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The Heavy Legacies of Our Past (Read 31377 times)
freediver
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #30 - May 2nd, 2016 at 3:23pm
 
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Are you changing your argument to the republic? You initially confined your argument to the Roman Empire and said it's impossible to uncover different periods as it's all lost to the sands of time.


Read my previous reponse on this Karnal.

Quote:
At its core, the "substance" of the article is ludicrous: the West is better than Islam because we have elections and they have inbreeding.


I thought we were restricting ourselves to the points made in the article?

Do you think western democracy and liberty is a good thing? That it contributes to our wealth? What about all that inbreeding? Do you deny the direct support for it in the Koran, the difficulties that Muslim nations would have banning it because of this, or the significant negative impact this has on Muslim societies?

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But the West did not have elections for 2000 years


The west has no lead for 2000 years.

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and the Roman empire had far more inbreeding than the caliphate


How do you know this? So far all your commentary appears restricted to the ruling class, and you seem to think that was my argument also.

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According to Matty's IQ article, the Arabs interbred with African slaves - slaves who, as you've said - could gain their freedom by converting to Islam.


I doubt it was as easy as Abu made out for slaves to gain their freedom. And there are surprisingly few African looking faces among the middle eastern arabs today. The inbreeding thing may go some way to explaining this.

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So there, in a nutshell, is why the caliphate was more "inclusive" than the Roman republic and empire: slaves could become citizens.


By submitting? This did not exactly get them any closer to having a say in government, though it did make it more economically inclusive, to the extent the slaves were actually freed.

Quote:
This could never happen in Rome, a province where the vast majority of those within its borders were slaves and non-citizens.


Never ever?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire#Freedmen

Rome differed from Greek city-states in allowing freed slaves to become citizens.

The rise of successful freedmen—through either political influence in imperial service, or wealth—is a characteristic of early Imperial society. The prosperity of a high-achieving group of freedmen is attested by inscriptions throughout the Empire, and by their ownership of some of the most lavish houses at Pompeii, such as the House of the Vettii. The excesses of nouveau riche freedmen were satirized in the character of Trimalchio in the Satyricon by Petronius, who wrote in the time of Nero. Such individuals, while exceptional, are indicative of the upward social mobility possible in the Empire.
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Mattyfisk
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #31 - May 2nd, 2016 at 3:40pm
 
Freed men were not slaves anymore, FD, but a good detail nevertheless.

Inbreeding was common in Rome, particularly among patricians who wanted their wealth kept in the family. It was also common after the fall of Rome, and particularly among the European aristocracy.

Quote:
For some prominent examples of cousin marriages in ancient Rome, such as the marriage of Octavian's daughter to his sister's son, see the Julio-Claudian family tree. Marcus Aurelius also married his maternal first cousin Faustina the Younger, and they had 13 children. Cousin marriage was more frequent in Ancient Greece, and marriages between uncle and niece were also permitted there.[4] One example is King Leonidas I of Sparta, who married his half-niece. A Greek woman who became epikleros, or heiress with no brothers, was obliged to marry her father's nearest male kin if she had not yet married and given birth to a male heir. First in line would be either her father's brothers or their sons, followed by her father's sisters' sons.[36] According to Goody, cousin marriage was allowed in the newly Christian and presumably also pre-Christian Ireland, where an heiress was also obligated to marry a paternal cousin. From the 7th century the Irish Church only recognized four degrees of prohibited kinship, and civil law fewer. This persisted until after the Norman conquests in the 11th century and the synod at Cashel in 1101.[37] In contrast, contemporary English law was based on official Catholic policy, and Anglo-Norman clergy often became disgusted with the Irish "law of fornication".[38] Finally, Edward Westermarck states that marriage among the ancient Teutons was apparently prohibited only in the ascending and descending lines and among siblings.[39] First cousin marriage was also common among southern Italians as Sicily had a high percentage of cousin marriage of almost 50 percent in rural areas in the early 20th century.[40][41]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

But I'm curious. What's the direct support for inbreeding in the Koran?

I draw your attention to a certain country on your inbreeding map that has gone meticulously avoided to date: India, a country where 20-29% are allegedly inbred.

India is also an emerging world power, the second largest emerging economy in the world. If your thesis is correct, if inbreeding leads to a decline in living standards, technological development, "inclusive" systems of government, etc, etc, etc, how could India possibly have such a high level of economic growth?

I'd pose a simple solution to this enigma, but I'm not sure you'll agree with my answer.

Population.

India, quite simply, is an emerging world power because it has the world's second highest population in the world.

And yes, I know where you'll go with this. No, you'll say, India is an emerging world power because it has "elections", the heavy legacy of our past, bequeathed by that great past empire, Mother England.

To which my response will be, no FD, India is a democracy because it fought for its independence from Mother. I'll also say that China is not a democracy but they're the second biggest economy in the world, so democracy couldn't possibly be the cause of wealth creation per se.

Oh - and China has "elections".

No, India is an emerging power despite its high level of inbreeding and even its low average IQ score - a few points lower than all those Muslim countries.

So there you go again - not even a country's average estimated IQ score is the sole driver of national wealth/economic growth. India has high inbreeding, a low average IQ score, elections, and as much tintedness as all your Muselman countries put together.

But it does have a hell of a lot of people.

Ah.

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« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2016 at 5:36pm by Mattyfisk »  
 
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freediver
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #32 - May 2nd, 2016 at 5:31pm
 
http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islamic_Incest_Ratchet#Quranic_sup...

A few examples says nothing at all about how common inbreeding was, and if it was "common" after the fall, that hardly contradicts anything in the article.

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Mattyfisk
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #33 - May 2nd, 2016 at 5:37pm
 
I'll throw in my edit for you to think about.

Quote:
I draw your attention to a certain country on your inbreeding map that has gone meticulously avoided to date: India, a country where 20-29% are allegedly inbred.

India is also an emerging world power, the second largest emerging economy in the world. If your thesis is correct, if inbreeding leads to a decline in living standards, technological development, "inclusive" systems of government, etc, etc, etc, how could India possibly have such a high level of economic growth?

I'd pose a simple solution to this enigma, but I'm not sure you'll agree with my answer.

Population.

India, quite simply, is an emerging world power because it has the world's second highest population.

And yes, I know where you'll go with this. No, you'll say, India is an emerging world power because it has "elections", the heavy legacy of our past, bequeathed by that great past empire, Mother England.

To which my response will be, no FD, India is a democracy because it fought for its independence from Mother. I'll also say that China is not a democracy but they're the second biggest economy in the world, so democracy couldn't possibly be the cause of wealth creation per se.

Oh - and China has "elections".

No, India is an emerging power despite its high level of inbreeding and even its low average IQ score - a few points lower than all those Muslim countries.

So there you go again - not even a country's average estimated IQ score is the sole driver of national wealth/economic growth. India has high inbreeding, a low average IQ score, elections, and as much tintedness as all your Muselman countries put together.

But it does have a hell of a lot of people.

Ah.
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #34 - May 2nd, 2016 at 5:45pm
 
freediver wrote on May 2nd, 2016 at 5:31pm:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islamic_Incest_Ratchet#Quranic_sup...

A few examples says nothing at all about how common inbreeding was, and if it was "common" after the fall, that hardly contradicts anything in the article.



Sorry, FD, what I asked was what was the "direct support" for inbreeding in the Koran?

By this I meant which part of Islam encourages or compels the marriage of cousins?

Your Koran quotes merely allow such marriages, as did the laws of ancient Rome and even Australian law today.
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #35 - May 2nd, 2016 at 5:50pm
 
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To which my response will be, no FD, India is a democracy because it fought for its independence from Mother.


Whichever way you spin it, it has democracy. The British influence there is undeniable, but they would still benefit from democracy even if they got it some other way. I'd say the Muslims, the inbreeders etc are holding them back, and Britain's influence (democracy in aprticular) is pulling them forward.

Quote:
I'll also say that China is not a democracy but they're the second biggest economy in the world, so democracy couldn't possibly be the cause of wealth creation per se.


Acemoglu's theory is that political and economic inclusiveness cause wealth, and reinforce each other. China's rise is attributable to two strong forces - the one child policy, and economic inclusiveness. The communist party is introducing capitalism. There is a rapid and genuine liberation happening, at least in terms of economic freedom. Also in contrast to your typical dictatorship, the communist party is relatively democratic in the internal mechanisms, which puts it a few steps ahead of many places on the political front, and creates a framework that will no doubt ease future reform. China is one of those countries where Acemoglu's theory is playing out in full force. Look for the new middle class demanding political reform some time soon.
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #36 - May 2nd, 2016 at 5:54pm
 
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By this I meant which part of Islam encourages or compels the marriage of cousins?


I did not use the word compulsion. The Koran specifically permits it, and Muhammed's example encourages it. That is, it can not be seen as one of those things that is "permitted but discouraged" like beating and raping your wives and sex slaves. The specific permission for it makes it hard for Muslim countries as well as religious institutions to outlaw it or issue a fatwa against it, and the Muhammed example makes it difficult for them to criticise it.
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #37 - May 2nd, 2016 at 6:01pm
 
freediver wrote on May 2nd, 2016 at 5:50pm:
Look for the new middle class demanding political reform some time soon.


The Acemogluists have been saying this for some time now, FD. And yet, the opposite is occurring. Xi Jinping is even using a crackdown on corruption to cement power and reduce "inclusiveness".

I'd like to think Acemonglu is right, but unfortunately, few facts seem to back up his argument. You haven't yet shown how the caliphate was less politically inclusive than Rome. I'm not saying it wasn't either - I'd just like to see some facts.

Feel free to show them.
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #38 - May 2nd, 2016 at 6:05pm
 
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The Acemogluists have been saying this for some time now, FD. And yet, the opposite is occurring. Xi Jinping is even using a crackdown on corruption to cement power and reduce "inclusiveness".


How quickly do you expect this to happen Karnal?

Quote:
You haven't yet shown how the caliphate was less politically inclusive than Rome.


Except of course, for the whole election thing in Rome, and Islam being ideologically opposed to the rejection of Shariah law. It's kind of hard to have an inclusive political process with a predetermined outcome don't you think?
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #39 - May 2nd, 2016 at 6:25pm
 
freediver wrote on May 2nd, 2016 at 5:54pm:
Quote:
By this I meant which part of Islam encourages or compels the marriage of cousins?


I did not use the word compulsion. The Koran specifically permits it, and Muhammed's example encourages it. That is, it can not be seen as one of those things that is "permitted but discouraged" like beating and raping your wives and sex slaves. The specific permission for it makes it hard for Muslim countries as well as religious institutions to outlaw it or issue a fatwa against it, and the Muhammed example makes it difficult for them to criticise it.


Strange. It's legal to marry "the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts" in most of the world. Why is it still common in the Middle East and Central Asia?

The custom of arranged marriage, and in particular, dowries. Brothers and sisters do not demand such a high price for their children's hands in marriage. Take away the dowry system and there's no economic incentive to skimp on dowries, which is just what happened when China did away with dowries in the 20th century.

Muhammed married a 9 year old, but child marriage is illegal in every Muslim country bar 3: Iran, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Muslim countries, it would seem, do not need a religious injunction to approve or ban things.
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #40 - May 2nd, 2016 at 6:29pm
 
So Islam has no influence on the law in Muslim countries?

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #41 - May 2nd, 2016 at 6:39pm
 
freediver wrote on May 2nd, 2016 at 6:05pm:
Quote:
You haven't yet shown how the caliphate was less politically inclusive than Rome.


Except of course, for the whole election thing in Rome, and Islam being ideologically opposed to the rejection of Shariah law. It's kind of hard to have an inclusive political process with a predetermined outcome don't you think?


We've seen how the whole erection thing was done away with in Rome, which expanded its wealth. Sharia law does not prohibit erections. If it did, Sharia law could not coexist with elected parliaments, which it does in most Muslim countries.

But this is beside the point. You've failed to show how the Roman republic (with voting rights for some) was more inclusive than the caliphate.

You've also argued that "inclusiveness" has expanded in China without any real democratic reforms. Your argument here seems to be based around economic reforms, which I agree - without them, "inclusiveness" could not possibly occur.

An example of this is South Africa, who's democratic reforms were sweeping. Today, they're stuck with a corrupt, one party state, slums for the poor, and gated communities for the rich.

Democracy, I would argue, needs to fostered simultaneously with the development of an inclusive economy. Check out the Muslim kingdoms of Brunei and Saudi Arabia - socialist in their wealth distribution, but exclusive in their power distribution.

The most "inclusive" thing about Rome was not the vote in its assembly (when its citizens had this) but the bread rations.
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #42 - May 2nd, 2016 at 6:40pm
 
freediver wrote on May 2nd, 2016 at 6:29pm:
So Islam has no influence on the law in Muslim countries?



Depends on the country. Does religion have an influence on our laws here?
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #43 - May 2nd, 2016 at 7:03pm
 
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We've seen how the whole erection thing was done away with in Rome, which expanded its wealth.


Morris' index peaks at roughly the same time then starts going back down.

Quote:
Sharia law does not prohibit erections.


No, it just dictates what the outcome is, and permits you to slaughter people in order to get there, if democracy doesn't give you the proper result.

Quote:
You've failed to show how the Roman republic (with voting rights for some) was more inclusive than the caliphate.


Except of course for the elections, and shariah law. But please, tell me again how the elections don't count because Rome abandoned them then started to go downhill, and Islam has such a rich history of democracy.

Quote:
You've also argued that "inclusiveness" has expanded in China without any real democratic reforms. Your argument here seems to be based around economic reforms, which I agree - without them, "inclusiveness" could not possibly occur.


Here it is again: political and economic inclusiveness are self reinforcing (and reinforce each other) and create wealth. The opposite (oppression and exclusion) are also self reinforcing. Thus societies tend to drift towards one extreme and the middle ground is unstable. You don't necessarily need to have one before the other, but they will follow.

Quote:
An example of this is South Africa, who's democratic reforms were sweeping. Today, they're stuck with a corrupt, one party state, slums for the poor, and gated communities for the rich


Acemoglu goes into these in details. The institutions are very resilient. You can put elections on top, but it is still a dictatorship at heart. That is why he uses the terms political and economic inclusiveness rather than freedom, capitalism and democracy.

I suspect this is why the US insisted on rooting out the Baathists in Iraq, and why the French were a bit more successful at the game in continental Europe.
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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #44 - May 2nd, 2016 at 8:55pm
 
So let’s look at the causes of wealth in the Islamic "golden age". It had the bread basket of the Nile, but importantly, it held the silk road, the trading route between China and Europe. What political inclusivity did it adopt to allow for its rise as an empire that, as you say, surpassed the borders of Rome?

Was it erections? Why not?
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