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Abbott Pledges to put country first? (Read 4438 times)
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #30 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:31pm
 
Yahoon wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:27pm:
... nowhere does it state that wireless can deliver the same performance as fibre.
...

Exactly. It gives reasons why it can't.
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deepthought
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #31 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:38pm
 
# wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:31pm:
Yahoon wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:27pm:
... nowhere does it state that wireless can deliver the same performance as fibre.
...

Exactly. It gives reasons that it can't.



You would be aware that consumers are abandoning fixed lines for wireless I assume.

So why would any organisation (let alone the taxpayers) build a network with a declining number of users?
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Yahoon
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #32 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:38pm
 
Roll Eyes

Nice try at a diversion from your strawman but I will humour your ignorance

It doesn't give any reasons why it is warranted, in fact it goes on to say that the existing technologies are more than adequate
Quote:
Re DSL technologies - yes, they will continue to get better - mostly
as a consequence of Moore's Law and the ability to throw more
processing capacity at the task of discerning signals against a noisy
background
.

Quote:
the latest VDSL2 chipsets can reliably deliver 80Mbps downstream and 20Mbps upstream over its cabling. That sort of bandwidth will satisfy most people for quite a while into the future.

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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #33 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:42pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 7:56pm:
...
Has it yet occured to you that the issue at play here isnt technological but financial? has it occured to you yet that delivering ADLS 2+ standard internet to 99% of the country wil cost 1/10th of this amount and stil provide 90% of the functionality. you simply REFUSE to address the cost/benefit issue because it fails dramatically at this point. why should we spend TEN TIMES as much money on a network that only provides marginal effective improvements on ADLS2+? try and generate a proper argument that addresses cost/befit if you can!

Better people than me have decided that it's worth doing. I haven't seen any compelling arguments to the contrary. Plenty of assertions, but nothing that could be considered an argument.

Yes, it's costly. Nation-building infrastructure's like that.

As for cost/benefit analysis, you'll need to find someone qualified in the field. That isn't me.

I'll be interested to hear what they come up with.
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Yahoon
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #34 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:45pm
 
Quote:
As for cost/benefit analysis, you'll need to find someone qualified in the field. That isn't me.

I'll be interested to hear what they come up with.


So would everyone. Labor is too ignorant to even visit that aspect
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #35 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:55pm
 
Yahoon wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:38pm:
Roll Eyes

Nice try at a diversion from your strawman but I will humour your ignorance

It doesn't give any reasons why it is warranted,
Your own strawman here. The question was about wireless. You've just done a switch to justifying the NBN. Naughty! Quote:
in fact it goes on to say that the existing technologies are more than adequate
Quote:
Re DSL technologies - yes, they will continue to get better - mostly
as a consequence of Moore's Law and the ability to throw more
processing capacity at the task of discerning signals against a noisy
background
.

Classic lie of omission. The full quote is:
Quote:
Re DSL technologies - yes, they will continue to get better - mostly
as a consequence of Moore's Law and the ability to throw more
processing capacity at the task of discerning signals against a noisy
background. However, the law of diminishing returns applies ... and
Shannon's Law is ultimately one of limitation, not exponential growth.

Copper will *never* compare to fibre in its capacity, and the key to
better performance lies in shortening copper distances - that is,
pushing fibre deeper into the network.


Quote:
the latest VDSL2 chipsets can reliably deliver 80Mbps downstream and 20Mbps upstream over its cabling. That sort of bandwidth will satisfy most people for quite a while into the future.

And again. If you're going to lie, at least choose a different lie. The paragraph following that reads:
Quote:
But with our trading partners moving to fibre, applications that
consume higher bandwidth *will* emerge and we will be caught short as
a nation if in the long term we don't have the infrastructure to
compete. I would contend that Australia needs a plan to evolve to
predominantly fibre infrastructure - not necessarily in a short a
timeframe as eight years, but certainly sometime over the next 20
years.

We might be able to delay the expense of the NBN, but not for long.

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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #36 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:06pm
 
deepthought wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:38pm:
# wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:31pm:
Yahoon wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:27pm:
... nowhere does it state that wireless can deliver the same performance as fibre.
...

Exactly. It gives reasons that it can't.



You would be aware that consumers are abandoning fixed lines for wireless I assume.

So why would any organisation (let alone the taxpayers) build a network with a declining number of users?

Who says fixed lines are declining? Sure, for those whose only need is voice communications, mobiles are adequate. For low bandwidth applications, wireless is handy. For high bandwidth applications, wireless just isn't in the game. It's unlikely most of us will ever be free of the need for a fixed line.

Why would we build a network?
Quote:
... with our trading partners moving to fibre, applications that
consume higher bandwidth *will* emerge and we will be caught short as
a nation if in the long term we don't have the infrastructure to
compete. I would contend that Australia needs a plan to evolve to
predominantly fibre infrastructure ...

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deepthought
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #37 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:08pm
 
Why, DavidB5, do you think the US is moving to wireless?

In fact the US President said this;


Quote:
"The Internet, as vital infrastructure, has become central to the daily economic life of almost every American by creating unprecedented opportunities for small businesses and individual entrepreneurs," the president wrote in a memorandum. "We are now beginning the next transformation in information technology: the wireless broadband revolution."



Why are you looking into the past while the world moves on to the next generation technology?
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #38 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:12pm
 
Quote:
Your own strawman here. The question was about wireless.

The only strawman was you saying that people were comparing fibre performance to wireless. It still stands and you have yet to prove otherwise, but continue making a fool of yourself.

Quote:
But with our trading partners moving to fibre, applications that
consume higher bandwidth *will* emerge

Will they emerge with other countries pursuing wireless? Will they also require a huge injection of public funds to emerge? What if they don't emerge and applications from more populous nations are based on the continuing and changing nature of wireless?

2 years ago it was inconceivable that wireless would hit 2Mb/s speeds, now Telstra has announced 42Mb/s wireless on existing infrastructure. You and you ignorant ilk base your assumptions on the the technology of today and fail to take into account the changing nature of tech, but your are happy to spend other peoples money getting what you want at a massive cost to the public.
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #39 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:13pm
 
deepthought wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:08pm:
Why, DavidB5, do you think the US is moving to wireless?

In fact the US President said this;


Quote:
"The Internet, as vital infrastructure, has become central to the daily economic life of almost every American by creating unprecedented opportunities for small businesses and individual entrepreneurs," the president wrote in a memorandum. "We are now beginning the next transformation in information technology: the wireless broadband revolution."



Why are you looking into the past while the world moves on to the next generation technology?

Anyone would think we're not subject to the laws of physics.
Quote:
Similarly, his faith in wireless is wildly optimistic. He does
acknowledge contention ratios, but nevertheless goes on to intimate
that 100Mbps performance could be a realistic customer expectation.
The spectrum required to deliver this to bandwidth hungry customers
in high-density urban areas just isn't available unless cell-sizes
are reduced to ridiculously small levels (a tower every few hundred
meters). Once again, he could do well to go back and study some basic
physics.

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deepthought
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #40 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:16pm
 
# wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:06pm:
Who says fixed lines are declining? Sure, for those whose only need is voice communications, mobiles are adequate. For low bandwidth applications, wireless is handy. For high bandwidth applications, wireless just isn't in the game. It's unlikely most of us will ever be free of the need for a fixed line.




The supplier.  Telstra.


Quote:
The profit announcement for the year to June 30 showed Telstra's fixed-line revenues fell $504 million, a drop of 8 per cent, and that 326,000 customers cancelled their fixed lines. This fall in the fixed-line business was offset somewhat by growth in revenue from mobile services, which increased 5.9 per cent.
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #41 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:20pm
 
Yahoon wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 7:41pm:
...
How many home computers do you see with a FO port? It's all ethernet or Wifi

Interesting point. I know people who've replaced the cat5e cabling in their home networks with cat6 for gigabit ethernet. The only reason they haven't gone for fibre is the cost of switches and NICs.

I guess the answer to your question is: none. Yet.
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deepthought
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #42 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:21pm
 
# wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:13pm:
deepthought wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:08pm:
Why, DavidB5, do you think the US is moving to wireless?

In fact the US President said this;


Quote:
"The Internet, as vital infrastructure, has become central to the daily economic life of almost every American by creating unprecedented opportunities for small businesses and individual entrepreneurs," the president wrote in a memorandum. "We are now beginning the next transformation in information technology: the wireless broadband revolution."



Why are you looking into the past while the world moves on to the next generation technology?

Anyone would think we're not subject to the laws of physics.
Quote:
Similarly, his faith in wireless is wildly optimistic. He does
acknowledge contention ratios, but nevertheless goes on to intimate
that 100Mbps performance could be a realistic customer expectation.
The spectrum required to deliver this to bandwidth hungry customers
in high-density urban areas just isn't available unless cell-sizes
are reduced to ridiculously small levels (a tower every few hundred
meters). Once again, he could do well to go back and study some basic
physics.




You're still fixated on the past.

Technology races.

What's more, new technology hardware is designed for mobility.   Not antiquated desktops.

Laptops now outsell desktops.

You dinosaurs need to ask yourselves why.
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longweekend58
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #43 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 10:37pm
 
# wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:42pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 7:56pm:
...
Has it yet occured to you that the issue at play here isnt technological but financial? has it occured to you yet that delivering ADLS 2+ standard internet to 99% of the country wil cost 1/10th of this amount and stil provide 90% of the functionality. you simply REFUSE to address the cost/benefit issue because it fails dramatically at this point. why should we spend TEN TIMES as much money on a network that only provides marginal effective improvements on ADLS2+? try and generate a proper argument that addresses cost/befit if you can!

Better people than me have decided that it's worth doing. I haven't seen any compelling arguments to the contrary. Plenty of assertions, but nothing that could be considered an argument.

Yes, it's costly. Nation-building infrastructure's like that.

As for cost/benefit analysis, you'll need to find someone qualified in the field. That isn't me.

I'll be interested to hear what they come up with.


You shoudlnt be WAITING to here. the cost/benefit analysis should have already been done. it is the height of fiscalirresponsibility to spend such a massive amount of money with no idea if it is viable or cost effective.

and you support this?

and I notice that on any issue you cant answer - you just deflect or ignore. It shows you dont know your subject at all.

Idiot.
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longweekend58
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Re: Abbott Pledges to put country first?
Reply #44 - Sep 5th, 2010 at 10:39pm
 
# wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 9:06pm:
deepthought wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:38pm:
# wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:31pm:
Yahoon wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 8:27pm:
... nowhere does it state that wireless can deliver the same performance as fibre.
...

Exactly. It gives reasons that it can't.



You would be aware that consumers are abandoning fixed lines for wireless I assume.

So why would any organisation (let alone the taxpayers) build a network with a declining number of users?

Who says fixed lines are declining? Sure, for those whose only need is voice communications, mobiles are adequate. For low bandwidth applications, wireless is handy. For high bandwidth applications, wireless just isn't in the game. It's unlikely most of us will ever be free of the need for a fixed line.

Why would we build a network?
Quote:
... with our trading partners moving to fibre, applications that
consume higher bandwidth *will* emerge and we will be caught short as
a nation if in the long term we don't have the infrastructure to
compete. I would contend that Australia needs a plan to evolve to
predominantly fibre infrastructure ...



well actually TESTRA says fixed lines are diminishing. and you woudl know that if you gleaned your information from places other thena the ALP website.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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