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Islam and Australian values (Read 37471 times)
Sprintcyclist
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #60 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 12:33am
 
Quote:
as I have said before,

the wahabis have had this "misinterperetation for many generations.
What's say the non-wahabis show them where they are wrong ?

Yes, it is that simple.

there are korans quotes that support that mindset
Just as a hyperthetical, what if the wahabis proved they were right, and you wrong ?
What would you do ?


It's a hypothetical which wont happen because they ARE wrong.

They have been shown that they are wrong, but they have this idea that if you disagree with them that you are not a Muslim and they can kill you.

So they did that in the middle east, alot..

They are crazy and the reason they are still in power and have influence is because the West supports their governments.

Stop supporting wahabis and you'll see an end to groups like Al Qaeda.




Unwilling to answer the hyperthetical in public ??
Their response is in keeping with the quotes I have given here.
Thanks for your vote malik, it follows on from your one of your previous comments that mohammad means the most in your life.
It follows from that that whatever he says, you would slavishly do.

If someone proves to you he said to hehead us infidels, you would do that.

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #61 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 12:35am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 12:33am:
Unwilling to answer the hyperthetical in public ??
Their response is in keeping with the quotes I have given here.
Thanks for your vote malik, it follows on from your one of your previous comments that mohammad means the most in your life.
It follows from that that whatever he says, you would slavishly do.

If someone proves to you he said to hehead us infidels, you would do that.


Sprint, what if Jesus said to kill all people who weren't Christian, would you do it? would you cut their heads off? Would you drink their blood if he told you to?

Answer that..
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #62 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 12:59am
 
Answer my question first
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #63 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 1:30am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 12:59am:
Answer my question first

haha, typical..

you again fail to judge your own religion by the standards you try and judge islam by.

so what will happen sprint, if jesus said to drink blood of non believers, if he ordered u to behead them?

would you do it?

well God ordered something similar in the old testament, to cut children into pieces and rip the wombs out of pregnant women killing them and their unborn children brutally..

You believe Jesus is God right? So then obviously according to your own beliefs it was Jesus who ordered that those babies be murdered..

so do you do any baby murdering sprint this weekend? you killing any pregnant ladies?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #64 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 8:56am
 
I think we have the happy circumstance of muslims being able to lie their head off for allah.
The convenient little code which tells them they only need to be honest to muslims, and with 90% calling the others "not real muslims", it seems they can pretty well crap on all day without any fear of damnation for being bald faced liars.

Malik has unconvincingly pushed the lie that sharia law does not call for the death penalty for apostates, are we merely getting the version of lie reserved for unbelievers??

I guess we will have to decide that for ourselves, because we could not rely on the response with any confidence.

Here is a little from a UK paper;
"Patrick Sookhdeo was born a Muslim, but later converted to Christianity. He is now international director of the Barnabas Fund, an organisation that aims to research and to ameliorate the conditions of Christians living in countries hostile to their religion.

He notes that "all four schools of Sunni law, as well as the Shia variety, call for the death penalty for apostates. Most Muslim scholars say that Muslim religious law - sharia - requires the death penalty for apostasy.

"In 2004, Prince Charles called a meeting of leading Muslims to discuss the issue," adds Dr Sookhdeo. "I was there. All the Muslim leaders at that meeting agreed that the penalty in sharia is death. The hope was that they would issue a public declaration repudiating that doctrine, but not one of them did."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571970/Muslim-apostates-threatened-over-Christianity.html
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #65 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:01am
 
Abu:

Islam forbids voting in democratic elections. Even though some Muslims do participate in this activity, it is generally out of ignorance.

Didn't either you or Malik say that they elected rulers in the Caliphate and that there were provisions for this in the Koran? How would Muslims establish a theocracy if not by force and not by democracy? How exactly should Muslims go about establishing a theocracy and a new Caliphate. How do they stop the inevitable - that power mongers who are not true to Islam try to usurp control?

Can you quote the bit from the Koran that forbids elections?

How about some things that are legal under Islam and illegal in Australia?
After all, isn't it meant to be a wiki entry about the differences between Australian and Islamic values? Or is it really just "Lets find all stuf about  Islam that we find barbaric or out of touch and post it here to mock Islam", if that's what you want to do, then make the title more relevant to what it is you're actually doing.


Sure, I would be interested in that, especially if it was an apparent conflict between Islam and Australian values. After all, I have already listed polygamy and sex with young girls.

My participation in this discussion is ceasing from this post, you are not even worth discussing this with.

That would be most unfortunate Abu. I feel that you have really enlightened many people about Islam and I want to give you the opportunity to explain it further. You contradicted Malik on a few issues so it will now be very hard to resolve them. This forum has really benefitted from having genuine Muslims here who can correct the misinterpretations of Islam put forward by people like sprint.

Malik:

Apostasy is not punishable by death, it will be punished in the next life by God.

Can you explain that Koran quote for us then? What does it really mean?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

How does Islam guard against this? Democracy is the only way I am aware of keeping rulers in line.



Does Islamic rule require a tax on non-Muslims?
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« Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:17am by freediver »  

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #66 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 1:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:01am:
Islam forbids voting in democratic elections. Even though some Muslims do participate in this activity, it is generally out of ignorance.

Didn't either you or Malik say that they elected rulers in the Caliphate and that there were provisions for this in the Koran? How would Muslims establish a theocracy if not by force and not by democracy? How exactly should Muslims go about establishing a theocracy and a new Caliphate. How do they stop the inevitable - that power mongers who are not true to Islam try to usurp control?

Can you quote the bit from the Koran that forbids elections?

That's a good point FD and you're correct, in history power mongers have usurped control, from the day the Prophet pbuh died this happened and people who shouldn't have been in charge became in charge, you see there is a difference of opinion on this issue. Some scholars say it's prohibited to vote in elections because your voting in a non muslim government, others say it's ok because you need the people who'll represent you best. In my opinion if you aren't willing to partake in democracy, you shouldn't live in one because you can't expect your government to be mind readers and cater for your needs if you don't get involved.

Also firstly that I said that if there were a referrendum on whether Australia should be an Islamic State or not I would vote for one? Well actually an election is different to a referrendum..

But an Islamic state can be set up in many ways, it can include elected officials too. I think that way is the best.

While Iran isn't an Islamic State proper they do have many aspects of an Islamic State, they also elect their prime ministers and presidents, the only people they don't elect is their Islamic leadership, the Islamic leadership is elected by a council of scholars, to ensure that they choose the person best suited to the role of guiding their congregation. But even the religious leadership is still bound by the Shariah.

Christian and Jewish leadership in the Islamic state is not appointed by the state, in fact they are chosen directly by the Christians and Jews themselves.

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:01am:
Malik:

Apostasy is not punishable by death, it will be punished in the next life by God.

Can you explain that Koran quote for us then? What does it really mean?

Which Qur'an quote was that? Can you paste it?

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:01am:
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

How does Islam guard against this? Democracy is the only way I am aware of keeping rulers in line.

Well actually, democracy isn't a protection from that at all either, many tyrants have been elected into government.. Look at all of the things George Bush has done after being elected, sometimes peoples apathy let democracy down.

In an Islamic State we have separation of powers the same as the west has (although we've had it for considerably longer). There were cases where people even took the caliphs to court over matters and won against the caliph. If the Caliph goes against the shariah and starts oppressing the people, they can be deposed by the courts and if the president goes against it and does similar they can be deposed by the courts and voted out by the people. 

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:01am:
Does Islamic rule require a tax on non-Muslims?

Yes, a small levy is imposed because Muslims are obligated to serve in the military and protect the citizens of the Islamic State, that includes non-Muslims.

Non Muslims however are not obligated to join the army, nor defend the nation in case of attack.

In the constitution of Medina it made it clear that non-Muslims who partook in defending the nation didn't have to pay the jizyah. But they weren't obligated to pay it.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #67 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm
 
In my opinion if you aren't willing to partake in democracy, you shouldn't live in one because you can't expect your government to be mind readers and cater for your needs if you don't get involved.

Is this your interpretation of the Koran, or the product of human reason?

Some scholars say it's prohibited to vote in elections because your voting in a non muslim government

Is that the extent of it? There is nothing against democracy in the Koran, just against voting for someone who isn't a muslim?

Also firstly that I said that if there were a referrendum on whether Australia should be an Islamic State or not I would vote for one? Well actually an election is different to a referrendum..

It is a vote. Would it make any difference whether you achieved your goals via election or referendum? What distinction are you trying to make?

But an Islamic state can be set up in many ways, it can include elected officials too. I think that way is the best.

Would you support any alternative mechanisms?

While Iran isn't an Islamic State proper they do have many aspects of an Islamic State, they also elect their prime ministers and presidents, the only people they don't elect is their Islamic leadership, the Islamic leadership is elected by a council of scholars, to ensure that they choose the person best suited to the role of guiding their congregation.

So in a proper Islamic state that Islamic leadership would run everything?

Which Qur'an quote was that? Can you paste it?

Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html#009.084.058

Well actually, democracy isn't a protection from that at all either, many tyrants have been elected into government..

It's the best protection available, provided it is coupled with things like separation of church and state, personal freedom, human rights etc.

In an Islamic State we have separation of powers the same as the west has (although we've had it for considerably longer). There were cases where people even took the caliphs to court over matters and won against the caliph. If the Caliph goes against the shariah and starts oppressing the people, they can be deposed by the courts and if the president goes against it and does similar they can be deposed by the courts and voted out by the people.

Who selects the Caliph, or president?

Yes, a small levy is imposed because Muslims are obligated to serve in the military and protect the citizens of the Islamic State, that includes non-Muslims.

Like in Israel, there is a compulsory period of military service? How do they decide how much the tax is?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #68 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 7:36pm
 
Against my better judgement I'm resuming posting in this thread...

Quote:
Didn't either you or Malik say that they elected rulers in the Caliphate and that there were provisions for this in the Koran?


Note that I said forbidden from partaking in democratic elections. As I mentioned earlier, democracy doesn't mean electing your leader, democracy means human beings legislating right and wrong from their own minds. As far as I'm aware the word "republic" describes the system by which the leader is popularly elected to represent the people. Islam has no problem with a republican model of electing a leader, but when it comes to human beings legislating, the Qur'an and hadith are quite clear.

"And whosoever does not rule by what Allah has revealed, such are disbelievers" (5:44)

Also from the hadith we have the story of Adi Bin Hatim (May God be pleased with him) who came upon a gathering around the Messenger of God (Pbuh) and heard him saying the Jews and Christians had stooped into polytheism. He interjected and noted that even though the Christians had done this, the Jews had not. So Muhammad (Pbuh) said that their Priests and Rabbis make right and wrong for them from their own minds, and the people follow it, and that is worship of them, instead of God.

Basically what it comes down is that one of God's 99 attributes/names according to Islam is Al-Haakim (The Legislator). And he is the sole being worthy of legislating, so anyone who competes with him in this matter is considered to be a false god, and anyone who subscribes to that legislation is a worshipper of a false god, ie. a polytheist.

That is why a Muslim is not permitted to partake in Democratic elections, whether in Australia or Makkah or in Timbuktu for that matter. Whether the party is the ALP or it is a so called "Islamic party". Democratic elections are a competition not simply for who will be ruler, but who will be legislator, Muslims are forbidden to elect a legislator, we may only elect a representative (Caliph) who will implement the legislation of the only true Legislator, God.

Quote:
How would Muslims establish a theocracy if not by force and not by democracy?


I suggest you read some Islamic history, and learn about how Muhammad (Pbuh) attained control over Yathrib (now known as Madinah), that is our example.

Quote:
How do they stop the inevitable - that power mongers who are not true to Islam try to usurp control?


There are institutions we must put into place to prevent such things, like the Majlis ash-Shura (Consultative Assembly), but in the end, nobody can guarantee they can prevent tyrants from taking control, it can seep into any system, as humans are imperfect beings.

Quote:
Sure, I would be interested in that, especially if it was an apparent conflict between Islam and Australian values. After all, I have already listed polygamy and sex with young girls


Why is it you seek only to promote conflict and hostility between Muslims and non-Muslims? Are you afraid that if we share our commonalities that you might be "seduced" by our teachings and duped into letting us overrun your state?

Quote:
This forum has really benefitted from having genuine Muslims here who can correct the misinterpretations of Islam put forward by people like sprint.


If you honestly value our input, why are you always so hostile towards Islam? Why can't you concede it would be only fair and balanced to also include commonalities in your wiki entry?

I'm not trying to claim it's all love and peace and living happily everafter, it's not. But there are many commonalities and things that can lead to cooperation and prosperity between Muslims and non-Muslims. All throughout the history of the Islamic Caliphate, Muslims and non-Muslims have cooperated and lived in harmony (not on every front, but in some way or another). Look for instance to the exchange between Harun ar-Rashid (May God be pleased with him) and Carlos Magnus (Charlemagne) and the prosperity and shared advancement in al-Andalus and Dar al-Hikmah in Baghdad, where wealthy Europeans used to send their children to be educated by the Muslims, and great scholars from both sides used to work together to translate and disperse knowledge.

Quote:
Can you explain that Koran quote for us then? What does it really mean?


It's a hadith, not a Qur'anic verse.

And it quite clearly (in Arabic anyway) states "If he abandons the nation/community", indicating it is for the crime of treachery against the state. Which is punishable by death in many "modern" states today.

Quote:
Does Islamic rule require a tax on non-Muslims?


It requires a tax on ALL citizens, as do almost all countries. The Muslim and non-Muslim taxes just have different names, one is called Zakaat, the other Jizyah. Both would probably be much lower than what you're getting taxed today, so living under Islam would be quite attractive to a lot of people today.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #69 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 8:20pm
 
Thanks for returning Abu.

I suggest you read some Islamic history, and learn about how Muhammad (Pbuh) attained control over Yathrib (now known as Madinah), that is our example.

Thanks, but I'd rather just ask you. You obviously know far more about it than I ever will.

So, Islam requires establishment of theocracy by conquest?

Why is it you seek only to promote conflict and hostility between Muslims and non-Muslims?

Look around this forum a bit. That is clearly not my intention. However, if I see genuine conflict between Islam and Australian values, I see no problem in pointing that out.

Are you afraid that if we share our commonalities that you might be "seduced" by our teachings and duped into letting us overrun your state?

No. I am afraid of the erosion of human rights, of separation of church and state, of religious discrimination, of tyranny etc. Whatever 'systems' you put in place, they will fall victim to tyrants. Christian societies learned this the hard way and it took a long time. It appears that Islamic societies have not yet learned this lesson. Then again, they do seem to be more burdened by a religion that rules out learning from history. I'm still not sure whether this is inherent to the religion, or just the way it is interpreted. The list is part of my attempt to understand this.

If you honestly value our input, why are you always so hostile towards Islam?

I am not always hostile towards Islam. I'll forgive your mistake seeing as you are fairly new here.

Why can't you concede it would be only fair and balanced to also include commonalities in your wiki entry?

It is an article about conflict. However, you are welcome to add a list of commonalities to it. I don't see much point though.

But there are many commonalities and things that can lead to cooperation and prosperity between Muslims and non-Muslims.

I'm not so sure about that. There are some things that are not negotiable, like democracy, separation of church and state, human rights etc. That is why I put the list together. Obviously I see some value in learning to get along, but there are some things which must not be sacrificed in order to achieve that. Furthermore, acknowledging fundamental conflicts between Islam and Australian values does not necessarily rule out cooperation and prosperity. We should not pretend these conflicts do not exist, because they are not going to simply go away. If Islam does prosper in Australia, people should be aware of everything it entails, and I suspect that local Muslims are not being entirely upfront about what Islam is. Sure Muslims get along OK as a minority, but a religion that requires theocracy should be judged by it's ultimate goal, not by what it will put up with while it has no influence. These issues have been misrepresented in the media, by mistaking what Muslims will tolerate with what they hope to one day achieve.

And it quite clearly (in Arabic anyway) states "If he abandons the nation/community", indicating it is for the crime of treachery against the state. Which is punishable by death in many "modern" states today.

So there is no penalty at all for apostasy?

The Muslim and non-Muslim taxes just have different names, one is called Zakaat, the other Jizyah.

Are they equal?

Both would probably be much lower than what you're getting taxed today, so living under Islam would be quite attractive to a lot of people today.

Our tax rates are determined democratically. In practice that means that the total tax burden represents something close to the median of what people want. You can't lower taxes without lowering services.

Does Islamic law stipulate how much tax people pay?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #70 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 9:57pm
 
Quote:
Thanks, but I'd rather just ask you. You obviously know far more about it than I ever will.


Well it's better if you get a proper account of it, rather than just my second hand account. If indeed you are sincere in wanting Muslims to contribute to the dialogue here, and are serious about getting even a rudimentary understanding of the political methodology of Islam to attain statehood, then you should at least skim a brief historical account.

You can find a very brief account here

And a full biography and historical record here (You can skip straight down to the section "The First ‘Aqabah Pledge")

Quote:
So, Islam requires establishment of theocracy by conquest?


I don't think that's a very logical supposition. You can't really conquer anything if you don't even have a homeland to begin from. You must work to establish a state before it can "expand by conquest".

Quote:
Whatever 'systems' you put in place, they will fall victim to tyrants


Actually our system is proven. It was implemented for over 1350 years straight, and very rarely did tyrants surface. In contrast the secular societies have seen the rise of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Hussein, Assad, Sharon, Bush etc. and the complete catastrophe that has resulted from only about 100-200 years of secular rule. There has been nothing but famine, world-wide war, nuclear obliteration of entire cities and their populations, chemical warfare etc. since the secular states began dominating global affairs.

Quote:
It appears that Islamic societies have not yet learned this lesson.


We never had a renaissance because we never needed one really. Our belief system doesn't suppress science and technology and advancement, it advocates and promotes them. The lessons weren't learned because the mistakes weren't made to begin with.

Quote:
It is an article about conflict. However, you are welcome to add a list of commonalities to it. I don't see much point though


I'm more concerned about why you're not interested in listing commonalities. After all the entry is entitled "Islam and Australian values" so shouldn't it show an all-round picture of that topic?

I'm not against contributing to it, I'm just dismayed you don't seem interested whatsoever in portraying both sides of the coin yourself.

Quote:
If Islam does prosper in Australia, people should be aware of everything it entails, and I suspect that local Muslims are not being entirely upfront about what Islam is


If? Hello! It's prospering! Islam is growing phenomenally in Autsralia. Hardly a week goes by that  I don't come across new converts to Islam some way or another. Either meeting them personally, or hearing about them or actually being an audience when they embrace it. The government may have slowed down immigration of Muslims into Australia, but they cannot stop the growth of Islam amongst Australians.

Some local Muslim groups, like the ones John Howard hand picked to represent us, are not upfront about Islam, agreed. But you'll find the vast majority of us are quite honest about our position and beliefs.

Quote:
but a religion that requires theocracy should be judged by it's ultimate goal, not by what it will put up with while it has no influence


Judaism also has a belief in a theocracy, and I'm sure there's members of Jewish groups here that call for a Halachic (their theocratic law system) state, so why aren't you as vocal about them? Not PC for you to do so? It's popular to confront the intentions of Muslims, but not popular to confront the intention of Jews?

Quote:
So there is no penalty at all for apostasy?


I didn't say that.

Quote:
Are they equal?


Of course they're not. As Malik pointed out, national service is also due upon Muslims.

Quote:
Does Islamic law stipulate how much tax people pay?


Of course it does. Not just individuals, states, companies etc. Islam has a complete governmental system, would you expect it not to have tax laws???

Sure you're used to thinking of religion in terms of Christianity only, but you must realise some other religions are much more than just personal rituals of worship.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #71 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 9:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
Is this your interpretation of the Koran, or the product of human reason?

That is my understanding of Islam, Muslims are not refugees here and haven't been forced out of their own lands but instead are citizens. As Muslims we are supposed to contribute positively in any society that we are in to make a positive difference. To be able to do that we need representation and to get involved in the system. If we are not doing that then it makes it impossible to really make a difference.

But there is a difference of opinion on this issue, as you can tell both Abu Rashid and myself have different views.

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
Some scholars say it's prohibited to vote in elections because your voting in a non muslim government

Is that the extent of it? There is nothing against democracy in the Koran, just against voting for someone who isn't a muslim?


It depends on how you define democracy FD, the word means the rule by the people. If you mean that the people make the legislation according to their own lusts and wants etc then that wont work in an Islamic State because the law is primarily decided by the Qur'an and Sunnah. Christians are bound by Christian law and Jews are bound by Jewish law.

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
It is a vote. Would it make any difference whether you achieved your goals via election or referendum? What distinction are you trying to make?

There is a difference, an election is choosing a particular party within the same system. A referrendum may change the system as a whole.

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
Would you support any alternative mechanisms?

Such as?

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
So in a proper Islamic state that Islamic leadership would run everything?

Not quite, the state runs according to Islamic law when it comes to policies such as economic policy, foreign policy and several others. However when it comes to laws for specific groups such as the Christians and Jews then the State cannot interfere unless it is found that either group fails to do justice or falls into oppression.

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html#009.084.058

That's actually a hadith FD. The hadith needs to have context to it, the situations Muhammad pbuh was referring to is when the person becomes hostile to the state and commits treason. Also I might add that not all Muslims believe that hadith books like Sahih Bukhari and Muslim are completely reliable.

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
Well actually, democracy isn't a protection from that at all either, many tyrants have been elected into government..

It's the best protection available, provided it is coupled with things like separation of church and state, personal freedom, human rights etc.

That's not quite true, the majority of the last century's most brutal men were elected in under a democracy. The majority of people might vote to imprison all Muslims in prison camps and that would be a democratic vote, but it would take away the Muslims human rights.

Just because people vote for it, it doesn't make it right.

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
In an Islamic State we have separation of powers the same as the west has (although we've had it for considerably longer). There were cases where people even took the caliphs to court over matters and won against the caliph. If the Caliph goes against the shariah and starts oppressing the people, they can be deposed by the courts and if the president goes against it and does similar they can be deposed by the courts and voted out by the people.

Who selects the Caliph, or president?

From my understanding the Islamic Leadership would be elected by a council and there would be a criteria for them to fulfil such as being from the Ahlul Bayt or descendents of the Prophet pbuh and be the best example of a Muslim there is. The president could be elected by the people but would have to be of good character sound judgement.

freediver wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 4:24pm:
Like in Israel, there is a compulsory period of military service? How do they decide how much the tax is?

Yes similar to Israel. However it can be done many ways, I would personally advocate a period of compulsory military service for all Muslim men, perhaps for 1-3 years and after that a reserve type service to help protect the nation if it come's under attack as all able bodied Muslim males have to fight against such a transgression.

Regarding how much would be taken out, as you mentioned, rates are determined by the needs of the state. The Christians and Jews wouldn't be the only people paying for the army though, Muslims pay too.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #72 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:18pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 9:57pm:
Actually our system is proven. It was implemented for over 1350 years straight, and very rarely did tyrants surface. In contrast the secular societies have seen the rise of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Hussein, Assad, Sharon, Bush etc. and the complete catastrophe that has resulted from only about 100-200 years of secular rule. There has been nothing but famine, world-wide war, nuclear obliteration of entire cities and their populations, chemical warfare etc. since the secular states began dominating global affairs.



That's correct. While we had very few tyrants it is nothing compared to the amount we acheived. Heck we even turned the Mongol hordes from ravaging hordes intent on only conquest and bloodshed to peaceful patrons of the fine arts, architecture, poetry etc after they converted to Islam.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #73 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:53pm
 
That's tight, another outstanding example of islam

"Five killed in Yemen blast  From correspondents in Sanaa | July 05, 2008
AT least five people were killed today in an explosion in central Saada, a town in northwest Yemen at the heart of a Shiite revolt, a witness said.

The witness, asking not to be named, said the blast near Saada's post office also left a number of people wounded. Rescue services evacuated the casualties as security forces sealed off the site.

Yemen's Saada province in mountains on the border with Saudi Arabia has been the heartland of an uprising launched by Zaidi Shiite rebels in 2004 in which thousands of people have died.

The two sides signed a Qatari-brokered peace deal in June last year but there has been repeated wrangling about its implementation.

The insurgents are known as Huthis after their late commander, Hussein Badr Eddin al-Huthi, who was killed by the army in September 2004. He was succeeded as field commander by his brother Abdul Malak. "

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23975153-12377,00.html



outstanding, no, more typical.


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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #74 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:58pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:53pm:
That's tight, another outstanding example of islam

"Five killed in Yemen blast  From correspondents in Sanaa | July 05, 2008
AT least five people were killed today in an explosion in central Saada, a town in northwest Yemen at the heart of a Shiite revolt, a witness said.

The witness, asking not to be named, said the blast near Saada's post office also left a number of people wounded. Rescue services evacuated the casualties as security forces sealed off the site.

Yemen's Saada province in mountains on the border with Saudi Arabia has been the heartland of an uprising launched by Zaidi Shiite rebels in 2004 in which thousands of people have died.

The two sides signed a Qatari-brokered peace deal in June last year but there has been repeated wrangling about its implementation.

The insurgents are known as Huthis after their late commander, Hussein Badr Eddin al-Huthi, who was killed by the army in September 2004. He was succeeded as field commander by his brother Abdul Malak. "

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23975153-12377,00.html



outstanding, no, more typical.



trolllllllllllllllllll..

sprint those aren't islamic values.

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