Australian Politics Forum - The fallacy of the Greens

Bobby.

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The fallacy of the Greens
May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop
in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.
Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day
at a rapid rate especially in China and India.

Anything we do is purely symbolic.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-perc...

Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80%
of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report.

Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that

China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam
plan to build more than 600 coal power units

,
even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #1 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:34am

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #2 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:49am

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am:

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop
in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.
Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day
at a rapid rate especially in China and India.

Anything we do is purely symbolic.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-perc...

Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80%
of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report.

Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that

China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam
plan to build more than 600 coal power units

,
even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants

This is literal bullshit on more than one level. Renewables are inevitable, cheaper, and the next growth industry. We can't control other countries, but we control what we do. Our coal exports make us one of the biggest countries creating climate emissions

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #3 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:50am

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:34am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Imagine being so stupid, you think 'the best coal in the world' is a sentence with real meaning

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #4 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:53am

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:50am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:34am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Imagine being so stupid, you think 'the best coal in the world' is a sentence with real meaning

We have Anthracite coal - do you even know what that is?

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #5 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:54am

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:49am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am:

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop
in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.
Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day
at a rapid rate especially in China and India.

Anything we do is purely symbolic.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-perc...

Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80%
of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report.

Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that

China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam
plan to build more than 600 coal power units

,
even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants

This is literal bullshit on more than one level. Renewables are inevitable, cheaper, and the next growth industry. We can't control other countries, but we control what we do. Our coal exports make us one of the biggest countries creating climate emissions

Except that if we don't export it we'll be a very poor country
and other countries will burn far worse poor quality coal.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #6 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:56am

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:54am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:49am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am:

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop
in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.
Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day
at a rapid rate especially in China and India.

Anything we do is purely symbolic.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-perc...

Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80%
of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report.

Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that

China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam
plan to build more than 600 coal power units

,
even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants

This is literal bullshit on more than one level. Renewables are inevitable, cheaper, and the next growth industry. We can't control other countries, but we control what we do. Our coal exports make us one of the biggest countries creating climate emissions

Except that if we don't export it we'll be a very poor country
and other countries will burn far worse poor quality coal.

Imagine thinking it's an economy to sell off chunks of the country....

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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21899 Gordon Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #7 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:01am Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power. If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it them may accept it.
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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #8 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:10am Gordon wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:01am: Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power. If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it they may accept it. What about waiting for Thorium power? https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150#150
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #9 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:14am Gordon wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:01am: Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power. If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it them may accept it. Nuclear is dirty and not needed
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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #10 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:19am

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:14am:

Gordon wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:01am:

Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power.
If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it them may accept it.

Nuclear is dirty and not needed

Nuclear waste takes too long to decay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste

Some common nuclear waste half lives:

Plutonium 239 half life    24,110 years.
Americium 241 half life       432 years
Radium 226    Half life    1,600 years
Uranium 236 Half life 15 million years.
Plutonium 244 Half life 80 million years
Uranium 235 Half life 704 million years
Uranium 238 half life    4.5 billion years

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #11 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:21am

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:19am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:14am:

Gordon wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:01am:

Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power.
If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it them may accept it.

Nuclear is dirty and not needed

Nuclear waste takes too long to decay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste

Some common nuclear waste half lives:

Plutonium 239 half life    24,110 years.
Americium 241 half life       432 years
Radium 226    Half life    1,600 years
Uranium 236 Half life 15 million years.
Plutonium 244 Half life 80 million years
Uranium 235 Half life 704 million years
Uranium 238 half life    4.5 billion years

Those numbers look similar to my estimate of when Liberals might win power again...

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #12 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:11am So - FutureTheLeftWant - how does it feel that the party you support has policies based on a fallacy?
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #13 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:14am Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:11am: So - FutureTheLeftWant - how does it feel that the party you support has policies based on a fallacy? My God the right cry a lot. What policies do you mean?
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #14 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:16am Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am: Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world. it's that sort of stupidity that saw the libs annihilated last night.
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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #15 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:22am FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:14am: Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:11am: So - FutureTheLeftWant - how does it feel that the party you support has policies based on a fallacy? My God the right cry a lot. What policies do you mean? Now you're playing silly buggers - read the first 2 posts.
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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #16 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:25am

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:22am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:14am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:11am:

So - FutureTheLeftWant -

how does it feel that the party you support has policies based on a fallacy?

My God the right cry a lot.

What policies do you mean?

Now you're playing silly buggers -
read the first 2 posts.

Greens want to limit use of coal. What are you talking about?

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #17 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:15pm The Greens in Germany voted to clear a large part of Reinhardswald "Grimms Fairytale Forest" for a massive wind farm. It has met large resistance. And in reality back to coal. Because they can't get enough gas and their renewables aren't capable.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #18 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:22pm

lee wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:15pm:

The Greens in Germany voted to clear a large part of Reinhardswald "Grimms Fairytale Forest" for a massive wind farm. It has met large resistance.

The EU (especially Germany) of course should be engineering the Sahara to supply renewables to the EU.

Including off-shore wind and batteries, France has sufficient nuclear power to back the EU grid at night.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #19 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:22pm:

The EU (especially Germany) of course should be engineering the Sahara to supply renewables to the EU.

Yet another numpty who believes every problem has an engineering solution. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:22pm:

France has sufficient nuclear power to back the EU grid at night.

France is going to build more nuclear. Wink

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #20 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:30pm

John Smith wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:16am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am:

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop
in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.

it's that sort of stupidity that saw the libs annihilated last night.

So tell us how much we have to increase CO2 emissions to reach "Net Zero"?

We are a carbon sink. Even The Conversation agrees -

"So while our ecosystems have remained a net sink over the last 20 years, it’s worth asking:"

https://theconversation.com/in-20-years-of-studying-how-ecosystems-absorb-carbon...

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #21 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:18pm

https://greens.org.au/platform/climate

The Greens plan includes:

Immediately ban the construction of new coal, oil and gas infrastructure, ensuring we can transition our economy to zero carbon energy while maintaining a safe climate

Help out mining workers and communities by creating long term, sustainable industries to assist in the move beyond fossil fuels and to ensure people do not lose work

Phase out the mining, burning and export of thermal coal by 2030 to ensure we do our bit, so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #22 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:20pm

Quote:

so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff

Fact check - it's a fallacy -

Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make
no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature.
The damage is not being done here in Australia.
It's countries like China and India that need to do something.

China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam
plan to build more than 600 coal power units.

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« Last Edit: May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:32pm by Bobby. »

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #23 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:23pm

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:20pm:

Quote:

so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff

Fact check - it's a fallacy -

Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make
no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature.
The damage is not being done here in Australia.
It's countries like China and India that need to do something.

Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby?

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GOP = Guardians Of Paedophiles

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #24 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:25pm

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:20pm:

Quote:

so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff

Fact check - it's a fallacy -

Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make
no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature.
The damage is not being done here in Australia.
It's countries like China and India that need to do something.

Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby?

What for?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #25 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:26pm

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:25pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:20pm:

Quote:

so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff

Fact check - it's a fallacy -

Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make
no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature.
The damage is not being done here in Australia.
It's countries like China and India that need to do something.

Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby?

What for?

To leave the country.

Anthony Albanese is your Prime Minister

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GOP = Guardians Of Paedophiles

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #26 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:31pm

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:26pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:25pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:20pm:

Quote:

so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff

Fact check - it's a fallacy -

Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make
no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature.
The damage is not being done here in Australia.
It's countries like China and India that need to do something.

Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby?

What for?

To leave the country.

Anthony Albanese is your Prime Minister

I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account
for their climate policies based on a fallacy.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #27 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:34pm

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:26pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:25pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:20pm:

Quote:

so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff

Fact check - it's a fallacy -

Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make
no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature.
The damage is not being done here in Australia.
It's countries like China and India that need to do something.

Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby?

What for?

To leave the country.

Anthony Albanese is your Prime Minister

I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account
for their climate policies based on a fallacy.

Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay?

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GOP = Guardians Of Paedophiles

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #28 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:41pm

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:31pm:

I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account
for their climate policies based on a fallacy.

Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay?

What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense
which won't make a scrap of difference in the world.
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

The only possible answer is what has been discussed on this forum
and that is a new age of Thorium nuclear power.
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150

Unfortunately they can't seem to iron out the technical problems fast enough.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #29 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:46pm

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:41pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:31pm:

I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account
for their climate policies based on a fallacy.

Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay?

What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense
which won't make a scrap of difference in the world.
It won't stop:
the fires

Well, no.

The only way to stop the fires is to knock out the Jewish space lasers.

Have they released any policies dealing with that?

Maybe they should consult with Perjury Traitor Greene.

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Sir lastnail Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30923 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #30 - May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:58pm John Smith wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:16am: Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am: Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world. it's that sort of stupidity that saw the libs annihilated last night. then stop exporting the sh.t altogether is the answer
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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #31 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 7:30am

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:31pm:

I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account
for their climate policies based on a fallacy.

Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay?

What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense
which won't make a scrap of difference in the world.
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

The only possible answer is what has been discussed on this forum
and that is a new age of Thorium nuclear power.
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150

Unfortunately they can't seem to iron out the technical problems fast enough.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #32 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 7:35am

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 7:30am:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:31pm:

I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account
for their climate policies based on a fallacy.

Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay?

What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense
which won't make a scrap of difference in the world.
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

The only possible answer is what has been discussed on this forum
and that is a new age of Thorium nuclear power.
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150

Unfortunately they can't seem to iron out the technical problems fast enough.

Solar and wind are the cheapest ways to generate power today

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #33 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 7:37am FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 7:35am: Solar and wind are the cheapest ways to generate power today That's true and at least it's here now and not a promised technology which never seems to eventuate.
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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #34 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:45am Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income - Alan Jones
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #35 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:46am Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:45am: Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income - Alan Jones This guy is a stupid front bottom and a liar LOL!!!
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 57086 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #36 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:54am Conservative Right Wing Greens do not support the radical left wing Greens who now incorporate 'violent' measures.
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #37 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:01am Jasin wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:54am: Conservative Right Wing Greens do not support the radical left wing Greens who now incorporate 'violent' measures. You will need to explain what the bugger you're talking about.... The right are always violence. Right wing violence has been a constant in my life for a decade.
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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #38 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:06am FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:46am: Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:45am: Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income - Alan Jones This guy is a stupid front bottom and a liar LOL!!! No he's not - we are about to lose $379b of export income if the Greens get their way.
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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #39 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:07am

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:06am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:46am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:45am:

Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income -

Alan Jones

This guy is a stupid front bottom and a liar LOL!!!

No he's not - we are about to lose $379b of export income
if the Greens get their way.

You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #40 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:10am FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:07am: You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet The Greens have reckless ideas all based on a fallacy.
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #41 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:12am Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:10am: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:07am: You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet The Greens have reckless ideas all based on a fallacy. Yes, science is scary to old people
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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #42 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:23am

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:12am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:10am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:07am:

You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet

The Greens have reckless ideas all based on a fallacy.

Yes, science is scary to old people

You are an intellectual midget -

you've failed to counter any point that I've made.

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buzzanddidj

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #43 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:24am

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:10am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:07am:

You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet

The Greens have reckless ideas all based on a fallacy.

The "right"

have ALWAYS claimed climate change is a "fallacy"
The electorate is not buying it - as we saw on Saturday

The only

environmental, sustainable, renewable

window dressing the

Coal-ition

have ever shown was to try and grab a few votes

..

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'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #44 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:27am Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:23am: You are an intellectual midget - you've failed to counter any point that I've made. Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever. Read a book.
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buzzanddidj

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #45 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 11:47am

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:46am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:45am:

Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income -

Alan Jones

This guy is a stupid front bottom and a liar LOL!!!

... and the one who famously boasted on

QANDA

that as a friend and

political adviser to John Howard

,told him that

it doesn't matter if you lie

- if it gets you elected

.

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'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #46 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 1:09pm

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:41pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:31pm:

I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account
for their climate policies based on a fallacy.

Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay?

What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense.
which won't make a scrap of difference in the world.

People are very susceptible to 'feel good nonsense' because there is a cost of living crisis, owing to the current failing economic orthodoxy based on private financiers funding government, and false theories of inflation and interest rates.

Quote:

It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

The only possible answer is what has been discussed on this forum
and that is a new age of Thorium nuclear power.
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150

Yes, free unlimited energy, but private financiers would still insist on keeping the profits for themselves, even though the energy could be mostly free (since it's unlimited).

Quote:

Unfortunately they can't seem to iron out the technical problems fast enough.

But they COULD roll out massive solar and wind globally NOW, with current nuclear probably sufficient for back up.

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Dnarever

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #47 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 1:19pm

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:54am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:49am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am:

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop
in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.
Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day
at a rapid rate especially in China and India.

Anything we do is purely symbolic.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-perc...

Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80%
of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report.

Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that

China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam
plan to build more than 600 coal power units

,
even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants

This is literal bullshit on more than one level. Renewables are inevitable, cheaper, and the next growth industry. We can't control other countries, but we control what we do. Our coal exports make us one of the biggest countries creating climate emissions

Except that if we don't export it we'll be a very poor country
and other countries will burn far worse poor quality coal.

Some of these Asian countries have similar arguments. where without coal power their people will have no light power employment etc.

We should be slowly winding down coal mining and winding down coal export even quicker.

2010 would have been a good target date.

At one time Australia was a world leader but successive Liberal governments have turned us into another group dragging its feet.

We could have been in a position to be selling clean power technology to the world instead we are still an embarrassment on the fringe of the do nothing or less brigade.

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #48 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:06pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:27am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:23am:

You are an intellectual midget -

you've failed to counter any point that I've made.

Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever. Read a book.

I'm still waiting for you - try again -

if we closed down Australia now:
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

Whatever we do is a drop in the ocean compared
to countries like China and India.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #49 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:12pm

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:06pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:27am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:23am:

You are an intellectual midget -

you've failed to counter any point that I've made.

Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever. Read a book.

I'm still waiting for you - try again -

if we closed down Australia now:
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

Whatever we do is a drop in the ocean compared
to countries like China and India.

This remains an argument for no one to do anything

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #50 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:20pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:12pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:06pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:27am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:23am:

You are an intellectual midget -

you've failed to counter any point that I've made.

Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever. Read a book.

I'm still waiting for you - try again -

if we closed down Australia now:
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

Whatever we do is a drop in the ocean compared
to countries like China and India.

This remains an argument for no one to do anything

It would be great if we could go 100% renewable but
only as a symbolic gesture to the rest of the world.
We could stand tall knowing that we had done the right thing
but countries like China and India would not change their ways.
They have refused to stop building coal fired power stations.
They are building more 24 hours a day.

However - China and India are making the most serious
effort to design the first full scale Thorium nuclear reactors.
That would be cheap, unlimited, safe, Green power.
I wish them well with that.
If they don't succeed we're all in trouble.
The Yanks had a small research molten salt reactor in the mid 1970s
but they closed it down.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #51 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:23pm

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:12pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:06pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:27am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:23am:

You are an intellectual midget -

you've failed to counter any point that I've made.

Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever. Read a book.

I'm still waiting for you - try again -

if we closed down Australia now:
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

Whatever we do is a drop in the ocean compared
to countries like China and India.

This remains an argument for no one to do anything

It would be great if we could go 100% renewable but
only as a symbolic gesture to the rest of the world.
We could stand tall knowing that we had done the right thing
but countries like China and India would not change their ways.
They have refused to stop building coal fired power stations.
They are building more 24 hours a day.

However - China and India are making the most serious
effort to design the first full scale Thorium nuclear reactors.
That would be cheap, unlimited, safe, Green power.
I wish them well with that.
If they don't succeed we're all in trouble.
The Yanks had a small research molten salt reactor in the mid 1970s
but they closed it down.

China is using coal as a bridging technology, yes

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #52 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 4:19pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:23pm: China is using coal as a bridging technology, yes A bridge too far?
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John Smith

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #53 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 5:32pm

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:06pm:

if we closed down Australia now:
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

A. no one is talking about closing down Australia
B. Do something now, and your grandkids might see the result, do nothing and 'wait for china', and your grandkids will still be having the same argument but from inside oxygen tents

tell me goober, do you not mow your lawn if your neighbour doesn't mow his?

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #54 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 10:01pm

John Smith wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 5:32pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:06pm:

if we closed down Australia now:
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

A. no one is talking about closing down Australia
B. Do something now, and your grandkids might see the result, do nothing and 'wait for china', and your grandkids will still be having the same argument but from inside oxygen tents

tell me goober, do you not mow your lawn if your neighbour doesn't mow his?

John,
you know you're not allowed to post in the Environment forum?

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1612043899

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #55 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 11:48pm .
Back to top	coal_fire_power_stations_graph.jpg (120 KB \| 31 ) IP Logged

Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #56 - May 23^rd, 2022 at 11:53pm This link shows different numbers: https://www.statista.com/statistics/859266/number-of-coal-power-plants-by-countr... 1,110 in China.
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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #57 - May 24^th, 2022 at 12:10am

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of...

China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants

Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China
Environment 26 April 2022

By Adam Vaughan

Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants.

Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year.

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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #58 - May 24^th, 2022 at 7:48am Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 11:48pm: . My God, she triggers boomers.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #59 - May 24^th, 2022 at 11:49am "Swedish Greens struggle in Greta’s shadow " https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-greens-struggle-greta-thunberg-shadow/
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #60 - May 24^th, 2022 at 10:23pm

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 12:10am:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of...

China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants

Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China
Environment 26 April 2022

By Adam Vaughan

Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants.

Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year.

Among a population with av. GDP per capita c.$5000 (probably less, on average)

So, the rich world has to step up. How much are you prepared to instruct your government to assist poor nations in Africa and Asia ?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #61 - May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm

lee wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 4:19pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:23pm:

China is using coal as a bridging technology, yes

A bridge too far? Wink

Well, Chinese GDP per capita is just c.$10,000 - still below middle income status, despite lifting a billion people out of absolute poverty at the fastest rate in history, since 1990. China has every right to continue that projectory.

And Chinese emission per capita are a fifth of the US.

So if you insist on forcing the Chinese to rely on their own resources, you can't complain about them continuing to employ coal as a bridge technology, while they transition to nuclear and renewables (planned to be completed by 2060).

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #62 - May 24^th, 2022 at 10:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 12:10am:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of...

China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants

Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China
Environment 26 April 2022

By Adam Vaughan

Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants.

Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year.

Among a population with av. GDP per capita c.$5000 (probably less, on average)

So, the rich world has to step up. How much are you prepared to instruct your government to assist poor nations in Africa and Asia ?

China is the 2nd or even the 1st richest nation in the world.
We're a nation in massive debt.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #63 - May 25^th, 2022 at 12:01am

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 12:10am:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of...

China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants

Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China
Environment 26 April 2022

By Adam Vaughan

Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants.

Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year.

Among a population with av. GDP per capita c.$5000 (probably less, on average)

So, the rich world has to step up. How much are you prepared to instruct your government to assist poor nations in Africa and Asia ?

China is the 2nd or even the 1st richest nation in the world.
We're a nation in massive debt.

You don't understand per capita wealth, cf GDP.

While China - with a $15 trillion economy- can afford to put a rover on Mars, unlike Oz whose GDP is simply not large enough, China cannot afford to go green as fast as Oz, because a green transition requires every citizen to be moderately wealthy if the nation is to be able to fund the transition to produce sufficient green energy for every citizen.

Do the math: a billion people transitioning to green costs 40 times as much to transition as 25 million people to transition, ie the Chinese GDP would have to be 40 times more than Oz's GDP. - c. $60 trillion (40 times $1.5 trillion).

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« Last Edit: May 25^th, 2022 at 12:08am by thegreatdivide »

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #64 - May 25^th, 2022 at 12:11am

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 12:01am:

You don't understand per capita wealth, cf GDP.

While China - with a $15 trillion economy- can afford to put a rover on Mars, unlike Oz whose GDP is simply not large enough, China cannot afford to go green as fast as Oz, because a green transition requires every citizen to be moderately wealthy if the nation is to be able to fund the transition to produce sufficient green energy for every citizen.

Do the math: a billion people transitioning to green costs 40 times as much to transition as 25 million people to transition, ie the Chinese GDP would have to be 40 times more than Oz's GDP. - c. $60 trillion (40 times $1.5 trillion).

Don't be an apologist for the worst polluting country on Earth.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #65 - May 25^th, 2022 at 12:18pm

Bobby. wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 12:11am:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 12:01am:

You don't understand per capita wealth, cf GDP.

While China - with a $15 trillion economy- can afford to put a rover on Mars, unlike Oz whose GDP is simply not large enough, China cannot afford to go green as fast as Oz, because a green transition requires every citizen to be moderately wealthy if the nation is to be able to fund the transition to produce sufficient green energy for every citizen.

Do the math: a billion people transitioning to green costs 40 times as much to transition as 25 million people to transition, ie the Chinese GDP would have to be 40 times more than Oz's GDP. - c. $60 trillion (40 times $1.5 trillion).

Don't be an apologist for the worst polluting country on Earth.

Stop accusing China of not doing enough, when Australians - who are 5 times as wealthy as Chinese per capita - emit 5 times as much CO2 per capita as Chinese.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #66 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:07pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

And Chinese emission per capita are a fifth of the US.

The old per capita schlock. Grin

Total emissions are supposed to be the problem. If it is only per capita we can stand back and let China catch up. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

So if you insist on forcing the Chinese to rely on their own resources, you can't complain about them continuing to employ coal as a bridge technology, while they transition to nuclear and renewables (planned to be completed by 2060).

Who's complaining? Plants love CO2. They grow best when fed up to 1500ppm. At 180ppm they tend to die.

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« Last Edit: May 25^th, 2022 at 1:18pm by lee »

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #67 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:10pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:07pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

And Chinese emission per capita are a fifth of the US.

The old per capita schlock. Grin

Total emissions are supposed to be the problem. If it is only per capita we can stand back and let China catch up. Roll Eyes

The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure. That measures the overall direction of society instead of skewing for demographics.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #68 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:20pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:10pm: The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure. Nope. Total CO2 emissions are the best because we can see which countries are the biggest emitters. So therefore it can't be "the only way".
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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #69 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:21pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:10pm:

The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure.

Nope. Total CO2 emissions are the best because we can see which countries are the biggest emitters.

So therefore it can't be "the only way". Roll Eyes

Total emissions clearly matter, but if China has 30 times the people as Australia and creates twice the pollution, they are clearly doing more about pollution than we are

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #70 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:39pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:21pm:

Total emissions clearly matter, but if China has 30 times the people as Australia and creates twice the pollution, they are clearly doing more about pollution than we are

Wow. that was deep - NOT. Larger power plants are more efficient than smaller ones.

The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #71 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:41pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:39pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:21pm:

Total emissions clearly matter, but if China has 30 times the people as Australia and creates twice the pollution, they are clearly doing more about pollution than we are

Wow. that was deep - NOT. Larger power plants are more efficient than smaller ones.

The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding.

Scrubbers. LOL!!!

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #72 - May 25^th, 2022 at 2:00pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:41pm: Scrubbers. LOL!!! Oh dear. Thinking of your wife again?
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #73 - May 25^th, 2022 at 2:02pm lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:00pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:41pm: Scrubbers. LOL!!! Oh dear. Thinking of your wife again? All 'clean coal' technology is bullshit
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #74 - May 25^th, 2022 at 2:12pm lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:39pm: The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding. Why is that?
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #75 - May 25^th, 2022 at 2:18pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:12pm: lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:39pm: The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding. Why is that? Because banks won't fund investing in dead technology
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #76 - May 25^th, 2022 at 2:24pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:18pm: Because banks won't fund investing in dead technology And yet coal plants are still being built in India, China and elsewhere. They can be built with scrubbers etc far more easily than retrofit.
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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #77 - May 25^th, 2022 at 2:30pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:24pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:18pm:

Because banks won't fund investing in dead technology

And yet coal plants are still being built in India, China and elsewhere. They can be built with scrubbers etc far more easily than retrofit.

Yes, they have different banks. Duh.

Scrubbers are still bullshit

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #78 - May 25^th, 2022 at 3:43pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

Yes, they have different banks. Duh.

And so don't rely on the IMF, World Bank. Thank you. Wink

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

Scrubbers are still bullshit

From one who knows bullsh!t. Grin

"Reality: Scrubbers are very efficient air pollution control devices, and can remove greater than 95 percent of the SO2 from power plant stack emissions. … In fact, SO2 removal efficiencies often are as high as 98 percent to 99 percent. Scrubbers with advanced designs routinely meet targeted efficiencies of 95 percent."

https://kfs-solutions.com/application/how-do-coal-power-plant-scrubbers-work.htm...

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #79 - May 25^th, 2022 at 4:00pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 3:43pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

Yes, they have different banks. Duh.

And so don't rely on the IMF, World Bank. Thank you. Wink

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

Scrubbers are still bullshit

From one who knows bullsh!t. Grin

"Reality: Scrubbers are very efficient air pollution control devices, and can remove greater than 95 percent of the SO2 from power plant stack emissions. … In fact, SO2 removal efficiencies often are as high as 98 percent to 99 percent. Scrubbers with advanced designs routinely meet targeted efficiencies of 95 percent."

https://kfs-solutions.com/application/how-do-coal-power-plant-scrubbers-work.htm...

The actual issue is that the right are literal human garbage LOL!!!

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #80 - May 25^th, 2022 at 4:35pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 4:00pm: The actual issue is that the right are literal human garbage LOL!!! Oh good comeback.
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #81 - May 25^th, 2022 at 4:36pm lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 4:35pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 4:00pm: The actual issue is that the right are literal human garbage LOL!!! Oh good comeback. It just gets boring TBH. You add nothing.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #82 - May 25^th, 2022 at 5:13pm You haven't for the entirety; but don't be too disheartened.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #83 - May 25^th, 2022 at 5:58pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 3:43pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

Yes, they have different banks. Duh.

And so don't rely on the IMF, World Bank. Thank you. Wink

This is your answer to my question, why don't (eg, Indian) banks fund "clean" coal.

Fact is India is not rich enough to fund either "clean" coal, or renewables with storage and inter-connectors.

Quote:

"Reality: Scrubbers are very efficient air pollution control devices, and can remove greater than 95 percent of the SO2 from power plant stack emissions. … In fact, SO2 removal efficiencies often are as high as 98 percent to 99 percent. Scrubbers with advanced designs routinely meet targeted efficiencies of 95 percent."

https://kfs-solutions.com/application/how-do-coal-power-plant-scrubbers-work.htm...

Yes, so how much should the rich world pay the 3rd world to install scrubbers on their existing fleet.

Yet SO2 is only one of many health hazards from burning coal, apart from the coal ash disposal problem.

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John Smith

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #84 - May 25^th, 2022 at 6:03pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:10pm:

The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure.

Nope. Total CO2 emissions are the best because we can see which countries are the biggest emitters.

So therefore it can't be "the only way". Roll Eyes

rubbish. Using total is always going to go bad for the countries with higher populations.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #85 - May 25^th, 2022 at 6:11pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 5:58pm:

This is your answer to my question, why don't (eg, Indian) banks fund "clean" coal.

Fact is India is not rich enough to fund either "clean" coal, or renewables with storage and inter-connectors.

And yet they are doing so. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 5:58pm:

Yet SO2 is only one of many health hazards from burning coal, apart from the coal ash disposal problem.

Oh dear. Failure to do your research again.

"Coal-fired electricity generation is cleaner than ever. NETL’s research shows that a new coal plant with pollution controls reduces nitrogen oxides by 83 percent, sulfur dioxide by 98 percent, and particulate matter by 99.8 percent compared to plants without controls."

https://kfs-solutions.com/application/frequent-question-what-is-coal-scrubbing.h...

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #86 - May 25^th, 2022 at 6:12pm

John Smith wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 6:03pm:

rubbish. Using total is always going to go bad for the countries with higher populations.

I'm not the one wailing about CO2 emissions. And CO2 emissions is total.

Try researching small counties and small populations.

Eg Australia - large country, small population - large transport distances.

Germany population 84 million or 3.5 times ours. Area 357,000 sq km slightly larger than Victoria and Tasmania combined.

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« Last Edit: May 25^th, 2022 at 6:34pm by lee »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #87 - May 25^th, 2022 at 8:31pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 6:12pm:

John Smith wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 6:03pm:

rubbish. Using total is always going to go bad for the countries with higher populations.

I'm not the one wailing about CO2 emissions. And CO2 emissions is total.

Most of the rest of the world IS wailing about CO2 emissions.

Quote:

Try researching small counties and small populations.

Irrelevant, if CO2 emissions are the problem.

You don't get a free pass just because the Oz pop is 25 million (in a country as big as China)

Quote:

Eg Australia - large country, small population - large transport distances.

But George St. in Sydney is still a health hazard, given the clapped out diesel trucks traversing it.

Quote:

Germany population 84 million or 3.5 times ours. Area 357,000 sq km slightly larger than Victoria and Tasmania combined.

Irrelevant on BOTH counts as shown above, whether CO2 or hazardous chemicals from filthy fossil combustion.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #88 - May 25^th, 2022 at 8:36pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 6:11pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 5:58pm:

This is your answer to my question, why don't (eg, Indian) banks fund "clean" coal.

Fact is India is not rich enough to fund either "clean" coal, or renewables with storage and inter-connectors.

And yet they are doing so. Wink

No they are burning 'dirty coal', and poisoning localities with coal ash.

Quote:

Oh dear. Failure to do your research again.

"Coal-fired electricity generation is cleaner than ever. NETL’s research shows that a new coal plant with pollution controls reduces nitrogen oxides by 83 percent, sulfur dioxide by 98 percent, and particulate matter by 99.8 percent compared to plants without controls."

https://kfs-solutions.com/application/frequent-question-what-is-coal-scrubbing.h...

[/quote]

And how many of India's coal plants meet those standards?

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #89 - May 25^th, 2022 at 9:03pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:36pm:

No they are burning 'dirty coal', and poisoning localities with coal ash.

What exactly don't you understand about NEW cola plants? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:36pm:

And how many of India's coal plants meet those standards?

The NEW ones. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

Most of the rest of the world IS wailing about CO2 emissions.

ost

Define MOST.

"Climate Change At Bottom Of List Of Worries For German Households, Comprehensive 8-Year Survey Shows"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH6UABh3Xck&t=341s

(in German)

or

https://notrickszone.com/2022/05/21/climate-change-at-bottom-of-list-of-worries-...

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

Irrelevant, if CO2 emissions are the problem.

And you still haven't made the case for CO2 wotdunnit. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

But George St. in Sydney is still a health hazard, given the clapped out diesel trucks traversing it.

You haven't even got something for PM2.5. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

Irrelevant on BOTH counts as shown above, whether CO2 or hazardous chemicals from filthy fossil combustion.

see above

Just your normal screech with no evidence. Grin

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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #90 - May 25^th, 2022 at 9:05pm lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:03pm: And you still haven't made the case for CO2 wotdunnit. I did. You merely cried
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #91 - May 25^th, 2022 at 9:22pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:05pm: I did. You merely cried Where petal? Be specific. FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 4:00pm: The actual issue is that the right are literal human garbage LOL!!! Was that your big hit?
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #92 - May 25^th, 2022 at 9:23pm lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:22pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:05pm: I did. You merely cried Where petal? Be specific. Read the thread, you ran from my questions and cried bullshit.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #93 - May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:03pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:36pm:

No they are burning 'dirty coal', and poisoning localities with coal ash.

What exactly don't you understand about NEW cola plants? Roll Eyes

I understand they are a small proportion of India's coal fleet.

Quote:

The NEW ones. Roll Eyes

exceeded by the old ones, same as Oz.

Quote:

Define MOST.

Er... 2/3 of Oz who didn't vote for the coalition.

Quote:

"Climate Change At Bottom Of List Of Worries For German Households, Comprehensive 8-Year Survey Shows"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH6UABh3Xck&t=341s

(in German)

or

https://notrickszone.com/2022/05/21/climate-change-at-bottom-of-list-of-worries-...

Obsolete. Germans are currently concerned with replacing Russian fossils.

Quote:

And you still haven't made the case for CO2 wotdunnit. Grin

I'll leave that up to the climate scientists who claim the AGW theory is correct, and the 2/3 of the Oz pop. who want action on climate change.

Quote:

You haven't even got something for PM2.5. Grin

Now you are just behaving like the tobacco apologists in the 1970's; inhaling nicotine fumes and fossil fumes are both hazardous to health.

Quote:

see above

refuted above.

Quote:

Just your normal screech with no evidence. Grin

So said the tobacco apologists.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #94 - May 25^th, 2022 at 9:53pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

I understand they are a small proportion of India's coal fleet.

Have you any evidence NONE of the old ones have been done?

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

exceeded by the old ones, same as Oz.

Nope. There are no new ones in Oz. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

Er... 2/3 of Oz who didn't vote for the coalition.

Labor lost votes, the Coalition lost votes. Australia doesn't make up MOST of the world's population. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

Obsolete. Germans are currently concerned with replacing Russian fossils.

Nope. Dated 21 May 2022. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

I'll leave that up to the climate scientists who claim the AGW theory is correct, and the 2/3 of the Oz pop. who want action on climate change.

So you only want those who agree with you. Grin

The green vote is probably most of those new voters who don't have STEM subjects either. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

Now you are just behaving like the tobacco apologists in the 1970's; inhaling nicotine fumes and fossil fumes are both hazardous to health.

So you haven't found that elusive paper yet. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

refuted above.

You refuted nothing. Assertions aren't even close to rumour level. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

So said the tobacco apologists.

And still no evidence from you. Thegreatdivide - the evidence free zone. Grin

Edit: PM2.5 has been around since 1997. And still not one recorded death.

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« Last Edit: May 25^th, 2022 at 9:59pm by lee »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #95 - May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:53pm:

Have you any evidence NONE of the old ones have been done?

https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/india-can-save-1-2-bill...

India can save $1.2 billion a year by shutting old coal plants: Study

(Aint google great?) ...but India won't, because it can't afford the increase in electricity prices required to fund the retro fitting.

Quote:

Nope. There are no new ones in Oz. Roll Eyes

Soon would have been, if Scomo had won.

Quote:

Labor lost votes, the Coalition lost votes. Australia doesn't make up MOST of the world's population. Grin

Yet most of the world wants transition to renewables, resisted by the fossil pirates.

Quote:

Nope. Dated 21 May 2022. Roll Eyes

So, obviously renewables have been swamped by immediate concerns relating to Russian fossil supplies.

Unlike Oz.

Quote:

So you only want those who agree with you. Grin

Biden wants 60 senators to agree with him, to stop the slaughter of innocents in the US. Sometimes agreement is a life and death issue, as with AGW (whether toxic or CO2 emissions related)

Quote:

The green vote is probably most of those new voters who don't have STEM subjects either. Wink

Greedy fossil pirates are digging their own grave; the young know the economy is not working for them.

Quote:

So you haven't found that elusive paper yet. Grin

Tobacco is just about ostracized, fossils are next.

Quote:

You refuted nothing. Assertions aren't even close to rumour level. Grin

rumour? when it comes to eliminating tobacco and filthy fossil, rumour is enough, apparently.

Quote:

And still no evidence from you. Thegreatdivide - the evidence free zone. Grin

Edit: PM2.5 has been around since 1997. And still not one recorded death.

Obviously governments have proscribed a profitable industry for ...no good reason....

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #96 - May 26^th, 2022 at 12:18pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

India can save $1.2 billion a year by shutting old coal plants: Study

And nothing to do with retrofitted scrubbers. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Soon would have been, if Scomo had won.

So you admit you were wrong AGAIN. And they would have had scrubbers.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Yet most of the world wants transition to renewables, resisted by the fossil pirates.

You have made this claim multiple times and never produced one study that says so. Why is that? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

So, obviously renewables have been swamped by immediate concerns relating to Russian fossil supplies.

Is that all. Nothing about how they have invested so much in renewables and they signally failed to deliver? Remember that wind drought over UK and Europe? Weather dependent renewables.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Sometimes agreement is a life and death issue, as with AGW (whether toxic or CO2 emissions related)

Biden is already responsible for increasing prices, what more do you want him to do?

And yet you haven't provided any proof.

.thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Greedy fossil pirates are digging their own grave; the young know the economy is not working for them.

Ok. Once we finish with fossil fuels - How do we maintain furnaces for iron and aluminium. They need constant heat. It is very expensive to clean solidified pipes.

So we have no iron and steel, no aluminium but they can all sit on the ground - get paid sit down money and the world will continue. All those fossil fuel products - over 6000 that won't be available for manufacture. And then of course there is the building of semi-conductors - very intensive in energy use. All the remaining industry will go to China. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Tobacco is just about ostracized, fossils are next.

They haven't found ANY evidence of PM2.5 deaths. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

rumour? when it comes to eliminating tobacco and filthy fossil, rumour is enough, apparently.

There you go again conflating two different issues. Tobacco has been FOUND to cause health problems. So that is NOT rumour. However as there is no EVIDENCE of PM2.5 deaths that is rumour. Shocked

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Obviously governments have proscribed a profitable industry for ...no good reason....

Really which industry is so proscribed? Which country has proscribed it? The fossil fuel industry continues. I think the word proscribed does not mean what you think it means.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #97 - May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm

lee wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 12:18pm:

Is that all. Nothing about how they have invested so much in renewables and they signally failed to deliver? Remember that wind drought over UK and Europe? Weather dependent renewables.

The problem in the EU - and even more so in Oz - is the wasted decade from 2010 on. Wasted because deniers like you and fossil profit-extractors have blocked a timely investment in renewables: the Sahara should be powering the EU by now, likewise solar in Oz deserts.

Quote:

Biden is already responsible for increasing prices, what more do you want him to do?

I want that f-twit Manchin to stop blocking Biden's GND.
And as for costs, the currency-issuing government can always subsidize costs.

Quote:

Ok. Once we finish with fossil fuels - How do we maintain furnaces for iron and aluminium. They need constant heat. It is very expensive to clean solidified pipes.

ore refining will be powered by green hydrogen.

Quote:

So we have no iron and steel, no aluminium but they can all sit on the ground - get paid sit down money and the world will continue. All those fossil fuel products - over 6000 that won't be available for manufacture. And then of course there is the building of semi-conductors - very intensive in energy use. All the remaining industry will go to China. Grin

Of dear, not only a denier, but complete lack of vision as well. Let those who know how to decarbonize the economy get on with it.

Quote:

They haven't found ANY evidence of PM2.5 deaths. Wink

You still smoking and coughing? It might not kill you, but it will ruin your health. ditto for fossil filth in congested urban areas.

Quote:

There you go again conflating two different issues. Tobacco has been FOUND to cause health problems. So that is NOT rumour. However as there is no EVIDENCE of PM2.5 deaths that is rumour. Shocked

.... ideological blindness on display: you going to volunteer to live in a fossil-polluted urban environment, when authorities have recognized the health hazards for decades (eg lead poisoning) and demanded vehicle anti-pollution devices.

Quote:

Really which industry is so proscribed?

tobacco and fossil fuels.

Quote:

Which country has proscribed it? The fossil fuel industry continues. I think the word proscribed does not mean what you think it means.

It means they haven't been banned, but they will soon be relegated to the dustbin of history.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #98 - May 26^th, 2022 at 2:33pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

The problem in the EU - and even more so in Oz - is the wasted decade from 2010 on.

Germany is heavily invested in renewables.

They still couldn't handle the wind drought. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

ore refining will be powered by green hydrogen.

Ah your wish list again, Every problem has an engineering solution. Grin

"The technology to convert power to hydrogen and back to power has a round-trip efficiency of 18%-46%, according to data that Flora presented from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and scientific journal Nature Energy."

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlin...

So you would need at least 3 to 6 times the power input just to get the same out.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

Of dear, not only a denier, but complete lack of vision as well. Let those who know how to decarbonize the economy get on with it.

You have come up with absolutely nothing except all problems have an engineering solution. A real numpty. Grin

.thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

You still smoking and coughing?

Nope gave up in 1973.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

It might not kill you, but it will ruin your health. ditto for fossil filth in congested urban areas.

And yet you still can't find that elusive paper to prove your point. Why is that? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

... ideological blindness on display: you going to volunteer to live in a fossil-polluted urban environment, when authorities have recognized the health hazards for decades (eg lead poisoning) and demanded vehicle anti-pollution devices.

Oh dear. Seamlessly moves from PM2.5 to lead. Grin

"EPA’s assessment of the PM2.5 science is a case study in science fraud.

First, the PM epidemiology is not science — it’s just statistics and dishonest statistics at that.

Statistical associations by themselves are not science.

EPA admitted in federal court with me that the PM epidemiology alone is inadequate for determining causality."

"Studies show that smokers who quit by age 40 will have inhaled thousands of times more PM than nonsmokers – yet both groups have the same life expectancy.

PM levels in Chinese and Indian cities can be 100 or more times greater than US outdoor air – but there are no reports of actual deaths from inhaling Chinese or Indian air."

"Coal miners and diesel workers have relatively large exposures to PM – but they have greater life expectancy than workers not occupationally exposed to PM.

And guess what, when PM levels are reduced, deaths don’t go down. "

"There is not a single toxic substance known to science that operates on the principle that a little exposure is worse than a lot. Not a single one.

All the foregoing is indisputable. At least I have no seen anyone dispute it."

https://junkscience.com/2021/11/milloy-to-epa-casac-pm-subpanel-epas-assessment-...

Because obviously you can't research. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

tobacco and fossil fuels.

Rubbish

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

It means they haven't been banned, but they will soon be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Wrong again.

"pro·scribe (prō-skrīb′)
tr.v. pro·scribed, pro·scrib·ing, pro·scribes
1. To prohibit; forbid: foods that are proscribed by religious dietary laws. See Synonyms at forbid.
2. To denounce or condemn: "The small sins of natural pleasure that we see ... mildly proscribed in the confession manuals of the late Middle Ages" (James Turner).
3.
a. To banish or outlaw (a person): "Emperors took it on themselves to proscribe heretics" (Garry Wills).
b. To publish the name of (a person) as outlawed."

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/proscribed

It hasn't been prohibited , banned or outlawed.

So another of your fallacies. Why do you lie so much? Roll Eyes

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #99 - May 26^th, 2022 at 2:35pm

lee wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 2:33pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

It means they haven't been banned, but they will soon be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Wrong again.

"pro·scribe (prō-skrīb′)
tr.v. pro·scribed, pro·scrib·ing, pro·scribes
1. To prohibit; forbid: foods that are proscribed by religious dietary laws. See Synonyms at forbid.
2. To denounce or condemn: "The small sins of natural pleasure that we see ... mildly proscribed in the confession manuals of the late Middle Ages" (James Turner).
3.
a. To banish or outlaw (a person): "Emperors took it on themselves to proscribe heretics" (Garry Wills).
b. To publish the name of (a person) as outlawed."

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/proscribed

It hasn't been prohibited , banned or outlawed.

So another of your fallacies. Why do you lie so much? Roll Eyes

Weird how you didn't answer what he said....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #100 - May 26^th, 2022 at 2:52pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 2:35pm:

Weird how you didn't answer what he said....

Really weird that he said "Obviously governments have proscribed a profitable industry for..."

They haven't been proscribed, anywhere. Note the use of the current tense.

Don't you think that answers the statement? If not why?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #101 - May 26^th, 2022 at 3:45pm

lee wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 2:52pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 2:35pm:

Weird how you didn't answer what he said....

Really weird that he said "Obviously governments have proscribed a profitable industry for..."

They haven't been proscribed, anywhere. Note the use of the current tense.

Don't you think that answers the statement? If not why?

So I stand corrected: I deliberately avoided "banned", thinking proscribed meant 'frowned upon'.

But FTLW is right, you didn't reply to what I said, rather you hide behind a definition of proscribed.

But hey here's another definition (quick google)

" denounce or condemn"...though not banned.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #102 - May 26^th, 2022 at 4:23pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 3:45pm:

So I stand corrected: I deliberately avoided "banned", thinking proscribed meant 'frowned upon'.

Very good

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 3:45pm:

But FTLW is right, you didn't reply to what I said, rather you hide behind a definition of proscribed.

Because you used the word proscribed. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 3:45pm:

But hey here's another definition (quick google)

" denounce or condemn"...though not banned.

Coal plants haven't been condemned either. They are still in operation. No country has denounced them.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #103 - May 26^th, 2022 at 4:30pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

when it comes to eliminating tobacco and filthy fossil, rumour is enough, apparently.

Invisible, odourless trace gas that is an ESSENTIAL plant food is now "filthy fossil".

Since photosynthesis and stomatal behavior are central to plant carbon and water metabolism, growth of plants under elevated CO2 leads to a large variety of secondary effects on plant physiology. The availability of additional photosynthate enables most plants to grow faster under elevated CO2, with dry matter production in FACE experiments being increased on average by 17% for the aboveground, and more than 30% for the belowground, portions of plants (Ainsworth & Long 2005; de Graaff et al. 2006). This increased growth is also reflected in the harvestable yield of crops, with wheat, rice and soybean all showing increases in yield of 12–14% under elevated CO2 in FACE experiments (Ainsworth 2008; Long et al. 2006).
https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/effects-of-rising-atmospheric-concentrations-of-carbon-13254108/

Tewwible. Cry

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #104 - May 26^th, 2022 at 5:19pm

Frank wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 4:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

when it comes to eliminating tobacco and filthy fossil, rumour is enough, apparently.

Invisible, odourless trace gas that is an ESSENTIAL plant food is now "filthy fossil".

Of course not, you haven't been following the debate; many compounds emitted by fossil fuel combustion (hence "filthy fossil") are injurious to human (and enviromental) health.

Quote:

Since photosynthesis and stomatal behavior are central to plant carbon and water metabolism, growth of plants under elevated CO2 leads to a large variety of secondary effects on plant physiology. The availability of additional photosynthate enables most plants to grow faster under elevated CO2, with dry matter production in FACE experiments being increased on average by 17% for the aboveground, and more than 30% for the belowground, portions of plants (Ainsworth & Long 2005; de Graaff et al. 2006). This increased growth is also reflected in the harvestable yield of crops, with wheat, rice and soybean all showing increases in yield of 12–14% under elevated CO2 in FACE experiments (Ainsworth 2008; Long et al. 2006).
https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/effects-of-rising-atmospheric-concentrations-of-carbon-13254108/

Tewwible. Cry

I'll be generous and thank you for the lesson on photo-synthesis, but it's an irrelevant interjection to the post to which you thought you were replying.

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #105 - Jun 10^th, 2022 at 1:15pm
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #106 - Jun 10^th, 2022 at 1:17pm Bobby. wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 1:15pm: https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/108/388/623/original/d7e17f... So what? They kill gays in Saudi, why shoudn't we do it, right?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #107 - Jun 10^th, 2022 at 1:26pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 1:17pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 1:15pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/108/388/623/original/d7e17f...

So what? They kill gays in Saudi, why shoudn't we do it, right?

It shows that whatever we do is only symbolic.
It's a drop in the ocean compared to countries like China.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #108 - Jun 10^th, 2022 at 2:47pm The lefty's like making the most noise - like empty vessels.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #109 - Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:12pm

lee wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 2:47pm:

The lefty's like making the most noise - like empty vessels.

While flat-earth central bankers and their NAIRU neo-liberal market dogmas are silently responsible for the greatest economic catastrophes, without you having a clue....

https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/06/09/inflation-stupidities...

Alan Kohler: The two great stupidities behind our inflation.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #110 - Jun 10^th, 2022 at 6:57pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:12pm: While flat-earth central bankers and their NAIRU neo-liberal market dogmas are silently responsible for the greatest economic catastrophes, without you having a clue.... Never mind. You want to try an unproven hypothesis instead of one that has a few problems.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #111 - Jun 11^th, 2022 at 9:26pm

lee wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 6:57pm:

Never mind. You want to try an unproven hypothesis instead of one that has a few problems. Grin

Only a flat-earth, comfortable conservative could assert we have "a few problems" ..... and should therefore stick with the obsolete flat-earth neoliberal economics as practiced by the "druids" of the reserve bank..and the consequent stupidities correctly identified by Kohler.

...eg prices of fuel and food rising, due to covid blockages and and war? - good, jack up interest rates, that will fix supply problems.....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #112 - Jun 12^th, 2022 at 12:58pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 9:26pm:

Only a flat-earth, comfortable conservative could assert we have "a few problems" ..... and should therefore stick with the obsolete flat-earth neoliberal economics as practiced by the "druids" of the reserve bank..and the consequent stupidities correctly identified by Kohler.

Only a nincompoop would argue that they are more than few. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 9:26pm:

eg prices of fuel and food rising, due to covid blockages and and war? - good, jack up interest rates, that will fix supply problems.....

So you believe in interest rates below 3%? Grin

Never mind the great god Keating who had home loan rates at 17%. Grin

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 57086 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #113 - Jun 12^th, 2022 at 1:39pm Atomic batteries might force Petrol prices wayyyyyyyyyyyy up as the Oil Companies go all out to get what they can before they hit the obsolete pile.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #114 - Jun 12^th, 2022 at 1:41pm lee wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 2:47pm: The lefty's like making the most noise - like empty vessels. The Greens have Albanese over a barrel. The Greens are in charge now.
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 57086 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #115 - Jun 12^th, 2022 at 1:49pm Soon the Cheer Mob will take over through the Greens. I would like to see that. Australia ruled by the Cheer Mob. I wonder how they would go ruling 24 million people from around the world, now that it isn't like it was before 1788? Give the Cheer Mob a 'fair go'. Let's see how they go? ...give em what they want.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #116 - Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 12:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 9:26pm:

Only a flat-earth, comfortable conservative could assert we have "a few problems" ..... and should therefore stick with the obsolete flat-earth neoliberal economics as practiced by the "druids" of the reserve bank..and the consequent stupidities correctly identified by Kohler.

Only a nincompoop would argue that they are more than few. Grin

https://www.visionofhumanity.org/climate-change-induced-drought-destabilising-gl...

"Global Drought Caused by Climate Change Can Lead to Conflict".

"There is mounting evidence that climate change is creating the conditions for instability and poverty, two significant contributors to the outbreak of civil war and violence. (eg, in Syria Yemen and Africa)

and

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202206/1267684.shtml

The three-month-old conflict brings new bloodshed and suffering for those on the ground. For people around the world, the conflict, together with the other crises, is threatening to unleash "an unprecedented wave of hunger and destitution, leaving social and economic chaos in its wake," the UN Chief said at the launch of a second report by the Global Crisis Response Group on Food, Energy and Finance over the Ukraine conflict.

Easy to see who the "nincompook" is...

Quote:

So you believe in interest rates below 3%? Grin

Interest rates should be near zero...as they have been since the GFC....and in Japan since their 90's property crash.

Quote:

Never mind the great god Keating who had
home loan rates at 17%. Grin

Keating was a 'flat-earth' neoliberal who - like you - has no understanding of money creation in the public sector.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #117 - Jun 12^th, 2022 at 3:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

"Global Drought Caused by Climate Change Can Lead to Conflict".

So what is this GLOBAL drought? Any drought can cause conflict. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

The three-month-old conflict brings new bloodshed and suffering for those on the ground. For people around the world, the conflict, together with the other crises, is threatening to unleash "an unprecedented wave of hunger and destitution, leaving social and economic chaos in its wake," the UN Chief said at the launch of a second report by the Global Crisis Response Group on Food, Energy and Finance over the Ukraine conflict.

Nothing to do with drought then. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

Easy to see who the "nincompook" is...

You mean you because you can't spell properly? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

Interest rates should be near zero...as they have been since the GFC....and in Japan since their 90's property crash.

And Japan has been desperately trying to fix that. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

Keating was a 'flat-earth' neoliberal who - like you - has no understanding of money creation in the public sector.

As opposed to you who just have no understanding at all. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #118 - Jun 13^th, 2022 at 9:56am

Schott explained why Australia needed an enormous expansion of the national power grid.

“The way you deal with intermittency is first of all by having a lot of transmission to add renewable capacity, and to use different weather patterns across the network.”

Power generated in different regions and states could be fed to areas where wind and solar was underperforming on a particular day. In other words, we will build far more generation capacity than we need and far more transmission than fossil fuels need just to keep renewables reliable. We will then need to add tens of billions in storage technology for nights and cold winters.

Climate writers regularly repeat another left-wing lie: that Australia needs to phase out reliance on coal and gas exports because fossil fuels will soon be stranded assets as the world moves to 100 per cent renewables. Yet thermal coal and gas prices are at all-time record highs. The two fastest-growing carbon dioxide emitters, China and India, plan to keep lifting coal generation (China by 300 million tonnes a year and India from one billion to 1.5 billion tonnes a year).

Global emissions, despite $US2 trillion spent on renewables, rose 6 per cent last year to 36.3 billion tonnes. Australian emissions actually fell 3.2 per cent, even though culture-warring climate writers, the Greens and teals claim we are falling behind. The public would not know it from following most media but Australia is on track to meet its Paris 2030 emissions reduction targets while most of the big-emitting nations are not.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/left-media-keep-public-in-dark-on-renewables/news-story/9ecd1d1b0208d86d885e46d301203169

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #119 - Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

"Global Drought Caused by Climate Change Can Lead to Conflict".

So what is this GLOBAL drought? Any drought can cause conflict. Roll Eyes

That reply explains a lot ...the 2 sentences are identical in meaning.

Quote:

Nothing to do with drought then. Grin

Drought causes conflict, and conflict leads to price rises for energy and food.

Quote:

You mean you because you can't spell properly? Grin

Running out of debating ability?

Quote:

And Japan has been desperately trying to fix that. Roll Eyes

..by NOT raising interest rates which would make things worse, obviously. Note: Japan's GDP has hardly changed at all, since the 90's property and market crash.

Quote:

As opposed to you who just have no understanding at all. Grin

I'll go with Kohler and Mitchell before your flat-earth neoliberal economics any time.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/180

(Post #184)

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #120 - Jun 13^th, 2022 at 4:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

That reply explains a lot ...the 2 sentences are identical in meaning.

Now I know you can't read properly. Where is this GLOBAL drought? There isn't global drought. There is, was and probably ever will be drought.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

Drought causes conflict, and conflict leads to price rises for energy and food.

A simplistic statement for a simpleton. Drought leads to rising food prices. Conflict is caused by multiple things. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

Running out of debating ability?

You were the one quoting "nincompook". Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

.by NOT raising interest rates which would make things worse, obviously. Note: Japan's GDP has hardly changed at all, since the 90's property and market crash.

And? It is a good thing? A bad thing? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

I'll go with Kohler and Mitchell before your flat-earth neoliberal economics any time.

Never mind. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #121 - Jun 13^th, 2022 at 6:43pm

Greens policies causing power blackouts now:

Queensland, NSW face potential blackouts

| ABC News

4,789 views Jun 13, 2022 Queensland is being warned power load shedding is possible tonight, with further cuts possible in New South Wales tomorrow as industry starts up again after the long weekend.
Subscribe: http://ab.co/1svxLVE Read more here: https://ab.co/3xGetbr
The Australian Energy Market Operator has issued a ‘lack of reserve’ forecast meaning demand is likely to outstrip supply in the two states.
Queenslanders are being urged to conserve electricity or face shedding from 5pm until 11pm. New South Wales from about 8pm.
If demand outstrips what is being generated, load shedding will happen to protect the network.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #122 - Jun 14^th, 2022 at 4:54pm

Bobby. wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 6:43pm:

Greens policies causing power blackouts now:

Queensland, NSW face potential blackouts

| ABC News

4,789 views Jun 13, 2022 Queensland is being warned power load shedding is possible tonight, with further cuts possible in New South Wales tomorrow as industry starts up again after the long weekend.
Subscribe: http://ab.co/1svxLVE Read more here: https://ab.co/3xGetbr
The Australian Energy Market Operator has issued a ‘lack of reserve’ forecast meaning demand is likely to outstrip supply in the two states.
Queenslanders are being urged to conserve electricity or face shedding from 5pm until 11pm. New South Wales from about 8pm.
If demand outstrips what is being generated, load shedding will happen to protect the network.

No; lack of investment in renewables, and storage and transmission, over the last decade of a climate denying Coalition government. The Greens haven't directed govt. policy in that lost decade.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #123 - Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 4:54pm:

No; lack of investment in renewables, and storage and transmission, over the last decade of a climate denying Coalition government. The Greens haven't directed govt. policy in that lost decade.

https://7news.com.au/technology/power-outage/entire-sydney-suburbs-plunged-into-...

Entire Sydney suburbs plunged into darkness

as more power outages loom

Entire suburbs in Sydney were sent into darkness on Monday night, with concerns more power outages could hit areas of both New South Wales and Queensland over the next 24 hours.

Homes in Sydney’s north and the Northern Beaches were hit with power outages on Monday night.

Watch more in the video above

Watch the latest News on Channel 7 or stream for free on 7plus >>

Homes in Beacon Hill, Frenchs Forest, Narraweena, Cromer and Dee Why were all temporarily without power, Ausgrid said.

Queenslanders were warned they were at risk of a significant power disruption between 5.30pm to 8pm on Monday, but blackouts were avoided.

Meanwhile, NSW is on high alert from 7pm on Tuesday due to a predicted supply shortfall.

The power outages come as Federal Energy Minister Chris Bowen warns the system is “under pressure” and said households should ‘brace for a bumpy period ahead’.
Suburbs around Sydney suffered power outages on Monday night, as officials warn more blackouts could be on their way.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #124 - Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:15pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 4:54pm: No; lack of investment in renewables, and storage and transmission, over the last decade of a climate denying Coalition government. The government denied climate? Oh dear. Do you have a link for that?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #125 - Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm

lee wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 4:17pm:

Now I know you can't read properly. Where is this GLOBAL drought? There isn't global drought. There is, was and probably ever will be drought.

Drought can cause conflict; and droughts are increasing in severity around the globe.

(quick google)

"Drought—a year with a below-average water supply—is a natural part of the climate cycle, but as Earth's atmosphere continues to warm due to climate change, droughts are becoming more frequent, severe, and pervasive. The past 20 years have been some of the driest conditions in the American west on record.27 Sept 2021

Ditto for the GLOBE....get it ? oh.. never mind..

Quote:

A simplistic statement for a simpleton. Drought leads to rising food prices. Conflict is caused by multiple things. Grin

Certainly simple: drought MAY cause conflict, and may cause increase in food and energy prices.

Quote:

You were the one quoting "nincompook". Wink

after you used it as an ad hominen.....oh dear...

Quote:

And? It is a good thing? A bad thing? Roll Eyes

Japan's economy would have been plunged into a disastrous depression if the BoJ had not propped up the economy by buying most of the debt issued by the government to save the financial industry (when property and share prices collapsed in 1990; recall Tokyo was said to worth more then the entire US in 1989..)

Quote:

Never mind. Grin

It's a pity covid didn't force the lock-down of the global economy for long enough to destroy your flat-earth neoliberal economic orthodoxy (when public debt would have become unrepayable).

Perhaps climate change may yet do the trick, if climate scientists have erred on the downside of global AGW climate risk.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #126 - Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:30pm

They destroyed Hazelwood power station and
now Victoria could lose power too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazelwood_Power_Station

The Hazelwood Power Station is a decommissioned brown coal-fuelled thermal power station located in the Latrobe Valley of Victoria, Australia. Built between 1964 and 1971, the 1,600-megawatt-capacity power station was made up of eight 200MW units, and supplied up to
25% of Victoria's base load electricity
and more than 5% of Australia's total electricity demand.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #127 - Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:44pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

but as Earth's atmosphere continues to warm due to climate change, droughts are becoming more frequent, severe, and pervasive. The past 20 years have been some of the driest conditions in the American west on record.27 Sept 2021

AH NASA

"The past 20 years have been some of the driest conditions in the American west on record. Right now, the western United States—including the part of California home to Schohr’s ranch—is experiencing extreme or exceptional drought that will likely have long-term impacts on the land and the people who depend on it. "

So something like the 163 year drought? Or not. " 20 years driest" is not the same as 20 years drought. Grin

According to wiki California has had four droughts since 2000. 2006-2010, 2011-2017, 2018 and 2020-2021. California has had 6 year droughts in the past. Apart from the really long ones.

La Nina brings droughts to California. La Nina is not a symptom of climate change but natural variability.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

Certainly simple: drought MAY cause conflict, and may cause increase in food and energy prices.

Yes. But definitely not "WILL". Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

after you used it as an ad hominen.....oh dear...

No dear. The "nincompook" starts with you. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

Japan's economy would have been plunged into a disastrous depression if the BoJ had not propped up the economy by buying most of the debt issued by the government to save the financial industry (when property and share prices collapsed in 1990; recall Tokyo was said to worth more then the entire US in 1989..)

And post the bailing out of the banks? Do the Japanese want to keep it low or are they forced to keep it low? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

Perhaps climate change may yet do the trick, if climate scientists have erred on the downside of global AGW climate risk.

Or perhaps over on the easy coast they can get used to blackouts. The AEMO wants to force diesel and gas fired generators to make power. Even if it costs them more than is economic. Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:59pm by lee »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #128 - Jun 14^th, 2022 at 6:13pm

lee wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:44pm:

And post the bailing out of the banks? Do the Japanese want to keep it low or are they forced to keep it low? Roll Eyes

Well the Japanese govt. has been trying to avoid DEFLATION since the 1990 property/share crash. Hence the low interest rates.

(google)

How did Japan overcome deflation?
In 2001, the Bank of Japan began to target the money supply instead of interest rates, which helped moderate deflation and stimulate economic growth.

Quote:

Or perhaps over on the easy coast they can get used to blackouts. The AEMO wants to force diesel and gas fired generators to make power. Even if it costs them more than is economic. Roll Eyes

The whole Oz gas experience has demonstrated the absolute worst of greedy private multinational/national companies seeking maximum gain in market capitalism.

The ALP stared the goons down a decade ago in WA and forced a gas reservation scheme (15%) on the greedy bastards, now WA gas has barely been affected by the current global crisis in prices.

But in the East the fossil-loving Feds gave the same bastards everything they wanted, so that for a while we confronted the madness of importing Oz gas back from Japan, because local OZ gas in the East was too expensive for Oz consumers.

Just proves essentials like energy should be nationalized. Greed driven markets don't work with essentials, the market should be largely restricted to discretionary goods and services.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #129 - Jun 14^th, 2022 at 6:19pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 6:13pm: The whole Oz gas experience has demonstrated the absolute worst of greedy private multinational/national companies seeking maximum gain in market capitalism. So we shouldn't charge uncontracted gas at spot price? How much of east coast gas is uncontracted.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #130 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 12:53pm

lee wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 6:19pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/128#128 date=1655194388]The whole Oz gas experience has demonstrated the absolute worst of greedy private multinational/national companies seeking maximum gain in market capitalism.

Quote:

So we shouldn't charge uncontracted gas at spot price?

No. As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). So your diversion to "spot prices" is a red herring.

Neoliberal privatized markets are a failure. Oz has the most energy resources in the world (both renewable and fossils), and yet citizens are told to "put on more clothes" to keep warm, while private companies are deliberately staying out of the market until directed by the government...so that they can claim "compensation" from the government.

That's your seek, evil, mainstream market economics with all its survival of the fittest ("maximizing private profit") savagery on full display.

Quote:

How much of east coast gas is uncontracted.

Very little...AND there is no reservation policy (as in WA which consequently is faring much better in the current global energy crisis. duh).

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #131 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 1:13pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 12:53pm:

No. As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). So your diversion to "spot prices" is a red herring.

To do that you would have to nationalise everything. Roll Eyes

Oh yes that's right MMT, the untried, is the answer. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 12:53pm:

Very little...AND there is no reservation policy (as in WA which consequently is faring much better in the current global energy crisis. duh).

Exactly And Labor is doing so well in Queensland. Grin

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #132 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 3:07pm

lee wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 1:13pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 12:53pm:

No. As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). So your diversion to "spot prices" is a red herring.

To do that you would have to nationalise everything. Roll Eyes

Oh yes that's right MMT, the untried, is the answer. Grin

Nonsense. You need to nationalize the things I identified..duh.

Quote:

Exactly And Labor is doing so well in Queensland. Grin

Federal Coalition resisted introduction of the WA reservation scheme when overseas export contracts were signed in the East.
And likely there was (and is) plenty of collusion in the ALP with big gas miners in the Eastern states (who are not so resource rich as WA), to ensure well-paid employment for workers....

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #133 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 3:14pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 3:07pm:

Nonsense. You need to nationalize the things I identified..duh.

You didn't identify you merely made a sweeping statement.thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 12:53pm:

As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy).

So what exactly do you mean by energy?

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 3:07pm:

Federal Coalition resisted introduction of the WA reservation scheme when overseas export contracts were signed in the East.

How did they resist when it is solely a state responsibility? Grin

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #134 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm

lee wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 3:14pm:

You didn't identify you merely made a sweeping statement.[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/130#130 date=1655261595] As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy).

A sweeping statement? I identified 4 (essential) areas of concern; you can have your self-interest-driven "invisible hand" markets for discretionary goods and services.

Quote:

So what exactly do you mean by energy?

Back into your dumb mode: energy (fossil or renewable sourced).

Quote:

How did they resist when it is solely a state responsibility? Grin

Overseas contracts involve the Feds, who discouraged the eastern states from a reservation policy - too "socialist" for Coalition ideologues.

https://www.appea.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/APPEA-submission-Gas-Reserva...

"In the absence of any clearly established need, APPEA recommends the Australian Government
does not seek to impose a prospective national domestic gas reservation scheme"

And the Coalition rolled over...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #135 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

A sweeping statement?

Yes.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

Back into your dumb mode: energy (fossil or renewable sourced).

Thanks for clearing that up. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

Overseas contracts involve the Feds, who discouraged the eastern states from a reservation policy - too "socialist" for Coalition ideologues.

Not all. Stop making sch!t up.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

https://www.appea.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/APPEA-submission-Gas-Reserva...

"In the absence of any clearly established need, APPEA recommends the Australian Government
does not seek to impose a prospective national domestic gas reservation scheme"

So nothing about WA exports then. Grin

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #136 - Jun 16^th, 2022 at 5:31pm lee wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:38pm: So nothing about WA exports then. No, because WA Labor had the brains to introduce reservation policy, unlike the Feds who were willingly screwed by the fossil lobby, as noted in the link.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #137 - Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:23pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 5:31pm: No, because WA Labor had the brains to introduce reservation policy, unlike the Feds who were willingly screwed by the fossil lobby, as noted in the link. So somehow WA managed to evade the feds forcing the other states not to have reserved gas?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #138 - Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:52pm

lee wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:23pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 5:31pm:

No, because WA Labor had the brains to introduce reservation policy, unlike the Feds who were willingly screwed by the fossil lobby, as noted in the link.

So somehow WA managed to evade the feds forcing the other states not to have reserved gas? Grin

Circumstances were different in WA. , and Labor forced the issue in WA.
Development of the Gladstone gas export terminals and contracts happened after WA had set its reserve policy, and the fossil companies won the argument with the Feds, with their greed-based no reservation policy for Gladstone gas exports.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #139 - Jun 16^th, 2022 at 7:58pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:52pm:

Circumstances were different in WA.

okay.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:52pm:

Development of the Gladstone gas export terminals and contracts happened after WA had set its reserve policy, and the fossil companies won the argument with the Feds, with their greed-based no reservation policy for Gladstone gas exports.

And a Labor Government to boot. But it was the feds fault Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #140 - Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:28am

Environmentalists and their allies in big business have argued that batteries solve this problem. Battery technology has come a long way, with “mega-batteries” able to store and release power when the wind doesn’t blow and the sun doesn’t shine. Indeed, South Australia is home to one of the biggest lithium batteries in the world, with installation of more big batteries planned for more states and territories.

Yet to build these mega-batteries we need more mining, which in turn releases more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Batteries for electric cars and renewable energy storage are made out of copper, zinc, aluminium and lithium. According to a report by the ABC, “a wind turbine needs four times more minerals than a coal-fired power station to generate the same amount of electricity”. The irony is that we will need to increase our carbon emissions to reduce them.

And not only does mining produce large amounts of carbon dioxide but mines also can leak toxic materials into waterways. Mines often are opposed by environmental groups for this reason. It can take years for new mines to be approved because of Australia’s high standards of environmental protection regulation.

To complicate things further, the trend in the corporate world is to avoid investment in mining because of environmental, social and governance considerations.

The result is that demand for the minerals that go into batteries is going up while supply is going down, leading to what some analysts have called “greenflation”.
...

The experience of Germany demonstrates the impact that renewables can have on electricity markets. A 2019 report produced by Deloitte on the German electricity market says newer, more modern coal-fired plants are able to meet the “flexibility challenge” posed by renewables, but older plants cannot.

Despite having the highest share of cheap renewable energy from wind and solar, Germany has the highest electricity prices in Europe. Fossil fuels are locked in as backup power, which has led Germany to become dependent on imported gas from Russia. This is despite spending $743bn on its energy transition.

Some countries, such as France, Sweden and Iceland, do get most of their electricity from low-carbon dioxide sources. But these low-CO2 sources are not wind and solar, which make up only 2 per cent and 1 per cent of global total energy production, they are hydropower and nuclear.
Energy Minister Chris Bowen recently described the case for nuclear energy as “a complete joke” and moratoriums on gas exploration and extraction remain in place across the country. West Australian Premier Mark McGowan has announced that his state will shut two coal-fired power plants. In addition to the two plants in WA, the Liddell power plant in NSW is scheduled to close next year and Yallourn power station in Victoria is set to shut in 2028.

When the Hazelwood coal-fired plant in Victoria closed in 2017, the closure resulted in higher energy prices that lasted for years. The Australian Energy Regulator reported that in 2018 the closure of Hazelwood led to average electricity spot prices that were 85 per cent higher than the previous year in Victoria, 63 per cent higher in NSW, 53 per cent in Queensland and 32 per cent higher in SA.
...
From watching the European experience, we know baseload power can come only from coal, gas or nuclear energy. If our leaders do not manage this situation carefully and learn from other nations, Australians may have to prepare for an energy crisis that never ends.
Clare Lehman

We should build more hydro power stations and replace old coal/gas fired stations with modern ones. Also a couple of latest tech small nuclear power stations. Tiny S Korea has 24 (and massive manufacturing sector), Belgium 7, Sweden 6 (again, massive manufacturing sector).

Australia is 26 million people on an amazingly energy and resource rich CONTINENT with sky high energy prices and no real high tech, high skill industry. Exporting Iron ore, coal/gas and education to Asia is not a smart, long-term plan, it is, rather, turning Australia into an Asian dependency.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #141 - Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:35am

Frank wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:28am:

Australia is 26 million people on an amazingly energy and resource rich CONTINENT with sky high energy prices and no real high tech, high skill industry. Exporting Iron ore, coal/gas and education to Asia is not a smart, long-term plan, it is, rather, turning Australia into an Asian dependency.

Agreed. We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #142 - Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:20pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:35am:

We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it

Another one who doesn't understand that renewables are weather dependent.

So where would we make the fortune? Solar panels? No - you need reliable energy supply for semiconductors.

Wind Turbines? No - you need reliable energy supply for steel, copper, aluminium etc.

Lithium batteries? No - you need reliable energy supply again.

Reliable energy that China has in spades.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #143 - Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:28pm

lee wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:35am:

We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it

Another one who doesn't understand that renewables are weather dependent.

So where would we make the fortune? Solar panels? No - you need reliable energy supply for semiconductors.

Wind Turbines? No - you need reliable energy supply for steel, copper, aluminium etc.

Lithium batteries? No - you need reliable energy supply again.

Reliable energy that China has in spades.

You seem mentally ill. Would we use coal in the early stages to make things? Sure. So what?

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Frank

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #144 - Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:51pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

lee wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:35am:

We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it

Another one who doesn't understand that renewables are weather dependent.

So where would we make the fortune? Solar panels? No - you need reliable energy supply for semiconductors.

Wind Turbines? No - you need reliable energy supply for steel, copper, aluminium etc.

Lithium batteries? No - you need reliable energy supply again.

Reliable energy that China has in spades.

You seem mentally ill. Would we use coal in the early stages to make things? Sure. So what?

Billy's talking to you, Yappy mong - and so say all of us:

Geddit?

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #145 - Jun 17^th, 2022 at 1:12pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

Would we use coal in the early stages to make things? Sure. So what?

Seeing as Albo wants to decrease our emissions by 43% in 8 years you tell us.

WA closing Coal by 2030. Just how soon would we run out of the "early stages"? Wink

https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix

Renewables aren't even keeping up with our increased energy use. Roll Eyes

OurWorldinData tells us that the global primary energy consumed in 2019 is provided by oil (33.8%), natural gas (24.7%), coal (27.6%), traditional biomass (7%), hydroelectric (2.7%), nuclear (1.8%), wind (0.9%), modern biofuels (0.7%), and 0.8% solar plus other renewables.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #146 - Jun 17^th, 2022 at 3:45pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

lee wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:35am:

We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it

Another one who doesn't understand that renewables are weather dependent.

So where would we make the fortune? Solar panels? No - you need reliable energy supply for semiconductors.

Wind Turbines? No - you need reliable energy supply for steel, copper, aluminium etc.

Lithium batteries? No - you need reliable energy supply again.

Reliable energy that China has in spades.

You seem mentally ill. Would we use coal in the early stages to make things? Sure. So what?

F*uck off!

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Frank

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #147 - Jun 17^th, 2022 at 4:49pm

lee wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

Would we use coal in the early stages to make things? Sure. So what?

Seeing as Albo wants to decrease our emissions by 43% in 8 years you tell us.

WA closing Coal by 2030. Just how soon would we run out of the "early stages"? Wink

https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix

https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/08/Global-primary-energy-by-source-800x3...
Renewables aren't even keeping up with our increased energy use. Roll Eyes

OurWorldinData tells us that the global primary energy consumed in 2019 is provided by oil (33.8%), natural gas (24.7%), coal (27.6%), traditional biomass (7%), hydroelectric (2.7%), nuclear (1.8%), wind (0.9%), modern biofuels (0.7%), and 0.8% solar plus other renewables.

"Decarbonising the economy" and net zero are deluded fantasies by people who have no idea of how things are made and how the making of things is powered. They are fantasies both nationally and globally.

It would actually be a HUGE step if Africa, India, China were put on high quality coal and gas for their power generation, with some form of carbon capture (not least re-forestation).

But the delivery of electricity would require infrastructure - nonexistent in sub saharan Africa where three quarters of the population has no access to electricity and burn biomass - wood, dung - or cheap coal or oil.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #148 - Jun 18^th, 2022 at 4:04pm

Is Obama all for green energy?

"Former President Barack Obama has ordered three massive propane tanks for his Martha’s Vineyard property as energy prices nationwide continue to surge.

The office of the select board of Edgartown, Massachusetts, told The Daily Caller News Foundation that an application for an “underground propane installment was approved at the 79 Turkeyland Cove Road address,” the location of a property owned by former President Barack Obama. The tanks are to be used for “residential purposes,” the office told TheDCNF, and have a total capacity approved of “2,500 gallons which was broken into two 1,000 gallon tanks and one 500 gallon tank.” "

https://dailycaller.com/2022/06/15/gas-former-president-obama-propane-tank-marth...

And others for those who don't like the Daily Caller. Wink

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #149 - Jun 18^th, 2022 at 10:29pm

lee wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 7:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:52pm:

Circumstances were different in WA.

okay.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:52pm:

Development of the Gladstone gas export terminals and contracts happened after WA had set its reserve policy, and the fossil companies won the argument with the Feds, with their greed-based no reservation policy for Gladstone gas exports.

And a Labor Government to boot. But it was the feds fault Grin

Of course, they gave the go ahead.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #150 - Jun 18^th, 2022 at 10:43pm

Frank wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:28am:

Environmentalists and their allies in big business have argued that batteries solve this problem. Battery technology has come a long way, with “mega-batteries” able to store and release power when the wind doesn’t blow and the sun doesn’t shine. Indeed, South Australia is home to one of the biggest lithium batteries in the world, with installation of more big batteries planned for more states and territories.

Yet to build these mega-batteries we need more mining, which in turn releases more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Batteries for electric cars and renewable energy storage are made out of copper, zinc, aluminium and lithium. According to a report by the ABC, “a wind turbine needs four times more minerals than a coal-fired power station to generate the same amount of electricity”. The irony is that we will need to increase our carbon emissions to reduce them.

And not only does mining produce large amounts of carbon dioxide but mines also can leak toxic materials into waterways. Mines often are opposed by environmental groups for this reason. It can take years for new mines to be approved because of Australia’s high standards of environmental protection regulation.

To complicate things further, the trend in the corporate world is to avoid investment in mining because of environmental, social and governance considerations.

The result is that demand for the minerals that go into batteries is going up while supply is going down, leading to what some analysts have called “greenflation”.
...

The experience of Germany demonstrates the impact that renewables can have on electricity markets. A 2019 report produced by Deloitte on the German electricity market says newer, more modern coal-fired plants are able to meet the “flexibility challenge” posed by renewables, but older plants cannot.

Despite having the highest share of cheap renewable energy from wind and solar, Germany has the highest electricity prices in Europe. Fossil fuels are locked in as backup power, which has led Germany to become dependent on imported gas from Russia. This is despite spending $743bn on its energy transition.

Some countries, such as France, Sweden and Iceland, do get most of their electricity from low-carbon dioxide sources. But these low-CO2 sources are not wind and solar, which make up only 2 per cent and 1 per cent of global total energy production, they are hydropower and nuclear.
Energy Minister Chris Bowen recently described the case for nuclear energy as “a complete joke” and moratoriums on gas exploration and extraction remain in place across the country. West Australian Premier Mark McGowan has announced that his state will shut two coal-fired power plants. In addition to the two plants in WA, the Liddell power plant in NSW is scheduled to close next year and Yallourn power station in Victoria is set to shut in 2028.

When the Hazelwood coal-fired plant in Victoria closed in 2017, the closure resulted in higher energy prices that lasted for years. The Australian Energy Regulator reported that in 2018 the closure of Hazelwood led to average electricity spot prices that were 85 per cent higher than the previous year in Victoria, 63 per cent higher in NSW, 53 per cent in Queensland and 32 per cent higher in SA.
...
From watching the European experience, we know baseload power can come only from coal, gas or nuclear energy. If our leaders do not manage this situation carefully and learn from other nations, Australians may have to prepare for an energy crisis that never ends.
Clare Lehman

We should build more hydro power stations and replace old coal/gas fired stations with modern ones. Also a couple of latest tech small nuclear power stations. Tiny S Korea has 24 (and massive manufacturing sector), Belgium 7, Sweden 6 (again, massive manufacturing sector).

Australia is 26 million people on an amazingly energy and resource rich CONTINENT with sky high energy prices and no real high tech, high skill industry. Exporting Iron ore, coal/gas and education to Asia is not a smart, long-term plan, it is, rather, turning Australia into an Asian dependency.

Coal plants are too inflexible to meet changes in the supply of renewables, and hence grid demand (they have to remain operating continuously)

According to Tim Buckley, the cheapest and fastest form of new energy capacity in Oz, is rooftop solar and upgraded transmission And diversion of currently produced Oz gas from exports as required for backup, until Snowy 2 and other storage comes on-line.

And in a decade Oz can be exporting green steel rather than dirt (using green hydrogen rather than coal as fuel). Massive value-added export potential.

Earliest energy from nuclear would be 3 decades away in Oz.

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« Last Edit: Jun 18^th, 2022 at 10:51pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59523 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #151 - Jun 19^th, 2022 at 12:10pm
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #152 - Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm

Coal plants are too inflexible to meet changes in the supply of renewables, and hence grid demand (they have to remain operating continuously)

According to Tim Buckley, the cheapest and fastest form of new energy capacity in Oz, is rooftop solar and upgraded transmission And diversion of currently produced Oz gas from exports as required for backup, until Snowy 2 and other storage comes on-line.

And in a decade Oz can be exporting green steel rather than dirt (using green hydrogen rather than coal as fuel). Massive value-added export potential.

Earliest energy from nuclear would be 3 decades away in Oz.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #153 - Jun 20^th, 2022 at 2:30pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

Coal plants are too inflexible to meet changes in the supply of renewables, and hence grid demand (they have to remain operating continuously)

Yes. Now explain why they are necessarily a bad thing as opposed to Weather Dependent Renewables. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

According to Tim Buckley, the cheapest and fastest form of new energy capacity in Oz, is rooftop solar and upgraded transmission And diversion of currently produced Oz gas from exports as required for backup, until Snowy 2 and other storage comes on-line.

A subsidy miner who doesn't have any engineering skills. Roll Eyes

.
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

And in a decade Oz can be exporting green steel rather than dirt (using green hydrogen rather than coal as fuel). Massive value-added export potential.

And how do you make "green steel"? "Green Steel" still has carbon, without carbon it is not steel. Through a loss making structure from start to finish. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

Earliest energy from nuclear would be 3 decades away in Oz.

Only because of Green Tape. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #154 - Jun 20^th, 2022 at 3:59pm

lee wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

Coal plants are too inflexible to meet changes in the supply of renewables, and hence grid demand (they have to remain operating continuously)

Yes. Now explain why they are necessarily a bad thing as opposed to Weather Dependent Renewables. Grin

Because AGW is accepted as real.....

Quote:

A subsidy miner who doesn't have any engineering skills.

Btw, " Although the losses of the pumping process make the plant (pumped hydro) a net consumer of energy overall, the system increases revenue by selling more electricity during periods of peak demand, when electricity prices are highest. If the upper lake collects significant rainfall or is fed by a river then the plant may be a net energy producer in the manner of a traditional hydroelectric plant".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity

Quote:

And how do you make "green steel"? "Green Steel" still has carbon, without carbon it is not steel. Through a loss making structure from start to finish. Grin

Back to your dumb mode? You make green steel by burning green hydrogen rather than coking coal. Any 'carbon' additive used to improve the quality of the steel is not an emission.

Quote:

Only because of Green Tape. Grin

"In contrast, the costs of building and operating nuclear in Australia remain prohibitively high. Further, analysis conducted by the nuclear industry itself shows nuclear power stations take an average of 9.4 years to build – compared to 1–3 years for a major wind or solar project.18 Jan 2022".

Ok, ONLY a decade then.....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #155 - Jun 20^th, 2022 at 4:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 3:59pm:

Because AGW is accepted as real.....

Not in the real world. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 3:59pm:

Btw, " Although the losses of the pumping process make the plant (pumped hydro) a net consumer of energy overall, the system increases revenue by selling more electricity during periods of peak demand, when electricity prices are highest. If the upper lake collects significant rainfall or is fed by a river then the plant may be a net energy producer in the manner of a traditional hydroelectric plant".

So it is a net user not a net provider. Wink

The 2nd lake is also used for power so that is not available at the end. (There are 4 lakes.)

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 3:59pm:

You make green steel by burning green hydrogen rather than coking coal. Any 'carbon' additive used to improve the quality of the steel is not an emission.

Any carbon additive added to molten steel will generate CO2. Roll Eyes

And green hydrogen? The stuff that embrittles metals. Leaks because the molecules are so small. Explodes at a wide variety of mixtures. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 3:59pm:

"In contrast, the costs of building and operating nuclear in Australia remain prohibitively high. Further, analysis conducted by the nuclear industry itself shows nuclear power stations take an average of 9.4 years to build – compared to 1–3 years for a major wind or solar project.18 Jan 2022".

Oh the greenie Climate Council. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 3:59pm:

Ok, ONLY a decade then..

So it was another lie. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #156 - Jun 20^th, 2022 at 8:57pm

lee wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 4:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 3:59pm:

Because AGW is accepted as real.....

Not in the real world. Wink

Oh....the "real world' is your evil neoliberal dog eat dog/survival of the fittest, law of the jungle slaughterhouse, we know that much...

Thankfully AGW - real or not - will usher in a new world powered by free sun and wind, to engender universal well-being and prospeity.

Quote:

So it is a net user not a net provider. Wink

Excess ...oh never mind

Quote:

The 2nd lake is also used for power so that is not available at the end. (There are 4 lakes.)

Pumped-hydro schemes only need two lakes. Snowy 2 may need extra lakes because it was not originally designed as storage for renewables.

Quote:

Any carbon additive added to molten steel will generate CO2. Roll Eyes

How?

Quote:

And green hydrogen? The stuff that embrittles metals. Leaks because the molecules are so small. Explodes at a wide variety of mixtures. Grin

Back to you dumb mode. Additives strengthen steel, hydrogen replaces coaking coal.

Quote:

So it was another lie. Grin

Wide variety of estimates on google:

"Construction of a commercial-scale plant would take at least 15 years. If Australia had started work on a nuclear reactor before the pandemic, it would not be in operation until about 2035. The small or “modular” reactors that are held up as the future of the industry won't be affordable until 2050.12 Oct 2021".

So no lie - 3 decades for your modular systems.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #157 - Jun 20^th, 2022 at 9:29pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Thankfully AGW - real or not - will usher in a new world powered by free sun and wind, to engender universal well-being and prospeity.

Jeez you just can't stop bullshitting. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Excess ...oh never mind

A net loss is not excess. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Pumped-hydro schemes only need two lakes. Snowy 2 may need extra lakes because it was not originally designed as storage for renewables.

Snowy 2 is actually designed to provide storage. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

How?

Carbon burns in molten anything over 450 F. As it burns it creates CO2. B asic chemistry. Another one of those things you don't know about. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Back to you dumb mode. Additives strengthen steel, hydrogen replaces coaking coal.

Hydrogen can't add carbon. H2 is not C. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Wide variety of estimates on google:

The guradian? Grin

Now you are getting desperate. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #158 - Jun 21^st, 2022 at 2:23pm

lee wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 9:29pm:

Jeez you just can't stop bullshitting. Grin

So says the mindless 'survival of fittest'/ classical-neoliberal ideologue.

Quote:

A net loss is not excess. Roll Eyes

Dumb mode again, excess is not net loss.

Quote:

Snowy 2 is actually designed to provide storage. Roll Eyes

Didn't I make it clear enough for you?

Snowy was originally designed to produce power, not store it....that's snowy 2's function.

Quote:

Carbon burns in molten anything over 450 F. As it burns it creates CO2. B asic chemistry. Another one of those things you don't know about. Grin

oh dear, dumb mode again. The carbon is deposited in the steel.

Quote:

Hydrogen can't add carbon. H2 is not C. Roll Eyes

Dumb mode; hydrogen replaces coking coal to make steel. Additives to the steel are another matter.

Quote:

The guradian? Grin

Now you are getting desperate. Roll Eyes

Not as desperate as you in the coming years, as the globe moves to renewables.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #159 - Jun 21^st, 2022 at 4:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 21^st, 2022 at 2:23pm:

So says the mindless 'survival of fittest'/ classical-neoliberal ideologue.

Oh good comeback. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 21^st, 2022 at 2:23pm:

Dumb mode again, excess is not net loss.

An excess in a point in time is not the same as an excess all the time. So you wish for the excess to occur when you need it, which isn't necessarily so.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 21^st, 2022 at 2:23pm:

Didn't I make it clear enough for you?

The original Snowy was not designed to be. Snowy 2 is. And Snowy2 is not going to work as planned. You can't fit a larger lake into a smaller lake. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 21^st, 2022 at 2:23pm:

oh dear, dumb mode again. The carbon is deposited in the steel.

Some is. Most is not. You really are dumb.

.thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 21^st, 2022 at 2:23pm:

Dumb mode; hydrogen replaces coking coal to make steel. Additives to the steel are another matter.

So hydrogen which has round trip conversion of between 18% - 42% is going to make steel. 58% - 82% losses and its going to be economic? Grin

And that's beside the losses due to leakage, Embrittlement etc

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 21^st, 2022 at 2:23pm:

Not as desperate as you in the coming years, as the globe moves to renewables. .

So you can't quote anyone else other than the Climate Council and the Garudian and I am supposed to be impressed? Grin

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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #160 - Jun 21^st, 2022 at 4:41pm lee wrote on Jun 21^st, 2022 at 4:38pm: So you can't quote anyone else other than the Climate Council and the Garudian and I am supposed to be impressed? smacking love the Garudian
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #161 - Jun 21^st, 2022 at 6:32pm I see Albo is offering subsidies to fossil fuel generation, so they don't have to run at a loss.
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59523 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #162 - Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 10:38am Petrol price rises driving surge in theft of car number plates, RAA believes
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #163 - Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm

lee wrote on Jun 21^st, 2022 at 4:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 21^st, 2022 at 2:23pm:

So says the mindless 'survival of fittest'/ classical-neoliberal ideologue.

Oh good comeback. Grin

To advance toward collective well-being and security, one must understand political and economic realities. 'Every man for himself'/ dog eat dog/ survival of the fittest' neoliberal markets will only lead to extinction.

Quote:

An excess in a point in time is not the same as an excess all the time.

Correct , (though you don't need excess all the time) that's why you need to store the excess, so that you can have sufficient supply all the time.

Quote:

So you wish for the excess to occur when you need it, which isn't necessarily so.

See above: the wind will always be blowing somewhere in Oz when the sun isn't shining.

Quote:

The original Snowy was not designed to be.

That's what I said.

Quote:

Snowy 2 is. And Snowy2 is not going to work as planned. You can't fit a larger lake into a smaller lake. Roll Eyes

Well then, Snowy 2 will need to be redesigned. Perhaps you can supply some plans to the engineers....

Quote:

Some is. Most is not. You really are dumb.

(google)

"Can steel be made without carbon?
Swedish green steel venture HYBRIT said that it had made the world's first customer delivery of steel produced without using coal as it looks to revolutionize an industry that accounts for around 8% of global greenhouse gas emissions".

Quote:

So hydrogen which has round trip conversion of between 18% - 42% is going to make steel. 58% - 82% losses and its going to be economic? Grin

Yes; sun and wind - to make hydrogen via electrolysis - are free.

Quote:

And that's beside the losses due to leakage, Embrittlement etc

"losses" are irrelevant; em- brittlement is solved with additives.

Quote:

So you can't quote anyone else other than the Climate Council and the Garudian and I am supposed to be impressed? Grin

You are supposed to be impressed by the fact that virtually every nation is committed to turning up to the COP meetings.

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« Last Edit: Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:34pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #164 - Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 4:21pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

To advance toward collective well-being and security, one must understand political and economic realities. 'Every man for himself'/ dog eat dog/ survival of the fittest' neoliberal markets will only lead to extinction.

As will mass hysteria. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

Correct , (though you don't need excess all the time) that's why you need to store the excess, so that you can have sufficient supply all the time.

You need the excess at a time you can use it. You can't store more than is available. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

See above: the wind will always be blowing somewhere in Oz when the sun isn't shining.

Will this wind be enough to provide an excess? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

Well then, Snowy 2 will need to be redesigned.

Ah back to MMT and free money. :: Grin

.
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

(google)

"Can steel be made without carbon?
Swedish green steel venture HYBRIT said that it had made the world's first customer delivery of steel produced without using coal as it looks to revolutionize an industry that accounts for around 8% of global greenhouse gas emissions".

Did you actually comprehend that? Roll Eyes

So they didn't use coal; what carbon did they use? How much CO2 was generated?

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

Yes; sun and wind - to make hydrogen via electrolysis - are free.

and the panels and wind turbines aren't. Roll Eyes

how much over capacity will be needed?

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

"losses" are irrelevant; em- brittlement is solved with additives.

Which ones? At what cost? Grin

.thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

You are supposed to be impressed by the fact that virtually every nation is committed to turning up to the COP meetings.

Really? I would be impressed by outcomes. Only 37 countries have met their NDC's. . Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #165 - Jun 23^rd, 2022 at 4:04pm

And in other news -

Quote:

Electric cars could increase demand on the power grid during the evening peak by at least 30 per cent unless households adopt smart charging, a new trial shows.
Key points:

A trial of 150 electric car users revealed their potential impact on the power grid's evening peak
Demand could rise between 30 and 100 per cent
Work underway to understand what upgrades could be needed to the electricity network

Origin Energy has teamed up with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) to understand ways to change the behaviour of electric car owners before their mass adoption in Australia.

With the threat of blackouts a reality amid higher prices and demand, Origin's general manager of e-mobility Chau Le said the network would struggle once EVs became more popular.

"At the moment our electricity grid is not coping at all," she said.
"If we were to add another 30 per cent of peak load to the grid during those periods of high prices and constraints on the network, this would require significant investment to increase capacity."

To manage the looming threat, Origin and ARENA have been trialling "smart charging", with results published yesterday.

Smart chargers, costing between $2,000 and $3,000, were installed in homes of 150 EV users and baseline data was captured.

The chargers allow people to set their charging times, for example when there is more low-cost renewable energy being produced or to support the grid at times of peak demand.

It found that without intervention, 30 per cent of charging was done in the evening peak, between 3pm and 9pm.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/power-prices-grid-electric-car-increase-d...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #166 - Jun 23^rd, 2022 at 4:27pm

lee wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2022 at 4:04pm:

And in other news -

Quote:

Electric cars could increase demand on the power grid during the evening peak by at least 30 per cent unless households adopt smart charging, a new trial shows.
Key points:

A trial of 150 electric car users revealed their potential impact on the power grid's evening peak
Demand could rise between 30 and 100 per cent
Work underway to understand what upgrades could be needed to the electricity network

Origin Energy has teamed up with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) to understand ways to change the behaviour of electric car owners before their mass adoption in Australia.

With the threat of blackouts a reality amid higher prices and demand, Origin's general manager of e-mobility Chau Le said the network would struggle once EVs became more popular.

"At the moment our electricity grid is not coping at all," she said.
"If we were to add another 30 per cent of peak load to the grid during those periods of high prices and constraints on the network, this would require significant investment to increase capacity."

To manage the looming threat, Origin and ARENA have been trialling "smart charging", with results published yesterday.

Smart chargers, costing between $2,000 and $3,000, were installed in homes of 150 EV users and baseline data was captured.

The chargers allow people to set their charging times, for example when there is more low-cost renewable energy being produced or to support the grid at times of peak demand.

It found that without intervention, 30 per cent of charging was done in the evening peak, between 3pm and 9pm.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/power-prices-grid-electric-car-increase-d...

The Gretas, Adams, Flannerys and Teals didn't see that coming. Big surprise. Shocked

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #167 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:18pm

Frank wrote on Jun 19^th, 2022 at 12:10pm:

https://mobile.twitter.com/suzseddon/status/1538211960738787335

In response to our recent power crisis, environmentalists at home have called for a blockage on gas exports, a gas export tax and increased government subsidies for battery storage technologies. Yet these are simply Band-Aid solutions. To ensure energy security, Australia needs to extract more gas, invest in and maintain our existing coal-fired power plants, and think seriously about a long-term transition to nuclear energy. While nuclear energy is often dismissed as being too costly, the question is: compared with what? The battery storage required to power the whole of Australia has been estimated to cost $6.5 trillion. If this is a cost-effective solution, then God help us all.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/energy-crisis-wont-be-solved-bywind-and-sun/news-story/945ffa07c966f84ba4fe79c89852c06f

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #168 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:21pm

Frank wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:18pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 19^th, 2022 at 12:10pm:

https://mobile.twitter.com/suzseddon/status/1538211960738787335

In response to our recent power crisis, environmentalists at home have called for a blockage on gas exports, a gas export tax and increased government subsidies for battery storage technologies. Yet these are simply Band-Aid solutions. To ensure energy security, Australia needs to extract more gas, invest in and maintain our existing coal-fired power plants, and think seriously about a long-term transition to nuclear energy. While nuclear energy is often dismissed as being too costly, the question is: compared with what? The battery storage required to power the whole of Australia has been estimated to cost $6.5 trillion. If this is a cost-effective solution, then God help us all.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/energy-crisis-wont-be-solved-bywind-and-sun/news-story/945ffa07c966f84ba4fe79c89852c06f

I understand you are stupid....

Why would we need batteries to power the entire country? More and more people are buying a battery for their own home, which can be used to power their house.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #169 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:45pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:21pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:18pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 19^th, 2022 at 12:10pm:

https://mobile.twitter.com/suzseddon/status/1538211960738787335

In response to our recent power crisis, environmentalists at home have called for a blockage on gas exports, a gas export tax and increased government subsidies for battery storage technologies. Yet these are simply Band-Aid solutions. To ensure energy security, Australia needs to extract more gas, invest in and maintain our existing coal-fired power plants, and think seriously about a long-term transition to nuclear energy. While nuclear energy is often dismissed as being too costly, the question is: compared with what? The battery storage required to power the whole of Australia has been estimated to cost $6.5 trillion. If this is a cost-effective solution, then God help us all.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/energy-crisis-wont-be-solved-bywind-and-sun/news-story/945ffa07c966f84ba4fe79c89852c06f

Why would we need batteries to power the entire country? More and more people are buying a battery for their own home, which can be used to power their house.

Because wind and solar are intermittent, not continuous nor responsive to fluctuating demand, ignorant, mouthy git.

You have something to say about all the things you don't understand - hence your daily post count. You inject yourself into every thread without displaying the slightest evidence of understanding or thought, regardless of the topic. You always talk a lot but invariably say fck all.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #170 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:47pm

Frank wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:45pm:

Because wind and solar are intermittent, not continuous nor responsive to fluctuating demand, ignorant, mouthy git.

You have something to say about all the things you don't understand - hence your daily post count. You inject yourself into every thread without displaying the slightest evidence of understanding or thought, regardless of the topic. You always talk a lot but invariably say fck all.

Intermittent does not mean they fail to work for the entire country at once... Solar isn't that intermittent. It's pretty easy to predict when it's there.

As usual, you are useless and have nothing to offer.....

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #171 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:02pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:47pm: It's pretty easy to predict when it's there. How far in advance is this prediction service?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #172 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm

lee wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 4:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

To advance toward collective well-being and security, one must understand political and economic realities. 'Every man for himself'/ dog eat dog/ survival of the fittest' neoliberal markets will only lead to extinction.

As will mass hysteria. Wink

A green economy won't lead to extinction.

Quote:

You need the excess at a time you can use it. You can't store more than is available. Roll Eyes

No, you need the storage at the time you can use it. And sun is always shining on half the globe's surface (apart from cloud). Actually space-based solar collection is another area of research.

Quote:

Will this wind be enough to provide an excess? Roll Eyes

if sufficient global capacity is interconnected, yes.

Quote:

Ah back to MMT and free money. :: Grin

Most likely. It's becoming increasingly evident the market can't engender a smooth and timely transition to renewables.

Quote:

Did you actually comprehend that? Roll Eyes

So they didn't use coal; what carbon did they use? How much CO2 was generated?

I'll let you find the answers to those questions; fact is the steel was produced using green hydrogen (with no emissions), to replace coking coal.

Quote:

and the panels and wind turbines aren't. Roll Eyes

how much over capacity will be needed?

Get back to me in decade's time, the answer will be clearer then. (interestingly nuclear is still providing 9% of US energy ( China will be more than that); not insignificant.

Quote:

Which ones? At what cost? Grin

Opportunity cost is irrelevent, to achieve energy from free sun and wind.

Quote:

Really? I would be impressed by outcomes. Only 37 countries have met their NDC's. . Roll Eyes

Of course most governments are still beholden to fossil companies....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #173 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:27pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

A green economy won't lead to extinction.

It will lead to loss of GDP. Loss of jobs. Possible loss of skill sets.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

No, you need the storage at the time you can use it.

And if you have used it before recharge can occur? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

And sun is always shining on half the globe's surface (apart from cloud).

Now all you have to do is predict clouds. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

Actually space-based solar collection is another area of research.

Yeah A long cable to earth. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

if sufficient global capacity is interconnected, yes.

Ah global capacity. Nothing like losses to kill that idea either. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

'll let you find the answers to those questions; fact is the steel was produced using green hydrogen (with no emissions), to replace coking coal.

So you have taken it at face value.

"More importantly, solid coal in the main body of the furnace cannot be replaced with hydrogen. Some alternatives have been developed, involving biomass – a fuel developed from living organisms – blended with coal.

But sourcing biomass sustainably and at scale would be a challenge. And this process would still likely create some fossil-fuel derived emissions. So to ensure the process is “green”, these emissions would have to be captured and stored – a technology which is currently expensive and unproven at scale."

https://theconversation.com/green-steel-is-hailed-as-the-next-big-thing-in-austr...

So CCS. Another failed attempt. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

Get back to me in decade's time, the answer will be clearer then.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

Opportunity cost is irrelevent, to achieve energy from free sun and wind.

Jeez you are funny. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

Of course most governments are still beholden to fossil companies....

Most countries don't believe in green magic. Wink

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #174 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:28pm

lee wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:27pm:

It will lead to loss of GDP. Loss of jobs. Possible loss of skill sets.

Most countries don't believe in green magic. Wink

I didn't read most of this ignorant sh

i

t. It won't lead to loss of GDP. Cars lead to loss of skill sets (blacksmithing). We didn't need them any more. Green energy could make this country a fortune and create new, sustainable jobs

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #175 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:46pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:28pm:

I didn't read most of this ignorant shi
t.

Because of your ignorance. Grin

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:28pm:

It won't lead to loss of GDP.

So now you are a world class economist.

"Degrowth: why some economists think abandoning growth is the only way to save the planet – podcast "

https://theconversation.com/degrowth-why-some-economists-think-abandoning-growth...

Does Degrowth sound like increasing GDP

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:28pm:

Green energy could make this country a fortune and create new, sustainable jobs

Ah. Could not will. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #176 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm

lee wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:27pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

A green economy won't lead to extinction.

It will lead to loss of GDP. Loss of jobs. Possible loss of skill sets.

An economy powered by sunshine and wind (and nuclear if necessary)? Actually, progressive economists prefer well-being indices , not GDP:

https://hbr.org/2019/10/gdp-is-not-a-measure-of-human-well-being#:~:text=Economi...

GDP Is Not a Measure of Human Well-Being
by Amit Kapoor and Bibek Debroy
October 04, 2019

Quote:

And if you have used it before recharge can occur? Roll Eyes

impossible , sun and wind are always happening somewhere on the globe.

Quote:

Now all you have to do is predict clouds. Grin

over half the globe's surface?

Quote:

Yeah A long cable to earth. Wink

Dumb mode again; reflected light ,... oh never mind

"While space-based solar power is an innovative concept, we are not able to fully launch a system into space yet. Launching a space-based solar system is very expensive. In fact, the cost is estimated to be about 100 times too high to compete with current utility costs.23 Mar 2022"

So its a market problem; let's nationalize the thing and send the bill to the World Bank...

Quote:

Ah global capacity. Nothing like losses to kill that idea either. Grin

Sun and wind potential is many times global requirements.
Quote:

So you have taken it at face value.

"More importantly, solid coal in the main body of the furnace cannot be replaced with hydrogen. Some alternatives have been developed, involving biomass – a fuel developed from living organisms – blended with coal.

But sourcing biomass sustainably and at scale would be a challenge. And this process would still likely create some fossil-fuel derived emissions. So to ensure the process is “green”, these emissions would have to be captured and stored – a technology which is currently expensive and unproven at scale."

https://theconversation.com/green-steel-is-hailed-as-the-next-big-thing-in-austr...

(quick google)

"The way in which hydrogen can replace coal is well understood in principle, and the first pilot plants currently being set up will make it possible to further refine the processes. At current price levels, replacing coal with hydrogen would drive up the price of a ton of steel by about one third.

Quote:

So CCS. Another failed attempt. Grin

Obviously green steel is closer to fruition than CCS

Quote:

Jeez you are funny. Grin

opportunity cost...oh, never mind..

Quote:

Most countries don't believe in green magic. Wink

But they will, when they HAVE to (as the effects of AGW become more severe).

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« Last Edit: Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:09pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #177 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 6:06pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

impossible , sun and wind are always happening somewhere on the globe.

Magical thinking again. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

over half the globe's surface?

Over any amount of surface. Predictions. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

Dumb mode again; reflected light ,... oh never mind

Reflected light? You mean like sunlight only better? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

So its a market problem; let's nationalize the thing and send the bill to the World Bank.

Nope. but keep trying. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

Sun and wind potential is many times global requirements.

And the losses are far more than your fanciful exhortations. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

The way in which hydrogen can replace coal is well understood in principle, and the first pilot plants currently being set up will make it possible to further refine the processes. At current price levels, replacing coal with hydrogen would drive up the price of a ton of steel by about one third.

Nothing there about the carbon which is needed for steel. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

Obviously green steel is closer to fruition than CCS

Green steel relies on carbon. Therefore you will need industrial scale CCS. Something that hasn't been achieved.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

opportunity cost

Yeah. Failed again. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

But they will, when they HAVE to (as the effects of AGW become more severe).

So tell us more of this Catastrophic AGW. Wink

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #178 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm

lee wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 6:06pm:

Reflected light? You mean like sunlight only better? Grin

there are no clouds in space.

Quote:

Nope. but keep trying. Roll Eyes

You mean nationalization is impossible? Plenty of people are clamoring for it, given the energy market's performance in Oz recently....

Quote:

And the losses are far more than your fanciful exhortations. Roll Eyes

btw, Indonesia is competing with the Pilbara to export solar energy to Singapore:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/new-giga-scale-contender-emerges-in-race-to-export-s...

New giga-scale contender emerges in race to export solar to Singapore

Quote:

Nothing there about the carbon which is needed for steel. Roll Eyes

"The goal is to deliver fossil-free steel to the market and demonstrate the technology on an industrial scale as early as 2026," it said in a statement".

Quote:

Green steel relies on carbon. Therefore you will need industrial scale CCS. Something that hasn't been achieved.

Er... plenty of CO2 in the atmosphere, from which carbon can be extracted.

Quote:

Yeah. Failed again. Grin

You didn't say why; if the resources exist, it can be done....for free (apart from 'opportunity costs'.....

Quote:

So tell us more of this Catastrophic AGW. Wink

Don't you watch TV? Practically everyone these days is concluding a statement with -...(this negative phenomenom) "is due to climate change".

...AGW or not....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #179 - Jun 25^th, 2022 at 4:33pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

there are no clouds in space.

No they are in the earth's atmosphere where you want to shone the light. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

You mean nationalization is impossible? Plenty of people are clamoring for it, given the energy market's performance in Oz recently....

Define "plenty". Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

btw, Indonesia is competing with the Pilbara to export solar energy to Singapore:

Much closer. Less losses. Maybe feasible.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

"The goal is to deliver fossil-free steel to the market and demonstrate the technology on an industrial scale as early as 2026," it said in a statement".

So nothing there about the carbon source and CO2 emissions. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

Er... plenty of CO2 in the atmosphere, from which carbon can be extracted.

Plenty? 440 parts per million is plenty? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

You didn't say why; if the resources exist, it can be done....for free (apart from 'opportunity costs'.....

It may be done it may not be done. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

Practically everyone these days is concluding a statement with -...(this negative phenomenom) "is due to climate change".

yes. So many people with no STEM subjects. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #180 - Jun 25^th, 2022 at 5:14pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

Don't you watch TV? Practically everyone these days is concluding a statement with -...(this negative phenomenom) "is due to climate change".

...AGW or not....

Oh, if they say it on telly then it's true. No. They are genuflecting. A few hundred years ago most of them would have said it's the devil's work or God's punishment for our sins ( some still say that).

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #181 - Jul 5^th, 2022 at 12:14am

lee wrote on Jun 25^th, 2022 at 4:33pm:

No they are in the earth's atmosphere where you want to shone the light. Roll Eyes

A system designed to reflect light to the 'dark side' of the earth...ok still theoretical. Where I live the night sky is more often cloudless than in day time.

Quote:

Define "plenty". Grin

Well... govt, with the full backing of business and electricity consumers. ..

Quote:

Much closer. Less losses. Maybe feasible.

I presume the Pilbara mob have costed the losses.

Quote:

So nothing there about the carbon source and CO2 emissions. Roll Eyes

They said running by 2026; we will have to wait to confirm. Even so we need to roll-out present green technologies ASAP to allow rapid closure of fossil plants.

Quote:

Plenty? 440 parts per million is plenty? Grin

I assume plenty, to carbonize steel.

Quote:

It may be done it may not be done. Roll Eyes

I'm guessing it will be done IF climate continues to deteriorate - as most everyone (except you) is claiming.

Quote:

yes. So many people with no STEM subjects. Grin

I feel your pain...most don't understand money is created ex nihilo, either. But they will when central bankers tell us (if AGW is real) we must monopolize available resources to save the planet...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #182 - Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:23pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 12:14am:

Where I live the night sky is more often cloudless than in day time.

More often? As in the skies are always cloudy in daylight? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 12:14am:

Well... govt, with the full backing of business and electricity consumers. ..

Ah nirvana. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 12:14am:

I presume the Pilbara mob have costed the losses.

You presume? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 12:14am:

Even so we need to roll-out present green technologies ASAP to allow rapid closure of fossil plants.

Not at all. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 12:14am:

I assume plenty, to carbonize steel.

Oh dear. Such a lack of any subjects.

"Carbon steel is a steel with carbon content from about 0.05 up to 2.1 percent by weight."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

400ppm of CO2 would give (multiplying by 3/11) 109 parts per million of Carbon.

1 Cu Cm of air weighs about 1.29Kg at 15C. Carbon is about 0.14grams in air.

1 Cu cm of carbon steel is 0.01kg

2.1% of 0.01kg or 10 grams is 0.21 grams of carbon per cu cm.

Nope not enough CO2 in air to make steel. And it would kill everything if you sequestered the lot. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 12:14am:

I'm guessing it will be done IF climate continues to deteriorate - as most everyone (except you) is claiming.

What has it deteriorated from? The LIA? The Holocene Optimum?

Who is this most everyone? The IPCC that says both RCP8.5 is implausible and that it is also business-as-usual? They can't even get tghe science straight., Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 12:14am:

But they will when central bankers tell us (if AGW is real) we must monopolize available resources to save the planet...

And what will they tell Central bankers when it is benign? Grin

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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #183 - Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:28pm lee wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:23pm: snip the crying Wait, that's it?
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #184 - Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:32pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:28pm: lee wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:23pm: snip the crying Wait, that's it? Is that the best you can do? Show us your Science bits and refute instead of promulgating lies.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #185 - Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:32pm

lee wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:32pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:28pm:

lee wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:23pm:

*snip the crying*

Wait, that's it?

Is that the best you can do? Show us your Science bits and refute instead of promulgating lies. Grin

I am well aware I've buried all the right wing bullshit here 10 times over and you won't stop crying

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #186 - Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:34pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:32pm: I am well aware I've buried all the right wing bullshit here 10 times over and you won't stop crying Oh dear. Delusions of Adequacy again.
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #187 - Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:39pm lee wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:34pm: Oh dear. Delusions of Adequacy again. Cry more, old man. LOL!!!
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #188 - Jul 7^th, 2022 at 4:00pm

lee wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:23pm:

More often? As in the skies are always cloudy in daylight? Grin

No , as in the balance of clear versus cloudy...

Quote:

Ah nirvana. Grin

Certainly Oz ought to be building solar/wind ASAP and exporting green hydrogen to Japan etc

Quote:

You presume? Grin

Yes, because they want to make a profit!

btw, if I was in charge of the central bank, I would buy the entire energy sector, and then profit doesn't matter in the transition to renewables, rather resource availability matters.

Quote:

Not at all. Wink

So you keep saying, but the world is leaving you behind now.

Quote:

Oh dear. Such a lack of any subjects.

"Carbon steel is a steel with carbon content from about 0.05 up to 2.1 percent by weight."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

400ppm of CO2 would give (multiplying by 3/11) 109 parts per million of Carbon.

1 Cu Cm of air weighs about 1.29Kg at 15C. Carbon is about 0.14grams in air.

1 Cu cm of carbon steel is 0.01kg

2.1% of 0.01kg or 10 grams is 0.21 grams of carbon per cu cm.

Nope not enough CO2 in air to make steel. And it would kill everything if you sequestered the lot. Wink

I think you omitted the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere; 400 ppm, but how many trillion trillion 'parts' in the atmosphere?

Quote:

What has it deteriorated from? The LIA? The Holocene Optimum?

Ask the insurance companies. They are wetting their pants at present...as the public sector might have to offer insurance...

Quote:

Who is this most everyone? The IPCC that says both RCP8.5 is implausible and that it is also business-as-usual? They can't even get tghe science straight., Grin

Have you identified an error in academia? So who is correct?

Quote:

And what will they tell Central bankers when it is benign? Grin

Still, 'mostly' free electricity is attractive, so why not close as much fossil as possible.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #189 - Jul 7^th, 2022 at 4:36pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 4:00pm:

Quote:
Oh dear. Such a lack of any subjects.

"Carbon steel is a steel with carbon content from about 0.05 up to 2.1 percent by weight."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

400ppm of CO2 would give (multiplying by 3/11) 109 parts per million of Carbon.

1 Cu Cm of air weighs about 1.29Kg at 15C. Carbon is about 0.14grams in air.

1 Cu cm of carbon steel is 0.01kg

2.1% of 0.01kg or 10 grams is 0.21 grams of carbon per cu cm.

Nope not enough CO2 in air to make steel. And it would kill everything if you sequestered the lot. Wink

I think you omitted the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere; 400 ppm, but how many trillion trillion 'parts' in the atmosphere?

Really dumb.

As above -

"400ppm of CO2 would give (multiplying by 3/11) 109 parts per million of Carbon."

The molecular weight of Carbon Dioxide is about 44grams/mol. Carbon (c) being 12, O2 being 16x2. So 32 and 12 =44. Therefore Carbon (C) = 12/44 or 3/11. when 400ppm is multiplied by 3/11 you get 109 parts per million.

It doesn't matter how many trillion parts it still falls back to 400ppm. What you have to do is calculate how much CO2 in a cubic cm, metre or whatever. Which I did.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 4:00pm:

Ask the insurance companies. They are wetting their pants at present...as the public sector might have to offer insurance..

Why do they do science or statistics? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 4:00pm:

Have you identified an error in academia? So who is correct?

Seeing as the IPCC doesn't do science they get their results from academia. You just showed another thing you are lacking. A regular lackwit. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 4:00pm:

Still, 'mostly' free electricity is attractive, so why not close as much fossil as possible.

So the banks will do it for free. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #190 - Jul 7^th, 2022 at 5:17pm

Frank wrote on Jun 25^th, 2022 at 5:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

Don't you watch TV? Practically everyone these days is concluding a statement with -...(this negative phenomenom) "is due to climate change".

...AGW or not....

Oh, if they say it on telly then it's true. No. They are genuflecting. A few hundred years ago most of them would have said it's the devil's work or God's punishment for our sins ( some still say that).

No, they are not genuflecting, they are listening to the science, irrespective of what AGW deniers are saying.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #191 - Jul 7^th, 2022 at 5:30pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 5:17pm: No, they are not genuflecting, they are listening to the science, irrespective of what AGW deniers are saying. The "science" that says RCP8.5 is implausible or the "science" that says RCP8.5 is business-as-usual?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #192 - Jul 7^th, 2022 at 6:58pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 5:17pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 25^th, 2022 at 5:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

Don't you watch TV? Practically everyone these days is concluding a statement with -...(this negative phenomenom) "is due to climate change".

...AGW or not....

Oh, if they say it on telly then it's true. No. They are genuflecting. A few hundred years ago most of them would have said it's the devil's work or God's punishment for our sins ( some still say that).

No, they are not genuflecting, they are listening to the science, irrespective of what AGW deniers are saying.

You DO realise that AGW is statistics.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #193 - Jul 7^th, 2022 at 8:05pm

lee wrote on Jul 5^th, 2022 at 1:23pm:

"Carbon steel is a steel with carbon content from about 0.05 up to 2.1 percent by weight."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

400ppm of CO2 would give (multiplying by 3/11) 109 parts per million of Carbon.

1 Cu Cm of air weighs about 1.29Kg at 15C. Carbon is about 0.14grams in air.

1 Cu cm of carbon steel is 0.01kg

2.1% of 0.01kg or 10 grams is 0.21 grams of carbon per cu cm.

Nope.

"1 Cu Cm of air weighs about 1.29Kg at 15C."
The density of air is 1.225 kg/m³.

"1 Cu cm of carbon steel is 0.01kg."
The density of steel is 7.85 g/cm³

"Carbon is about 0.14 grams in air."
I don't even know what this means?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #194 - Jul 7^th, 2022 at 8:59pm

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 8:05pm:

lee wrote on Jul 5th, 2022 at 11:23am:
"Carbon steel is a steel with carbon content from about 0.05 up to 2.1 percent by weight."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

400ppm of CO2 would give (multiplying by 3/11) 109 parts per million of Carbon.

1 Cu Cm of air weighs about 1.29Kg at 15C. Carbon is about 0.14grams in air.

1 Cu cm of carbon steel is 0.01kg

2.1% of 0.01kg or 10 grams is 0.21 grams of carbon per cu cm.

Nope.

"1 Cu Cm of air weighs about 1.29Kg at 15C."
The density of air is 1.225 kg/m3.

I was wrong.

https://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-to-weight

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 8:05pm:

"1 Cu cm of carbon steel is 0.01kg."
The density of steel is 7.85 g/cm3

True again.. 0.01kg is 10g/cm3

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 8:05pm:

"Carbon is about 0.14 grams in air."
I don't even know what this means?

Damn. CO2 is 400 parts per million in the atmosphere or 0.04%. Carbon is 3/11 of that 0.04% CO2. So let's look at that 1.29kg of air. 1290grams*.04%*3/11 is 0.14gm, So Carbon is 0.14gram in 1 CuMetre of air. Not enough to make steel.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #195 - Jul 8^th, 2022 at 1:53pm

Frank wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 6:58pm:

You DO realise that AGW is statistics.

Like these?

"Research found the sea-level rise is about 3.6mm per year.

The figure matches quite well with satellite observations from the Jason and ENVY satellites, which are used to measure precisely the rate of sea-level rise.

The estimates are similar to those of Assessment Report 6 by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). The report calculates the rise averaged about 3.7mm per year between 2016-2018.

The sea level is now consistently rising faster than the 1.7mm per year in 1900 and 3.2mm per year in 2000.

In 2018, sea level was 13-20cm higher on average than it was in 1900.

IPCC also produces many climate scenarios including possible future sea-level rise. It states that the worst possible sea-level rise will likely approach 2 metres by 2100.

https://theconversation.com/indonesias-capital-jakarta-is-sinking-heres-how-to-s...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #196 - Jul 8^th, 2022 at 2:01pm

lee wrote on Jul 7^th, 2022 at 4:36pm:

So the banks will do it for free. Roll Eyes

No, currency-issuing governments will do it for free, the only true cost being an opportunity resource cost ; the private banks can go cry over all their lost juicy fossil profits, when they are denied the ability to charge interest on the money they create out of nothing...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #197 - Jul 8^th, 2022 at 2:04pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 8^th, 2022 at 1:53pm:

The figure matches quite well with satellite observations from the Jason and ENVY satellites, which are used to measure precisely the rate of sea-level rise.

And what is the intsrument accuracy of the satellites?

Answer - 33mm. and from that they derive a signal much smaller. Grin

Edit: And that's just instrument accuracy. BTW- It is ENVI.

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« Last Edit: Jul 8^th, 2022 at 2:11pm by lee »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #198 - Jul 8^th, 2022 at 2:06pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 8^th, 2022 at 2:01pm:

No, currency-issuing governments will do it for free, the only true cost being an opportunity resource cost ; the private banks can go cry over all their lost juicy fossil profits, when they are denied the ability to charge interest on the money they create out of nothing...

So central banks will not make a profit? How then do they earn money? Ah that's right the bottomless pit. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #199 - Jul 9^th, 2022 at 12:31am

lee wrote on Jul 8^th, 2022 at 2:06pm:

So central banks will not make a profit?

Central banks don't have to make a profit; they can create money out of thin air.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/180

Post #181

"Because they create money out of thin air.

How will it work in practice?

The RBA will be buying bonds from the "secondary market".

What does that mean?

Well, the Australian Office of Financial Management (AOFM) sells bonds on behalf of the Federal Government (via Treasury).

The bonds are sold to institutional investors (large foreign and local banks) with the promise of making regular interest payments to whoever buys them, along with a repayment of the principal at a set future date.

Those institutional investors then create their own markets for those bonds (called "secondary markets"), by on-selling them to other investors such as pension funds and super funds, hedge funds, insurance companies, private banks and central banks***, which want to hold interest-bearing assets in their portfolios.

When the RBA buys Australian Government bonds, it buys them from that secondary market.
Is this a form of money printing?

According to Sean Callow, a senior currency strategist at Westpac, you can think of it like money printing.

***so the government is buying back - in so-called "secondary markets" - the bonds it issued to institutional investors in the "primary market".

It's smoke and mirrors, so the government can hide the fact it CAN create money out of nothing....further exposed in #188-9.

Quote:

Ah that's right the bottomless pit.

So now you know: your "bottomless pit" does indeed exist....but it's for money which is always created out of nothing, NOT real finite resources which are provided by nature ...

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« Last Edit: Jul 9^th, 2022 at 10:47am by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #200 - Jul 9^th, 2022 at 12:13pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 9^th, 2022 at 12:31am:

Central banks don't have to make a profit; they can create money out of thin air.

So no inflation either because - they make money out of thin air. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 9^th, 2022 at 12:31am:

When the RBA buys Australian Government bonds, it buys them from that secondary market.
Is this a form of money printing?

No it is a form of loan repayment. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #201 - Jul 9^th, 2022 at 1:43pm

lee wrote on Jul 9^th, 2022 at 12:13pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 9^th, 2022 at 12:31am:

Central banks don't have to make a profit; they can create money out of thin air.

So no inflation either because - they make money out of thin air. Grin

Stop worrying about inflation, it's a scam - as if shortage of resources can be managed by lifting interest rates....Lowe should jailed for lifting interest rates. Inflation is ALWAYS a resources-constraint problem.

Quote:

No it is a form of loan repayment. Roll Eyes

Another scam, insisting currency-issuing governments have to tax or borrow from private sector interest-demanding, money-lending scammers.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #202 - Jul 9^th, 2022 at 8:29pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 9^th, 2022 at 1:43pm: Stop worrying about inflation, it's a scam - as if shortage of resources can be managed by lifting interest rates... S o seeing as there is no such thing as inflation the Reserve can pay anyone anything.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #203 - Jul 10^th, 2022 at 1:03pm

lee wrote on Jul 9^th, 2022 at 8:29pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/201#201 date=1657338227]

S o seeing as there is no such thing as inflation the Reserve can pay anyone anything. Grin

That's not what I said.

To repeat, inflation is a (finite) resource availability problem, not a (infinite) finance availability problem.

But central bankers want to keep you in the dark, as you should be aware by now if you read #199 above.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #204 - Jul 10^th, 2022 at 1:42pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 1:03pm: To repeat, inflation is a (finite) resource availability problem, not a (infinite) finance availability problem. But if the Reserve simply makes money out of thin air then there is no finite resource problem.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #205 - Jul 10^th, 2022 at 2:27pm

lee wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 1:42pm:

But if the Reserve simply makes money out of thin air then there is no finite resource problem. Roll Eyes

1. The reserve bank refuses to admit it CAN make (and spend) money out of thin air, and persists with the "scarcity of money" charade, as noted in #199.

2. Resources CANNOT be created out of thin air, regardless of what the central bank does or says.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #206 - Jul 10^th, 2022 at 4:08pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 2:27pm: 2. Resources CANNOT be created out of thin air, regardless of what the central bank does or says. So money is not a resource as the reserve can make it out of thin air.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #207 - Jul 10^th, 2022 at 5:41pm

lee wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 4:08pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 2:27pm:

2. Resources CANNOT be created out of thin air, regardless of what the central bank does or says.

So money is not a resource as the reserve can make it out of thin air. Roll Eyes

Exactly! (It's a convenience...which can be created out of thin air...)

I'm enjoying teaching you about money, in this "fallacy of the Greens" thread.

Interestingly, a Greens senator attended an MMT- literate 'rethinking capitalism' workshop last weekend.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #208 - Jul 10^th, 2022 at 7:31pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 5:41pm:

Exactly! (It's a convenience...which can be created out of thin air...)

So the inflationary effect of money is non-existent. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 5:41pm:

Interestingly, a Greens senator attended an MMT- literate 'rethinking capitalism' workshop last weekend.

Wow. How did an illiterate Green go? Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #209 - Jul 10^th, 2022 at 7:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 5:41pm:

Interestingly, a Greens senator attended an MMT- literate 'rethinking capitalism' workshop last weekend.

It shows how clueless the greens are. Their voters have the slogan I bludge and i vote which explains why they think money grows on trees or comes for air.

Did the Greens look at Zimbabwe or Sri Lanka to see how MMT works?

Quote:

Sri Lanka is 'bankrupt,' Prime Minister says

July 6, 2022

Colombo, Sri Lanka (CNN)Sri Lanka is "bankrupt," Prime Minister Ranil Wickremesinghe said Tuesday, as the country suffers its worst financial crisis in decades, leaving millions struggling to buy food, medicine and fuel.

Wickremesinghe told lawmakers that negotiations with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to revive the country's "collapsed" economy are "difficult," because the South Asian nation of 22 million has entered the talks as a bankrupt country, rather than a developing one.
"We are now participating in the negotiations as a bankrupt country. Therefore, we have to face a more difficult and complicated situation than previous negotiations," Wickremesinghe said in parliament.

Sri Lanka is in the midst of its worst financial crisis in seven decades, after its foreign exchange reserves plummeted to record lows, with dollars running out to pay for essential imports including food, medicine and fuel.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/05/asia/sri-lanka-bankrupt-fuel-crisis-intl-hnk/...

18 months ago economists were warning this voodoo economics called MMT could lead to disaster, it made your hero Mr Mosler pretty rich selling books to gullible idiots who bludge and vote who we call green supporters.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #210 - Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm

lee wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 7:31pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 5:41pm:

Exactly! (It's a convenience...which can be created out of thin air...)

So the inflationary effect of money is non-existent. Roll Eyes

Inflation is a resource availability problem, stop going around in circles. You already know money is limitless for a currency-issuer, resources aren't.

So, deal with the resource constraints, money devaluation is a scam foisted on us by greedy financiers demanding interest on loans....created out of thin air.

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Wow. How did an illiterate Green go? Grin

He's learning, as will the new generation of economists attending MMT courses at Torrens Uni, beginning this year.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #211 - Jul 11^th, 2022 at 6:04pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 7:54pm:

Did the Greens look at Zimbabwe or Sri Lanka to see how MMT works?

No, they know the economic situation in Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka are entirely different; the former experienced internal hyper-inflation (when productive white farmers were forced of their farms by Mugabe), the latter caused by lack of foreign exchange.

Quote:

18 months ago economists were warning this voodoo economics called MMT could lead to disaster, it made your hero Mr Mosler pretty rich selling books to gullible idiots who bludge and vote who we call green supporters.

MMT is illegal at present, that's why central banks aren't permitted to issue debt-free money.

eg the Oz government had to (sell) buy $20 billion of bonds a month at the start of the pandemic, to get rid of those unemployment queues stretching around entire city blocks.....and now we are told the government is broke, with a $trillion debt...madness.

All examined in #204, MMT thread:

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/new

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #212 - Jul 11^th, 2022 at 10:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm:

Inflation is a resource availability problem, stop going around in circles. You already know money is limitless for a currency-issuer, resources aren't.

And yet you also say money is a free bottom less pit. It can't be both.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm:

He's learning, as will the new generation of economists attending MMT courses at Torrens Uni, beginning this year.

From a Sri Lankan? Wink

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #213 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am

lee wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 10:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm:

Inflation is a resource availability problem, stop going around in circles. You already know money is limitless for a currency-issuer, resources aren't.

And yet you also say money is a free bottom less pit. It can't be both.

Gosh, commucation is a difficult thing (perhaps that's why our world is so broken).

Let's see:

1. "money is limitless, for a currency-issuer".

2. "money is a free bottom-less pit" (for a currency-issuer)

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

Quote:

From a Sri Lankan? Wink

Actually Sri Lanka has broken one of the cardinal rules of MMT: a nation should NEVER borrow in a foreign currency.

https://www.reuters.com/article/sri-lanka-debt-bond-idUSL3N20U2CH

March 7, 2019.

UPDATE 4-Sri Lanka raises $2.4 bln in dollar bond sale - term sheet

Ouch... now Sri Lanka is committed to regular interest payments on that bond, in US dollars....when only the US Fed can create US dollars out of thin air...

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« Last Edit: Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:13am by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #214 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 11:31am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am:

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

It doesn't address the inflation which is a part of your free bottomless pit. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #215 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am:

lee wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 10:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm:

Inflation is a resource availability problem, stop going around in circles. You already know money is limitless for a currency-issuer, resources aren't.

And yet you also say money is a free bottom less pit. It can't be both.

Gosh, commucation is a difficult thing (perhaps that's why our world is so broken).

Let's see:

1. "money is limitless, for a currency-issuer".

2. "money is a free bottom-less pit" (for a currency-issuer)

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

Quote:

From a Sri Lankan? Wink

Actually Sri Lanka has broken one of the cardinal rules of MMT: a nation should NEVER borrow in a foreign currency.

https://www.reuters.com/article/sri-lanka-debt-bond-idUSL3N20U2CH

March 7, 2019.

UPDATE 4-Sri Lanka raises $2.4 bln in dollar bond sale - term sheet

Ouch... now Sri Lanka is committed to regular interest payments on that bond, in US dollars....when only the US Fed can create US dollars out of thin air...

Hyperinflation
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hyperinflation.asp

Sri Lanka

In Sri Lanka, inflation reached 54.6% in June while the central bank raised interest rates to 15.5%. This means that workers in Sri Lanka are losing savings by the second, while debt repayments have increased, putting strain on household budgets. The government has failed to honor foreign debt, and the IMF has demanded that it raise taxes and combat corruption as a condition for receiving a bailout loan.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rufaskamau/2022/07/11/inflation-protests-span-sri-l...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #216 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:23pm

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 11:31am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am:

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

It doesn't address the inflation which is a part of your free bottomless pit. Grin

That's because you don't understand inflation is an excess demand (or lack of supply) problem.

For example, in a barter economy, lack of supply might be solved by a gentleman's agreement, or a spear in the back....

In a money economy, the issue is sorted by "inflation", with central banks raising interest rates to cause unemployment to reduce demand......not much different than individuals fighting one another over lack of supply with spears, I suppose.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #217 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:44pm

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:00pm:

Sri Lanka

In Sri Lanka, inflation reached 54.6% in June while the central bank raised interest rates to 15.5%. This means that workers in Sri Lanka are losing savings by the second, while debt repayments have increased, putting strain on household budgets. The government has failed to honor foreign debt, and the IMF has demanded that it raise taxes and combat corruption as a condition for receiving a bailout loan.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rufaskamau/2022/07/11/inflation-protests-span-sri-l...

Ah ha; the old IMF (Instant Misery Fund) prescription of raising taxes (as if ordinary people in Sri Lanka can pay any taxes at all...) , when every conservative Neo-Keynesian economist urges governments to lower taxes.

Sri Lanka's problems are caused by shortage of foreign exchange following collapse in covid-related tourism income; collapse in government income due to - you guessed it - introducing lower income taxes demanded by the rich; and a poorly thought out (supposedly environmentally friendly) scheme to introduce organic farming, which resulted in loss of food production.

Note: higher prices - aka "inflation" - as a result of all these factors, is not the result of "printing money", but IS due to lack of of supply including shortages of food and imported fuel, as noted above.

AND government borrowing in a foreign currency, a cardinal sin in MMT:

https://www.reuters.com/article/sri-lanka-debt-bond-idUSL3N20U2CH

March 7, 2019.

UPDATE 4-Sri Lanka raises $2.4 bln in dollar bond sale - term sheet

Ouch... now Sri Lanka is committed to regular interest payments on that bond, in US dollars....when only the US Fed can create US dollars out of thin air...

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« Last Edit: Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:52pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #218 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:23pm:

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 11:31am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am:

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

It doesn't address the inflation which is a part of your free bottomless pit. Grin

That's because you don't understand inflation is an excess demand (or lack of supply) problem.

For example, in a barter economy, lack of supply might be solved by a gentleman's agreement, or a spear in the back....

In a money economy, the issue is sorted by "inflation", with central banks raising interest rates to cause unemployment to reduce demand......not much different than individuals fighting one another over lack of supply with spears, I suppose.

Lack of supply is government-induced (see energy prices). Excess money printing is government- made (see insane subsidies over the last 2 years).

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #219 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:00pm:

Sri Lanka

In Sri Lanka, inflation reached 54.6% in June while the central bank raised interest rates to 15.5%. This means that workers in Sri Lanka are losing savings by the second, while debt repayments have increased, putting strain on household budgets. The government has failed to honor foreign debt, and the IMF has demanded that it raise taxes and combat corruption as a condition for receiving a bailout loan.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rufaskamau/2022/07/11/inflation-protests-span-sri-l...

Ah ha; the old IMF (Instant Misery Fund) prescription of raising taxes (as if ordinary people in Sri Lanka can pay any taxes at all...) , when every conservative Neo-Keynesian economist urges governments to lower taxes.

Sri Lanka's problems are caused by shortage of foreign exchange following collapse in covid-related tourism income; collapse in government income due to - you guessed it - introducing lower income taxes demanded by the rich; and a poorly thought out (supposedly environmentally friendly) scheme to introduce organic farming, which resulted in loss of food production.

Note: higher prices - aka "inflation" - as a result of all these factors, is not the result of "printing money", but IS due to lack of of supply including shortages of food and fuel, as noted above.

AND government borrowing in a foreign currency, a cardinal sin in MMT:

https://www.reuters.com/article/sri-lanka-debt-bond-idUSL3N20U2CH

March 7, 2019.

UPDATE 4-Sri Lanka raises $2.4 bln in dollar bond sale - term sheet

Ouch... now Sri Lanka is committed to regular interest payments on that bond, in US dollars....when only the US Fed can create US dollars out of thin air...

They had the government-induced meltdown BEFORE they begged for foreign loans.

And
"In response to Sri Lanka's financial crisis, China employed its devious 'Debt Trap Diplomacy' to gain a strategic edge over the nation and hold its economy hostage. The port cities of Hambantota and Colombo have been leased to China for 100 years. China is now the second largest lender to Sri Lanka, holding more than 10 per cent of Sri Lanka's outstanding foreign debt in 2019," Red Lantern Analytica said in a statement.

It added that Sri Lanka has fallen apart as a country because of the economic disaster caused by the poor governance, lack of transparency, the Chinese debt trap, and corruption.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/china-used-debt-trap-diplomacy-to-gain-control-over-sri-lanka-think-tank-122071000019_1.html

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #220 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:08pm

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:50pm:

Lack of supply is government-induced (see energy prices).

Or market-induced....see the OPEC oil cartel, and lack of a market gas-reservation scheme in east Oz; (and food and fuel price-rises - erroneously termed "inflation"** related to Western sanctions, in the Ukraine war).

** how the f**k will lifting interest rates overcome supply shortages - other than by killing demand and the economy with it...)

Quote:

Excess money printing is government- made (see insane subsidies over the last 2 years).

The insanity was forcing the government to borrow money "which must be repaid" (as said by loony- tunes Philip Lowe himself), during the pandemic lock-downs.

Admittedly, another error was to throw money into everyone's bank accounts (including Harvey Norman and the like) , regardless of who actually needed it, during the lockdown....

Government should merely have paid the essential bills of locked-down workers (mainly food, utilities and and housing costs) , with UN-BORROWED "printed" money, to avoid the pool of excess purchasing power that became evident after the lifting of the lock-downs.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #221 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:08pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:50pm:

Lack of supply is government-induced (see energy prices).

Or market-induced....see the OPEC oil cartel, and lack of a market gas-reservation scheme in east Oz; (and food and fuel price-rises - erroneously termed "inflation"** related to Western sanctions, in the Ukraine war).

** how the f**k will lifting interest rates overcome supply shortages - other than by killing demand and the economy with it...)

Quote:

Excess money printing is government- made (see insane subsidies over the last 2 years).

The insanity was forcing the government to borrow money "which must be repaid" (as said by loony- tunes Philip Lowe himself), during the pandemic lock-downs.

Admittedly, another error was to throw money into everyone's bank accounts (including Harvey Norman and the like) , regardless of who actually needed it, during the lockdown....

Government should merely have paid the essential bills of locked-down workers (mainly food, utilities and and housing costs) , with UN-BORROWED "printed" money, to avoid the pool of excess purchasing power that became evident after the lifting of the lock-downs.

Oh, so printing money is both a bottomless pit - and must be done prudently. A magic pudding but consume with care.

Right-oh....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #222 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:36pm

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:54pm:

They had the government-induced meltdown BEFORE they begged for foreign loans.

Loss of tourism income (due to covid) isn't government-induced meltdown, though the government did make many mistakes in the decade leading up to the meltdown.

Quote:

And
"In response to Sri Lanka's financial crisis, China employed its devious 'Debt Trap Diplomacy' to gain a strategic edge over the nation and hold its economy hostage. The port cities of Hambantota and Colombo have been leased to China for 100 years. China is now the second largest lender to Sri Lanka, holding more than 10 per cent of Sri Lanka's outstanding foreign debt in 2019," Red Lantern Analytica said in a statement.

It added that Sri Lanka has fallen apart as a country because of the economic disaster caused by the poor governance, lack of transparency, the Chinese debt trap, and corruption.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/china-used-debt-trap-diplomacy-to-gain-control-over-sri-lanka-think-tank-122071000019_1.html

Ah..the old "China debt diplomacy" theory...trust the US outfit 'business standard' to lie through its teeth.

https://www.dw.com/en/sri-lankas-foreign-debt-default-why-the-island-nation-went...

Sri Lanka Foreign Debt Summary

China 10%,
Japan 10%,
World Bank 9%,
market borrowings 47% (including US-dollar-denominated bonds - a cardinal sin in MMT),
India 2%,
Other 9%.

In other words, disgusting US lies re China "debt trap diplomacy".

And of course the US stooge the IMF (Instant Misery Fund) has NEVER shown any inclination to fund infrastructure development in developing countries in the ME, Africa and South Asia.

Lets see if Biden's various BBBW schemes - a desperate attempt to rival China's BRI - amount to anything at all.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #223 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 2:24pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:23pm: That's because you don't understand inflation is an excess demand (or lack of supply) problem. But money is not a supply problem You have said so yourself governments can simply create money.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #224 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 2:29pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:36pm:

And of course the US stooge the IMF (Instant Misery Fund) has NEVER shown any inclination to fund infrastructure development in developing countries in the ME, Africa and South Asia.

Not quite correct. The IMF won't fund fossil fuel infrastructure but they are all aboard the neocolonialist renewables funding. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #225 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 8:43pm

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 2:24pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:23pm:

That's because you don't understand inflation is an excess demand (or lack of supply) problem.

But money is not a supply problem You have said so yourself governments can simply create money. Roll Eyes

A particularly slow learner. It seems I must add the implied words which I assumed you would know by now.

So to repeat:

"That's because you don't understand inflation is a problem of excess demand ON available productive or produced resources ; or lack of supply OF desired resources.

Can you forget money for a moment, to let the above statement sink in?

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #226 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 9:38pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 8:43pm: Can you forget money for a moment, to let the above statement sink in? So you want me to forget your argument about money?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #227 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 3:13pm

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 9:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 8:43pm:

Can you forget money for a moment, to let the above statement sink in?

So you want me to forget your argument about money? Grin

No, I said "for a moment", because you have shown I must lead you one tiny step at a time, for you to understand money is a convenience, not a resource.

"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. When something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent.”....

https://neweconomics.org/2012/12/where-does-money-come-from

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #228 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 4:32pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 3:13pm: No, I said "for a moment", because you have shown I must lead you one tiny step at a time, for you to understand money is a convenience, not a resource. Yes money is not a resource then neither is inflation. Inflation? Print more money.
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John_Taverner Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2217 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #229 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 8:42am I wouldn't trust the Greens to run a chook raffle. We need the Teal independants to form a reliable right-leaning environmentally reponsible party, like there is in Canada.
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #230 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 8:45am John_Taverner wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 8:42am: I wouldn't trust the Greens to run a chook raffle. We need the Teal independants to form a reliable right-leaning environmentally reponsible party, like there is in Canada. You're hoping the teals will trust science but still hate poor and trans people?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #231 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 2:46pm

lee wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 4:32pm:

Yes money is not a resource then neither is inflation.

You are now on the right track.

Quote:

Inflation? Print more money. Roll Eyes

Oops.. veered off badly....

I'll try another tack.

Philip Lowe insisted (and lied) that he had to borrow the $20 billion/month he needed at the start of the pandemic, to ensure locked-down workers could afford to buy food and pay their housing/utility bills.

Why on earth did he need to borrow money "which must be repaid" (which is the reason why Chalmers is now claiming he can't afford to hand out free RATS tests anymore), when Lowe has the ability to change the digits in the bank accounts of laid off workers, without any risk of inflation, because the locked-down workers purchasing power would not increase?

Note: Lowe made 2 mistakes: he borrowed money which "must be repaid"; and instead of simply paying essential bills of laid-off workers, he threw the borrowed money "which must be repaid" around like confetti, including to millionaires.

And now he shouting "inflation", even though the confetti money he threw around which has resulted in increased purchasing-power/demand in the economy, will run out quickly enough, and the real problem behind current fuel, food and housing price rises is supply blockages, which will also subside soon enough (though the Oz housing Ponzi has other problems than mere supply).

His solution: raise interest rates and crash the economy, that'll cure "inflation".

He should be sacked immediately.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #232 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 3:11pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 8:45am:

You're hoping the teals will trust science but still hate poor and trans people?

RW'ers don't care about poor people; they either see taxes as "theft", or regard government intervention to deal with poverty as a threat to incentive, or pandering to "sloth".

But my difficulty with the Greens, and the Australia Institute - is they think that raising sufficient taxation to fund poverty alleviation is politically feasible.

The coming bun-fight over the Coalition's stage 3 tax cuts which Albo is determined to stick with (because they won him the election?) will be hideous to watch.

And then Albo and the Greens both expect the private sector will agree to fund the $20 billion grid upgrade, and increase deployment of solar/wind rapidly enough to avoid opening up new coal and gas (which even Bowen thinks is necessary - that'll be another bun-fight between the Green and Labor), despite the fact there is more profit to be had in fossil exploitation.

And I suppose the Teals are in lockstep with market economics as well.

Losers.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #233 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:02pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 3:11pm:

RW'ers don't care about poor people; they either see taxes as "theft", or regard government intervention to deal with poverty as a threat to incentive, or pandering to "sloth".

.
You mean unlike the LW'ers who don't want the poor countries to have cheap reliable fossil fuel? Roll Eyes

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #234 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:04pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 2:46pm: lee wrote Yesterday at 2:32pm: Yes money is not a resource then neither is inflation. You are now on the right track. Money is a convenience then inflation is merely an inconvenience.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #235 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:08pm

lee wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 3:11pm:

RW'ers don't care about poor people; they either see taxes as "theft", or regard government intervention to deal with poverty as a threat to incentive, or pandering to "sloth".

.
You mean unlike the LW'ers who don't want the poor countries to have cheap reliable fossil fuel? Roll Eyes

LW'ers want cheap reliable renewable energy for everyone , paid for by the rich world as necessary.

(Meantime Philip Lowe's "money printer" which he refuses to use other than by sheeting the bill to the public, is sitting there, see #231....which you have obviously already looked at but are unable to refute or critique at all....

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #236 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:12pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:08pm:

LW'ers want cheap reliable renewable energy for everyone , paid for by the rich world as necessary.

EXCEPT fossil fuels. The IMF, World Bank etc refuse to have anything to do with fossil fuel, despite the citizens wanting it. LW'ers are of course only doing it for their own good because they only have limited knowledge. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #237 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:53pm

lee wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:12pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:08pm:

LW'ers want cheap reliable renewable energy for everyone , paid for by the rich world as necessary.

EXCEPT fossil fuels. The IMF, World Bank etc refuse to have anything to do with fossil fuel, despite the citizens wanting it.

Contradicting yourself? If the IMF (Instant Misery Fund) and WB are falling over themselves to fund renewable energy, why aren't they doing it?

Quote:

LW'ers are of course only doing it for their own good because they only have limited knowledge. Roll Eyes

Regardless, the IMF and WB apparently have some knowledge re AGW climate change, because they "refuse to have anything to do with fossils" ...according to you.... oops.

And as for IMF and WB funding, #231 is still sitting there; can't get your brain into gear?

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« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:58pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #238 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 7:23pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:53pm:

Contradicting yourself?

No

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:53pm:

If the IMF (Instant Misery Fund) and WB are falling over themselves to fund renewable energy, why aren't they doing it?

"The World Bank's Board of Executive Directors approved today US$6.9 million in additional financing for the Haiti: Renewable Energy for All Project. This financing aims to scale up renewable energy investments to expand and improve access to electricity for health infrastructure, households, businesses, and community services."

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2020/09/30/world-bank-supports-s...

"The IMF is offering support by working with the Network of Central Banks and Supervisors for Greening the Financial System and other standard-setting bodies to promote green finance more broadly and developing climate-related stress tests."

https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/green-finance

You really have n o clue. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:53pm:

Regardless, the IMF and WB apparently have some knowledge re AGW climate change, because they "refuse to have anything to do with fossils" ...according to you.... oops.

Yes. They are fully on board the CAGW gravy train. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:53pm:

And as for IMF and WB funding, #231 is still sitting there; can't get your brain into gear?

Nothing there about the IMF or World Bank. Roll Eyes

Jim Chalmers has never held a job out of politics. What makes you think he understands anything economic? Grin

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« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2022 at 7:29pm by lee »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #239 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 9:31pm

lee wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 7:23pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 4:53pm:

Contradicting yourself?

No.
"The World Bank's Board of Executive Directors approved today US$6.9 million in additional financing for the Haiti: Renewable Energy for All Project. This financing aims to scale up renewable energy investments to expand and improve access to electricity for health infrastructure, households, businesses, and community services."

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2020/09/30/world-bank-supports-s...

ROTFL. Haiti, a failed state (pop. half Oz) with communal rioting like an increasing number of failed states, gets $7 million from the Instant Misery Fund, when it needs at least $10 billion to transition to renewables, forget another $20 billion to bring housing and (non-energy) infrastructure up to standard.

"Additional financing" indeed, via loans which have to be repaid to the Instant Misery Fund.

Quote:

"The IMF is offering support by working with the Network of Central Banks and Supervisors for Greening the Financial System and other standard-setting bodies to promote green finance more broadly and developing climate-related stress tests."

Meaningless waffle, typical of the Instant Misery Fund.

Quote:

https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/green-finance

You really have n o clue. Grin

Certainly the Instant Misery Fund doesn't a clue other than how to enrich itself, as any nation unfortunate to fall into its grubby hands knows: higher taxes, privatize everything that moves, slash pensions and benefits, to "restore government finances"...

Quote:

Yes. They are fully on board the CAGW gravy train. Roll Eyes

That's right, because the profit-gouging fossil industry doesn't need them; so they can pretend to be useful by lending pennies to fund some solar panels in poor nations.

Quote:

Nothing there about the IMF or World Bank. Roll Eyes

Because they are evil interest-seeking loan sharks, unlike you (hopefully) who doesn't know any better (but the defense of ignorance will only last so long).

Stop finding excuses not to address the substantive point, ie the "(govt.) borrowed money which must be repaid" central bank myth.

Quote:

Jim Chalmers has never held a job out of politics. What makes you think he understands anything economic? Grin

He doesn't, but that doesn't mean you do.....#231 is still waiting for you to at least try to exonerate yourself somewhat...

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« Last Edit: Jul 14^th, 2022 at 9:39pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #240 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 10:14pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 9:31pm:

ROTFL. Haiti, a failed state (pop. half Oz) with communal rioting like an increasing number of failed states, gets $7 million from the Instant Misery Fund, when it needs at least $10 billion to transition to renewables, forget another $20 billion to bring housing and (non-energy) infrastructure up to standard.

So an island of less than 30,00 sq km needs at least $10 billion? And you were saying renewables are cheap. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 9:31pm:

at makes you think he understands anything economic? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

He doesn't, but that doesn't mean you do.....#231 is still waiting for you to at least try to exonerate yourself somewhat...

You have shown you have no clue. Bye. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #241 - Jul 14^th, 2022 at 10:37pm

lee wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 10:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 14^th, 2022 at 9:31pm:

ROTFL. Haiti, a failed state (pop. half Oz) with communal rioting like an increasing number of failed states, gets $7 million from the Instant Misery Fund, when it needs at least $10 billion to transition to renewables, forget another $20 billion to bring housing and (non-energy) infrastructure up to standard.

So an island of less than 30,00 sq km needs at least $10 billion? And you were saying renewables are cheap. Grin

I have always said renewable energy will be free, once the infrastructure is built, est. 'cost': starting around $100 trillion for the globe, but that 'cost' is resources, not money which is fre....oh never mind.

Quote:

You have shown you have no clue. Bye. Grin

Too inadequate or frightened to even try to identify the error in #231?

Intellectual cowardice, maybe.

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #242 - Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #243 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:07am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/113/586/830/original/0e0fbf...

1. China is already the world's largest producer and consumer of renewable electricity, and proceeding apace with it's emissions reduction time-table

2. China has ceased funding more overseas coal projects.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #244 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 10:09am

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/113/586/830/original/0e0fbf...

1. China is already the world's largest producer and consumer of renewable electricity, and proceeding apace with it's emissions reduction time-table

2. China has ceased funding more overseas coal projects.

Context-free = deliberately misleading eyewash.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #245 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 12:31pm

Frank wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 10:09am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/113/586/830/original/0e0fbf...

1. China is already the world's largest producer and consumer of renewable electricity, and proceeding apace with it's emissions reduction time-table

2. China has ceased funding more overseas coal projects.

Context-free = deliberately misleading eyewash.

You must know Germany is switching back to coal, as a result of trying to wean itself off Russian gas.

China must face the same transition problems as everyone else ie how to develop sufficient storage for renewables, to deal with extreme weather events like extended periods of extreme cold or heat which increase demand for electricity.

So no, your anti-China bias is showing.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #246 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:51pm thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 12:31pm: You must know Germany is switching back to coal, as a result of trying to wean itself off Russian gas. Actually they were reopening coal mines before their Ukraine War. What they found is renewables are unreliables.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #247 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:57pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/113/586/830/original/0e0fbf...

1. China is already the world's largest producer and consumer of renewable electricity, and proceeding apace with it's emissions reduction time-table

2. China has ceased funding more overseas coal projects.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #248 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:43pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:57pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/113/586/830/original/0e0fbf...

1. China is already the world's largest producer and consumer of renewable electricity, and proceeding apace with it's emissions reduction time-table

2. China has ceased funding more overseas coal projects.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

That's because China is bigger than all those economies put together. And the fact remains, China is the largest producer and consumer of renewables....and increasing as per the 5 year plans to carbon neutrality. Increasing coal will peak in 2030.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #249 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:56pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:43pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:57pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/113/586/830/original/0e0fbf...

1. China is already the world's largest producer and consumer of renewable electricity, and proceeding apace with it's emissions reduction time-table

2. China has ceased funding more overseas coal projects.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

That's because China is bigger than all those economies put together. And the fact remains, China is the largest producer and consumer of renewables....and increasing as per the 5 year plans to carbon neutrality. Increasing coal will peak in 2030.

Don't make excuses for the Chinese destroying our planet.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #250 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 4:06pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:43pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:57pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/113/586/830/original/0e0fbf...

1. China is already the world's largest producer and consumer of renewable electricity, and proceeding apace with it's emissions reduction time-table

2. China has ceased funding more overseas coal projects.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

That's because China is bigger than all those economies put together. And the fact remains, China is the largest producer and consumer of renewables....and increasing as per the 5 year plans to carbon neutrality. Increasing coal will peak in 2030.

Don't make excuses for the Chinese destroying our planet.

Er ... American CO2 emissions per capita are five times those of China's. And yet you want the Chinese to disappear, so you can keep burning fossils.

We are all destroying the planet, some individuals are contributing to that destruction more than others, and most of those particular individuals are in the First world.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #251 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 4:21pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:43pm:

And the fact remains, China is the largest producer and consumer of renewables.

A whole 11.7% Grin

https://www.statista.com/statistics/302233/china-power-generation-by-source/

.thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 4:06pm:

American CO2 emissions per capita are five times those of China's.

oh the per capita wankfest. If it is only per capita amounts that count we can rest easy until China catches up. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #252 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 4:27pm

lee wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 4:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:43pm:

And the fact remains, China is the largest producer and consumer of renewables.

A whole 11.7% Grin

still more than any other country

Quote:

oh the per capita wankfest. If it is only per capita amounts that count we can rest easy until China catches up. Grin

No wankfest; the individuals who are most responsible for CO2 emissions are the ones who must reduce them the most.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #253 - Aug 17^th, 2022 at 5:02pm thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 4:27pm: No wankfest; the individuals who are most responsible for CO2 emissions are the ones who must reduce them the most. So country emissions don't count. Therefore we can wait for China to catch up.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #254 - Aug 18^th, 2022 at 4:56pm

lee wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 5:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 4:27pm:

No wankfest; the individuals who are most responsible for CO2 emissions are the ones who must reduce them the most.

So country emissions don't count. Therefore we can wait for China to catch up. Roll Eyes

There are 8 billion of us, the most responsible must do the most. When the 1st world's per capita emissions are reduced to 3rd/developing-world levels, then you can start demanding India and China pull their weight.

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59523 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #255 - Aug 18^th, 2022 at 5:14pm Jordan Peterson and Tim Blair hit out at ‘utterly delusional’ Albanese government ( and the MeToo Morrison gov, they should have added) Chico Marx was right, there is no Sanity Clause when it comes to net zero and other Gretaesque sloganeering.
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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #256 - Aug 18^th, 2022 at 5:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 4:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:43pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:57pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/113/586/830/original/0e0fbf...

1. China is already the world's largest producer and consumer of renewable electricity, and proceeding apace with it's emissions reduction time-table

2. China has ceased funding more overseas coal projects.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

That's because China is bigger than all those economies put together. And the fact remains, China is the largest producer and consumer of renewables....and increasing as per the 5 year plans to carbon neutrality. Increasing coal will peak in 2030.

Don't make excuses for the Chinese destroying our planet.

Er ... American CO2 emissions per capita are five times those of China's. And yet you want the Chinese to disappear, so you can keep burning fossils.

We are all destroying the planet, some individuals are contributing to that destruction more than others, and most of those particular individuals are in the First world.

The Chinese are destroying the planet far more than any other country.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #257 - Aug 18^th, 2022 at 10:33pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 18^th, 2022 at 5:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 4:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 2:43pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:57pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 17^th, 2022 at 1:07am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2022 at 4:29pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/113/586/830/original/0e0fbf...

1. China is already the world's largest producer and consumer of renewable electricity, and proceeding apace with it's emissions reduction time-table

2. China has ceased funding more overseas coal projects.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

That's because China is bigger than all those economies put together. And the fact remains, China is the largest producer and consumer of renewables....and increasing as per the 5 year plans to carbon neutrality. Increasing coal will peak in 2030.

Don't make excuses for the Chinese destroying our planet.

Er ... American CO2 emissions per capita are five times those of China's. And yet you want the Chinese to disappear, so you can keep burning fossils.

We are all destroying the planet, some individuals are contributing to that destruction more than others, and most of those particular individuals are in the First world.

The Chinese are destroying the planet far more than any other country.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

That's not debate, that's blind, uniformed repetition.

The 3rd world/developing world has 6 times the population of the first world which is responsible for most of the man-made CO2 in the atmosphere, over the last 200 years.

The developing world has a right to develop; if you want them to use renewables, you better pay them to do it.

....although there is a way in which the whole world can go 'green for free' ASAP...though neoliberal market ideologues are too blind to see it:

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/225#238

#237

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #258 - Aug 18^th, 2022 at 10:52pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 18^th, 2022 at 10:33pm:

That's not debate, that's blind, uniformed repetition.

The 3rd world/developing world has 6 times the population of the first world which is responsible for most of the man-made CO2 in the atmosphere, over the last 200 years.

The developing world has a right to develop; if you want them to use renewables, you better pay them to do it.

....although there is a way in which the whole world can go 'green for free' ASAP...though neoliberal market ideologues are too blind to see it:

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/225#238

#237

Only Thorium power stations can save our planet.
Cheap, safe, unlimited power.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150#150

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #259 - Aug 19^th, 2022 at 12:06am

Bobby. wrote on Aug 18^th, 2022 at 10:52pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 18^th, 2022 at 10:33pm:

That's not debate, that's blind, uniformed repetition.

The 3rd world/developing world has 6 times the population of the first world which is responsible for most of the man-made CO2 in the atmosphere, over the last 200 years.

The developing world has a right to develop; if you want them to use renewables, you better pay them to do it.

....although there is a way in which the whole world can go 'green for free' ASAP...though neoliberal market ideologues are too blind to see it:

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/225#238

#237

Only Thorium power stations can save our planet.
Cheap, safe, unlimited power.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150#150

Maybe, but how is the 3rd world - neverlone the rich world - going to pay for it ASAP?

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #260 - Aug 19^th, 2022 at 8:28am

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 12:06am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 18^th, 2022 at 10:52pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 18^th, 2022 at 10:33pm:

That's not debate, that's blind, uniformed repetition.

The 3rd world/developing world has 6 times the population of the first world which is responsible for most of the man-made CO2 in the atmosphere, over the last 200 years.

The developing world has a right to develop; if you want them to use renewables, you better pay them to do it.

....although there is a way in which the whole world can go 'green for free' ASAP...though neoliberal market ideologues are too blind to see it:

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/225#238

#237

Only Thorium power stations can save our planet.
Cheap, safe, unlimited power.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150#150

Maybe, but how is the 3rd world - neverlone the rich world - going to pay for it ASAP?

The scientists and engineers need to make the first working,
large power station first before we can talk about who will pay.
I am disappointed that it's taking so long.
There was already a working molten salt reactor in the late 1960s.

Bobby. wrote on Nov 8^th, 2018 at 6:36pm:

A Thorium reactor was working for 4 years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment

The Molten-Salt Reactor Experiment (MSRE) was an experimental molten salt reactor at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) researching this technology through the 1960s; constructed by 1964,
it went critical in 1965 and was operated until 1969.[1]

The MSRE was a 7.4 MWth test reactor simulating the neutronic "kernel" of a type of inherently safer epithermal thorium breeder reactor called the liquid fluoride thorium reactor. It primarily used two fuels: first uranium-235 and later uranium-233. The latter 233UF4 was the result of breeding from thorium in other reactors. Since this was an engineering test, the large, expensive breeding blanket of thorium salt was omitted in favor of neutron measurements.

In the MSRE, the heat from the reactor core was shed via a cooling system using air blown over radiators. It is thought similar reactors could power high-efficiency heat engines such as closed-cycle gas turbines.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #261 - Aug 19^th, 2022 at 8:57am

First we had the Great Barrington Declaration, challenging the 'settled' scientific consensus about lockdowns. Now comes the World Climate Declaration, challenging the computer models predicting environmental catastrophe.

1,200 Scientists and Professionals Declare: “There is No Climate Emergency”

BY CHRIS MORRISON 18 AUGUST 2022

The political fiction that humans cause most or all climate change and the claim that the science behind this notion is ‘settled’, has been dealt a savage blow by the publication of a ‘World Climate Declaration (WCD)’ signed by over 1,100 scientists and professionals. There is no climate emergency, say the authors, who are drawn from across the world and led by the Norwegian physics Nobel Prize laureate Professor Ivar Giaever. Climate science is said to have degenerated into a discussion based on beliefs, not on sound self-critical science.

The scale of the opposition to modern day ‘settled’ climate science is remarkable, given how difficult it is in academia to raise grants for any climate research that departs from the political orthodoxy. (A full list of the signatories is available here.) Another lead author of the declaration, Professor Richard Lindzen, has called the current climate narrative “absurd”, but acknowledged that trillions of dollars and the relentless propaganda from grant-dependent academics and agenda-driven journalists currently says it is not absurd.

Particular ire in the WCD is reserved for climate models. To believe in the outcome of a climate model is to believe what the model makers have put in. Climate models are now central to today’s climate discussion and the scientists see this as a problem. “We should free ourselves from the naïve belief in immature climate models,” says the WCD. “In future, climate research must give significantly more emphasis to empirical science.”

https://dailysceptic.org/2022/08/18/1200-scientists-and-professionals-declare-th...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #262 - Aug 19^th, 2022 at 12:23pm

Frank wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 8:57am:

First we had the Great Barrington Declaration, challenging the 'settled' scientific consensus about lockdowns.

(from wiki)

"It claimed harmful COVID-19 lockdowns could be avoided via the fringe notion of "focused protection", by which those most at risk could purportedly be kept safe while society otherwise continued functioning normally.

The document presumed without evidence that the disease burden of mass infection could be tolerated, that any infection would confer long term sterilizing immunity, and it made no mention of physical distancing, masks, contact tracing,[6] or long COVID, which has left patients with debilitating symptoms months after the initial infection.

In other words, lock up the elderly and let covid rip through the community....despite the fact covid claimed the lives of many non-elderly.

Quote:

Now comes the World Climate Declaration, challenging the computer models predicting environmental catastrophe.

1,200 Scientists and Professionals Declare: “There is No Climate Emergency”

BY CHRIS MORRISON 18 AUGUST 2022

The political fiction that humans cause most or all climate change and the claim that the science behind this notion is ‘settled’, has been dealt a savage blow by the publication of a ‘World Climate Declaration (WCD)’ signed by over 1,100 scientists and professionals. There is no climate emergency, say the authors, who are drawn from across the world and led by the Norwegian physics Nobel Prize laureate Professor Ivar Giaever. Climate science is said to have degenerated into a discussion based on beliefs, not on sound self-critical science.

The scale of the opposition to modern day ‘settled’ climate science is remarkable, given how difficult it is in academia to raise grants for any climate research that departs from the political orthodoxy. (A full list of the signatories is available here.) Another lead author of the declaration, Professor Richard Lindzen, has called the current climate narrative “absurd”, but acknowledged that trillions of dollars and the relentless propaganda from grant-dependent academics and agenda-driven journalists currently says it is not absurd.

Particular ire in the WCD is reserved for climate models. To believe in the outcome of a climate model is to believe what the model makers have put in. Climate models are now central to today’s climate discussion and the scientists see this as a problem. “We should free ourselves from the naïve belief in immature climate models,” says the WCD. “In future, climate research must give significantly more emphasis to empirical science.”

https://dailysceptic.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/119552396_bcd4d052-4f5a-4c1e...

https://dailysceptic.org/2022/08/18/1200-scientists-and-professionals-declare-th...

Even accepting that, fossils will run out, and they are becoming increasingly expensive as the easy-to-extract reserves are all used, not to mention private profit- gougers seeking riches on the back of consumers of essential power.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #263 - Aug 19^th, 2022 at 1:05pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 12:23pm:

In other words, lock up the elderly and let covid rip through the community....despite the fact covid claimed the lives of many non-elderly.

But according to some COVID saved us from greater CO2 as seen from space.

Unfortunately the latest spectrometers have an accuracy of about 0.3%. The claimed reduction was less than 1ppm.

"Currently, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere averages about 405 molecules out of every 1 million molecules of air, a ratio that scientists call “405 parts per million.” OCO-3 will measure this tiny percentage to an accuracy of about 0.3 to
0.5 percent."

https://ocov3.jpl.nasa.gov/documents/1/oco-3-fact-sheet-4-pages.pdf

"We show that the impact of short-term regional changes in fossil fuel emissions on CO2 concentrations was observable from space. Starting in February and continuing through May, column CO2 over many of the world’s largest emitting regions was 0.14 to 0.62 parts per million less than expected in a pandemic-free scenario, consistent with reductions of 3 to 13% in annual global emissions."

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abf9415

0.3% of 415 ppm = 1.245ppm. Isn't it amazing how scientists can find things finer than the instrumental accuracy? Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #264 - Aug 19^th, 2022 at 4:37pm

lee wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 1:05pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 12:23pm:

In other words, lock up the elderly and let covid rip through the community....despite the fact covid claimed the lives of many non-elderly.

But according to some COVID saved us from greater CO2 as seen from space.

Logical, one would think; lockdowns stop people driving their cars.

Quote:

Unfortunately the latest spectrometers have an accuracy of about 0.3%. The claimed reduction was less than 1ppm.

If you say so.

Quote:

"Currently, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere averages about 405 molecules out of every 1 million molecules of air, a ratio that scientists call “405 parts per million.” OCO-3 will measure this tiny percentage to an accuracy of about 0.3 to
0.5 percent."

https://ocov3.jpl.nasa.gov/documents/1/oco-3-fact-sheet-4-pages.pdf

"We show that the impact of short-term regional changes in fossil fuel emissions on CO2 concentrations was observable from space. Starting in February and continuing through May, column CO2 over many of the world’s largest emitting regions was 0.14 to 0.62 parts per million less than expected in a pandemic-free scenario, consistent with reductions of 3 to 13% in annual global emissions."

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abf9415

0.3% of 415 ppm = 1.245ppm. Isn't it amazing how scientists can find things finer than the instrumental accuracy? Roll Eyes

Yes. But a pandemic scenario is very localized, with essential industry continuing as required.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #265 - Aug 19^th, 2022 at 4:46pm thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 4:37pm: es. But a pandemic scenario is very localized, with essential industry continuing as required. Yes...But... The claimed differences were smaller than the instrument data. In other words Bullshcist. Just sciencey sounding to get the suckers, like you, in.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #266 - Aug 19^th, 2022 at 5:39pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 12:23pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 8:57am:

1,200 Scientists and Professionals Declare: “There is No Climate Emergency”

BY CHRIS MORRISON 18 AUGUST 2022

The political fiction that humans cause most or all climate change and the claim that the science behind this notion is ‘settled’, has been dealt a savage blow by the publication of a ‘World Climate Declaration (WCD)’ signed by over 1,100 scientists and professionals. There is no climate emergency, say the authors, who are drawn from across the world and led by the Norwegian physics Nobel Prize laureate Professor Ivar Giaever. Climate science is said to have degenerated into a discussion based on beliefs, not on sound self-critical science.

The scale of the opposition to modern day ‘settled’ climate science is remarkable, given how difficult it is in academia to raise grants for any climate research that departs from the political orthodoxy. (A full list of the signatories is available here.) Another lead author of the declaration, Professor Richard Lindzen, has called the current climate narrative “absurd”, but acknowledged that trillions of dollars and the relentless propaganda from grant-dependent academics and agenda-driven journalists currently says it is not absurd.

Particular ire in the WCD is reserved for climate models. To believe in the outcome of a climate model is to believe what the model makers have put in. Climate models are now central to today’s climate discussion and the scientists see this as a problem. “We should free ourselves from the naïve belief in immature climate models,” says the WCD. “In future, climate research must give significantly more emphasis to empirical science.”

https://dailysceptic.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/119552396_bcd4d052-4f5a-4c1e...

https://dailysceptic.org/2022/08/18/1200-scientists-and-professionals-declare-th...

Even accepting that, fossils will run out, and they are becoming increasingly expensive as the easy-to-extract reserves are all used, not to mention private profit- gougers seeking riches on the back of consumers of essential power.

It is one thing to do something because of a baseless and artificially induced climate panic and to do it in a considered, calm, measured way.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #267 - Aug 20^th, 2022 at 2:15pm

lee wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 4:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 4:37pm:

es. But a pandemic scenario is very localized, with essential industry continuing as required.

Yes...But... Grin

The claimed differences were smaller than the instrument data. In other words Bullshcist. Just sciencey sounding to get the suckers, like you, in. Grin

Er ....you jumped in with the " differences were smaller than the instrument data" spiel.

I ignored them...beyond noting lockdowns probably reduce the number of cars on the road.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #268 - Aug 20^th, 2022 at 2:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 2:15pm:

Er ....you jumped in with the " differences were smaller than the instrument data" spiel.

I ignored them

No you didn't.

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 4:37pm:

Quote:
Unfortunately the latest spectrometers have an accuracy of about 0.3%. The claimed reduction was less than 1ppm.

If you say so.

You can't even lie straight. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #269 - Aug 20^th, 2022 at 2:25pm

lee wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 2:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 2:15pm:

Er ....you jumped in with the " differences were smaller than the instrument data" spiel.

I ignored them

No you didn't.

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 19^th, 2022 at 4:37pm:

Quote:
Unfortunately the latest spectrometers have an accuracy of about 0.3%. The claimed reduction was less than 1ppm.

If you say so.

You can't even lie straight. Grin

"If you say so".

Explain to us what you think I meant by that...

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #270 - Aug 20^th, 2022 at 3:01pm thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 2:25pm: Explain to us what you think I meant by that... You were saying that it may be so or maybe not. As in it was "only my say so". But I showed that it wasn't just me. It certainly isn't ignoring it.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #271 - Aug 20^th, 2022 at 4:34pm

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/14/people-are-waking-up-fight-w...

People are waking up: fight widens to stop new North Sea fossil fuel drilling

The fossil companies want to cash in on the war, of course....and regardless of climate change, they will keep gouging consumers.

Instead of new fossil schemes which will take years to come on stream, globalized investment in a solar farm covering less than 2% of the Sahara desert will power Europe (apparently sufficient for the world, amazing...)

https://blogs.kcl.ac.uk/sustainability/2021/08/what-would-happen-if-we-covered-t...

"1.2% of the surface (of the Sahara) should be enough to generate enough electricity without having such extreme impacts on the environment.

But is it feasible?

It is probably not realistic to expect political cohesion and economic investment to quickly make such a concept a reality".

So there we have it, the barrier to free energy from the sun is not technical, but political...such is the evil flowing from the current entrenched global neoliberal market orthodoxy, as hideous as any extant religious fundamentalism.

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #272 - Aug 20^th, 2022 at 5:08pm Sahara Desert solar cells? But how would that energy be stored for the night time?
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #273 - Aug 20^th, 2022 at 6:07pm Bobby. wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 5:08pm: Sahara Desert solar cells? But how would that energy be stored for the night time? For European storage, in pumped-hydro storage schemes in Africa's Atlas Mountains.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #274 - Aug 20^th, 2022 at 6:26pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 6:07pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 5:08pm:

Sahara Desert solar cells?

But how would that energy be stored for the night time?

For European storage, in pumped-hydro storage schemes in Africa's Atlas Mountains.

Well they need to get it started quickly.

https://blogs.kcl.ac.uk/sustainability/2021/08/what-would-happen-if-we-covered-t...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #275 - Aug 21^st, 2022 at 12:51pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 6:26pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 6:07pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20^th, 2022 at 5:08pm:

Sahara Desert solar cells?

But how would that energy be stored for the night time?

For European storage, in pumped-hydro storage schemes in Africa's Atlas Mountains.

Well they need to get it started quickly.

Correct; but the politics of the 'human condition', torn between instinctive individual survival, and reasoned collective well-being, is a barrier to action, as already mentioned.

If a climate change emergency is recognized by the majority to be real, perhaps reason may triumph over instinct for the first time in the history of human affairs.

Allowing 'survival of the fittest (individual)' to give way to 'common prosperity'....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #276 - Aug 21^st, 2022 at 1:14pm

Michael E Mann of "hockeystick" "fame". Climate scientist

"Another new front in the new climate war is what you call “doomism”. What do you mean by that?
Doom-mongering has overtaken denial as a threat and as a tactic. Inactivists know that if people believe there is nothing you can do, they are led down a path of disengagement. They unwittingly do the bidding of fossil fuel interests by giving up.

What is so pernicious about this is that it seeks to weaponise environmental progressives who would otherwise be on the frontline demanding change. These are folk of good intentions and good will, but they become disillusioned or depressed and they fall into despair. But “too late” narratives are invariably based on a misunderstanding of science. Many of the prominent doomist narratives – [Jonathan] Franzen, David Wallace-Wells, the Deep Adaptation movement – can be traced back to a false notion that an Arctic methane bomb will cause runaway warming and extinguish all life on earth within 10 years. This is completely wrong. There is no science to support that."

"If the science objectively demonstrated it was too late to limit warming below catastrophic levels, that would be one thing and we scientists would be faithful to that. But science doesn’t say that."

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/27/climatologist-michael-e-mann-doomism-climate-crisis-interview

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #277 - Aug 21^st, 2022 at 2:55pm

lee wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 1:14pm:

Michael E Mann of "hockeystick" "fame". Climate scientist

"Another new front in the new climate war is what you call “doomism”. What do you mean by that?
Doom-mongering has overtaken denial as a threat and as a tactic. Inactivists know that if people believe there is nothing you can do, they are led down a path of disengagement. They unwittingly do the bidding of fossil fuel interests by giving up.

What is so pernicious about this is that it seeks to weaponise environmental progressives who would otherwise be on the frontline demanding change. These are folk of good intentions and good will, but they become disillusioned or depressed and they fall into despair. But “too late” narratives are invariably based on a misunderstanding of science. Many of the prominent doomist narratives – [Jonathan] Franzen, David Wallace-Wells, the Deep Adaptation movement – can be traced back to a false notion that an Arctic methane bomb will cause runaway warming and extinguish all life on earth within 10 years. This is completely wrong. There is no science to support that."

"If the science objectively demonstrated it was too late to limit warming below catastrophic levels, that would be one thing and we scientists would be faithful to that. But science doesn’t say that."

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/27/climatologist-michael-e-mann-doomism-climate-crisis-interview

A consensus on an AGW-CO2 climate change emergency is not the same as positing a real irreversible doomsday scenario.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #278 - Aug 21^st, 2022 at 3:14pm thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 2:55pm: A consensus on an AGW-CO2 climate change emergency is not the same as positing a real irreversible doomsday scenario. Oh, A Clayton's climate emergency, a climate emergency when you don't have a climate emergency.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #279 - Aug 21^st, 2022 at 3:37pm

lee wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 3:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 2:55pm:

A consensus on an AGW-CO2 climate change emergency is not the same as positing a real irreversible doomsday scenario.

Oh, A Clayton's climate emergency, a climate emergency when you don't have a climate emergency. Grin

From your article:

"But “too late” narratives are invariably based on a misunderstanding of science".

Whereas recognition we must exit fossils ASAP is based on science (according to climate scientists, who you reject).

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #280 - Aug 21^st, 2022 at 4:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 3:37pm:

Whereas recognition we must exit fossils ASAP is based on science (according to climate scientists, who you reject).

Really where have I rejected them? Also please explain which "climate emergencies"?

The poor need cheap reliable electricity. That means if you are using unreliables you need cheap reliable storage. Even the rabid SMH recognises the Snowy 2 is a white elephant.

"Five years on, Snowy 2.0 emerges as a $10 billion white elephant"

"The nation-building vision was for a big battery to be added to the Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric Scheme. It was to be completed in four years (that is, by last year) at a cost of $2 billion without any taxpayer subsidy, bring down electricity prices, generate renewable energy and incur minimal environmental impact on Kosciuszko National Park.

Inspiring stuff. But not one of these grand claims has turned out to be true. Worse, Australian taxpayers and NSW electricity consumers will be up for billions of dollars in subsidies and increased electricity costs, all while Kosciuszko is trashed. Let’s have a quick recap.

Snowy Hydro now expects completion in 10 years, not four, by 2026. Some experts consider even this extended timeframe to be optimistic. Construction of the tunnels is running at least six months behind the latest schedule and the transmission connection is unlikely to be built by 2026 anyway. The all-up cost has increased at least five-fold, to $10 billion-plus, as energy experts warned the Prime Minister and the then NSW premier in 2020.

The underground power station and tunnels alone will cost more than $6 billion, and Snowy Hydro avoids mentioning the transmission connections to Sydney – $4 billion-plus for HumeLink and the Sydney ring – and to Victoria. To make matters worse, Snowy Hydro refuses to contribute to these transmission works, leaving it to electricity consumers to pick up the tab. Transmission tariffs in NSW will increase by more than 50 per cent if the NSW government allows Snowy Hydro to get its way, based on analysis in a Victoria Energy Policy Centre report."

https://www.smh.com.au/national/five-years-on-snowy-2-0-emerges-as-a-10-billion-...

Wow. That will make electricity really cheap. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #281 - Aug 21^st, 2022 at 6:14pm

lee wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 4:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 3:37pm:

Whereas recognition we must exit fossils ASAP is based on science (according to climate scientists, who you reject).

Really where have I rejected them?

You claim the IPPC reports are contradictory, and hence no need to take action re AGW/man-made CO2 emissions.

Quote:

Also please explain which "climate emergencies"?

You know: the negative consequences of >2 degrees of warming, if we keep burning fossils.

Quote:

The poor need cheap reliable electricity. That means if you are using unreliables you need cheap reliable storage. Even the rabid SMH recognises the Snowy 2 is a white elephant.

"Five years on, Snowy 2.0 emerges as a $10 billion white elephant"

"The nation-building vision was for a big battery to be added to the Snowy Mountains Hydro-Electric Scheme. It was to be completed in four years (that is, by last year) at a cost of $2 billion without any taxpayer subsidy, bring down electricity prices, generate renewable energy and incur minimal environmental impact on Kosciuszko National Park.

Inspiring stuff. But not one of these grand claims has turned out to be true. Worse, Australian taxpayers and NSW electricity consumers will be up for billions of dollars in subsidies and increased electricity costs, all while Kosciuszko is trashed. Let’s have a quick recap.

Snowy Hydro now expects completion in 10 years, not four, by 2026. Some experts consider even this extended timeframe to be optimistic. Construction of the tunnels is running at least six months behind the latest schedule and the transmission connection is unlikely to be built by 2026 anyway. The all-up cost has increased at least five-fold, to $10 billion-plus, as energy experts warned the Prime Minister and the then NSW premier in 2020.

The underground power station and tunnels alone will cost more than $6 billion, and Snowy Hydro avoids mentioning the transmission connections to Sydney – $4 billion-plus for HumeLink and the Sydney ring – and to Victoria. To make matters worse, Snowy Hydro refuses to contribute to these transmission works, leaving it to electricity consumers to pick up the tab. Transmission tariffs in NSW will increase by more than 50 per cent if the NSW government allows Snowy Hydro to get its way, based on analysis in a Victoria Energy Policy Centre report."

https://www.smh.com.au/national/five-years-on-snowy-2-0-emerges-as-a-10-billion-...

Wow. That will make electricity really cheap. Roll Eyes

It will, if the govt. nationalizes the entire scheme including renewables to power it, and funds connection to an upgraded national grid; and authorizes Lowe to fund it ...he can create money out of thin air..magic....

That's the problem of course, the private sector are opposing every step of the way, with their stupid carbon taxes and desire for profits. The scheme is too important to be subject to the whims of private sector greed.

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« Last Edit: Aug 21^st, 2022 at 6:20pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #282 - Aug 21^st, 2022 at 6:30pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 6:14pm:

You know: the negative consequences of >2 degrees of warming, if we keep burning fossils.

What are they? Enumerate them. Or are you just a closet alarmist with no clue. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 6:14pm:

It will, if the govt. nationalizes the entire scheme including renewables to power it, and funds connection to an upgraded national grid; and authorizes Lowe to fund it ...he can create money out of thin air..magic....

Ah only if we have all that fiat money and no inflation. Grin

.thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 6:14pm:

That's the problem of course, the private sector are opposing every step of the way, with their stupid carbon taxes and desire for profits. The scheme is too important to be subject to the whims of private sector greed.

And so we should bow down to government greed. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #283 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 1:47am

lee wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 6:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 6:14pm:

You know: the negative consequences of >2 degrees of warming, if we keep burning fossils.

What are they? Enumerate them. Or are you just a closet alarmist with no clue. Roll Eyes

I''ll let the scientists who you reject do that.

Quote:

Ah only if we have all that fiat money and no inflation. Grin

Inflation is a monetary sham. Resources management, not money management by greedy private financiers, is the issue at hand.

Quote:

And so we should bow down to government greed. Grin

You've got it back to front, as usual. Resources mobilization by government on behalf of the general welfare is not greed; funding government via private financiers demanding interest on their loans is private greed.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #284 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 11:25am

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 1:47am:

I''ll let the scientists who you reject do that.

So you don't know. Grin

I'll help you out -

Droughts?

Floods?

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 1:47am:

You've got it back to front, as usual. Resources mobilization by government on behalf of the general welfare is not greed; funding government via private financiers demanding interest on their loans is private greed.

Oh yes the free money. No-one ever has to pay. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #285 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 12:09pm

lee wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 11:25am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 1:47am:

I''ll let the scientists who you reject do that.

So you don't know. Grin

I'll help you out -

Droughts?

Floods?

Yeh... that's what they say, thanks.

For my part, I just want the private fossil industry price gougers to be given the flick, we don't need them anymore.

Quote:

Oh yes the free money. No-one ever has to pay.

Correct, you are learning fast ... Tongue

Just remember: it's resources which the government can buy, which is the issue, not money issued by greedy private usurers.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #286 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 1:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 12:09pm:

Yeh... that's what they say, thanks.

Seems that that is not so.

"Floods - In summary there is low confidence in the human influence on the changes in high river flows on the global scale. Confidence is in general low in attributing changes in the probability or magnitude of flood events to human influence because of a limited number of studies and differences in the results of these studies, and large modelling uncertainties.

IPCC AR6 WG1 11.5.4"

Oh dear "low confidence" .

"Droughts - There is medium confidencet in the ability of ESMs to simulate trends and anomalies in precipitation deficits and AED, and also medium confidence in the ability of ESMs and hydrological models to simulate trends and anomalies in soil moisture and streamflow deficits, on global and regional scales

IPCC AR6 WG1 11.6.3.6"

So only medium confidence in the models, nothing there about things being worse looking at actual data.

So overall there is low confidence in a global climate emergency.

.Thanks for playing.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #287 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 2:02pm

lee wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 1:50pm:

IPCC AR6 WG1 11.6.3.6"

....
So only medium confidence in the models, nothing there about things being worse looking at actual data.

So overall there is low confidence in a global climate emergency.

Low confidence... so why is Guterres saying there is an emergency...and we have to drastically reduce meat consumption, as well as fossils, to boot..

Personally I think it's a great excuse to give the greedy fossil price-gougers the flick.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #288 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 2:39pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 2:02pm:

Low confidence... so why is Guterres saying there is an emergency..

Oh I thought you only looked at climate scientists not left wing functionaries. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 2:02pm:

and we have to drastically reduce meat consumption, as well as fossils, to boot..

Another lie. Cows belch methane. Methane rapidly devolves to H2Oand CO2. However cows like humans are a part of the carbon cycle. Herbivores consume greens that have sequestered CO2. And remember bison (also herbivores) once numbered
30 - 50 million. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #289 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:19pm

lee wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 2:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 2:02pm:

Low confidence... so why is Guterres saying there is an emergency..

Oh I thought you only looked at climate scientists not left wing functionaries. Grin

The UN (and Guterres) is not LW**, that's why it doesn't/can't eradicate war and poverty (via instituting effective international law), against the "small government" (but big gun) RW mantra.

** LW: government intervention in private sector neoliberal markets. The UN fails completely in this regard.

Quote:

Another lie. Cows belch methane. Methane rapidly devolves to H2Oand CO2. However cows like humans are a part of the carbon cycle. Herbivores consume greens that have sequestered CO2. And remember bison (also herbivores) once numbered
30 - 50 million. Roll Eyes

Er..methane is many more times as powerful as CO2 as a hothouse gas ... and hence its effect on global warming (if you believe AGW, that is).

Gutteres merely follows the advice of the IPCC and other researchers.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #290 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:47pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:19pm:

The UN (and Guterres) is not LW**, that's why it doesn't/can't eradicate war and poverty (via instituting effective international law), against the "small government" (but big gun) RW mantra.

** LW: government intervention in private sector neoliberal markets. The UN fails completely in this regard.

The UN fails. You should have stopped there.

Guterres - Political party:Socialist

Wiki.

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:19pm:

Er..methane is many more times as powerful as CO2 as a hothouse gas

No it is not. It is measured in PPB(illion) not PPM(illion). And it is not a Hothouse Gas.

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:19pm:

Gutteres merely follows the advice of the IPCC and other researchers.

So who are these unknown researchers who have told Guterres the misinformation about Floods and Droughts? Grin

And are ytou getting the government on board with exterminating all termites the largest source of methane?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #291 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:06pm

lee wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:47pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:19pm:

The UN (and Guterres) is not LW**, that's why it doesn't/can't eradicate war and poverty (via instituting effective international law), against the "small government" (but big gun) RW mantra.

** LW: government intervention in private sector neoliberal markets. The UN fails completely in this regard.

The UN fails. You should have stopped there.

Guterres - Political party:Socialist

Wiki.

Of course the UN attracts socialists, but survival of the fittest ideologues incapacitated it from the start, when the great powers in the UNSC demanded the power of veto.

Quote:

No it is not. It is measured in PPB(illion) not PPM(illion). And it is not a Hothouse Gas.

(google)

"Methane is more than 25 times as potent as carbon dioxide at trapping heat in the atmosphere. Over the last two centuries, methane concentrations in the atmosphere have more than doubled, largely due to human-related activities.9 June 2022".

Quote:

So who are these unknown researchers who have told Guterres the misinformation about Floods and Droughts? Grin

The ones in the IPCC who you say are contradicted by others in the IPCC .....

Quote:

And are ytou getting the government on board with exterminating all termites the largest source of methane?

(google)

"Globally, it is estimated that termites are responsible for about one to three per cent of all methane emissions"

The government obviously has bigger fish to fry, before worrying about termites.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #292 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:41pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:06pm:

Of course the UN attracts socialists, but survival of the fittest ideologues incapacitated it from the start, when the great powers in the UNSC demanded the power of veto.

That wasn't what you originally said. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:06pm:

"Methane is more than 25 times as potent as carbon dioxide at trapping heat in the atmosphere. Over the last two centuries, methane concentrations in the atmosphere have more than doubled, largely due to human-related activities.9 June 2022".

Yes molecule for molecule. 2021 - 15.3 parts per billion. And of course as it approaches saturation its effect diminishes. Rice is the largest source of methane. Now you want to starve poor villagers. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:06pm:

The ones in the IPCC who you say are contradicted by others in the IPCC .....

Now you are getting confused. "Gutteres merely follows the advice of the IPCC and other researchers." So IPCC Band Other IPCC Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:06pm:

"Globally, it is estimated that termites are responsible for about one to three per cent of all methane emissions"

Yes. And then there are wetlands, mangroves all types of things. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:06pm:

The government obviously has bigger fish to fry, before worrying about termites.

Oh no the government frying fish? Shouldn't that be in the oceans boiling away? Grin

"That means once the planet gets warmer and warmer then the oceans begin to evaporate, and water vapour is a very strong greenhouse gas, even more powerful than carbon dioxide, so you can get to a situation where it just… the oceans will begin to boil and the planet becomes so hot that the ocean ends up in the atmosphere and that happened to Venus. That’s why Venus no longer has carbon in its surface. It’s atmosphere is made up of… basically of carbon dioxide because it had a runaway greenhouse effect."

James Hansen the father of doomsday. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #293 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 9:22pm

lee wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:41pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:06pm:

Of course the UN attracts socialists, but survival of the fittest ideologues incapacitated it from the start, when the great powers in the UNSC demanded the power of veto.

That wasn't what you originally said. Roll Eyes

You brought up socialism. I exposed YOUR evil survival of the fittest ideology, which has crippled the UN.

Quote:

Yes molecule for molecule. 2021 - 15.3 parts per billion. And of course as it approaches saturation its effect diminishes. Rice is the largest source of methane. Now you want to starve poor villagers. Roll Eyes

"Beef and lamb, in particular, have much higher greenhouse gas emissions than chicken,pork, or plant-based alternatives."

Quote:

Now you are getting confused.

No , that would be you....

Quote:

"Gutteres merely follows the advice of the IPCC and other researchers." So IPCC Band Other IPCC Grin

Wrong conclusion, as always. Guterres is reporting to the world the consensus opinions of the IPCC.

Quote:

Yes. And then there are wetlands, mangroves all types of things. Grin

..producing less than 1% each, while: "Over 40% of energy-related CO2 emissions are due to the burning of fossil fuels for electricity generation."

Not to mention the poisonous filth from burning fossils, which you absurdly deny. ("Show me one death" ...)

Quote:

......your pathetic rejoinder to "the government has more important fish to fry" is noted.

[quote]"That means once the planet gets warmer and warmer then the oceans begin to evaporate, and water vapour is a very strong greenhouse gas, even more powerful than carbon dioxide, so you can get to a situation where it just… the oceans will begin to boil and the planet becomes so hot that the ocean ends up in the atmosphere and that happened to Venus. That’s why Venus no longer has carbon in its surface. It’s atmosphere is made up of… basically of carbon dioxide because it had a runaway greenhouse effect."

James Hansen the father of doomsday. Grin

so...the government won't have to dry fish after all.

Good.

(see..I can play that game, too...)

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #294 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 12:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 9:22pm:

You brought up socialism.

And you said it didn't exist in the UN.
lee wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:47pm:

thegreatdivide wrote Yesterday at 1:19pm:
The UN (and Guterres) is not LW**, that's why it doesn't/can't eradicate war and poverty (via instituting effective international law), against the "small government" (but big gun) RW mantra.

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 9:22pm:

"Beef and lamb, in particular, have much higher greenhouse gas emissions than chicken,pork, or plant-based alternatives."

And yet rice is a large emitter. Why is that?

"Tropical methane emissions explain large fraction of recent changes in global atmospheric methane growth rate"

"From 2010 to 2019, the global atmospheric growth rate of CH4, inferred from ground-based measurements, varied from 5 ppb/year to nearly 13 ppb/year, with associated global mean levels increasing by 4% from 1798 to 1866 ppb. The current understanding of these global changes is incomplete, with a growing body of work exploring the role of individual sources and sinks4. This period of time coincides with the launch in 2009 of the Japanese Greenhouse gases Observing SATellite (GOSAT,5) and in 2017 of the European TROPOMI instrument6. These data have progressively provided more insight into regional emissions of CH4 and how they vary in time (e.g., refs. 7,8,9)."

"Our analysis of GOSAT CH4 column data from 2010 to 2019 shows large-scale changes in tropical CH4 emissions that explain more than 80% of the observed global atmospheric growth rate. Over this decadal period, we find that tropical Africa plays the largest role in determining the variation of tropical emissions, followed by tropical South America and India."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-28989-z

8% of the increase in the tropics? Mostly Africa. Must be all that industry and cattle there. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 9:22pm:

Wrong conclusion, as always. Guterres is reporting to the world the consensus opinions of the IPCC.

No he is not. The Science (WG1 - The Physical Science Basis) is what I quoted. If he is learning from others it is obviously not based on the Physical Science. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 9:22pm:

..producing less than 1% each, while: "Over 40% of energy-related CO2 emissions are due to the burning of fossil fuels for electricity generation."

Oh de4ar changed the argument from methane to CO2. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 9:22pm:

Not to mention the poisonous filth from burning fossils, which you absurdly deny. ("Show me one death" ...)

See you are confused. We don't burn fossils but fossil fuels. And statistical studies are not proof of anything. They ASSUME a certain number of deaths and then extrapolate that to the number of humans. If you have proof shoiw it. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 9:22pm:

so...the government won't have to dry fish after all.

Very good. So tell me when this ocean boiling away is going to occur. And his quote on Venus - Can you tell us the difference in Air pressure between Earth and Venus? How about Mars? How about CO2 for both? Can you tell us what air pressure does to temperature?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #295 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 1:18pm

lee wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 12:24pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 9:22pm:

You brought up socialism.

And you said it didn't exist in the UN.

And I subsequently explained what I meant by "not existing in the UN", when I noted:

" I exposed YOUR evil survival of the fittest ideology, which has crippled the UN.

Quote:

And yet rice is a large emitter. Why is that?

Not large in comparison to meat production; priorities, you know.

Quote:

"Tropical methane emissions explain large fraction of recent changes in global atmospheric methane growth rate"

You mean 90% of 1% of total greenhouse emissions into the atmosphere, most of which are due to burning fossils.

Quote:

No he is not. The Science (WG1 - The Physical Science Basis) is what I quoted. If he is learning from others it is obviously not based on the Physical Science. Roll Eyes

You better inform the IPCC who is informing Guterres

Quote:

Oh de4ar changed the argument from methane to CO2. Grin

er... greenhouse gases are the issue..... for climate scientists, that is; I'm interested in cheap state-funded renewable electricity for all (from sun and wind).

Quote:

See you are confused. We don't burn fossils but fossil fuels.

Now you are being deliberately fraudulent, (or thick, like typical conservatives reading the law to the letter, to divert from or avoid debate). We covered that long ago, fraud.

Quote:

And statistical studies are not proof of anything. They ASSUME a certain number of deaths and then extrapolate that to the number of humans. If you have proof shoiw it. Roll Eyes

Statistical studies can show correlations which advise action. Lock yourself in a closed shed with the car engine running, to discover for yourself the effects of burning fossils...)

Quote:

Very good. So tell me when this ocean boiling away is going to occur.

Not my narrative, didn't you know; you'll have to ask him. .....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #296 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 1:58pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 1:18pm:

And I subsequently explained what I meant by "not existing in the UN", when I noted:

" I exposed YOUR evil survival of the fittest ideology, which has crippled the UN.

So it both is and isn't LW. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 1:18pm:

Not large in comparison to meat production; priorities, you know.

"The amount of methane produced each year by wetlands, seas, and other natural phenomena is on average of 367 million tonnes (MT/Yr). But the rice cultivation is about 30 MT/Yr. At the same time, on average of 340 MT of methane is emitted each year due to other human interventions."

https://www.ofai.org/methane-and-rice-cultivation

"Estimates of methane emissions are subject to a high degree of uncertainty, but the most recent comprehensive estimate suggests that annual global methane emissions are around 570 million tonnes (Mt). This includes emissions from natural sources (around 40% of emissions), and those originating from human activity (the remaining 60% - known as anthropogenic emissions)."

https://www.iea.org/reports/methane-tracker-2020

"Across the globe, livestock account for about 14% of all GHG emissions (source)."

https://medium.com/climate-conscious/methane-from-cattle-8d2251234805

Wow. So many estimates of total methane emissions. Rice 30Mt/year out of 570Mt or 714Mt. And then of course the natural ocean seeps which haven't been quantified.

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 1:18pm:

You mean 90% of 1% of total greenhouse emissions into the atmosphere, most of which are due to burning fossils.

So 90% of 1% = 0.009%. Grin

And they went up when we had Los Ninos.
You are also wrong about the total green house emissions into the atmosphere. The IPCC says that the ratio is about 95% natural and 5% anthro. CO2 has gone up about 32% since the LIA. Tell me how a 5% component can have a 32% effect. CO2 has the same properties whether natural or anthro.

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 1:18pm:

You better inform the IPCC who is informing Guterres

No it is only you who are sure who is informing Guterres. Stop lying. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 1:18pm:

er... greenhouse gases are the issue..... for climate scientists, that is; I'm interested in cheap state-funded renewable electricity for all (from sun and wind).

And you have shown your "knowledge" is at best abysmal. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #297 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 2:24pm

lee wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 1:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 1:18pm:

And I subsequently explained what I meant by "not existing in the UN", when I noted:

" I exposed YOUR evil survival of the fittest ideology, which has crippled the UN.

So it both is and isn't LW. Grin

Difficult for a 'black and white' conservative literalist like you to comprehend, I know....

The UNUDHR - is 'socialist', but the UN is full of RW survival of the fittest ideologues like you.

Quote:

Wow. So many estimates of total methane emissions. Rice 30Mt/year out of 570Mt or 714Mt. And then of course the natural ocean seeps which haven't been quantified.

"Carbon dioxide is widely reported as the most important anthropogenic greenhouse gas because it currently accounts for the greatest portion of the warming associated with human activities."

You know...the green -house gases we can do something about.

Quote:

So 90% of 1% = 0.009%. Grin

And they went up when we had Los Ninos.
You are also wrong about the total green house emissions into the atmosphere. The IPCC says that the ratio is about 95% natural and 5% anthro. CO2 has gone up about 32% since the LIA. Tell me how a 5% component can have a 32% effect. CO2 has the same properties whether natural or anthro.

refuted by the bolded paragraph, above.

Quote:

No it is only you who are sure who is informing Guterres. Stop lying. Roll Eyes

https://unric.org/en/guterres-the-ipcc-report-is-a-code-red-for-humanity/

Guterres: "The IPCC Report is a code red for humanity"

I reject your forthcoming apology for the 'lying" slur, by the way...

Quote:

And you have shown your "knowledge" is at best abysmal. Grin

Maybe, but you have confirmed you are a RW survival of the fittest fraud, albeit hopefully with a brain cell still capable of deciding against the fossil-burning experiment I suggested...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #298 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 3:03pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 2:24pm:

Difficult for a 'black and white' conservative literalist like you to comprehend, I know....

The UNUDHR - is 'socialist', but the UN is full of RW survival of the fittest ideologues like you.

\
With socialists at the top of the food chain. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 2:24pm:

Carbon dioxide is widely reported as the most important anthropogenic greenhouse gas because it currently accounts for the greatest portion of the warming associated with human activities."

It has not been "accounted" as a cause of warming. Correlation is not causation. If ir were CO2, and going back to what I described about Venus and Mars why with about 95% CO2 each, one hot and the other cold? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 2:24pm:

refuted by the bolded paragraph, above.

You have refuted nothing. And you don't understand you have refuted nothing. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 2:24pm:

https://unric.org/en/guterres-the-ipcc-report-is-a-code-red-for-
humanity/

Guterres: "The IPCC Report is a code red for humanity"

But I showed that according to the IPCC it is not a "code red for humanity". That report that he was talking about was The Physical Science Basis which was released in 2021.So how did he get from "low confidence" and "medium confidence" to "Code Red".

I guess it is because the UN wants to control the narrative. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 2:24pm:

Maybe, but you have confirmed you are a RW survival of the fittest fraud, albeit hopefully with a brain cell still capable of deciding against the fossil-burning experiment I suggested...

That fossil fuel "experiment" will show I died of heatstroke? Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #299 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 4:44pm

lee wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 3:03pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/297#297 date=1661228672]
With socialists at the top of the food chain. Grin

Reduced to socialists begging CIA/Pentagon gangsters to control their vicious survival of the fittest instincts, in the age of MAD.

Quote:

It has not been "accounted" as a cause of warming. Correlation is not causation.

Already addressed, correlation begs action.

Quote:

You have refuted nothing. And you don't understand you have refuted nothing. Grin

Refuted above...eg, in geological time, high CO2 levels correlated with high sea levels, might be smart to act on CO2 emissions.

Quote:

But I showed that according to the IPCC it is not a "code red for humanity". That report that he was talking about was The Physical Science Basis which was released in 2021.So how did he get from "low confidence" and "medium confidence" to "Code Red".

By reporting what the IPCC told him.

Quote:

I guess it is because the UN wants to control the narrative. Roll Eyes

No; the IPCC wants to control the narrative:

(from the link)

“The alarm bells are deafening, and the evidence is irrefutable: greenhouse gas emissions from fossil fuel burning and deforestation are choking our planet and putting billions of people at immediate risk,” the Secretary-General says in a statement".

"According to the latest report by the IPCC Working Group 1 released today scientists are observing changes in the Earth’s climate in every region and across the whole climate system. Many of the changes observed in the climate are unprecedented in thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years, and some of the changes already set in motion – such as continued sea level rise – are irreversible over hundreds to thousands of years.

However, strong and sustained reductions in emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) and other greenhouse gases would limit climate change. While benefits for air quality would come quickly, it could take 20-30 years to see global temperatures stabilize, according to the IPCC Working Group I report, Climate Change 2021: the Physical Science Basis".

Quote:

That fossil fuel "experiment" will show I died of heatstroke?

No; from CO poisoning.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #300 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 5:06pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 4:44pm:

Already addressed, correlation begs action.

Rubbish. People drown in water less than 30cm deep. Get rid of all water. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 4:44pm:

.eg, in geological time, high CO2 levels correlated with high sea levels, might be smart to act on CO2 emissions.

You do know that the Grenland ice cores disagree? That the SLR "acceleration" is purely a function of the satellite "data", The satellites that have altimerter accuracy if +/-33mm, and somehow derive a signal of 3mm. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 4:44pm:

By reporting what the IPCC told him.

You mean the IPCC told him porkies? Naughty IPCC. Grin

Edit: the IPCC AR6 says nothing about "choking". Why is that. You said he got it from the scientists, right? right?

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 4:44pm:

No; the IPCC wants to control the narrative:

"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is an independent body founded under the auspices of the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) and the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP). "

https://unfccc.int/topics/science/workstreams/cooperation-with-the-ipcc/backgrou...

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 4:44pm:

(from the link)

I wonder why they didn't tell of the low and medium confidence? Wink

Edit2 :And if it across the "whole climate system" why is there that pesky trouble with Floods and Drought?

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 4:44pm:

No; from CO poisoning.

CO is not a greenhouse gas. I thought you were all about climate. CO kills. It can be found in the toxicology reports on the deceased. There have been no such results found in autopsies for death by CO2.

Tell us when you find something specific about AGW in the AR6 report. Not alarmist generalisations.

Why is it you don't want to discuss Mars and Venus CO2? CO2 causes cold or heat? Wink

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #301 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm

lee wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 5:06pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 4:44pm:

Already addressed, correlation begs action.

Rubbish. People drown in water less than 30cm deep. Get rid of all water. Grin

Brain dead comment, pass.

Quote:

You do know that the Grenland ice cores disagree? That the SLR "acceleration" is purely a function of the satellite "data", The satellites that have altimerter accuracy if +/-33mm, and somehow derive a signal of 3mm. Grin

https://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/372266/09_Glikson....

Dr Andrew Glikson
Earth and paleoclimate scientist
Australian National University

"The unacceptable consequences of a continuation of human business-as-usual inertia in terms of extreme weather events—droughts, fires, cyclones and sea
level rise—require urgent deep cuts in carbon gas emissions and fast track development of alternative energy utilities and carbon down-draw technology
aimed at reduction of atmospheric CO2-e levels to below 350 ppm."

Quote:

You mean the IPCC told him porkies? Naughty IPCC. Grin

Yes, that's what I mean

Quote:

Edit: the IPCC AR6 says nothing about "choking". Why is that. You said he got it from the scientists, right? right?

It's called salesmanship....

Quote:

"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) is an independent body founded under the auspices of the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) and the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP). "

Correct. Guterrez is merely the spokesman.

Quote:

I wonder why they didn't tell of the low and medium confidence? Wink

Edit2 :And if it across the "whole climate system" why is there that pesky trouble with Floods and Drought?

see Dr. Glikson's report, above.

Quote:

CO is not a greenhouse gas. I thought you were all about climate. CO kills.

No, I'm equally, if not more about health-destroying filth from fossil combustion.

Quote:

Tell us when you find something specific about AGW in the AR6 report. Not alarmist generalisations.

I leave that to the scientists like Glikson.

Quote:

Why is it you don't want to discuss Mars and Venus CO2? CO2 causes cold or heat? Wink

I'm much more interested in cheap energy for all on planet earth, from sun and wind ASAP, perhaps unless/until fusion power is a reality.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #302 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:36pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

https://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/372266/09_Glikson....

Dr Andrew Glikson
Earth and paleoclimate scientist
Australian National University

"The unacceptable consequences of a continuation of human business-as-usual inertia in terms of extreme weather events—droughts, fires, cyclones and sea
level rise—require urgent deep cuts in carbon gas emissions and fast track development of alternative energy utilities and carbon down-draw technology
aimed at reduction of atmospheric CO2-e levels to below 350 ppm."

ACT government submission, 2009

How many coal fired power stations has china built since Mr Glikson's submission?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #303 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:48pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

Brain dead comment, pass.

Just like yours. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

https://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/372266/09_Glikson....

Dr Andrew Glikson
Earth and paleoclimate scientist
Australian National University

"The unacceptable consequences of a continuation of human business-as-usual inertia in terms of extreme weather events—droughts, fires, cyclones and sea level rise—require urgent deep cuts in carbon gas emissions and fast track development of alternative energy utilities and carbon down-draw technology
aimed at reduction of atmospheric CO2-e levels to below 350 ppm."

Oh dear. Appeal to authority ... Fail.And nowhere does he give an estimation of SLR, so you are just mindlessly bloviating. What isn't said is that he is a buddy of Michael E Mann of "hockeystick" infamy. The one the IPCC only used once because it was so shoddy. Grin

You remember how the IPCC says RCP8.5 both is and isn't "business-as-usual". Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

lee wrote Yesterday at 3:06pm:
thegreatdivide wrote Yesterday at 2:44pm:
Already addressed, correlation begs action.

Rubbish. People drown in water less than 30cm deep. Get rid of all water. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Brain dead comment, pass.

Quote:
You do know that the Grenland ice cores disagree? That the SLR "acceleration" is purely a function of the satellite "data", The satellites that have altimerter accuracy if +/-33mm, and somehow derive a signal of 3mm. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

https://www.parliament.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/372266/09_Glikson....

Dr Andrew Glikson
Earth and paleoclimate scientist
Australian National University

"The unacceptable consequences of a continuation of human business-as-usual inertia in terms of extreme weather events—droughts, fires, cyclones and sea
level rise—require urgent deep cuts in carbon gas emissions and fast track development of alternative energy utilities and carbon down-draw technology
aimed at reduction of atmospheric CO2-e levels to below 350 ppm."

Quote:
You mean the IPCC told him porkies? Naughty IPCC.

Yes, that's what I mean

That shows it wasn't what you mean. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

It's called salesmanship....

It is called lying. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

Guterrez is merely the spokesman.

A spokesman who can't even tell the message straight. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

see Dr. Glikson's report, above.

Why where does he tell us about the "whole climate system"? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

No, I'm equally, if not more about health-destroying filth from fossil combustion.

Has it destroyed your health? Perhaps that is why you feel strongly. Although you don't seem to care about impoverished villagers burning dung etc. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

I leave that to the scientists like Glikson.

So you don't know and believe everything a scientist tells you. Roll Eyes

Like the recent report that earth is the hottest it has been for 10,000 years and yet stumps still show up regularly 100km above the snowline. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

I'm much more interested in cheap energy for all on planet earth, from sun and wind ASAP, perhaps unless/until fusion power is a reality.

It is only "cheap" energy if you have a stable "cheap" backup. e:

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #304 - Aug 25^th, 2022 at 11:23am

A terrific analysis

Labor Living In Cloud Cuckoo Land On Energy Policy Future
Written by Scott Hargreaves 20 August 2022

The Albanese government’s energy policy and AEMO’s latest plan achieve that rare feat of being both unrealistic and unaffordable, while also making the system less reliable.
...
From an engineering standpoint, each additional renewable energy project reduces system-wide reliability. Companies cannot commercially operate base-load power stations, which need to run for 70–80 per cent of the time, when wholesale power prices are so often negative.

The reason prices are negative is because renewable energy generates spasmodically depending on the vagaries of the weather. This is why wholesale electricity prices increased over 85 per cent when the 1600MW Hazelwood power station in Victoria closed with six months’ notice in 2017.

As coal-fired baseload generation has been under increasing pressure, gas-fired generation has supplied the peak load and covered for renewables when weather conditions take them out of the market. But as Australians have witnessed this winter, exploration and development of gas supplies have not kept up with demand for energy.

It is also of concern that the Albanese government’s move to legislate emission-reduction targets will hand further legal ammunition to activists to use the courts to block new coal and gas projects, further reducing the sources of the only fuels that keep the lights on.

...
Across the five regions of the NEM, households would face average annual energy bill increases of between 95 and 125 per cent, with the average annual bill in NSW rising up to $2600 a year.

Renewable energy supporters suggest batteries and pumped hydro can be the source of back-up power. Yet grid-scale batteries remain small.

If it ran at maximum capacity, the vaunted 150MW battery in South Australia could supply 5 per cent of the state’s peak demand for just one hour. Meanwhile, Snowy 2.0’s cost overruns and lack of answers on transmission capacity is making it a joke. Total projected costs have blown out beyond $12bn.

There are also further challenges to the renewable energy generators’ social licence to operate that AEMO is so often concerned about.

About 90 per cent of solar panels installed in Australia come from China. Polysilicon is a critical part of solar panels, and 45 per cent of global polysilicon comes from the Uighur region in China.

According to a 2021 report by a team at Sheffield Hallam University, all manufacturers of polysilicon in the Uighur region have either used forced labour or been supplied raw materials by companies that have.

There is also the emerging waste problem of how to dispose of old solar panels.

A 2021 article in Harvard Business Review, The Dark Side of Solar Panels, highlighted this issue, noting that “the economics of solar – so bright-seeming from the vantage point of 2021 – would darken quickly as the industry sinks under the weight of its own trash”. The article notes there has also been no serious discussion about the recycling of wind turbine blades.
...
Germany thought it had a plan when it was retiring both coal and nuclear while building renewables. However, we now know the system only worked at all because of the gas supplied by Russia. As Vladimir Putin turns the tap on and off, there has been a scramble towards something more realistic.

Back in Australia, it would have been better if the former Coalition government had not let Scott Morrison succumb to Boris Johnson’s fantasy of a global agreement on net zero. However, we at least now have the opportunity to avoid Europe’s fate through exploring nuclear and prolonging the life of coal-fired power stations.

Proponents of renewable energy raise objections that nuclear will take too long and will require governments to effectively underwrite construction. That is, they demonise nuclear energy for requiring governments to take the same supportive and long-term approach the renewables lobby has been demanding, and enjoying, for decades.

The electricity market was officially suspended for the first time in June and is effectively being nationalised on a command and control model.

When Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen occasionally hops behind the rhetorical wall of “the market” just to take potshots at nuclear energy, it is proof of his rhetorical agility, but not his credibility.

Despite its title, the government’s Rewiring the Nation is not in fact a plan. A workable plan would not allow reliable capacity to be diminished until a dependable future solution arrives.
Sensible people would not sell their brand new car and commit to driving an unreliable wreck that may or may not start, while waiting a decade for a newer model that may or may not arrive. But that is what Australia is doing.

The modern electricity grid, which has been developed over the past century, provides a remarkably high level of reliable supply. What Australians must face is that it is about to get a whole lot more unreliable. This is not an energy transition, it is a regression.

https://ipa.org.au/ipa-today/labor-living-in-cloud-cuckoo-land-on-energy-policy-...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #305 - Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm

lee wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 6:48pm:

That shows it wasn't what you mean. Grin

The fact is Guterres is reporting the IPCC consensus.

Quote:

It is called lying. Roll Eyes

Not when it's a consensus (unlike the junk advertising your vicious neoliberal economy relies on for its ill-begotten profits.

Quote:

A spokesman who can't even tell the message straight. Roll Eyes

The IPCC message is we have to exit fossils ASAP., which is what Gutteres is saying,.

Quote:

Why where does he tell us about the "whole climate system"? Roll Eyes

He doesn't follow your version of science. .

Quote:

Has it destroyed your health? Perhaps that is why you feel strongly.

Of course it's those whose health has been compromised.

Quote:

Although you don't seem to care about impoverished villagers burning dung etc. Roll Eyes

and the smoke in confined kitchens ruins their health also.

Quote:

So you don't know and believe everything a scientist tells you. Roll Eyes

I go for the IPCC consensus.

Quote:

Like the recent report that earth is the hottest it has been for 10,000 years and yet stumps still show up regularly 100km above the snowline. Roll Eyes

You better re write that....Everest is only c.9 kms high.

Quote:

It is only "cheap" energy if you have a stable "cheap" backup. e:

Correct. According to an ANU study, there are sufficient pumped hydro sites to achieve stability.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #306 - Aug 25^th, 2022 at 4:20pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

The fact is Guterres is reporting the IPCC consensus.

No he is not. The IPCC Consensus is low confidence for increased flood and medium confidence for droughts. It is in the report. The report shows the consensus position. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

Not when it's a consensus (unlike the junk advertising your vicious neoliberal economy relies on for its ill-begotten profits.

See above.

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

The IPCC message is we have to exit fossils ASAP., which is what Gutteres is saying,.

The IPCC message is not about a "Coed Red" across the "whole climates system". Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

He doesn't follow your version of science. .

That is the IPCC version of the science as I showed. I will repeat irt for you.

"Floods - In summary there is low confidence in the human influence on the changes in high river flows on the global scale. Confidence is in general low in attributing changes in the probability or magnitude of flood events to human influence because of a limited number of studies and differences in the results of these studies, and large modelling uncertainties. "

IPCC AR6 WG1 11.5.4 (that's IPCC report AR6 ( The Physical Science Basis) Chapter 11 Para 5.4

"Droughts - There is medium confidence in the ability of ESMs to simulate trends and anomalies in precipitation deficits and AED, and also medium confidence in the ability of ESMs and hydrological models to simulate trends and anomalies in soil moisture and streamflow deficits, on global and regional scales"

IPCC AR6 WG1 11.6.3.6 (IPCC AR6 Chapter 11 Para 6.3.6) Roll Eyes

I will make it really easy for you.-

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/downloads/report/IPCC_AR6_WGI_Chapter11.pdf

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

Of course it's those whose health has been compromised.

So it is not your health. So you know nothing. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

and the smoke in confined kitchens ruins their health also.

Yes it does from the dung fires and lack of chimneys etc. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

I go for the IPCC consensus.

See above.

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

You better re write that....Everest is only c.9 kms high.

The snowline is not a vertical height but an angular distance as in latitude. You really are a numpty. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 1:52pm:

According to an ANU study, there are sufficient pumped hydro sites to achieve stability.

Yes and it won't cost anything and all the sites will work as described even though there has been no soil testing. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #307 - Aug 29^th, 2022 at 12:16pm

lee wrote on Aug 25^th, 2022 at 4:20pm:

The IPCC message is not about a "Coed Red" across the "whole climates system". Roll Eyes

Of course it is: the need to exit fossils ASAP - the IPCC message transmitted to Guterres - IS a "code red".

Quote:

That is the IPCC version of the science as I showed. I will repeat irt for you.

No ...that;s your version...

Quote:

So it is not your health. So you know nothing. Grin

Denial of reality.

Quote:

The snowline is not a vertical height but an angular distance as in latitude. You really are a numpty. Grin

"snowline 100 kms".....?

Quote:

Yes and it won't cost anything and all the sites will work as described even though there has been no soil testing. Grin

Correct, only a fraction of identified possible sites will be required (and the only cost is an 'opportunity cost' not a monetary cost ie, 'cost' in resources diverted to the green economy....immaterial, given we must exit fossils ASAP, even if only for reasons of human health and sustainable cheap energy for all.

Interestingly, David Pocock has made it clear he will be voting with the Greens in the Senate on climate policy; the govt won't be able to open new oil or gas fields. Good.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #308 - Aug 29^th, 2022 at 1:09pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 12:16pm:

Of course it is: the need to exit fossils ASAP - the IPCC message transmitted to Guterres - IS a "code red".

Nope. Merely Guterre3s interpretation. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 12:16pm:

No ...that;s your version...

Nope. The li9nk is to the IPCC AR6 repoirt WG1 The Physical Science Basis. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 12:16pm:

Denial of reality.

Yes we know you do. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 12:16pm:

"snowline 100 kms".....?

Yes. Snowline as a latitudinal measure say 5\ 65º N.

"Latitude is one factor which dictates the position of the snow line in different parts of the globe. On the equator, the snow line is usually found at an altitude of 15,000 feet above sea level. The position of the snow line varies as one moves away from the equator and reaches as high as 18,700 feet above sea level in the Himalayas which lie near the Tropic of Cancer. The snow line is non-existent in the Andes Mountains which lie on the Tropic of Capricorn, something which is attributed to the aridity of the area. The effect of latitude eclipses that of altitude in the position of the snow line in the earth’s Polar Regions. In the Polar Regions, the snow line is found at the sea level which is evident in the presence of ice caps.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-the-snow-line.html

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 12:16pm:

Correct, only a fraction of identified possible sites will be required (and the only cost is an 'opportunity cost' not a monetary cost ie, 'cost' in resources diverted to the green economy....immaterial, given we must exit fossils ASAP, even if only for reasons of human health and sustainable cheap energy for all.

Thank for agreeing with me that there has been no testing of the ground merely a map. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 12:16pm:

Interestingly, David Pocock has made it clear he will be voting with the Greens in the Senate on climate policy; the govt won't be able to open new oil or gas fields.

It is still a vote., And the Greens have to have the numbers. Do you think the Coalition will vote for or against Labor in this? Wink

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #309 - Aug 30^th, 2022 at 2:12pm

lee wrote on Aug 29^th, 2022 at 1:09pm:

It is still a vote., And the Greens have to have the numbers. Do you think the Coalition will vote for or against Labor in this? Wink

The Greens plus Pocock have the numbers to block Labor...unless Labor vote with the Coalition.

That should destroy Labor's already shaky primary vote, at the next election...and the 2 party duopoly as well.

A good thing, as proponents of free, clean energy render the 2 party system increasingly obsolete.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #310 - Aug 30^th, 2022 at 5:06pm thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 30^th, 2022 at 2:12pm: That should destroy Labor's already shaky primary vote, at the next election...and the 2 party duopoly as well. Or just make it a one term government.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #311 - Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:10am

One of Australia’s biggest commodity exports has surged to record levels, with the price of Newcastle coal soaring to all-time highs as miners cash in amid a deepening energy crisis in Europe.

The thermal coal rose to a new high with Newcastle futures trading above $US440 ($648) a tonne, more than doubling since the start of 2022, with Europe’s energy crisis set to worsen as Russia considers a long-term halt of gas supplies to the continent.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #312 - Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:17am

Frank wrote on Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:10am:

One of Australia’s biggest commodity exports has surged to record levels, with the price of Newcastle coal soaring to all-time highs as miners cash in amid a deepening energy crisis in Europe.

The thermal coal rose to a new high with Newcastle futures trading above $US440 ($648) a tonne, more than doubling since the start of 2022, with Europe’s energy crisis set to worsen as Russia considers a long-term halt of gas supplies to the continent.

Wow - it used to be only about $60 per tonne.

https://publicnewstime.com/news/finance/coal-the-star-performer-as-energy-crisis...

For Australia, one of our biggest commodity exports has surged to record levels as a result of the energy crisis, with the price of Newcastle coal soaring to all-time highs as miners cash in amid a deepening energy crisis in Europe. The price of thermal coal rose to a new high recently with Newcastle futures trading above $US440 ($648) a tonne, more than doubling since the start of 2022. Australian coal producers have been the market star performers year to date – with Whitehaven +225 per cent Stanmore Resources 144 per cent & Teracom up 450 per cent.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #313 - Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:27am

Bobby. wrote on Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:17am:

Frank wrote on Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:10am:

One of Australia’s biggest commodity exports has surged to record levels, with the price of Newcastle coal soaring to all-time highs as miners cash in amid a deepening energy crisis in Europe.

The thermal coal rose to a new high with Newcastle futures trading above $US440 ($648) a tonne, more than doubling since the start of 2022, with Europe’s energy crisis set to worsen as Russia considers a long-term halt of gas supplies to the continent.

Wow - it used to be only about $60 per tonne.

https://publicnewstime.com/news/finance/coal-the-star-performer-as-energy-crisis...

For Australia, one of our biggest commodity exports has surged to record levels as a result of the energy crisis, with the price of Newcastle coal soaring to all-time highs as miners cash in amid a deepening energy crisis in Europe. The price of thermal coal rose to a new high recently with Newcastle futures trading above $US440 ($648) a tonne, more than doubling since the start of 2022. Australian coal producers have been the market star performers year to date – with Whitehaven +225 per cent Stanmore Resources 144 per cent & Teracom up 450 per cent.

And all those silly bugger, PC supperannuation funds that divested from coal......

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #314 - Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:31am

Frank wrote on Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:27am:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:17am:

Frank wrote on Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:10am:

One of Australia’s biggest commodity exports has surged to record levels, with the price of Newcastle coal soaring to all-time highs as miners cash in amid a deepening energy crisis in Europe.

The thermal coal rose to a new high with Newcastle futures trading above $US440 ($648) a tonne, more than doubling since the start of 2022, with Europe’s energy crisis set to worsen as Russia considers a long-term halt of gas supplies to the continent.

Wow - it used to be only about $60 per tonne.

https://publicnewstime.com/news/finance/coal-the-star-performer-as-energy-crisis...

For Australia, one of our biggest commodity exports has surged to record levels as a result of the energy crisis, with the price of Newcastle coal soaring to all-time highs as miners cash in amid a deepening energy crisis in Europe. The price of thermal coal rose to a new high recently with Newcastle futures trading above $US440 ($648) a tonne, more than doubling since the start of 2022. Australian coal producers have been the market star performers year to date – with Whitehaven +225 per cent Stanmore Resources 144 per cent & Teracom up 450 per cent.

And all those silly bugger, PC supperannuation funds that divested from coal......

They are lunatics.
Coal has a future.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #315 - Sep 6^th, 2022 at 10:53am

Frank wrote on Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:10am:

One of Australia’s biggest commodity exports has surged to record levels, with the price of Newcastle coal soaring to all-time highs as miners cash in amid a deepening energy crisis in Europe.

The thermal coal rose to a new high with Newcastle futures trading above $US440 ($648) a tonne, more than doubling since the start of 2022, with Europe’s energy crisis set to worsen as Russia considers a long-term halt of gas supplies to the continent.

Nothing like making a quick buck out of war .....regardless of the need to exit coal and gas, to save the planet from climate, environnmental and health concerns.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #316 - Sep 28^th, 2022 at 1:05pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 6^th, 2022 at 10:53am:

Frank wrote on Sep 6^th, 2022 at 9:10am:

One of Australia’s biggest commodity exports has surged to record levels, with the price of Newcastle coal soaring to all-time highs as miners cash in amid a deepening energy crisis in Europe.

The thermal coal rose to a new high with Newcastle futures trading above $US440 ($648) a tonne, more than doubling since the start of 2022, with Europe’s energy crisis set to worsen as Russia considers a long-term halt of gas supplies to the continent.

Nothing like making a quick buck out of war .....regardless of the need to exit coal and gas, to save the planet from climate, environnmental and health concerns.

Increased DEMAND, stooge.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #317 - Sep 28^th, 2022 at 1:08pm thegreatdivide says that ruinables are able to be made from non-fossil fueled sources. And they will cost nothing. Be maintained for nothing and produce...?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #318 - Sep 28^th, 2022 at 5:51pm

lee wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 1:08pm:

thegreatdivide says that ruinables are able to be made from non-fossil fueled sources.

Well...it's a case of fossils increasingly being put out of business, as renewables increasingly meet the demand.

Quote:

And they will cost nothing. Be maintained for nothing and produce...? Roll Eyes

That will be confirmed, as the profit-seeking private fossil companies resist being put out of business, and the public sector will have to step in to create the funding (via money- creation in central banks).

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #319 - Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:02pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 5:51pm:

lee wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 1:08pm:

thegreatdivide says that ruinables are able to be made from non-fossil fueled sources.

Well...it's a case of fossils increasingly being put out of business, as renewables increasingly meet the demand.

You are an idiot pal, repeating empty nonsense.

Renewables meet demand NOWHERE except in a little suburban house for their occasional fairy lights in the garden.

There is NO industry possible on renewables except hydro. Sun and wind are silly, exorbitantly expensive to manufacture and run and recycle toys for heating your chook run and little suburban garden lights.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #320 - Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:07pm

Frank wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 5:51pm:

lee wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 1:08pm:

thegreatdivide says that ruinables are able to be made from non-fossil fueled sources.

Well...it's a case of fossils increasingly being put out of business, as renewables increasingly meet the demand.

You are an idiot pal, repeating empty nonsense.

Renewables meet demand NOWHERE except in a little suburban house for their occasional fairy lights in the garden.

There is NO industry possible on renewables except hydro. Sun and wind are silly, exorbitantly expensive to manufacture and run and recycle toys for heating your chook run and little suburban garden lights.

Factually incorrect. The world's hot deserts alone - backed with pumped hydro storage - can produce all the GW's needed to power the global economy.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #321 - Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:11pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:07pm:

Factually incorrect. The world's hot desertts alone - backed with pumped hydro storage - can produce all the GW's needed to power the global economy.

The world's hot deserts alone MAY produce all the GW's. Except when the sun don 't shine.

As for pumped hydro - it is a loss proposition it takes more energy than its output.

But seeing as you are so certain of this perhaps you can name ONE industrialised country currently running on ruinables.

So tell us how all these ruinables are able to be manufactured with other ruinables. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #322 - Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:22pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:07pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 5:51pm:

lee wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 1:08pm:

thegreatdivide says that ruinables are able to be made from non-fossil fueled sources.

Well...it's a case of fossils increasingly being put out of business, as renewables increasingly meet the demand.

You are an idiot pal, repeating empty nonsense.

Renewables meet demand NOWHERE except in a little suburban house for their occasional fairy lights in the garden.

There is NO industry possible on renewables except hydro. Sun and wind are silly, exorbitantly expensive to manufacture and run and recycle toys for heating your chook run and little suburban garden lights.

Factually incorrect. The world's hot deserts alone - backed with pumped hydro storage - can produce all the GW's needed to power the global economy.

Oh!!! Of Course!!! That's why the common prosperity one party meritocracy CCP is powering China with the mirage off the deserts!!!! OF COURSE!! How did we miss THAT??

(AFGHANISTAN/Badghis: Sultana, 24, recently had to bury her youngest daughter, who froze to death in the Afghan desert.)

Come on pal, not even you take yourself seriously.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #323 - Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:30pm

Frank wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:22pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:07pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 5:51pm:

lee wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 1:08pm:

thegreatdivide says that ruinables are able to be made from non-fossil fueled sources.

Well...it's a case of fossils increasingly being put out of business, as renewables increasingly meet the demand.

You are an idiot pal, repeating empty nonsense.

Renewables meet demand NOWHERE except in a little suburban house for their occasional fairy lights in the garden.

There is NO industry possible on renewables except hydro. Sun and wind are silly, exorbitantly expensive to manufacture and run and recycle toys for heating your chook run and little suburban garden lights.

Factually incorrect. The world's hot deserts alone - backed with pumped hydro storage - can produce all the GW's needed to power the global economy.

Oh!!! Of Course!!! That's why the common prosperity one party meritocracy CCP is powering China with the mirage off the deserts!!!! OF COURSE!! How did we miss THAT??

(AFGHANISTAN/Badghis: Sultana, 24, recently had to bury her youngest daughter, who froze to death in the Afghan desert.)

Come on pal, not even you take yourself seriously.

The problem is global, something conservatives with their 'personal responsibility' mantra will have trouble understanding.

Fact: the hot deserts in Africa and Eurasia can supply all the GWS needed across that entire land mass.

Transmission technology can ensure every nation will be suppled as required (given the energy is free).

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #324 - Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:37pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:30pm:

The problem is global, something conservatives with their 'personal responsibility' mantra will have trouble understanding.

You mean like India, China, Russia etc.

"At the Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit, Chinese and Indian leaders — along with their counterparts from Russia and Turkey — explicitly declared that they cannot be coerced into reducing fossil fuel consumption, calling for an "increased investment in oil and gas production and exploration."

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:30pm:

Fact: the hot deserts in Africa and Eurasia can supply all the GWS needed across that entire land mass.

Supposition. Facts are something that happens after the wet dream.

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:30pm:

Transmission technology can ensure every nation will be suppled as required (given the energy is free).

Via WiFi.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #325 - Sep 29^th, 2022 at 11:51am

lee wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:37pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 28^th, 2022 at 6:30pm:

The problem is global, something conservatives with their 'personal responsibility' mantra will have trouble understanding.

You mean like India, China, Russia etc.

No I mean you, Frank Grapps etc.

Quote:

"At the Shanghai Cooperation Organization summit, Chinese and Indian leaders — along with their counterparts from Russia and Turkey — explicitly declared that they cannot be coerced into reducing fossil fuel consumption, calling for an "increased investment in oil and gas production and exploration."

That's what happens when the rich developed world selfishly demands the developing world funds its own exit from fossils

[quote[Supposition. Facts are something that happens after the wet dream. [/quote]

Denial of facts.

Quote:

Via WiFi.

No.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #326 - Sep 29^th, 2022 at 12:39pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 29^th, 2022 at 11:51am:

That's what happens when the rich developed world selfishly demands the developing world funds its own exit from fossils

And also deny cheap reliable electricity to Africa. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 29^th, 2022 at 11:51am:

Denial of facts.

And yet you can't back up your rhetoric. That makes it supposition. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #327 - Sep 29^th, 2022 at 8:57pm

lee wrote on Sep 29^th, 2022 at 12:39pm:

And also deny cheap reliable electricity to Africa. Roll Eyes

Er ...Africa is also counted as 'developing', and will require developed world support (not money, that's not an issue for central banks - but developed world know- how and technology).

Ouch,,,, the age of dog eat dog private sector market competition is drawing to its close. .

Quote:

And yet you can't back up your rhetoric. That makes it supposition. Roll Eyes

Memory loss?

We did that topic to death last year. You objected to paying people to clean solar panels....and claimed the Snowy2 scheme is flawed.

Oz - mainly a vast empty desert with great wind and solar resources, can easily power itself with renewables; the real problem here is our central bank orthodoxy....and the greed of fossil CEOs who want to continue to rip-off Oz power consumers

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #328 - Sep 29^th, 2022 at 9:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 29^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Er ...Africa is also counted as 'developing', and will require developed world support (not money, that's not an issue for central banks - but developed world know- how and technology).

But not fossil fuels. What part of cheap, reliable did you not get?

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 29^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Memory loss?

No

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 29^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

We did that topic to death last year. You objected to paying people to clean solar panels....and claimed the Snowy2 scheme is flawed.

The boffins say that it is flawed. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 29^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Oz - mainly a vast empty desert with great wind and solar resources, can easily power itself with renewables; the real problem here is our central bank orthodoxy....and the greed of fossil CEOs who want to continue to rip-off Oz power consumers

Oh not thesSahara then? And you still haven't come up with a way to clean the PV arrays. Free because the electricity will be free. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #329 - Sep 30^th, 2022 at 12:19pm

lee wrote on Sep 29^th, 2022 at 9:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 29^th, 2022 at 8:57pm:

Er ...Africa is also counted as 'developing', and will require developed world support (not money, that's not an issue for central banks - but developed world know- how and technology).

But not fossil fuels. What part of cheap, reliable did you not get?

er...the 'cheapest' form of new energy is renewables, especially in Africa which possesses the Sahara desert.
('cheapest' ..especially when funded by World Bank money creation)

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/are-solar-and-wind-cheapest-forms...

Quote:

The boffins say that it is flawed. Roll Eyes

the pro-fossil boffins, that is...

Quote:

Oh not thesSahara then?

Your powers of analysis? Oz has its own "Sahara" (Simpson plus Gibson plus etc... )

Quote:

And you still haven't come up with a way to clean the PV arrays. Free because the electricity will be free. Roll Eyes

You unemployed? I've got a well-paid outdoor job for you, funded by government overseeing an economy powered by free sunshine.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #330 - Sep 30^th, 2022 at 12:39pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 12:19pm:

er...the 'cheapest' form of new energy is renewables, especially in Africa which possesses the Sahara desert.
('cheapest' ..especially when funded by World Bank money creation)

Only until you have to back it up something. But tell me how they will overcome the sand dune drift. How about the stability of the structure in moving sand? Roll Eyes

From you ref -

"Building solar and wind power energy systems is cheaper than any other option in 2021, and they are predicted to ultimately produce far more electricity than is currently demanded."

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 12:19pm:

the pro-fossil boffins, that is...

https://theconversation.com/snowy-2-0-will-not-produce-nearly-as-much-electricit...

Ah yes those fossil fuel fiends from The Conversation. Roll Eyes

"
Author

Bruce Mountain

Director, Victoria Energy Policy Centre, Victoria University

Disclosure statement

Bruce Mountain does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment."

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 12:19pm:

Your powers of analysis? Oz has its own "Sahara" (Simpson plus Gibson plus etc... )

And they also suffer sand dune drift. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 12:19pm:

You unemployed? I've got a well-paid outdoor job for you, funded by government overseeing an economy powered by free sunshine.

If it is free how are they going to pay? What job? washing solar panels?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #331 - Sep 30^th, 2022 at 1:05pm

lee wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 12:39pm:

Only until you have to back it up something. But tell me how they will overcome the sand dune drift. How about the stability of the structure in moving sand? Roll Eyes

many desert areas are largely gibber plains

Quote:

From you ref -

"Building solar and wind power energy systems is cheaper than any other option in 2021, and they are predicted to ultimately produce far more electricity than is currently demanded."

Correct.

Quote:

https://theconversation.com/snowy-2-0-will-not-produce-nearly-as-much-electricit...

Ah yes those fossil fuel fiends from The Conversation.

The Conversation produces a range of views.

Quote:

And they also suffer sand dune drift. Roll Eyes

Not everywhere.

Quote:

If it is free how are they going to pay?

er...currency-issuing governments have central banks who can create money, (that's how the UK's BofE rescued the UK economy last week, and prevented another GFC (see the latest article in the MMT thread)

Quote:

What job? washing solar panels?

No, brushing them.

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« Last Edit: Sep 30^th, 2022 at 1:11pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #332 - Sep 30^th, 2022 at 2:01pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 1:05pm:

many desert areas are largely gibber plains

And thus making it harder to install those PV's that have to be made with fossil fuel energy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 1:05pm:

Correct.

Yeah. Nothing about the required backup. Once that is included it is not cheap. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 1:05pm:

The Conversation produces a range of views.

.
Weill perhaps you can find one that supports your theory on Snowy 2.0 Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 1:05pm:

Not everywhere.

So tell me where. Roll Eyes

.thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 1:05pm:

er...currency-issuing governments have central banks who can create money, (that's how the UK's BofE rescued the UK economy last week, and prevented another GFC (see the latest article in the MMT thread)

Wow. So soon and it has definitely PREVENTED a GFC. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 1:05pm:

No, brushing them.

With what straw brooms? You have heard of sand blasting haven't you? It etches the surface, reduces effectiveness. Roll Eyes

You should try cleaning your windscreen with a dry brush. Roll Eyes

How often do they have sand storms? Wind carries sand for miles. Remember when Sydney was covered in wind blown sand haze? Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #333 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 12:07pm

Power prices in Australia will soar by at least 35 per cent in 2023 amid a choppy energy transition and the closure of coal plants, the nation’s fourth-largest electricity retailer said.

“Next year using the current market prices, tariffs are going up a minimum 35 per cent,” Alinta chief executive Jeff Dimery told an energy conference in Sydney. “It’s horrendous, it’s unpalatable. We don’t want energy consumers getting their power bills and setting fire to them.”

Withdrawal from Kabul was orderly, by comparison.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #334 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 3:52pm

Frank wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 12:07pm:

Power prices in Australia will soar by at least 35 per cent in 2023 amid a choppy energy transition and the closure of coal plants, the nation’s fourth-largest electricity retailer said.

“Next year using the current market prices, tariffs are going up a minimum 35 per cent,” Alinta chief executive Jeff Dimery told an energy conference in Sydney. “It’s horrendous, it’s unpalatable. We don’t want energy consumers getting their power bills and setting fire to them.”

Withdrawal from Kabul was orderly, by comparison.

yes, the private sector won't be able to effect an orderely transition to renewables. ...so it's not suprising Atlinta are squealing. Atlinta's 'offers' are an indecipherable sham, electrons are electrons wherever they originate.

The entire power industry should be nationalized

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #335 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 3:59pm

Frank wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 12:07pm:

Power prices in Australia will soar by at least 35 per cent in 2023 amid a choppy energy transition and the closure of coal plants, the nation’s fourth-largest electricity retailer said.

“Next year using the current market prices, tariffs are going up a minimum 35 per cent,” Alinta chief executive Jeff Dimery told an energy conference in Sydney. “It’s horrendous, it’s unpalatable. We don’t want energy consumers getting their power bills and setting fire to them.”

Withdrawal from Kabul was orderly, by comparison.

I have this great idea!

Let's keep burning coal and destroy the planet!

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So many farkwits, so little time.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #336 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 4:04pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 3:52pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 12:07pm:

Power prices in Australia will soar by at least 35 per cent in 2023 amid a choppy energy transition and the closure of coal plants, the nation’s fourth-largest electricity retailer said.

“Next year using the current market prices, tariffs are going up a minimum 35 per cent,” Alinta chief executive Jeff Dimery told an energy conference in Sydney. “It’s horrendous, it’s unpalatable. We don’t want energy consumers getting their power bills and setting fire to them.”

Withdrawal from Kabul was orderly, by comparison.

yes, the private sector won't be able to effect an orderely transition to renewables. ...so it's not suprising Atlinta are squealing. Atlinta's 'offers' are an indecipherable sham, electrons are electrons wherever they originate.

The entire power industry should be nationalized

It was functioning well until government policies, yielding to Greens and Teals pressure, signed up to the net zero insanity and a completely disorderly, shambolic, idiotic Greens-driven energy transition. No private industry could or would handicap itself as comprehensively as governments around the Western world are handicapping them so as not to be growled at by the Gretas.

Watch Europe over the coming winter. EU stupidity on climate and energy policy is going to bite hard.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #337 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 4:55pm random wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 3:59pm: I have this great idea! random has a random thought and believes he has an idea. So says the No-eyed ear.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #338 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 4:57pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 3:52pm:

yes, the private sector won't be able to effect an orderely transition to renewables. ...so it's not suprising Atlinta are squealing. Atlinta's 'offers' are an indecipherable sham, electrons are electrons wherever they originate.

But the pundits say it is green electrons. Despite the PV arays and wind turbines being made using fossil fuels. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #339 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 5:02pm

random wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 3:59pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 12:07pm:

Power prices in Australia will soar by at least 35 per cent in 2023 amid a choppy energy transition and the closure of coal plants, the nation’s fourth-largest electricity retailer said.

“Next year using the current market prices, tariffs are going up a minimum 35 per cent,” Alinta chief executive Jeff Dimery told an energy conference in Sydney. “It’s horrendous, it’s unpalatable. We don’t want energy consumers getting their power bills and setting fire to them.”

Withdrawal from Kabul was orderly, by comparison.

I have this great idea!

Let's keep burning coal and destroy the planet!

China, India and the third world are listening to you, Mr Cert III.

The coloured chappies like you will kiiiiill you.... Shocked

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #340 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 5:12pm

Frank wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 4:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 3:52pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 12:07pm:

Power prices in Australia will soar by at least 35 per cent in 2023 amid a choppy energy transition and the closure of coal plants, the nation’s fourth-largest electricity retailer said.

“Next year using the current market prices, tariffs are going up a minimum 35 per cent,” Alinta chief executive Jeff Dimery told an energy conference in Sydney. “It’s horrendous, it’s unpalatable. We don’t want energy consumers getting their power bills and setting fire to them.”

Withdrawal from Kabul was orderly, by comparison.

yes, the private sector won't be able to effect an orderely transition to renewables. ...so it's not suprising Atlinta are squealing. Atlinta's 'offers' are an indecipherable sham, electrons are electrons wherever they originate.

The entire power industry should be nationalized

It was functioning well until government policies, yielding to Greens and Teals pressure, signed up to the net zero insanity and a completely disorderly, shambolic, idiotic Greens-driven energy transition.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jan/01/john-howard-2000-cabinet-...

"Climate change remained a major issue for the Howard government as it had been in previous years – and would continue to be.

The 2000 cabinet papers show the Australian Greenhouse Office was working on an emissions trading scheme in early 2000, and sought funding for it in the May budget."

hmm...Howard was in on it, too.....

Quote:

No private industry could or would handicap itself as comprehensively as governments around the Western world are handicapping them so as not to be growled at by the Gretas.

Governments actually believe the scientfic majority opinion on climate change, but yes - now the 'nuts and bolts' of the transition are coming into play, there is much confusion in government about funding the transition. The nationalization route has not yet been broached, because the neoliberal market goons are still in power, in government.

Quote:

Watch Europe over the coming winter. EU stupidity on climate and energy policy is going to bite hard.

I hope so. A few people freezing to death will likely destroy the economically useless neoliberal EU.

Not surprisingly, France is taking control:

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/france-keeps-edf-buyout-offer-12-euros-p...

France starts process to fully nationalise power group EDF

"PARIS, Oct 4 (Reuters) - France on Tuesday started the process to fully nationalise debt-laden nuclear power group EDF (EDF.PA), seeking to secure greater control of its energy supplies as Europe scrambles to replace Russian gas."

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #341 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 5:27pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

Governments actually believe the scientfic majority opinion on climate change, but yes - now the 'nuts and bolts' of the transition are coming into play, there is much confusion in government about funding the transition

So what is the consensus now? 97. 98 995 or 100%. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

A few people freezing to death will likely destroy the economically useless neoliberal EU.

Yes Those bloody Germans and wind and solar. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

"PARIS, Oct 4 (Reuters) - France on Tuesday started the process to fully nationalise debt-laden nuclear power group EDF (EDF.PA), seeking to secure greater control of its energy supplies as Europe scrambles to replace Russian gas."

Yes Good old France -

"France to build up to 14 new nuclear reactors by 2050, says Macron"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/10/france-to-build-up-to-14-new-nucle...

All part of the green plan or not. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #342 - Oct 11^th, 2022 at 5:18pm

lee wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 5:27pm:

So what is the consensus now? 97. 98 995 or 100%.

The consensus that all governments believe is based on a majority IPPC report.

Quote:

Yes Those bloody Germans and wind and solar.

A timely transitition is impossible via the private sector, and the issue of nuclear should have been sorted globally ages ago.

Quote:

Yes Good old France -

"France to build up to 14 new nuclear reactors by 2050, says Macron"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/10/france-to-build-up-to-14-new-nucle...

All part of the green plan or not. Roll Eyes

Yes, I think nuclear is 'green', especially if CO2 emissions are a problem.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #343 - Oct 11^th, 2022 at 5:31pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 11^th, 2022 at 5:18pm:

The consensus that all governments believe is based on a majority IPPCC report.

The ignorance of experts. “Science is the Belief in the Ignorance of Experts” — Richard Feynman.

A scientist has to be sceptical - except with AGW. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 11^th, 2022 at 5:18pm:

A timely transitition is impossible via the private sector, and the issue of nuclear should have been sorted globally ages ago.

You should have stopped at "A timely transitition is impossible". Governments have been trying and failing to the tune of billions of dollars a year.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 11^th, 2022 at 5:18pm:

Yes, I think nuclear is 'green', especially if CO2 emissions are a problem.

So now nuclear is green, gas is green and CO2 may not be a problem. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #344 - Oct 12^th, 2022 at 8:55pm

lee wrote on Oct 11^th, 2022 at 5:31pm:

The ignorance of experts. “Science is the Belief in the Ignorance of Experts” — Richard Feynman.

Well, AGW-CO2 is accepted as real by all governments.

Even the opinionated Ray Hadley, while today attacking Labor for closing coal-powered power stations, said "this is not about denying climate change, this is about making sure there is sufficient renewable power available BEFORE the coal power plants are shut down, and without crippling price rises".

Quote:

A scientist has to be sceptical - except with AGW.

Governments don't....

Quote:

You should have stopped at "A timely transitition is impossible". Governments have been trying and failing to the tune of billions of dollars a year.

Failing BECAUSE the private fossil companies are still calling the shots, playing a double game (since they don't want their lucrative fossil assets rendered worthless..); neoliberal market economists want a politically toxic carbon tax to direct the private fossil companies to the required investment, and governments are hooked on royalties)

The public sector should have upgraded the grid a decade ago...now Chalmers will claim he doesn't have the money.

Quote:

So now nuclear is green,

China and India are rolling it out; they want to clean up their fossil-caused air pollution problem (apart from the CO2 issue). And France is pushing ahead.

Quote:

gas is green and CO2 may not be a problem.

Gas is NOT green (it emits CO2 when combusted); OTOH, governments (...and Ray Hadley....) are convinced AGW-CO2 is real.

(...though Ray is probably just playing it safe, given the elction results...)

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #345 - Oct 12^th, 2022 at 9:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2022 at 8:55pm:

lee wrote on Oct 11^th, 2022 at 5:31pm:

The ignorance of experts. “Science is the Belief in the Ignorance of Experts” — Richard Feynman.

Well, AGW-CO2 is accepted as real by all governments.

Even the opinionated Ray Hadley, while today attacking Labor for closing coal-powered power stations, said "this is not about denying climate change, this is about making sure there is sufficient renewable power available BEFORE the coal power plants are shut down, and without crippling price rises".

Quote:

A scientist has to be sceptical - except with AGW.

Governments don't....

Quote:

You should have stopped at "A timely transitition is impossible". Governments have been trying and failing to the tune of billions of dollars a year.

Failing BECAUSE the private fossil companies are still calling the shots, playing a double game (since they don't want their lucrative fossil assets rendered worthless..); neoliberal market economists want a politically toxic carbon tax to direct the private fossil companies to the required investment, and governments are hooked on royalties)

The public sector should have upgraded the grid a decade ago...now Chalmers will claim he doesn't have the money.

Quote:

So now nuclear is green,

China and India are rolling it out; they want to clean up their fossil-caused air pollution problem (apart from the CO2 issue). And France is pushing ahead.

Quote:

gas is green and CO2 may not be a problem.

Gas is NOT green (it emits CO2 when combusted); OTOH, governments (...and Ray Hadley....) are convinced AGW-CO2 is real.

(...though Ray is probably just playing it safe, given the elction results...)

You are a parrot with a ferret up yer arse.

Comical.

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Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #346 - Oct 12^th, 2022 at 10:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2022 at 8:55pm:

Well, AGW-CO2 is accepted as real by all governments.

Define ALL. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2022 at 8:55pm:

Even the opinionated Ray Hadley, while today attacking Labor for closing coal-powered power stations, said "this is not about denying climate change, this is about making sure there is sufficient renewable power available BEFORE the coal power plants are shut down, and without crippling price rises".

Yes the climate changes. Whoever said it wasn't? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2022 at 8:55pm:

Governments don't....

Excellent point. Governments like to keep the population in fear.

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary.” – H. L. Mencken.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2022 at 8:55pm:

Failing BECAUSE the private fossil companies are still calling the shots, playing a double game (since they don't want their lucrative fossil assets rendered worthless..); neoliberal market economists want a politically toxic carbon tax to direct the private fossil companies to the required investment, and governments are hooked on royalties)

And yet it is the Greens that are are causing the prices up, because the time for renewables is not yet. There is not enough despatchable energy from renewables. Roll Eyes

.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2022 at 8:55pm:

China and India are rolling it out; they want to clean up their fossil-caused air pollution problem (apart from the CO2 issue).

That must be why they are also running out new coal plant. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 12^th, 2022 at 8:55pm:

Gas is NOT green (it emits CO2 when combusted); OTOH, governments (...and Ray Hadley....) are convinced AGW-CO2 is real.

(...though Ray is probably just playing it safe, given the elction results...)

The Green led governments of Europe disagree with you. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #347 - Oct 13^th, 2022 at 12:02pm

lee wrote on Oct 12^th, 2022 at 10:24pm:

Define ALL. Wink

"In this treaty, nations agreed to “stabilize greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere” to prevent dangerous interference from human activity on the climate system. Today, the treaty has 197 signatories".

https://unric.org/en/cop26-a-snapshot-of-the-agreement/#:~:text=4%20min.&text=Af...

Quote:

Yes the climate changes. Whoever said it wasn't?

You fraud; Hadley was (on air at least) acknowledging the AGW-CO2 debate and the need to transition to green.

You time-wasting fraud, you knew that...

Quote:

Excellent point. Governments like to keep the population in fear.

because we are all paranoid Neanderthals who don't want to submit to rule of law on behalf of collective security and well-being.

Quote:

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary.” – H. L. Mencken.

Entrenched war and poverty are not imaginary; it's "security" spooks who are tilting at windmills - the consequence of blind 'survival' instincts in all of us, and a false belief in "freedom".

Quote:

And yet it is the Greens that are are causing the prices up, because the time for renewables is not yet. There is not enough despatchable energy from renewables. Roll Eyes

.

The Greens aren't responsible for the slow rollout of renewables and grid upgrade, that's the fault of the conflicted private sector and government collusion with the private sector, when the whole energy sector should be nationalized to eliminate the contradictions of private companies seeking fossil profits.

Quote:

That must be why they are also running out new coal plant. Roll Eyes

New coal is a stop gap for them, during the transition.

Quote:

The Green led governments of Europe disagree with you. Roll Eyes

Of course, neoliberal governments are conflicted, and colluding with private fossil industry interests, as noted above.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #348 - Oct 13^th, 2022 at 12:30pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 12:02pm:

"In this treaty, nations agreed to “stabilize greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere” to prevent dangerous interference from human activity on the climate system. Today, the treaty has 197 signatories".

https://unric.org/en/cop26-a-snapshot-of-the-agreement/#:~:text=4%20min.&text=Af
...

And only 195 Countries (including the Vatican and Palestine). Grin

But of course that doesn't mean they actually believe. China and India building more coal plant tells you more about what they "believe". Wink

Climate reparations now. Maldives, Tuvalu etc are not drowning. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 12:02pm:

You fraud; Hadley was (on air at least) acknowledging the AGW-CO2 debate and the need to transition to green.

Does he have a radio programme in remote WA? Grin

Oh its a debate now. Not a proven fact. Thanks for that.

So no-one you know has said climate doesn't change. Thanks for that as well.thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 12:02pm:

Entrenched war and poverty are not imaginary; it's "security" spooks who are tilting at windmills - the consequence of blind 'survival' instincts in all of us, and a false belief in "freedom".

Entrenched war and poverty have been around long before AGW. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 12:02pm:

The Greens aren't responsible for the slow rollout of renewables and grid upgrade, that's the fault of the conflicted private sector and government collusion with the private sector, when the whole energy sector should be nationalized to eliminate the contradictions of private companies seeking fossil profits.

Germany has theoretically enough solar and wind. Over 100GW and they can't make it work. SO that is not a slow rollout its a fault design feature of renewables. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 12:02pm:

New coal is a stop gap for them, during the transition.

Nope. But keep wishing. India has 62GW of coal planned.

"Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China"

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of...

Wow Some transition. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 12:02pm:

Of course, neoliberal governments are conflicted, and colluding with private fossil industry interests, as noted above.

More BS from you as noted above. Wink

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #349 - Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:12pm

lee wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 12:30pm:

And only 195 Countries (including the Vatican and Palestine)

But of course that doesn't mean they actually believe. China and India building more coal plant tells you more about what they "believe". Wink

Both have stated achievement of zero emissions by 2060...regardless of what they "believe:"

Quote:

Does he have a radio programme in remote WA?

Fraud. He is noting the failure of governments to build sufficient renewables BEFORE closing coal (regardless of his own "beliefs")

Quote:

Oh its a debate now. Not a proven fact. Thanks for that.

AGW-CO2 is a debate, but governments are signed up to transition to green.

Quote:

So no-one you know has said climate doesn't change. Thanks for that as well.

You fraud: you know "climate change" is short-hand for AGW-CO2, in this context.

Quote:

Entrenched war and poverty have been around long before AGW. Roll Eyes

And I explained why H L Mencken is wrong; you can discard him as a supporter of your stance re the possibilities of government.

Quote:

Germany has theoretically enough solar and wind. Over 100GW and they can't make it work. SO that is not a slow rollout its a fault design feature of renewables. Grin

Germany would be bullet proof, if it had sufficient inter-transmission with Africa.

Quote:

"Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China"

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of...

Wow Some transition.

India (and China) want to bring per capita electricity output up to Western levels; the transition will require increases in both fossils and renewables, to achieve that, because renewables storage technology (base load) is expensive.

Quote:

More BS from you as noted above. Wink

Blind neoliberal ideologues like you - and Mencken - are incapable of defining BS.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #350 - Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:47pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

Both have stated achievement of zero emissions by 2060...regardless of what they "believe:"

Exactly.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

Fraud.

Really? Where have I denied climate changes. Be specific. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

AGW-CO2 is a debate, but governments are signed up to transition to green.

Even though the debate is not settled. How bizarre. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

You fraud: you know "climate change" is short-hand for AGW-CO2, in this context.

Nope. You can't just make phrases to be specific when it suits you. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

And I explained why H L Mencken is wrong; you can discard him as a supporter of your stance re the possibilities of government.

Nope. Why is he wrong? Hobgoblins like AGW, COVID (now showing 1% death rate). No worse that the 'flu.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

Germany would be bullet proof, if it had sufficient inter-transmission with Africa.

Africa doesn't have the infrastructure and likely never will. But theoretically it should already be near bullet proof. Average usage 50GW, Only peak at 100GW should perhaps stretch it. So how many times peak should be catered for? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

India (and China) want to bring per capita electricity output up to Western levels; the transition will require increases in both fossils and renewables, to achieve that, because renewables storage technology (base load) is expensive.

Wow. Look at that. Storage is expensive. And India and China get a free pass upo to Western levels of emissions per capita. So gross emissions don't count. Good to know. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

Blind neoliberal ideologues like you - and Mencken - are incapable of defining BS.

You are just too stupid. Bye

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #351 - Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:31pm

lee wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 1:47pm:

Exactly.

Because they want to pay lip service to the IPCC consensus ....and they have a problem with fossil air pollution (regardless of CO2 emissions)

Quote:

Really? Where have I denied climate changes. Be specific.

Fraud; the debate (and Hadley) refers to AGW-CO2 denial. , not climate change denial.

Quote:

Even though the debate is not settled. How bizarre. Roll Eyes

Governments accept the IPCC position as settled, even if you don't.

Quote:

Nope. You can't just make phrases to be specific when it suits you.

Addressed above, fraud (or simpleton, take your pick)

Quote:

Why is he wrong? Hobgoblins like AGW, COVID (now showing 1% death rate). No worse that the 'flu.

"fearful citizens led to safety, by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary."

War and poverty, the mainstay of mankind, are not imaginary. So you don't get to say a desire for a green transition is "imaginary", just because governments and the citizens ARE led by "hobgoblins", and acquiesce in war and poverty.

Quote:

Africa doesn't have the infrastructure and likely never will.

Why? Because your greedy competitive neoliberal 'survival of the fittest " ideology mandates it?

Quote:

But theoretically it should already be near bullet proof. Average usage 50GW, Only peak at 100GW should perhaps stretch it. So how many times peak should be catered for? Roll Eyes

Whatever is needed: Africa and nuclear if necessary, can deal with peaks.

Quote:

Wow. Look at that. Storage is expensive. And India and China get a free pass up to Western levels of emissions per capita. So gross emissions don't count. Good to know.

No they don't; the Western world is too greedy to share its wealth, so Asia is increasing electricity output ASAP to lift per capita GDP, using BOTH fossils and renewables. Eventually, they will close the fossil plants AFTER they have sufficient capacity to ensure renewables storage is sufficient (with thousands of GWs of renewables then being available, with storade).

Quote:

You are just too stupid. Bye

Another blind neoliberal conservative bites the dust.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #352 - Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:43pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

Fraud; the debate (and Hadley) refers to AGW-CO2 denial. , not climate change denial.

So where have I denied that increasing CO2 might have an effect? The earth is not a greenhouse. How much exactly has CO2 caused temperatures to increase? Why was there global cooling in the 1970's at a time of increasing CO2?

The models are not science. There are too many parameters and they are running hot, so what is the magical number for CO2?

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

Governments accept the IPCC position as settled, even if you don't.

Oh dear. The science is settled? then tell us how much warming is due to CO2. Be specific. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

Addressed above, fraud (or simpleton, take your pick)

You should try a shovel you can't use a pick. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

War and poverty, the mainstay of mankind, are not imaginary.

True. And they have always been with us. However it is fear of war that makes it less certain.

"The head of the U.N. weather agency says the war in Ukraine “may be seen as a blessing” from a climate perspective because it is accelerating the development of and investment in green energies over the longer term — even though fossil fuels are being used at a time of high demand now."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-united-nations-weather-ece2a9...

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

Why? Because your greedy competitive neoliberal 'survival of the fittest " ideology mandates it?

No petal because the green dream is already turning to a nightmare.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

Whatever is needed: Africa and nuclear if necessary, can deal with peaks.

So the green dream again. You can't even get past the notion that it won't work as evidenced by Germany. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:31pm:

Another blind neoliberal conservative bites the dust.

Oh dear. You lost the debate again. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #353 - Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am

lee wrote on Oct 13^th, 2022 at 2:43pm:

So where have I denied that increasing CO2 might have an effect?

Unlike you, Hadley says the real issue is building sufficient solar/wind plus storage, BEFORE closing coal.

You deny that's the issue.

Quote:

Oh dear. The science is settled? then tell us how much warming is due to CO2. Be specific. Roll Eyes

Still whistling in the wind?

Quote:

You should try a shovel you can't use a pick. Roll Eyes

simpleton or fraud....; Hadley is no friend of the Left.

Quote:

True. And they have always been with us. However it is fear of war that makes it less certain.

BS; and in the age of MAD, how desperate will Putin become?

Meanwhile Conservative "freedom" ideologues typified by monstrosities like Alex Jones, who is still shouting his "freedom" filth, are responsible for double crimes against the relatives of the Sandy Hook massacre - the original murders and then loosing his hellish followers on the relatives.

Quote:

"The head of the U.N. weather agency says the war in Ukraine “may be seen as a blessing” from a climate perspective because it is accelerating the development of and investment in green energies over the longer term — even though fossil fuels are being used at a time of high demand now."

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-united-nations-weather-ece2a9...

Pathetic; he should be made to live in the front lines in Ukraine. And the UN itself was crippled from its inception with its absurd concept of 'legal war', supposedly defensive.... a case of instinct overruling rationality.

Quote:

No petal because the green dream is already turning to a nightmare.

..because of resistance from your evil neoliberal delusional "freedom" ideology. The world could transition to green for free and in an orderly fashion, if the greedy profit-seeking private sector was pissed off by governments, as it should be in the case of power generation for 8 billion people.

Quote:

So the green dream again. You can't even get past the notion that it won't work as evidenced by Germany. Roll Eyes

Germany is madly closing its nuclear capacity BEFORE
100% renewable capacity has been achieved; and it remains to be seen if Germany, a cold country, CAN be 100% renewable, unlike Oz where it's laughably simple to go 100% on solar and wind....provided the greedy private sector is pissed off by government.

Quote:

Oh dear. You lost the debate again. Grin

I thought you had gone; all self-interested, "freedom" goons refuse to look at the instinct - versus rationality - impelling their sick "freedom" ideology, and eventually slink off, defeated.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #354 - Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:06pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am:

Unlike you, Hadley says the real issue is building sufficient solar/wind plus storage, BEFORE closing coal.

You deny that's the issue.

It is the only issue. And seeing as wind and solar are a no go due to intermittency they shouldn't close coal. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am:

Still whistling in the wind?

Still having your "beliefs"? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am:

Hadley is no friend of the Left.

And I have never claimed he was. Why do you insist on making thins up? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am:

BS; and in the age of MAD, how desperate will Putin become?

How long is a piece of string? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am:

Pathetic; he should be made to live in the front lines in Ukraine. And the UN itself was crippled from its inception with its absurd concept of 'legal war', supposedly defensive.... a case of instinct overruling rationality.

And yet the UN is ruled by the left. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am:

The world could transition to green for free and in an orderly fashion, if the greedy profit-seeking private sector was pissed off by governments, as it should be in the case of power generation for 8 billion people.

Do you now start singing "Kumbaya"? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am:

Germany is madly closing its nuclear capacity BEFORE
100% renewable capacity has been achieved; and it remains to be seen if Germany, a cold country, CAN be 100% renewable, unlike Oz where it's laughably simple to go 100% on solar and wind....provided the greedy private sector is pissed off by government.

Theoretically they have enough for 100% renewables. 110GW of renewables. Peak usage 100GW. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am:

I thought you had gone; all self-interested, "freedom" goons refuse to look at the instinct - versus rationality - impelling their sick "freedom" ideology, and eventually slink off, defeated.

Poor petal. So obtuse and doesn't know it. Thought I had left and so thought he would do a little grave digging. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #355 - Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:28pm

lee wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:06pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 11:20am:

Unlike you, Hadley says the real issue is building sufficient solar/wind plus storage, BEFORE closing coal.

You deny that's the issue.

It is the only issue. And seeing as wind and solar are a no go due to intermittency they shouldn't close coal. Roll Eyes

Storage...

Quote:

And I have never claimed he was. Why do you insist on making thins up? Roll Eyes

You deny the capacity of OZ to go 100% renewable. Hadley doesn't deny that capacity.

Quote:

How long is a piece of string? Roll Eyes

Regardless, your sick "fear of war" proposition has so far resulted in thousands of deaths and billions in property damage in Ukraine.

Quote:

And yet the UN is ruled by the left. Roll Eyes

Wrong, the UN's ideals are Leftist, but it's ruled by Rightist instinct (hence the crippling veto in the UNSC).

Quote:

Do you now start singing "Kumbaya"? Roll Eyes

Co-operation at the level of the UN is required to engender sustainable prosperity in all nations....as Keynes knew, which is why he presented his 'clearing union' concept at the Bretton Wood meetings in 1944.

Rejected by sick "freedom" ideologues.

Quote:

Theoretically they have enough for 100% renewables. 110GW of renewables. Peak usage 100GW. Roll Eyes

So ...you need double the peak? Even with nuclear backup?....which stupid Germans are closing while France next door is increasing nuclear...

Quote:

Poor petal. So obtuse and doesn't know it. Thought I had left and so thought he would do a little grave digging. Grin

I'm here to reveal your sick instinct-based "freedom" ideology.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #356 - Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

Storage...

And never mind the cost. Dams cost money, flood the environment behind the dam wails, and can also cause flooding.

Big Batteries 100MW for $90 million. How much for a n umber of 12GW batteries? Which are themselves toxic. Roll Eyes

.
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

You deny the capacity of OZ to go 100% renewable. Hadley doesn't deny that capacity.

Good for him. He is apparently a shock jock, no apparent science at all - like you. Roll Eyes

.
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

Regardless, your sick "fear of war" proposition has so far resulted in thousands of deaths and billions in property damage in Ukraine.

Yes. And many deaths over 1,000's of years. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

Wrong, the UN's ideals are Leftist, but it's ruled by Rightist instinct (hence the crippling veto in the UNSC).

Rubbish. There are more leftist governments than rightist. So China and Russia are now not leftist? Shocked

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

Co-operation at the level of the UN is required to engender sustainable prosperity in all nations....as Keynes knew, which is why he presented his 'clearing union' concept at the Bretton Wood meetings in 1944.

It can't be done by sequestering western wealth. That only makes all countries poor. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

So ...you need double the peak?

Oh only double? So that when the wind doesn't blow you get twice nothing or when the sun don't shine... Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

I'm here to reveal your sick instinct-based "freedom" ideology.

And yet youy can't even convince yourself. Wombling about. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #357 - Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm

lee wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

Storage...

And never mind the cost.

Cost is not a substantive issue for a currency-issuer (government).

Quote:

Dams cost money,

Wrong, they cost resources, the money is not an issue for the currency-issuer (hence the need for nationalization of the power sector for an orderly transition with the private sector shut out of it.

Quote:

flood the environment behind the dam wails, and can also cause flooding.

Compared with the environmental damage from the filthy fossil industry....

Quote:

Big Batteries 100MW for $90 million. How much for a n umber of 12GW batteries? Which are themselves toxic. Roll Eyes

Dams aren't toxic., and a 100% recycling industry must be developed to deal with toxic waste.

Quote:

Good for him. He is apparently a shock jock, no apparent science at all - like you. Roll Eyes

He is certainly a loud-mouth shock-jock who nevertheless wants to appeal to the majority of his conservative audience who want to transition to green.

Quote:

Yes. And many deaths over 1,000's of years. Roll Eyes

It's time to end the madness, an eternal sacrifice to a God of War.....did someone mention "homo sapiens"....

Quote:

Rubbish. There are more leftist governments than rightist. So China and Russia are now not leftist?

Around 50 of the delegates from smaller countries voted to withhold the veto power from the 'big 5' in the UNSC in 1946, but they were defeated by great power politics (you guessed it: irrational instinct-driven "freedom" politics. Whether China and Russia are 'Leftist' is moot.

Quote:

It can't be done by sequestering western wealth. That only makes all countries poor. Roll Eyes

Keynes 'clearing union' idea didn't sequester western wealth, it enabled economic development in all nations by avoiding trade and currency wars,

Quote:

Oh only double? So that when the wind doesn't blow you get twice nothing or when the sun don't shine... Roll Eyes

a windless, sunless world for months on end? ...
How much nuclear will be needed is to be determined.

Quote:

And yet youy can't even convince yourself. Wombling about. Roll Eyes

oh... I know your sick instinct-driven irrational "freedom" ideology is the real problem in the world at present.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #358 - Oct 14^th, 2022 at 5:12pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

Cost is not a substantive issue for a currency-issuer (government).

All this based on a theory that has never been substantively tested. What could possibly go wrong? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

Wrong, they cost resources, the money is not an issue for the currency-issuer (hence the need for nationalization of the power sector for an orderly transition with the private sector shut out of it.

More of your MMT bullschist. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

Compared with the environmental damage from the filthy fossil industry....

You mean ongoing floods are good for people? How about the environmental damage of lithium mining? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

Dams aren't toxic., and a 100% recycling industry must be developed to deal with toxic waste.

100% recycling of toxic waste? What the hell are you going to turn it into? So no science, no maths and no clue. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

He is certainly a loud-mouth shock-jock who nevertheless wants to appeal to the majority of his conservative audience who want to transition to green.

Now all you have to do is show your science is correct. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

It's time to end the madness, an eternal sacrifice to a God of War.....did someone mention "homo sapiens"....

While ever there are evil men (women) in the world there will be wars. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

Around 50 of the delegates from smaller countries voted to withhold the veto power from the 'big 5' in the UNSC in 1946, but they were defeated by great power politics (you guessed it: irrational instinct-driven "freedom" politics.

And nothing about their politics. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

Keynes 'clearing union' idea didn't sequester western wealth, it enabled economic development in all nations by avoiding trade and currency wars,

That was then. Now it is all about Climate Reparations. The money to come from those evil fossil fuel countries. The same Fossil fuel that gave them advancement, schooling, medicines. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

a windless, sunless world for months on end? ...

How about 7 days. And only because world electricity is a no go. So the need is to look regionally. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

oh... I know your sick instinct-driven irrational "freedom" ideology is the real problem in the world at present.

So it is not about energy security for anyone? Thanks for that. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #359 - Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm

lee wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

Cost is not a substantive issue for a currency-issuer (government).

All this based on a theory that has never been substantively tested. What could possibly go wrong?

Nothing.

btw, note the Oz government is now on the hook - to private money lenders - to the tune of c. $1 trillion, around $350 billion of which is directly the consequence of government borrowing during the covid enforced lockdowns.

So now citizens are up for a double whammy, as interest rates rise, further enriching the private money lenders. as governments (like private borrowers) are forced to pay ever higher interest repayments on the debt.

Sheer madness; the whole evil system should collapse of its own accord soon, as governments around the world begin falling over - while enriching private money lenders - under unsustainable public debt.

Quote:

More of your MMT bullschist.

Resources, not money are needed by the currency-issuer to build things. Your evil private greed-based system of debt-based money creation is THE barrier to a better world.

Quote:

You mean ongoing floods are good for people? How about the environmental damage of lithium mining?

Dumb mode again: dams are not ongoing floods;
and clean mining practices are a matter of good planning and execution.

Quote:

100% recycling of toxic waste? What the hell are you going to turn it into? So no science, no maths and no clue. Roll Eyes

If it can't be recycled (like nuclear waste), then safe storage. Oz could safely store all the world's toxic waste, but there are many other sites around the world.

Quote:

Now all you have to do is show your science is correct]

Nah.....I'll leave that to others, I want to see Dr. Saul Griffiths' plans for 'Rewiring Australia' (google) come to fruition.

Quote:

While ever there are evil men (women) in the world there will be wars. Roll Eyes

Not so fast; whoever insists on national sovereignty (and the absurd doctrine of "legal" war) above rule of international law, is complicit in the endless madness.

Ouch....

Quote:

And nothing about their politics.

Instinct-driven irrationality is beyond politics.

Quote:

That was then. Now it is all about Climate Reparations. The money to come from those evil fossil fuel countries. The same Fossil fuel that gave them advancement, schooling, medicines. Roll Eyes

Er ...Trump's trade wars (ongoing) affecting friend and foe alike, are now...

Quote:

How about 7 days. And only because world electricity is a no go. So the need is to look regionally. Roll Eyes

Singapore has plans to import Pilbara sunshine, Japan to import Oz green hydrogen (ammonia) to produce green electricity.

The possibility of the northern half of Oz being shrouded by cloud, and the entire Oz coastline being windless for 7 days is ......vanishingly small.

Quote:

So it is not about energy security for anyone? Thanks for that.

Dumb mode again....

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« Last Edit: Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:34pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #360 - Oct 14^th, 2022 at 10:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Nothing.

That's how much you know. Not what happens when/if the untried theory fails.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Sheer madness; the whole evil system should collapse of its own accord soon, as governments around the world begin falling over - while enriching private money lenders - under unsustainable public debt.

That's exactly what MMT is. public Debt. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Resources, not money are needed by the currency-issuer to build things.

Only in your nirvana like state. Roll Eyes

.
thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Dumb mode again: dams are not ongoing floods;

They certainly can be. Look at the east coast currently. Dammed and damned.

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

and clean mining practices are a matter of good planning and execution.

Yes. The government will do it. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

If it can't be recycled (like nuclear waste), then safe storage. Oz could safely store all the world's toxic waste, but there are many other sites around the world.

But you were saying it could be 100% recycled. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Nah.....I'll leave that to others, I want to see Dr. Saul Griffiths' plans for 'Rewiring Australia' (google) come to fruition.

Yeah. We know you don't do science. you just follow the latest "influencer". Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Not so fast; whoever insists on national sovereignty (and the absurd doctrine of "legal" war) above rule of international law, is complicit in the endless madness.

So international law should rule us all. Who is going to head this international law? You? The Russians. Chinese? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Instinct-driven irrationality is beyond politics.

Only to a leftist. Roll Eyes

.thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Er ...Trump's trade wars (ongoing) affecting friend and foe alike, are now...

Trump didn't shut down coal and oil. Trump didn't invade Ukraine. Trump didn't turn off gas to Europe. Trump DID warn Europe about relying on Russian fossil fuels. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Singapore has plans to import Pilbara sunshine, Japan to import Oz green hydrogen (ammonia) to produce green electricity.

Ah yes Plans. The Russian Nord Stream2 should show you the folly of undersea infrastructure. Roll Eyes

And you can't tell the difference between hydrogen and ammonia. H2 or NH4.NH3 Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

The possibility of the northern half of Oz being shrouded by cloud, and the entire Oz coastline being windless for 7 days is ......vanishingly small.

So not impossible then. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 9:24pm:

Dumb mode again....

Yes you keep showing your dumb mode. Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Oct 15^th, 2022 at 6:43pm by lee »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #361 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:26am

lee wrote on Oct 14^th, 2022 at 10:00pm:

That's exactly what MMT is. public Debt. Roll Eyes

Wrong, MMT avoids forcing government into the hands of private money lenders who must be repaid with interest.
You of course cannot explain why government, forced to pay living expenses of locked-down workers in a pandemic, should be required to borrow the money from private money lenders....as if only private money lenders should be privileged to create money.

Quote:

Only in your nirvana like state. Roll Eyes

Rationality versus irrational (instinctive) greed, again.. The basis of your world view. You can't build dams with money, you need materials and know-how.
Floods happen, dams or no dams.

Quote:

Yes. The government will do it.

Government funded R&D is necessary because the greedy profit seeking private sector is only interested in...profits.

Quote:

But you were saying it could be 100% recycled.

I'm saying we need to approach 100% recyclability, as far as possible.

Quote:

Yeah. We know you don't do science. you just follow the latest "influencer". Roll Eyes

..to rewire Oz...yes.

Quote:

So international law should rule us all. Who is going to head this international law? You? The Russians. Chinese?

Just as individual sovereignty ("freedom") must be subject to national law (to avoid chaos), so national sovereignty must be subject to international law, to avoid war.

International law does not encroach on national law as far as a nation's internal affairs are involved.

Therefore your statement: "rule us all" is simplistic nonsense.

Quote:

Only to a leftist. Roll Eyes

Wrong, only to irrational, instinct driven Neanderthals like yourself.

Quote:

Trump didn't shut down coal and oil. Trump didn't invade Ukraine. Trump didn't turn off gas to Europe. Trump DID warn Europe about relying on Russian fossil fuels. Roll Eyes

And Trump ("America First") did introduce tariffs on EU goods, lifting prices for everyone.

Quote:

Ah yes Plans. The Russian Nord Stream2 should show you the folly of undersea infrastructure. Roll Eyes

Nord 2 would have been a great piece of transition infrastructure to enable the EU to exit filthy coal.

Quote:

And you can't tell the difference between hydrogen and ammonia. H2 or NH4. Roll Eyes

Ammonia may prove to be a more practical way to export hydrogen.

Quote:

So not impossible then.

Power blackouts have always happened.

Quote:

Dumb mode

says the blind, irrational (instinctive) "freedom" ideologue; "dumb" is moot.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #362 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 12:37pm Just so much wrong with the whole post. An example - thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 11:26am: And Trump ("America First") did introduce tariffs on EU goods, lifting prices for everyone. So Trump introduced tariffs on European goods to the world? Your hyperbole gets you every time.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #363 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:57pm

lee wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 12:37pm:

Just so much wrong with the whole post. An example -

except you can't refute it.

Quote:

So Trump introduced tariffs on European goods to the world? Grin

No, the US was the EU's largest trading partner (might be China now, iirc); ie tariffs on EU goods into the US.

The issue is your vicious neoclassical orthodoxy responsible for trade wars and economic ruin around much of the globe...and the "endless war" economy. (see MMT #251,7,8)

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/255#258

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #364 - Oct 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 3:57pm: The issue is your vicious neoclassical orthodoxy responsible for trade wars and economic ruin...and the "endless war" economy. (see MMT #251,7,8) The issue is YOU LIED. And your theory that nothing bad can happen from MMT.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #365 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 10:18am

lee wrote on Oct 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

The issue is YOU LIED. Grin

Your dumb mode..or fraud, take your pick.

Making an issue over who was affected by Trump's tariffs, you fraud.

All following my praise for Keynes' 'clearing union' concept, which you brushed aside with " that was then, now is now".

You contemptible neoliberal "freedom" fraud.

Like those fools shouting WLM to counter the BLM protests; greedy private sector neoliberal market orthodoxy is responsible for the disadvantage giving rise to the discontent in both groups.

Quote:

And your theory that nothing bad can happen from MMT. Wink

It can't; MMT recognizes inflation as THE limit to money creation (in the public and private sectors combined).

Of course you can't address #361, being crippled mentally by your self-interested instinct driven 'survival of the fittest' ideology.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #366 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 11:40am thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 10:18am: It can't; MMT recognizes inflation as THE limit to money creation (in the public and private sectors combined). And how do they limit inflation? At what level? Stop printing money? A shock stop?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #367 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:17pm

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 11:40am:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/365#365 date=1665879483]

It can't; MMT recognizes inflation as THE limit to money creation (in the public and private sectors combined).

And how do they limit inflation? [quote]

Measure price rises, determine the reason for those price rises, and take appropriate steps to contain those price rises.

Note: not all government spending is inflationary.

Keynes' disposed of the "quantity theory of money" last century.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #368 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:17pm:

Note: not all government spending is inflationary.

That wasn't the statement. Government printing the money is inflationary and will create its own loop until a sudden cut-off. The ones holding the inflated dollars are those to suffer. Big government, big business can afford it. Joe Average can't. The only way to compensate is...print more money. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #369 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:05pm

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 12:17pm:

Note: not all government spending is inflationary.

That wasn't the statement. Government printing the money is inflationary

Same thing: government spending funded by debt-free money issuance is not always inflationary.

eg in a pandemic lock-down, provided the govt. spending (to enable non-essential locked-down workers to pay their essential ongoing bills) doesn't increase the money in private bank accounts, there will be no inflation when the lockdowns are lifted because there will be no extra money in workers' bank accounts for them to spend.

Quote:

and will create its own loop until a sudden cut-off.

Waffle; addressed above.

Quote:

The ones holding the inflated dollars are those to suffer.

Which means govt. must avoid "inflating the dollars", as outlined above. ie, ensuring private accounts do not exceed the economy's productive capacity.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #370 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 5:28pm thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:05pm: Which means govt. must avoid "inflating the dollars", as outlined above. ie, ensuring private accounts do not exceed the economy's productive capacity. Ah the gubmint will fix it.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #371 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:34pm

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 5:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 4:05pm:

Which means govt. must avoid "inflating the dollars", as outlined above. ie, ensuring private accounts do not exceed the economy's productive capacity.

Ah the gubmint will fix it. Grin

you are learning.... slowly...; certainly private greed will take us all to hell in handbasket, as the disadvantaged fall by the wayside and governments collapse under debt which "must be repaid (with interest)" to private money lenders.

Ellen Brown: A Monetary Reset Where the Rich Don’t Own Everything

We have a serious debt problem, but solutions such as the World Economic Forum’s “Great Reset” are not the future we want. It’s time to think outside the box for some new solutions

https://scheerpost.com/2022/05/04/ellen-brown-a-monetary-reset-where-the-rich-do...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #372 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:45pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:34pm:

you are learning.

I learnt the failings of Government ages ago. But you were the one saying there was no problem. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:34pm:

Ellen Brown: A Monetary Reset Where the Rich Don’t Own Everything

Or anything. The loonies wet dream. Grin

And from Scheersh!t.com Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #373 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 10:59am

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:45pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 16^th, 2022 at 6:34pm:

you are learning.

I learnt the failings of Government ages ago.

You deserve another pandemic or two....after which time government debt will be so vast your taxes will never be able to repay the usurious private money lenders to whom the debt is owed.

Quote:

But you were the one saying there was no problem

Back to front as usual. I'm the one pointing out the unsustainability of business as usual.

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59523 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #374 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 12:24pm
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #375 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 12:45pm Frank wrote on Oct 17^th, 2022 at 12:24pm: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfN1aYMXkAISA6D?.jpg That refers to dams for irrigation, not for pumped-hydro storage (which recycle water in a closed loop).
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #376 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 1:58pm thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 17^th, 2022 at 10:59am: Back to front as usual. I'm the one pointing out the unsustainability of business as usual. And yet you want the untried MMT as business as usual.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #377 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 2:15pm

lee wrote on Oct 17^th, 2022 at 1:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 17^th, 2022 at 10:59am:

Back to front as usual. I'm the one pointing out the unsustainability of business as usual.

And yet you want the untried MMT as business as usual. Roll Eyes

Correct. Be patient, doctorate level courses in MMT sustainable economics are beginning this year.

(Way above your capacity, but graduates will soon replace the current crop of 'flat-earth' neoclassicists currently boring us all silly with their empty-headed "govt. debt which must be repaid"/ "balanced govt. budget" etc etc BS.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #378 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 3:13pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 17^th, 2022 at 2:15pm:

(Way above your capacity, but graduates will soon replace the current crop of 'flat-earth' neoclassicists currently boring us all silly with their empty-headed "govt. debt which must be repaid"/ "balanced govt. budget" etc etc BS.

They can't even get an unbalanced budget right. Grin

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59523 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #379 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 6:52pm Frank wrote on Oct 17^th, 2022 at 12:24pm: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FfN1aYMXkAISA6D?.jpg
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #380 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 11:36am

lee wrote on Oct 17^th, 2022 at 3:13pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 17^th, 2022 at 2:15pm:

(Way above your capacity, but graduates will soon replace the current crop of 'flat-earth' neoclassicists currently boring us all silly with their empty-headed "govt. debt which must be repaid"/ "balanced govt. budget" etc etc BS.

They can't even get an unbalanced budget right. Grin

As if you know anything about government budgets, you blind supporter of usurious private-sector money lenders.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #381 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 7:36pm

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:34am:

Now with
Albo's minority Govt
the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

Australia's new Labor government has secured a majority in parliament
, election analysts say.

The centre-left party, led by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, defeated Scott Morrison's conservative coalition in an election on 21 May.

A record vote for independents and minor parties had made it uncertain whether Mr Albanese would govern in his own right.

But he now has the 76 lower house seats needed, after victories in tight races.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-61641853

.

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'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

- Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #382 - Mar 1^st, 2023 at 9:35pm *
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #383 - Mar 2^nd, 2023 at 12:25pm

Quote:

Greta Thunberg has been taking part in a five-day protest blocking the entrance to Norway’s energy ministry to protest against wind turbines.

Miss Thunberg was specifically demonstrating against wind turbines built on land traditionally used by indigenous Sami reindeer herders.

“Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people. Then it is not climate justice,” she said while sitting outside the ministry’s main entrance with other demonstrators.

Norway’s supreme court in 2021 ruled that two wind farms built in central Norway violated Sami rights under international conventions, but the turbines remain in operation more than 16 months later.

Reindeer herders in the Nordic country say the sight and sound of the giant wind power machinery frighten their animals and disrupt age-old traditions.

Ms Thunberg and a dozen other Sami demonstrators have occupied the ministry’s reception area since Thursday. Police forcibly removed them at around 1.30am on Monday and detained them before releasing them.

They returned to the ministry at around 6am.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/02/27/greta-thunberg-blocks-door-nor...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #384 - Mar 2^nd, 2023 at 12:37pm

lee wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2023 at 12:25pm:

Quote:

Greta Thunberg has been taking part in a five-day protest blocking the entrance to Norway’s energy ministry to protest against wind turbines.

Miss Thunberg was specifically demonstrating against wind turbines built on land traditionally used by indigenous Sami reindeer herders.

“Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can’t happen at the expense of some people. Then it is not climate justice,” she said while sitting outside the ministry’s main entrance with other demonstrators.

Norway’s supreme court in 2021 ruled that two wind farms built in central Norway violated Sami rights under international conventions, but the turbines remain in operation more than 16 months later.

Reindeer herders in the Nordic country say the sight and sound of the giant wind power machinery frighten their animals and disrupt age-old traditions.

Ms Thunberg and a dozen other Sami demonstrators have occupied the ministry’s reception area since Thursday. Police forcibly removed them at around 1.30am on Monday and detained them before releasing them.

They returned to the ministry at around 6am.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/02/27/greta-thunberg-blocks-door-nor...

showing a 'fault line ' in the Greens: aboriginal culture and "nature" versus renewable energy.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #385 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 1:57pm
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #386 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 4:49pm lee wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 1:57pm: https://i.postimg.cc/Pq2S84Tg/mrz030523d-APR-800x0.jpg But you can run a grid on free sun and wind (and nuclear for backup) , though giving the greedy private sector the flick is probably necessary.... we will see.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #387 - Mar 6^th, 2023 at 4:59pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 4:49pm:

But you can run a grid on free sun and wind (and nuclear for backup) , though giving the greedy private sector the flick is probably necessary.... we will see.

The sun and wind are free. The installation, maintenance, replacement are not. And then of course the recycling. At least you got the nuclear bit right. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #388 - Mar 7^th, 2023 at 1:17pm

lee wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 4:59pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 6^th, 2023 at 4:49pm:

But you can run a grid on free sun and wind (and nuclear for backup) , though giving the greedy private sector the flick is probably necessary.... we will see.

The sun and wind are free. The installation, maintenance, replacement are not. And then of course the recycling. At least you got the nuclear bit right. Roll Eyes

Keynes said: "Anything we can actually do, we can afford.”

...provided we give the greedy private sector the flick - who would rather extract fat profits from fossils than build renewable infrastructure powered by free sunshine and wind...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #389 - Mar 7^th, 2023 at 2:28pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 1:17pm:

..provided we give the greedy private sector the flick - who would rather extract fat profits from fossils than build renewable infrastructure powered by free sunshine and wind...

So give us your reasoning for why those with the most wind and solar are among the most expensive. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #390 - Mar 8^th, 2023 at 3:13pm lee wrote on Mar 7^th, 2023 at 2:28pm: So give us your reasoning for why those with the most wind and solar are among the most expensive. The expense is in the firming (storage), and the new transmission required. Solar and wind, as power sources, are the cheapest form of new generation.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #391 - Mar 8^th, 2023 at 4:02pm thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 3:13pm: The expense is in the firming (storage), and the new transmission required. Solar and wind, as power sources, are the cheapest form of new generation. So what you are saying, without saying it. is solar and wind are cheap until you factor in the necessary storage costs.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #392 - Mar 8^th, 2023 at 4:32pm

lee wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 4:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 3:13pm:

The expense is in the firming (storage), and the new transmission required. Solar and wind, as power sources, are the cheapest form of new generation.

So what you are saying, without saying it. is solar and wind are cheap until you factor in the necessary storage costs. Grin

Correct.

..."storage costs" being the necessary public infrastructure required to transition to a renewable economy.

And you know how the public sector CAN finance itself, if those infrastructure resources are available for purchase by the currency-issuing government ...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #393 - Mar 8^th, 2023 at 6:40pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 4:32pm:

..."storage costs" being the necessary public infrastructure required to transition to a renewable economy.

Yes. It is definitely a cost. Something you assiduously ignore as being of no moment because...MMT. That thing that hasn't been tried but it will work absolutely because you say so. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #394 - Mar 9^th, 2023 at 9:06am

lee wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 6:40pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 8^th, 2023 at 4:32pm:

..."storage costs" being the necessary public infrastructure required to transition to a renewable economy.

Yes. It is definitely a cost.

in fact it's an "opportunity cost" - in resources used, not a money 'cost' for a currency-issuing government.

Quote:

Something you assiduously ignore as being of no moment

Addressed head on, above: available resources, not money.

Quote:

because...MMT. That thing that hasn't been tried but it will work absolutely because you say so. Grin

Note this tweet today from Dr. Steven Hail (MMT lecturer at Torrens university):

@StevenHailAus
The world's central bankers are essentially incompetent, because they are biased by their model, which is an unrealistic and abstract one, and are largely immune to an objective assessment of empirical evidence, even when they have gathered that evidence themselves.

Oh dear: neoclassical economic orthodoxy is "abstract and unrealistic"....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #395 - Mar 9^th, 2023 at 11:29am

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 9:06am:

Note this tweet today from Dr. Steven Hail (MMT lecturer at Torrens university):

@StevenHailAus
The world's central bankers are essentially incompetent, because they are biased by their model, which is an unrealistic and abstract one, and are largely immune to an objective assessment of empirical evidence, even when they have gathered that evidence themselves.

So an MMT is calling out Central Bankers. It doesn't make the MMT'ers better by default. Although, we know how little you know about things economic, like taxes. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #396 - Mar 9^th, 2023 at 12:20pm

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 11:29am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 9:06am:

Note this tweet today from Dr. Steven Hail (MMT lecturer at Torrens university):

@StevenHailAus
The world's central bankers are essentially incompetent, because they are biased by their model, which is an unrealistic and abstract one, and are largely immune to an objective assessment of empirical evidence, even when they have gathered that evidence themselves.

So an MMT is calling out Central Bankers. It doesn't make the MMT'ers better by default. Although, we know how little you know about things economic, like taxes. Roll Eyes

You mean, you still believe the fiction that currency-issuing governments must tax or borrow in order to spend, even after the pandemic revealed Lowe buying back govt. bonds at the rate of $20 billion/month during the pandemic lockdowns....which of course Lowe himself lied about:

http://www.rossgittins.com/2021/03/funding-budget-by-printing-money-is.html

Last month it decided to buy another $100 billion worth. Under questioning by Labor’s Dr Andrew Leigh at the parliamentary committee, Lowe and his deputy, Dr Guy Debelle, revealed that $80 billion of the first $100 billion had gone on federal (as opposed to state) government bonds, which represented about 10 per cent of the feds’ entire stock of bonds outstanding.

The further $100 billion would take the Reserve’s holding of the feds’ total debt to 20 per cent. If there was yet another $100 billion purchase after the second, that would take its holding to 30 per cent. With the Reserve buying second-hand bonds at the steady rate of $5 billion a week, it was buying more than the new bonds the government was issuing to fund its huge budget deficit, Debelle revealed.

In his opening statement to the committee, Lowe insisted that “the RBA does not, and will not, directly finance governments. The bonds we own will have to be repaid in the same way as if they were owned by others.

“We are lowering the cost of finance for governments – as we are for all borrowers – but we are not providing direct finance. There remains a strong separation between monetary and fiscal [budgetary] policy,” he said.

That last sentence is the key to why Lowe is drawing such fine distinctions. Fiscal policy is controlled by the politicians, whereas monetary policy is controlled by the Reserve, which is independent of the elected government.

The Reserve is buying all these second-hand bonds of its own volition, and doing so because it believes QE is part of monetary policy’s best contribution to getting people back in jobs. It’s not acting under any directive from the government to fund its deficit directly. So the problem of the pollies continuing to spend beyond the point where this becomes inflationary doesn’t arise.

All true. But Lowe can’t suspend the truth that money is “fungible” – all dollars are interchangeable. Funding the deficit indirectly rather than directly may be important from the perspective of good governance, but from the perspective of the economic effect, they’re the same.

Of course the reserve HAD to create dollars ex nihilo, to avoid locked-down workers starving to death....no taxes required...

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« Last Edit: Mar 9^th, 2023 at 12:36pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #397 - Mar 9^th, 2023 at 12:52pm http://www.rossgittins.com/2021/03/funding-budget-by-printing-money-is.html Funny how, you, like a dog returning to its vomit, keep quoting MMT'ers.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #398 - Mar 9^th, 2023 at 1:07pm

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 12:52pm:

http://www.rossgittins.com/2021/03/funding-budget-by-printing-money-is.html

Funny how, you, like a dog returning to its vomit, keep quoting MMT'ers. Roll Eyes

Not MMTers, just mainstream journalists with a brain, which you are sadly lacking as proved by your refusal to acknowledge the difference between resource opportunity costs and your supposed 'money' costs - which are immaterial to a currency-issuer so long as the resources are available for purchase.

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« Last Edit: Mar 9^th, 2023 at 2:26pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #399 - Mar 9^th, 2023 at 2:44pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 1:07pm:

Not MMTers, just mainstream journalists with a brain, which you are sadly lacking as proved by your refusal to acknowledge the difference between resource opportunity costs and your supposed 'money' costs - which are immaterial to a currency-issuer so long as the resources are available for purchase.

Oh dear. Now we have the infallible journalists. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #400 - Mar 9^th, 2023 at 5:58pm

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 2:44pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 1:07pm:

Not MMTers, just mainstream journalists with a brain, which you are sadly lacking as proved by your refusal to acknowledge the difference between resource opportunity costs and your supposed 'money' costs - which are immaterial to a currency-issuer so long as the resources are available for purchase.

Oh dear. Now we have the infallible journalists. Grin

And you still showing your lack of capacity for reasoned analysis.

'Resource opportunity costs'...oh never mind....

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #401 - Mar 9^th, 2023 at 6:02pm thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 5:58pm: And you still showing your lack of capacity for reasoned analysis. Nope. You are trying to push an unvalidated theory on everyone. Tell us when MMT becomes THE thing in ANY country.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #402 - Mar 26^th, 2023 at 8:38pm

From another forum:

On top of closing our coal power stations, this is why we have energy shortages.

One petajoule (PJ) of gas, equals 1 000 000 000 000 000 (1015) joules. Joule is a unit of energy equalling 0.24 calories. 1 PJ = 31.6 million m³ of natural gas or 278 million kilowatt hours of electricity.
We export some 5000+ Petajoules of natural gas.... 158,000,000,000m3 of natural gas... which equates to roughly 1,390,000,000,000kw hours of electricity.
That is 1 trillion, 390 billion kw hours of electricity.
49.1 billion worth.
But it's all Russia's fault remember.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #403 - Mar 27^th, 2023 at 11:35am

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 6:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 9^th, 2023 at 5:58pm:

And you still showing your lack of capacity for reasoned analysis.

Nope. You are trying to push an unvalidated theory on everyone. Tell us when MMT becomes THE thing in ANY country. Roll Eyes

hey...now in the USA!

Biden and Trump both know the US debt is meaningless, but they prefer to keep the population in the dark so they can push their own agendas, inc. 'America First', and to maximize the claims of the wealthy on the nation's output.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #404 - Mar 27^th, 2023 at 3:04pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 27^th, 2023 at 11:35am:

hey...now in the USA!

Biden and Trump both know the US debt is meaningless, but they prefer to keep the population in the dark so they can push their own agendas, inc. 'America First', and to maximize the claims of the wealthy on the nation's output.

And now NOT in the USA. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #405 - Mar 27^th, 2023 at 3:36pm

lee wrote on Mar 27^th, 2023 at 3:04pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 27^th, 2023 at 11:35am:

hey...now in the USA!

Biden and Trump both know the US debt is meaningless, but they prefer to keep the population in the dark so they can push their own agendas, inc. 'America First', and to maximize the claims of the wealthy on the nation's output.

And now NOT in the USA. Roll Eyes

Wrong: the debt is ignored, while mainstream economists advise polies how to reduce the debt....hence the games re raising the "debt ceiling" every 5 years or so.

And central bankers bask in the obfuscation:

https://www.jordantimes.com/opinion/james-k-galbraith/whos-afraid-mmt

As anyone who has ever been responsible for legislative oversight of central bankers knows, they do not like to have their authority challenged. Most of all, they will defend their mystique, that magical aura that hovers over their words, shrouding a slushy mix of banality and baloney in a mist of power and jargon.

As a result, tormenting central bankers is great fun. John Maynard Keynes famously tormented Montagu Norman, Governor of the Bank of England (BOE) from 1920 to 1944. Wright Patman and Henry Reuss, two US congressmen who chaired the House Banking Committee in the 1970s, did the same to Federal Reserve Chair Arthur Burns. I know that Reuss enjoyed it; I assisted him at the time.

Your cover is in the process of being blown...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #406 - Mar 27^th, 2023 at 5:05pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 27^th, 2023 at 3:36pm:

Wrong: the debt is ignored, while mainstream economists advise polies how to reduce the debt....hence the games re raising the "debt ceiling" every 5 years or so.

And central bankers bask in the obfuscation:

Ho hum. just another reminder that MMT rules ok? Grin

Just another unproven hypothesis trying to get Theory status. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #407 - Mar 28^th, 2023 at 2:17pm

lee wrote on Mar 27^th, 2023 at 5:05pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 27^th, 2023 at 3:36pm:

Wrong: the debt is ignored, while mainstream economists advise polies how to reduce the debt....hence the games re raising the "debt ceiling" every 5 years or so.

And central bankers bask in the obfuscation:

Ho hum. just another reminder that MMT rules ok? Grin

Just another unproven hypothesis trying to get Theory status. Roll Eyes

Just an indication your neoclassical orthodoxy in on its death bed...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #408 - Apr 28^th, 2023 at 3:58pm

https://www.facebook.com/PaulineHansonAu/videos/551059457140459/

watch the video.

Anthony Albanese won't admit it when the cameras are on but Labor and the Greens are in a Coalition Government. Now the Greens are calling in their debts and it's you, the taxpayer, not Albanese, who will be forced to pay the price. Power plants are closing with nothing ready to replace them, electricity bills are going up, jobs are going overseas, and hundreds of thousands of migrants are being shipped into our overcrowded cities. Taxes are going up, red and green tape is increasing, the Greens are cheering, and all Albanese can talk about is his race-based Voice. Mark my words, if you are a Greens voter, one day you will wake up to yourself and realise the damage you have done. You will realise you fell for the Greens con and what they promised hasn't been delivered. Sadly, I fear that things will have to get a lot worse before people realise the mistake they are making. With Albanese and the Greens in charge, this might be sooner than you realise.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 51474 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #409 - Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:19pm Pauline LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Back to top	OzPolitic needs a >real< Environment MRB now! OzPolitic needs a >real< Food MRB now! OzPolitic needs a >real< Health MRB now! OzPolitic needs a >real< Economics MRB now! Topics in the right MRB! IP Logged

Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #410 - Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:21pm Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:19pm: Pauline LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Do you have a constructive comment backed by some form of argument?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #411 - Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:26pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 3:58pm:

https://www.facebook.com/PaulineHansonAu/videos/551059457140459/

watch the video.

Anthony Albanese won't admit it when the cameras are on but Labor and the Greens are in a Coalition Government. Now the Greens are calling in their debts and it's you, the taxpayer, not Albanese, who will be forced to pay the price. Power plants are closing with nothing ready to replace them, electricity bills are going up, jobs are going overseas, and hundreds of thousands of migrants are being shipped into our overcrowded cities. Taxes are going up, red and green tape is increasing, the Greens are cheering, and all Albanese can talk about is his race-based Voice. Mark my words, if you are a Greens voter, one day you will wake up to yourself and realise the damage you have done. You will realise you fell for the Greens con and what they promised hasn't been delivered. Sadly, I fear that things will have to get a lot worse before people realise the mistake they are making. With Albanese and the Greens in charge, this might be sooner than you realise.

Don't worry Bobby. I pointed out to Adam Bandt the other day that if he wants to fund sufficient public housing (other than via Labor's silly 'housing fund' stock-market gamble), he will have to look at what the heterodox economists are saying - because raising taxes is a political dead-end.

The Greens will come around sooner or later, as they get sick of their primary vote stuck c.10%, because everyone - like you - thinks currency-issuing governments are constrained by debt just like households, meaning the electorate is forced tp accept continuing government 'austerity'. .....

Flat earth neoliberal economics in full deranged flight..

Note: Oz has all the workers and materials it needs to build the public housing units it needs, therefore there will be no 'demand' inflation caused by the public spending.

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« Last Edit: Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:31pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #412 - Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:29pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:26pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 3:58pm:

https://www.facebook.com/PaulineHansonAu/videos/551059457140459/

watch the video.

Anthony Albanese won't admit it when the cameras are on but Labor and the Greens are in a Coalition Government. Now the Greens are calling in their debts and it's you, the taxpayer, not Albanese, who will be forced to pay the price. Power plants are closing with nothing ready to replace them, electricity bills are going up, jobs are going overseas, and hundreds of thousands of migrants are being shipped into our overcrowded cities. Taxes are going up, red and green tape is increasing, the Greens are cheering, and all Albanese can talk about is his race-based Voice. Mark my words, if you are a Greens voter, one day you will wake up to yourself and realise the damage you have done. You will realise you fell for the Greens con and what they promised hasn't been delivered. Sadly, I fear that things will have to get a lot worse before people realise the mistake they are making. With Albanese and the Greens in charge, this might be sooner than you realise.

Don't worry Bobby. I pointed out to Adam Bandt the other day that if he wants to fund sufficient public housing (other than via Labor's silly 'housing fund' stock-market gamble), he will have to look at what the heterodox economists are saying - because raising taxes is a political dead-end.

The Greens will come around sooner or later, as they get sick of their primary vote support stuck c.10%, because everyone - like you - thinks currency-issuing governments are constrained by debt just like households, meaning the electorate is forced tp accept continuing governement 'austerity'. .....

Whenever they print money it causes inflation.
They can't keep doing that but they will.
It means those with savings are wiped out
and the Govt will have to support them -
no more self funded retirees.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #413 - Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:34pm Bobby. wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:29pm: Whenever they print money it causes inflation. see my edit: "Note: Oz has all the workers and materials it needs to build the public housing units it needs, therefore there will be no 'demand' inflation caused by the public spending."
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #414 - Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:40pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:29pm:

Whenever they print money it causes inflation.

see my edit:

"Note: Oz has all the workers and materials it needs to build the public housing units it needs, therefore there will be no 'demand' inflation caused by the public spending."

Every dollar they print causes inflation.

Anyway - it's off topic.

This is about the closure of more and more coal fired power stations
without enough renewables to compensate.
Already power prices have doubled and tripled -
the Greens are destroying Australia.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #415 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 3:35pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:40pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 4:29pm:

Whenever they print money it causes inflation.

see my edit:

"Note: Oz has all the workers and materials it needs to build the public housing units it needs, therefore there will be no 'demand' inflation caused by the public spending."

Every dollar they print causes inflation.

That's known as QTM (quantity theory of money)

It's false; see:

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/480#480

#478

Quote:

Anyway - it's off topic.

It's particularly relevent to the Greens, who have all the desirable policies, but don't know how to pay for them - given the public's reluctance to pay increased taxes.

Quote:

This is about the closure of more and more coal fired power stations without enough renewables to compensate.
Already power prices have doubled and tripled -
the Greens are destroying Australia

Unfortunately the Greens aren't yet prepared to teach the public** there are no purely financial constraints on the OZ treasury funding the necessary rollout of renewables infrastructure - including the transmission upgrade, ASAP.

ie fast enough to keep pace with and eventually overtake the closure of fossil plants.

After which power prices plummet.....

**because they are concerned they won't win votes from the public who know nothing about money, like you.
But it's a losing strategy in the long run, because Green policies can't be implemented under present neoclassical "dismal science" - balanced government budget dogma.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #416 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 4:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 3:35pm:

ie fast enough to keep pace with and eventually overtake the closure of fossil plants.

After which power prices plummet.....

Oh only then. that explains prices ramping up in line with renewables. And then of course replacement. But don't worry "MMT will fix it". Grin

And of course China is the main supplier of renewables. European suppliers of wind turbines are going broke. But they use FF power by and large. Strangely the percentages for Australia are all over the place. 18.9% to 39%. I guess the 39% is installed capacity (nameplate) rather than that actually generated and used.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #417 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:03pm

lee wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 3:35pm:

ie fast enough to keep pace with and eventually overtake the closure of fossil plants.

After which power prices plummet.....

But don't worry "MMT will fix it".

Well... if AGW is real and things really get nasty, it's nice to know we can sack the current crop of gruesome neoclassical dead-heads, and get on with the transition to renewables ASAP.

Otherwise we are stuck with the present political circus advocating policies ranging from doing nothing, to begging Woodside and Chevron to be nice...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #418 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:11pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:03pm:

Well... if AGW is real and things really get nasty, it's nice to know we can sack the current crop of gruesome neoclassical dead-heads, and get on with the transition to renewables ASAP.

So says the numpty who has NO engineering whatsoever. Engineering can't do the impossible, merely the difficult. The Laws of Physics says so. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:03pm:

Otherwise we are stuck with the present political circus advocating policies ranging from doing nothing, to begging Woodside and Chevron to be nice...

You forgot all the green "ideas". Woodside and Chevron already set aside 15% for WA. Perhaps it is time for the east coast to do something instead of whinging about GST. They have banned fracking and mining when they have the wherewithal to overcome their problems. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #419 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:30pm

lee wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:11pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:03pm:

Well... if AGW is real and things really get nasty, it's nice to know we can sack the current crop of gruesome neoclassical dead-heads, and get on with the transition to renewables ASAP.

So says the numpty who has NO engineering whatsoever. Engineering can't do the impossible, merely the difficult. The Laws of Physics says so. Roll Eyes

Hey ....Olympic Dam alone has enough uranium to power the globe in a decade. China and India are on board.

Quote:

You forgot all the green "ideas". Woodside and Chevron.....

But W and C don't want to contribute toward the necessary taxes - given the current gruesome neoclassical orthodoxy - required to 'pay for' the transition.

Quote:

already set aside 15% for WA. Perhaps it is time for the east coast to do something instead of whinging about GST. They have banned fracking and mining when they have the wherewithal to overcome their problems. Roll Eyes

[/quote]

So the Oz public will have to pay to extract its own resources, while the fossil companies make huge profits on the back of global prices.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #420 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

But W and C don't want to contribute toward the necessary taxes - given the current gruesome neoclassical orthodoxy - required to 'pay for' the transition.

What taxes don't they pay? The transition is a chimera. The renewables don't have enough energy density.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

So the Oz public will have to pay to extract its own resources, while the fossil companies make huge profits on the back of global prices.

No the ff companies can do it, pay the associated royalties. It just takes the will to tell companies that they must set aside a percentage for domestic consumption, as has happened in WA.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #421 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:59pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 3:35pm:

Unfortunately the Greens aren't yet prepared to teach the public** there are no purely financial constraints on the OZ treasury funding the necessary rollout of renewables infrastructure - including the transmission upgrade, ASAP.

ie fast enough to keep pace with and eventually overtake the closure of fossil plants.

After which power prices plummet.....

**because they are concerned they won't win votes from the public who know nothing about money, like you.
But it's a losing strategy in the long run, because Green policies can't be implemented under present neoclassical "dismal science" - balanced government budget dogma.

The Green's ideas are collapsing before our eyes as
coal fired power stations are blown up or closed
and there is no sufficient renewable capacity to supply our needs -
and power prices have doubled and even tripled.

Be prepared for power blackouts.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #422 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:03pm

lee wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

But W and C don't want to contribute toward the necessary taxes - given the current gruesome neoclassical orthodoxy - required to 'pay for' the transition.

What taxes don't they pay?

Fair taxes on the privilege of making profits on our resources.

Quote:

The transition is a chimera. The renewables don't have enough energy density.

The public don't believe you; E = mc2, and the Sahara can power the globe, regardless of energy density. There's already twice as much power as the globe needs.
Quote:

No the ff companies can do it, pay the associated royalties. It just takes the will to tell companies that they must set aside a percentage for domestic consumption, as has happened in WA.

The public don't like fracking which is the only remaining source of gas in the Oz east coast; hence it's time to start cancelling some of those overseas contracts, until ffs can be closed down all togeher.

Get ready for standed assets everywhere....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #423 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:07pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:59pm:

The Green's ideas are collapsing before our eyes as
coal fired power stations are blown up or closed
and there is no sufficient renewable capacity to supply our needs -
and power prices have doubled and even tripled.

Be prepared for power blackouts.

Well...isn't that what I said?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #424 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:10pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:07pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 5:59pm:

The Green's ideas are collapsing before our eyes as
coal fired power stations are blown up or closed
and there is no sufficient renewable capacity to supply our needs -
and power prices have doubled and even tripled.

Be prepared for power blackouts.

Well...isn't that what I said?

Good - we agree.

Channel 7 news just now.
Millions of people will be forced into poverty due to power prices this winter.
They won't be able to afford heating.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #425 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:45pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:03pm:

Fair taxes on the privilege of making profits on our resources.

So apart from PRRT, Royalties to state governments which own the assets and company and employment taxes; what should they pay? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:03pm:

The public don't believe you; E = mc2, and the Sahara can power the globe, regardless of energy density. There's already twice as much power as the globe needs.

The public are in the main part deluded into believing the green dream. If there is twice as much power as the world needs why do we have blackouts, brownouts etc. It obviously isn't available when required. Roll Eyes

So how much does the Sahara need to power? How many GW? Storage in GWh?

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:03pm:

The public don't like fracking which is the only remaining source of gas in the Oz east coast; hence it's time to start cancelling some of those overseas contracts, until ffs can be closed down all togeher.

Ok. So you want overseas contracts curtailed. And who will pay the huge sums of compensation when they don't get product. It can't be the seller, they are willing. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:03pm:

Get ready for standed assets everywhere....

Stranded assets only occur if there is no market. So far not one country has achieved nirvana of not needing fossil fuels. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #426 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 11:23pm

lee wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:45pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:03pm:

Fair taxes on the privilege of making profits on our resources.

So apart from PRRT, Royalties to state governments which own the assets and company and employment taxes; what should they pay? Roll Eyes

A PRRT which actually amounts to real money - note: the Qatar state earned $25 billion from its gas exports last year, Oz with a similar volume earned.... peanuts.

"In the decade prior to the opening of the Gladstone LNG port when Australia’s LNG exports soared, company taxes and the petroleum resource rent tax (PRRT) paid by the industry averaged about 15% of revenue. Since then, it has averaged 6%, and was just 3.3% in 2019-20."

Quote:

The public are in the main part deluded into believing the green dream.

True, so suck it up....

Quote:

If there is twice as much power as the world needs why do we have blackouts, brownouts etc. It obviously isn't available when required. Roll Eyes

because ff companies are resisting the rollout of renewables, and governments think they can't fund a fast rollout without private sector support - the same private sector who are resisting the rollout of renewables...you get the picture.

Quote:

So how much does the Sahara need to power? How many GW? Storage in GWh?

Let's start with Europe, to determine how much, and then keep going. Meanwhile China is rolling out nuclear at an impressive rate.

Quote:

Ok. So you want overseas contracts curtailed. And who will pay the huge sums of compensation when they don't get product. It can't be the seller, they are willing. Roll Eyes

Russia and the ME have vast reserves of cheaper gas (easiier to mine) than Oz.

Quote:

Stranded assets only occur if there is no market. So far not one country has achieved nirvana of not needing fossil fuels. Roll Eyes

Patience dear fellow. The green energy mania is steadily increasing...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #427 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:03pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 11:23pm:

A PRRT which actually amounts to real money - note: the Qatar state earned $25 billion from its gas exports last year, Oz with a similar volume earned.... peanuts.

Qatar only made that much from a state owned monopoly? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 11:23pm:

In the decade prior to the opening of the Gladstone LNG port when Australia’s LNG exports soared, company taxes and the petroleum resource rent tax (PRRT) paid by the industry averaged about 15% of revenue. Since then, it has averaged 6%, and was just 3.3% in 2019-20."

BIG discrepancy. PRRT ALONE in 2022 was $926 million. Try comparing apples to donuts, instead of apples to dung. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 11:23pm:

True, so suck it up....

I am glad you agree that they are deluded. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #428 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:48pm

lee wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:03pm:

Qatar only made that much from a state owned monopoly? Roll Eyes

Which just goes to show how the state can collect $25billion/year on gas exports alone, when you cut out the greedy ff companies. While Oz gains peanuts. .

Quote:

BIG discrepancy. PRRT ALONE in 2022 was $926 million. Try comparing apples to donuts, instead of apples to dung. Roll Eyes

That's right: peanuts.

Quote:

I am glad you agree that they are deluded.

Nah...I'm riding on AGW to achieve a better world with cheap, clean power, regardless of its veracity.

btw, re engineering the transition to 100% renewables:

https://profstevekeen.substack.com/p/the-fast-track-to-net-zero?utm_source=subst...

The Fast Track to Net Zero

"There is no engineering obstacle".

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #429 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:36pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:48pm:

Which just goes to show how the state can collect $25billion/year on gas exports alone, when you cut out the greedy ff companies. While Oz gains peanuts. .

So how would you do it? Proclaim eminent domain and simply strip assets? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:48pm:

That's right: peanuts.

No it is not.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:48pm:

Nah...I'm riding on AGW to achieve a better world with cheap, clean power, regardless of its veracity.

But you did agree that they were deluded.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 11:23pm:

Quote:
The public are in the main part deluded into believing the green dream.

True, so suck it up....

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:48pm:

https://profstevekeen.substack.com/p/the-fast-track-to-net-zero?
utm_source=subst...

The Fast Track to Net Zero

So let's look at that. From the UK -

Quote:

No bricks, the walls and foundations made of compacted earth, cement made from clay and glass scavenged from demolition skips are just some of the construction changes needed to comply with Net Zero by 2050. The latest paper from Government-funded U.K. FIRES looks to “minimise new construction”, and notes the shape of the urban environment will change, allowing for “denser living and reduced transport needs”.

The latest U.K. FIRES paper seems to have slipped out quietly at the end of last year and has to date attracted little publicity. But the group, which comprises a number of academics led by Cambridge engineering professor Julian Allwood, made headlines around the world recently with previous work noting that all flying and shipping must stop by 2050, beef and lamb must be banned, and only 60% of energy will be available to cook food and heat homes. The group, which receives £5 million from Government sources, is interesting because it bases its recommendations on the brutal, and many would argue honest, reality of absolute Net Zero. It does not assume that technological processes still to be perfected or even invented will somehow lead to minimal disturbance in comfortable industrialised lifestyles. It could be further argued that its continued existence and pronouncements are important, since they highlight the dishonesty and deceit that surrounds many other Net Zero promoters.

U.K. FIRES sees the future of construction based on stone, earth and timber, along with components “reused and repurposed” from demolition. Recycled steel, cement and bricks can be used, although this will be “constrained” – rationed might be a better word – by a supply of “non-emitting electricity under high demand”. Transformational construction changes will take longer to achieve, state the authors, but the U.K.’s ambitious target of a 45% reduction in emissions by 2030, “can only be achieved through reduced material demand”.

Building without bricks is an interesting suggestion and over two billion are currently produced each year. But bricks require high firing temperatures, and the enormous cost of Net Zero energy makes them uneconomic to produce. Cement also requires energy to make but it can be mixed with calcined clay. Nevertheless, calcined clay is also energy intensive and can only supplement 50% of Portland cement. “As a result, the mass low-cost consumption of concrete will no longer exist,” the authors note. Together, bricks and cement generate annual turnover of over £10 billion. Rammed earth, which can be used for foundation screeds and walls, is said to be a proven and potentially zero emission alternative, “which can utilise abundant local materials”.

Glass looks to be a complete no-no, with production requiring temperatures of 1,700°C and producing additional process emissions which cannot be avoided by electrification. Only recycled glass seems to be acceptable for the absolutist authors, so the need for complete circularity, “will somewhat constrain the supply of glass”. However, add the authors helpfully, this will “encourage direct re-use and reconditioning of glass panels from demolition sites”.

Steel is widely used in modern construction due to its large load-bearing properties. Around the world, recycled steel accounts for about a third of current production. To have zero emissions from producing steel relies on energy-intensive carbon capture and storage technology, which the authors observe, with their customary honesty, “is unlikely to be economical by 2050”. In the U.K., 85% of steel is already recycled, and it is explained that the Net Zero transition will heavily restrict its supply. Recycling of aluminium is said to be the “preferred zero emission compatible pathway”, and this will lead to “higher prices due to a restricted supply of the material”.

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/04/28/no-bricks-no-glass-no-cement-what-net-zero-2...

So tell us of the engineering feats of Steve Keen. Tell us how he imagines using 60% of the current available power whilst increasing grid draw due to EV's.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #430 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:58pm

lee wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:36pm:

So how would you do it? Proclaim eminent domain and simply strip assets? Roll Eyes

You mean nationalize the FF industry, close it down ASAP, and transfer all the assets? Indeed.

Note: Norway has just announced plans to nationalize its entire gas pipeline network, on the way to the ff industry's eventual closure.

Quote:

No it is not.

Might pay for the Hobart football oval; whereas $25 billion can pay for lifting JS (though the government should be abolishing JS and offering suitable paid training at TAFE, if actual jobs aren't available).

Quote:

But you did agree that they were deluded.

Did I? I thought I said "regardless of its veracity..." Too subtle for you?

Quote:

So let's look at that. From the UK -

The article isn't from some delusional neoclassical outfit in the UK...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #431 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 4:06pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:58pm:

You mean nationalize the FF industry, close it down ASAP, and transfer all the assets? Indeed.

So what happens to investment in Australia generally once that is done? It would make us a trading partner no-one would want.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:58pm:

Might pay for the Hobart football oval; whereas $25 billion can pay for lifting JS (though the government should be abolishing JS and offering suitable paid training at TAFE, if actual jobs aren't available).

So if jobs aren't available, what is the point of training? You want a more qualified dole? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:58pm:

Did I? I thought I said "regardless of its veracity..." Too subtle for you?

You can't even lie straight.lee wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:03pm:

thegreatdivide wrote Yesterday at 9:23pm:
True, so suck it up....

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:58pm:

The article isn't from some delusional neoclassical outfit in the UK...

"Our Vision

With fewer than thirty years to attain zero emissions, UK FIRES is uncovering the lowest risk path to zero emissions prosperity in the UK by 2050 by:-

Optimizing current industrial techniques with new decision making tools
Uncovering gaps in the business space to be filled in by entrepreneurship, finance and policy
Extensive public engagement through innovative communication channels"

Edit: "Every year since 1990, the reference date of the Climate Change act, the cars on the roads of the UK have become heavier, internal temperatures in winter have risen, the rate at which we discard goods and buildings has increased and the number of flights we’ve taken has increased. This makes no sense. With fewer than thirty years left, UK FIRES is revealing the lowest risk path to zero emissions prosperity in the UK by 2050."

https://ukfires.org/our-vision/

So you are right it "isn't from some delusional neoclassical outfit in the UK" Roll Eyes

But you didn't tell us about Keen's Engineering qualifications. Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2023 at 4:13pm by lee »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #432 - May 1^st, 2023 at 9:23am

lee wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 4:06pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:58pm:

You mean nationalize the FF industry, close it down ASAP, and transfer all the assets? Indeed.

So what happens to investment in Australia generally once that is done? It would make us a trading partner no-one would want.

Er....you said Qatar has a state-owned gas industry.

Quote:

So if jobs aren't available, what is the point of training? You want a more qualified dole? ::

There are lots of jobs available but Coalition dead-heads defunded TAFE, preferring to bring in cheap overseas labor.
Note: there is always useful work to be done, govt can always act as employer of last resort.(ELR)

https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/the-case-for-a-job-guarantee/

Quote:

"Our Vision

With fewer than thirty years to attain zero emissions, UK FIRES is uncovering the lowest risk path to zero emissions prosperity in the UK by 2050 by:-

Optimizing current industrial techniques with new decision making tools
Uncovering gaps in the business space to be filled in by entrepreneurship, finance and policy
Extensive public engagement through innovative communication channels"

Edit: "Every year since 1990, the reference date of the Climate Change act, the cars on the roads of the UK have become heavier, internal temperatures in winter have risen, the rate at which we discard goods and buildings has increased and the number of flights we’ve taken has increased. This makes no sense. With fewer than thirty years left, UK FIRES is revealing the lowest risk path to zero emissions prosperity in the UK by 2050."

https://ukfires.org/our-vision/

So you are right it "isn't from some delusional neoclassical outfit in the UK" Roll Eyes

The highlighted: we need much more public sector engagement ie mandated activity; the profit-seeking private sector won't "uncover gaps in the business space", without public sector assurances and planning.

Quote:

But you didn't tell us about Keen's Engineering qualifications. Roll Eyes

Keen was the messenger for the engineers.

PS you still don't get that I'm agnostic on AGW, but pro clean (ie, non-polluting, apart from CO2 emissions), cheap global energy.

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« Last Edit: May 1^st, 2023 at 9:32am by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #433 - May 1^st, 2023 at 6:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:23am:

Er....you said Qatar has a state-owned gas industry.

Yes. Did you have a point? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:23am:

There are lots of jobs available but Coalition dead-heads defunded TAFE, preferring to bring in cheap overseas labor.
Note: there is always useful work to be done, govt can always act as employer of last resort.(ELR)

Ah yes the MMT wet dream. It will probably be your only means of employment.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:23am:

The highlighted: we need much more public sector engagement ie mandated activity; the profit-seeking private sector won't "uncover gaps in the business space", without public sector assurances and planning.

But if Renewables are so cheap and so profitable, why is there lack of action? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:23am:

Keen was the messenger for the engineers.

He was? Did he bring it down the mountain on tablets of stone? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:23am:

PS you still don't get that I'm agnostic on AGW, but pro clean (ie, non-polluting, apart from CO2 emissions), cheap global energy.

And yet you still can't quantify the amount of renewables needed or the storage. But apparently the Sahara will cover it despite dust and sand storms. And of course the highly paid workers to keep them clean. Water? Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #434 - May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm

lee wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 6:25pm:

Did you have a point? Roll Eyes

Yes - nationalization of energy is the way to go; Qatar gets $25 billion, Oz gets peanuts as private price-gougers retain most of the profits from OUR resources.

Quote:

Ah yes the MMT wet dream. It will probably be your only means of employment.

Er ....Pavlina presumably doesn't have "wet dreams" ....

Quote:

But if Renewables are so cheap and so profitable, why is there lack of action? Roll Eyes

Because the private sector is hindering the required infrastructure rollout, in order to protect private sector profits.

Quote:

He was? Did he bring it down the mountain on tablets of stone? Grin

No, he read the engineers' reports, and refuted the neoclassical deadheads assertion that we "can't afford" said engineering.

Quote:

And yet you still can't quantify the amount of renewables needed or the storage. But apparently the Sahara will cover it despite dust and sand storms. And of course the highly paid workers to keep them clean. Water? Roll Eyes

That's the engineering-costing department's job.

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« Last Edit: May 1^st, 2023 at 9:10pm by thegreatdivide »

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #435 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 7:31am
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #437 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:01pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

Yes - nationalization of energy is the way to go; Qatar gets $25 billion, Oz gets peanuts as private price-gougers retain most of the profits from OUR resources.

Seeing as the resources are held by the states, which ones are YOURS? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

Er ....Pavlina presumably doesn't have "wet dreams" ....

So she's not a woman? Oh dear. But tell us how she knows about jobs, apart from writing a book. Never had a real job. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

Because the private sector is hindering the required infrastructure rollout, in order to protect private sector profits.

But the investors are the private sector and if the returns are so good, why aren't they piling in? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

o, he read the engineers' reports, and refuted the neoclassical deadheads assertion that we "can't afford" said engineering.

Then of course you can link to the engineers reports. And don't forget Snowy 2.0 delayed again and costing more again.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

That's the engineering-costing department's job.

But you just said keen has got this all covered having read the reports. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #438 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm

lee wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:01pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

Yes - nationalization of energy is the way to go; Qatar gets $25 billion, Oz gets peanuts as private price-gougers retain most of the profits from OUR resources.

Seeing as the resources are held by the states, which ones are YOURS? Roll Eyes

The federal governement is the chief financier of the states. Oz resources belong to all Oz citizens.

( grasping for straws? - I suppose the old states' rights shiboleth was worth a try...)

Quote:

So she's not a woman? Oh dear. But tell us how she knows about jobs, apart from writing a book. Never had a real job. Roll Eyes

"Can people who have vaginas experience wet dreams? Absolutely! Though the abundance of research and literature out there on wet dreams may make it seem as if only teenage penis owners have them.20 Jan 2022 [/quote]

(Oh...never mind). But her understanding of economics and employment is sound, nothing to do with "wet dreams".

Quote:

But the investors are the private sector and if the returns are so good, why aren't they piling in? Roll Eyes

That's the problem, they are only interested in profits, and there isn't as much profit in free sunshine and wind....

Quote:

Then of course you can link to the engineers reports. And don't forget Snowy 2.0 delayed again and costing more again.

Just shows the Oz govt. can't build anything after decades of privatization.

China would have completed it on budget and on time a decade ago.

Quote:

But you just said keen has got this all covered having read the reports. Roll Eyes

No , Keen is the economist pointing out the idiocy of interest-bearing debt-funding, for an essential public good.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #439 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:58pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 10:47am:

Bobby. wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 7:31am:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/136/687/453/original/6cb802...

Well......the numbers in Parliament say close the coal industry.

Pity about that...

But do we have the renewable energy resources to replace it right now?

Why has electricity doubled and tripled in price?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #440 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 6:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

( grasping for straws? - I suppose the old states' rights shiboleth was worth a try...)

So you don't know that the states own the resources within their boundaries. That doesn't shock me at all. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

(Oh...never mind). But her understanding of economics and employment is sound, nothing to do with "wet dreams".

And she has still never had a job outside academia. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

That's the problem, they are only interested in profits, and there isn't as much profit in free sunshine and wind....

Wrong. As they are in competition with FF, they only need to undercut by a small margin to make big profits. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

Just shows the Oz govt. can't build anything after decades of privatization.

Bu you want to rely on the Oz Gov't to build these things. Make up your mind. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

China would have completed it on budget and on time a decade ago.

Would they? Do you have proof? Their 3 Gorges dam ain't so hot.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

No , Keen is the economist pointing out the idiocy of interest-bearing debt-funding, for an essential public good.

So where is the evidence that he has looked at the cost and requirements? Roll Eyes

Oh, he has modelled it. Grin

"Modelling the energy and economic damage of climate change"

https://era.org.au/modelling-the-energy-and-economic-damage-of-climate-change/

Modelling isn't engineered. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #441 - May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am

lee wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 6:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

( grasping for straws? - I suppose the old states' rights shiboleth was worth a try...)

So you don't know that the states own the resources within their boundaries. That doesn't shock me at all. Roll Eyes

er...the "states" shouldn't exist at all (...Gough knew that).

Quote:

And she has still never had a job outside academia. Roll Eyes

Her job is full time exposing the insane NAIRU dogma of gruesome neoclassical ideologues like Philip Lowe.
Last night Alan Kohher observed that Lowe was deliberately trying to increase unemployment from 3.5% to 4.5%", to "manage" inflation.

Quote:

Wrong. As they are in competition with FF, they only need to undercut by a small margin to make big profits. Roll Eyes

After a solar farm is built, there are no profits - in a government-owned system.

Quote:

Bu you want to rely on the Oz Gov't to build these things.. Roll Eyes

Correct. So the govt. must relearn how to do it.

Quote:

Would they? Do you have proof? Their 3 Gorges dam ain't so hot.

https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/china-completes-constructi...

China completes construction of (world's) second biggest hydro plant (after the 3 gorges)

Quote:

So where is the evidence that he has looked at the cost and requirements? Roll Eyes

The engineers showed him the infrastructure can be built.

Keen's job is to inform gruesome neoclassical economists we can afford it...

Quote:

"Modelling the energy and economic damage of climate change"

https://era.org.au/modelling-the-energy-and-economic-damage-of-climate-change/

Modelling isn't engineered. Roll Eyes

AGW relies on modelling, economic reality doesn't.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #442 - May 3^rd, 2023 at 1:22pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

er...the "states" shouldn't exist at all (...Gough knew that).

And yet that's what you have. You would need a referendum to change that. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

Her job is full time exposing the insane NAIRU dogma of gruesome neoclassical ideologues like Philip Lowe.

Wow. They give anybody a job these days in universities. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

After a solar farm is built, there are no profits - in a government-owned system.

And no costs, no maintenance. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

Correct. So the govt. must relearn how to do it.

If the government has never learned it, then they can't re-learn. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/china-completes-constructi...

China completes construction of (world's) second biggest hydro plant (after the 3 gorges)

Nothing there about on time or on budget. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

The engineers showed him the infrastructure can be built.

But you said he knew the costs. How can you save if you don't know the costs.
I can build a boat. Doesn't mean it will float. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #443 - May 3^rd, 2023 at 2:43pm

lee wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 1:22pm:

And yet that's what you have. You would need a referendum to change that. Roll Eyes

But greedy 'states' rights' ideologues like you would block it.

Quote:

They give anybody a job these days in universities.

Obvious nonsense.

Quote:

And no costs, no maintenance

Wow ...a few maintenance workers - now there's an investment opportunity Black Rock will be interested in...

Quote:

If the government has never learned it, then they can't re-learn. Roll Eyes

The govt. built snowy 1, with the help of clever engineer refugees (funded by deficit spending), but later shut down its public engineering department after gruesome Thatcherite economics took hold.

Quote:

Nothing there about on time or on budget. Roll Eyes

In short, China poured more concrete 2010-2013 than the US did in the entire 20th century...

Quote:

But you said he knew the costs. How can you save if you don't know the costs.

No, your comprehension is poor. I said he knows HOW to pay for it, whatever the engineering-costing departments say it will cost.

Quote:

I can build a boat. Doesn't mean it will float. Roll Eyes

in your case, we can be sure it won't float....better buy one from china...

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« Last Edit: May 3^rd, 2023 at 2:51pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #444 - May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #445 - May 4^th, 2023 at 11:28am

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Well...the Greens are among the few actually following the IPCC recommendations.

Shouldn't you be condemning the IPCC instead?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #446 - May 4^th, 2023 at 11:36am

thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:28am:

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Well...the Greens are among the few actually following the IPCC recommendations.

Shouldn't you be condemning the IPCC instead?

The IPCC has gone easy on countries like China that contribute by far the most CO2.
Australia's CO2 is a drop in the ocean.

It's hypocrisy.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #447 - May 4^th, 2023 at 11:47am

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:36am:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:28am:

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Well...the Greens are among the few actually following the IPCC recommendations.

Shouldn't you be condemning the IPCC instead?

The IPCC has gone easy on countries like China that contribute by far the most CO2.
Australia's CO2 is a drop in the ocean.

It's hypocrisy.

I think its COP26 etc - forced to deal with political/economic realities of poverty in the developing world - rather than the IPCC, who are to 'blame'.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #448 - May 4^th, 2023 at 11:55am

thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:47am:

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:36am:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:28am:

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Well...the Greens are among the few actually following the IPCC recommendations.

Shouldn't you be condemning the IPCC instead?

The IPCC has gone easy on countries like China that contribute by far the most CO2.
Australia's CO2 is a drop in the ocean.

It's hypocrisy.

I think its COP26 etc - forced to deal with political/economic realities of poverty in the developing world - rather than the IPCC, who are to 'blame'.

So they give a blank cheque to China to do whatever they want?

Meanwhile we're in big trouble -
electricity has doubled and tripled in price -
some factories may have to close due to the cost of gas and other energy -
pensioners will have to survive the coming Winter without heating -
how many will die from the cold?

The Marxist Greens don't care.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #449 - May 4^th, 2023 at 12:26pm

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:55am:

So they give a blank cheque to China to do whatever they want?

Well, they have to ensure living standards in the developing world continue to rise during the transition.....

As for China, it's already the world's largest producer of renewables, but the need to lift its per capita income above current levels requires increasing coal consumption until renewables technology can replace coal.

In Oz we are not faced with the same problem: a mere 25 million people - the population of a large Chinese city - living in a developed economy on a sunny, windy desert the size of China can easily exit coal.

Quote:

Meanwhile we're in big trouble -
electricity has doubled and tripled in price -
some factories may have to close due to the cost of gas and other energy -
pensioners will have to survive the coming Winter without heating -
how many will die from the cold?

all true; but you are hung up on the "how do we pay for it" (ie, transition to renewables) question, because you don't understand how the modern monetary system works.

Quote:

The Marxist Greens don't care.

I agree they are only looking at Oz, whereas we are facing a global problem.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #450 - May 4^th, 2023 at 7:35pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 12:26pm: I agree they are only looking at Oz, whereas we are facing a global problem. What global problem?
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #451 - May 5^th, 2023 at 12:11pm lee wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 7:35pm: thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 12:26pm: I agree they are only looking at Oz, whereas we are facing a global problem. What global problem? Your 'survival of the fittest' ideology....
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #452 - May 5^th, 2023 at 3:08pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 5^th, 2023 at 12:11pm: Your 'survival of the fittest' ideology.... So you don't have any idea of these "global problems"?
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #453 - May 5^th, 2023 at 3:24pm lee wrote on May 5^th, 2023 at 3:08pm: thegreatdivide wrote on May 5^th, 2023 at 12:11pm: Your 'survival of the fittest' ideology.... So you don't have any idea of these "global problems"? I know your ideology is the cause of them.... You of course deny they are real, typical of comfortable conservatives.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #454 - May 5^th, 2023 at 3:32pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 5^th, 2023 at 3:24pm: I know your ideology is the cause of them.... You of course deny they are real, typical of comfortable conservatives. The fact that you can't point to them, while not proof of no problems, is telling.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #455 - May 5^th, 2023 at 10:31pm

lee wrote on May 5^th, 2023 at 3:32pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 5^th, 2023 at 3:24pm:

I know your ideology is the cause of them....

You of course deny they are real, typical of comfortable conservatives.

The fact that you can't point to them, while not proof of no problems, is telling. Roll Eyes

we've had the arguement before, you still claim ffs don't cuase illness.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #456 - May 6^th, 2023 at 4:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 5^th, 2023 at 10:31pm:

we've had the arguement before, you still claim ffs don't cuase illness.

You haven't shown they have.

Did you read about PM2.5? You know the one it is supposed to be a killer.

"In 2012, a group with which I am affiliated, sued EPA for conducting illegal human clinical research experiments involving PM2.5. By the early 2000s, EPA had concluded that any exposure to PM2.5 could kill in a matter of hours and that elderly and sick people were most at risk. To prove its point, conducted numerous experiments on elderly and sick people in which diesel exhaust from a truck was pipelined into an actual gas chamber where the human guinea pigs inhaled very high levels of PM2.5 for hours at a time.This was illegal because researchers are not allowed to conduct Nazi-like experiments where the purpose is to cause harm, especially without the informed consent of the human guinea pigs.

In its defense to our lawsuit, the EPA stated that it conducted the PM2.5 experiments because the PM2.5 epidemiology was only statistics, and as all researchers know, statistics only demonstrate correlation and correlation is not the same as causation. The EPA told the court that the human experiments were needed to establish needed biological plausibility for the claims of the epidemiology studies.

The EPA’s unequivocal admission that epidemiology alone was an insufficient basis to conclude that PM2.5 kills obviates any further need to consider the many significant flaws of the PM2.5 epidemiology.

And what were the results of those clinical experiments?

Despite exposing hundreds of elderly (as old as 80) and sick people (with asthma and heart disease) to extraordinary levels of PM2.5 (as high as 75 times the level in average US outdoor air), not so much as a gasp, wheeze or cough, much less any death, was reported. The clinical research, in fact, provided not an ounce of biological plausibility to the (dubious) epidemiology."

...

"When smokers inhale, they inhale a lot of PM2.5. If you live in the US and inhale average air, you will inhale about 240 millionths of a gram of PM2.5 every day. And EPA claims that is a potentially deadly dose of PM2.5.

Now if you are a smoker, not only will you inhale that 240 millionths-of-a-gram every 24 hours, but for every filtered cigarette you smoke, you will inhale and astounding 8,000 to 10,000 millionths-of-a-gram in the five minutes or so it takes to smoke a cigarette. But no one dies from smoking a single cigarette. The PM2.5 exposure is even higher for a marijuana joint, on the order of 100,000 millionths-of-a-gram. We give sick people medical marijuana. Have you ever heard of one of them dying from smoking a joint? No."

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/03/09/pm2-5-mass-killer-or-mass-fraud/

So the EPA did an Epidemiological, and they said they needed more. You just believe because there was a study. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #457 - May 7^th, 2023 at 12:11pm

lee wrote on May 6^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 5^th, 2023 at 10:31pm:

we've had the arguement before, you still claim ffs don't cuase illness.

You haven't shown they have.

Did you read about PM2.5? You know the one it is supposed to be a killer.

The flaw in your article is: the "experiment" only lasted for days.

Compared with real world findings:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/c-change/news/fossil-fuel-air-pollution-responsible...

Exposure to particulate matter from fossil fuels accounted for 21.5% of total deaths in 2012, falling to 18% in 2018 due to tightening air quality measures in China.
In India, fossil fuel pollution was responsible for nearly 2.5 million people (aged over 14) in 2018; representing over 30% of total deaths in India among people over age 14.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #458 - May 7^th, 2023 at 12:53pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 7^th, 2023 at 12:11pm:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/c-change/news/fossil-fuel-air-pollution-responsible...

Exposure to particulate matter from fossil fuels accounted for 21.5% of total deaths in 2012, falling to 18% in 2018 due to tightening air quality measures in China.
In India, fossil fuel pollution was responsible for nearly 2.5 million people (aged over 14) in 2018; representing over 30% of total deaths in India among people over age 14.

Another epidemiological study. Not real world.

From the underlying paper -

"We used the chemical transport model GEOS-Chem to estimate global exposure levels to fossil-fuel related PM2.5 in 2012. Relative risks of mortality were modeled using functions that link long-term exposure to PM2.5 and mortality, incorporating nonlinearity in the concentration response. "

We know you have no science, but do you have to accept EVERYTHING at face value.

And did you read the bit about smoking? There should be millions in the street dying from their first smoke. Roll Eyes

Edit: Link to the study - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0013935121000487

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #459 - May 7^th, 2023 at 2:05pm

lee wrote on May 7^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

Another epidemiological study. Not real world.

From the underlying paper -

"We used the chemical transport model GEOS-Chem to estimate global exposure levels to fossil-fuel related PM2.5 in 2012. Relative risks of mortality were modeled using functions that link long-term exposure to PM2.5 and mortality, incorporating nonlinearity in the concentration response. "

We know you have no science, but do you have to accept EVERYTHING at face value.

I'm content that Harvard Uni and its associates have a pretty good grasp on the relevant science.

Quote:

And did you read the bit about smoking? There should be millions in the street dying from their first smoke. Roll Eyes

You still denying smoking is a cause of lung cancer?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #460 - May 7^th, 2023 at 3:21pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 7^th, 2023 at 2:05pm:

I'm content that Harvard Uni and its associates have a pretty good grasp on the relevant science.

Models aren't science. Why do you think the EPA subjected old, infirm people to hours of high concentrations of PM 2.5? Why do you think people never died or got sick from it?

thegreatdivide wrote on May 7^th, 2023 at 2:05pm:

You still denying smoking is a cause of lung cancer?

I have never denied smoking causes lung cancer. Carcinogens cause cancer. PM2.5 being a particle size has not been shown to be a carcinogen. Some of PM2.5 particles may be carcinogenic, but it hasn't been shown.

You should try not to confuse yourself further. Roll Eyes

According to the EPA 240 millionths of a gram will kill. Smoking one cigarette results in 8,000-10,000 millionths of a gram. No first time smoker has died as a result of PM2.5.

"In its defense to our lawsuit, the EPA stated that it conducted the PM2.5 experiments because the PM2.5 epidemiology was only statistics, and as all researchers know, statistics only demonstrate correlation and correlation is not the same as causation."

"I subsequently convinced prominent and expert researchers to obtain 12 years-worth of California death certificate and air quality data and do their own rigorous study. Their study of all deaths in California between the years 2000 to 2012 (more than 2 million) reported no correlation between PM2.5 and death."

Ibid

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #461 - May 8^th, 2023 at 12:53pm

lee wrote on May 7^th, 2023 at 3:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 7^th, 2023 at 2:05pm:

I'm content that Harvard Uni and its associates have a pretty good grasp on the relevant science.

Models aren't science. Why do you think the EPA subjected old, infirm people to hours of high concentrations of PM 2.5? Why do you think people never died or got sick from it?

Such experiments are illegal - and useless because we are talking years of exposure to filthy fossils to cause illness.

Quote:

I have never denied smoking causes lung cancer. Carcinogens cause cancer. PM2.5 being a particle size has not been shown to be a carcinogen. Some of PM2.5 particles may be carcinogenic, but it hasn't been shown.

quick google:

"Effect of PM 2.5 on human health
PM2. 5 (particles less than 2.5 micrometers in diameter) can penetrate deeply into the lung, irritate and corrode the alveolar wall, and consequently impair lung function.

Over many years....and no doubt PM2.5 isn't the ONLY issue with filthy fossils; several years back I experienced the air in Bombay like breathing exhaust gases from diesel engines. Horrible.

Quote:

You should try not to confuse yourself further. Roll Eyes

You need to stop defending the indefensible. China - and India - are desperately trying to clean up air quality - for a reason...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #462 - May 8^th, 2023 at 2:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

Such experiments are illegal - and useless because we are talking years of exposure to filthy fossils to cause illness.

But the EPA says that even a small amount is a killer and it didn't. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

quick google:

"Effect of PM 2.5 on human health
PM2. 5 (particles less than 2.5 micrometers in diameter) can penetrate deeply into the lung, irritate and corrode the alveolar wall, and consequently impair lung function.

Over many years....and no doubt PM2.5 isn't the ONLY issue with filthy fossils; several years back I experienced the air in Bombay like breathing exhaust gases from diesel engines. Horrible.

Quote:

Nothing there about it being carcinogenic. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

You need to stop defending the indefensible. China - and India - are desperately trying to clean up air quality - for a reason...

So what is the life expectancy in China, say Shanghai?

" In 2021, the average life expectancy for the registered population in Shanghai municipality was 84.11 years. In that particular year, the life expectancy of registered female persons was 86.56 years, while that of male persons was 81.76 years." PM2.5 must really be a killer.

Mumbai - 69. Not good but they have a vast slum where life expectancy is lower, but the air is the same.

Wollongong - 85

So again you have failed.

The reason for the clean air drives is because it makes life more amenable. Not deaths from PM2.5. n Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #463 - May 8^th, 2023 at 3:50pm

lee wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 2:24pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/461#461 date=1683514406]Such experiments are illegal - and useless because we are talking years of exposure to filthy fossils to cause illness.

But the EPA says that even a small amount is a killer and it didn't. Roll Eyes

"is a killer" , without specifying time scales.

Quote:

Nothing there about it being carcinogenic. Roll Eyes

Poor dumb Lee, thinks cancer is the only illness affecting humans...

Quote:

So what is the life expectancy in China, say Shanghai?

Rapidly increasing over the last decade, as China closes coal plants near cities.

Quote:

Mumbai - 69. Not good but they have a vast slum where life expectancy is lower, but the air is the same.

Of course its the same: the "vast slum' is a square mile area located within a traffic-chocked metropolis of 20 million peolel.

Quote:

Wollongong - 85 . So again you have failed.

.

China's life expectancy, though higher than the US, is lower than Wollongong; poor Lee, again he can't see other factors are involved apart from filthy-fossil-polluted air.

Quote:

The reason for the clean air drives is because it makes life more amenable. Not deaths from PM2.5. n Roll Eyes

Addressed above: other causes of ff-related illness, as well as differences in population density, ff use, etc.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #464 - May 8^th, 2023 at 4:10pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 3:50pm:

"is a killer" , without specifying time scales.

They say as little as 270 millionth of a gram can kill you. It doesn't matter if that is over a lifetime or when you take your first smoke. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 3:50pm:

Poor dumb Lee, thinks cancer is the only illness affecting humans...

And yet you were the one who highlighted carcinogenic. So now you want us to believe you highlighted it in error? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 3:50pm:

Rapidly increasing over the last decade, as China closes coal plants near cities.

But they still have pollution problems. SO what you mean is that life expectancy is increasing depite the high levels of PM2.5. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 3:50pm:

Of course its the same: the "vast slum' is a square mile area located within a traffic-chocked metropolis of 20 million peolel.

And PM2.5 is only located within that square mile? Did they put up a big fence? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 3:50pm:

China's life expectancy, though higher than the US, is lower than Wollongong; poor Lee, again he can't see other factors are involved apart from filthy-fossil-polluted air.

You are the one trying to prove PM2.5 is a killer. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 3:50pm:

Addressed above: other causes of ff-related illness, as well as differences in population density, ff use, etc.

But you only mentioned PM2.5. Now all you have to do is list the other "ff -related illnesses". With citation of course. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #465 - May 8^th, 2023 at 5:21pm

lee wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 4:10pm:

They say as little as 270 millionth of a gram can kill you. It doesn't matter if that is over a lifetime or when you take your first smoke. Roll Eyes

We are talking about ffs causing illness over years of exposure.

Quote:

And yet you were the one who highlighted carcinogenic.

poor dumb Lee: "highlight" doesn't mean an exclusive cause of illness.

Quote:

But they still have pollution problems. SO what you mean is that life expectancy is increasing depite the high levels of PM2.5. Roll Eyes

No I mean life expectancy will increase as it has done over the last decade, as ffs become a smaller proportion of the economy.

Quote:

And PM2.5 is only located within that square mile? Did they put up a big fence? Grin

poor dumb Lee: no I mean the slum will have the same 2.5 pollution as the rest of the city, regardless of eg, lack of diesel cars in the slum.

Quote:

You are the one trying to prove PM2.5 is a killer. Roll Eyes

And you are one trying tp prove your idiocy...

listen up: 2.5 PM, plus poisonous gases etc.

Quote:

But you only mentioned PM2.5. Now all you have to do is list the other "ff -related illnesses". With citation of course. Roll Eyes

Your idiocy proven. PM2.5 is ONE issue, whereas ALL filthy ff pollution - visible and invisible - is a problem to be eradicated.

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/activity/visible-and-invisible-pollutants/

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #466 - May 8^th, 2023 at 6:05pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

We are talking about ffs causing illness over years of exposure.

No, we are talking death for a small amount, once. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

poor dumb Lee: "highlight" doesn't mean an exclusive cause of illness.

Who said it was exclusive? You couldn't even point to one case. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

No I mean life expectancy will increase as it has done over the last decade, as ffs become a smaller proportion of the economy.

Oh, less FF will make people live longer? Strange that life expectancy over the last 100 years has increased because of FF. You know heating, cooling, cooking. And of course the big one FF used in agriculture. Making more food available. But I guess without FF poor people can simply starve. I mean it is only reducing FF usage. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

poor dumb Lee: no I mean the slum will have the same 2.5 pollution as the rest of the city, regardless of eg, lack of diesel cars in the slum.

And the life expectancy has gone up. You do know dung fires are burning FF? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

And you are one trying to prove your idiocy...

listen up: 2.5 PM, plus poisonous gases etc.

So now it is not PM2.5 as you originally touted but poisonous gases. Which gases? What levels? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

PM2.5 is ONE issue, whereas ALL filthy ff pollution - visible and invisible - is a problem to be eradicated.

But you haven't shown anything about PM2.5 other than another statistical type study. Remember, correlation is not causation? Roll Eyes

Under your mantra we would have to get rid of all eucalypts. Terpenes are less than PM2.5. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #467 - May 8^th, 2023 at 6:22pm

lee wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 6:05pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

We are talking about ffs causing illness over years of exposure.

No, we are talking death for a small amount, once. Roll Eyes

proving your idiocy again...conservative world view crippling your capacity for analysis

Fossil fuels harm health, short and long term.

Quote:

Who said it was exclusive? You couldn't even point to one case. Roll Eyes

ditto, see above.

Quote:

Oh, less FF will make people live longer? Strange that life expectancy over the last 100 years has increased because of FF.

That has been due to increased productivity notably in the developed world, DESPITE filthy fossils.

Quote:

And the life expectancy has gone up. You do know dung fires are burning FF? Roll Eyes

We need to compare developed countries OTOH, and undeveloped/developing countries, OTO.

Quote:

So now it is not PM2.5 as you originally touted but poisonous gases. Which gases? What levels? Roll Eyes

both and... oh never mind, you don't have the mental capacity to deal with the health issues.

Quote:

Under your mantra we would have to get rid of all eucalypts. Terpenes are less than PM2.5. Roll Eyes

Idiocy resulting from desperation. Trees don't poison the atmosphere.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #468 - May 8^th, 2023 at 7:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 6:22pm:

proving your idiocy again...conservative world view crippling your capacity for analysis

The EPA is a USA government source. It is their claim. That you can't rebut is telling. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 6:22pm:

ditto, see above.

So no proof. Just as I suspected. Roll Eyes

.
thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 6:22pm:

That has been due to increased productivity notably in the developed world, DESPITE filthy fossils.

NOT DESPITE... BECAUSE OF. Fossil fuels do the work of many. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 6:22pm:

We need to compare developed countries OTOH, and undeveloped/developing countries, OTO.

So tell us ONE where life expectancy is dropping from FF use. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 6:22pm:

both and... oh never mind, you don't have the mental capacity to deal with the health issues.

Both? But you haven't even provided a case for PM2.5 except statistical studies. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 6:22pm:

Trees don't poison the atmosphere.

Trees emit PM2.5. That's your argument. PM2.5 is BAD. Roll Eyes

So we know you don't do science. You don't do logical thinking. How sad to be you. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #469 - May 9^th, 2023 at 1:04pm

lee wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 7:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 6:22pm:

proving your idiocy again...conservative world view crippling your capacity for analysis

The EPA is a USA government source. It is their claim. That you can't rebut is telling. Roll Eyes

running experiments to find out whether PM2.5 is deadly, when such experiments are not comparable to/replicable in real world conditions.

Quote:

So no proof. Just as I suspected. Roll Eyes

"Proof" to 'survival of the fittest' market ideologues is an oxy-moron. Everyone knows ff exhaust fumes are deadly.

Quote:

NOT DESPITE... BECAUSE OF. Fossil fuels do the work of many. Roll Eyes

See....ffs "do the work of many" BUT are poisonous as well. Oops.

Quote:

So tell us ONE where life expectancy is dropping from FF use. Roll Eyes

Poisons kill people.... oh..never mind, crippled conservative mind.

Quote:

except statistical studies. Roll Eyes

News flash: people want clean., non-poisonous air....

Quote:

Trees emit PM2.5. That's your argument. PM2.5 is BAD. Roll Eyes

Crippled brain stuff, trees don't emit poisonous gases, whether PM2.5 or any other form of poison.

Quote:

So we know you don't do science. You don't do logical thinking. How sad to be you. Roll Eyes

Crippled brain, supporting ff poisoning the air. Sad.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #470 - May 9^th, 2023 at 2:43pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 1:04pm:

running experiments to find out whether PM2.5 is deadly, when such experiments are not comparable to/replicable in real world conditions.

That's right. More than in real; world conditions. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 1:04pm:

"Proof" to 'survival of the fittest' market ideologues is an oxy-moron. Everyone knows ff exhaust fumes are deadly.

And yet you haven't been able to show it. A model is not proof of anything. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 1:04pm:

See....ffs "do the work of many" BUT are poisonous as well. Oops.

You haven't shown the poisonous part. You couldn't even show the claimes carcinogenic part. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 1:04pm:

Poisons kill people.... oh..never mind, crippled conservative mind.

And? Show the study that says FF poisons are killing people. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 1:04pm:

News flash: people want clean., non-poisonous air....

You haven't shown anything poisonous. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 1:04pm:

Crippled brain stuff, trees don't emit poisonous gases, whether PM2.5 or any other form of poison.

Actually terpenes can be very toxic. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 1:04pm:

Crippled brain, supporting ff poisoning the air. Sad.

Is that your best comeback? You aren't very good at this are you? Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #471 - May 9^th, 2023 at 10:31pm

lee wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 2:43pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 1:04pm:

running experiments to find out whether PM2.5 is deadly, when such experiments are not comparable to/replicable in real world conditions.

That's right. More than in real; world conditions. Roll Eyes

Impossible: real world means over an individual's lifetime.

Quote:

And yet you haven't been able to show it. A model is not proof of anything. Roll Eyes

Google ffs poison the atmosphere: I'll assist you:

" When fossil fuels are burned, they release nitrogen oxides into the atmosphere, which contribute to the formation of smog and acid rain. Major sources of nitrogen oxide emissions include: Cars and trucks. Coal-fired power plants.

and

Nitrogen oxides (NO2, N2O4, N2O3 and N2O5) are irritating to the upper respiratory tract and lungs even at low concentrations. Only one or two breaths of a very high concentration can cause severe toxicity.

Quote:

You haven't shown the poisonous part. You couldn't even show the claimes carcinogenic part. Roll Eyes

I'll let you google ff carcinogens; the poisons are noted above.

Quote:

And? Show the study that says FF poisons are killing people. Roll Eyes

"toxicity....."
Quote:

You haven't shown anything poisonous. Roll Eyes

the crippled brain can't read the research, as shown by your comment below:

Quote:

Actually terpenes can be very toxic. Roll Eyes

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5402865/

'Forest bathing' has beneficial effects on human health via showering of forest aerosols as well as physical relaxation. Terpenes that consist of multiple isoprene units are the largest class of organic compounds produced by various plants, and one of the major components of forest aerosols.

The "very toxic" terpenes - if they exist - are obviously produced in laboratories, in toxic quantities. Note: even vitamins are toxic, in excessive quantities.

Quote:

Is that your best comeback? You aren't very good at this are you? Roll Eyes

...the 'drover's dog' could do it, up against your brain blinded by ideology......

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #472 - May 10^th, 2023 at 12:55pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 10:31pm:

Impossible: real world means over an individual's lifetime.

And PM2.5 is supposed to kill in a person's first smoke. So their lifetime should be until maybe the second drag. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 10:31pm:

" When fossil fuels are burned, they release nitrogen oxides into the atmosphere, which contribute to the formation of smog and acid rain. Major sources of nitrogen oxide emissions include: Cars and trucks. Coal-fired power plants.and

Nitrogen oxides (NO2, N2O4, N2O3 and N2O5) are irritating to the upper respiratory tract and lungs even at low concentrations. Only one or two breaths of a very high concentration can cause severe toxicity.

I will ask again at what level? At what level will death occur. At what level has death occurred? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 10:31pm:

I'll let you google ff carcinogens; the poisons are noted above.

And yet you can't find them otherwise you would have shown them. Just like the NOx's.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 10:31pm:

"toxicity....."

Toxicity is not death. At what level is the toxic effect deadly?

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 10:31pm:

the crippled brain can't read the research, as shown by your comment below:

Quote:
Actually terpenes can be very toxic. Roll Eyes

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5402865/

'Forest bathing' has beneficial effects on human health via showering of forest aerosols as well as physical relaxation. Terpenes that consist of multiple isoprene units are the largest class of organic compounds produced by various plants, and one of the major components of forest aerosols.

The "very toxic" terpenes - if they exist - are obviously produced in laboratories, in toxic quantities. Note: even vitamins are toxic, in excessive quantities.

Even dilute terpenes. "Buyers Beware! Diluted Terpenes Could Be Turning Your Toke Toxic"

[url]https://labeffects.com/buyers-beware-diluted-terpenes-could-be-turning-your-toke
-toxic/ [/url]

You do understand the term "diluted"? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 9^th, 2023 at 10:31pm:

...the 'drover's dog' could do it, up against your brain blinded by ideology......

So you are a drover's dog. That explains a lot. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #473 - May 10^th, 2023 at 1:18pm

lee wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 12:55pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/471#471

And PM2.5 is supposed to kill in a person's first smoke. So their lifetime should be until maybe the second drag. Roll Eyes

According to who?

Quote:

I will ask again at what level? At what level will death occur. At what level has death occurred? Roll Eyes

At the current levels in built up urban areas.

Quote:

And yet you can't find them otherwise you would have shown them. Just like the NOx's. Roll Eyes

Correct - just like the NOx's shown above.

Quote:

Toxicity is not death. At what level is the toxic effect deadly? Roll Eyes

Er ...toxicity means injurious to health; the level which actually results in death is not the chief concern.....any injury to health is.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5402865/

Quote:

Even dilute terpenes. "Buyers Beware! Diluted Terpenes Could Be Turning Your Toke Toxic"

as opposed to terpenes produced in forests; I already commented on concentration (and threfore dilution), have you forgotten already...go easy on those vitamin pills....

Quote:

So you are a drover's dog. That explains a lot. Grin

No, the drover's dog could do it, where you can't...a pity.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #474 - May 10^th, 2023 at 2:56pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 1:18pm:

According to who?

According to the EPA. Don't you read or comprehend what is written?

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 1:18pm:

At the current levels in built up urban areas.

So you can tell us how many then, not from statistical studies.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 1:18pm:

And yet you can't find them otherwise you would have shown them. Just like the NOx's. Roll Eyes
Correct - just like the NOx's shown above.

So you agree, you can't show them. But still you BELIEVE. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 1:18pm:

Quote:
Toxicity is not death. At what level is the toxic effect deadly? Roll Eyes

Er ...toxicity means injurious to health; the level which actually results in death is not the chief concern.....any injury to health is.

But you have been bleating about PM2.5 and poisonous gases killing people.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 8^th, 2023 at 5:21pm:

Quote:
You are the one trying to prove PM2.5 is a killer. Roll Eyes

And you are one trying tp prove your idiocy...

listen up: 2.5 PM, plus poisonous gases etc.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 1:18pm:

Quote:
Even dilute terpenes. "Buyers Beware! Diluted Terpenes Could Be Turning Your Toke Toxic"

as opposed to terpenes produced in forests; I already commented on concentration (and threfore dilution), have you forgotten already...go easy on those vitamin pills....

So terpenes produced in forests are somehow ultra-diluted at source. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 1:18pm:

No, the drover's dog could do it, where you can't...a pity.

As I said you are the drover's dog. Thanks for that. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #475 - May 10^th, 2023 at 10:39pm

lee wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 2:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 1:18pm:

According to who?

According to the EPA. Don't you read or comprehend what is written? Roll Eyes

In an experiment; don't you understand real world versus experiment.

Quote:

So you can tell us how many then, not from statistical studies. Roll Eyes

\

Actually here's an experiment for you; lock yourself in your garage, and turn the car engine on.... (just kidding..."don't try this at home" etc...)

Quote:

So you agree, you can't show them. But still you BELIEVE. Grin

I agree researchers have revealed the toxicity of NOXs, among other toxins in ffs.

Quote:

But you have been bleating about PM2.5 and poisonous gases killing people. Roll Eyes

If you say so: but now I am pointing to research re ffs' toxicity, as well.

Quote:

So terpenes produced in forests are somehow ultra-diluted at source. Grin

Not all terpenes are toxic, but all ffs produce toxins.

Quote:

As I said you are the drover's dog. Thanks for that. Roll Eyes

If you say so... but it's sad you can't parse a sentence:

"the 'drover's dog' could do it, up against your brain blinded by ideology".

The drover's dog is the subject in that sentence, not me.

And btw still waiting for you to show some intellectual competence by replying to #33 in the 'Budget tonight 7.30' thread.

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« Last Edit: May 10^th, 2023 at 10:51pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #476 - May 11^th, 2023 at 2:42pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 10:39pm:

In an experiment; don't you understand real world versus experiment.

The EPA used high dosages, much higher than real world dosages. You haven't even pointed to one death from your "real world" data. Models are not "real world". Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 10:39pm:

Actually here's an experiment for you; lock yourself in your garage, and turn the car engine on.... (just kidding..."don't try this at home" etc...)

And that replicates "real world" data? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 10:39pm:

I agree researchers have revealed the toxicity of NOXs, among other toxins in ffs.

And can't show the effects. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 10:39pm:

If you say so: but now I am pointing to research re ffs' toxicity, as wel

You said so. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 10:39pm:

Not all terpenes are toxic, but all ffs produce toxins.

So tell us which terpenes are not toxic? It is you claim, prove it. Roll Eyes

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #477 - May 11^th, 2023 at 2:45pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 10:39pm: And btw still waiting for you to show some intellectual competence by replying to #33 in the 'Budget tonight 7.30' thread. Why? Steve Keen, according to you is a whiz at everything.
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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #478 - May 11^th, 2023 at 3:16pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Curry
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #479 - May 12^th, 2023 at 1:29pm

lee wrote on May 11^th, 2023 at 2:45pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 10^th, 2023 at 10:39pm:

And btw still waiting for you to show some intellectual competence by replying to #33 in the 'Budget tonight 7.30' thread.

Why? Steve Keen, according to you is a whiz at everything. Grin

Certainly understanding how a post gold standard, fiat-currency system works, which the mainstream don't understand at all.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #480 - May 12^th, 2023 at 1:32pm Bobby. wrote on May 11^th, 2023 at 3:16pm: [url]https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/137/124/778/orig inal/f8bdcc167eea5d3c.png[/url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Curry But the profit-gouging fossil fuel price-fixing cartels, and their injurious to health products, are real...
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #481 - May 12^th, 2023 at 2:13pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 1:29pm: Certainly understanding how a post gold standard, fiat-currency system works, which the mainstream don't understand at all. And that is all you are left with after claims of millions of deaths from fossil fuels and PM2.5.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #482 - May 12^th, 2023 at 6:35pm

lee wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 2:13pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 1:29pm:

Certainly understanding how a post gold standard, fiat-currency system works, which the mainstream don't understand at all.

And that is all you are left with after claims of millions of deaths from fossil fuels and PM2.5. Roll Eyes

Wrong again: Keen and Bill Mitchell have both explained we CAN "'afford' to save the planet"...it's resources, not money and profits, dummy.

https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=60829

The climate emergency requires us to reset our understanding of fiscal capacity. It is already, probably, too late.

Note: not for greedy fools who ignore the high possibility of an immanent AGW emergency, as well as the real harmful effects of ff pollution.

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« Last Edit: May 12^th, 2023 at 6:44pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #483 - May 12^th, 2023 at 7:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 6:35pm:

Wrong again: Keen and Bill Mitchell have both explained we CAN "'afford' to save the planet"...it's resources, not money and profits, dummy.

https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=60829

And NOTHING to do with millions dying from FF usage. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 6:35pm:

The climate emergency requires us to reset our understanding of fiscal capacity. It is already, probably, too late.

Note: not for greedy fools who ignore the high possibility of an immanent AGW emergency, as well as the real harmful effects of ff pollution.

And once you again you have failed to provide evidence of a climate emergency. You keep resiling to "I am an AGW agnostic". Grin

So one is current and one is future. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #484 - May 12^th, 2023 at 7:32pm

lee wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 7:17pm:

And NOTHING to do with millions dying from FF usage. Roll Eyes

you can't google? Sad in this day and age... nice try but no cigar: I acknowledge the necessity to close down ffs pollution in populated urban areas, as does China and India....China is already the world's largest renewables producer - why, you might ask; coal is much easier.

Quote:

And once you again you have failed to provide evidence of a climate emergency. You keep resiling to "I am an AGW agnostic". Grin

More importantly, Mitchell and Keen accept AGW as a given, as does the entire UN.

Quote:

So one is current and one is future. Grin

Correct. And only a fool would ignore future probabilities as defined by the IPCC.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #485 - May 12^th, 2023 at 8:47pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 7:32pm:

you can't google?

It is your claim. And you haven't posted any evidence, apart from statistical studies. And now you want me to do the work for you. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 7:32pm:

More importantly, Mitchell and Keen accept AGW as a given, as does the entire UN.

So opinions mean more than facts. Thanks for that. The ONLY proof of AGW is the models. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 7:32pm:

Correct. And only a fool would ignore future probabilities as defined by the IPCC.

Models are not science. You can't seem to grasp that simple fact. The models that can't do clouds, one of the most important things in climate. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #486 - May 12^th, 2023 at 10:32pm

lee wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 8:47pm:

[quote]It is your claim. And you haven't posted any evidence, apart from statistical studies. And now you want me to do the work for you. Grin

Yes. Statisical studies reveal reality, like...smoking kills.

Quote:

So opinions mean more than facts. Thanks for that. The ONLY proof of AGW is the models. Roll Eyes

And your opinion is....fact, while the IPCC statistical studies are opinion. Got it.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #487 - May 13^th, 2023 at 1:01pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 10:32pm:

Yes. Statisical studies reveal reality, like...smoking kills.

Nope. They don't. Autopsies revealed smoking kills.

" Findings of primary lung tumours in the autopsied bodies of German research clinics rose dramatically in the second half of the 19th century, and even more dramatically in the first decade of the 20th. Isaac Adler summarised this evidence in 1912, in the world's first monograph on lung cancer, noting that the incidence of malignant neoplasms of the lung seemed to show ‘a decided increase’. Adler mentioned the ‘abuse of tobacco and alcohol’ as one possible cause, while also commenting that the subject was ‘not yet ready for final judgment’."

https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/21/2/87

You are as dumb as a bunch of rocks. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 12^th, 2023 at 10:32pm:

And your opinion is....fact, while the IPCC statistical studies are opinion. Got it.

The IPCC relies on models. The CMIP6 models that run too hot. The CMIP6 models that can't do clouds. That's why they have a plethora of algorithms to cover facts they don't know. Statistics can't tell you what the temperature was yesterday, let alone on a day 100 years ago. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #488 - May 13^th, 2023 at 11:37pm

lee wrote on May 13^th, 2023 at 1:01pm:

Adler mentioned the ‘abuse of tobacco and alcohol’ as one possible cause, while also commenting that the subject was ‘not yet ready for final judgment’."

I wonder ..why not? Not enough statistical studies?

Quote:

The IPCC relies on models.

(And statistics) and the models show a chance of catastrophic global warming.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #489 - May 14^th, 2023 at 1:07pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 13^th, 2023 at 11:37pm:

I wonder ..why not? Not enough statistical studies?

Statistical studies can give an estimate of the number of deaths. HOWEVER, first you need a database of proven deaths and then extrapolate to the broader community. It still remains an estimate with wide parameters for error margins. It will always vary if compared to the general community, as smokers' behaviour changes. Fewer smokers and the statistics will go down in relation to the general community. For it to be more accurate, you need a comparison to total smokers, which also varies.

BUT first you need the database based on autopsies. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 13^th, 2023 at 11:37pm:

(And statistics) and the models show a chance of catastrophic global warming.

So tell us what statistics are saying about catastrophic global warming. As usual, YOUR CLAIM - YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

You mean the models that run too hot show a chance of catastrophic global warming? Do you want that pinch of salt? Grin

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #490 - May 14^th, 2023 at 1:12pm lee wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 1:07pm: So tell us what statistics are saying about catastrophic global warming. As usual, YOUR CLAIM - YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Hey....don't shoot me, I'm only the IPCC's messenger...there is a chance of catastrophic global warming. You happy to ignore it?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #491 - May 14^th, 2023 at 2:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 1:12pm:

Hey....don't shoot me, I'm only the IPCC's messenger...there is a chance of catastrophic global warming. You happy to ignore it?

Please show where the IPCC has claimed Catastrophic Global Warming. Roll Eyes

I will give you a hint...It hasn't. Some messenger, more like Chinese whispers. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #492 - May 14^th, 2023 at 2:32pm

lee wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 2:25pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 1:12pm:

Hey....don't shoot me, I'm only the IPCC's messenger...there is a chance of catastrophic global warming. You happy to ignore it?

Please show where the IPCC has claimed Catastrophic Global Warming.

World is on brink of catastrophic warming, U.N. climate change report says

The world is likely to pass a dangerous temperature threshold within the next 10 years, pushing the planet past the point of catastrophic warming — unless nations drastically transform their economies and immediately transition away from fossil fuels, according to one of the most definitive reports ever published about climate change.

The report released Monday by the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) found that the world is likely to surpass its most ambitious climate target — limiting warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 degrees Fahrenheit) above preindustrial temperatures — by the early 2030s.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #493 - May 14^th, 2023 at 2:45pm

greggerypeccary wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 2:32pm:

World is on brink of catastrophic warming, U.N. climate change report says

Now show me in the report where it actually says that. NOT headlines from a media source. Roll Eyes

And I mean the Physical Science Basis, not the other reports. Wink

You would think it would be here.

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/chapter/chapter-11/

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« Last Edit: May 14^th, 2023 at 2:52pm by lee »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #494 - May 14^th, 2023 at 2:55pm

lee wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 2:45pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 2:32pm:

World is on brink of catastrophic warming, U.N. climate change report says

Now show me in the report where it actually says that. NOT headlines from a media source. Roll Eyes

And I mean the Physical Science Basis, not the other reports. Wink

You would think it would be here.

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/chapter/chapter-11/

Sure.

"Global warming of 1.5°C is reached by 2030 but no major changes in policies occur. Starting with an intense El Niño–La Niña phase in the 2030s, several catastrophic years occur while global warming starts to approach 2°C."

Anything else I can get you while I'm here?

Or, can I maybe help you shift the goal posts, as I assume that's your next move?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #495 - May 14^th, 2023 at 3:00pm

greggerypeccary wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 2:55pm:

Sure.

"Global warming of 1.5°C is reached by 2030 but no major changes in policies occur. Starting with an intense El Niño–La Niña phase in the 2030s, several catastrophic years occur while global warming starts to approach 2°C."

Sorry but that's not WG1- the Physical Science Basis.

Yoy do know El Niño–La Niña is a natural phenomena?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #496 - May 14^th, 2023 at 3:02pm

lee wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 2:25pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 1:12pm:

Hey....don't shoot me, I'm only the IPCC's messenger...there is a chance of catastrophic global warming. You happy to ignore it?

Please show where the IPCC has claimed Catastrophic Global Warming.

Sure.

"Global warming of 1.5°C is reached by 2030 but no major changes in policies occur. Starting with an intense El Niño–La Niña phase in the 2030s, several catastrophic years occur while global warming starts to approach 2°C."

Wink

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #497 - May 14^th, 2023 at 3:04pm

greggerypeccary wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 3:02pm:

Sure.

"Global warming of 1.5°C is reached by 2030 but no major changes in policies occur. Starting with an intense El Niño–La Niña phase in the 2030s, several catastrophic years occur while global warming starts to approach 2°C."

So you are quoting NOT the Physical Science Basis. Grin

"Scenario 3 [one possible storyline among worst-case scenarios]:"

Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #498 - May 14^th, 2023 at 3:10pm

lee wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 3:04pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 3:02pm:

Sure.

"Global warming of 1.5°C is reached by 2030 but no major changes in policies occur. Starting with an intense El Niño–La Niña phase in the 2030s, several catastrophic years occur while global warming starts to approach 2°C."

So you are quoting NOT the Physical Science Basis.

I'm doing what I always do: I'm making you look like an ignorant fool who moves the goal posts when proven wrong.

You said, and I quote: "Please show where the IPCC has claimed Catastrophic Global Warming."

I provided exactly what you asked for, and then you moved the goal posts.

"Global warming of 1.5°C is reached by 2030 but no major changes in policies occur. Starting with an intense El Niño–La Niña phase in the 2030s, several catastrophic years occur while global warming starts to approach 2°C."

Your white flag has been accepted, and your inability to admit when you are wrong has been duly noted.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #499 - May 14^th, 2023 at 3:16pm

greggerypeccary wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 3:10pm:

I'm doing what I always do: I'm making you look like an ignorant fool who moves the goal posts when proven wrong.

Poor petal. Only in your tiny little mind. But your objection is noted. I only rely on the science. Wink

greggerypeccary wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 3:10pm:

Your white flag has been accepted, and your inability to admit when you are wrong has been duly noted.

Poor petal. Doesn't like the science. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #500 - May 14^th, 2023 at 6:04pm

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/06/switching-the-world-to-renewable-energy-wil...

CLEAN POWER

"Switching The World To Renewable Energy Will Cost $62 Trillion, But The Payback Would Take Just 6 Years
Mark Jacobson and his team have published a renewable energy study in which they argue the payback time is just 6 years."

ie with the only cost to you and me being irrelevant (resource) "opportunity costs", with no actual financial costs to you and me, since the treasuries and central banks of currency-issuing governments can create the money ex nihilo, just as private banks do when they write loans for credit-worthy customers.

And no reason for private sector control of an energy system powered by free sun and wind.

Just sayin'.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #501 - May 14^th, 2023 at 7:43pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 6:04pm:

CLEAN POWER

"Switching The World To Renewable Energy Will Cost $62 Trillion, But The Payback Would Take Just 6 Years
Mark Jacobson and his team have published a renewable energy study in which they argue the payback time is just 6 years."

That's one estimate. From the underlying paper -

Country Capacity factor
Offshore wind Onshore wind Rooftop PV Utility PV
United States 0.379 0.294 0.197 0.207

Also according to the paper you only require about 4 times overbuild.

Add to that the extra cost of batteries as everyone tries to build a bigger battery.

"The US solar capacity factor is 12% during its winter vacation and 21% during summer. Wind works a bit harder – a 27% capacity factor during the summer/fall vacation and a 45% capacity factor the rest of the year."

Leen Weijers, VP Engineering, Liberty Energy

Can you see the problem yet? Solar and wind vary according to season as well as time of day. Wink

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #502 - May 14^th, 2023 at 8:04pm Dear lee, please supply links: https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/renewable-energy-costs-benefit...
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #503 - May 14^th, 2023 at 8:42pm

https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/145Country/22-145Countri...

The original paper. Tables 11 and 12. Australia cost, based on their figures, would be about 1% of the total, so $620 billion dollars. Roll Eyes

Bobby. wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 8:04pm:

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/renewable-energy-costs-benefit...

The same study as the one provided by TGD.

"Yet, a new study finds that those costs might only be short-term."

"The near failure of the Texas power grid, coming just 4 minutes and 37 seconds from a complete collapse on February 14, 2021, was the first alarm bell that something was dreadfully wrong with US power grids. Meredith Angwin, a physical chemist and power grid specialist, described the February 2021 failure of the Texas power grid failure as a seminal event that was not a surprise:

Those of us who were watching the grid had noticed for years that Texas ran with a very low reserve margin…and there were predictions that Texas was going to be in trouble, [1],”

Since then, more power-grid operators have been speaking out about the increasing instability of their grids due to an over-weighting of non-dispatchable wind and solar power. A report on February 24, 2023, from the largest power grid in the US, PJM, warned of “increasing reliability risks” affecting 13 states and the District of Columbia and 65 million people who get their power from PJM. This report is a wake-up call for all US power grids because most face the same grid instability problems highlighted in the report:

The growth rate of electricity is likely to continue to increase from electrification coupled with the proliferation of high-demand data centers in the region.
The projections in this study indicate that it is possible that the current pace of new entry (of electricity generation capacity) would be insufficient to keep up with expected retirements and demand growth by 2030.
Thermal generators are retiring rapidly due to government and private sector policies as well as economics.
PJM’s interconnection queue is composed primarily of intermittent and limited-duration resources.

More grids have been warning that the addition of new wind and solar needs to be restrained and that retirements of dispatchable thermal generation—such as coal, nuclear and natural gas—need to slow.

This was emphasized by Manu Asthana, CEO of PJM, in a speech at the Electric Supply Association, on March 27, 2023, when he noted that new supply resources had not kept pace with retirements because of clogged interconnection queues, siting obstacles, and supply chain constraints:"

https://www.masterresource.org/texas-blackout-2021/grid-instability-ireland/

Yeah. Until the wind turbines, solar panels and batteries need replacing. And then another 62 billion.

"There is very little data on modern turbines reaching their life expectancy so it is largely unknown how long they will be operable. Modern wind turbines have over 8,000 parts (broken down into three major components) and blades as long as 262 feet, the same length as the wingspan of an Airbus [2]. With higher efficiency modern turbines due to additional electronic components and a more powerful and massive design, there is a higher chance of something going wrong with more potential points of failure and overall added stress and load on the structure.

"We don't know with certainty the life spans of current turbines," said Lisa Linowes, executive director of WindAction Group, a nonprofit [3]. With most wind turbines being installed in the last decade, it is largely unknown if they will make it to the designed 20-25 year life.

At 10 years of life, blades and gearboxes are needing to be replaced already so it is unlikely they will make it another 10 years. The cost to teardown a single turbine is $200,000, not including any payback from selling or recycling valuable materials, which is heavily labor intensive and not always cost effective. Instead of decommissioning, more often the site will be ‘repowered’ which means replacing the turbines with newer technology."

https://energyfollower.com/how-long-do-wind-turbines-last/

"The lifetime of photovoltaic modules is most commonly considered to be 25 years based on performance guarantees of 80% power output after 25 years of operation; however, influences including climatic conditions, social behaviour, fiscal policy, and technological improvements have the potential to prompt early replacement. "

https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/9/5336

So, with luck, renewables will last half as long fossil fuel generation.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #504 - May 14^th, 2023 at 9:42pm

lee wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 2:25pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 1:12pm:

Hey....don't shoot me, I'm only the IPCC's messenger...there is a chance of catastrophic global warming. You happy to ignore it?

Please show where the IPCC has claimed Catastrophic Global Warming.

IPCC SPECIAL REPORT: GLOBAL WARMING OF 1.5 ºC:

"Global warming of 1.5°C is reached by 2030 but no major changes in policies occur. Starting with an intense El Niño–La Niña phase in the 2030s, several catastrophic years occur while global warming starts to approach 2°C."

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #505 - May 15^th, 2023 at 12:30am

Only the west is dumb enough to go along with things like climate change, transgenda agenda, smart cities, neo liberalism etc etc etc

Shame really we used to be the smartest questioning everything.

These days we just get dictated to from the top down and no questions asked.

Its like we have been muzzled.

Will be interesting to see what effect brics (backed by gold) is going to have on the $US dollar.

If it goes down the toilet then we are close second.

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am:

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop
in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.
Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day
at a rapid rate especially in China and India.

Anything we do is purely symbolic.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-perc...

Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80%
of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report.

Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that

China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam
plan to build more than 600 coal power units

,
even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants

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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #506 - May 15^th, 2023 at 2:07pm

greggerypeccary wrote on May 14^th, 2023 at 9:42pm:

IPCC SPECIAL REPORT: GLOBAL WARMING OF 1.5 ºC:

"Global warming of 1.5°C is reached by 2030 but no major changes in policies occur. Starting with an intense El Niño–La Niña phase in the 2030s, several catastrophic years occur while global warming starts to approach 2°C."

You keep repeating stuff that the WG1- The Physical Science Basis does not say. Why would you not follow the science? Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #507 - May 15^th, 2023 at 6:15pm

Ajax wrote on May 15^th, 2023 at 12:30am:

Only the west is dumb enough to go along with things like climate change, transgenda agenda, smart cities, neo liberalism etc etc etc

That last item - neoliberalism - is the system in place in most of the world at present, overseen from the IMF and World Bank down), though China has a large proportion of SOEs, and the US has recently passed the CHIPS, and IRA Acts which are massive government interventions (into the neoliberal 'free market') in an attempt to counter China's growth.

Quote:

Will be interesting to see what effect brics (backed by gold) is going to have on the $US dollar.

BRICS are certainly discussing use of a common currency or employment of currency swaps based on their own currencies, to bypass the US dollar, but it's not based on gold.

eg the Chinese economy has grown so rapidly in the last 2 decades, there isn't enough gold in China or the world to back the currency and trade with the rest of the world - which is the same reason Nixon took the US off the gold standard in 1971.

Quote:

Bobby:

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.
Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day
at a rapid rate especially in China and India.

Anything we do is purely symbolic.

Not really. China is already the world's largest producer of renewable energy, and plans to reach maximum carbon emissions by 2035, and be carbon neutral by 2060, while it also attains developed nation status (ie, 1st world gdp per capita levels).

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« Last Edit: May 15^th, 2023 at 6:29pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #508 - May 15^th, 2023 at 7:06pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 15^th, 2023 at 6:15pm: China is already the world's largest producer of renewable energy, and plans to reach maximum carbon emissions by 2035, and be carbon neutral by 2060, while it also attains developed nation status So nothing until 2060. I guess CO2 is not a problem then.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #509 - May 16^th, 2023 at 1:32pm

lee wrote on May 15^th, 2023 at 7:06pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 15^th, 2023 at 6:15pm:

China is already the world's largest producer of renewable energy, and plans to reach maximum carbon emissions by 2035, and be carbon neutral by 2060, while it also attains developed nation status

So nothing until 2060. I guess CO2 is not a problem then. Roll Eyes

See how ideological blindness destroys the capacity for rational analysis...

"China is already the world's largest producer of renewable energy, and plans to reach maximum carbon emissions by 2035"

Hint: China with its huge population is still a developing economy, cf the 1st world economies including Oz which is as big as a midsize Chinese city...

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #510 - May 16^th, 2023 at 2:51pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 1:32pm: "China is already the world's largest producer of renewable energy, and plans to reach maximum carbon emissions by 2035" And an even larger increase in CO2 emissions. Talk about being ideologically blind.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #511 - May 16^th, 2023 at 4:29pm

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 2:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 1:32pm:

"China is already the world's largest producer of renewable energy, and plans to reach maximum carbon emissions by 2035"

And an even larger increase in CO2 emissions. Talk about being ideologically blind. Grin

er...lifting the living standards of the population of a developing country (as opposed to a developed country like Oz) means increasing energy consumption per capita.

China intends to peak its CO2 emissions by 2035, after which time it will be technologically advanced enough to continue to lift per capita energy consumption while decreasing ff consumption.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #512 - May 16^th, 2023 at 5:21pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 4:29pm: China intends to peak its CO2 emissions by 2035, after which time it will be technologically advanced enough to continue to lift per capita energy consumption while decreasing ff consumption. Yes. So CO2 can't be a problem.
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #513 - May 16^th, 2023 at 6:06pm lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 5:21pm: GD: "...while decreasing ff consumption". Yes. So CO2 can't be a problem. "while decreasing ff consumption".. because CO2 emission is a problem, so the CCP thinks ...along with the UN..
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #514 - May 16^th, 2023 at 6:09pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:06pm: "while decreasing ff consumption".. because CO2 emission is a problem, so the CCP thinks ...along with the UN.. And yet, if renewables are so good, they could do it with renewables straight away. The lead times would be less, and they could build straight away.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #515 - May 16^th, 2023 at 6:44pm

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:06pm:

"while decreasing ff consumption".. because CO2 emission is a problem, so the CCP thinks ...along with the UN..

And yet, if renewables are so good, they could do it with renewables straight away. The lead times would be less, and they could build straight away. Roll Eyes

No, because we need an entire new transmission grid plus storage, to connect the new renewables sources (in deserts, offshore etc) to consumers... costing $62 trillion, according to one estimate....

Whereas new coal mines can be built alongside the existing grid.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #516 - May 16^th, 2023 at 6:58pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:44pm:

No, because we need an entire new transmission grid plus storage, to connect the new renewables sources (in deserts, offshore etc) to consumers... costing $62 trillion, according to one estimate....

That's not China. Remember, China has a vast number of slave labourers. Roll Eyes

That 62 trillion is globally. Australia with 1% needs 620 BILLION.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:44pm:

Whereas new coal mines can be built alongside the existing grid.

So what's the problem with building solar panels along the existing grid? Or Wind Turbines? Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #517 - May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:44pm:

No, because we need an entire new transmission grid plus storage, to connect the new renewables sources (in deserts, offshore etc) to consumers... costing $62 trillion, according to one estimate....

That's not China. Remember, China has a vast number of slave labourers. Roll Eyes

Still the new transmission grid and storage has to be built - a 2-decade project in ANY country, regardles of "slave labour". (and it's a pity the boring machine got bogged in the Oz snowy mountains....)

Quote:

That 62 trillion is globally. Australia with 1% needs 620 BILLION.

The cost of the subs?

And 2 decades to complete the transition, if they pull their fingers out.

Quote:

So what's the problem with building solar panels along the existing grid? Or Wind Turbines? Roll Eyes

Apart from rooftop solar, you need vast desert and off- shore farms, like the Sun Cable scheme.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #518 - May 16^th, 2023 at 8:07pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm:

Still the new transmission grid and storage has to be built - a 2-decade project in ANY country, regardles of "slave labour". (and it's a pity the boring machine got bogged in the Oz snowy mountains....)

Nope. Millions of cheap labourers make it really easy. The boring machine got stuck because of subsidence. The engineering must have been good. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm:

And 2 decades to complete the transition, if they pull their fingers out.

So it is not urgent then to curb CO2 emissions. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm:

Apart from rooftop solar, you need vast desert and off- shore farms, like the Sun Cable scheme.

So tell us how many of the endangered Southern Right Whales will be allowed to be killed.

The Sun Cable System is problematic, despite Twiggy and Cannon-Brooks. Twiggy's company is bleeding personnel despite high wages. Probably because they can see the problems others can't. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #519 - May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 8:07pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm:

Still the new transmission grid and storage has to be built - a 2-decade project in ANY country, regardles of "slave labour". (and it's a pity the boring machine got bogged in the Oz snowy mountains....)

Nope. Millions of cheap labourers make it really easy.

The poor blind conservative mind again:

China has 50 times the demand for energy than Oz, so will have to build 50 times as much infrastructure.

Quote:

The boring machine got stuck because of subsidence. The engineering must have been good. Roll Eyes

The point is ONE scheme of this type will require a certain workforce; China needs 50 times as many such schemes.

Quote:

So it is not urgent then to curb CO2 emissions. Roll Eyes

Classic conservative back to front thinking...
Curbing CO2 emissions ASAP is the whole point of the transition.

Quote:

So tell us how many of the endangered Southern Right Whales will be allowed to be killed.

Guard devices can be fitted.

Quote:

The Sun Cable System is problematic, despite Twiggy and Cannon-Brooks. Twiggy's company is bleeding personnel despite high wages. Probably because they can see the problems others can't. Roll Eyes

The Oz govt. should fund and build the world's largest solar farm - at no cost to you (other than a resource 'opportunity' cost), to supply the Oz grid with free electricity.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #520 - May 17^th, 2023 at 12:15pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

China has 50 times the demand for energy than Oz, so will have to build 50 times as much infrastructure.

But solar panels are quick to erect, they are cheaper...so why not build in solar panels instead of longer term solutions like Coal plant. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

The point is ONE scheme of this type will require a certain workforce; China needs 50 times as many such schemes.

They need 50 boring machines? Why? China has many more people than Oz, approx 63 times. If they were really serious, they would use the people from the Evergrande type projects. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

Classic conservative back to front thinking...

Nope. The IPCC, whom you adore, has said in one of its reports, that emissions must peak within 3 years.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2314731-global-emissions-must-peak-in-just-...

But you are saying we have more than 10 years. And China up to 35 years. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

Guard devices can be fitted.

Guard devices? What you want to give them ear plugs? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

The Oz govt. should fund and build the world's largest solar farm - at no cost to you (other than a resource 'oppotiunbity' cost).

So about 6 billion dollars and it will only be "opportunity cost". Remember, MMT says they have to adjust for inflation. That is inflationary. Increased inflation increases taxes.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #521 - May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

But solar panels are quick to erect, they are cheaper...so why not build in solar panels instead of longer term solutions like Coal plant. Roll Eyes

You forgot already; the brand new grid, state interconnectors and required storage? - $500 billion your estimate for Oz.

Quote:

They need 50 boring machines? Why? China has many more people than Oz, approx 63 times. If they were really serious, they would use the people from the Evergrande type projects. Roll Eyes

Picks and shovels and trowels? Much slower than boring machines....

Quote:

The IPCC, whom you adore, has said in one of its reports, that emissions must peak within 3 years.

Well then, that means we have to stop everything, and devote all economic activity to the transition (apart from maintaing food production). Insane wars and arms races (inc. subs) are out, for a start. Do we want civilization to exist?

Quote:

But you are saying we have more than 10 years. And China up to 35 years. Roll Eyes

I am saying get on with the transition ASAP. The 1st world has signed up to net zero by 2050, only a decade before China (and 2 decades before India iirc)

Quote:

Guard devices? What you want to give them ear plugs? Grin

No; sonic warnings, and non-injurious physical barriers.

Quote:

So about 6 billion dollars and it will only be "opportunity cost". Remember, MMT says they have to adjust for inflation. That is inflationary. Increased inflation increases taxes.

I love exposing your ignorance about money:

MMT says supply of available resources must balance demand for resources, to avoid inflation. Spot the difference?

Note: "opportunity cost" is a resource cost, not a money cost; money is always created ex nihilo.

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« Last Edit: May 17^th, 2023 at 12:53pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #522 - May 17^th, 2023 at 1:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

You forgot already; the brand new grid, state interconnectors and required storage? - $500 billion your estimate for Oz.

Nope. I was talking about China - 63 Times Australia's population.

And it was 620 Billions for OZ.

https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/145Country/22-145Countri...

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

Picks and shovels and trowels? Much slower than boring machines...

China has far more powerful machines than pick and shovels. Roll Eyes

"'Great Wall', China's largest tunnel borer, to weaken foreign firms' monopoly"

"XCMG builds “world’s largest” 400 t XDE440 mining truck for Zijin Mining and China Minmetals"

You seem to have this naive view that China is really, really, low on the mechanised workforce state. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

Well then, that means we have to stop everything, and devote all economic activity to the transition (apart from maintaing food production).

But you don't want China to participate. And we need fossil fuels for fertiliser. Something else China is great at. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

I am saying get on with the transition ASAP. The 1st world has signed up to net zero by 2050, only a decade before China (and 2 decades before India iirc)

But emissions from China and India are the highest. And India also has a large mechanised workforce. Roll Eyes

So the solar panels are cheap, they have a mechanised workforce, they can build solar far faster than ff infrastructure. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

No; sonic warnings, and non-injurious physical barriers.

Sonic Warnings are themselves harmful. Non-Injurious barriers? Like BIG shark nets to keep them from migrating? Oh dear. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

I love exposing your ignorance about money:

You are the one said MMT had to keep a tight reign on inflation. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

MMT says supply of available resources must balance demand for resources, to avoid inflation

But the available manufactured resources are from overseas, mainly China. That creates a balance of payments problem, which of itself is inflationary. And we know China uses FF to create Solar panels, wind turbines etc. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #523 - May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 1:46pm:

I'm talking about China

I'm talking about the whole world, as we must.

[/quote]China has far more powerful machines than pick and shovels. Roll Eyes

[/quote]

And China must build 60 times the infratstructure, which will take longer than Oz because China must lift its living standards at the same time (unlike Oz)

Quote:

But you don't want China to participate. And we need fossil fuels for fertiliser. Something else China is great at. Roll Eyes

More of your crippled comprehension; every nation must participate regardless of each nation's resources ie some will need assistance.

Quote:

But emissions from China and India are the highest. And India also has a large mechanised workforce. Roll Eyes

Irrelevant, as pointed out above. EVERY nation must transition using all avaialbel resources ...ASAP....

Quote:

So the solar panels are cheap, they have a mechanised workforce, they can build solar far faster than ff infrastructure. Roll Eyes

[/quote ]

Already proved wrong: buiding storage and transmission grids takes years.

[quote]But the available manufactured resources are from overseas, mainly China.

Interesingly, paranoid Western "freedom" ideologues are accusing China of employing 'forced labour' to produce PVs....and want Oz to produce its own PVs. Madness.

Quote:

That creates a balance of payments problem, which of itself is inflationary.

In your delusional (self-interested) world overseen by the the US stooge the IMF ("Instant Misery Fund"), which forces governments to borrow money "which must be repaid with interest".

Quote:

And we know China uses FF to create Solar panels, wind turbines etc. Roll Eyes

Of course, while they are trying to keep the lights on for 600 million poor people, while being the world's factory.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #524 - May 17^th, 2023 at 3:11pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

And China must build 60 times the infratstructure, which will take longer than Oz because China must lift its living standards at the same time (unlike Oz)

Nope. More machines makes it less times than Oz. With such a large workforce it is easy to upskill. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

More of your crippled comprehension; every nation must participate regardless of each nation's resources ie some will need assistance.

But China is out until at least 2035 but more likely 2050. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

Irrelevant, as pointed out above. EVERY nation must transition using all avaialbel resources ...ASAP....

But NOT India and China. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

Interesingly, paranoid Western "freedom" ideologues are accusing China of employing 'forced labour' to produce PVs....and want Oz to produce its own PVs. Madness.

Yes they are using forced labour but unfortunately we have an expensive workforce and a low population. That means we do have economy of scale to do it here. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

In your delusional (self-interested) world overseen by the the US stooge the IMF ("Instant Misery Fund"), which forces governments to borrow money "which must be repaid with interest".

So you want a world where everything is free. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

Of course, while they are trying to keep the lights on for 600 million poor people, while being the world's factory.

You miss the point. They are made with FF. They can't be made any other way. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #525 - May 18^th, 2023 at 12:38pm

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 3:11pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

And China must build 60 times the infratstructure, which will take longer than Oz because China must lift its living standards at the same time (unlike Oz)

Nope. More machines makes it less times than Oz. With such a large workforce it is easy to upskill. Roll Eyes

Wrong again. It takes longer to build new pumped hydro storage and the necessary new transmission grid, than new coal plants which can feed into the existing grid.

Therefore China must keep building coal plants to lift the living standards of its poor, while it continues to build renewables faster than any other country.

Quote:

But NOT India and China. Grin

You are still forgetting the poverty reduction task facing India and China NOW; nevertheless with Dutton and co in Oz, China is likely to achieve net zero before Oz...

Quote:

Yes they are using forced labour but unfortunately we have an expensive workforce and a low population. That means we do have economy of scale to do it here. Roll Eyes

I think you meant we DON'T have economy of scale here? (Oz PVs will be much more expensive than China's, just as an Oz NEV would be much more expensive than a BYD import).

Quote:

So you want a world where everything is free. Roll Eyes

Not "everything", just the essentials. Spot the difference?

Quote:

You miss the point. They are made with FF. They can't be made any other way. Roll Eyes

Nonsense. The quantum of renewables powering the Chinese grid is growing all the time. Eventually eveything will be made with renewables.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #526 - May 18^th, 2023 at 1:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 12:38pm:

It takes longer to build new pumped hydro storage and the necessary new transmission grid, than new coal plants which can feed into the existing grid.

Not when you are using the old retired coal plants. Roll Eyes

Pumped storage is only one POSSIBLE solution. It depends heavily on topography.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 12:38pm:

Therefore China must keep building coal plants to lift the living standards of its poor, while it continues to build renewables faster than any other country.

So again, what in effect you are saying, is that cutting emissions is not urgent. Thanks for that. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 12:38pm:

You are still forgetting the poverty reduction task facing India and China NOW; nevertheless with Dutton and co in Oz, China is likely to achieve net zero before Oz...

But apparently it is not urgent. Australia's 500Mt vs China 2912Mt. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 12:38pm:

I think you meant we DON'T have economy of scale here?

Yes, I did.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 12:38pm:

Not "everything", just the essentials. Spot the difference?

And you decide the essentials. Right. Roll Eyes

Realistically, food, power, transportation, medicines, jobs

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 12:38pm:

The quantum of renewables powering the Chinese grid is growing all the time. Eventually eveything will be made with renewables.

Nope. Some of the things are inherently heavy on power.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #528 - May 18^th, 2023 at 1:57pm

lee wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 1:25pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 12:38pm:

It takes longer to build new pumped hydro storage and the necessary new transmission grid, than new coal plants which can feed into the existing grid.

Not when you are using the old retired coal plants. Roll Eyes

Pumped storage is only one POSSIBLE solution. It depends heavily on topography.

You aren't using only old retired ones, you are building new ones next the current grid as well, while also building the new renewables infrastructure which takes longer (and pumped hydro storage will be part of the mix).

Quote:

So again, what in effect you are saying, is that cutting emissions is not urgent.

No Im saying poverty eradication via fast increase in energy use is ALSO urgent in developing countries, unlike in the developed economies.

Quote:

But apparently it is not urgent. Australia's 500Mt vs China 2912Mt. Roll Eyes

Addressed above; poverty reduction AND emissions reductions are both urgent in developing economies, whereas Oz has no excuse at all for increasing ff use.

Quote:

And you decide the essentials. Right. Roll Eyes

Yes... you blind, greedy "freedom" ideologue.....

Quote:

Realistically, food, power, transportation, medicines, jobs

Well..blow me down, you listed the essentials yourself, except housing; but note, private transport and private housing is NOT an essential, you can still buy whatever house and vehicle you choose to buy, if you can afford it.

Quote:

Nope. Some of the things are inherently heavy on power.

Irrelevant; you are apparently denying renewables (and maybe nuclear) will one-day power the economy.

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« Last Edit: May 18^th, 2023 at 2:02pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #529 - May 18^th, 2023 at 3:42pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 1:57pm:

You aren't using only old retired ones, you are building new ones next the current grid as well, while also building the new renewables infrastructure which takes longer (and pumped hydro storage will be part of the mix).

So they can't use old retired ones? Oh dear. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 1:57pm:

No Im saying poverty eradication via fast increase in energy use is ALSO urgent in developing countries, unlike in the developed economies.

Which means CO2 emissions are not urgent. Remember the not science base IPCC report said 3 Years. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 1:57pm:

Addressed above; poverty reduction AND emissions reductions are both urgent in developing economies, whereas Oz has no excuse at all for increasing ff use.

Nope. CO2 emissions either are or are not urgent. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 1:57pm:

Yes...

Thanks for that. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 1:57pm:

Irrelevant; you are apparently denying renewables (and maybe nuclear) will one-day power the economy.

Nope. Only renewables. Too much variation inter hour, inter day, inter month . Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #530 - May 18^th, 2023 at 4:28pm

lee wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 3:42pm:

So they can't use old retired ones? Oh dear. Roll Eyes

You missed "only", ["You aren't using only old retired ones"]; they might upgrade old plants even more quickly. Your back to front thinking exposed again.

Quote:

Which means CO2 emissions are not urgent. Remember the not science base IPCC report said 3 Years. Roll Eyes

Poor constricted thinking; BOTH development and emissions reduction are urgent in a developing economy, whereas in Oz only emissions reduction is urgent.

Quote:

CO2 emissions either are or are not urgent. Roll Eyes

Poor cripppled brain; of course you don't care about poverty reduction as well as emissions reduction.

Quote:

Nope. Only renewables. Too much variation inter hour, inter day, inter month . Roll Eyes

Poor crippled brain, as usual. "Nope" is the limit of your powers of analysis.

btw, I accept your concession re "'free' essentials"....

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« Last Edit: May 18^th, 2023 at 4:37pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #531 - May 18^th, 2023 at 4:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 4:28pm:

You missed "only", ["You aren't using only old retired ones"]; they might upgrade old plants even more quickly.

Why upgrade when Solar is so cheap and faster to install. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 4:28pm:

Poor constricted thinking; BOTH development and emissions reduction are urgent in a developing economy, whereas in Oz only emissions reduction is urgent.

But 3 years makes it most urgent. Development can progress at a slower pace. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 4:28pm:

Poor cripppled brain; of course you don't care about poverty reduction as well as emissions reduction.

Actually I don't care about emissions reductions. Poverty reduction yes. But your claim is that emissions MUST be reduced. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 4:28pm:

"Nope" is the limit of your powers of analysis.

So analyse inter hour, inter day and inter month variation, but I will add seasonal variation. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 4:28pm:

btw, I accept your concession re "'free' essentials"....

So you prove once again you can't pass comprehension. Nothing in my post, or your previous post, said anything about 'free'. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #532 - May 19^th, 2023 at 12:43pm

lee wrote on May 18^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

But 3 years makes it most urgent. Development can progress at a slower pace. Roll Eyes

Easy for a comfortable conseravtive to say.

Quote:

Actually I don't care about emissions reductions.

And you are in a rapidly decreasing minority, while filthy ffs are also injurious to health, regardless of CO2 emissions.

Quote:

Poverty reduction yes. But your claim is that emissions MUST be reduced. Roll Eyes

Pull the other one: confortable conservative "freedom" ideologues, committed to the current neoclassical TINA system, aren't interested in poverty reduction beyond their failed 'trickle down' BS which definitely doesn't reduce poverty.

Quote:

So analyse inter hour, inter day and inter month variation, but I will add seasonal variation. Roll Eyes

No need: sufficient capacity and sufficient storage (perhaps with always on 10% nuclear) will elinimiate filthy ffs forever.

Quote:

So you prove once again you can't pass comprehension. Nothing in my post, or your previous post, said anything about 'free'. Roll Eyes

Dementia as well as ideologically crippled..; you originally claimed (several posts back) I want "everything for free", and ignored my expose' of your error .... and now you want to limit the discussion to "my post, or your previous post". Got it

I accept your concession re your false "free" assertion.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #533 - May 19^th, 2023 at 12:50pm

Under the Greens policies we have suffered in Australia.
The prices for electricity have doubled and tripled - people can't afford energy.
Many old people will die from the cold this winter and
many places will go out of business due to the high costs.

We should have built one last large coal fired power station to tide
us over until renewables were cheap enough.
We could have used the cleanest coal in the world -
anthracite from Queensland's Bowen basin.

Meanwhile -
China gets off Scott free and is building scores of coal fired power stations
and has cheap energy.

The Greens are destroying Australia.

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #534 - May 19^th, 2023 at 1:16pm The Greens want a communist utopia so they need to destroy Australia first. Aussies were sucked in by them. The Greens are evil.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #535 - May 19^th, 2023 at 1:45pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 12:43pm:

Easy for a comfortable conseravtive to say.

But if CO2 emissions are so important, it must be done. Besides, China is a developing Country in name only. Roll Eyes

"China's loans pushing world’s poorest countries to brink of collapse"
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/clock-hit-midnight-china-loans-050244288.html

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 12:43pm:

And you are in a rapidly decreasing minority, while filthy ffs are also injurious to health, regardless of CO2 emissions.

Being in the minority doesn't make me wrong. Roll Eyes

But you haven't shown where fossil fuels have been "injurious to health". Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 12:43pm:

Pull the other one: confortable conservative "freedom" ideologues, committed to the current neoclassical TINA system, aren't interested in poverty reduction beyond their failed 'trickle down' BS which definitely doesn't reduce poverty.

So says tgd the classical thought policeman. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 12:43pm:

No need: sufficient capacity and sufficient storage (perhaps with always on 10% nuclear) will elinimiate filthy ffs forever.

And yet you haven't been able to show it.

"You want to run towards that light? Here’s a sneak preview of what you’ll get. The U.S., more advanced than Canada in terms of wind/solar penetration – some states now producing significant proportions of power from wind or solar – recently received a very cold bucket of water over the head with respect to renewables plans from none other than FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission) commissioners.

Note that these commissioners include chairman Willie Phillips, a Biden appointee. Here are quotes from commissioners (including Mr. Phillips) testifying at a Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee hearing: “The United States is heading for a catastrophic situation in terms of reliability…We face unprecedented challenges to the reliability of our nation’s electric system…[there is a] looming reliability crisis in our electricity markets.”"

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/05/18/column-net-zero-2050-thats-nothing-hold-m...

Wow. Electricity reliability is falling even before the 2050 cut off date. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 12:43pm:

Dementia as well as ideologically crippled..; you originally claimed (several posts back) I want "everything for free", and ignored my expose' of your error .... and now you want to limit the discussion to "my post, or your previous post".

So you want "everything for free". Why does that apply to me? But I just searched and there are only 3 instances of that phrase. And guess how far back they go? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 12:43pm:

accept your concession re your false "free" assertion.

And another example of your twisting words to suit yourself. Some may call it lying. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #536 - May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm

lee wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 1:45pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 12:43pm:

Easy for a comfortable conseravtive to say.

But if CO2 emissions are so important, it must be done. Besides, China is a developing Country in name only. Roll Eyes

China has the largest middle class (c.400 million) in the world , yes; but around double that are still relatively poor, hence its "developing" status.

Quote:

"China's loans pushing world’s poorest countries to brink of collapse"
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/clock-hit-midnight-china-loans-050244288.html

That's hypocritical Western propaganda; the IMF, World Bank and private rich-country lenders are the biggest money lenders (usurers) in the world, China actually helps infrastructure development in poor countries.

Quote:

Being in the minority doesn't make me wrong. Roll Eyes

But your lies re filthy ffs ARE wrong.

Quote:

So says tgd the classical thought policeman. Grin

Crippled brain stuff: your conservative TINA fallacy, defending neoclassical 'scarcity' BS, is THE "thought policeman".

Quote:

And yet you haven't been able to show it.

Common sense, but of course, in your case....

Quote:

"You want to run towards that light? Here’s a sneak preview of what you’ll get. The U.S., more advanced than Canada in terms of wind/solar penetration – some states now producing significant proportions of power from wind or solar – recently received a very cold bucket of water over the head with respect to renewables plans from none other than FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission) commissioners.

Note that these commissioners include chairman Willie Phillips, a Biden appointee. Here are quotes from commissioners (including Mr. Phillips) testifying at a Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee hearing: “The United States is heading for a catastrophic situation in terms of reliability…We face unprecedented challenges to the reliability of our nation’s electric system…[there is a] looming reliability crisis in our electricity markets.”"

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/05/18/column-net-zero-2050-thats-nothing-hold-m...

Wow. Electricity reliability is falling even before the 2050 cut off date. Roll Eyes

Poor planning, due in part to the involvement of private sector greed trying to prolong ffs via money gouging of the citizens.

Quote:

So you want "everything for free". Why does that apply to me? But I just searched and there are only 3 instances of that phrase. And guess how far back they go? Grin

Your argument failed to distiguish between essentials versus discretionaries.

Quote:

And another example of your twisting words to suit yourself. Some may call it lying. Roll Eyes

No; another example of the crippled conservative mind; to repeat: I'm not arguing (nor did I) for "everything to be free" as you asserted.
And in subsequent posts you ignored my distinction between essentials and discretionaries.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #537 - May 19^th, 2023 at 5:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

China has the largest middle class (c.400 million) in the world , yes; but around double that are still relatively poor, hence its "developing" status.

"Relatively poor" is not the same as living in poverty. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

hat's hypocritical Western propaganda; the IMF, World Bank and private rich-country lenders are the biggest money lenders (usurers) in the world, China actually helps infrastructure development in poor countries.

Except when they can't pay back. Then they come back with an alternative; like fishing rights. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

But your lies re filthy ffs ARE wrong.

And yet you haven't shown that. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

Crippled brain stuff: your conservative TINA fallacy, defending neoclassical 'scarcity' BS, is THE "thought policeman".

Poor little marxist. The truth hurts doesn't it? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

Common sense, but of course, in your case....

Ah "common sense" something of which you have show a distinct lack. Seeing as you don't do science, engineering etc, you rely on 'feelings'. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

Poor planning, due in part to the involvement of private sector greed trying to prolong ffs via money gouging of the citizens.

Poor planning in that renewables are overtaking the generation scene. That is not the fault of fossil fuel companies. Closing down ff generators means they no longer have that income stream. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

Your argument failed to distiguish between essentials versus discretionaries.

And nothing to do with "free". Thanks for that. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

No; another example of the crippled conservative mind; to repeat: I'm not arguing (nor did I) for "everything to be free" as you asserted.

And yet you can't provide the quote where I said it? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 2:48pm:

And in subsequent posts you ignored my distinction between essentials and discretionaries.

Did I?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #538 - May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am

lee wrote on May 19^th, 2023 at 5:17pm:

"Relatively poor" is not the same as living in poverty. Roll Eyes

...like the c. 10% living in poverty in Oz, while you have your head up your a*rs.

Quote:

Except when they can't pay back. Then they come back with an alternative; like fishing rights. Roll Eyes

I'm trying to inform them the whole issue of government 'debt' is a private sector scam enforced on governments by the IMF down; participating BRI countries need not be constrained by debt, but on available resources, and co-operation via voluntary agreement between countries, since money is always created out of thin air

Quote:

And yet you haven't shown that. Roll Eyes

You don't have google? Sad.

Quote:

Poor little marxist. The truth hurts doesn't it? Grin

No; truth liberates, unlike your monstrous neoclassical TINA ideology which imprisons the world in poverty and war.

Quote:

Ah "common sense" something of which you have show a distinct lack. Seeing as you don't do science, engineering etc, you rely on 'feelings'. Roll Eyes

The Sahara alone can power the world: your lack of vision re engineering is your problem.

Quote:

Poor planning in that renewables are overtaking the generation scene. That is not the fault of fossil fuel companies. Closing down ff generators means they no longer have that income stream. Roll Eyes

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/economist-tells-leaders-to-rethink-gree...

Economist tells leaders to rethink green evolution

Prof Garnaut said there were powerful lessons to be learned from looking back in history, to the two periods when Australia got the settings right for true economic evolution.

"One was post-war reconstruction, where we thought differently about everything."

The result was a quarter of a century of strong employment growth, a growing population, rising incomes, low inflation and low unemployment.

ie, when deficit spending was the norm, before 'balanced (govt.) budgets' became de rigueur

Quote:

And nothing to do with "free". Thanks for that. Roll Eyes

Low IQ: the discussion about "free" was in the context of MMT's "free" money.

Quote:

And yet you can't provide the quote where I said it? Grin

Dementia as well: now you are denying you said "you (ie me) want everything free".

Quote:

Did I?

Yes, and you are still denying it; of clourse you can take it back now and agree I don't want everything "free".

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #539 - May 20^th, 2023 at 1:48pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

...like the c. 10% living in poverty in Oz, while you have your head up your a*rs.

So once again it is feelings not facts. "relatively poor" is relative and not the same as poverty. BTW you misspelt a*se. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

I'm trying to inform them the whole issue of government 'debt' is a private sector scam enforced on governments by the IMF down; participating BRI countries need not be constrained by debt, but on available resources, and co-operation via voluntary agreement between countries, since money is always created out of thin air

You are trying to tell the Chinese? How is that going? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

You don't have google? Sad.

Yes I do. But you still can't offer proof. Perhaps you don't have google. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

No; truth liberates, unlike your monstrous neoclassical TINA ideology which imprisons the world in poverty and war.

So the Marxist countries only did it for love? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

The Sahara alone can power the world: your lack of vision re engineering is your problem.

And yet you said all they had to do was put the solar panels "up in the air". Wind blown sand up to 1,000m and more would suggest that the notion is foolish; but you KNOW better. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/economist-tells-leaders-to-rethink-gree...

Ross Garnaut, definitely an economist, definitely not an engineer. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

Low IQ: the discussion about "free" was in the context of MMT's "free" money.

Ah. See what happens when you explain exactly what you mean. So with free money everything is free? Don't need workers then. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

Dementia as well: now you are denying you said "you (ie me) want everything free".

Nope. Now you are talking about MMT again. You do get sidetracked easily. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

Yes, and you are still denying it; of clourse you can take it back now and agree I don't want everything "free".

You haven't said anything about paying for goods, except of course to say it is all the capitalists fault for making people (and Countries) pay interest. Your great hope China isn't doing it, and no they are not constrained by the IMF, World Bank or anyone else. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #540 - May 20^th, 2023 at 4:56pm

lee wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 1:48pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 11:15am:

...like the c. 10% living in poverty in Oz, while you have your head up your a*rs.

So once again it is feelings not facts. "relatively poor" is relative and not the same as poverty.

Both are unsupportable, but you are comfortable....

Quote:

BTW you misspelt a*se. Roll Eyes

Thanks.

Quote:

You are trying to tell the Chinese? How is that going? Grin

Hopefully better than with the dead-heads in our own central bank and treasury; a recent report in Global Times suggests the PBofC understand the real economy need not be constrained by fake 'debt' issues.

Quote:

Yes I do. But you still can't offer proof. Perhaps you don't have google. Roll Eyes

priceless; Ozpol is good for a laugh sometimes.

Quote:

So the Marxist countries only did it for love? Grin

Marx said: "workers of the world, unite"; but the bosses remained greedy....

Quote:

And yet you said all they had to do was put the solar panels "up in the air". Wind blown sand up to 1,000m and more would suggest that the notion is foolish; but you KNOW better. Grin

Ok I'll get you a proper job, cleaning the panels after a dust-storm.

Quote:

Ross Garnaut, definitely an economist, definitely not an engineer. Grin

Already had that argument re Steve Keen. btw the engineers are roaring to go in the OZ hot deserts; see the huge Sun Cable project. As usual, the barrier is fake debt concerns, not engineering. So the issue is finding the right deserts conditions around the world.

Quote:

Ah. See what happens when you explain exactly what you mean. So with free money everything is free? Don't need workers then. Roll Eyes

See what happens when blind TINA ideology cripples the capacity for rational analysis?

Only the essentials (which you kindly listed, with some omissions) should be paid for by the currency-issuing government; workers are always needed. Don't worry, you don't have the IQ to understand the difference - or more likely, your thinking is clouded by delusional ideology and ignorance of how money is created.

Quote:

Nope. Now you are talking about MMT again. You do get sidetracked easily. Grin

Dementia: you claimed I "want everthing for free", in response to my assertion central banks can fund essentials for "free".

Quote:

You haven't said anything about paying for goods, except of course to say it is all the capitalists fault for making people (and Countries) pay interest.

Making the currency-issuing govt. pay interest is the problem; "people" get themselves into debt as they choose , but requiring currency-issuing govts. to tax or borrow (by issuing debt) in order to spend IS the problem.

Listen Up : currency issuing govts can purchase whatever (goods and services) are available for sale in the nation's currency, without taxing or borrowing. Such governments have to balance supply of and demand for available resoures, not money or 'balanced budgets'.

Quote:

Your great hope China isn't doing it, and no they are not constrained by the IMF, World Bank or anyone else. Roll Eyes

The IMF ('Instant Misery Fund') and World Bank are overseeing a debt crises among poorer nations around the world, and blaming China...while the US is close to imploding because of fake debt concerns.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #541 - May 20^th, 2023 at 6:10pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 4:56pm:

Both are unsupportable, but you are comfortable....

You have absolutely no idea of my circumstances. I have super, a part old age pension and a small invalidity pension. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 4:56pm:

Hopefully better than with the dead-heads in our own central bank and treasury; a recent report in Global Times suggests the PBofC understand the real economy need not be constrained by fake 'debt' issues.

So no progress yet. I see you didn't link the article. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 4:56pm:

priceless; Ozpol is good for a laugh sometimes.

And once again you show you don't have proof. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 4:56pm:

Marx said: "workers of the world, unite"; but the bosses remained greedy....

now that is funny. Grin

.thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 4:56pm:

Ok I'll get you a proper job, cleaning the panels after a dust-storm.

Don't forget these are well paying jobs. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 4:56pm:

Already had that argument re Steve Keen. btw the engineers are roaring to go in the OZ hot deserts; see the huge Sun Cable project.

The Sun Cable project is running out of legs. Maybe they can use yours. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 4:56pm:

The IMF ('Instant Misery Fund') and World Bank are overseeing a debt crises among poorer nations around the world, and blaming China...while the US is close to imploding because of fake debt concerns.

Blaming China? For allowing the poor countries to borrow or IMF, World Bank refusing them credit, except for "approved green projects", that you don't want China to use? Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #542 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm

lee wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 6:10pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 20^th, 2023 at 4:56pm:

Both are unsupportable, but you are comfortable....

You have absolutely no idea of my circumstances. I have super, a part old age pension and a small invalidity pension. Roll Eyes

Only a part pension? Obviously your financial circumstances are comfortable (assuming you own your own house).

Quote:

So no progress yet. I see you didn't link the article. Wink

The article was a week ago. Note: deluded Western "debt" fetishists have been predicting China's collapse for a decade....while gdp per capita has doubled.

Quote:

And once again you show you don't have proof. Grin

Take it from me: I have google.

Quote:

now that is funny. Grin

Any time..

Quote:

Don't forget these are well paying jobs. Roll Eyes

No.. above poverty (minimum wage) jobs; but don't worry, a properly functional government will be able to subsidize your necessities....

Quote:

The Sun Cable project is running out of legs.

because of a dispute between two profit-seeking 'titans of industry'. It should be a public sector project.

Quote:

Blaming China?

That's what YOU - and the IMF - are doing, did you forget?

Quote:

For allowing the poor countries to borrow

Poor countries ought to be given the support they need, not saddled with unapayable IMF debt. As for China's BRI, it is an offer of Chinese know-how to develop infrastructure in poor countries, on terms agreeable to both parties. Like I said, I'm trying the show the CCP how it can achieve this vital outcome without getting bogged down in fake 'debt' issues, given the Instant Misery Fund (IMF) and the World' Bank are a total waste of time.

Quote:

or IMF, World Bank refusing them credit, except for "approved green projects",

Poor countries need free credit for all necessary infrastructure.

Quote:

that you don't want China to use? Roll Eyes

I want China to transition to renewables ASAP, but China too is fiddling around with carbon taxes...

Notice I had to break your original paragraph into its many confused separate elements, to make some sense out of it....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #543 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 2:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

Only a part pension? Obviously your financial circumstances are comfortable (assuming you own your own house).

Ah assumptions, assumptions. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

The article was a week ago. Note: deluded Western "debt" fetishists have been predicting China's collapse for a decade....while gdp per capita has doubled.

And still doubling down on coal. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

Take it from me: I have google.

But you can't provide proof of ff causing anything, else you would post it. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

No.. above poverty (minimum wage) jobs; but don't worry, a properly functional government will be able to subsidize your necessities....

But all the renewables "experts" say high paying jobs. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

because of a dispute between two profit-seeking 'titans of industry'. It should be a public sector project.

I'd rather private capital do it. They canpobviously afford it.

"Sun Cable – considered to be the world’s biggest renewable energy export project – announced[1] this week it had entered voluntary administration following[2] “the absence of alignment” with shareholders. "

"Commentators have suggested the apparent disagreement is a reflection on the commercial and technical viability of the project itself. Matthew Warren, former chief executive of the Australian Energy Council, went so far as to describe[18] Sun Cable as “a quiet running joke inside the electricity industry” and that it:

reflected the ignorance, egos and quest for notoriety of its proponents rather than the needs of its prospective customers."

"Sun Cable is obviously a very ambitious project. Yet much too little information is publicly available to pronounce, with any certainty, on its commercial and technical viability. "

https://www.thetimes.com.au/world/19603-the-a$30-billion-sun-cable-crash-is-a-se...

Oops

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

That's what YOU - and the IMF - are doing, did you forget?

What have I blamed China for. Be specific. Human rights abuses? Yep. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

Poor countries ought to be given the support they need, not saddled with unapayable IMF debt. As for China's BRI, it is an offer of Chinese know-how to develop infrastructure in poor countries, on terms agreeable to both parties. Like I said, I'm trying the show the CCP how it can achieve this vital outcome without getting bogged down in fake 'debt' issues, given the Instant Misery Fund (IMF) and the World' Bank are a total waste of time.

So still not going well. Maybe you should get Steve Keen on the job. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

Poor countries need free credit for all necessary infrastructure.

But they won't give it for non-renewable power. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

I want China to transition to renewables ASAP, but China too is fiddling around with carbon taxes...

So sad for you that are not listening to you. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:27pm:

Notice I had to break your original paragraph into its many confused separate elements, to make some sense out of it....

Only because you don't understand complex paragraphs. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #544 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm

lee wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 2:00pm:

Ah assumptions, assumptions. Grin

"Cut off for full pension,

Single: Homeowner $280,000 Non-homeowner $504,500.

.. half a million bucks....

Quote:

And still doubling down on coal. Roll Eyes

Yes, in order to double gdp per capita again, to attain developed status ASAP, while transitioning to renewables ASAP (already explained to you...)

Quote:

But you can't provide proof of ff causing anything, else you would post it. Roll Eyes

Already did many times, as archived in this thread; your crippled brain doesn't accept what everyone else knows (including google).

Quote:

But all the renewables "experts" say high paying jobs. Roll Eyes

They are referring to all the jobs in construction and design, not suitable for low IQ people like yourself...pity about that.

Quote:

I'd rather private capital do it. They canpobviously afford it.

But being greedy, they fight among themselves, so nothing gets done...

Quote:

"Sun Cable – considered to be the world’s biggest renewable energy export project – announced[1] this week it had entered voluntary administration following[2] “the absence of alignment” with shareholders. "

"Commentators have suggested the apparent disagreement is a reflection on the commercial and technical viability of the project itself. Matthew Warren, former chief executive of the Australian Energy Council, went so far as to describe[18] Sun Cable as “a quiet running joke inside the electricity industry” and that it:
reflected the ignorance, egos and quest for notoriety of its proponents rather than the needs of its prospective customers."

Thanks for making my argument. As for "commentators have suggested" ...that is meaningless waffle by ff proponents.

Quote:

"Sun Cable is obviously a very ambitious project. Yet much too little information is publicly available to pronounce, with any certainty, on its commercial and technical viability. "

Er 10 PV panels on a roof, or millions in a desert farm...all the same technology.

Quote:

https://www.thetimes.com.au/world/19603-the-a$30-billion-sun-cable-crash-is-a-se...

Oops

Oops? Again you are arguing against yourself. "doesn-t-spell-the-end"...

Quote:

What have I blamed China for. Be specific. Human rights abuses? Yep. Roll Eyes

Which is hypocritical Western garbage; check out conditions in some black communities in Oz...

"poverty is the worst form of violence": Gandhi.

Whereas I want China to drop any connection to obsolete Western monetary orthodoxy.

Quote:

So still not going well. Maybe you should get Steve Keen on the job. Grin

I'll see what I can do....

Quote:

But they won't give it for non-renewable power.

The IMF won't give ANYTHING for ANYTHING, without burdensome debt repayments, masquerading as 'debt' relief'. The Chinese at least create beneficial infrastructure in poor countries.

Quote:

So sad for you that are not listening to you. Roll Eyes

Sad for the world, too. Remains to be seen how dysfunctional the global economy will become, while greedy private financiers deny currency-issuing governments the ability to finance public policy, resulting in poor nations being strangled by the IMF.

Quote:

Only because you don't understand complex paragraphs. Roll Eyes

Obvious idiocy; each element in it was wrong as I showed, so there's no way the totality could be correct.

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« Last Edit: May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:10pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #545 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:44pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

"Cut off for full pension,

Single: Homeowner $280,000 Non-homeowner $504,500.

.. half a million bucks....

That's the assets test dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

Yes, in order to double gdp per capita again, to attain developed status ASAP, while transitioning to renewables ASAP (already explained to you...)

So CO2 reduction is definitely not urgent. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

Already did many times, as archived in this thread; your crippled brain doesn't accept what everyone else knows (including google).

Nope. You made claims and they didn't mention Fossil Fuels. You made claims about pm2.5 that weren't based, in your terms, "real world data" because it was from statistical studies. No autopsies. You are a complete failure. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

They are referring to all the jobs in construction and design, not suitable for low IQ people like yourself...pity about that.

So those many highly skilled jobs aren't. Just a few. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

But being greedy, they fight among themselves, so nothing gets done...

Nope. They could go it alone. I mean everyone says it is so cheap. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

Thanks for making my argument. As for "commentators have suggested" ...that is meaningless waffle by ff proponents.

You highlighted the wrong bit.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

"Commentators have suggested the apparent disagreement is a reflection on the commercial and technical viability of the project itself.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

Er 10 PV panels on a roof, or millions in a desert farm...all the same technology.

Yes it is. With more of the restrictions. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

Oops? Again you are arguing against yourself. "doesn-t-spell-the-end"...

And it doesn't show any proof of concept at scale. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

Which is hypocritical Western garbage; check out conditions in some black communities in Oz...

Yeah. Remote communities where they bash teachers, health workers etc. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

I'll see what I can do....

The Green dream LIVES. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

The IMF won't give ANYTHING for ANYTHING, without burdensome debt repayments, masquerading as 'debt' relief'. The Chinese at least create beneficial infrastructure in poor countries.

Ah yes. "China’s ‘debt-trap diplomacy’ is about to challenge Papua New Guinea — and Australia"

and others. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

Sad for the world, too. Remains to be seen how dysfunctional the global economy will become, while greedy private financiers deny currency-issuing governments the ability to finance public policy, resulting in poor nations being strangled by the IMF.

And the green blob on the path to nut zero. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

Obvious idiocy; each element in it was wrong as I showed, so there's no way the totality could be correct.

Nope. Your confirmation bias showed that. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #546 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm

lee wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:44pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 6:00pm:

"Cut off for full pension,

Single: Homeowner $280,000 Non-homeowner $504,500.

.. half a million bucks....

That's the assets test dummy. Roll Eyes

And you have too much in 'assets' to get the full pension

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So CO2 reduction is definitely not urgent. Roll Eyes

Both urgent, unlike in Oz which only has to deal with emissions reduction ASAP (since Oz is already wealthy) to maximise emissions reductions as part of a global effort, ASAP

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Nope.

Dementia, just to remind you this debate has progressed for more than a year. Try googling ffs and injury to health.

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So those many highly skilled jobs aren't. Just a few. Roll Eyes

Actually there are many well-paid jobs, for several decades, if governments piss the private sector off and pull their fingers out....NOW.

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Nope. They could go it alone. I mean everyone says it is so cheap. Roll Eyes

...if, as the private sector wants, the public fund the new grid and storage...say $40 trillion.....

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You highlighted the wrong bit.

Sorry to derail your emphasis, there is no technical barrier to establishing millions of PV panels.

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And it doesn't show any proof of concept at scale. Roll Eyes

Er.. if pv=1, 100pv = 100...oh, never mnd.

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Yeah. Remote communities where they bash teachers, health workers etc. Roll Eyes

owing to dysfuncytional communities mired in systemic poverty ie poverty entrenched by the state aka 'human rights' abuse: "poverty is the word form of violence" ( practiced by the state) : Gandhi

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The Green dream LIVES. Grin

You must be having a hard time watching the news lately, even the Italy floods are caused by climate change, the people say.

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Ah yes. "China’s ‘debt-trap diplomacy’ is about to challenge Papua New Guinea — and Australia"

and others. Roll Eyes

Show me ANYTHING produced by the US-led BRI-rival aka B3W...which has disappeard without trace while the Repubs are too busy cutting the US budget, forget investment in the rest of the world

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And the green blob on the path to nut zero. Roll Eyes

The world will be cleaner, greener, with affordable energy for eveyone.

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Nope. Your confirmation bias showed that. Roll Eyes

Nothing to do with all the wrong bits in your paragraph, unless you can show my error in each case.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #547 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:57pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm:

And you have too much in 'assets' to get the full pension

Wrong again, dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm:

Both urgent, unlike in Oz which only has to deal with emissions reduction ASAP (since Oz is already wealthy) to maximise emissions reductions as part of a global effort, ASAP

Urgent, according to one IPCC report is 3 years, not 2035. So according to China not urgent. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm:

Try googling ffs and injury to health.

Then why can't you find any? Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm:

Actually there are many well-paid jobs, for several decades, if governments piss the private sector off and pull their fingers out....NOW.

Rubbish. Just like your MMT that even economists can't agree on its efficacy. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm:

..if, as the private sector wants, the public fund the new grid and storage...say $40 trillion.....

The public doesn't know the full extent of the costs and pitfalls. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm:

Sorry to derail your emphasis, there is no technical barrier to establishing millions of PV panels.

Just the cleaning of them, replacement of them; dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm:

Er.. if pv=1, 100pv = 100...oh, never mnd.

And increased scale causes increased costs, dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm:

owing to dysfuncytional communities mired in systemic poverty ie poverty entrenched by the state aka 'human rights' abuse: "poverty is the word form of violence" ( practiced by the state) : Gandhi

And yet you talk about relatively poor; which is not poverty, dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:13pm:

You must be having a hard time watching the news lately, even the Italy floods are caused by climate change, the people say.

Ah people. The great uneducated "people", dummy. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #548 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm

lee wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:57pm:

......

And you have too much in 'assets' to get the full pension.

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Wrong again, dummy. Roll Eyes

So you are poor, on a part pension..I suggest you see a finacial adviser.

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Urgent, according to one IPCC report is 3 years, not 2035. So according to China not urgent. Dummy. Roll Eyes

not urgent to deniers in the West despite the fact they are rich enough to urgently transition.

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Then why can't you find any? Dummy. Roll Eyes

Already have, archived in this thread. I don't repeat time-wasting exercises for deniers like you.

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Rubbish. Just like your MMT that even economists can't agree on its efficacy. Dummy. Roll Eyes

"Rubbish" is the capacity of your crippled conservative brain. As for MMT, recognition of the need for revolutionary change in economic orthodoxy is rapidly growing around the world (except for blind comfortable ideologues like you - who says he isn't comfortable on part pension; spend some money and you can get the full pension....)

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The public doesn't know the full extent of the costs and pitfalls. Dummy. Roll Eyes

They know it will 'cost' a lot, while foolishly hoping the private sector will fund the transition..

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Just the cleaning of them, replacement of them; dummy. Roll Eyes

No, that's a job for low IQ people like yourself; don't worry you won't be living in poverty, like the unemployed are now.

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...costs...

No, resources which we won't run out of.

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And yet you talk about relatively poor; which is not poverty, dummy. Roll Eyes

You are richer than 600 million people in China.

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Ah people. The great uneducated "people", dummy. Roll Eyes

Inclduding reps of all UN member states, and the IPCC...

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« Last Edit: May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:39pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #549 - May 23^rd, 2023 at 5:23pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

And you have too much in 'assets' to get the full pension.

Nope. There is also the "income" test, which has nothing to do with the asset base. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

So you are poor, on a part pension..I suggest you see a finacial adviser.

Oh. I thought you were the full book on economic stuff. A financial advisor can't help on the income test. dummy.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

not urgent to deniers in the West despite the fact they are rich enough to urgently transition.

It is not urgent to anyone. You can't even point to anything than a blanket "denier" label.Such a dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

Already have, archived in this thread. I don't repeat time-wasting exercises for deniers like you.

Already didn't. Each of your "arguments" got shot down. dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

As for MMT, recognition of the need for revolutionary change in economic orthodoxy is rapidly growing around the world (except for blind comfortable ideologues like you - who says he isn't comfortable on part pension; spend some money and you can get the full pension....)

Except for mainstream economists. Which says a lot about your "knowledge". dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

They know it will 'cost' a lot, while foolishly hoping the private sector will fund the transition..

OOh a lot? How many zeroes in "a lot", dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

No, that's a job for low IQ people like yourself; don't worry you won't be living in poverty, like the unemployed are now.

How noble. I guess you see yourself as one of the upper group, dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

No, resources which we won't run out of.

Which resources would they be? Where is this fabled cornucopia? dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

You are richer than 600 million people in China.

And again nothing to do with poverty. dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:32pm:

Inclduding reps of all UN member states, and the IPCC...

Oh the UN? You mean like Figueres ""This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model, for the first time in human history", Ms Figueres stated at a press conference in Brussels."

Or perhaps the Canadian Maurice Strong who got the UN into the climate business. The bloke who fled to China to escape prosecution. Dummy Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #550 - May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am

lee wrote on May 23^rd, 2023 at 5:23pm:

Oh. I thought you were the full book on economic stuff. A financial advisor can't help on the income test. dummy.

so your income is too large for a full pension, and you are claiming you are poor... greedy, no?.....

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It is not urgent to anyone.

It's urgent to the UN, IPCC, developed and developing countries alike: yet we see a greedy fellow like you not making allowances for the differences in nations' wealth.

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Already didn't. Each of your "arguments" got shot down. dummy. Roll Eyes

Being "shot down" by a greedy, blind, conservative climate/polluting-ff denier is an oxymoron.

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Except for mainstream economists. Which says a lot about your "knowledge". dummy. Roll Eyes

Nah.. mainstreamers are only responding to where their bread is buttered, ie by "research grants" funded by the elite money-managers, not by any true understanding of money.

Listen up : money is created out of nothing.

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OOh a lot? How many zeroes in "a lot", dummy. Roll Eyes

Irrelevant: money is created out of nothing; the real issue is to make sure the money which the government needs to create is matched by the resources it wants to purchase, regardless of how many zeros in that quantity of money.

Keep up this debate, and you will eventually learn about the nature of money/what it is.

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How noble. I guess you see yourself as one of the upper group, dummy. Roll Eyes

"Life isn't fair" - a well-known conservative refrain; but be thankful I'm offering you an above poverty job commensurate with your abilties, something your gruesome mainstreamers won't offer you - the best they can offer is the below-poverty dole.

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Which resources would they be? Where is this fabled cornucopia? dummy. Roll Eyes

All the resources required to transition to a green economy.

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And again nothing to do with poverty. dummy. Roll Eyes

Says the greedy conservative complaining about life on a part pension.

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Oh the UN? You mean like Figueres ""This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model, for the first time in human history", Ms Figueres stated at a press conference in Brussels."

Or perhaps the Canadian Maurice Strong who got the UN into the climate business. The bloke who fled to China to escape prosecution. Dummy Roll Eyes

That UN, plus the UN which all nations are signed up to....

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« Last Edit: May 24^th, 2023 at 3:05pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #551 - May 24^th, 2023 at 10:51pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

so your income is too large for a full pension, and you are claiming you are poor... greedy, no?.....

No petal. Under the income test it starts dropping from $336/fn. You really are a dummy.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

It's urgent to the UN, IPCC, developed and developing countries alike: yet we see a greedy fellow like you not making allowances for the differences in nations' wealth.

And yet the IPCC, UN etc aren't telling China they must drop emissions. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

Being "shot down" by a greedy, blind, conservative climate/polluting-ff denier is an oxymoron.

Being shot down by data. Something which you don't acknowledge. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

Nah.. mainstreamers are only responding to where their bread is buttered, ie by "research grants" funded by the elite money-managers, not by any true understanding of money.

And you KNOW because you were told so, and you BELIEVE. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

Irrelevant: money is created out of nothing; the real issue is to make sure the money which the government needs to create is matched by the resources it wants to purchase, regardless of how many zeros in that quantity of money.

So you don't know how many zeroes in your "lot". Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

"Life isn't fair" - a well-known conservative refrain; but be thankful I'm offering you an above poverty job commensurate with your abilties, something your gruesome mainstreamers won't offer you - the best they can offer is the below-poverty dole.

The only way you can offer is to be one of the "haves". Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

All the resources required to transition to a green economy.

But where are they "all". You don't have any idea of the required resources, but blithely claim they will not "run out". Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

Says the greedy conservative complaining about life on a part pension.

Where exactly have I complained about life on the pension, be specific. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

That UN, plus the UN which all nations are signed up to...

The one that is governed by non-elected representatives. Dummy. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #552 - May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm

lee wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 10:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2023 at 11:52am:

so your income is too large for a full pension, and you are claiming you are poor... greedy, no?.....

No petal. Under the income test it starts dropping from $336/fn. You really are a dummy.

..because your income bars you from the full pension

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And yet the IPCC, UN etc aren't telling China they must drop emissions. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Yes they are, while asking for assistance from rich countries for all developing countries, watch the greedy conservatives howling.

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Being shot down by data. Something which you don't acknowledge. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Stats showing ff-polluted urban air is injurious to health, dummy.

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And you KNOW because you were told so, and you BELIEVE. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Unlike theologians who can't prove the existence of God, smart economists - not beholden to the elite financial crooks controlling mainstream economics - CAN prove the errors of mainstream economics.

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So you don't know how many zeroes in your "lot". Dummy. Roll Eyes

Conservative crippled brain; I explained why the money number doesn't matter, resource mobilization does.

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The only way you can offer is to be one of the "haves". Dummy. Roll Eyes

Poor conservative brain fooled by smart mainstream econimists; currency-issuing governments can be authorized to be among the "haves".

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But where are they "all"? You don't have any idea of the required resources, but blithely claim they will not "run out". Dummy. Roll Eyes

In the earth's crust; I'll get you a job on a ming site - (toilet cleaners always required at a mining camp.

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Where exactly have I complained about life on the pension, be specific. Dummy. Roll Eyes

You reckon 600 million Chinese (receiving less than your income) shouldn't have their income raised ASAP, remember?

[quote]The one that is governed by non-elected representatives. Dummy. Grin

Election is no guarantee of ability...look at the Oz parliament.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #553 - May 25^th, 2023 at 4:35pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

because your income bars you from the full pension

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Guilty, I get more than $400 dollars. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

Yes they are, while asking for assistance from rich countries for all developing countries, watch the greedy conservatives howling.

'No they aren't they are still giving them until 2060 to get to net zero. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

Stats showing ff-polluted urban air is injurious to health, dummy.

Stats don't show anything without a certifiable database, eg autopsies, not made up numbers. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

Unlike theologians who can't prove the existence of God, smart economists - not beholden to the elite financial crooks controlling mainstream economics - CAN prove the errors of mainstream economics.

Can they? Then why haven't they done so? Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

Conservative crippled brain; I explained why the money number doesn't matter, resource mobilization does.

And resources won't "run out", you said. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

Poor conservative brain fooled by smart mainstream econimists; currency-issuing governments can be authorized to be among the "haves".

So you want to be 0one of the "currency-issuing government. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

In the earth's crust; I'll get you a job on a ming site - (toilet cleaners always required at a mining camp.

And you absolutely KNOW this. You really are a dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

You reckon 600 million Chinese (receiving less than your income) shouldn't have their income raised ASAP, remember?

And that has nothing to do with me complaining about my pension. Another case of your poor overworked brain making sch!t up again. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

Election is no guarantee of ability...look at the Oz parliament.

One only has to look at the UN, the EU to see similar dummies to you. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #554 - May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2023 at 4:35pm:

'No they aren't they are still giving them until 2060 to get to net zero. Dummy. Roll Eyes

And you are complaining about that concession for developing countries, while howling about assistance from rich countries re costs of transition - given your flat earth monetary economics; money can come from currency-issuing governents on a debt-free basis, so there really is no "cost" anyway.

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Stats don't show anything without a certifiable database, eg autopsies, not made up numbers. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Stats re illness from ICE and ff pollution in built up areas

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Can they? Then why haven't they done so? Dummy. Roll Eyes

They have; see Keen's articles listed in the MMT thread. eg
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/510#518
#507

But mainstreamers are stuck in their neoclassical 'flat earth' ideology, so it will take some time before the public work it out for themselves (with Keen's help), this lady being representative of a good proportion of the public... priceless

https://twitter.com/i/status/1661548182789328896

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And resources won't "run out", you said. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Not to complete the transition to renewables, even if nuclear energy is required to complete the job, globally.

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So you want to be 0one of the "currency-issuing government. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Crippled brain stuff re use of the word "you"; I can't pay to provide "you" (everyone) with a job, the currency-issuing government can: see the Job Guarantee.

More free education for you, the result of this debate.

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And you absolutely KNOW this. You really are a dummy. Roll Eyes

Addressed above.

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And that has nothing to do with me complaining about my pension. Another case of your poor overworked brain making sch!t up again. Dummy. Roll Eyes

I said China needs to be granted more time to reach net zero, you said "no, China is rich, and I am on a pension".

Dummy.

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One only has to look at the UN, the EU to see similar dummies to you. Roll Eyes

Desperate deflection; democratic elections - via the blind leading the blind - don't select on ability.

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« Last Edit: May 26^th, 2023 at 12:40pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #555 - May 26^th, 2023 at 12:56pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

And you are complaining about that concession for developing countries, while howling about assistance from rich countries re costs of transition - given your flat earth monetary economics; money can come from currency-issuing governents on a debt-free basis, so there really is no "cost" anyway.

So you now agree that the UN is doing NOTHING re China. Thank you Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

Stats re illness from ICE and ff pollution in built up areas

But nothing from autopsies so merely stats made from thin air. Much like your brain. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

They have; see Keen's articles listed in the MMT thread. eg
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/510#518
#507

So he tells how governments "make" money. That doesn't "prove the errors of mainstream economics". Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

Not to complete the transition to renewables, even if nuclear energy is required to complete the job, globally.

So prove it. You make unbelievable claims but can't back them up, minus the throwaway nuclear claim, which is not in dispute, as there is very little nuclear at present. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

Crippled brain stuff re use of the word "you"; I can't pay to provide "you" (everyone) with a job, the currency-issuing government can: see the Job Guarantee.

But you said - "I'll get you a job on a ming (sic) site" and "but be thankful I'm offering you an above poverty job"

As I have said you claim many things and can't back them up. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

Addressed above.

And yet you haven't posted anywhere the tonnes of metals required, let alone the removal of overburden. You really are thick as a b rick. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

I said China needs to be granted more time to reach net zero, you said "no, China is rich". Dummy.

And that has nothing to do with my pension. No complaints. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

Desperate deflection; democratic elections - via the blind leading the blind - don't select on ability.

Exactly right. So that means you want a closed election system. Now we are getting close to your mantra. One World Government for you. Dummy. Roll Eyes

You really are a know nothing who believes whatever he is told by his CHOSEN ones. Dummy. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #556 - May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm

lee wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 12:28pm:

And you are complaining about that concession for developing countries, while howling about assistance from rich countries re costs of transition - given your flat earth monetary economics; money can come from currency-issuing governents on a debt-free basis, so there really is no "cost" anyway.

So you now agree that the UN is doing NOTHING re China. Thank you Dummy. Roll Eyes

Yes I agree, apart from granting them another decade.

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But nothing from autopsies so merely stats made from thin air. Much like your brain. Dummy. Roll Eyes

er...people can be sick while still alive...

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So he tells how governments "make" money. That doesn't "prove the errors of mainstream economics". Dummy. Roll Eyes

He proved it using the Minsky double-entry accounting program, which you didn't read because it takes some to time to study it.

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So prove it. You make unbelievable claims but can't back them up, minus the throwaway nuclear claim, which is not in dispute, as there is very little nuclear at present. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Minus nuclear? China is building 24 new plants at present, while planning to peak emissions from cheaper coal, by 2035.

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But you said - "I'll get you a job on a ming (sic) site" and "but be thankful I'm offering you an above poverty job"

And your poor conservative brain crippled by 'literalism' couldn't see "I'm" in that sentence means the currency-issuing government, since the Job Guarantee is MMT policy.

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And yet you haven't posted anywhere the tonnes of metals required, let alone the removal of overburden. You really are thick as a b rick. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Addressed above. The resources are there, stop stalling.

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GD:

I said China needs to be granted more time to reach net zero, you said "no, China is rich". Dummy.

And that has nothing to do with my pension. No complaints. Dummy. Roll Eyes

You brought up your pension first, have you forgotten why?

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Exactly right. So that means you want a closed election system. Now we are getting close to your mantra. One World Government for you. Dummy. Roll Eyes

er...a one-party meritocracy might prove superior, we will see; but if you are relying on blind-leading-the-blind elections, you deserve what you get.

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iYou really are a know nothing who believes whatever he is told by his CHOSEN ones. Dummy. Grin

Sorry to be rocking your delusional 'sovereign individual'/freedom values' boat. You are in for a rude awakening, if an AGW emergency is real.

And in any case, global pollution resulting from unmanaged profit-seeking free market orthodoxy will catch up with you in the end.

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« Last Edit: May 26^th, 2023 at 1:33pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #557 - May 26^th, 2023 at 3:09pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

Yes I agree, apart from granting them another decade.

To 23045 or 2070? Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

er...people can be sick while still alive...

And get hospitalised. So show me the study of these hospitalisations. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

He proved it using the Minsky double-entry accounting program, which you didn't read because it takes some to time to study it.

And you understand the "Minsky double entry program". What is so special about Minsky, there are many free D-E programs. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

Minus nuclear? China is building 24 new plants at present, while planning to peak emissions from cheaper coal, by 2035.

Are yes. Plamns. Something that can change on a whim. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

And your poor conservative brain crippled by 'literalism' couldn't see "I'm" in that sentence means the currency-issuing government, since the Job Guarantee is MMT policy.

Your words, own them. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

Addressed above. The resources are there, stop stalling.

Nope. That is merely your claim. Back it up. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

You brought up your pension first, have you forgotten why?

Because as I said you have no clue as to my circumstances. And I showed you have nothing. You applied the wrong test, couldn't work out the income test. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

er...a one-party meritocracy might prove superior, we will see; but if you are relying on blind-leading-the-blind elections, you deserve what you get.

Like China's meritocracy, where women can't reach the top echelon. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

And in any case, global pollution resulting from unmanaged profit-seeking free market orthodoxy will catch up with you in the end.

And yet global pollution has declined since the 90's. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #558 - May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm

lee wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 3:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

Yes I agree, apart from granting them another decade.

To 23045 or 2070? Dummy. Roll Eyes

2060 should do it.

Quote:

And get hospitalised. So show me the study of these hospitalisations. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Google?

Quote:

And you understand the "Minsky double entry program". What is so special about Minsky, there are many free D-E programs. Dummy. Roll Eyes

The point is, Keen has proved his case, as you would know if you were capable of reading it.

Quote:

Are yes. Plamns. Something that can change on a whim. Dummy. Roll Eyes

The world is transitioning, plans and no plans.... Suck it up.

Quote:

Your words, own them. Dummy. Roll Eyes

I do own them; the problem is your crippled literalist brain.

Quote:

Nope. That is merely your claim. Back it up. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Get back to me in 2030 to see how resource mobilzation is progressing.

Quote:

Because as I said you have no clue as to my circumstances.

Have you forgotten WHY we were discussing your circumstances? Hint: you first raised it, obviously, to make a point which you failed to prove. ....

Quote:

Like China's meritocracy, where women can't reach the top echelon. Dummy. Roll Eyes

"Sun Chunlan (Chinese: 孙春兰; born 24 May 1950) is a retired Chinese politician. She served as the second-ranked Vice Premier of the People's Republic of China and the highest-ranking incumbent female government official until March 2023."

btw guess what democracy still hasn't had a female head of state....

Quote:

And yet global pollution has declined since the 90's. Dummy. Roll Eyes

https://www.unep.org/interactive/air-pollution-note/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwjryjBhD0ARIsA...

"Around four million people died in 2019 from exposure to fine particulate outdoor air pollution, with the highest death rates occurring in East Asia and Central Europe."

https://www.eea.europa.eu/soer/2015/global/pollution#:~:text=Globally%2C%20level...

European Environment Agency.
Increasing environmental pollution

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #559 - May 26^th, 2023 at 5:18pm

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/markets/energy-majors-go-slow-on-green-transitio...

Since 2021 the International Energy Agency (IEA) has called for a stop to new oil projects, to ensure the world meets the goal of keeping global temperatures to 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels.

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1bHUs3.img?w=768&h=511...

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #560 - May 26^th, 2023 at 6:10pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

Google?

They don't have the study. Can you link it? Dummy. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

The point is, Keen has proved his case, as you would know if you were capable of reading it.

Double entry programs, even free ones like Minsky, don't prove anything. If you knew anything about basic accounting, you would know that. So now we know you don't know anything about accounting, but you still believe. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

The world is transitioning, plans and no plans..

Except Germany and the EU walking back. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

I do own them; the problem is your crippled literalist brain.

Nope. It must be your poor understanding of English, that you can't write comprehensively. Dummy Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

Get back to me in 2030 to see how resource mobilzation is progressing.

So you can't back it up. Pages of crap from you that you can't back up. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

Have you forgotten WHY we were discussing your circumstances? Hint: you first raised it, obviously, to make a point which you failed to prove.

It follows this - "You are richer than 600 million people in China."

So tell me how rich is the richest of the 600 million. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

Sun Chunlan (Chinese: 孙春兰; born 24 May 1950) is a retired Chinese politician. She served as the second-ranked Vice Premier of the People's Republic of China and the highest-ranking incumbent female government official until March 2023."

Yes Second Ranked. Never got past top 25.

"Top China Covid Fighter Is Woman Who Hit Party's Glass Ceiling "

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/sun-chunlan-top-china-covid-fighter-is-woman-71-...

You do understand "Glass Ceiling"? Dummy. Roll Eyes

"Conversely, global brightening had contributed to the acceleration of global warming which began in the 1990s.[1][14]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming

Or all of it. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

btw guess what democracy still hasn't had a female head of state....

Australia? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

https://www.unep.org/interactive/air-pollution-note/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwjryjBhD0ARIsA...

The UN? PM2.5? Grin

Dummy.

From your ref -

"Residential pollution, mostly from cooking and heating using biomass, and generating electricity from fossil fuels for our homes, and transport, are the main human-made sources of fine particles globally. Windblown dust is also a major source in portions of Africa and West Asia that are close to deserts."

Nothing there about fossil fuel pollution. You really do like statistical studies. Grin

Dummy.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 4:45pm:

https://www.eea.europa.eu/soer/2015/global/pollution#:~:text=Globally%2C%20level...

European Environment Agency.

"For example, despite a fall in air pollutant emissions there has not been an equivalent improvement in air quality across Europe, partly as a result of the transboundary transport of air pollutants."

Wow. Did they really say that? Dummy.

They want to cut fertiliser use. See how well that went in Sri Lanka and ongoing in the Netherlands. Dummy.

And they are still using the RCP's. Notably the discredited, by the IPCC even, of RCP8.5. You really are a dummy. Roll Eyes

"The high-end scenarios RCP8.5 or SSP5-8.5 have recently been argued
to be implausible to unfold (e.g., Hausfather and Peters, 2020; see
Chapter 3 of the AR6 WGIII)."

WG1 4.2.2

"“The IPCC concedes what many have contended all along by admitting ‘the likelihood of high emissions scenarios such as RCP8.5 . . . is considered low.’ Indeed, emissions in 2050 in the International Energy Agency’s current and stated policies scenarios are less than half the quantities projected by RCP8.5. The IPCC also tacitly acknowledges RCP8.5 no longer qualifies as a ‘no policy’ scenario since the vast majority of countries have climate policies.

“And yet, IPCC references RCP8.5 (and an equivalent emission scenario called SSP5-8.5) 1,359 times–more often than any other scenario. Maybe that’s why the IPCC declines to assess the ‘feasibility or likelihood’ of ‘individual scenarios’—otherwise RCP8.5 would be banished from the report!"

https://cei.org/news_releases/ipcc-report-relies-on-rcp-8-5-despite-determining-...

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 5:18pm:

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1bHUs3
.img?w=768&h=511...

Oh dear. Tell us how people would get on if fossil fuels were cut now. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: May 26^th, 2023 at 6:22pm by lee »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #561 - May 26^th, 2023 at 9:32pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant)

Patrick Albert Moore (born June 15, 1947) is a Canadian industry consultant, former activist, and past president of Greenpeace Canada.

Moore has also denied the consensus of the scientific community on climate change, for example by claiming that increased carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere is beneficial, that there is no proof that anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions are responsible for global warming, and that even if true, increased temperature would be beneficial to life on Earth.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 51474 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #562 - May 26^th, 2023 at 10:03pm Moore falsely claims to be a cofounder of Greenpeace. He also said that RoundUp is safe to drink but ran out of a radio station when offered some. Oh yeah, you can believe him, if you are an idiot.
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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #563 - May 26^th, 2023 at 10:14pm Jovial Monk wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 10:03pm: Moore falsely claims to be a cofounder of Greenpeace. He also said that RoundUp is safe to drink but ran out of a radio station when offered some. Oh yeah, you can believe him, if you are an idiot.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #564 - May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm

lee wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 6:10pm:

They don't have the study. Can you link it? Dummy. Grin

Of course they do; archived in this thread, which you reject.

Quote:

Double entry programs, even free ones like Minsky, don't prove anything. If you knew anything about basic accounting, you would know that. So now we know you don't know anything about accounting, but you still believe. Dummy. Roll Eyes

They prove treasury can in effect issue debt free money, which is the important point by which governments can be instituted to govern for the benefit of all.

Quote:

Except Germany and the EU walking back. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Because men, still entranced by your blind 'freedom values' ideology, still resort to war. Blind fools....
So Germany and the EU lost it's cheap Russian gas supply.

Quote:

Nope. It must be your poor understanding of English, that you can't write comprehensively. Dummy Roll Eyes

Must be? Wrong again; but don't worry, a well-run govt, will provide you with an above poverty job, if you are unable to compete in the profit-seeking private sector.

Quote:

So you can't back it up. Pages of crap from you that you can't back up. Dummy. Roll Eyes

I see Cannon-Brookes is proceeding with his plan to build the biggest solar farm in the world....resources no problem.

Quote:

It follows this - "You are richer than 600 million people in China."

That wasn't the start - obviously I referred to your wealth for a reason. Go furhther back to remind yourself why.

Quote:

So tell me how rich is the richest of the 600 million. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Irrelevant, every nation has a billionaire(s), it's the poorest 600 million in China who urgently need an increase in living standards, with access to cheap energy during the transition to renewbles.

Quote:

You do understand "Glass Ceiling"? Dummy. Roll Eyes

Yes, Gillard smashed it in Oz, no woman has done so in the US.

Quote:

Nothing there about fossil fuel pollution. You really do like statistical studies. Grin

"....generating electricity from fossil fuels for our homes" - oh dear....

Quote:

Wow. Did they really say that? Dummy.

They want to cut fertiliser use. See how well that went in Sri Lanka and ongoing in the Netherlands. Dummy.

And they are still using the RCP's. Notably the discredited, by the IPCC even, of RCP8.5. You really are a dummy. Roll Eyes

according to you. btw,Sustainable agriculture requires elimination of artificial fertilizers

Quote:

The IPCC also tacitly acknowledges RCP8.5 no longer qualifies as a ‘no policy’ scenario since the vast majority of countries have climate policies.

Which are not being inplemented in a timely manner because of denier 'freedom values' ideologues like you.

Quote:

“And yet, IPCC references RCP8.5 (and an equivalent emission scenario called SSP5-8.5) 1,359 times–more often than any other scenario. Maybe that’s why the IPCC declines to assess the ‘feasibility or likelihood’ of ‘individual scenarios’—otherwise RCP8.5 would be banished from the report!"

https://cei.org/news_releases/ipcc-report-relies-on-rcp-8-5-despite-determining-...

Look at the deniers in full flight; yet sun and wind are free.

Quote:

Oh dear. Tell us how people would get on if fossil fuels were cut now. Dummy. Roll Eyes

People could have progressivly cheaper energy if treasuries and central banks - with their unlimited money-issuing capacity - bought the global fossil industry and funded the transition to sun and wind power ASAP.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #565 - May 27^th, 2023 at 1:16pm Jovial Monk wrote on May 26^th, 2023 at 10:03pm: Moore falsely claims to be a cofounder of Greenpeace. He was. The Australian arm of Greenpeace even had that on their website a few years ago, before removing it.
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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #566 - May 27^th, 2023 at 1:48pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Of course they do; archived in this thread, which you reject.

I reject it because it doesn't say what you say it does. Nothing more nothing less. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

They prove treasury can in effect issue debt free money, which is the important point by which governments can be instituted to govern for the benefit of all.

Double entry bookkeeping doesn't prove anything. It relies on the information that you put in. It has no deterministic abilities. If you put Garbage In you get Garbage Out. Dummy. Roll Eyes

All this from an economic know-it-all, who doesn't understand basic bookkeeping. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Because men, still entranced by your blind 'freedom values' ideology, still resort to war.

So tell us where the EU and Germany are making war. Dummy Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

So Germany and the EU lost it's cheap Russian gas supply.

They lost their cheap Russian Gas supply because they wouldn't pay in roubles. You really need to comprehend what is in the news. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Wrong again; but don't worry, a well-run govt, will provide you with an above poverty job, if you are unable to compete in the profit-seeking private sector.

And nothing to do with pensions or emissions. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

I see Cannon-Brookes is proceeding with his plan to build the biggest solar farm in the world....resources no problem.

He is free to create his own green impossible dream. But I thought you didn't want greedy people having ownership. And you haven't shown resources are not a problem. Just a naive belief that they are all there for the whole globe. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

That wasn't the start - obviously I referred to your wealth for a reason.

So now resile from that remark. Typical. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Irrelevant, every nation has a billionaire(s), it's the poorest 600 million in China who urgently need an increase in living standards, with access to cheap energy during the transition to renewbles.

But you were the one saying I was richer than them. Just another throwaway line from a throwaway wannabe. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Yes, Gillard smashed it in Oz, no woman has done so in the US.

And the US is not China. But in the US they have a female V-P. Second place out of two places. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

according to you. btw,Sustainable agriculture requires elimination of artificial fertilizers

No according to the IPCC. I even gave you the reference. Dummy.

As to artificial fertilisers you want to go back to night-carts and wholly natural fertilisers. Else agricultural output will drop. That will cause more than human misery but will cause wholesale death. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Which are not being implemented in a timely manner because of denier 'freedom values' ideologues like you.

So you don't want to discuss RCP8.5 which you said was merely my interpretation. Timely manner? Remember the German Green Dream? Australia has notionally about 30% renewables. That is timely. Dummy. Roll Eyes

"In 2021, 29% of Australia’s total electricity generation was from renewable energy sources, including solar (12%), wind (10%) and hydro (6%)."

https://www.energy.gov.au/data/renewables

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Look at the deniers in full flight; yet sun and wind are free.

Oh dear. Falling back to his denier crap. Wind and sun are free. They also aren't dependable. Think cyclones. Why? Reasons include cloud cover and excess winds. Solar panels don't work well under clouds, and wind turbines need to be shuttered so as not to rip blades off. And that is only one weather event. Dummy.

But please feel free to expound on what is being denied. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

People could have progressivly cheaper energy if treasuries and central banks - with their unlimited money-issuing capacity - bought the global fossil industry and funded the transition to sun and wind power ASAP.

But you were just paying homage to Cannon-Brookes, a greedy capitalist. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Edit: BTW did you read that UN report? Comprehend it?

"In 2021, in response to increases in quality and quantity of evidence of air pollution impacts, the WHO updated the PM2.5 annual mean air quality guideline to 5µg/m3, which represents clean air as few impacts have been observed below these levels."

Annual level 5µg of PM2.5. What was the level of one cigarette? 7,000-10,000µg. Multiplied by a pack a day by 365. And pm2.5 is supposed to be dangerous.

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« Last Edit: May 27^th, 2023 at 2:03pm by lee »

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #567 - May 27^th, 2023 at 2:22pm
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #568 - May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm

lee wrote on May 27^th, 2023 at 1:48pm:

I reject it because it doesn't say what you say it does. Nothing more nothing less. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Wrong; they say (correctly) ffs pollute and poison the atmosphere

Quote:

Double entry bookkeeping doesn't prove anything. It relies on the information that you put in. It has no deterministic abilities. If you put Garbage In you get Garbage Out. Dummy. Roll Eyes

regardless of Keen's method, government - the originator of fiat money - CAN be authourized to issue debt-free money to fund public expenditure, if the required resources are available for purchase in the nation's currncy. Try engaging your brain.

Quote:

So tell us where the EU and Germany are making war. Dummy Roll Eyes

YOU are complicit in the current war, as a consequence of your blind, conservative individual national sovereighty ideology (which is why the UNSC veto was demanded by the US and USSR in 1946)..

Quote:

They lost their cheap Russian Gas supply because they wouldn't pay in roubles. You really need to comprehend what is in the news. Dummy. Roll Eyes

...because of US-led NATO sanctions; see how inadequate the conservative brain is?

Quote:

And nothing to do with pensions or emissions. Dummy. Roll Eyes

You brouht up your pension; I exlained why China needs more time than a rich country like Oz.

Quote:

He is free to create his own green impossible dream.

Certainly greedy conservatives only dream about maximising their own wealth; as to what is "impossible", keep posted.

Quote:

But I thought you didn't want greedy people having ownership.

I don't; but if visionaries like C-B can loosen th wallets of greedy private investors, all strength to him.

Quote:

And you haven't shown resources are not a problem.

I'm with C-B....

Quote:

But you were the one saying I was richer than them.

You ARE richer than c. 600 million Chinese, if you are receiving a part pension in Oz.

Quote:

And the US is not China.

Crippled conserative brain; you said the glass ceiling exists for women in China, forgetting the same applies to the US.

Quote:

No according to the IPCC. I even gave you the reference. Dummy.

The IPCC wants governements to exit ffs ASAP.

Quote:

As to artificial fertilisers you want to go back to night-carts and wholly natural fertilisers. Else agricultural output will drop. That will cause more than human misery but will cause wholesale death. Dummy. Roll Eyes

no, rather introduce organic processes for rebuilding soil re-vitalization and fertility status.

Quote:

So you don't want to discuss RCP8.5 which you said was merely my interpretation. Timely manner? Remember the German Green Dream? Australia has notionally about 30% renewables. That is timely. Dummy. Roll Eyes

No I'm not interested in 8.5, I want clean healthy air and cheap electricity for all.

Quote:

Oh dear. Falling back to his denier crap.

Dear..it ain't "denier crap", it's very much consertiave ideilogy, listen to Dutton and Co in parliament, which is why they will remain in oppostion for a decade......
Quote:

Wind and sun are free. They also aren't dependable.

They are with the necessary storage; sun and wind are ALWAYS happening somewhere on the globe.

Quote:

And that is only one weather event. Dummy.

Irrelevant, see above.

Quote:

But please feel free to expound on what is being denied. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Denied by you?

1. ffs poisoning the atmosphere

2. price gouging by greedy private ff cartels.

3. the chance of catastrophic AGW caused by ff emissions, as surmied by the IPCC.

Quote:

But you were just paying homage to Cannon-Brookes, a greedy capitalist. Dummy. Roll Eyes

already ddressed above: see how inadequate the blind self-interested conservative brain is...again.

Note: C-B is not "greedy" but visionary, though he also successfully plays in the capitalist system (perhaps like Dick Smith who also has a social conscience, unlike you.)

Quote:

Edit: BTW did you read that UN report? Comprehend it?

The reports noting severe consequences for health, from ff pollution, are the ones grabbing my attention.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #569 - May 28^th, 2023 at 3:48pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Wrong; they say (correctly) ffs pollute and poison the atmosphere

They don't say anything about deaths, which was your claim. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

regardless of Keen's method, government - the originator of fiat money - CAN be authourized to issue debt-free money to fund public expenditure, if the required resources are available for purchase in the nation's currncy.

So you agree Keen's methodology didn't prove anything. Thanks for that. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

YOU are complicit in the current war, as a consequence of your blind, conservative individual national sovereighty ideology (which is why the UNSC veto was demanded by the US and USSR in 1946)..

Nope. Nothing to do with me. And you didn't show the EU and Germany at war. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

.because of US-led NATO sanctions; see how inadequate the conservative brain is?

Nope. The Russians wanted to be paid in roubles. The EU declined. Nothing to do with sanctions. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

You brouht up your pension; I exlained why China needs more time than a rich country like Oz.

You were the one said I was richer than 600 million Chinese, and couldn't back it up. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Certainly greedy conservatives only dream about maximising their own wealth; as to what is "impossible", keep posted.

So you agree Cannon-Brookes is a filthy rich greedy capitalist. Dummy. Roll Eyes

BTW read the technical responses to the green hydrogen debate at the Conversation. You might actually learn something. Dummy. Roll Eyes

https://theconversation.com/picture-this-green-hydrogen-plants-next-to-green-ste...

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

I don't; but if visionaries like C-B can loosen th wallets of greedy private investors, all strength to him.

So if the purpose is green they are visionaries else greedy capitalists. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

I'm with C-B....

But you are a Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

ou ARE richer than c. 600 million Chinese, if you are receiving a part pension in Oz.

And yet you can't show it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

rippled conserative brain; you said the glass ceiling exists for women in China, forgetting the same applies to the US.

The glass ceiling in the US being broken is only 1 death away. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

The IPCC wants governements to exit ffs ASAP.

And that says nothing about them saying RCP8.5 is "implausible". Something that you said "according to you". Now you concede that they did say it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

no, rather introduce organic processes for rebuilding soil re-vitalization and fertility status.

Dung is organic. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

No I'm not interested in 8.5, I want clean healthy air and cheap electricity for all.

So you are not interested in science; it will simply happen. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Dear..it ain't "denier crap", it's very much consertiave ideilogy, listen to Dutton and Co in parliament, which is why they will remain in oppostion for a decade......

You quoted a study of the IPCC conclusions and called them "deniers". Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

They are with the necessary storage; sun and wind are ALWAYS happening somewhere on the globe.

And not necessarily where it is required. Dummy.

Ah ywes, The "necessary storage", such a lovely phrase with absolutely no physical meaning. Because physics is beyond you. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Irrelevant, see above.

Nope. That's just your delusional hope. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Denied by you?

1. ffs poisoning the atmosphere

Nope. OI never said that. I did say your studies didn't show physical deaths, merely "statistics" made out of thin air. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

2. price gouging by greedy private ff cartels.

I have said absolutely nothing about pricing, liar. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

3. the chance of catastrophic AGW caused by ff emissions, as surmied by the IPCC.

There is a very remote chance of catastrophic AGW. However, they haven't occurred in previous interglacials, they haven't occurred in warmer era's of this interglacial. But you hope for it to happen is not proof it will happen. Dummy. Roll Eyes

tbc

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« Last Edit: May 28^th, 2023 at 3:54pm by lee »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #570 - May 28^th, 2023 at 3:50pm

cont.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Note: C-B is not "greedy" but visionary, though he also successfully plays in the capitalist system (perhaps like Dick Smith who also has a social conscience, unlike you.)

Answered above. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 2:49pm:

The reports noting severe consequences for health, from ff pollution, are the ones grabbing my attention.

Yes. All due to PM2.5 which I showed is absolute nonsense. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #571 - May 28^th, 2023 at 4:50pm

lee wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 3:48pm:

They don't say anything about deaths, which was your claim. Dummy. Roll Eyes

er... (lung) illness is often incapacitating, and likely to result in lower life expectancy.

Quote:

So you agree Keen's methodology didn't prove anything. Thanks for that. Dummy. Roll Eyes

No, I agree you didn't understand Keen's methodology, ...and don't have the brains to see that fiat-currency issuing governments can be authorized to issue debt free money to purchase the necessary resources to implement social policiies, if those resources are available for purchase in the nation's own currency.

Quote:

Nope. Nothing to do with me. And you didn't show the EU and Germany at war. Dummy. Roll Eyes

The blind man denying complicity in war when his ideology demands war as last resort, in order to avoid submission to (international) law.

Quote:

Nope. The Russians wanted to be paid in roubles. The EU declined. Nothing to do with sanctions. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Blind ideology stuff; NATO refused Russia access to dollar denominated trade, following US-led sanctions.

Quote:

You were the one said I was richer than 600 million Chinese, and couldn't back it up. Dummy. Roll Eyes

You said y0u are on $200 per week which means you have other income/assets, (otherwise you would be on the full pension c.$400 per week). GDP per capita in China - including the middle class and billionaires - is c.250 per week, BUT: (quick google)

"Last year, the bottom 40 per cent of Chinese households ranked by income, totalling more than 600 million people, had a per capita disposable income of 11,485 yuan (US$1,621)"

Quote:

So you agree Cannon-Brookes is a filthy rich greedy capitalist. Dummy. Roll Eyes

No, I distinquished between greedy conservative ideologues like you, and socially-minded capitalists like C-B. .

Quote:

So if the purpose is green they are visionaries else greedy capitalists. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Now you are catching on; if 'captains of industry' were socially minded, the world would already be Green.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #572 - May 28^th, 2023 at 5:15pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

er... (lung) illness is incapacating, and likely to result in lower life expectancy.

And yet the cities with high particulate emissions are also those with a longer life expectancy. Shanghai etc which has a higher life expectancy than American states. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

o, I agree you didn't understand Keen's methodology,

You were the one quoted the Minsky D-E bookkeeping. I merely pointed out that it is GIGO. That is how bad companies fiddle the books and get away with it, sometimes for years. So you don't understand. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

The blind man deying complicity in war when his ideology demands war as last resort, in order to avoid submission to (international) law.

More trivial rhetoric for someone who has lost the argument. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

Blind ideology stuff; NATO refused Russia access to dollar denominated trade, following US-led sanctions.

Rubbish. The contracts were in Euros or dollars. Russia wanted them in rubles.

If you want to claim different cite your source. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

you said yiu are on $200 per week which means you have other income/assets, (otherwise you would be on the full pension c.$400 per week). GDP per capita in China - including the middle class and billionaires is c.250 per week, BUT: (quick google)

"Last year, the bottom 40 per cent of Chinese households ranked by income, totalling more than 600 million people, had a per capita disposable income of 11,485 yuan (US$1,621)"

Nowhere have I said I was on $200 per week. Another lie from a serial liar.

Poor fool. What you have to look at is what the cost of goods is in each jurisdiction. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

No, I distinquished between greedy conservative ideologues like you, and socially-minded capitalists like C-B. .

Compete BS. Why do you need to lie if your arguments are so good? Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 4:50pm:

Now you are catching on; if captains of industry were socially minded, the world would already be Green.

I am glad you agree, the difference is in your interpretation. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #573 - May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am

lee wrote on May 28^th, 2023 at 5:15pm:

And yet the cities with high particulate emissions are also those with a longer life expectancy. Shanghai etc which has a higher life expectancy than American states. Dummy. Roll Eyes

sheer nonsense, other factors re longevty are involved for different countries.

Quote:

You were the one quoted the Minsky D-E bookkeeping. I merely pointed out that it is GIGO. That is how bad companies fiddle the books and get away with it, sometimes for years. So you don't understand. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Sheer nonsense again; Keen merely proved that government debt is the private sector's surplus, which is the original MMT insight, long before Keen proved it with D-E accounting.

Quote:

More trivial rhetoric for someone who has lost the argument. Dummy. Roll Eyes

No, it's basic reason: to eradicate the scourge of war - the ultimate insanity in the age of MAD - men have to submit to rule of law. I can hear your blind 'individual sovereignty'/'freedom values' brain screaming from here...

Quote:

Rubbish. The contracts were in Euros or dollars. Russia wanted them in rubles.

Wow, low IQ as well as blind ideology; NATO cut Russia off from the global payments system, aka sanctions.

Quote:

Nowhere have I said I was on $200 per week. Another lie from a serial liar.

Gosh, dementia, as well as low IQ and blind ideology. You said your part pension was about half the full pension, because of the income test.

Quote:

Compete BS. Why do you need to lie if your arguments are so good? Dummy. Roll Eyes

Unfortunately for you, the debate re C-B is recorded, so you can't get away with your lies in lieu of debate; your low IQ, dementia and blind ideology not-withstanding.

Quote:

I am glad you agree, the difference is in your interpretation. Dummy. Roll Eyes

But of course most captains of industry are NOT socially minded, unlike the visionary C-B who wants to finance the green transition, while blind fools with your your evil ideology are happy to cook and pollute the planet while maximising their profits from filthy fossils.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #574 - May 29^th, 2023 at 1:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

sheer nonsense, other factors re longevty are involved for different countries.

But if PM2.5 is such a killer, Life expectancy should be lower in places of higher concentrations. You are the one saying PM2.45 is a kjiller, despite evidence to the contrary. eg smokers. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

Sheer nonsense again; Keen merely proved that government debt is the private sector's surplus, which is the original MMT insight, long before Keen proved it with D-E accounting.

Keen can't prove anything with any accounting package. It relies on what is input. You really are an economic dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

No, it's basic reason: to eradicate the scourge of war - the ultimate insanity in the age of MAD - men have to submit to rule of law.

And yet you have shown no proof that it will. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

I can hear your blind 'individual sovereignty'/'freedom values' brain screaming from here...

Another answer that says you just KNOW things. Even when you don't. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

Wow, low IQ as well as blind ideology; NATO cut Russia off from the global payments system, aka sanctions.

Nope. They didn't. You could of course prove yourself right. Dummy. Roll Eyes

" US, UK, Europe and Canada to block Swift access for some Russian banks."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/26/us-uk-europe-and-canada-to-block-r...

From the garudian so it must be true.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

Gosh, dementia, as well as low IQ and blind ideology. You said your part pension was about half the full pension, because of the income test.

Nope. Again you have comprehension issues. I merely quoted Centerelink, saying payments started reducing after $290, which was for couples BTW. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

Unfortunately for you, the debate re C-B is recorded, so you can't get away with your lies in lieu of debate; your low IQ, dementia and blind ideology not-withstanding.

What lies petal. You continue to make the claim, but never prove them. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

But of course most captains of industry are NOT socially minded, unlike the visionary C-B who wants to finance the green transition, while blind fools with your your evil ideology are happy to cook and pollute the planet while maximising their profits from filthy fossils.

C-B is such a visionary he is giving away for free? For cost?

BTW- What is the temperature of the cooked planet? Dummy. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #575 - Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 4:43pm https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techandscience/incoming-un-climate-agency-chief-f... Incoming UN climate agency chief forecasts wind of change
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #576 - Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:13pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 4:43pm: Incoming UN climate agency chief forecasts wind of change Wow. The WMO. Just another UN alarmist group. We know you don't do science. She is not a climate scientist.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #577 - Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm

lee wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 1:50pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 29^th, 2023 at 11:17am:

sheer nonsense, other factors re longevty are involved for different countries.

But if PM2.5 is such a killer,

filthy ffs are a killer, see google.

Quote:

Keen can't prove anything with any accounting package. It relies on what is input. You really are an economic dummy. Roll Eyes

still, Keen's Minsky exercise (in which you won't be able to identify a problem) backs up earlier MMT monetary findings, namely:

"Fiat creates money for the non-bank private sector; interest on bonds creates money for the banking sector; and the turnover of money creates GDP. Far from the servicing of government debt being a burden on future generations, as Neoclassical economists claim, the payment of interest on government bonds finances the banking sector while the excess of government spending over taxation creates money and positive equity for the non-bank private sector.

Quote:

And yet you have shown no proof that it will. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Er....nations can't go to war against a UNSC upholding the law, with 99% of the world's military force, other than if they want to 'commit suicide by cop' - which is often the final resort of criminals.

Quote:

Another answer that says you just KNOW things. Even when you don't. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Reason, as opposed to blind, self-interested instinct says...oh never mind

Quote:

Nope. They didn't. You could of course prove yourself right. Dummy. Roll Eyes

quick google

The SWIFT ban against some Russian banks is one of the 2022 sanctions against Russia imposed by the European Union and other western countries, aimed at weakening the country's economy to end its invasion of Ukraine by hindering Russian access to the SWIFT financial transaction processing system.

..only ONE of the sanctions, in particular to limit use of the ruble internationally; google the others yourself.

Quote:

From the garudian so it must be true.

says the dementing, crippled-brain, blind, greedy instinct-driven conservative. I'll go with Guardian....

Quote:

the part-pension...

Irrelevant, you are dementing; 600 million Chinese are poorer than you.

Quote:

What lies petal. You continue to make the claim, but never prove them. Dummy. Roll Eyes

You stand exposed as a dementing, crippled brain fool; as this entire thread proves, continuing even in your last post.

Quote:

C-B is such a visionary he is giving away for free? For cost?

I reckon you are fraud-diver (aka "freediver").... ask a non sequitur question.

Quote:

BTW- What is the temperature of the cooked planet? Dummy. Roll Eyes

above the postulated 1.5C over preindustrial levels.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #578 - Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 6:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

filthy ffs are a killer, see google.

Nope. Your claim you to provide proof. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

still, Keen's Minsky exercise (in which you won't be able to identify a problem) backs up earlier MMT monetary findings, namely:

Poor dummy. The Minsky exercise merely shows he can manipulate "data". Nothing more nothing less. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

Er....nations can't go to war against a UNSC upholding the law, with 99% of the world's military force, other than if they want to 'commit suicide by cop' - which is often the final resort of criminals.

You mean like Iran, Iraq, the Sudan, Israel? Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

Reason, as opposed to blind, self-interested instinct says...

The person who doesn't know science , engineering or even basic accounting, just knows stuff. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

quick google

The SWIFT ban against some Russian banks is one of the 2022 sanctions against Russia imposed by the European Union and other western countries, aimed at weakening the country's economy to end its invasion of Ukraine by hindering Russian access to the SWIFT financial transaction processing system.

You don't comprehend at all, do you? Dummy. Roll Eyes

.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

I'll go with Guardian....

And they said"SOME Russian banks". Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

Irrelevant, you are dementing; 600 million Chinese are poorer than you.

And yet you can't show it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

You stand exposed as a dementing, crippled brain fool; as this entire thread proves, continuing even in your last post.

Poor petal. Your continued lies don't bode well for you. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

I reckon you are fraud-diver (aka "freediver").... ask a non sequitur question.

So he is charging, he is making money. Filthy capitalist. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 5:22pm:

above the postulated 1.5C over preindustrial levels.

So seeing as we have been over 1.5C over pre-industrial before and nothing bad happened, where does that leave your pitiful whines? Dummy. Roll Eyes

But seeing it was an economist who preached over 2C but nothing was happening fast enough, so they dropped it to 1.5C and there is no data showing this apocalypse, only the sheeple are panicking.

"More in Common interviewed more than 26,000 adults on their thoughts about climate change across the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Italy, Poland and Spain.

The study found that on average, older people were more likely to believe in human-driven climate change.

While 63 per cent of 18 to 29-year-olds believed that climate change is “real and caused by human action”, the figure was 66 per cent for 30 to 54-year-olds and 71 per cent for those aged 55 and over.

Among 18 to 29-year-olds, 22 per cent believed that climate change is “part of the earth’s natural cycle and human action is not to blame”, while 4 per cent thought it is “not happening”. "

https://inews.co.uk/news/environment/young-europeans-dont-believe-climate-change...

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #579 - Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 7:23pm Meanwhile back in 2018 St Greta proclaimed - "On June 21, 2018 United Nations spokesperson Greta Thunberg said “climate change will wipe out all of humanity unless we stop using fossil fuels over the next five years.” Only 18 days to go. We're DOOMED, I tell you, doomed.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #580 - Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am

lee wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2023 at 6:17pm:

Nope. Your claim you to provide proof. Roll Eyes

"proof" to a blind greedy conservative ideolgue looking after his own financial interests above all else is moot.

Quote:

Poor dummy. The Minsky exercise merely shows he can manipulate "data". Nothing more nothing less. Roll Eyes

Note you can't address the reality that the government's deficit is the private sector's surplus. The yanks might wake up to it eventually, as they continue kicking the 'deficit ceiling' receptible down the road, to avoid the economic collapse which would follow ill-informed attempts to eradicate the government's debt.

Quote:

You mean like Iran, Iraq, the Sudan, Israel? Dummy. Roll Eyes

No I mean your blind evil ideology which claims self-interest as the basis of law, ruling out effective international law.

Quote:

The person who doesn't know science , engineering or even basic accounting, just knows stuff. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Certainly the greedy blind ideologue can't "know" anthing worth while - hence the ongoing endless wars and entrenched poverty marring our world, when neither are necessary to advance civilization.

Quote:

And they said"SOME Russian banks". Dummy. Roll Eyes

being one of many sanctions imposed on Russia.

Quote:

And yet you can't show it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Certainly China has its sights set higher than your miserable standards.

Quote:

Poor petal. Your continued lies don't bode well for you. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Exposing your blind, greedy, 'individual sovereignty' ideology responsible for the endless wars and entrenched poverty in our world is my purpose here.

Quote:

So he is charging, he is making money. Filthy capitalist. Dummy. Roll Eyes

No, he is a visionary capitalist; your FITH brain can't consider the distinction.

Quote:

So seeing as we have been over 1.5C over pre-industrial before and nothing bad happened, where does that leave your pitiful whines? Dummy. Roll Eyes

"nothing bad happened"? In fact whole civilizations have collapsed in the past.

Quote:

The study found that on average, older people were more likely to believe in human-driven climate change.

While 63 per cent of 18 to 29-year-olds believed that climate change is “real and caused by human action”, the figure was 66 per cent for 30 to 54-year-olds and 71 per cent for those aged 55 and over.

You showing people think AGW climate change is real...thanks.

Quote:

Among 18 to 29-year-olds, 22 per cent believed that climate change is “part of the earth’s natural cycle and human action is not to blame”, while 4 per cent thought it is “not happening”. "

Yes, a small minority - no doubt young, conservative, FITHs as usual.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #581 - Jun 4^th, 2023 at 1:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

"proof" to a blind greedy conservative ideolgue looking after his own financial interests above all else is moot.

Once again you show you can't do proof. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

Note you can't address the reality that the government's deficit is the private sector's surplus.

You were the one insisted the Minsky exercise provided proof, as well as saying he had proved it previously. I merely pointed out accounting programs, like any program do not provide proof of anything. It merely shows the outcome of any assumptions provided it. That applies to pen and paper exercises of the same type. So you don't understand any engineering concept, any science concept and also any accounting concept. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

No I mean your blind evil ideology which claims self-interest as the basis of law, ruling out effective international law.

You're getting emotional again. Emotions are not facts. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

Certainly the greedy blind ideologue can't "know" anthing worth while - hence the ongoing endless wars and entrenched poverty marring our world, when neither are necessary to advance civilization.

More emotions. Try dealing in facts. Although you don't have any, so you can't do that. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

being one of many sanctions imposed on Russia.

SOME banks not ALL banks. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

Certainly China has its sights set higher than your miserable standards.

So tell me when they get there. Plans are not worth anything, it is outcomes that matter. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

Exposing your blind, greedy, 'individual sovereignty' ideology responsible for the endless wars and entrenched poverty in our world is my purpose here.

So your "purpose" is not about climate, not about science, not about engineering, not about proper accounting practice, but what your emotions tell you. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

No, he is a visionary capitalist; your FITH brain can't consider the distinction.

Who will make as much money as possible from his "vision", should he ever be able to do it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

"nothing bad happened"? In fact whole civilizations have collapsed in the past.

The Roman Warm Period - society improved.
The Minoan Warm Period - society improved.
The Mediaeaval Warm Period -Society improved.

When we had the cool periods -
Greenland collapsed
Rome collapsed
We had famines eg Potato famine.

Perhaps you can tell us of when warm periods caused collapse. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

You showing people think AGW climate change is real...thanks.

Yes they do. Are they right? Or is it because there are so many scary stories. But nothing there about apocalyptic warming. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 11:16am:

Yes, a small minority - no doubt young, conservative, FITHs as usual.

But these young ones are the one who have been inculcated by their education, which is predominantly AGW and how bad it is. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #583 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am

lee wrote on Jun 4^th, 2023 at 1:25pm:

You were the one insisted the Minsky exercise provided proof, as well as saying he had proved it previously.

And you are the non-economist who can't address the reality that the government's deficit is the private sector's surplus. (see #507 in the MMT thread).

Quote:

You're getting emotional again. Emotions are not facts. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Fact: effective international law..... "to save mankind from the scourge of war" (preamble to the UN Charter) - requires elimination of the veto in the UNSC; incomprehensible fact to a blind "individual sovereignty" ideologue.

Quote:

SOME banks not ALL banks. Dummy. Roll Eyes

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/other/signs-of-de-dollarisation-emerging-wall-st...

"The impact of steep U.S. interest rate rises and the use of sanctions that have frozen the likes of Russia out of the global banking system are driving the so-called BRICs nations - Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa - to challenge the dollar’s hegemony.

Quote:

So tell me when they get there. Plans are not worth anything, it is outcomes that matter. Dummy. Roll Eyes

A goal of a sustainable green economy with common prosperity is likely to be more successful than a goal of winner takes all in a survival of the fittest economy.

(Musk is now richer than the US treasury, according to flat-earth mainstream economists who are fretting over the US debt. ....)

Quote:

So your "purpose" is not about climate, not about science, not about engineering, not about proper accounting practice, but what your emotions tell you. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Crippled conservative brain can't connect the dots:

https://profstevekeen.substack.com/p/troll-wars-in-economics?utm_source=post-ema...

"I experienced two instances of (neoclassical economists') smugness last week on (where else?) Twitter, via the Londoner Tim Worstall (@worstall) on climate change, and an anonymous New Zealander "Econgrad" (@Econgrad5143), on the role of money in economics.

Worstall trolled Peter Kalmus for saying that "I don't know how more parents aren't climate activists", with the claim that all we need is a carbon tax, citing both Lord Stern and "Nobel Prize" winner Nordhaus as examples of "actual science".

See the MMT thread #526 for the whole article.

Quote:

Who will make as much money as possible from his "vision", should he ever be able to do it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Nothing wrong with making money, if you are transforming the world to achieve sustainable common prosperity. Crippled conservative brain can't spot the difference.

Quote:

The Roman Warm Period - society improved.
The Minoan Warm Period - society improved.
The Mediaeaval Warm Period -Society improved.

The collapse of the Bronze age civilizations in the Mediterranean world (Minoan and Mycenaean).

Quote:

Perhaps you can tell us of when warm periods caused collapse. Dummy. Roll Eyes

The desertification of the Sahara region, c4000 BC.

Quote:

Yes they do. Are they right? Or is it because there are so many scary stories. But nothing there about apocalyptic warming. Dummy. Roll Eyes

The IPCC says a chance of catastrophic AGW; a majority ofpeople believe it.

Quote:

But these young ones are the one who have been inculcated by their education, which is predominantly AGW and how bad it is. Dummy. Roll Eyes

As the figures show: a small minority of the young - all FITH conservatives who reject the IPCC reports.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #584 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:56am

Bobby. wrote on Jun 5^th, 2023 at 10:23pm:

Q&A tonight 5th June 2023:

NSW will lose another coal fire power station in 2025 meaning 25% of its electricity will be lost
with no guarantee that renewables can replace it by then -
so expect power blackouts from the insane Green polices.

The Greens policies are neither insane nor are they the problem.

The problem is FITH conservatives who don't accept the IPCC AGW reports and want to continue making money out of fossil fuels; and FITH flat-earth neoclassical economists who are hindering the timely transition to renewables with thier inane calls for carbon taxes which politicians and the public don't want.

We are already a decade behind where we should be - and Labor isn't doing everything it should, like upgrading the grid and building strorage ASAP.

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #585 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:56am:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 5^th, 2023 at 10:23pm:

Q&A tonight 5th June 2023:

NSW will lose another coal fire power station in 2025 meaning 25% of its electricity will be lost
with no guarantee that renewables can replace it by then -
so expect power blackouts from the insane Green polices.

The Greens policies are neither insane nor are they the problem.

The problem is FITH conservatives who don't accept the IPCC AGW reports and want to continue making money out of fossil fuels; and FITH flat-earth neoclassical economists who are hindering the timely transition to renewables with their inane calls for carbon taxes which politicians and the public don't want.

We are already a decade behind where we should be - and Labor isn't doing everything it should, like upgrading the grid and building storage ASAP.

It's not until we have blackouts that people like you will understand.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #586 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:26pm

Bobby. wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:56am:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 5^th, 2023 at 10:23pm:

Q&A tonight 5th June 2023:

NSW will lose another coal fire power station in 2025 meaning 25% of its electricity will be lost
with no guarantee that renewables can replace it by then -
so expect power blackouts from the insane Green polices.

The Greens policies are neither insane nor are they the problem.

The problem is FITH conservatives who don't accept the IPCC AGW reports and want to continue making money out of fossil fuels; and FITH flat-earth neoclassical economists who are hindering the timely transition to renewables with their inane calls for carbon taxes which politicians and the public don't want.

We are already a decade behind where we should be - and Labor isn't doing everything it should, like upgrading the grid and building storage ASAP.

It's not until we have blackouts that people like you will understand.

I already understand, whereas you are part of the problem - outlined above - for which you prefer to blame me.

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #587 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:40pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:26pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:56am:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 5^th, 2023 at 10:23pm:

Q&A tonight 5th June 2023:

NSW will lose another coal fire power station in 2025 meaning 25% of its electricity will be lost
with no guarantee that renewables can replace it by then -
so expect power blackouts from the insane Green polices.

The Greens policies are neither insane nor are they the problem.

The problem is FITH conservatives who don't accept the IPCC AGW reports and want to continue making money out of fossil fuels; and FITH flat-earth neoclassical economists who are hindering the timely transition to renewables with their inane calls for carbon taxes which politicians and the public don't want.

We are already a decade behind where we should be - and Labor isn't doing everything it should, like upgrading the grid and building storage ASAP.

It's not until we have blackouts that people like you will understand.

I already understand, whereas you are part of the problem - outlined above - for which you prefer to blame me.

The Govt should have made one last large coal fire power station
to look after us while we wait for renewables.
We have high grade anthracite coal to burn in one.
Instead they are demolishing them all while we don't have alternative energy = blackouts.

The Chinese are building new coal fire stations every week and laughing at us.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #588 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:53pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

And you are the non-economist who can't address the reality that the government's deficit is the private sector's surplus. (see #507 in the MMT thread).

And still you can't provide proof. You were the one said he had proved MMT. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

Fact: effective international law..... "to save mankind from the scourge of war" (preamble to the UN Charter) - requires elimination of the veto in the UNSC; incomprehensible fact to a blind "individual sovereignty" ideologue.

It quite probably does.And nowhere have I said different. So that's another nothing burger from you. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/other/signs-of-de-dollarisation-emerging-wall-st...

"The impact of steep U.S. interest rate rises and the use of sanctions that have frozen the likes of Russia out of the global banking system are driving the so-called BRICs nations - Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa - to challenge the dollar’s hegemony.

And nowhere do they say ALL banks. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

A goal of a sustainable green economy with common prosperity is likely to be more successful than a goal of winner takes all in a survival of the fittest economy.

Ah, Now you have gone from absolutes to likely. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

Crippled conservative brain can't connect the dots:

https://profstevekeen.substack.com/p/troll-wars-in-economics?utm_source=post-ema
...

Poor petal. Once again falls back on Keen, who you still can't show he "proved" MMT. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

Worstall trolled Peter Kalmus for saying that "I don't know how more parents aren't climate activists", with the claim that all we need is a carbon tax, citing both Lord Stern and "Nobel Prize" winner Nordhaus as examples of "actual science".

So let's look at that sentence. Worstall claimed that all we need is a carbon tax, citing Stern and Nordhaus as examples of "actual science". Seeing as Keen calls Worstall a troll, it seems he doesn't believes that. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Once again you show a lack of comprehension.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

Nothing wrong with making money, if you are transforming the world to achieve sustainable common prosperity.

Making money is not the same as profiteering, which is the likely outcome. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

The collapse of the Bronze age civilizations in the Mediterranean world (Minoan and Mycenaean).

Likely the result of a cooling climate. Widespread famine. Not a warming climate.

Quote:

The potential of climate change to substantially alter human history is a pressing concern, but the specific effects of different types of climate change remain unknown. This question can be addressed using palaeoclimatic and archaeological data. For instance, a 300-year, low-frequency shift to drier, cooler climate conditions around 1200 bc is frequently associated with the collapse of several ancient civilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean and Near East1,2,3,4. However, the precise details of synchronized climate and human-history-scale associations are lacking.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05693-y

Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

The desertification of the Sahara region, c4000 BC.

Scientists don't know why. Though theories abound. Overgrazing being one. Not climate driven. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

The IPCC says a chance of catastrophic AGW; a majority ofpeople believe it.

Opinions are like a*seholes - everybody has one. It doesn't make it true. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:39am:

As the figures show: a small minority of the young - all FITH conservatives who reject the IPCC reports.

Poor petal. Claims to know the unknowable. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:02pm by lee »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #589 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:54pm

Bobby. wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:40pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:26pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 11:56am:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 5^th, 2023 at 10:23pm:

Q&A tonight 5th June 2023:

NSW will lose another coal fire power station in 2025 meaning 25% of its electricity will be lost
with no guarantee that renewables can replace it by then -
so expect power blackouts from the insane Green polices.

The Greens policies are neither insane nor are they the problem.

The problem is FITH conservatives who don't accept the IPCC AGW reports and want to continue making money out of fossil fuels; and FITH flat-earth neoclassical economists who are hindering the timely transition to renewables with their inane calls for carbon taxes which politicians and the public don't want.

We are already a decade behind where we should be - and Labor isn't doing everything it should, like upgrading the grid and building storage ASAP.

It's not until we have blackouts that people like you will understand.

I already understand, whereas you are part of the problem - outlined above - for which you prefer to blame me.

The Govt should have made one last large coal fire power station
to look after us while we wait for renewables.
We have high grade anthracite coal to burn in one.
Instead they are demolishing them all while we don't have alternative energy = blackouts.

...because the climate deniers, flat earth economists and ff profit gougers are hindering a timely transition.

Quote:

The Chinese are building new coal fire stations every week and laughing at us.

Unlike Oz who can afford to transition from ffs quickly, China - a developing country** - still has to rely on coal to increase energy supply, since renewables storage takes longer to build.

Even so China is already the world's largest producer of renewables, and is also building nuclear capacity faster than anyone else.

** note: when China is classified as a developed economy, it will be at least twice the size of US gdp.

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #590 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:58pm

Quote:

Unlike Oz who can afford to transition from ffs quickly

That is a lie -

we cannot replace the coal energy that fast.
We will have blackouts.

Q&A tonight 5th June 2023:

NSW will lose another coal fire power station in 2025 meaning 25% of its electricity will be lost
with no guarantee that renewables can replace it by then -
so expect power blackouts from the insane Green polices.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #591 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm

lee wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 12:53pm:

And still you can't provide proof. You were the one said he had proved MMT. Dummy. Roll Eyes

You don't "prove" there are enough resources(as opposed to money) in the world to achieve sustainable common prosperity, you just do it - unless you are a blind, greedy conservative neoclassical ideologue, of course.

Quote:

It quite probably does.And nowhere have I said different. So that's another nothing burger from you. Dummy. Roll Eyes

So you see the problem with the blind "individual sovereignty" delusion, good. But your greedy, blind individual sovereignty delusion will just say - that's 'human nature', so let's continue with slaughtering children in war, you fake delusional ideologue.

Quote:

"The impact of steep U.S. interest rate rises and the use of sanctions that have frozen the likes of Russia out of the global banking system are driving the so-called BRICs nations - Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa - to challenge the dollar’s hegemony.

And nowhere do they say ALL banks. Dummy. Roll Eyes

"have frozen Russia out of the global banking system" .... oh never mind, your crippled conservative brain is rendering you incapble of comprehension.

Quote:

Ah, Now you have gone from absolutes to likely. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Something the crippled conservative brain CAN'T do...even if the prosperous survival of all the world depends on it...

Quote:

So let's look at that sentence. Worstall claimed that all we need is a carbon tax, citing Stern and Nordhaus as examples of "actual science". Seeing as Keen calls Worstall a troll, it seems he doesn't believes that. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Of dear, you stuffed up the meaning of the paragraph, as expected. Keen put "actual science" - as propagated by Stern and Nordhaus - in quotes for a reason, ie their "actual science" is crap science.

Once again you show a lack of comprehension (to borrow your words...

Quote:

Making money is not the same as profiteering, which is the likely outcome. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Depends on the individual.

Quote:

Likely the result of a cooling climate. Widespread famine. Not a warming climate.

Likely?

But given: " the precise details of synchronized climate and human-history-scale associations are lacking", whereas the IPCC's warning of a chance of catastrophic AGW is real, which research will you go with? The majority of the public are going with the latter.

Quote:

Dummy.

Don't look in the mirror, unless you want a trip to Bunnings...

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« Last Edit: Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:42pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #592 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 2:45pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm:

You don't "prove" there are enough resources(as opposed to money) in the world to achieve sustainable common prosperity, you just do it - unless you are a blind, greedy conservative neoclassical ideologue, of course.

So if you don't "prove" there are enough resources, how do you know there is? How much lithium, how much iron ore? Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm:

So you see the problem with the blind "individual sovereignty" delusion, good. But your greedy, blind individual sovereignty delusion will just say - that's 'human nature', so let's continue with slaughtering children in war, you fake delusional ideologue.

Again merely mouthing nothings. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm:

"have frozen Russia out of the global banking system" .

And yet you can't find a quote saying ALL banks. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm:

Something the crippled conservative brain CAN'T do...even if the prosperous survival of all the world depends on it...

It is you have been saying the absolutes. And now you have resiled from that. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm:

Keen put "actual science" - as propagated by Stern and Nordhaus - in quotes for a reason, ie their "actual science" is crap science.

Exactly. And yet they are the darlings of AGW. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm:

Depends on the individual.

It depends on your blinkered views of C-B. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm:

But given: " the precise details of synchronized climate and human-history-scale associations are lacking", whereas the IPCC's warning of a chance of catastrophic AGW is real, which research will you go with?

The IPCC whose flawed models show way too much warming? Which scientific paper said that it was likely catastrophic? Dummy. Roll Eyes

But you failed in your claims of warming climates causing these things.

"In order to establish a forecast, interactions between the oceans, the atmosphere, ice masses and soil surface have to be considered in the climate models. How the climate is going to influence the Sahara in future cannot be said for sure. However, the desert has shown a greener image over the last 15 years. Increasing temperatures lead to a stronger evaporation over the sea; said condensations rain down onto dry land. Especially in summer, heavier rainfalls occur in the central Sahara. As reported, there are also torrents, which have supposedly put the dry valleys four meters under water. This is a blessing for the desert as the vegetation recovers. "

https://www.britannica.com/video/179436/Overview-impact-Sahara-discussion-desert...

"Green Sahara: African Humid Periods Paced by Earth's Orbital Changes"

https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/green-sahara-african-humid-per...
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm:

he majority of the public are going with the latter.

Yes.Sheeple being scared into it. Way to go. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 1:34pm:

Don't look in the mirror, unless you want a trip to Bunnings...

Bunnings don't do dummies. But that explains you perfectly. A know nothing. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #593 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm

lee wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 2:45pm:

So if you don't "prove" there are enough resources, how do you know there is? How much lithium, how much iron ore? Dummy.

You get on with the job; at the halfway mark you compare known resource reserves with what is required to complete the job. Enough uranium is always there if needed.

Quote:

...(re human nature).... "nothings" ....

Says the blind ideologue, satisfied to blame others for child slaughter; 500 officially in Ukraine so far..when the blind 'individual sovereignty' ideology is responsible for crippling the UNSC.

Quote:

And yet you can't find a quote saying ALL banks. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Er...."Russia" IS "all banks" in Russia .. you FITH conservative.

Quote:

It is you have been saying the absolutes. And now you have resiled from that. Dummy. Roll Eyes

FITH conservative: sustainable prosperity is achievable (an absolute) whereas an individual capitalist may be either a profiteer (likely in most cases) cf making money for the prosperity of the community.

Quote:

Exactly. And yet they are the darlings of AGW. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Crippled brain AND dementia, again. You yourself have previously quoted Nordhaus - who rubbishes an AGW emergency - to disprove AGW.

Quote:

It depends on your blinkered views of C-B. Dummy. Roll Eyes

More conservative black and white ideation: C-B is likely a visionary making money to progess sustainable prosperity, not a greedy capitalist who would destroy the world for his own enrichmnet through profiteering.

Quote:

The IPCC whose flawed models .....

Says the blind conservative who thinks he knows more than a thousand of the world's climate scientists.

Quote:

Yes.Sheeple being scared into it. Way to go. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Scientists aren't usually scared into anything.

Quote:

Bunnings don't do dummies. But that explains you perfectly. A know nothing. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Bunnings do mirrors.... and you won't have any left in your house if you look at them; just a friendly warning....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #594 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 6:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

You get on with the job; at the halfway mark you compare known resource reserves with what is required to complete the job.

And having wasted millions of man-hours in the meantime. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

Says the blind ideologue, satisfied to blame others for child slaughter; 500 officially in Ukraine so far..when the blind 'individual sovereignty' ideology is responsible for crippling the UNSC.

Poor petal. Another slip in his grasp of reality. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

Er...."Russia" IS "all banks" in Russia .

No it isn't. There are a number of banks in Russia. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

FITH conservative: sustainable prosperity is achievable (an absolute) whereas an individual capitalist may be either a profiteer (likely in most cases) cf making money for the prosperity of the community.

Another loss of reality. Profieers don't care about "prosperity of the community". Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

You yourself have previously quoted Nordhaus - who rubbishes an AGW emergency - to disprove AGW.

Yes. Because he is an economist and knows NOTHING about climate. Just like Keen. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

More conservative black and white ideation: C-B is likely a visionary making money to progess sustainable prosperity, not a greedy capitalist who would destroy the world for his own enrichmnet through profiteering.

More wishful thinking. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

Says the blind conservative who thinks he knows more than a thousand of the world's climate scientists.

And yet it is a fact that the IPCC themselves admit. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Why else would they "constrain" the models?

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

Scientists aren't usually scared into anything.

Poor petal. That was in response to your comment on "public". Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

Bunnings do mirrors.... and you won't have any left in your house if you look at them; just a friendly warning....

So you don't go to Bunnings, because you break their mirros. Got it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #595 - Jun 6^th, 2023 at 6:40pm Just in on Channel 7 TV news tonight. Victoria to face power blackouts this winter - ( thanks to the Greens.) I can't find it with Google.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #596 - Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm

lee wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 6:24pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 5:30pm:

You get on with the job; at the halfway mark you compare known resource reserves with what is required to complete the job.

And having wasted millions of man-hours in the meantime. Dummy. Roll Eyes

No, the world running on 50% renewables is certainly not a waste of man hours, after which the way to complete the job will be clear.

Quote:

Poor petal. Another slip in his grasp of reality. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Love it; talking about "reality" - as he sees it - while extinction from war, and or ecological collapse threatens.

Quote:

No it isn't. There are a number of banks in Russia. Dummy. Roll Eyes

'Crippled conservative brain; falls for the fallacy of composition every time.

Quote:

Another loss of reality. Profieers don't care about "prosperity of the community". Dummy. Roll Eyes

Dementia leading to loss of comprehension.; now you are arguing FOR my point, thanks.

Quote:

Yes. Because he is an economist and knows NOTHING about climate. Just like Keen. Dummy. Roll Eyes

https://theconversation.com/nobel-prize-winning-economics-of-climate-change-is-m...

"While climate scientists warn that climate change could be catastrophic, economists such as 2018 Nobel prize winner William Nordhaus assert that it will be nowhere near as damaging. In a 2018 paper published after he was awarded the prize, Nordhaus claimed that 3°C of warming would reduce global GDP by just 2.1%, compared to what it would be in the total absence of climate change. Even a 6°C increase in global temperature, he claimed, would reduce GDP by just 8.5%."

Obviously Nordhaus thinks he knows about the science, in order to come up with those figures re the economic impact. Keen is commenting on the neoclassical 'trolls' who cite Nordhaus as proof AGW can be ignored.

Quote:

More wishful thinking. Dummy. Roll Eyes

C-B wants to build the largest PV array in the world; he sees a green global economy - with near-zero cost of electricity for all - as achievable.

Quote:

And yet it is a fact that the IPCC themselves admit. Dummy. Roll Eyes

The IPCC admit a chance of an AGW emergency.

Quote:

Poor petal. That was in response to your comment on "public". Dummy. Roll Eyes

Crippled brain: the public these days tend to accept the science as presented by fearless scientists.

Quote:

So you don't go to Bunnings, because you break their mirros. Got it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

...backwards as usual....you calling someone a dummy is moot.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #597 - Jun 7^th, 2023 at 2:06pm Bobby. wrote on Jun 6^th, 2023 at 6:40pm: Victoria to face power blackouts this winter - ( thanks to the Greens.) No; thanks to AGW climate deniers, and neoclassical economists. https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/new
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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #598 - Jun 7^th, 2023 at 2:20pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

No, the world running on 50% renewables is certainly not a waste of man hours, after which the way to complete the job will be clear.

That is if there are enough resources for 50%. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Love it; talking about "reality" - as he sees it - while extinction from war, and or ecological collapse threatens.

And yet there is no ecological collapse, no extinction. Where are these occurring. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

'Crippled conservative brain; falls for the fallacy of composition every time.

So you fail to comprehend again. You really are a dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Dementia leading to loss of comprehension.; now you are arguing FOR my point, thanks.

You haven't even showed you have a salient point. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Obviously Nordhaus thinks he knows about the science, in order to come up with those figures re the economic impact.

Doesn't make it so. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Keen is commenting on the neoclassical 'trolls' who cite Nordhaus as proof AGW can be ignored.

Keen wouldn't know either. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

C-B wants to build the largest PV array in the world; he sees a green global economy - with near-zero cost of electricity for all - as achievable.

Exactly where has he said he will provide "near-zero cost of electricity for all". Everywhere there are large renewables has seen costs rise. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

The IPCC admit a chance of an AGW emergency.

And yet you can't cite the paper that says this. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

Crippled brain: the public these days tend to accept the science as presented by fearless scientists.

Sheeple accept. Scientists are by nature sceptics. That is why we have advances in science - they question the status quo. Yours is simply a belief system. Gaia will provide. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

...backwards as usual....you calling someone a dummy is moot.

When you don't have basic accounting and say you understand economics, when you don't have any science, when you don't have any engineering - you prove the point. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Keen proved MMT with and accounting package. Grin

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #599 - Jun 7^th, 2023 at 2:39pm 1.5C? oh dear - According to Berkeley Earth land only it passed 1.5C back in about 1930.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #600 - Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm

lee wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 2:20pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 7^th, 2023 at 1:13pm:

No, the world running on 50% renewables is certainly not a waste of man hours, after which the way to complete the job will be clear.

That is if there are enough resources for 50%. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Of course, but you don't sit around twiddling your thumbs wondering.

Quote:

And yet there is no ecological collapse, no extinction. Where are these occurring. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Oh dear ...the '6th great extinction' has started:
(google)
"Unlike previous extinction events caused by natural phenomena, the sixth mass extinction is driven by human activity, primarily (though not limited to) the unsustainable use of land, water and energy use, and climate change. Currently, 40% of all land has been converted for food production."

Quote:

You haven't even showed you have a salient point. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Dementia: we have to transition to renewables ASAP.

Quote:

Keen wouldn't know either. Dummy. Roll Eyes

And yet you do........(cough)......

Quote:

Exactly where has he said he will provide "near-zero cost of electricity for all". Everywhere there are large renewables has seen costs rise. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Nowhere is there anything near 50% continuous renewables power generation currently. But sunshine and wind are ....free.

And recall: we still need to spend $62 trillion for grid upgrade plus storage. Oops.

Quote:

And yet you can't cite the paper that says this. Dummy. Roll Eyes

You kindly cited it yourself....while quibbling about probabilities.

Quote:

Sheeple accept. Scientists are by nature sceptics. That is why we have advances in science - they question the status quo. Yours is simply a belief system. Gaia will provide. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Confused; the scientific consensus is we need to act to reduce CO2 emissions.

Quote:

Keen proved MMT with and accounting package. Grin

Yet macro-economics - studying the outcomes of the complexity of an almost infinite number economic transactions between parties (and individuals) is much wider than an accounting package relating to transactions between government and banks (in Keen's exercise).

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #601 - Jun 14^th, 2023 at 12:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm:

Of course, but you don't sit around twiddling your thumbs wondering.

You shouldn't start what you can't finish either. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm:

Oh dear ...the '6th great extinction' has started:

No it isn't.

"The 6th mass extinction hasn’t begun yet, study claims, but Earth is barreling toward it"

https://www.livescience.com/sixth-mass-extinction-underway

"But it's coming, believe us". Grin

Dummy.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm:

Dementia: we have to transition to renewables ASAP.

And nowhere have you shown why we "have to". Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm:

And yet you do........(cough)......

Well as good as you with your lack of knowledge of Basic Accounting, let alone Advanced Accounting and Economics. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm:

Nowhere is there anything near 50% continuous renewables power generation currently.

You are forgetting Germany that has more than enough renewables (on paper), except they don't work all the time. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm:

And recall: we still need to spend $62 trillion for grid upgrade plus storage. Oops.

Only IF we chase the Green rainbow of renewables. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm:

Confused; the scientific consensus is we need to act to reduce CO2 emissions.

As I have said MANY times, Consensus is politics not science. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm:

Yet macro-economics - studying the outcomes of the complexity of an almost infinite number economic transactions between parties (and individuals) is much wider than an accounting package relating to transactions between government and banks (in Keen's exercise).

But you were the one said he proved it. I said it all depends on the underlying assumptions. Minsky can't prove anything. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #602 - Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm

lee wrote on Jun 14^th, 2023 at 12:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2023 at 10:48pm:

Of course, but you don't sit around twiddling your thumbs wondering.

You shouldn't start what you can't finish either. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Of course we can finish the transition; the Chinese are building nuclear plants at a faster rate than anyone else, so if necessary we can join them....

Quote:

No it isn't.

"The 6th mass extinction hasn’t begun yet, study claims, but Earth is barreling toward it"

Quibbling over whether it has started or not?

Quote:

"But it's coming, believe us".

Correct, but even more urgent is the change to a circular ie, no waste, non-polluting economy (and don't mention CO2 as "pollution", confirming your low IQ...)

Quote:

And nowhere have you shown why we "have to". Dummy.

The IPCC has convinced the world we have to; and real economists have explained externalities (eg pollution) have to be priced.

Quote:

Well as good as you with your lack of knowledge of Basic Accounting, let alone Advanced Accounting and Economics.

My interest is in macro-economics, not micro. That Keen - using Misky accounting software - was able to prove govt. can finance itself without incurring debt, is a side issue; MMT economists already knew it.

Quote:

You are forgetting Germany that has more than enough renewables (on paper), except they don't work all the time. Dummy

The problem is the Germans decided to close their nuclear plants.

Quote:

Only IF we chase the Green rainbow of renewables

Er ....we ARE chasing it, which is why Labor won the last election (via Greens and Teals support).

Quote:

As I have said MANY times, Consensus is politics not science.

And politics says we have to go Green....

Quote:

But you were the one said he proved it. I said it all depends on the underlying assumptions. Minsky can't prove anything.

Addressed above; Keen considers he proved it; the thought of you disputing the fact with Keen makes me laugh.

Speaking of Keen: (from an email)

"Who’s to blame for the smoke that gave New York City the worst air quality in the world this June?

Economists.

Because they simply don’t understand what climate change means.

Rather than working out how to prevent it, they’ve argued that it’s trivial.

This is why we’ve done so little to address it, and why there are hundreds of fires in Canadian forests right now, with global temperatures at 1.2°C above pre-industrial levels.

A survey of economists who publish papers on climate change found that they believed that, if we hit 5°C over the next century, the rate of economic growth would fall by only 0.02%...

So rather than the economy growing at say 3% per year, it would grow by 2.98% per year.

That’s too small an effect to measure.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #603 - Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 4:07pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

Of course we can finish the transition; the Chinese are building nuclear plants at a faster rate than anyone else, so if necessary we can join them..

So NOT renewables then. Dummy. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

Quibbling over whether it has started or not?

You were the one said it had. I just pointed one source saying it has happened yet. Do you want another saying there is NO 6th Mass Extinction Event? Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

Correct, but even more urgent is the change to a circular ie, no waste, non-polluting economy (and don't mention CO2 as "pollution", confirming your low IQ...)

Sorry. But I don't believe. No waste? You going to eat the bones too? Dummy Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

The IPCC has convinced the world we have to; and real economists have explained externalities (eg pollution) have to be priced.

And nowhere does it point to where we "have to" The IPCC is an Inter GOVERNMENTSAL Panel. Once again nothing to do with Science. Real economists say many things, often diametrically opposed. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

My interest is in macro-economics, not micro.

To understand MAcro you have to understand Micro. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

That Keen - using Misky accounting software - was able to prove govt. can finance itself without incurring debt, is a side issue; MMT economists already knew it.

Once again Keen "proved" nothing, it depends on the underlying assumptions. MMT economists haven't "proved" it either. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

The problem is the Germans decided to close their nuclear plants.

Because renewables was the answer, except it wasn't. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

Er ....we ARE chasing it, which is why Labor won the last election (via Greens and Teals support).

And yet everything on this post is about Nuclear not renewables. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

And politics says we have to go Green...

Politics are not proof of anything. Politics has got us in this mess by trying to choose winners in the energy sector. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

Addressed above; Keen considers he proved it; the thought of you disputing the fact with Keen makes me laugh.

That Keen thinks he proved it is so laughable. Accounting packages "prove" what you want them to prove. It depends on the underlying assumptions. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

This is why we’ve done so little to address it, and why there are hundreds of fires in Canadian forests right now, with global temperatures at 1.2°C above pre-industrial levels.

Canada has a long history of wildfires. Dummy. Roll Eyes

"The recent wildfires occurred in the boreal forests of northern Quebec. Fire isn’t rare in that region. The ecology of these forests relies on fire for the release of seeds and forest health. Many of the major boreal fires occur during a narrow temporal window from mid-April through early June, just after the winter snow has melted and before grasses and other small plants grow, reducing flammability. During this short window, the dead vegetation from the previous year can dry out sufficiently to burn if there is an ignition source such as lightning or errant human activity."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/canadian-wildfires-climate-change-new-york-smoke-gl...

So what caused the fires? Warm weather? People? Lightning?

Warm weather doesn't start fires. Match - 600-800C. Temperature in Canada? A lot less. Dummy Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

That’s too small an effect to measure.

Yep. And still some people want to spend trillions of dollars on something with little effect. It is cheaper to adapt, but not with renewables. Dummy. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #604 - Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm

lee wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 4:07pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2023 at 2:33pm:

Of course we can finish the transition; the Chinese are building nuclear plants at a faster rate than anyone else, so if necessary we can join them..

So NOT renewables then. Dummy.

Er...there is enough uranium and plutonium to last thousands of years, given that the sun IS shining and the wind IS blowing somewhere on the globe, 24/7.

Quote:

You were the one said it had. I just pointed one source saying it has happened yet. Do you want another saying there is NO 6th Mass Extinction Event? Dummy. Roll Eyes

The rate of global deforestation alone is responsible for massive loss of species.

Quote:

Sorry. But I don't believe. No waste? You going to eat the bones too? Dummy Roll Eyes

No; bones make good compost.

Quote:

And nowhere does it point to where we "have to" The IPCC is an Inter GOVERNMENTSAL Panel. Once again nothing to do with Science.

the scientific consensus... oh never mind.

Quote:

Real economists say many things, often diametrically opposed. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Real orthodox neoclassical economists say many things, proving their orthodoxy is wrong. Unlike heterodox (MMT) economists.

Quote:

To understand MAcro you have to understand Micro. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Not so; eg, "there are are sufficient resources in the world to eradicate poverty"...no money-counting necessary (since money is created out of nothing). Treasuries need to become measurers of resources, not money.

Quote:

MMT economists haven't "proved" it either. Dummy. Roll Eyes

See above, reality doesn't need to be "proved".

Quote:

Because renewables was the answer, except it wasn't. Dummy. Roll Eyes

No; because they were scared off by the tsanami accident in Japan.

Quote:

And yet everything on this post is about Nuclear not renewables. Dummy. Roll Eyes

"This post" is part of this thread...oh dear...

Quote:

Politics are not proof of anything. Politics has got us in this mess by trying to choose winners in the energy sector. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Politics determines who is in power. And you are on the losing side . Enjoy.

Quote:

That Keen thinks he proved it is so laughable. Accounting packages "prove" what you want them to prove. It depends on the underlying assumptions. Dummy. Roll Eyes

You debating Keen face to face? ROTFL.

Quote:

Canada has a long history of wildfires. Dummy. Roll Eyes

But NY suffering the worst pollution ever - from those fires - is not normal.

And heard on radio: yesterday, Beijing experienced its hottest day ever recorded.

Quote:

Yep. And still some people want to spend trillions of dollars on something with little effect. It is cheaper to adapt, but not with renewables. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Er ....Keen is exposing orthodox economists' denial of climate change, and their calls for politically-toxic carbon taxes to fix emissions, by underestimating the effects of those CO2 emissions.

So - in the light of all those answers, who is the "dummy"? ....

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #605 - Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 3:35pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Er...there is enough uranium and plutonium to last thousands of years, given that the sun IS shining and the wind IS blowing somewhere on the globe, 24/7.

There is enough uranium and plutonium. No need to worry about intermittent energy, with its lack of scale availability.
Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

The rate of global deforestation alone is responsible for massive loss of species.

You mean the Amazon, the not the "lungs of the world". Identify which species have been lost. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

No; bones make good compost.

They take too long to break down, that's why bones are continually recovered. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

the scientific consensus..

As I keep telling you Consensus is politics, not science. Therefore it is only a political expedience. There is no compelling reason to waste trillions of dollars on political expedience. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Real orthodox neoclassical economists say many things, proving their orthodoxy is wrong.

And yet you continually fail to show "proof" of your favoured MMT. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Not so; eg, "there are are sufficient resources in the world to eradicate poverty".

Are there? Perhaps you can post the link that proves it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

See above, reality doesn't need to be "proved".

Oh dear the bloated blatherer again. Why not? It is not self evident. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

No; because they were scared off by the tsanami accident in Japan.

And yet Japan is in the process of building more nuclear. It was the tsunami that killed the old one. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

This post" is part of this thread...oh dear...

This post is what your latest sayings are. So nuclear instead of renewables. Well done. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Politics determines who is in power.

And only that. So many politicians who have never had a real job. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

You debating Keen face to face? ROTFL.

I am debating you and you are losing handsomely. You don't even understand accounting. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

But NY suffering the worst pollution ever - from those fires - is not normal.

Of course it is, it depends on which way the wind blows. Dummy. Roll Eyes

"Smoke blanketing New York City evokes memories of 1966 ‘killer smog’"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/08/smoke-new-york-city-wildfire-ki...

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

And heard on radio: yesterday, Beijing experienced its hottest day ever recorded.

Wow. That UHI is a killer. Dummy. Grin

"The figure is half a degree higher than the station’s previous monthly record of 40.6C taken in June 1961 – the year China began keeping weather records – and second only to the 41.9C measured in July 1999, according to weather data."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/23/beijing-weather-hottest-june-day-s...

The hottest in 60 odd years. You really are a lightweight. Dummy. Grin

.
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

Er ....Keen is exposing orthodox economists' denial of climate change, and their calls for politically-toxic carbon taxes to fix emissions, by underestimating the effects of those CO2 emissions.

Who are these economists who say the climate doesn't change? Silly. But tell us what the science says about the effects of increasing CO2. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 2:49pm:

So - in the light of all those answers, who is the "dummy"? ...

You dummy. Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #606 - Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm

lee wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2023 at 3:35pm:

There is enough uranium and plutonium. No need to worry about intermittent energy, with its lack of scale availability.Dummy. Roll Eyes

But PV and wind are far cheaper to build, so the immediate task is to build those ASAP, while developing nuclear according to when/if absolutely necessary.

Quote:

You mean the Amazon, the not the "lungs of the world". Identify which species have been lost. Dummy. Roll Eyes

No I mean the world; but in fact Oz is quickly losing species:

(quick google)

"We don't have a moment to lose. Australia has the worst mammal extinction rate of any country in the world, and the catastrophic bushfires of 2019-20 impacted nearly 3 billion animals and have pushed many more of our precious wildlife on the fast-track towards extinction."

Quote:

They take too long to break down, that's why bones are continually recovered. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Cremation: instant fertilizer.

Quote:

As I keep telling you Consensus is politics, not science.

And you have lost the political argument, while weather catastrophes keep increasing.

Quote:

And yet you continually fail to show "proof" of your favoured MMT. Dummy. Roll Eyes

It's common sense for people who understand money (unlike mainstream economists), and doesn't need "proof".

Prof Keen

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/new

#542.

Quote:

Are there? Perhaps you can post the link that proves it. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Overcapacity in every industry - with companies and countries fighting for market access, proves it.

Quote:

Oh dear the bloated blatherer again. Why not? It is not self evident. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Not self-evdent to flat-earthers like you - who nevertheless claim 'natural" rights which don't exist in nature, ouch.

Quote:

And yet Japan is in the process of building more nuclear. It was the tsunami that killed the old one. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Dementia? We were examining why the Germans have shut down their nuclear plants.

Quote:

This post is what your latest sayings are. So nuclear instead of renewables. Well done. Wink

Crippled conservative brain, can't hold two ideas at once, and doesn't understand nuance: eg, as well as - not instead of - renewables.

Quote:

And only that. So many politicians who have never had a real job. Grin

Don't cry to me about your silly blind-leading the blind politics.

Quote:

I am debating you and you are losing handsomely. You don't even understand accounting. Dummy. Roll Eyes

More crippled brain stuff: I am saying Keen would make a fool of you in 2 seconds flat, re accounting.

Of course conservatives aren't capable of seeing the big picture - in this case macro economics, because they see the world as competitve individuals, not as the co-operative collective.

Quote:

Of course it is, it depends on which way the wind blows. Dummy. Roll Eyes

...clever. I'll pay that

Quote:

"Smoke blanketing New York City evokes memories of 1966 ‘killer smog’"

You just shot yourself in the foot: "the 2023 smoke was 'the worst ever' ".

Quote:

Wow. That UHI is a killer. Dummy. Grin

"The figure is half a degree higher than the station’s previous monthly record of 40.6C taken in June 1961 – the year China began keeping weather records – and second only to the 41.9C measured in July 1999, according to weather data."

Yes, hottest recorded June temp., another nail in the coffin of your AGW-CO2 denial

Quote:

The hottest in 60 odd years. You really are a lightweight. Dummy. Grin

Read your own quote above, again.

Quote:

Who are these economists who say the climate doesn't change?

they are saying that even if the climate is changing due to AGW, the economic effects will be small.

Quote:

But tell us what the science says about the effects of increasing CO2. Dummy. Roll Eyes

I refer you to the IPClimateChange consensus of scientists.

Quote:

You dummy. Grin

Keep digging, but don't stand too close.....

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« Last Edit: Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:21pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #607 - Jun 25^th, 2023 at 3:04pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

But PV and wind are far cheaper to build, so the immediate task is to build those ASAP, while developing nuclear according to when/if absolutely necessary.

No. Because of intermittency, they require backup. Whether that is Large scale battery, unproven, or Nuclear or fossil fuel. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

No I mean the world; but in fact Oz is quickly losing species:

Just how many species in the last 30 years? Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

"We don't have a moment to lose. Australia has the worst mammal extinction rate of any country in the world, and the catastrophic bushfires of 2019-20 impacted nearly 3 billion animals and have pushed many more of our precious wildlife on the fast-track towards extinction."

Oh "towards extinction". WWF doesn't even tell us which species are extinct. Just a blanket claim. Dummy. Roll Eyes

"All but one of the mammal extinctions is historic, with most having disappeared between the 1850s and 1950s."

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/mar/03/australia-confirms-extinction-of...

And NOTHING to do with deforestation in the last 30 years. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

Cremation: instant fertilizer.

"Cremated ashes can be used as fertilizer, but there are a few things to keep in mind. First, cremated ashes are high in alkalinity, so they should be used sparingly and mixed with other, more acidic materials. Second, cremated ashes may contain heavy metals that can be harmful to plants, so it is important to test the ashes before using them. Finally, because cremated ashes are sterile, they will not add any beneficial microorganisms to the soil."

Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

And you have lost the political argument, while weather catastrophes keep increasing.

You haven't even shown that weather catastrophes are increasing. Dummy. Roll Eyes

Floods - In summary there is low confidence in the human influence on the changes in high river flows on the global scale. Confidence is in general low in attributing changes in the probability or magnitude of flood events to human influence because of a limited number of studies and differences in the results of these studies, and large modelling uncertainties.

IPCC AR6 WG1 11.5.4

Droughts - There is medium confidence in the ability of ESMs to simulate trends and anomalies in precipitation deficits and AED, and also medium confidence in the ability of ESMs and hydrological models to simulate trends and anomalies in soil moisture and streamflow deficits, on global and regional scales

IPCC AR6 WG1 11.6.3.6

Cyclones - The SREX (Chapter 3) concluded that there is low confidence in observed long-term (40 years or more) trends in TC intensity, frequency, and duration

IPCC AR6 WG1 11.7

So the Physical Science Basis says you are wrong. Nothing surprising there. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

It's common sense for people who understand money (unlike mainstream economists), and doesn't need "proof".

And yet you said you (and Keen) provided 'proof". You don't even understand Basic Accounting, let alone Advanced Accounting and yet somehow understand Economics. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

Overcapacity in every industry - with companies and countries fighting for market access, proves it.

So overcapacity causes price rises, like in fossil fuels. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

Not self-evdent to flat-earthers like you - who nevertheless claim 'natural" rights which don't exist in nature, ouch.

What "natural" rights have I claimed. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

Dementia? We were examining why the Germans have shut down their nuclear plants.

Ah. So we weren't taking about Fukushima then. Roll Eyes

But Germany closed nuclear and went back to fossil fuel, because Energiewende couldn't hack it. And they now want to re-open Nuclear. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

Don't cry to me about your silly blind-leading the blind politics.

What a good little Maoist. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

I am saying Keen would make a fool of you in 2 seconds flat, re accounting.

And yet you don't understand any accounting. That is some fallacy you are promoting. Dummy. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

You just shot yourself in the foot: "the 2023 smoke was 'the worst ever' ".

Nope. "That year, was 1966. But measuring only started in 1970. Dummy. Roll Eyes

TBC

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #608 - Jun 25^th, 2023 at 3:23pm

cont.

"Burke, who was 11 in 1966, was in New York City for a family wedding. He recalls being holed up at the hotel most of the time because after just a few minutes outside, they would have to “wash pollution off your face and hands,” he said.

“I hadn’t seen anything like it in my life before or since,” he said."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/08/smoke-new-york-city-wildfire-ki...

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

Yes, hottest recorded June temp., another nail in the coffin of your AGW-CO2 denial

Oh dear. You just don't understand Urban Heat Island Effect. The larger the population the larger the inherent temperature. And of course less airflow. All those concrete buildings heating up and retaining heat. Dummy. Roll Eyes

But tell me where I have denied AGW-CO2 effect? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

Read your own quote above, again.

So the hottest in 60 years. So tell us what the temperature was during the 1930's when there were high temperatures globally. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

they are saying that even if the climate is changing due to AGW, the economic effects will be small.

Yes. So why spend trillions of dollars for little economic effect. It is cheaper to provide A/C. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

I refer you to the IPClimateChange consensus of scientists.

So we know you don't do science. I will explain. In CO2 theory, increasing CO2 has a logarithmically decreasing effect. That means most of the warming occurred in the first 300ppm. Dummy. Roll Eyes

or this

So tell us the huge amount of warming. Dummy. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:16pm:

Keep digging, but don't stand too close.....

Why? Are you going to break wind? Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #609 - Jul 1^st, 2023 at 1:47pm

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/norway-s-quest-for-black-gold-from-used-car...

Norway's quest for 'black gold' from used car batteries

Story by AFP • Yesterday 3:24 pm

Industry leader Norway, where electricity is almost exclusively generated by renewable energies, is the uncontested world champion of zero-emission electric cars, with the latter accounting for more than 80 percent of new car registrations.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #610 - Jul 1^st, 2023 at 2:08pm Norway, the country that exports Oil and Gas. The renewables from hydro.
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15563 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #611 - Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:21pm lee wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 2:08pm: Norway, the country that exports Oil and Gas. The renewables from hydro. That's why we will need a new global financial system, to manage the transition from coal and gas ASAP. FF exporters have to transition ASAP, along with everyone else.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #612 - Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:22pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:21pm:

lee wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 2:08pm:

Norway, the country that exports Oil and Gas. The renewables from hydro. Roll Eyes

That's why we will need a new global financial system, to manage the transition from coal and gas ASAP.

FF exporters have to transition ASAP, along with everyone else.

Bwian who is going to control this brand new global financial system?

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #613 - Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:47pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:22pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:21pm:

lee wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 2:08pm:

Norway, the country that exports Oil and Gas. The renewables from hydro. Roll Eyes

That's why we will need a new global financial system, to manage the transition from coal and gas ASAP.

FF exporters have to transition ASAP, along with everyone else.

Bwian who is going to control this brand new global financial system?

The people already gathered in various forums around the world examining how to deal with the crippling developing-nation debt crisis - and how to achieve a global transition - including those nations - to renewables ASAP, will decide on the control mechanism.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #614 - Jul 1^st, 2023 at 5:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:47pm:

The people already gathered in various forums around the world examining how to deal with the crippling developing-nation debt crisis - and how to achieve a global transition - including those nations - to renewables ASAP, will decide on the control mechanism.

You mean like those hail intolerant solar panels? Grin

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #615 - Jul 1^st, 2023 at 5:33pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:47pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:22pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:21pm:

lee wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 2:08pm:

Norway, the country that exports Oil and Gas. The renewables from hydro. Roll Eyes

That's why we will need a new global financial system, to manage the transition from coal and gas ASAP.

FF exporters have to transition ASAP, along with everyone else.

Bwian who is going to control this brand new global financial system?

The people already gathered in various forums around the world examining how to deal with the crippling developing-nation debt crisis - and how to achieve a global transition - including those nations - to renewables ASAP, will decide on the control mechanism.

That’s right ....a handful of new elites. Gotcha.

God you can’t possibly be this much of a tosspot ... can you? You’re merely wanting to swap one group of elites for another and you couldn’t give a fat rat’s clacker if millions of human beings died in the process! How do I know this? Because you yourself said so. Here 👇

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 28^th, 2023 at 8:25pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 28^th, 2023 at 6:08pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 1:39pm:

I find your efforts to defend the CCP's killing of 50 million people with their lies and incompetence rather alarming.

Of course you do; you find the idea of rule of law on behalf of collective well-being alarming.

I think I’ll leave that as is. NotsoGreat’s remarkable and unique brand of insanity needs an opportunity to shine 😐

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« Last Edit: Jul 1^st, 2023 at 5:46pm by Lisa Jones »

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #616 - Jul 1^st, 2023 at 6:10pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 5:33pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:47pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:22pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 4:21pm:

lee wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 2:08pm:

Norway, the country that exports Oil and Gas. The renewables from hydro. Roll Eyes

That's why we will need a new global financial system, to manage the transition from coal and gas ASAP.

FF exporters have to transition ASAP, along with everyone else.

Bwian who is going to control this brand new global financial system?

The people already gathered in various forums around the world examining how to deal with the crippling developing-nation debt crisis - and how to achieve a global transition - including those nations - to renewables ASAP, will decide on the control mechanism.

[highlight]That’s right ....a handful of new elites. Gotcha.

No; the new director of the World Bank is not "elite"; and a new generation of financiers is seeking new solutions as required in a climate constrained world.

Quote:

You’re merely wanting to swap one group of elites for another and you couldn’t give a fat rat’s clacker if millions of human beings died in the process!

Wrong on both counts, as expected from a blind 'survival of the fittest' ideologue.

Quote:

How do I know this? Because you yourself said so. Here

This will be funny (or more likely, excruciating), coming from a blind "personal sovereignty" ideologue:

Quote:

FD

killing of 50 million people with their lies and incompetence rather alarming.

Er... please note: the "killing of 50 million people" is NOT 'the collective welfare'.... Are you brain-damaged?

Quote:

GD:

Of course you do; you find the idea of rule of law on behalf of collective well-being alarming.

Correct, and like Fraud Diver, you do too.

Quote:

I think I’ll leave that as is. NotsoGreat’s remarkable and unique brand of insanity needs an opportunity to shine 😐

So...can you explain what part of "collective well-being" you are offended by?

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« Last Edit: Jul 1^st, 2023 at 6:18pm by thegreatdivide »

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #617 - Jul 2^nd, 2023 at 12:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 6:10pm:

No; the new director of the World Bank is not "elite"; and a new generation of financiers is seeking new solutions as required in a climate constrained world.

"The Executive Directors of the World Bank today selected Ajay Banga as President of the World Bank for a five-year term beginning June 2, 2023.

Ajay Banga most recently served as Vice Chairman at General Atlantic. Previously, he was President and CEO of Mastercard, a global organization with nearly 24,000 employees. "

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2023/05/03/ajay-banga-selected-1...

Not elite? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 6:10pm:

Er... please note: the "killing of 50 million people" is NOT 'the collective welfare'....

It is to the CCP. Roll Eyes

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #618 - Jul 2^nd, 2023 at 2:48pm

lee wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2023 at 12:54pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 1^st, 2023 at 6:10pm:

No; the new director of the World Bank is not "elite"; and a new generation of financiers is seeking new solutions as required in a climate constrained world.

"The Executive Directors of the World Bank today selected Ajay Banga as President of the World Bank for a five-year term beginning June 2, 2023.

Ajay Banga most recently served as Vice Chairman at General Atlantic. Previously, he was President and CEO of Mastercard, a global organization with nearly 24,000 employees. "

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2023/05/03/ajay-banga-selected-1...

Not elite? Grin

Ok, I withdraw that example. So we must rely on the new generation of financiers/economists who are seeking new solutions as required in a climate-constrained world.

Quote:

It is to the CCP. Roll Eyes

Er... do you condemn Pope Francis for the Spanish Inquisition under Torquemada?

The CCP under Deng to Xi has lifted more people out of people at a faster rate than any nation in history.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #619 - Jul 2^nd, 2023 at 3:22pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2023 at 2:48pm:

Ok, I withdraw that example.

So you were wrong again. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2023 at 2:48pm:

Er... do you condemn Pope Francis for the Spanish Inquisition under Torquemada?

Wow. Mixing historical fact and current fact. The CCP still practices the NOT collective welfare. How do you explain homelessness otherwise. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2023 at 2:48pm:

The CCP under Deng to Xi has lifted more people out of people at a faster rate than any nation in history.

More people out of people? Perhaps you meant poverty.

"But neither Xi nor state media explained how the figures were calculated and what threshold was used, prompting questions about the metrics. In 2019, China’s statistics bureau defined rural poverty as below per capita annual income of 2,300 yuan ($356). Previous officials have defined the poverty line as less than 4,000 yuan ($620) a year, or $1.69 a day — less than the World Bank’s threshold of $1.90 a day and well below the $5.50 a day that economists recommend for upper-middle-income countries."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-poverty-economy-growth/2...

It is easy to say when you control the press. Wink

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #620 - Jul 5^th, 2023 at 5:42am

Geologist, Professor Ian Plimer, utterly demolishes the
human-induced "climate emergency" fairy tale in three and a half minutes:

CPAC 2022

Professor Ian Plimer
18m

Watch distinguished Professor Ian Plimer’s presentation at CPAC Australia.
Brought to you by ADH TV.

"[Six of the six] great ice ages started when we had more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than now.
We have 0.04% of that gas in the atmosphere...
Well that means nothing to me, because the atmosphere has changed in its carbon dioxide content from over 20% to now, which is really low in geological time.
If we halved it, all plant life would die, and animals would die."

Video here:

https://watch.adh.tv/cpac-2022/season:2/videos/cpac-2022-prof-ian-plimer

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #621 - Jul 5^th, 2023 at 12:00pm

Bobby. wrote on Jul 5^th, 2023 at 5:42am:

Geologist, Professor Ian Plimer, utterly demolishes the
human-induced "climate emergency" fairy tale in three and a half minutes:

https://gab.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=240,quality=100,fit=scale-down/system/previe...

CPAC 2022

Professor Ian Plimer
18m

Watch distinguished Professor Ian Plimer’s presentation at CPAC Australia.
Brought to you by ADH TV.

"[Six of the six] great ice ages started when we had more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than now.
We have 0.04% of that gas in the atmosphere...
Well that means nothing to me, because the atmosphere has changed in its carbon dioxide content from over 20% to now, which is really low in geological time.
If we halved it, all plant life would die, and animals would die."

Video here:

https://watch.adh.tv/cpac-2022/season:2/videos/cpac-2022-prof-ian-plimer

Yet Plimer is being ignored:

https://www.afr.com/policy/energy-and-climate/nem-s-solar-wind-surge-still-only-...

"The renewables boom is happening at only half the pace needed"

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #622 - Jul 5^th, 2023 at 12:24pm

lee wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2023 at 3:22pm:

So you were wrong again. Roll Eyes

Not really, I moved on for the sake of the argument: we don't know yet whether the new World Bank chief is a reformer or not.

Quote:

Mixing historical fact and current fact. The CCP still practices the NOT collective welfare. How do you explain homelessness otherwise. Roll Eyes

The CCP is the only government which has recomitted to "common prosperity" (after China's dabbling in typical Western-type 'housing for investment' policies led to the Evergrande collapse; which is why Xi recently reaffirmed "houses are for living in".

And common prosperity means eliminating the tents occupied by the homeless on city streets, as we see in major cities in the US, despite the US's 5 times per capita GDP.

Quote:

"But neither Xi nor state media explained how the figures were calculated and what threshold was used, prompting questions about the metrics. In 2019, China’s statistics bureau defined rural poverty as below per capita annual income of 2,300 yuan ($356). Previous officials have defined the poverty line as less than 4,000 yuan ($620) a year, or $1.69 a day — less than the World Bank’s threshold of $1.90 a day and well below the $5.50 a day that economists recommend for upper-middle-income countries."

China has created the world's largest middle class in the shortest time in history. As for the 600 million still in relative poverty - imagine the situation in India whose GDP, and GDP per capita, is only about a fifth China's figures, for roughy the same population in both countries. A mere 5 decades ago India was richer than China.

Quote:

It is easy to say when you control the press. Wink

Press bias is always a problem for the truth.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #623 - Jul 5^th, 2023 at 1:08pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 5^th, 2023 at 12:24pm: But YOU believe.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #624 - Jul 5^th, 2023 at 1:12pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 5^th, 2023 at 12:00pm:

Yet Plimer is being ignored:

https://www.afr.com/policy/energy-and-climate/nem-s-solar-wind-surge-still-only-...

"The renewables boom is happening at only half the pace needed"

And Plimer doesn't get a mention. Dummy. Roll Eyes

If there is no climate emergency, and the IPCC Physical Science Basis says there is not, there is no need to rush headlong into intermittent power supplies. Roll Eyes

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #625 - Dec 3^rd, 2023 at 6:25am
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59523 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #626 - Dec 24^th, 2023 at 5:51pm As the first week of the COP28 climate talks were winding up in Dubai earlier this month Andrew Forrest managed to secure Joe Biden’s chief climate diplomat, John Kerry, as guest of honour at a party on his ship docked in Dubai Harbour. Phew... thank God it wasn't his private jet.
Back to top	Estragon: I can’t go on like this. Vladimir: That’s what you think. IP Logged

Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #627 - Mar 10^th, 2024 at 8:45am BOM has manipulated temperature records to show a false increase in temperature - 27.02.24 Senator Gerard Rennick
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #628 - Mar 12^th, 2024 at 5:47pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13184903/How-Greens-leader-Adam-Bandt-s...

How Greens leader Adam Bandt spent thousands on
private jet flights while lecturing you about climate change

Greens leader splurges on printing
Adam Bandt also took private jets

By David Southwell For Daily Mail Australia

Published: 12:25 AEDT, 12 March 2024

Greens leader Adam Bandt has come under fire for racking up an expenses bill
of almost $1million a year, including hundreds of thousands on printing and two private jet flights.

The anti-fossil fuel campaigner also claimed $12,000 on a taxpayer-provided vehicle and petrol allowance plus $29,000 on government COMCAR trips and taxis, according to figures from the Department of Finance.

Despite his party's core policy of cutting C02 emissions Mr Bandt used two private jets during the 2022 election campaign, landing tax payers with the $23,000 bill.

One flight was between Queensland regional centres Townsville and Rockhampton on March 7.

However, he also took a a $15,000 private plane along the well-travelled Brisbane to Canberra route to attend his party's election campaign launch.

During the year Mr Bandt also spent $57,000 for domestic flights on himself and an eye-watering $372,000 in travel expenses for his 21 staff.

The $963,166 in expenses racked up by Mr Bandt are on top of his $314,000 salary and do not include the wages of his personal staff.

For his personal vehicle use, it is understood Mr Bandt is renting a hybrid model.

Independent MP Dai Le questioned why Mr Bandt used private flights on well-serviced commercial routes considering his climate stance.

'I'm shocked by the news of parliamentarians overspending and surprised by the Greens use of chartered flights when they are the party that opposed the use of fossil fuels,' she told the Daily Telegraph.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #629 - Mar 27^th, 2024 at 12:33pm Hailstorm in Texas. https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/news/neighbors-next-to-solar-panel-farm-hammered... Can it happen here?
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #630 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 2:47pm

Meanwhile Europe is planning 72GW of gas plant.

"Europe plans to build enough new gas power stations to supply 60 million homes despite a target of decarbonising electricity grids by the middle of the 2030s.

About 72 gigawatts-worth of new gas-fired power stations are planned across the Continent, according to a report from pressure group Beyond Fossil Fuels.

Gas power capacity across the Continent is on track to rise by 27pc under current proposals, despite a promise among G7 nations to decarbonise electricity grids by 2035.

Britain is planning or building more gas-fired power stations than almost any other European country, the analysis found."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/03/27/europe-britain-gas-use-surge-des...

Will those against fossil fuel realise that 100% renewable is not attainable. Even the CSIRO says there must be a mix. Roll Eyes

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121163 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #631 - Mar 31^st, 2024 at 2:51pm Thanks Lee, in Victoria we are running out of gas.
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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 33694 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #632 - Dec 28^th, 2024 at 9:04am
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21360 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #633 - Dec 28^th, 2024 at 12:51pm Bobby. wrote on Mar 31^st, 2024 at 2:51pm: Thanks Lee, in Victoria we are running out of gas. Nope. There is plenty of gas there. The Vic Government doesn't want it extracted. A totally different scenario.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #634 - Dec 28^th, 2024 at 2:24pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 31^st, 2024 at 2:51pm:

Thanks Lee,
in Victoria we are running out of gas. Sad

Of all the states, Victoria is a province in acute decline.

Gross state product, a measure of the state’s economy, fell 1.2 per cent per capita across the year. This is the worst of any state apart from WA due to sectoral weakness in parts of the mining industry.

Business insolvencies in Victoria are at their highest. In the September quarter 1038 businesses were lost – 70 per cent more than in the corresponding period a year earlier. The unemployment rate is rivalled only by the Northern Territory, and Victoria’s net debt as a share of GSP is the highest in the country.

These developments were hardly unforeseeable but for many Victorians they have become as unforgivable as the potholed roads that litter the state.

This could have profound consequences for the Prime Minister. The spectre of the 1990 federal election now hangs over the Albanese government like Damocles’ sword.

Former Victorian Liberal premier Jeff Kennett is convinced that the level of anger at Victoria’s Labor government could cost a considerable number of seats at the federal election.

“It is my view that come the federal election, when it is held, the Coalition will pick up a considerable number of seats here,” Kennett tells Inquirer this week.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #635 - Jan 14^th, 2025 at 9:03pm

New Hope chairman Robert Millner says the coal miner is relieved more than a decade of lawfare around a mine expansion has come to an end but has issued a dire warning about the impact bureaucracy and approval delays are having on the Australian economy.

The billionaire investor spoke out after the Oakey Coal Action Alliance – represented by the taxpayer-funded Environmental Defender’s Office – waved the white flag in along and bitter legal battle over the New Acland stage 3 expansion in Queensland’s Darling Downs.

New Hope spent more than $100m over the past decade fighting opponents of the New Acland stage 3 expansion.

The Alliance said it was a tough decision to end its legal fight and vowed to maintain the rage against mining projects in an effort to protect farmland and water supplies.

“We are down but not out. We will continue to oppose further expansion of inappropriate mining in closely settled agricultural districts” Alliance secretary Paul King said.

It appears the Alliance, a registered charity, ran out of money to keep fighting despite the EDO representation, and was worried about having substantial costs awarded against it if unsuccessful in an appeal over a water licence for the New Acland mine.
...

Mr Millner said red and green tape and approval delays in the resources industry were an Australian-wide problem and not confined to the fossil fuel industry.

“The thing that people don’t realize is everybody’s trying to shut down coal and gas and petroleum, but it takes as long to get an approval for a copper or cobalt mine. I don’t know where people are going to find all these commodities in years to come if all these other things do shut down,” he said.

Mr Millner called for Australia to roll out the equivalent US president-elect Donald Trump’s department of government efficiency (DOGE) to cut red and green tape in the wake of New Hope’s experiences at New Acland over the past 14 years.

The long-time chairman of Washington H Soul Pattinson, which owns the lion’s share of New Hope, said the growing bureaucratic and red tape burden on investors at all levels, including families, and should be a major election issue.

“It has to be (an election issue). Bureaucracy and the time it takes to get anything done is out of control. Look at approval for getting a house? In some shires and suburbs now it’s over 300 days. Thirty years ago, you’d go and put your plans in on a Monday morning and pick them up on a Thursday,” he said.

New Hope received approval to expand the New Acland - an open cut thermal coal mine about 30 kilometres from Oakey - in 2014, but then Queensland premier Campbell Newman got cold feet on the project in the lead up to a state election.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #636 - Jan 16^th, 2025 at 6:14am

Lawfare

Coal industry leaders have blasted the use of taxpayer funds to help with various court cases that cost New Hope Corporation more than a $100m to defend, before the company ultimately secured victory in the fight to expand a Queensland mine.

Coal Australia chief executive Stuart Bocking said the situation faced by New Hope was “intolerable” and sent a terrible message about investment in the nation’s resources industry.

Mr Bocking said some activist groups didn’t care whether they eventually won or lost court cases, as long as they were able to cause long delays and discourage investment.

He said governments and government departments that put mining companies through exhaustive approvals needed to step up in court in defence of projects challenged by activist groups.

“One of problems we face now is that many of these activist groups don’t really care whether they win, lose or draw. What emboldens them, what activates them, is delaying these projects and putting proponents to enormous costs, all in the hope that eventually shareholders, investors, funders get cold feet and decide this is all too difficult,” he said.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #637 - Jan 16^th, 2025 at 8:07am

Frank wrote on Dec 28^th, 2024 at 2:24pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 31^st, 2024 at 2:51pm:

Thanks Lee,
in Victoria we are running out of gas. Sad

Of all the states, Victoria is a province in acute decline.

Gross state product, a measure of the state’s economy, fell 1.2 per cent per capita across the year. This is the worst of any state apart from WA due to sectoral weakness in parts of the mining industry.

Business insolvencies in Victoria are at their highest. In the September quarter 1038 businesses were lost – 70 per cent more than in the corresponding period a year earlier. The unemployment rate is rivalled only by the Northern Territory, and Victoria’s net debt as a share of GSP is the highest in the country.

These developments were hardly unforeseeable but for many Victorians they have become as unforgivable as the potholed roads that litter the state.

This could have profound consequences for the Prime Minister. The spectre of the 1990 federal election now hangs over the Albanese government like Damocles’ sword.

Former Victorian Liberal premier Jeff Kennett is convinced that the level of anger at Victoria’s Labor government could cost a considerable number of seats at the federal election.

“It is my view that come the federal election, when it is held, the Coalition will pick up a considerable number of seats here,” Kennett tells Inquirer this week.

Victoria is turning into a depression State -

too many taxes and rules.
Payroll taxes, land taxes - you name it - the cost of business is too high
and now add lack of cheap energy and Victoria is closing for business -
the lights are turning off.

It will be the new Calcutta before long -
many 1 bedroom flats have 12 Indians living in them -
there's nowhere proper for many people to live.

This is the result of too many years of Labor.
IQs are low here - at least half of the people are illiterate -
that's why they keep voting for Labor.

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 62048 Here Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #638 - Jan 16^th, 2025 at 10:18am Gnads wrote on Dec 28^th, 2024 at 9:04am: Put the cows under the solar panels and capture the methane. Win win ?
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lee

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Australian Politics

Posts: 21360
Gender: male

Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #639 - Jan 16^th, 2025 at 1:38pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 16^th, 2025 at 10:18am:

Put the cows under the solar panels and capture the methane.

Well let's see.

First of all- How is methane (CH4) measured? It is measured in a lab in dry air.
Why dry air? Because it decomposes quickly in the presence of water plus the infrared window is mostly opaque to methane due overlapping with H2O, the primary greenhouse gas.

How is the Global Warming Potential of methane assessed?

It is assessed using equal mass (weight) of CH4 to CO2.

What is the mol weight of CH4? 16g/mol (C=12,H=1)

What is the mol weight of CO2? 44g/mol (C is still 12, O=16)

What is the present volume of CO2 and CH4 in the atmosphere? CO2 about 320 425ppmv (parts per million volume), CH4 something less than 2. (1.98ppmv)

Now because CH4 is not only much lighter than CO2 (16/44) = 0.36, but also far less concentration, CH4 would have to increase dramatically. So the equation would be 320 425ppmv/2ppmv and then the whole divided by 0.36 or about 58 590 times.

So death by methane is a non-goer.

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« Last Edit: Jan 17^th, 2025 at 1:18pm by lee »

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Bobby.

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Australian Politics

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Melbourne
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #640 - Jan 16^th, 2025 at 2:57pm

Bobby. wrote on Jan 16^th, 2025 at 8:07am:

Victoria is turning into a depression State -

too many taxes and rules.
Payroll taxes, land taxes - you name it - the cost of business is too high
and now add lack of cheap energy and Victoria is closing for business -
the lights are turning off.

It will be the new Calcutta before long -
many 1 bedroom flats have 12 Indians living in them -
there's nowhere proper for many people to live.

This is the result of too many years of Labor.
IQs are low here - at least half of the people are illiterate -
that's why they keep voting for Labor.

It's Marxism - no real ownership of land -
you pay rent to own land - it's land taxes.
No ownership of your labor -
the boss pays tax to rent you - payroll taxes.

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