Australian Politics Forum - Pew survey of Muslims' opinions

freediver

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Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:22am

This topic has come up a few times lately:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1387333750/36#36

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1386405172/161#161

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379233325/499#499

Thanks Soren for bringing this survey to our attention.

The survey shows some rather disturbing views among many of the world's Muslims:

The attitude of Malaysians was particularly interesting, as Brian had previously insisted they were normal people, on account of him visiting Malaysia and not getting his head chopped off by his servants. He did not have to actually ask those Muslims what they think, but is instead capable of absorbing their knowledge through some kind of osmotic process. The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy and stoning people to death for adultery.

Gandalf often uses Indonesia as an example of a representative country, because it is the biggest Muslim country by population (207 million people, or 87% of the population). This is largely an accident of history - if Muslims had their way, most of them would live in one large Muslim empire, and most of the borders on Muslim countries were drawn up by foreign non-Muslims. Although not as extreme as Malaysia, some 72% (149 million people) of Indonesian Muslims support Shariah law. Of these, 48% (72 million people) support stoning people to death for adultery. That is, there are 72 million little Hitlers right on your doorstep. Of the rest, it is doubtful that many consider the issue to be none of the state's business.

We have seen Muslims on this forum attempt to redefine words like freedom to make Islam appear more benign. This was also reflected in the survey results. Apparently Muslims see no contradiction in stating that a woman should have the right to choose if she wears a veil and also that she must obey her husband:

From the other thread:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:39pm:

I also have a problem with such high numbers supporting this.

You are usually very reluctant to discuss the problems you have with Muslims and Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Did I say it was spin? I even gave you the exact question that was used. I'm merely pointing out that attitudes can change markedly by changing a few words in the question. This is just basic surveys-101. Thus I don't call people barbaric, or "little Hitler's" if they offer ill-considered support for certain barbaric practices - whether it be stoning or drone strikes.

Are these 52% of Malaysian Muslims barbaric?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Have you worked out why some people would take offense to seeing people labelled "little Hitler's" for supporting certain capital punishments yet?

Not really. I think little Hitler is an appropriate description.

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Yadda

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #1 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:49am

But FD, does the information that is portrayed in those graphs, really reflect the honest views and honest intentions of real moslems ? Tongue

i.e.
Every scrap of information [about any issue], is always open to 'interpretation'. [insistent denials will always be presented]

And, self delusion and/or [deceiving and deceitful] 'self interest', are not factors which we can easily take account of [or easily expose as the influencing factor] in the process of human 'reasoning'.

[human 'reasoning' = = justifying our actions]

I think it is sometimes referred to as, 'political machinations' ?

Dictionary;
machinate = = engage in plots and intrigues; scheme.

Graphs and surveys and evidence are fine.

But with ISLAM and moslems, we are fighting against lies and consummate liars.

How to defend ourselves ?

Always pursuing truth and exposing [revealing] what is true, is what can will help us out of a bad place.

Always love truth, and what is true.

+++

Psalms 7:15
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

Proverbs 28:10
Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #2 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:11am

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:22am:

The attitude of Malaysians was particularly interesting, as Brian had previously insisted they were normal people, on account of him visiting Malaysia and not getting his head chopped off by his servants. He did not have to actually ask those Muslims what they think, but is instead capable of absorbing their knowledge through some kind of osmotic process. The majority of Malaysian Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy and stoning people to death for adultery.

I can vouch for Brian - I visit Malaysia at least a couple of times a year to see family. I don't have to ask them about their views on apostasy or adultery to know that they are lovely and accommodating people. Similarly, I don't need to guage the views of Americans on the acceptability of slaughtering children in Pakistan to know whether they are nice people or not.

What you refuse to contemplate is that in both cases, we are talking about an abstract principle, that is as far away from the reality of the individual's day-to-day life as can be: Malaysians don't, and never will, have the opportunity to partake in a stoning and witness the full horrors of what happens, and nor will an average American ever partake in a drone strike in which they must witness women and children getting killed, maimed and/or psychologically traumatised for the rest of their lives.

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:22am:

Gandalf often uses Indonesia as an example of a representative country, because it is the biggest Muslim country by population (207 million people, or 87% of the population). This is largely an accident of history - if Muslims had their way, most of them would live in one large Muslim empire, and most of the borders on Muslim countries were drawn up by foreign non-Muslims.

If muslims "had their way" they could have rallied behind the fundamentalists and established a brutal sharia state by now. Instead they continue to rally behind the democratic secularist parties and shun the islamists. Indonesia is soon to have both Presidential and parliamentary elections, and the only serious contenders will be pro-secular pro-democracy parties. That is what we call "muslims having their way".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #3 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:26am

Quote:

I can vouch for Brian - I visit Malaysia at least a couple of times a year to see family.

And you have never had your head chopped off?

Quote:

I don't have to ask them about their views on apostasy or adultery to know that they are lovely and accommodating people.

How accomodating are they of apostasy and adultery?

Quote:

What you refuse to contemplate is that in both cases, we are talking about an abstract principle, that is as far away from the reality of the individual's day-to-day life as can be

Chopping someone's head off is an abstract principle?

Quote:

If muslims "had their way" they could have rallied behind the fundamentalists and established a brutal sharia state by now.

That's what they frequently do. Only problem for them is they don't all rally behind the same nutjobs.

Quote:

Instead they continue to rally behind the democratic secularist parties and shun the islamists.

Except of course for those who support the Islamists and go about slaughtering the rest.

Quote:

Indonesia is soon to have both Presidential and parliamentary elections, and the only serious contenders will be pro-secular pro-democracy parties. That is what we call "muslims having their way".

Blasphemy is still illegal in Indonesia. That is "muslims having their way".

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #4 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 11:30am

Have you ever been to Malaysia FD? Or any muslim majority country? They say Pauline Hanson had a trip around asia before entering parliament. I'm just wondering where all this irrational hate is coming from.

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:26am:

How accomodating are they of apostasy and adultery?

I have been to muslim gatherings in which known "adulterers" and apostates were invited (though technically, apostasy is legally impossible in Malaysia). People just don't give a sh*t FD - like Brian said, they really are just normal people. About the worst thing that happens is the host gets a little embarrassed when prayer time comes, and wondering whether he should pray in front of them or go to a private place. Or did you really think that Malays prowl around with a predatory look constantly searching out for adulterers or apostates?

Like I said, to them stoning is just an abstract principle that is as far away from their reality as you can get. Ask them an inconsequential question about a principle that they know they will never see in real life, they'll answer 'yes' - but actually put a stone in their hands and say "beat that adulterer to death", and they will undoubtedly reel in horror.

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:26am:

Chopping someone's head off is an abstract principle?

When it never has and never will happen in the society they live in - of course it is. Should I expect a new thread to be started about this? Roll Eyes

freediver wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 10:26am:

That's what they frequently do. Only problem for them is they don't all rally behind the same nutjobs.

Not in Indonesia. Please get a clue about Indonesian politics.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #5 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:03pm

Quote:

Have you ever been to Malaysia FD? Or any muslim majority country? They say Pauline Hanson had a trip around asia before entering parliament. I'm just wondering where all this irrational hate is coming from.

Oh look, Gandalf is ignoring what I actually post and replacing it with more fantasy.

Quote:

I have been to muslim gatherings in which known "adulterers" and apostates were invited (though technically, apostasy is legally impossible in Malaysia). People just don't give a sh*t FD

Is that why the majority of Malaysian Muslims want to chop apostates heads off? Would they get an invite to their own beheading do you think? Perhaps they would get an invite to their own reversion ceremony, with the beheading scheduled for shortly after if they don't accept the invite.

Quote:

like Brian said, they really are just normal people

Who want to chop people's heads off and stone them to death.

Quote:

Like I said, to them stoning is just an abstract principle that is as far away from their reality as you can get.

That is like saying that for Neo-nazis it is an abstract principle, because they weren't alive when the Jews were going into the gas chambers. It is the lamest possible cop-out, but hardly surprising from a Muslim.

Abu Hurairah narrates that the Prophet said: “One who keeps the faults of a Muslim secret in this world, Allah will keep his faults in the Hereafter

Quote:

Ask them an inconsequential question about a principle that they know they will never see in real life, they'll answer 'yes' - but actually put a stone in their hands and say "beat that adulterer to death", and they will undoubtedly reel in horror.

How do you know this? I hope you realise that it does not take an entire country to stone people to death. Even Abu, who supports stoning, said he would not personally get involved. But he would still support it. That way it would remain abstract, but people still get stoned to death. It's like meat eaters who buy their meat from a butcher so they don't have to slaughter the animal themselves. They still support the consumption of meat and the slaughter of animals. They even support the industry financially. Their unwillingness to get personally involved does not help any of the animals. If anything it makes it worse. Yet here you are applying the same standard to slaughtering people in one of the most brutal ways imaginable, and you expect us to be naive enough to think it is all OK if they would prefer to let someone else do the slaughtering.

If this is too confusing for you I'm sure I could come up with a suitable Nazi analogy. Did you know most Nazis were normal people who would have reeled in horror at a gas chamber? We really should cut Nazis more slack eh?

Quote:

When it never has and never will happen in the society they live in - of course it is. Should I expect a new thread to be started about this?

I'll think about it. It is a pretty stupid thing to say. It did take a new thread to make you see common sense on rape convictions. Not sure why, but it worked.

Quote:

Not in Indonesia. Please get a clue about Indonesian politics.

They already have their way on a number of issues. Did you know that Indonesia jails religious leaders for blasphemy?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20023 Canberra Gender:	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #6 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:13pm I really should just let your posts go uncommented, and let your stupidity speak for itself.
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ian

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #7 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm

Like Gandalf I travel to Malaysia and Indonesia frequently and have been doing so for decades. I have also spent some time in arguably the most fundamentalist part of Indonesia, Aceh. I have not witnessed or heard of any stonings or beheadings, neither have I ever heard anyone express an opinion promoting such extremism. However, I have on occasion witnessed some rough village justice not resulting in death, this seems to be at the heart of Sharia law. the ability of the local community to use local customary law to decide the fate of the transgressors involved .Personally I thnk this system works very well for the villagers and can not see why this should be a concern for us in Australia or any other country. Their local (Sharia) law is their law. In a remote provinvce where Muslims and Christians live side by side I once even intervened when a (Muslim) local was about to be macheted to death for being an alleged peeping tom, (both parties were known to me) the one administering the justice was a Christian. I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

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ian

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #8 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:50pm

BTW FD, apparently about 2 million Indos a year are converting to Christianity, I don't think any of these people have had their heads chopped off

Quote:

KUALA LUMPUR, Aug 6 — A Christian-majority Indonesia could be a threat to a small Muslim nation like Malaysia, controversial academic Ridhuan Tee Abdullah has said as growing Christian proselytisation in the Southeast Asian giant fuels fears of Islam’s followers leaving the religion.

The Chinese-Muslim convert was weighing in on a recent furore in the world’s most populous Muslim nation that is experiencing a growing wave of converts to Christianity — as many as two million people a year — that had sparked a recent campaign to reverse the religious trend called “Save Maryam”.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/christian-indonesia-a-big-threat-to-malaysia-says-muslim-academic/

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Grendel

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #9 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:11pm

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

Like Gandalf I travel to Malaysia and Indonesia frequently and have been doing so for decades. I have also spent some time in arguably the most fundamentalist part of Indonesia, Aceh. I have not witnessed or heard of any stonings or beheadings, neither have I ever heard anyone express an opinion promoting such extremism. However, I have on occasion witnessed some rough village justice not resulting in death, this seems to be at the heart of Sharia law. the ability of the local community to use local customary law to decide the fate of the transgressors involved .Personally I thnk this system works very well for the villagers and can not see why this should be a concern for us in Australia or any other country. Their local (Sharia) law is their law. In a remote provinvce where Muslims and Christians live side by side I once even intervened when a (Muslim) local was about to be macheted to death for being an alleged peeping tom, (both parties were known to me) the one administering the justice was a Christian. I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

Just because you are unaware of things Ian doesn't mean they don't happen. Roll Eyes

I'm aware and I just listen and read to the media available here.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Hundreds-of-Muslim-extremists-attack-Christian-pr...
http://www.christiannewstoday.com/Christian_News_Report_9005091021.html
http://www.persecution.org/2013/01/31/tightened-sharia-in-aceh-worrisome-for-ind...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2457&dat=20050107&id=Aiw0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=QOE...
http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/indonesia-islamic-extremists-for...
http://americanintelligence.us/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&bl...
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3768/indonesia-extremism

and the list goes on and on and on.... Roll Eyes

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #10 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:24pm Try to keep up Grendel, we aren't talking about ethnic violence which I am fully aware exists and have personally experienced. The subject is the attitudes of Muslims towards sharia law. While you are at it you can detail your first hand knowledge of what occurs in these countries.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #11 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:24pm

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

I suspect because the responders are completely detached from their own personal reality when answering such questions. Asking "should adulterers be stoned" to a person who has never known the practice, and who is acutely aware that the practice will never be implemented in his society is obviously completely different to dragging an actual adulterer up to the same person and asking them to condemn them to death via stoning.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #12 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:27pm Yes, I agree, also suspect these surveys offer "loaded" questions. I wouldn't mind seeing the format and context of the questions.
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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions Reply #13 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 1:30pm let me also make the point that Indonesia already effectively allows customary or Sharia law to prevail over state law. But not just for Muslims, most ethnic groups are allowed to use customary or local law ahead of state law.
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Yadda

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Re: Pew survey of Muslims' opinions
Reply #14 - Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 3:52pm

Awaiting the expected responses to evidence such as the Pew survey results;

#1,
Yadda suggests an expected response;

Yadda wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 9:49am:

But FD, does the information that is portrayed in those graphs, really reflect the honest views and honest intentions of real moslems ? Tongue

i.e.
Every scrap of information [about any issue], is always open to 'interpretation'. [insistent denials will always be presented]

#2,
And ian obliges on cue;

ian wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

I find these Pew survey results at odds with my personal experience and find it strange that all these "surveys" show such extreme views.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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