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Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from (Read 40175 times)
Baronvonrort
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #75 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 4:02pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 3:21pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:52pm:
Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense?


amazingly enough jews live in Yemen to this day.


Did you pluck that from your ass gandalf?

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Jews


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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #76 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 4:24pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 4:02pm:
Did you pluck that from your ass gandalf?


from your wiki article:

Quote:
Several thousand Yemenite Jews stayed behind during Operation Magic Carpet and were left behind, many of them not wanting to leave sick or elderly relatives behind.


Quote:
Currently, there exists a small Jewish community in the town of Bayt Harash (2 km away from Raydah). They have a rabbi, a functioning synagogue and a mikveh. They also have a boys yeshiva and a girls seminary, funded by a Satmar affiliated Hasidic organization of Monsey, New York, USA.

A small Jewish enclave also exists in the town of Raydah, which lies approximately 45 mile north of Sana'a. The town hosts a yeshiva, also funded by a Satmar affiliated organization.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Yadda
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #77 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 5:15pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:55pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:20pm:
Are the christians still protected if they do not pay the Jizya, is paying the Jizya for protection like paying the Mafia for protection?


Do you think its fair for all members of society to pay tax?

Members of the islamic community all pay tax - as far as I know it is all equal. Its just that the non-muslim tax is called jizya. Muslims pay another tax.

I've never understood this argument.





THE ARGUMENT GOES.....

All members of a society should pay tax?

All members of the islamic community pay tax.

Non-moslems must pay a tax which is called Jiza.

While moslems pay a different tax.

Moslems argue [**] that social and societal discrimination [based upon a persons religion], is not discriminatory.

I've never understood this type of argument.








**
Most moslem morality arguments are [usually irrational or outright logically false, and ] those arguments are almost always made to disavow, or to deflect some obvious perception of injustice, on the part of a moslem/ISLAMIC stance on some issue.

But levying one particular tax upon moslems, but then levying an altogether different tax upon non-moslems [within a single society], is founded upon the undeniable egalitarian nature of ISLAM.             Tongue

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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freediver
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #78 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 7:00pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 3:21pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:52pm:
Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense?


My understanding is this included only the Hijaz. Jews however continued to live in Khaybar and Yemen - amazingly enough jews live in Yemen to this day. Christians continued to hang around the region too.


Are you saying that Muhammed only commanded the expulsion of non-Muslims from the Hijaz area, of that he only succeeded in cleansing the Hijaz area?

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:52pm:
Quote:
I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim.
www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/75


Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #79 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 8:02pm
 
Check the quote again - you'll find it wasn't a command. If indeed its even authentic. And besides, it wasn't something that was achieved during his lifetime.

Look at the Charter of Medina - not exactly a portent to expulsion is it? If the prophet did resolve to remove all non-muslims from the Hijaz, its only because his hand was forced. Non-muslims were certainly given every opportunity to live in peace with the muslims.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #80 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 8:25pm
 
Quote:
If indeed its even authentic.


Is it?

Quote:
And besides, it wasn't something that was achieved during his lifetime.


When was it achieved? And what was achieved?

Quote:
Look at the Charter of Medina - not exactly a portent to expulsion is it?


I hope you are not accusing Mo of renegging on his agreements? You know how the Arabs feel about that.

Quote:
If the prophet did resolve to remove all non-muslims from the Hijaz, its only because his hand was forced.


The scheming Jews again? Please explain for us how it wasn't the Muslim's fault they ethnically cleansed the area...

Quote:
Non-muslims were certainly given every opportunity to live in peace with the muslims.


Perhaps they wanted more than peace. Freedom and equality perhaps? Give 'em an inch and they take a mile eh?
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freediver
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #81 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 8:28pm
 
Gandalf, before we go too far down the path of ethnic cleansing, would you mind clarifying your position on collective punishment? Six pages in and I still have no clue where you stand. Are you still disagreeing on the definition of collective punishment (without actually saying what it is or should be)? Do you concede Muhammed engaged in collective punishment? When you say the context is important, are you saying the context justifies or excuses it?
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shockresist
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #82 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 8:46pm
 
Yadda wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 5:15pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:55pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:20pm:
Are the christians still protected if they do not pay the Jizya, is paying the Jizya for protection like paying the Mafia for protection?


Do you think its fair for all members of society to pay tax?

Members of the islamic community all pay tax - as far as I know it is all equal. Its just that the non-muslim tax is called jizya. Muslims pay another tax.

I've never understood this argument.





THE ARGUMENT GOES.....

All members of a society should pay tax?

All members of the islamic community pay tax.

Non-moslems must pay a tax which is called Jiza.

While moslems pay a different tax.

Moslems argue [**] that social and societal discrimination [based upon a persons religion], is not discriminatory.

I've never understood this type of argument.








**
Most moslem morality arguments are [usually irrational or outright logically false, and ] those arguments are almost always made to disavow, or to deflect some obvious perception of injustice, on the part of a moslem/ISLAMIC stance on some issue.

But levying one particular tax upon moslems, but then levying an altogether different tax upon non-moslems [within a single society], is founded upon the undeniable egalitarian nature of ISLAM.             Tongue



Your wrong, I think most members don't understand your arguments and your recycled posts.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #83 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 9:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 8:28pm:
Gandalf, before we go too far down the path of ethnic cleansing, would you mind clarifying your position on collective punishment? Six pages in and I still have no clue where you stand.


Thats because my position on collective punishment has no relevance to this thread - as explained many times. But if it matters to you so much, please feel free to call the expulsions collective punishment - you seem determined to do so anyway. But what I'm interested in is how this punishment came about, and whether it fits into an anti-semitic, religiously intolerant mold. Where a case can be made that the actions were purely about strategic defense, and power politics, and not anti-semitism - which the OP has made - where is the justification that islam is inherently intolerant of jews, and has a sinister anti-jew agenda - based on these events?

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 8:25pm:
I hope you are not accusing Mo of renegging on his agreements? You know how the Arabs feel about that.


Not at all. Cue your 'scheming jews' standard retort.

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 8:25pm:
The scheming Jews again? Please explain for us how it wasn't the Muslim's fault they ethnically cleansed the area...


There are plenty of historical accounts about the breakdown in relations between the muslims and the jews. I'm not aware of any that point to a sinister anti-jewish agenda that pre-planned an ethnic cleansing program.

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 8:25pm:
Perhaps they wanted more than peace. Freedom and equality perhaps? Give 'em an inch and they take a mile eh?


Read the covenant - they had freedom and equality.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #84 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 9:34pm
 
Quote:
Thats because my position on collective punishment has no relevance to this thread - as explained many times. But if it matters to you so much, please feel free to call the expulsions collective punishment - you seem determined to do so anyway.


I just see it as calling a spade a spade. Would you prefer I started a new thread to ask you what you think it is?

Quote:
There are plenty of historical accounts about the breakdown in relations between the muslims and the jews.


Does every single one of these historical accounts blame the Jews?

Quote:
I'm not aware of any that point to a sinister anti-jewish agenda that pre-planned an ethnic cleansing program.


Neither am I, seeing as it was about getting rid of all non-Muslims. It's hard to accuse them of being antisemitic when they were assholes to everyone.

Quote:
Read the covenant - they had freedom and equality.


Sounds pretty tenuous to me. How many Muslim tribes did Muhammed evict over bad behaviour or "deteriorating relations"? Though it was nice that Muhammed commanded them not to remove all the Christian's possessions from their homes and stash it in their own homes. I can see how they might otherwise have been a bit confused about that.
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #85 - Jul 13th, 2013 at 9:49pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 9:34pm:
Does every single one of these historical accounts blame the Jews?


Yeah, pretty much.

Try, if you can, to view this outside the prevailing "can't ever say anything negative about the jews" prism that we live in today. I know it can be hard, since it is so culturally entrenched. But it shouldn't make us intellectually dishonest about historical facts. If you have any valid evidence that these jewish tribes were victims of an anti-semitic agenda, by all means present it. I haven't seen any yet. All I see is political conflict between competing rival powers, which eventually came to a head. In the absense of evidence to the contrary, Muhammad should get the benefit of the doubt that he was sincere about his commitment to coexist peacefully with his non-muslim neighbours - until he was forced to change because of strategic-defensive concerns.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #86 - Jul 14th, 2013 at 5:03pm
 
I'm not going to try to stop people saying bad things about the Jews, but when Muslims blames the Jews for every single conflict between them, based on documentation by Muslims, while at the same time admitting that Muhammed engaged in collective punishment and ethnic cleansing, my bullsh1t detector starts ringing alarm bells.

Would you prefer I started a new thread to ask you about collective punishment?
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True Colours
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #87 - Jul 14th, 2013 at 7:45pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:52pm:
[quote]I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim.


Have to wonder why you didn't post the whole hadeeth. Is it because you wish to deceive?

Quote:
Umar narrated the Messenger of God said: "I (Umar) will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim."


Sounds like a prophesy.

A command would be more like: "...the Messenger of God said: I (Umar) must expel the Jews and Christians..." or "...the Messenger of God said: I (Umar) should expel the Jews and Christians..."
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« Last Edit: Jul 14th, 2013 at 8:50pm by True Colours »  
 
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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #88 - Jul 14th, 2013 at 8:24pm
 
What exactly are you accusing me of leaving out?

Are Muslims so mindlessly fatalistic that they would reject even Muhammed's ability to influence historical events?

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Re: Where the "collective punishment" meme comes from
Reply #89 - Jul 14th, 2013 at 8:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2013 at 8:24pm:
What exactly are you accusing me of leaving out?


You left out the part that Umar was speaking about a prophesy regarding himself. By leaving out who was narrating the hadeeth, how are people to know who was saying "I will"?
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