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Islam is a barrier to peace (Read 25239 times)
freediver
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #150 - May 28th, 2012 at 12:22pm
 
falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:06pm:
freediver wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 8:10am:
Perhaps you would feel better about it if you could give an example of a peace treaty that Muhammed entered into that he did not later break?



How about you give me an example of a treaty that he did break?


All of the ones I have heard about so far. I realise he always blamed the Jews, of course. Do I need to rephrase the question for you to be able to answer it, or would it be a pointless exercise anyway?

Soren, thanks for the details. They paint a very different picture to what Falah has been putting forward. Falah, if this is all in the Koran and Hadiths then surely you have no reason to cover them up or misrepresent them? You are not ashamed of them are you?

Perhaps it is time for you to explain the Islamic principle of Hudna, rather than constantly deflecting.
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« Last Edit: May 28th, 2012 at 12:30pm by freediver »  

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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #151 - May 28th, 2012 at 8:35pm
 
Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:20pm:
But, in fact, Muhammad was the first to violate the Treaty of Hudaibiya.  Even the Qur’an acknowledges this, which means any knowledgeable Muslim must as well.

The terms of the treaty specified that any Muslim who flees Mecca for Medina (where Muhammad resided) must be returned.  But when a group of Muslims did exactly that a few weeks after the treaty signing, Muhammad did not return all of them, but kept the women.  A verse from Allah arrived conveniently to justify his decision (60:10).


The group of Muslims, who were they Soren?

A group of male and female refugees. The males were returned as stipulated in the treaty.

The Muslims were commanded by God to give sanctuary to the female refugees.

The Muslims gave sanctuary to a small group of female refugees, and you believe that this somehow justifies the pagans then going out and committing a massacre?

Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:20pm:
As it turns out, Muslims were murdering Meccans after the treaty signing and prior to the revenge killings between the allied tribes!

Bukhari 50:891 tells of a man named Abu Basir who embraced Islam and then killed a Meccan.  Muhammad sends the man to live on the coast, where he forms a group of seventy Muslims who support themselves by attacking Meccan caravans.  According to the Hadith, he and the other Muslims “killed them and took their property.”  Muir words it as follows, “They waylaid every caravan from Mecca (for since the truce, traffic with Syria had again sprung up) and spared the life of no one.”


Soren you deceptively do not tell us the whole story. Abu Basir was one of the people being tortured by the pagans for converting to Islam. The pagans also stole his property. Abu Basir managed to escape from the pagans but Prophet Muhammed kept his promise as per the treaty and returned him to the pagan torturers.

Quote:
...When the Prophet returned to Medina, Abu Basir, a new Muslim convert from the Quraish tribe came to him. The pagans sent in his pursuit two men who said (to the Prophet ), "Abide by the promise you gave us." So, the Prophet handed him over to them. They took him out (of the City) till they reached Dhul-Hulaifa where they dismounted to eat some dates they had with them. Abu Basir said to one of them, "By God, O so-and-so, I see you have a fine sword!" The other drew it out (of the scabbard) and said, "By God, it is very fine and I have used it many times." Abu Basir said, "Let me have a look at it." When the other gave it to him, he hit him with it till he died, and his companion ran away till he came to Medina and entered the Mosque running. When God's Apostle saw him he said, "This man appears to have been frightened." When he reached the Prophet he said, "My companion has been murdered and I would have been murdered too." Abu Basir came and said, "O God's Apostle, by God, God has made you fulfill your obligations by your returning me to them (i.e. the pagans), but God has saved me from them." The Prophet said, "Woe to his mother! "You are a war-monger. I wish you could be helped." When Abu Basir heard that he understood that the Prophet would return him to them again, so he set off till he reached the seashore. Abu Jandal bin Suhail also escaped from them (i.e. pagans) and joined Abu Basir. So, whenever a man from the Quraish tribe embraced Islam he would follow Abu Basir till they formed a strong group. By God, whenever they heard about a caravan of Quraish tribe heading towards Sham (Syria), they stopped it and attacked and killed them (i.e. pagans) and took their properties. The people of the Quraish tribe sent a message to the Prophet requesting him for the Sake of God and Kith and kin to send for (i.e. Abu Basir and his companions) promising that whoever (amongst them) came to the Prophet would be secure. So the Prophet sent for them (i.e. Abu Basir's companions) and God I revealed the following Divine Verses: "And it is He Who Has withheld their hands from you and your hands From them in the midst of Mecca, After He made you the victorious over them. . . . the unbelievers had pride and haughtiness, in their hearts . . . the pride and haughtiness of the time of ignorance."

[Bukhari]



The Muslims were escaping from their torturers (the pagan Quraysh), but were not allowed into the Islamic state, so lived in exile. The Quraysh had stolen all the property of the Muslims, so the exiles felt justified in raiding caravans which contained their own property.


Soren wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 12:20pm:
"The Prophet said: 'War is deceit'." (Bukhari 52:269)




The deceipt allowed means to hide military tactics and strategies, it does not mean treachery.

For example, during a war a Muslim can conduct a raid on an enemy military camp during the night in order to surprise the enemy.

However, treachery is not allowed.

Islam has attained a high standard of ethics with regard to the use of these tricks in war. The second caliph, Umar ibn al-Khattaab threatened the death penalty for any Muslim who used treachery in war:

Quote:
‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab wrote to the commander of an army that he had sent out: “I have heard that some men among you look for disbelievers, then when they run to hide in difficult mountainous terrain they say, ‘Do not be afraid,’ then when they catch up with them they kill them. By the one in whose hand is my soul (eg. God), if I hear that anyone has done that I will chop off his head.”

It was narrated that Abu Muslimah said: “ ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: ‘By the One in Whose hand is my soul (eg. God), if any one of you were to point to the sky [i.e., a gesture to imply that he will not harm him] to make a pagan come down to him and then kill him, I would kill him for that.’”

al-‘Allaaqaat al-Khaarijiyyah fi Dawlat al-Khilaafah, 197.


Islam has forbidden treachery, and treachery is not one of the kinds of tricks and deception that are permitted in war.

Islamic law makes a distinction between the kinds of deceit that are permitted and that which involves treachery and breaks treaties.


In the West, leaders will even lie to their own people and say things like "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction".
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« Last Edit: May 28th, 2012 at 8:41pm by falah »  

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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #152 - May 28th, 2012 at 8:42pm
 
falah wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 8:35pm:
The Muslims were commanded by God to give sanctuary to the female refugees.

The Muslims gave sanctuary to a small group of female refugees



Yeah, we know what that means - rape. 



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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #153 - May 28th, 2012 at 9:48pm
 
Falah can you give one example of a peace treaty Muhammed made that he did not later break?

How does Muhammed's example inform Muslims on the principle of Hudna?
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #154 - May 29th, 2012 at 12:31am
 
Falah
The oldest source of knowledge that I know about regarding the 1066 massacre in Spain is from Maimonides the Jewish scholar. He was born in Spain in Cordoba 1135 (somewhat earlier than 1906) the family fled Almoravid Spain and he wrote of that time “never have the Jews been so persecuted” I suggest falah, that you do more reading on this subject .

“If you read the whole Wikipedia entry it says this of the dubious Jewish claims of a massacre:

Many articles are under threat from supposed “Muslim scholars”. Islam has very few historians and even less of note. The present day Islam revisionist agenda is trying to sugar coat all Muslim slaughters so that your murderous cult will appeal to even more of the mentally afflicted.

“The Church is used as propaganda by Christians. Ottoman historians said that the bones were collected from the battlefield and came from the 1300 Italian soldiers who took part in the battle.”

I would like to know the source of this lie. Turks have lied about the Armenian genocide for almost a century they have no credibility. Be honest though Falah you had no knowledge of this discusting act untill I told you and jan about it.

I believe a relation of George Bush was a missionary in part of the Turkish Empire when the Christians were annihilated, he wrote a book on the persecution of non-muslims. Why don’t you find it for us so that we can both learn about the lies of the Turks.  It is in the open source arena.

"That is obviously a pretty dodgy statement. It is well documented that Jews and Christians lived peacefully and prosperously in Islamic Spain."

No it is not please check it out. The Rocky Place is still a Rocky Place.

I am sorry that at present  I offer no further links to the truth, it is due to the pressure of work.
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #155 - May 29th, 2012 at 3:13am
 
falah wrote on May 27th, 2012 at 12:03pm:
freediver wrote on May 27th, 2012 at 11:28am:
OK, so that is the literal translation of the word. What about the Islamic concept of it? Is it true that Islam only sees such treaties as temporary?


Freeliar, treaties generally are temporary, in that parties are free to withdraw from them at any time.

States are usually free to pull out of treaties any time they wish.





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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #156 - May 29th, 2012 at 9:30am
 
freediver wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 9:48pm:
Falah can you give one example of a peace treaty Muhammed made that he did not later break?

How does Muhammed's example inform Muslims on the principle of Hudna?


What we learn is that Muslims uphold their side of agreements.




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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #157 - May 29th, 2012 at 11:56am
 
Falah, what do you think of Iran?

Would they be classed as a Muslim country?
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #158 - May 29th, 2012 at 12:08pm
 
Adamant wrote on May 29th, 2012 at 12:31am:
Many articles are under threat from supposed “Muslim scholars”. Islam has very few historians and even less of note. The present day Islam revisionist agenda is trying to sugar coat all Muslim slaughters so that your murderous cult will appeal to even more of the mentally afflicted.



This is a crucial point among a lot of important ones.


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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #159 - May 29th, 2012 at 12:22pm
 
falah wrote on May 29th, 2012 at 9:30am:
freediver wrote on May 28th, 2012 at 9:48pm:
Falah can you give one example of a peace treaty Muhammed made that he did not later break?

How does Muhammed's example inform Muslims on the principle of Hudna?


What we learn is that Muslims uphold their side of agreements.






That's funny, because it looks to me like they break every single one. The only thing that is consistent is their insistence on blaming the other party, regardless of circumstance.

Can you give one example of a peace treaty Muhammed made that he did not later break?

How does Muhammed's example inform Muslims on the principle of Hudna? Note that you did not actually answer this question.
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #160 - Jun 1st, 2012 at 2:59pm
 
Soren look at how the muslims are trying to change history.

Islam, Science and the Problems at Wikipedia From WikiIslam, the online resource on Islam

This article discusses the problems faced by Wikipedia with its Islam-related articles.

Contents
[hide]  1 Introduction
2 Wikipedia Report 2.1 Cause of Concern
2.2 The Islamic Golden Age
2.3 Western Achievements

3 Jagged 85 Returns
4 Other problems at Wikipedia
5 Conclusion
6 See Also
7 External Links
8 References


[edit] Introduction

At Wikipedia, Islam-related articles are severely compromised by Muslim editors. An example of this is a 2010 incident where an editor with over 67,000 edits was caught intentionally inserting false information into articles. Jagged 85 had been editing there for 5 years, and his/her inaccurate edits and articles have been reproduced all over the net by other websites which use Wikipedia as a source.

[edit] Wikipedia Report

[edit] Cause of Concern

The following is a quote from the report that was filed on him:

A summary of the above is that, despite repeated requests from other editors, this editor has continued over several years to: 1. Misrepresent a source by quoting material utterly out of context; for example, see [1] or [2].
2. Report that a source supports a claim that it simply does not and sometimes explicitly does not; for example, see [3], [4] or [5].
3. Claim that a certain figure invented something or was the first to do something, when the cited source simply says that they made or did that thing, without any suggestion that they were the first to do so; for example, see [6], [7], [8], [9], or [10].
4. Take a passing comment about some connection to a modern theory and claim that the Islamic thinker being discussed invented that theory or is an important forefather of that theory; for example, see [11] or [12].
5. Report only one point from a source, even if a minor one, and ignore the contrary position it reports, even if that is the majority position; for example, see [13].
6. Rather than withdraw a claim, if it is pointed out that the cited source does not support the claim, find a source of any quality to use instead, even when that may be of much lower quality than the original source, which made the opposite claim; for example, see [14].
7. Invent claims and cite sources connected with the issue but which simply do not support those claims; for example, see [15]

In addition to such misuse of sources, this editor has also continued to:
1. Use questionable, inappropriate and unreliable sources; for example, see [16] or [17].
2. Use exceptionally poor sources for exceptional claims; for example, see [18].

The links above are just a selection of the problematic edits collected at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85/Evidence, which contains more material gathered by myself and other editors. There are yet more examples collected by another editor at User:Spacepotato/Examples of original research in Wikipedia and User:Spacepotato/Misuse of sources.
Most of the material gathered is from the history of science and technology, as that is the area in which we have tended to work but I have also collected four problematic edits from just the seven days after 11 April 2010, and mostly from current affairs and general history articles, at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85/Recent evidence.

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85

[edit] The Islamic Golden Age

Jagged 85 concentrated most of his efforts on the history of science and technology, but more specifically, his efforts were focused on the so-called Islamic "Golden Age":

as I started perusing more history of science articles, I noticed that articles such as Astronomy in Medieval Islam, Science in medieval Islam, Islamic Golden Age, and many others were utter POV-fests, essentially claiming that all modern scientific discoveries were anticipated by medieval Muslim philosophers. Articles about these philosophers (e.g. Abu Rayhan Biruni, Avicenna) read like extended hagiographies. I also noticed that the main contributor to these articles was Jagged 85.

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85/ View by certifying user Athenean

I first came into detailed contact with Jagged's edits when I looked at Timeline of historic inventions in the fall of 2009 and noticed that many of the entries in the list were facially absurd; for example, the p-n junction was said to be invented by Isamu Akasaki in 1989, and the funnel was said to be invented between the 8th and 10th centuries CE by medieval alchemists. I then noticed that over 20% of the list had been contributed by Jagged, and that although his edits were well-supplied with footnotes, the sources he gave did not verify many of the claims made in the list. This was a problem with the rest of his work as well, which has been extensive (he has over 60,000 mainspace edits on en.wikipedia at this time, as alluded to above.) I would like to emphasize that, although this problem is very noticeable in the medieval Islamic period (as this is an area which Jagged has concentrated on), it's present elsewhere as well and has afflicted e.g. List of Japanese inventions.

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85/ View by certifying user Spacepotato

[edit] Western Achievements

Unfortunately, this users edits were not limited to only the Islamic portions of articles. A lot of his efforts were also concentrated on downplaying the achievements of the Western world in various topics, and once again, focused primarily on Science:

Jagged first came to my attention through edits such as these [19], where he sought to play up scientific contributions of non-European cultures while at the same time downplaying European, and especially ancient Greek contributions [20]. At the time, I was new to wikipedia, and moreover assumed good faith [...] Following his latest burst of activity on these articles beginning in December 2009, I scrutinized his track record more carefully and came to the following conclusion: This user is on a two-fold mission on wikipedia, the first of which is to promote scientific achievements on non-European cultures while downplaying and hedging those of European cultures, and the second of which is to promote a positive image of Islam, whether through scientific achievements or social reforms. In addition to competent editing, the following problematic methods are employed: 1. Misusing a source by either completely falsifying it or else extending it completely beyond what it says.
2. Using low quality POV sources.
3. Not giving page numbers when citing a source .
4. Tendentiously re-inserting material removed by consensus long ago without discussion using misleadingly bland edit-summaries, and then edit-warring over it.
5. Pasting the same text all over wikipedia, including articles where it is not really relevant.
6. Presenting minority views as majority views.

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85/ View by certifying user Athenean


[edit] Jagged 85 Returns

Following the original report, the user had apologized (claiming the inaccuracies were unintentional) and had agreed to adhere to Wikipedia rules, only to return without his old user-name to continue his vandalism:

Athenean, I'm afraid that the person behind Jagged_85 is actually still editing, albeit no longer with that account. It doesn't look like he is planning to clean his mess up. Like: Forced conversion
Rashidun Caliphate
Reciprocating engine
Bombay (film)
Mexican standoff
Can I leave this with you to touch base with the other users from the RfC/U to do the required follow-ups, and coordinate how this can be cleaned up?
FWIW, there is a tool used by the copyright violation cleanup people, the Contribution surveyor, that might be helpful here to create a list of articles and diffs that need to be looked at (like e.g. this). You could ask one of the regulars there to create it for you.
Amalthea 08:30, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Athenean - Jagged 85

[edit] Other problems at Wikipedia

Besides Jagged 85, other problems at Wikipedia include the use of some very suspect and pro-Islamic secondary sources, such as Paul Vallely's "How Islamic inventors changed the world", which is used as a source to validate false (and often absurd)[1] claims of Islamic inventions in over twenty separate articles,[2] and the use of a fraudulent translation of Muhammad's 'Farewell Sermon', along with a second version, without a primary source. Attempts to add the authentic version taken from al-Tabari, Vol IX, next to the other two at Wikipedia, were met with resistance and was ultimately unsuccessful.

[edit] Conclusion

From this incident we've learn't that Jagged 85 is the main contributor to the many inaccurate Islam/Science/Golden Age articles which are still being copied and pasted all over the internet by Muslims, and that more than 20% of Wikipedia's "Timeline of historic inventions" was provided by him.

With contributions to over 8,100 separate articles, it is unlikely that all of Jagged 85's edits will ever be fixed. And even if they were, these Wikipedia articles have already been reproduced all over the net by other sites which use Wikipedia as a source.

While Wikipedia can be a great resource for general knowledge and a decent starting point in the research of Islam, this and the other examples cited above, highlight the constant problems that Wikipedia faces for Islam related articles.

This page is featured in the core article, Islam and Propaganda which serves as a starting point for anyone wishing to learn more about this topic

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam,_Science_and_the_Problems_at_Wikipedia
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #161 - Jun 1st, 2012 at 6:18pm
 
Sounds just like Abu. The wikipedia article about the Salafi movement mentions attempts to rewrite history. Unfortunately I couldn't get a straight answer in that thread.
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #162 - Jun 1st, 2012 at 6:24pm
 
Yes well all this is very interesting but meaningless. Isn't it strange how god sits back giving directions as if he's making a movie or something. Do you really expect people to believe that god has a private chat with his deputy dawg where no one else can see  or hear it, no witnesses, and the mugs suck it down? More fool them. Religion is bunkum.
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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #163 - Jun 1st, 2012 at 6:27pm
 
bludger wrote on Jun 1st, 2012 at 6:24pm:
Yes well all this is very interesting but meaningless. Isn't it strange how god sits back giving directions as if he's making a movie or something. Do you really expect people to believe that god has a private chat with his deputy dawg where no one else can see  or hear it, no witnesses, and the mugs suck it down? More fool them. Religion is bunkum.


God told bush to invade iraq.

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Re: Islam is a barrier to peace
Reply #164 - Jun 4th, 2012 at 12:27pm
 
falah wrote on Jun 4th, 2012 at 10:07am:
freediver wrote on Jun 4th, 2012 at 8:13am:
...It even has calls for more violence between settlers and aborigines...

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1338172056


More lies Freeliar. You really can't help yourself can you?

It is good for people to see that the Islam-haters are liars.

Your stupidity harms your own cause.


Quotes from Falah:

Quote:
The thesis in its entirety demonstrates how interaction with Muslims saved the Arnhem Land Aboriginies from being genocided by European Christians like what happedned everywhere else in Australia.


Quote:
The Yolngu had seen white Dutch in their travels to Indonesia. They had been told to be wary of the whites, and knew they needed to resist them, and they knew how to deal with them.


Quote:
Indigenous people in northern coastal areas visited by Macassans were prepared to fight invaders from the earliest instances, unlike their Southern counterparts whose timidity often allowed European settlers to gain a strong foothold that made resistance more difficult.


How should we interpret this Falah? Would the southern aborigines have been better off if they knew about and used more violent strategies?
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