pm
The funny thing is, every time I try to start a "spin-off" topic, Gandalf gets upset about it. I don't think I've gotten it right once.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Jan 28th, 2014 at 9:18am freediver wrote on Jan 27th, 2014 at 10:13pm:
Every "spin-off" thread you start, you begin by quoting from another thread, and then making a point that is entirely relevant to the thread you just quoted. If what you are quoting is good enough for that thread, then your reply to that should be too. There is no logical reason to have multiple threads on the same topic, but more importantly, as I have pointed out multiple time, making us reference 4 or 5 threads to keep track of one discussion is painful and unnecessary. On the other hand, its just as unnecessary and nonconstructive to have a thread on one very specific topic, but is then used for people to toss whatever other negative islamic story they can think of. And for anyone interested in criticising islam, they should realise how nonconstructive this is: eg thread about arab nations treatment of their Palestinian refugees. Reply #1 about the unrelated topic of Palestinian honour killing. Two things: Firstly, the original problem of arab nations treatment of Palestinians gets ignored - and basically gets a free pass. Secondly, starting a new thread on the topic of Palestinian honour killings gives the issue far more exposure than if it was hidden away in an unrelated thread. Basically you guys should be thanking me for giving these issues the exposure and attention you no doubt believe they deserve. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Jan 28th, 2014 at 1:15pm
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by adamant on Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:51pm
Gandalf/Wally the kaaba is pagan, the hajj used to performed in the nude before being made into a formalized paganism, mo man used to pray facing Jerusalem in the hope the Jews would love and follow him.Abraham nor any of his tribe had anything to do with its founding as he did not exist in reality. Its it really is a load of twaddle.
Pete, Meeca was mentioned in 60 BC by a Greek. Islamic tradition attributes the beginning of Mecca to Ishmael's descendants. Many Muslims point to the Old Testament chapter Psalm 84:3–6 and a mention of a pilgrimage at the Valley of Baca, that Muslims see as referring to the mentioning of Mecca as Bakkah in Qur'an Surah 3:96. Also the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus who lived between 60 BCE and 30 BCE writes about the isolated region of Arabia in his work Bibliotheca historica describing a holy shrine that Muslims see as referring to the Kaaba at Mecca "And a temple has been set-up there, which is very holy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians".[28] Ptolemy may have called the city "Macoraba", though this identification is controversial.[29] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca Also gets a mention in your book of fairy tales. The Valley of Baca is mentioned in Psalm 84 of the Bible in the following passage: How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts. I long, I yearn for the courts of the Lord; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God ... Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the [pilgrim] highways. They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing ... Better one day in Your courts than a thousand [anywhere else]; I would rather stand at the threshold of God's house than dwell in the tents of the wicked[9] Stratos why do you keep harping on about the slaughter of the Canaanites. They did practise ritual slaughter of their own children but alas Joshua was 150 years too late to see the downfall of Jericho. The big question is how can a myth ask anything of anyone? By the post-war period a revolution had occurred in archaeological methodology, and Albright accordingly asked Kathleen Kenyon, one of the most respected practitioners of the new archaeology, to excavate at Jericho once more. Kenyon dug over 1952-1958 and traced the entire history of the city from the earliest Neolithic settlement. She did this by digging a narrow deep trench maintaining clean, squared off edges, rigorously examining the soil and recording its stratification, and thus building up a cross-section of the tell. When presented with an area that would require wider areas to be excavated - the floor plan of a house for example - she carefully dug in measured squares while leaving an untouched strip between each section to allow the stratification to remain visible. Kenyon reported that her work showed Garstang to have been wrong and the Germans right - Jericho had been deserted at the accepted Biblical date of the Conquest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jericho To keep on topic Malaysian Muslims can kill as many Malaysian Muslims as the like. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Jan 28th, 2014 at 1:35pm
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 28th, 2014 at 1:36pm
:)
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 28th, 2014 at 1:38pm
You are a very confused person, gandalf.
And it shows in your attitude - to the comments of others. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Jan 28th, 2014 at 1:43pm
The world is a confusing place Yadda.
Personally I think the "confused" person in this world who has introspection and is constantly questioning himself and the world, is a lot wiser than the dogmatically certain person who is dangerously rigid and inflexible. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 28th, 2014 at 1:53pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 1:43pm:
Yes i can see how you gandal, are not, "the dogmatically certain person who is dangerously rigid and inflexible", who does not need to silence the voices of others, by 'disappearing' their posts off to other distant threads. :P |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Jan 28th, 2014 at 2:23pm
disappearing?
They are there for all to see Yadda. There is even a link in this very thread to where they are. In fact they are even more visible now that they are in a thread that they are relevant to. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 28th, 2014 at 8:45pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 1:43pm:
That's because you can't even understand the concept of certainty, when you follow a fake prophet, through his fraudulent false cult. With a so-called "tradition" centered on a pagan black stone idol and kaaba, in town that even you recognize did not exist prior to the 4th century AD. You are living a lie, and deep-down you know it - indeed even on the face of it you know it. But the alternative of leaving that lie, and becoming an Islamic "apostate", is too unpleasant to contemplate. Perhaps you know that your father would murder you, just like the Malaysian former Muslim that I baptized, has every confidence his father will kill him if he finds out. But is the fear of loosing your life in this world, worth sacrificing your eternity and life to come, to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca? You could die this very day, my wayward friend. Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/16#16 |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 28th, 2014 at 11:18pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 2:23pm:
In this 'judge Muslims by actions, not views?' thread, in post # 69 gandalf complained about; "....the overthrow and subsequent persecution of members a democratic government in Egypt." In this thread, in post # 70, Yadda demonstrated an argument against gandalf's opinion [in post #69]. In this thread, in post # 73, gandalf expresses an opinion/argument against Yadda's opinion; In this thread, in post # XX, Yadda expresses an opinion/argument against gandalf's opinion [in post #73]. But then gandalf deemed my argument in post XX [in response to gandalf's opinion, in post #73] to be 'irrelevant', and gandalf 'disappeared' my post, off to another distant 'more relevant' thread. And the effect is; that it is as though my post # XX [in response to an argument by gandalf,] never even existed in this thread. gandalf, By your actions, you are demonstrating, that you, a moslem, are not interested, in engaging in an open and free flowing debate about the nature of ISLAM, unless that 'open' and free flowing debate [about the nature of ISLAM] is conducted according to how you expect an 'open' debate [about the nature of ISLAM] to be conducted. You are demonstrating, that you, a moslem, are not interested, in engaging in free and open debate - because i can only surmise that allowing open and free flowing debate about the nature of ISLAM is likely to embarrass or 'insult' your moslem 'sensibilities'. Are forums like this slowly dying? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1365893107/5#5 Quote:
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 28th, 2014 at 11:37pm
gandalf,
Recently in Turkey, some Turkish police officers charged some persons who are closely associated with members/ministers of of the ISLAMIST government in Turkey, relating to corrupt practices, in government circles. Was the ISLAMIST government in Turkey willing to allow the Turkish courts to test the evidence against these people who were charged by the police ? No! Instead, the ISLAMIST government in Turkey has now removed [sacked] many of the police officers involved in these charges [of government corruption]. It is embarrassing, to be a corrupt moslem, and have your corrupt practises exposed - that is how the ISLAMIST government in Turkey is obviously feeling. Google; turkey corruption scandal, government sacks police "Turkish government sacks 350 police carrying out corruption probe ..." Way to go, Erdogan!!!! ;D PROVING YOU ARE A TYPICAL, CORRUPT MOSLEM. IS THERE ANY OTHER TYPE OF MOSLEM ? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 29th, 2014 at 12:03am Adamant wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:51pm:
adamant, Wrong country. Google; Valley of Baca, lebanon |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Jan 29th, 2014 at 6:48am Yadda wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 11:18pm:
Yadda, your response, along with all the other posts about Egypt have "disappeared" into this highly visible thread right here: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390857768/15 It is now more visible and prominent now that the discussion is in its proper thread - its all there Yadda, nothing has been altered, the posts you describe are all still in the order you described them - go check it out and continue discussing it if you want. Nothing has disappeared, if I want a post to disappear, I would hit the delete button. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Jan 29th, 2014 at 7:45pm
Gandalf, how do you interpret the events in Egypt, with respect to your claims that Muslims should be judged not by their views, but by the actions of the majority?
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 29th, 2014 at 7:58pm Adamant wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:51pm:
I wanted to start a new thread regarding the dissimulation of Islam's liars like Deedat, Naik and Estes and their adoring minions and parrots, on the subject of Psalms 84, but I can't find a button to start a new thread anywhere. Can someone help me locate it? [edit add] Whoops! I found the button. Will post new thread. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Jan 30th, 2014 at 7:19am freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 7:45pm:
I don't really follow. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:45am polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 7:19am:
I think you're meant to say, "I surrender", G. Once you do that we can all get some peace. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:09am Karnal wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:45am:
Who is the God of creation, to us, to mankind ? Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: 19 Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me. 20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob. 21 And they thirsted not when he led them through the deserts: he caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them: he clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out. 22 There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:15am Yadda wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:09am:
Like commanding his followers to murder babies on contradiction to his previous command telling them not to murder? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:57am Stratos wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:15am:
Stratos, There is no contradiction. My God maintains the purity of his people, through the judgement of his people. Leviticus 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it,... Romans 8:7 .....the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them.... Stratos, You are very angry with my God, because you judge that murderers should not die, and that their children should not die with them. The fact that the children of murderers should die, with their parents, is on the head of those parents. Guilt upon more guilt. Consequences for their poor choices. Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Why should my God pollute his creation, by allowing the children of the wicked to inherit his [my God's] peace ? The wicked CANNOT inherit peace. The children of the wicked CANNOT inherit peace. Light and darkness cannot co-exist together. The children of the wicked inherit what the children of the wicked will ALWAYS inherit. Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Psalms 106:1 Praise ye the LORD. O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. I hear you shout...."WHAT MERCY!!!" God has declared that he will forgive, those among men who repent, even though they are worthy of death. +++ IMAGE... That image is not depicting a child, and a group of men. That image is depicting a polluted and defiled land. That image is depicting moral monsters [who are inhabiting God's holy land]. They are moral monsters which my God is justified to destroy as he chooses, both here, and in the spirit realm. n.b. Numbers 35:33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Herbert on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:03am Karnal wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:45am:
"Allahu Akbar!" to that. 8-) |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:09am Yadda wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:57am:
Oh I get it now. Baby killing isn't the fault of the people killing babies. Thanks for clarifying things |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:10am Yadda wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:57am:
Stratos, You, and many people like you, hate my God. And good luck with that!!!!! :D |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 30th, 2014 at 12:57pm Stratos wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:15am:
Stratos, There is no contradiction. +++ Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. Matthew 19:18 ....Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder,.... Leviticus 24:17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. Stratos, Perhaps you see the command given in Leviticus 24:17 [given to the Hebrews by their God], as being contradictory ? I see such judgements as restoring a balance, or, of 'paying a debt' that is due. Again; My God maintains the purity of his people, through the judgement of [and against] his people. Leviticus 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it,... Numbers 35:33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it. The judgements of God, against wrongdoers, is the cleansing the land of its defilement, causes by the wrongdoer(s). Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you. Deuteronomy 19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; 19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. Dictionary; defile = = sully, mar, or spoil. desecrate or profane (something sacred). |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Jan 30th, 2014 at 1:42pm
Oh do go on Yadda, how killing an innocent baby is not murder.
it's like peeling an onion with you. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 30th, 2014 at 2:39pm Stratos wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 1:42pm:
'killing innocent babies/children...' Stratos, If the wicked have children, then who's blood is it, that is coursing through the veins, of those children ? Like father, like son ? That image is not depicting a child, and a group of men. That image is depicting a polluted and defiled land. That image is depicting moral monsters [who are inhabiting God's holy land]. They are moral monsters which my God is justified to destroy as he chooses, both here, and in the spirit realm. n.b. Numbers 35:33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it. +++ Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Stratos, If we owe a [blood] debt to God, then all of our belongings and assets are 'brought into play', to pay that debt. Or, if the captain of a boat [through his own poor choices], steers his boat onto rocks, then if all the souls on board that boat [his boat!] are lost, then that loss of life, is at the hand of the captain of the boat. But when lives are taken, people like yourself, can blame God. Of course, coz, men are not responsible, for the consequences of their choices. :P Right ? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by wally1 on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:10pm
The monsters and terrorists who are invading the holy land.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by adamant on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:34pm
wally, they own it. muslims invaded it.
[personal abuse deleted] |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:41pm Adamant wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:34pm:
One of most bold simplifications I have ever herad |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by adamant on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:46pm Stratos wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:41pm:
Yes but its a bugger is it not. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by adamant on Jan 30th, 2014 at 4:17pm Adamant wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:34pm:
Who deleted Personal Abuse? All muslims abuse me. Can I delete THEM? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by adamant on Jan 30th, 2014 at 4:18pm
The monsters and terrorists who are invading the holy land.
DELETE THAT CRAP! AS I FOUND IT A smacking DISGUSTING LIE. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 30th, 2014 at 4:23pm wally1 wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:10pm:
Freedom fighters, Wally. Google it. You'll never win against Y. He's got the game sewn up. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 30th, 2014 at 4:25pm Yadda wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 2:39pm:
You see? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by adamant on Jan 30th, 2014 at 4:42pm
FD I would like to be an editor of Extremism Exposed.
This is because I find the new muslim adjudicator to be overtly Pernicious. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by adamant on Jan 30th, 2014 at 4:50pm
Delete the lies about Jews Gandalf. Or go and have mutual communal self gratification in your own sand pit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As it was in the beginning. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Jan 30th, 2014 at 7:13pm
Adamant, I suggest you take a deep breath, calm down, and familiarise yourself with the forum rules:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1386752453 Quote:
As clearly stated, I will delete any abuse directed at any forum member, such as calling someone a "moron". This is quite distinct from attacking a particular group of people that are the subject of discussion, which generally won't be censored. I'm not going to delete a description of a group of people as "terrorists and monsters" any more than I'm going to delete similar or worse descriptions of muslims I see here just about every day. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Jan 30th, 2014 at 7:43pm Adamant wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:46pm:
So tell me. Who does England rightly belong to? Australia? South Africa? Gaza? These are not simple questions, and to pretend otherwise is a vast oversimplification |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:20pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 7:13pm:
I say, that’s not very inclusive, G. Longy and the old boy wouldn’t have a thing to say. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:26pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 7:13pm:
Yes, G, but these people’s children have wicked Moslem blood coursing through their veins. Surely you can see that. They simply must be stopped. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Soren on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:32pm Stratos wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 7:43pm:
Denmark. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:33pm Adamant wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 3:34pm:
Just as Muhammadans are invading peaceful people all around the world. Israel being just another front in the Islamic conquest of humanity. http://www.zionismchristian.com/palestine_palestinians.htm#muslims_target_civilians ""18 percent of the nearly 2,000 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces since the uprising began in September 2,000 were civilians with no connection to the acts of terror.' This comes to approximately 360 innocent civilians killed in the course of legitimate self-defense.'" "Of the more than 800 Israeli deaths, approximately 567 have been innocent civilians [over 70%], many of these children, women and the elderly. Every such killing is an act of first-degree murder. To compare the accidental killing of civilians during legitimate self-defense against terrorism with the targeted murder of innocent civilians is like comparing medicine to poison. Both can result in death; but with the former, it is a tragic, if sometimes foreseeable, side effect, whereas with the latter it is the direct intended effect." " 'On the Israeli side, 80 percent of those killed were noncombatants, most of whom were women and girls. Israeli female fatalities far outnumbered Palestinian female fatalities by either 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. (So far, I have heard no feminist complaints about this; have you?) Israeli women and girls constituted almost 40 percent of the Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians. Of the Palestinian deaths, over 95 percent were male. In other words, Palestinians purposefully went after women, children, and other unarmed civilians and Israelis fought against armed male soldiers who were attacking them.'" |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:54pm
come now, there's two sides to every story
I can't believe people even pick a side in the Israeli Palestine conflict. Both are guilty of horrible war crimes. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Feb 3rd, 2014 at 9:22am
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 31st, 2014 at 12:45am Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:33pm:
Stratos wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:54pm:
There certainly is here. God's VS Satan's. The freedom, liberty and the right to self-determination of Israeli's democracy VS the murder, mayhem and misery of an Islamic slave state. The Holy Spirit VS spirit of antichrist. From your link: "Leshno Yar said the 43-page document was part of a pattern of "demonising Israel" in the Council -- where an informal bloc of Islamic and African nations usually backed by Russia, China and Cuba has a built-in majority." Islamic slave states with statutes to murder "apostates" and those guilty of "blasphemy". With Pakistan leading the charge at the Godless Islamists U.N. for global blasphemy laws. That is, for speaking honestly and openly about Muhammad, his anti-religion and cult. Though I doubt anybody in here has any misunderstanding as to which side you have chosen, even as you pretend not to have. It's no coincidence that the fruit of the anti-Zionist tree includes Muslims, Nazis, skinheads, white supremacists, communist Soviets, Louis Farrakan and the "Nation of Islam", George Soros and his Center for American Progress and antisemites of all stripes. http://www.zionismchristian.com/anti_zionism.htm Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 8:33pm:
The reason you are unable to discern the difference between the murder of imperialistic Islamic aggression, and Israeli national self-defense therefrom, is because your ability to distinguish the difference between right and wrong is influenced by the spirit of antichrist. I suppose perhaps the center of your focus in that quoted from my prior post, will be the 10% discrepancy between those two approximations, rather than the fact that Muhammadans specifically target innocent civilians all around the world. Whether in Israel, the Sudan, Nigeria or anywhere else around the world. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm#slaughter_nigeria |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 31st, 2014 at 5:36am
Karnal - not willing to contribute, not willing to reveal his true opinion on any serious issue....
Quote:
freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:59pm:
Karnal - not willing to contribute, not willing to reveal his true opinion on any serious issue.... Karnal wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:34pm:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1377296416/65#65 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379806836/50#50 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1380162579/0#0 Quote:
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Jan 31st, 2014 at 5:43am Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 12:45am:
So are you defending Israel's actions of "national self defence", even if it includes what was stated in the article, which includes: -targeting civilians -using children as human shields -attacks on schools -attacks on medical facilities I'm not defending the actions of Palestine, just saying that both sides are guilty of crimes. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:18am freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:31pm:
Come on FD! 'Australian Muslims protesting over Egypt' are not promoting democracy. Nor does Morsi's political ambitions and aims, 'coincide with [those of] democracy', imo. Rather, Morsi in Egypt, and 'Australian Muslims protesting over Egypt' are simply exploiting [and abusing] the political 'facility' which democracy affords to them, so as to seize local political power, with an intent to 'burn down' and destroy the democracy 'house'. And It is we, Australians, who have simply 'gifted' a right to democratic freedoms [and rights] to those who have come to this country to live - because their own country had been rendered unfit to live in [by their own estimation!] by the exact same political system - ISLAM - which these cultural guests, now wish to impose upon their host ['sanctuary'] country. Australian moslems do not deserve the right, to participate in the democratic system, here in Australia, in my opinion! Australian moslems have demonstrated [largely], a commitment, only to the exact same political system - ISLAM - which caused then to flee their own homelands, a political system which does not afford political rights to the individual. the right to choose what to wear http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1302598375/106#106 Quote:
+++ Q. If moslems come to live, in countries like Australia, will moslems learn righteousness ? A. No. Because a moslem, is a moslem. Dictionary; Muslim = = a follower of Islam. Isaiah 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:04am Stratos wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 5:43am:
You only further confirmed my point by your completely ignoring the statistics on casualties, while continuing to support and cite Godless liars of the side that has whose method of operation is to specifically target innocent civilians and terrorize, whose side you have chosen because you are of them. John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:10am Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:04am:
Not ignoring them. Not saying the Palestinians are innocent. Read what I said if you don't believe me. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:04am:
Are they lying? The news article quotes a UN document. Furthermore, how do you know these are lies? Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:04am:
Odd thing to say, as the allegations against Israel as per the report demonstrate they did these things too. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:04am:
Show me where I have given any side support in this argument. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:35am
Ah, Y, there is only one true opinion on things, no?
Yours. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by wally1 on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:27am
Summary of Israeli Violations of International Law in 2013
The year 2013 witnessed over 20,000 severe violations against the occupied State of Palestine and its people, who have suffered a number of violent attacks and incursions at the hands of Israel, the occupying power. These violations include attacks by both Israeli authorities and settlers, along with home demolitions, arbitrary arrests and the ongoing construction of illegal settlements. Since the resumption of negotiations at the end of July 2013, Israel has announced almost 6200 new settlement units, throughout the occupied State of Palestine. Please find below a Media Brief prepared by the NSU summarizing Israel’s violations of International Law during 2013, with a particular focus on violations committed since the beginning of negotiations, a process which is supposed to lead to a just and lasting peace. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by wally1 on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:33am
The jews cant even leave a poor camel alone.
Zionists arrest camel The israeli occupation forces in the district of Bethlehem arrested a camel yesterday under the pretext that it had entered into a “military zone”. The event took place near the Al-Rashaide village east of Bethlehem city in the occupied West Bank. Palestinian newspapers reported that Fawaz Rshaide, head of the Palestinian village council of Al- Rashaide, told reporters that the israeli soldiers had arrested a camel belonging to Musallam Younis Rshaaidhe because the camel had supposedly entered a “military zone”. “Military zones” are arbitrarily declared by the occupation to serve as a pretext to seize by force lands owned by Palestinians. It works like this: a “military zone” is declared over an area which the zionists want to steal, what means that the owners of these lands are not allowed to go to their land (and homes). The lands in question are then “confiscated” as a punishment if the owners enter their lands which are now a “military zone”, or they are declared “abandoned” by the occupation if the owners don’t show up for some time, and then seized and turned over to European or American squatters. Didk05Mr. Rshaide added that the israeli soldiers stole the camel, which belonged to a Palestinian, and fled the area. The Camel was taken to the military colony “Ma’ale Adumim” near Al – Eizariya in the West Bank, near occupied Jerusalem. He explained that the Israeli soldiers arrested the owner of the camel too in order to force him to pay a fine of 2,000 shekels to have his animal released from jail. In addition, the israeli soldiers who stole the camel, “asked” it’s owner to pay 600 shekels as “extra fees” for the transportation of the camel, which they stole and brought from the Palestinian land to the zionist colony. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:44am Karnal wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:35am:
Karnal wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 4:23pm:
K, Debate on a public forum, or in a public place, is a contest of ideas. In the statement above, you are PUBLICLY conceding that any ideals, or ideas, which you have, are worth less than my ideals, and ideas. K, If the position [the argument, the worldview] that you hold [and presumably cherish?], had any merit, you would have the courage to disclose it. If the position [the argument, the worldview] that you hold [and presumably cherish?] had any merit, you would simply engage me in argument/debate, with a view to defeating my arguments with valid counter arguments. But your position and argument, and the worldview that you hold [and presumably cherish?] is [clearly] UNWORTHY, and [clearly] bereft of any merit. And yet, with those persons that you 'engage' with [THAT IS A LAUGH!], here on OzPol, you don't ever concede. You don't have the courage to ever concede. Instead, here on the OzPol forum, you employ deflection, evasion and denial, and snide remarks, in opposing the character of other posters on the OzPol forum. snide remarks.... e.g. Karnal wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 4:23pm:
K, The only game you are playing on the OzPol forum, is 'running away' and refusing to 'front up' [i.e. a coward!], because your intellect [presumably] is unable to defend the worldview that you hold [and presumably cherish?] - a worldview that, indeed, K is not even prepared to disclose, here in the OzPol forum. Q. Why isn't K prepared to disclose and defend the worldview that he holds ? A. Presumably, because the worldview that K holds [and presumably cherishes], is, unworthy, AND, indefensible. And imo, K's own behaviour in this forum confirms that fact. +++ K, If what i, and others, have revealed about ISLAM in this forum is incorrect, THEN YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO DEMONSTRATE WHERE WE ARE IN ERROR, and correct us, in debate on this forum. K, We await your perspicuous argument(s), defending ISLAM and moslems, ...and demonstrating our 'error'. Crickets chirping........ |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:47am wally1 wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:33am:
This is very bad. Camel is the ship of the deserts. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:48am Yadda wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:44am:
But of course, Y. I'm no match for Gud. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:56am Karnal wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:48am:
Ah, ah. US political correctness once again costing lives. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1377296416/65#65 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379806836/50#50 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1380162579/0#0 Quote:
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 31st, 2014 at 10:01am wally1 wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:33am:
Quote:
.....quoting a 'peace loving' moslem cleric, explaining that it is the non-moslems who are always to blame, when non-moslem children [i.e. Jewish children in occupied 'Palestinian'] are killed in "Jihad operations" with moslems. Google; "There Can Be No End to Jihad" |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 31st, 2014 at 10:15am Yadda wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:56am:
[/quote] Yes friends, only Gud knows what lies in our hearts and minds. You can Google it. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Jan 31st, 2014 at 11:22am Karnal wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 10:15am:
Yes friends, only Gud knows what lies in the heart and mind of Karnal. Karnal wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 3:08pm:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379233323/103#103 Quote:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1376013300/122#122 Quote:
Yes, as i said; Only Gud knows what lies [verb] in the heart of Karnal. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Karnal on Jan 31st, 2014 at 12:25pm
True, Y. You merely interpret the voice of Gud.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by moses on Jan 31st, 2014 at 12:58pm
Karnal wrote:
Quote:
Ship of the deserts? Because it is full of muslim semen? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 1st, 2014 at 2:40am wally1 wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:33am:
THE false prophet Muhammad couldn't even leave a poor monkey alone! Indeed stoned it for "illegal sexual intercourse"! Bukhari B58, #188 Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun: During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them. Of course it is always the "shes" that are guilty of sexual indiscretion in Islam, since men are allowed 4 wives, a bevy of concubines, divorce through a single sentence repeated 3 times (even by text message), and temporary "marriage" for as short a time as 24 hours. wally1 wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 9:33am:
How would they know that the camel didn't have a bomb sewn into his body or stuck up its arse? There has even been reports of a religious ruling, for an exemption from rules regarding sodomy for Muslim suicide bombers, in order to enlarge their anuses for purposes of stuffing a bomb up their arse. https://www.google.com/#q=exemption+on+sodomy+suicide+bombers |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:05am Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 4:26am:
There are passages where Christians are called to punish those who leave the church Pete. Surely you know this |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:16am
Ah Pete, bit of a slip up here in your bolding I think in your monkey story
Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 2:40am:
May I present what a genuine person would have done with that? During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:29am Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 4:26am:
You remember wrong. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by wally1 on Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:43am
As usual the Christian members have to come out with there lies again, and they also get caught out repeatedly with the false accusations and lies.
The story of the stoning of the monkey happened before Mohamed, and the story relates to a individual who observed certain people stoning some monkeys. The stoning of the money was probably done by Christians like waldo and yadda.The story never implied it was done by muslims and the hadith is not from the prophet Mohamed and Mohamed never endorsed stoning of animals. Its only a story that was related by a new muslim and he just narrated what he saw his people do to animals who practised sex with eachother. The christinas would also belt and kill animals cause they thought evil came from them.Go look it up. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:13am
man, you guys are literally not able to even process words properly when you are trying to score points against Muslims. It's actually quite disturbing.
freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:07am:
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:24am
I think you are missing the point stratos. We are not criticising the monkeys for doing this, nor the people supposedly involved for witnessing it. We are criticising Muslims because of what it reveals about them that they would make up this story, and by what it reveals about you that you think it important to blame non-Muslims for stoning the monkey.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:32am freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:24am:
Is that right? freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:07am:
That's not what you said at all. Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 2:40am:
Or Pete. freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:24am:
Well seeing as according to the story this was before Islam, it can ONLY be non Muslims responsible for the stoning. Sorry if the truth is inconvenient with your need to try and score dumb points without reading things properly. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Feb 1st, 2014 at 11:21am freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:24am:
What a stupid non-issue. The person involved was a certain Amr bin Maimun, who is describing an example of what stupid people did in pre-Islamic times ("they" refers to people, not the monkeys) This account just happened to be recorded by someone, and Mr Bukhari, centuries later, for some reason known only to him, saw fit to add this to the collection of ahadeeth. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Prophet Muhammad. And FD, if you want to start a thread about this or anything else, please make some effort to make it intelligible and sensible - as opposed to just bunching a whole heap of random quotes with no duscussion. In any case, I'm happy to class this as related to "judging muslims by actions, not views". |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 1st, 2014 at 11:19pm Stratos wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:13am:
So if that was the Pre Islamic period of ignorance can we say muslims are now in the Islamic period of ignorance? Do you think it is arrogant of muslims to describe the time before Mohammad invented Islam as the period of ignorance? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 1st, 2014 at 11:34pm Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 11:19pm:
It is so preposterously laughable it is stunning. Their grasp on history is generally equivalent to that of an illiterate 7th century SW Arabian desert dweller. If they actually investigated history they would recognize that since Mecca never existed before the 4th century AD, then everything they are taught about Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael is a scripture-contrary pile of provably pure poppycock, that was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/evidence_for_islam.htm The absurdity of referring to the period before their illiterate "messenger" as being one of ignorance is demonstrated to be absolutely preposterous in the light of such as Greek and Roman engineering and architecture, and even an analog computer - the Antikythera mechanism - being produced over 700 years before Muhammad was ever born! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism Compare that with the crude completely unsymmetrical black stone box that they march around, just as the Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worshipers did, before Muhammad was ever born. http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm Let alone that after Muhammad "enlightened" his followers, they were then expected to believe in flying donkey-mules, giant flying carpets that Solomon and his army traveled on, talking ants and birds, and that the sun sets in a pool of murky water! http://www.brotherpete.com/fables_fantasies.htm With our resident closet Muslim Stratos suggesting that what a "genuine person" should find important - about that what should have been an embarrassing and humiliating hadith regarding the sexual transgressions of a monkey - should have been it's ridiculous content, rather than the time in history of when that foolishness was supposed to have taken place! http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1389655854/146#146 |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 1st, 2014 at 11:51pm polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:29am:
Or did you perhaps hope your tacit approval being banished to the "extremism exposed" section made it go away? Perhaps you could interpret for me what you meant when you said: "The truth is, we are talking about whether or not muslims have the right to introduce hudud apostasy and adultery laws on themselves, and only on themselves." If you had tried answering my post rather than ignoring it, perhaps it could have helped you remember. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388619982/68#68 |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 1st, 2014 at 11:52pm
accidental post
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:34am Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 11:34pm:
I'm not a Muslims Pete. Regardless, I'd be much happier to be a closet Muslim than someone who supports baby killing out in the open. Evidence you have of me being a Muslim is zero, and to pretend otherwise you are otherwise is breaking one of your own commandments. Wonder what your God thinks of your lies? I also love how you make a completely dumb topic which disproves itself in your own evidence and try and cover it under a diatribe of irrelevant information. Also your childish comments regarding the Islamic miracles are hypocritical too, as there are many similar things which occur in your own belief system. Take the log out Pete, then feel free to criticise. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:05am wally1 wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:43am:
Read it again Wally. The story was about MONKEYS stoning a fellow monkey, and Muhammad joining them. But then if he is to be known for anything at all, it should be his reprobate Satan-inspired cruelty. He did lots worse to human beings: Bukhari V4 B52 #261 "...they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm wally1 wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:43am:
So even by opening your post with false accusation against Christians, for simply copy and pasting that foolishness, you now accuse Christians of stoning the monkey, when what the hadith reports is that Muhammad joined the monkeys in stoning that monkey. And I want to thank you for that excellent and blatant display of Islamic dissimulation / taqiyyah, that is lying in the way of Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" regardless as to how transparent and provable your lie is. wally1 wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:43am:
It is a story that says what it says, and is related in what is considered Islam's second most divinely inspired texts, considered second only to the Quran itself in divine inspiration. Of course those of us in the Spirit of God recognize that the whole lot of Islam's evil antichrist books can only be inspired by Satan himself - the father of lies. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/ wally1 wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:43am:
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 7:01am Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:05am:
Where is the evidence this is what the story says? here's a hint, it's non-existent |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by wally1 on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 8:15am
...
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by wally1 on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 8:16am wally1 wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 8:15am:
I would like to see evidence to. Prophet Mohamed probably wasn't even a prophet when it happened, he didn't narrate the strory and was never there |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 8:45am polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 8:12am:
Just that those carrying the signs are obviously too stupid and/or history ignorant to understand, that 1400 years of Islamic history clearly demonstrates, that Islam is the very antithesis of freedom liberty and the right to self-determination. Now it will help you understand this if you would please answer my post, and explain how I had a lapse of memory, regarding your view on apostasy: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1389655854/165#165 |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 8:59am Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 11:51pm:
Sorry Pete, I take it back. You don't remember wrong, you just can't comprehend basic English. If you can be bothered trawling through that tedious thread (don't blame you if you don't) you will see that I explicitly stated my objection to such an idea. But it doesn't mean that the Chinese and Indian Malaysians don't accept that idea. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 9:26am polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 8:59am:
Seems you are simply running from the false prophet Muhammad's anti-religion of Islam again. I don't know what Chinese have to do with the death penalty for apostasy in Islam. Few things are more Islamic than punishing, even threatening on pain of death by statute, those that desire to leave Muhammad's cult, as attested by 1400 years of Islamic history and many Islamic countries today. Middle East Islamic nation States in the cradle of Muhammadanism that GET Islam: http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm#death_penalty_apostasy Iran – illegal (death penalty)[13][14][15] Egypt – illegal (3 years' imprisonment)[15] Pakistan – illegal (death penalty[15] since 2007) United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, flogging)[16] Somalia – illegal (death penalty)[17] Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)[18][19] Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)[15][20] Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution)[21][22] Qatar – illegal (death penalty)[23] Yemen – illegal (death penalty)[23] Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)[24][25] Maldives - see article Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)[26] Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy[28][29][30] Oman – legal in criminal code, but according to the family code, a father can lose custody of his child[31] The threat of State sponsored murder, as well as lesser penalties imposed on people, for simply exercising their God-given right to free exercise of religion and self-determination, like in your own country of Malaysia. So then you are saying that in your opinion..... "The truth is, we are talking about whether or not muslims have the right to introduce hudud apostasy and adultery laws on themselves, and only on themselves." ..... that Muslims absolutely DO NOT have the right to introduce "hudud apostasy and adultery laws on themselves" (which in reality means imposing them forcefully on those that disagree). |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 9:51am freediver wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 9:40am:
Oh, have I missed a memo? Or is Islam a race again |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 9:53am freediver wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 9:40am:
I was so disappointed that he couldn't bring himself to respond to a single point in that post that took so long to construct. Yet he doesn't even seem to be able to understand why he can't. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388619982/68#68 |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 10:07am Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 9:51am:
Malaysia has two sets of laws, based on race. One for the indigenous people, who the government defines as Muslims (regardless of what religion they actually are). Gandalf suggests that because these laws only apply to "themselves" the ethnic Chinese and Indians would support or tolerate it. Obvious "themselves" does not mean Muslims, as we are talking about executing apostates. In this context it means the indigenous people. Any indigenous person who rejects Islam would be executed. Gandalf suggests that the Chinese and Indians see this is a "right" for the Muslims and demands proof that they would oppose it. Unfortunately the Pew survey only bothered to ask Muslims who support Shariah law whether they support Muslims executing apostates. For some inexplicable reason, they did not bother asking non-Muslims and Muslims who reject Shariah law whether apostates should be executed. No-one else seems to have bothered either, except one survey Abu found that does not ask whether they support or oppose any laws and does not mention executing apostates. That was convenient for Gandalf, as it allowed him to read whatever he wanted to into the results. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:45pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:29pm:
Stratos, [If you are not already a 'deep cover' moslem, pretending to be a non-moslem in this public forum], then you really should consider converting, and becoming a 'fully accredited' Mohammedan. It is clear, Stratos, that in many of your posts [like your post above], that you are not merely an apologist for ISLAM/moslems, but that you do have a moslem heart. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:49pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:37pm:
" The Prophet said, "War is deceit." " bukhari/ #004.052.269 Q. And what is the purpose of moslem deceit, towards non-moslems ? Hmmmmm. I wonder, what could it be ??? Taqiyya “Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…” Google; taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit +++ AND ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF BLATANT MOSLEM DECEIT, TOWARDS THE BROADER UK NON-MOSLEM COMMUNITY.... Quote:
http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2307:mcbnewstemplate&catid=82:mcb-news http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-656 |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:53pm Yadda wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:45pm:
yes sorry, you've rumbled me. I secretly pretend to be what I defend on these forums. Here I am coming out of the closet as a Muslim homosexual boat person Keynesian economist with public education and healthcare. Yadda wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:45pm:
Point out where my post was wrong Yadda. That'd be great and we could have a lovely discussion about it and come to a mutual agreement based on the facts at hand. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:53pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:37pm:
The Quran is very specific on how to deal with people who mock Islam. Quote:
The muslims who had those behead those who insult the profit signs are following the Quran. Of course 2/85 says you cannot pick and choose which parts of Islam to follow. www.quran.com/2/85 |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:54pm
Ah look, more of Yadda's lies.
By now you think he'd know the Koran only mentions that you can hide your faith in order to protect yourself from danger. But obviously falsehoods are less important to him than telling the truth. What an interesting "doctrine of deceit" you have going today Yadda |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:59pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:53pm:
Yes thank you. I thought that i had correctly 'sussed' what it is, that you truly represent, in all of your apologetics for ISLAM/moslems. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:01pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:54pm:
Taqiyya is a shia doctrine,Abu the former moderator says the shia can lie at will. The sunni are only allowed to lie in 3 circumstances which Falah a muslim who posted here agreed with and posted a link from Sheik Munajid. 1.At time of war, the non muslim west is called Dar al Harb which means land of war, muslims can lie at will to people in Dar al Harb. 2.To your wife, Islam allows a man to tell lies to his wife. 3.To reconcile 2 or more parties, i dont know how this works when one side sees the other lying through their teeth. If you ask a muslim about Islam they will be like a used car salesman combined with a politician in selling that horse manure called Islam to you. If you ask an ex muslim they will say Islam is bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit. www.councilofexmuslims.com |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:02pm Yadda wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:59pm:
Find me one example where I have defended extremism. Just one. I dare you. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:09pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:54pm:
Stratos, You are perpetuating another moslem deceit and lie. Every moslem deceit and lie which advances the interests of moslems and ISLAM, is permissible, to and for, the moslem. e.g. Quote:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012406.php |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:12pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:02pm:
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Yadda on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:29pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:02pm:
OK, i will prove it Stratos, You unceasingly defend ISLAM and moslems on this forum! And who, is a moslem ? A moslem, is a moslem. Dictionary; Muslim = = a follower of Islam. And what is ISLAM ??? And what does ISLAM sanction ? Does ISLAM sanction violence against 'disbelievers', BECAUSE THEY ARE 'DISBELIEVERS' ? And if ISLAM did sanction violence against 'disbelievers', BECAUSE THEY ARE 'DISBELIEVERS', wouldn't that violence against 'disbelievers' be counted as an expression of 'extremism' ? "And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..." Koran 2.193 "....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith." Koran 2.98 "....those who reject Allah have no protector." Koran 47.008 v. 8-11 "Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Koran 2.216 "O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)." Koran 9.123 "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...." Koran 9.111 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. " Koran 9.29 "Find me one example where I have defended extremism." |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:35pm
Haha, so you try to prove I defend extremism with zero of my own words. Nice.
no not nice.... wrong... that's the one |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 10:45pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:54pm:
So how do you explain so many famous liars, dissimulators and deceivers working for Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah", like Ahmed Deedat, his disciple Naik and Yusuf Estes? (please direct replies to the thread dedicated to this) http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390996044 |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 10:55pm Yadda wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:45pm:
Few places has he made what you suggest more obvious, than when his only criticism of the hadith I quoted and commented on, regarding the ridiculous story of Muhammad joining a bunch of monkeys that were stoning a fellow monkey because it "committed illegal sexual intercourse", was that it was supposed to have happened during the pre-Islam "period of ignorance"! Who else could believe such tripe but a Muslim?!! This after his having arrogantly and amusingly said: "May I present what a genuine person would have done with that?" Check his post here: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1389655854/146#146 |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:03pm
Lol, Pete, you really do crack me up.
My criticism is that you were trying to misrepresent the what the passage was saying, and you blatantly were, by saying things such as: Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:05am:
Did you ever find proof of that? Or is that just another lie? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:11pm Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 10:55pm:
Stoning a monkey. Is that more ridiculous than, say, hearing prophecy from a talking donkey? Cutting someone into pieces and mailing her around? People living for 8 or 9 centuries? Getting turned into salt for looking the wrong way? Telling people they can pray mountains away? The correct answer is, they are all ridiculous. (yes, including the monkey story. it's freakin' wierd) |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:37pm Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:03pm:
Islam is nothing but a pile of hogwash. There isn't even any proof that Mecca existed prior to the 4th century AD. I QUOTED THE HADITH. You indicated I misrepresented it. Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:03pm:
Who's the liar? I had even left you a link, but you were so overcome by the spirit of antichrist - by the father of lies himself - that he caused you to lash out and lie about me lying, in false accusation. Bukhari B58, #188 Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun: During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them. Your lie exposed here isn't all that makes you a liar: 1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And simultaneously a false accuser, just as prophesied of such as yourself, in these days: 2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:42pm
So hang on, lets have a look.
it's narrated by someone called Amr bin Maimun. So when it talks about stoning it, he is talking about himself joining in yes? So it's not Muhammad. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 3rd, 2014 at 12:02am Stratos wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:42pm:
You are correct that I jumped to an unsound conclusion, since Amr bin Maimun may not have been quoting Muhammad, but rather recounting his own experience. Though my mistake doesn't make you any less of a liar according to the scriptures. 1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son What it does demonstrate is that Muhammadans continue to this day in monkey-see-monkey-do, not only in their stoning of adulterers, but even kissing the Quraish pagan's black stone idol, just as Muhammad did. They themselves will tell you that the only reason they do it is because Muhammad did. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Stratos on Feb 3rd, 2014 at 12:05am
I just find it sad and hilarious that a minute ago I was *ahem*
Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:37pm:
and suddenly you change your mind when you look at what is actually written in your own quoted words. Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 3rd, 2014 at 12:02am:
Where was I lying in my previous post, demonstrating that the passage wasn't about Muhammad? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 3rd, 2014 at 12:11am Stratos wrote on Feb 3rd, 2014 at 12:05am:
Are you suggesting that my mistake somehow makes you less of a liar according to the scriptures? Less of an antichrist? Less of a false accuser of Jesus Christ? Less of a follower of the father of lies? Less of a blasphemer of God and His scriptures? Even with accusation against the Gospel writers, and even arguing against the crucifixion, just like a Muslim would: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/136#136 Stratos wrote on Feb 3rd, 2014 at 12:05am:
You were not lying on that point, to which I already admitted and repented, and I'll formerly apologize to you for my error and resulting accusation against you. However you didn't point out that it "wasn't about Muhammad", but highlighted that it was "During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance", which didn't help me see your point, since Muhammad was also around during the days before he invented his anti-religion and started his cult. There is no shortage of Islamic literature attesting to those days. Like the occultism in the family of Muhammad: http://religionresearchinstitute.org/Mohammad/occultism.htm And Muhammad's being so deeply involved in "Ahnaf" - which was a local sect of the 2nd century occult cult of the Sabians - that the locals often referred to Muhammad simply as "the Sabian". However you are a chronic liar regarding the things of the Spirit of God. Accompanied by your closet Muslim styled unwavering defense of Satan's antichrist anti-religion. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Feb 3rd, 2014 at 9:13am
Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by adamant on Feb 3rd, 2014 at 7:41pm
Actions?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjP3jafW5Bg |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Taipan on Feb 8th, 2014 at 4:07pm
judge Muslims by actions, not views?
That would make things even worse for muslims. They have committed an awful lot of crime in relation to their numbers and how long they've been in the country and then theres their racism toward Aussies, especially the Anglo-Saxon type. It seems they are digging themselves into a hole and they have no one to blame but themselves. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Feb 8th, 2014 at 4:11pm
To be fair, Gandalf said actions of the majority - you cannot judge Muslims by what they think, say or do, unless the majority do it. Thus even when they stone people to death you cannot judge them for it because it is hard to get more than 50% to participate.
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:54pm freediver wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 4:11pm:
Why on earth not? I have no idea what arguments of mine you are failing to comprehend, but if I heard about a muslim doing something abhorent, then I would judge them for doing an abhorent act - irrespective of whether he is representative of his community or not. If you are talking about judging a group of people, then its reasonable to judge it for actions committed by individuals that are typical of, or in any way sanctioned/tolerated by the majority. Is that fair? |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Feb 9th, 2014 at 10:22am
From the opening post:
freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 9:30am:
This is Gandalf refusing to judge Muslims for supporting the death penalty for apostasy and stoning adulterers to death because they have enough self control not to go round killing people. Given that most Nazis exercised the same level of personal restraint, I think the comparison is entirely reasonable. Gandalf's first response in this thread: polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 11:12am:
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Feb 9th, 2014 at 11:22am freediver wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 10:22am:
Answering "yes" to "should apostates be executed for apostasy" is not a behaviour, it is expressing an opinion. If muslims in Malaysia start killing people for apostasy or adultery, then I'll start judging them for that behaviour. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Feb 9th, 2014 at 11:24am polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 8th, 2014 at 8:54pm:
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Feb 9th, 2014 at 11:37am
Ah I see.
Would you like to ask me if I also judge muslims for holding a stupid, ill-considered opinion? Why yes I do FD - thanks for asking. I wouldn't demonize them and call them "little Hitler's" though - which I believe was the point I was making in that quote. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Feb 9th, 2014 at 7:14pm
Ill-considered? Projecting again, are we? Is this another way for you to say they do not think what they say they think?
Your own actions contradict you. You devoted many threads to making up excuses for them. You felt a desperate need to come up with "alternative" explanations for why Malaysia does not have these barbaric laws that less than 1/3 of the population support, all so that you could pretend the "actions" of these people somehow contradict the views they expressed. Would you support "little Muhammeds" as a politically correct alternative to little Hitlers? It's all the same to me. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by gandalf on Feb 10th, 2014 at 10:59am freediver wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 7:14pm:
I think you are confused about what constitutes projecting and claiming what people think. For all I know these people believe this view of theirs very well considered. In my opinion they are not. Isn't all this about me allegedly making up excuses for these people? Here's me explaining that I never excused them for having this view - I judge it as 'ill considered'. |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Feb 15th, 2014 at 9:35am
My mistake. I thought this was just another way of saying they would change their minds if actually presented with the opportunity.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ill-considered 1. done without due consideration; not thought out: |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 15th, 2014 at 11:46pm polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 9th, 2014 at 11:37am:
Muslims should be proud to be called "little Hitlers", and hail to Hitler and his championing the genocide of Jews, and advancing hatred of Jews as this true Muslim cleric in the Middle East cradle of Muhammadanism does: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viOfDdkonu8 Just as the Islamic Grand Mufti of Jerusalem joined Hitler with several Muslim SS divisions and an Islamic panzer division in Hitler's army: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sk3fKY9PhY Muhammadans have got plenty of anti-Zionist company including David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, Nazis, skinheads, white supremacists, communist Soviets, Louis Farrakan and the "Nation of Islam", George Soros and his Center for American Progress and anti-Semites of all stripes. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_and_jews.htm |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by Grendel on Feb 24th, 2014 at 8:55pm
AL-SHABAB (WHO PLANNED TO ATTACK HOLSWORTHY BARRACKS) EXPLAIN WHY THEY
KILL CHRISTIANS AND APOSTATES Quote:
(Short video interview on Aljazeera) http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2014/02/somalia-al-shabab-group-vows-comeback-20142248557425260.html |
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Title: Re: judge Muslims by actions, not views? Post by freediver on Aug 31st, 2014 at 6:55pm
Bump for Karnal and Brian.
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