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Who are the Conservatives? (Read 12980 times)
Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #150 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:36am
 
Stratos wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:33am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:28am:
If a tradition has been in place for hundreds, even thousands, of years, then obviously it has some value.



OK, this is completely dumb.  Especially while writing and reading, which for thousands of years was only the tradition of the elite.



Arh, the trendy Marxist critique: hold up some fanciful ideal of how we're all equal and then lambaste the unequal nature of the past. Yawn.
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ImSpartacus2
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #151 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:39am
 
Stratos wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:33am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:28am:
If a tradition has been in place for hundreds, even thousands, of years, then obviously it has some value.



OK, this is completely dumb.  Especially while writing and reading, which for thousands of years was only the tradition of the elite.

Especially when writing on a computer too, over the internet, which would definitely not have happened if you has stuck to the thousands year old tradition of writing on paper/vellum/ not a computer.

I agree with the quote on what a conservative is, and myself actually agree with it.  Change for change's sake is pointless.
Motherhood is a good thing too
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Stratos
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #152 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:40am
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:36am:
Stratos wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:33am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:28am:
If a tradition has been in place for hundreds, even thousands, of years, then obviously it has some value.



OK, this is completely dumb.  Especially while writing and reading, which for thousands of years was only the tradition of the elite.



Arh, the trendy Marxist critique: hold up some fanciful ideal of how we're all equal and then lambaste the unequal nature of the past. Yawn.


Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:36am:
Arh, the trendy Marxist critique: hold up some fanciful ideal of how we're all equal and then lambaste the unequal nature of the past. Yawn.


Are you seriously arguing that you don't like the fact that most people can read and write nowadays?
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Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 15th, 2014 at 11:24pm:
Thus killing those Canaanite babies while they were still innocent, was a particularly merciful act
 
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Soren
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #153 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 11:20am
 
Stand up for the real meaning of freedom
We need conservatism now more than ever


Roger Scruton 4 January 2014

...

Conservatives believe that our identities and values are formed through our relations with other people, and not through our relation with the state. The state is not an end but a means. Civil society is the end, and the state is the means to protect it. The social world emerges through free association, rooted in friendship and community life. And the customs and institutions that we cherish have grown from below, by the ‘invisible hand’ of co-operation. They have rarely been imposed from above by the work of politics, the role of which, for a conservative, is to reconcile our many aims, and not to dictate or control them.

Only in English-speaking countries do political parties describe themselves as ‘conservative’. Why is this? It is surely because English-speakers are heirs to a political system that has been built from below, by the free association of individuals and the workings of the common law. Hence we envisage politics as a means to conserve society rather than a means to impose or create it. From the French revolution to the European Union, continental government has conceived itself in ‘top-down’ terms, as an association of wise, powerful or expert figures, who are in the business of creating social order through regulation and dictated law. The common law does not impose order but grows from it. If government is necessary, in the conservative view, it is in order to resolve the conflicts that arise when things are, for whatever reason, unsettled.
....

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9106192/the-right-way/

That's the gist of it.
The difference is illustrated by, among other things, common law (in the English speaking world and Denmark) versus statute law of most other countries.

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Swagman
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #154 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 12:22pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:17am:
Yes, he's thinking of liberalism.
The conservatives and liberals have been bed fellows since 1945. So often the two get conflated.


Allied yes, but not the same.

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:06am:
I am anti privatisation and pro govt enterprise because I believe that in comparison private enterprise is less innovative, less efficient, produces shoddy goods and services, conducts itself far more destructively, is incredibly wasteful and unaccountable and often is highly dependent on govt welfare in the form of govt  handouts, lower tax rates and copious tax lurks.


You believe wrongly then.  Grin

Innovation, efficiency, quality of product & service are all born from competition.  If a business falls down on any one of these factors it will suffer financiallly.

Govt organisations don't (normally) have competition to worry about so they are naturally inefficient.  The exception would be war time when competition is replaced by necessity by the survival of the fittest.  The laziest of socialists may even chip in if their arse is on the line.

Quote:
is incredibly wasteful and unaccountable and often is highly dependent on govt welfare in the form of govt  handouts, lower tax rates and copious tax lurks


That's ridiculous, no business that is innovative, efficient and has quality products & services will require any govt assistance.

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:06am:
My view is that although you personally will spend your money much better than any Government will, businesses, especially since they're unaccountable to the rest of us, will always spend their money more wastefully then govts, only of course they can hide it better.


Business is accountable to its shareholders.  If it wastes money the shareholders pull out and the business fails.  A business will therefore be much more mindful of costs than any Govt organisation.

Quote:
I believe that in comparison private enterprise........conducts itself far more destructively,


Yes I'll give you that one.  Business won't really give a rat's what damage it does unless of course it effects its bottom line.

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:06am:
We want something, we have to work for it



Not socialists.  Somebody else works for it .
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ImSpartacus2
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #155 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 3:41pm
 
Swagman wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 12:22pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 10:17am:
Yes, he's thinking of liberalism.
The conservatives and liberals have been bed fellows since 1945. So often the two get conflated.


Allied yes, but not the same.

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:06am:
I am anti privatisation and pro govt enterprise because I believe that in comparison private enterprise is less innovative, less efficient, produces shoddy goods and services, conducts itself far more destructively, is incredibly wasteful and unaccountable and often is highly dependent on govt welfare in the form of govt  handouts, lower tax rates and copious tax lurks.


You believe wrongly then. 
Innovation, efficiency, quality of product & service are all born from competition.  If a business falls down on any one of these factors it will suffer financiallly.
Oh here we go.  You read that BS on the barn wall and so it must be right. "Four legs good, two legs baaahhhhhdd". Competition is incredibly wasteful and counter-productive. Why do you think the first thing they tell you when you join any business organisation is that "There is no I in team".  Because they know that co-operation and teamwork is what has made the human race so successful. 


Govt organisations don't (normally) have competition to worry about so they are naturally inefficient.  The exception would be war time
and space travel, sending people to the moon, inventing the internet, GPS, wifi, running schools, hospitals, building roads, dams for centuries. We could go on for ever
when competition is replaced by necessity by the survival of the fittest.  The laziest of socialists may even chip in if their arse is on the line.

Quote:
is incredibly wasteful and unaccountable and often is highly dependent on govt welfare in the form of govt  handouts, lower tax rates and copious tax lurks


That's ridiculous, no business that is innovative, efficient and has quality products & services will require any govt assistance.
Ohh that's crap. Business (big and small) is constantly on the take in this country. Ask your average PAYE tax payer what deductions he can claim each year compared to business (its scandalous) and that's not counting lower tax rates and the way they fiddle the GST, and fudging on their employee's pay and conditions


ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:06am:
My view is that although you personally will spend your money much better than any Government will, businesses, especially since they're unaccountable to the rest of us, will always spend their money more wastefully then govts, only of course they can hide it better.


Business is accountable to its shareholders. 
Oh this is the biggest furffy of them all.  As the sharholders association what they think of the BS claim.  Sharholders have very little power to pull their companies into line and its a constant source of complaint because the waste, the exorbitant executive salaries and the fraud goes on constantly and the shareholders can do little more then complain about it. 
If it wastes money the shareholders pull out and the business fails.  A business will therefore be much more mindful of costs than any Govt organisation.

Quote:
I believe that in comparison private enterprise........conducts itself far more destructively,


Yes I'll give you that one.  Business won't really give a rat's what damage it does unless of course it effects its bottom line.

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:06am:
We want something, we have to work for it
Im gakld we can agree on something



Not socialists.  Somebody else works for it .

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Soren
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #156 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:15pm
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 3:41pm:
Swagman wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 12:22pm:
[quote author=Time link=1388035852/147#147 date=1390177067]
Business is accountable to its shareholders. 
Oh this is the biggest furffy of them all.  As the sharholders association what they think of the BS claim.  Sharholders have very little power to pull their companies into line and its a constant source of complaint because the waste, the exorbitant executive salaries and the fraud goes on constantly and the shareholders can do little more then complain about it. 
If it wastes money the shareholders pull out and the business fails.  A business will therefore be much more mindful of costs than any Govt organisation.





I am curious as to why you addressed the opening sentence of that paragraph but not the explanation of it - which I have now highlighted for you to make it easier for you to address.

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ImSpartacus2
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #157 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:32pm
 
...
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« Last Edit: Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:40pm by ImSpartacus2 »  
 
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ImSpartacus2
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #158 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:39pm
 
.
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« Last Edit: Jan 20th, 2014 at 9:30pm by ImSpartacus2 »  
 
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ImSpartacus2
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #159 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:40pm
 
Soren wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:15pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 3:41pm:
Swagman wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 12:22pm:
[quote author=Time link=1388035852/147#147 date=1390177067]
Business is accountable to its shareholders. 
Oh this is the biggest furffy of them all.  As the sharholders association what they think of the BS claim.  Sharholders have very little power to pull their companies into line and its a constant source of complaint because the waste, the exorbitant executive salaries and the fraud goes on constantly and the shareholders can do little more then complain about it. 
If it wastes money the shareholders pull out and the business fails.  A business will therefore be much more mindful of costs than any Govt organisation.





I am curious as to why you addressed the opening sentence of that paragraph but not the explanation of it - which I have now highlighted for you to make it easier for you to address.

Because the explanation didn't add anything since shareholders have no real power to do anything about it. Its like saying why don't you leave Australia if you're power to vote doesn't influence what Aust Inc does.  All companies are the same and so you don't have anywhere to go.  Besides you can't just drop your shares and go. To get out of the company you have to sell your shares to someone else, so leaving just passes the powerlessness on to someone else equally powerless and so it goes on.  And companies are adept at hiding waste and fraud and justifying extortionist executive salaries. You see, what you may not appreciate is that public companies are as much in the business of selling shares (in which case they will use spin and hide inefficiencies and waste and fraud) as they are in the business of their declared enterprise.
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #160 - Jan 20th, 2014 at 7:25pm
 
St George of the Garden wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 8:01am:
Abbott is a narcissist.

Want to find some real conservatives? http://prospect.org/article/homeschool-apostates and see the damage conservatism does to people!

No he's not and his past actions have shown that...  you biased moronic hater.
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Soren
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Re: Who are the Conservatives?
Reply #161 - Jan 21st, 2014 at 5:17pm
 
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:40pm:
Soren wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 5:15pm:
ImSpartacus2 wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 3:41pm:
Swagman wrote on Jan 20th, 2014 at 12:22pm:
[quote author=Time link=1388035852/147#147 date=1390177067]
Business is accountable to its shareholders. 
Oh this is the biggest furffy of them all.  As the sharholders association what they think of the BS claim.  Sharholders have very little power to pull their companies into line and its a constant source of complaint because the waste, the exorbitant executive salaries and the fraud goes on constantly and the shareholders can do little more then complain about it. 
If it wastes money the shareholders pull out and the business fails.  A business will therefore be much more mindful of costs than any Govt organisation.





I am curious as to why you addressed the opening sentence of that paragraph but not the explanation of it - which I have now highlighted for you to make it easier for you to address.

Because the explanation didn't add anything since shareholders have no real power to do anything about it. Its like saying why don't you leave Australia if you're power to vote doesn't influence what Aust Inc does.  All companies are the same and so you don't have anywhere to go.  Besides you can't just drop your shares and go. To get out of the company you have to sell your shares to someone else, so leaving just passes the powerlessness on to someone else equally powerless and so it goes on.  And companies are adept at hiding waste and fraud and justifying extortionist executive salaries. You see, what you may not appreciate is that public companies are as much in the business of selling shares (in which case they will use spin and hide inefficiencies and waste and fraud) as they are in the business of their declared enterprise.   

You can do all the song and dance an 'hide the decline' you like but if the return on investment is not there, it's not there. You can cut your losses.

Not so with public sector companies. You, as taxpayer (ie shareholder) , cannot cut your losses or invest your taxes elsewhere.


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