Australian Politics Forum - The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia

polite_gandalf

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #165 - Oct 7^th, 2022 at 10:07am

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 8:42pm:

Perhaps you could give some contexts in which the answer is different?

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom?

You have clearly forgotton the context, as you are too busy being inane.

Here's a reminder:

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

Quote:

What do you mean by "inciting violence"?

Not "hate speech that can lead to violence".

after which...

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 9^th, 2022 at 12:01pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2022 at 6:24pm:

Not "hate speech that can lead to violence".

why not? Why bother splitting hairs? - if it *DOES* lead to violence, then it is inciting violence - no?

Quote:

For want of a nail.

up to this point we were having an adult discussion. From here though you went into pre-school mode - simply repeating the nail analogy that I made perfectly clear that I did not understand. Despite repeated pleas to explain it within the above context of free speech and incitement, you decided to play stupid pre-school games.

But since you ask, that is the context.

The problem for me FD is that you never adequately explained the difference between "hate speech that leads to violence" and "inciting violence" - even though you insist the two are different. Either way, you do seem to accept that free speech can indeed result in violence - hence your ham-fisted attempt at using the nail analogy as a way of warning against blaming free speech for any negative consequences that may result.

But that is not what my question is about. I am not attempting to de-legitimize the principle of free speech. The question is about your position FD - because as it currently stands, it is contradictory and nonsensical: that free speech cannot be incitement to violence, yet on the same token, it can lead to violence. Please square that circle for me. If a public figure calls on cartoonists to be killed - and lo and behold, the next day a whole bunch of cartoonists are killed, the killers citing their inspiration from the speech of said public figure. Apparently that is not incitement by your definition - correct? You would just dismiss this as a legitimate right to argue the case for capital punishment for cartoonists. And yet it very clearly "incited" people to act upon what he said - whether he meant for that to happen or not.

You can start by explaining where the line between incitement and free speech exists. Because I do accept that it is possible for (legitimate) speech to be misconstrued and abused, and where any violence that ensues should not be understood as incitement. Yet, you surely cannot disagree that there is such a thing as 'incitement' that is outside the bounds of 'fire in the theatre' type speech that you seem to restrict it to. But this does, unfortunately for you, mean that you would need to walk back on your previous claim that "hate speech that leads to violence" cannot be 'incitement to violence'

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Bias_2012 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10766 Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #166 - Oct 7^th, 2022 at 10:46am polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 7^th, 2022 at 10:07am: up to this point we were having an adult discussion No adult in their right mind follows Islam
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freediver

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #167 - Oct 16^th, 2022 at 9:11am

Quote:

simply repeating the nail analogy that I made perfectly clear that I did not understand

Because you keep thinking of it as an analogy and trying to second guess where your own thoughts will lead you if you give an honest answer. Think of it instead as an apprentice who erred in making a nail, one later consequence of which was the loss of a kingdom. I am happy to copy and paste the whole proverb if it helps.

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #168 - Oct 17^th, 2022 at 12:52pm

the apprentice and the nail are obviously analogies FD.

You wouldn't have brought it up if they weren't.

Lets try a different tact, shall we? What does it mean if I answer "yes" and what does it mean if I answer "no" - in relation to my actual question?

But feel free to just repeat and/or copy and paste the analogy again if you really are determined not to have an adult conversation.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49599 At my desk.	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #169 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 7:18am Quote: Lets try a different tact, shall we? What does it mean if I answer "yes" and what does it mean if I answer "no" - in relation to my actual question? One would suggest you don't get the principle, one would suggest you do. Why are you afraid to answer the question?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #170 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 10:14am

I can't answer the question FD, because I don't understand it. I've only said that about 10 times already.

You've also forgotton whatever point it was you were trying to make. I went to the trouble of explaining that to you - pointing out what I was actually asking, and how you are singularly failed to answer. For reference, this was my latest effort:

Quote:

freediver wrote on Oct 6th, 2022 at 8:42pm:
Perhaps you could give some contexts in which the answer is different?

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom?

You have clearly forgotton the context, as you are too busy being inane.

Here's a reminder:

freediver wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 6:24pm:
Quote:
What do you mean by "inciting violence"?

Not "hate speech that can lead to violence".

after which...

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 9th, 2022 at 12:01pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 8th, 2022 at 6:24pm:
Not "hate speech that can lead to violence".

why not? Why bother splitting hairs? - if it *DOES* lead to violence, then it is inciting violence - no?

Quote:
For want of a nail.

up to this point we were having an adult discussion. From here though you went into pre-school mode - simply repeating the nail analogy that I made perfectly clear that I did not understand. Despite repeated pleas to explain it within the above context of free speech and incitement, you decided to play stupid pre-school games.

But since you ask, that is the context.

The problem for me FD is that you never adequately explained the difference between "hate speech that leads to violence" and "inciting violence" - even though you insist the two are different. Either way, you do seem to accept that free speech can indeed result in violence - hence your ham-fisted attempt at using the nail analogy as a way of warning against blaming free speech for any negative consequences that may result.

But that is not what my question is about. I am not attempting to de-legitimize the principle of free speech. The question is about your position FD - because as it currently stands, it is contradictory and nonsensical: that free speech cannot be incitement to violence, yet on the same token, it can lead to violence. Please square that circle for me. If a public figure calls on cartoonists to be killed - and lo and behold, the next day a whole bunch of cartoonists are killed, the killers citing their inspiration from the speech of said public figure. Apparently that is not incitement by your definition - correct? You would just dismiss this as a legitimate right to argue the case for capital punishment for cartoonists. And yet it very clearly "incited" people to act upon what he said - whether he meant for that to happen or not.

You can start by explaining where the line between incitement and free speech exists. Because I do accept that it is possible for (legitimate) speech to be misconstrued and abused, and where any violence that ensues should not be understood as incitement. Yet, you surely cannot disagree that there is such a thing as 'incitement' that is outside the bounds of 'fire in the theatre' type speech that you seem to restrict it to. But this does, unfortunately for you, mean that you would need to walk back on your previous claim that "hate speech that leads to violence" cannot be 'incitement to violence'

You have repeatedly ignored these patient attempts to get a grown-up response from you. Why are you afraid to do that FD?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49599 At my desk.	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #171 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 12:14pm Quote: I can't answer the question FD, because I don't understand it. You understand the question just fine. The only thing you are getting hung up on is what either of us might say after you answer it.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #172 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 1:48pm

who is the nail in your analogy FD? Who is the apprentice? I'll give you a hint - its got something to do with hate speech and incitement to violence, and your contradictory position on it. A position I have gone to great pains to spell out to you.

And before you say it - yes it is an analogy.

Here's how I interpret the analogy:

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom? = should the necessary right of free speech be held liable for bad things that might happen because of it - like violence?

Just a simple confirmation that this is the analogy you meant would be a great start - or maybe I am getting something wrong? Unfortunately though, the problem with using this analogy as your answer to my question - is that it doesn't actually answer my question - as I have already pointed out in great detail - ad-infinitum.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 107644 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #173 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 2:02pm The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia? Easy - just ask Muslims to redact all the parts of their Koran which promote violence. You know - a big black texter mark over all those violent passages.
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Yadda

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #174 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 2:33pm

gandalf,

Q.
Why don't moslems like living in Syria ?

...in Lebanon ?

...in Somalia ?

...in Iraq ?

...in Egypt ?

...in Tunisia ?

...in Libya ?

...in Pakistan ?

...and on, and on.

It isn't a trick question.

But has it got something to do with the fact the >> wherever << followers of ISLAM live, every individual moslem, [as child] reads his Koran and the Hadith [studies, ISLAMIC religious doctrine], and by the time that adulthood comes upon him,
this young person has determined that only his own understanding of Allah's will, can be the correct one ?
....i.e. from his mothers knee, he has read the Koran, to better understand Allah's will.

And so, the moslem decides that, to indeed be a good moslem, his obligation in life, is to obey Allah.

And he knows what Allah commands, regarding the correct way of the promotion of Allah's perfect religion.

.

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

.

ISLAMIC LAW TEXT....

"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06

EXAMPLE, CONSEQUENCE; of young formative minds following [being exposed to] ISLAMIC 'religious doctrine'.

-------- >

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1431117115/1#1
......

WE SEE, EVIDENCE, THAT IN AUSTRALIA, MOSLEM CHILDREN, IN MANY MOSLEM HOMES, ARE BEING TAUGHT
'HOW TO PRACTICE ISLAM',
AND FROM CHILDHOOD, ARE BEING URGED TO DEVELOP THE DESIRE TO BECOME AN ISLAMIC MARTYR ------ >

And of course, moslems in Australia, will vehemently reject such an accusation,
.....coming from a person, another Australian, who is not a follower of ISLAM.

But can such 'rejections', from the local moslem community be sustained ?

------ >

15-year-old gunman, Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar
.....follower of ISLAM.

n.b.
Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar went to a meeting at his local mosque, to be given the pistol there.

------ >

IMAGE...

Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar outside Parramatta police headquarters

QUESTION;
What 'set off' Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar on that fateful day, to decide to murder Australian Curtis Cheng in Parramatta, NSW ???

ANSWER;
ONLY ALLAH KNOWS!

n.b.

ISLAMIC culture encouraged Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar, to murder Australian Curtis Cheng.

Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar was inspired by ISLAM's imperative, which urged him TO KILL THE ENEMIES OF ALLAH.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Brian Ross Gold Member Online Representative of me Posts: 42767	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #175 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 2:34pm The Best Way to Combat Christophobia? Easy - just ask Christians to redact all the parts of their Bible which promote violence. You know - a big black texter mark over all those violent passages.
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Bobby.

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #176 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 2:41pm

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 2:34pm:

The Best Way to Combat Christophobia?

Easy - just ask Christians to redact all the parts of their Bible which promote violence.

You know -
a big black texter mark over all those violent passages. Roll Eyes

Sure - we can do that -
most of the OT would be redacted especially Deuteronomy.

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 48611 Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #177 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 4:43pm The best way is by showing that there is absolutely nothing wrong with fearing and opposing Islam. That way the weaselly misnomer "Islamophobia" is defeated. https://mobile.twitter.com/EvaVlaar/status/1582040827135610880
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Yadda

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #178 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 5:45pm

Frank wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 4:43pm:

The best way is by showing that there is absolutely nothing wrong with fearing and opposing Islam.

That way the weaselly misnomer "Islamophobia" is defeated.

https://mobile.twitter.com/EvaVlaar/status/1582040827135610880

"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name."

- Confucius

Q.
So why are we, as a society, so, so afraid, to do so ???

So afraid, to contradict and disagree with the HIVE MIND, the WOKE, the PC majority.

ISLAM ?

Human history itself, attests that ISLAM is a philosophy which has encouraged and condoned the oppression and murder of millions, and millions of human beings, who came into contact with the followers of ISLAM.

------- >

WWW search....
islam kill "2 million Christians", sudan, since 1983
.....BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FOLLOWERS OF ISLAM

WWW search....
islam jihad into india killed 80 million
.....BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FOLLOWERS OF ISLAM

WWW search....
islam has massacred over 669+ million non-muslims since 622AD
.....BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FOLLOWERS OF ISLAM

WWW search....
the people of Afghanistan, were once 100% Buddhist, before they came into contact with ISLAM

.

Moslem = = a follower of ISLAM.

------- >

Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1570367530/2#2
Quote:

MY ARGUMENT;
1/ Every moslem is a follower of ISLAM.

2/ And ISLAM is a philosophy which mandates that its followers must fight and kill people, who reject ISLAM, and reject the primacy of ISLAMIC law.

And, a new attack is going to occur whenever any individual moslem [living among us, in Australia] decides that 'now' is a good moment for him to prove his devotion to ISLAM and to Allah.

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1431117115/1#1
Quote:

"every moslem in Australia is a latent, wanna-be homicidal maniac"

- Yadda

QUESTION;
What about the innocent moslems ?

IMO, [logically] there are no innocent moslems [among persons who have come to the age of consent], and yet still declare themselves to be moslems.

How so [logically] ?

QUESTION;
How credible is it that a person who is devout enough to insist that he is a moslem, is unaware of what ISLAM promotes, and is unaware of what the principle tenets of ISLAM are ?

QUESTION;
How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'], ...to a philosophy which transforms human beings, into homicidal maniacs ?

QUESTION;
How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'], ...to a philosophy which claims that murdering, in the cause of religious bigotry, is a religious virtue ?

.

These Bible verses are referring to the spirit entity of, 'Wisdom'.

Proverbs 8:34
Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

There is no such thing, as a spirit entity of, 'Wisdom' ?

No there is not !

Not in the hearts of our nations leaders !

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Frank

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #179 - Oct 18^th, 2022 at 6:17pm

Yadda wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 5:45pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 4:43pm:

The best way is by showing that there is absolutely nothing wrong with fearing and opposing Islam.

That way the weaselly misnomer "Islamophobia" is defeated.

https://mobile.twitter.com/EvaVlaar/status/1582040827135610880

"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name."

- Confucius

Q.
So why are we, as a society, so, so afraid, to do so ???

So afraid, to contradict and disagree with the HIVE MIND, the WOKE, the PC majority.

ISLAM ?

Human history itself, attests that ISLAM is a philosophy which has encouraged and condoned the oppression and murder of millions, and millions of human beings, who came into contact with the followers of ISLAM.

------- >

WWW search....
islam kill "2 million Christians", sudan, since 1983
.....BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FOLLOWERS OF ISLAM

WWW search....
islam jihad into india killed 80 million
.....BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FOLLOWERS OF ISLAM

WWW search....
islam has massacred over 669+ million non-muslims since 622AD
.....BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FOLLOWERS OF ISLAM

WWW search....
the people of Afghanistan, were once 100% Buddhist, before they came into contact with ISLAM

.

Moslem = = a follower of ISLAM.

------- >

Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1570367530/2#2
Quote:

MY ARGUMENT;
1/ Every moslem is a follower of ISLAM.

2/ And ISLAM is a philosophy which mandates that its followers must fight and kill people, who reject ISLAM, and reject the primacy of ISLAMIC law.

And, a new attack is going to occur whenever any individual moslem [living among us, in Australia] decides that 'now' is a good moment for him to prove his devotion to ISLAM and to Allah.

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1431117115/1#1
Quote:

"every moslem in Australia is a latent, wanna-be homicidal maniac"

- Yadda

QUESTION;
What about the innocent moslems ?

IMO, [logically] there are no innocent moslems [among persons who have come to the age of consent], and yet still declare themselves to be moslems.

How so [logically] ?

QUESTION;
How credible is it that a person who is devout enough to insist that he is a moslem, is unaware of what ISLAM promotes, and is unaware of what the principle tenets of ISLAM are ?

QUESTION;
How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'], ...to a philosophy which transforms human beings, into homicidal maniacs ?

QUESTION;
How 'innocent' is a person who agrees to give aid and comfort [and to give their own 'power'], ...to a philosophy which claims that murdering, in the cause of religious bigotry, is a religious virtue ?

.

These Bible verses are referring to the spirit entity of, 'Wisdom'.

Proverbs 8:34
Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

There is no such thing, as a spirit entity of, 'Wisdom' ?

No there is not !

Not in the hearts of our nations leaders !

Dear Yadda,
Today's word is - redundancy.
https://grammarist.com/redundancies/

Also, it was Evelyn Waugh, I think, who said (I quote from memory), 'a bore is someone who leaves out no detail'.
Worth studying.

Content = A
Delivery/presentation = F

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