Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop
in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.
Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day
at a rapid rate especially in China and India.

Anything we do is purely symbolic.


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-percent-new-coal-power-investment



Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80%
of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report.

Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that
China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam
plan to build more than 600 coal power units,
even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt  the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.


https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a797e41aeb524.jpg

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am:

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world. Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day at a rapid rate especially in China and India. Anything we do is purely symbolic. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-percent-new-coal-power-investment Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80% of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report. Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam plan to build more than 600 coal power units, even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants

This is literal bullshit on more than one level.  Renewables are inevitable, cheaper, and the next growth industry.  We can't control other countries, but we control what we do.  Our coal exports make us one of the biggest countries creating climate emissions

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:34am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels. The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that it will make a measurable difference. The Greens are liars. Now with Albo's minority Govt  the Greens will have Albo over a barrel. https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a797e41aeb524.jpg

Imagine being so stupid, you think 'the best coal in the world' is a sentence with real meaning

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:50am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 9:34am: The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels. The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that it will make a measurable difference. The Greens are liars. Now with Albo's minority Govt  the Greens will have Albo over a barrel. https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a797e41aeb524.jpg Imagine being so stupid, you think 'the best coal in the world' is a sentence with real meaning

We have Anthracite coal - do you even know what that is?

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:49am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 9:33am: Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world. Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day at a rapid rate especially in China and India. Anything we do is purely symbolic. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-percent-new-coal-power-investment Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80% of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report. Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam plan to build more than 600 coal power units, even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants This is literal bullshit on more than one level.  Renewables are inevitable, cheaper, and the next growth industry.  We can't control other countries, but we control what we do.  Our coal exports make us one of the biggest countries creating climate emissions

Except that if we don't export it we'll be a very poor country
and other countries will burn far worse poor quality coal.

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:54am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 9:49am: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 9:33am: Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world. Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day at a rapid rate especially in China and India. Anything we do is purely symbolic. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-percent-new-coal-power-investment Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80% of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report. Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam plan to build more than 600 coal power units, even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants This is literal bullshit on more than one level.  Renewables are inevitable, cheaper, and the next growth industry.  We can't control other countries, but we control what we do.  Our coal exports make us one of the biggest countries creating climate emissions Except that if we don't export it we'll be a very poor country and other countries will burn far worse poor quality coal.

Imagine thinking it's an economy to sell off chunks of the country....

Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power.
If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it them may accept it.

Gordon wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:01am:

Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power. If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it they may accept it.

What about waiting for Thorium power?

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150#150

Gordon wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:01am:

Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power. If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it them may accept it.

Nuclear is dirty and not needed

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:14am:

Gordon wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 10:01am: Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power. If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it them may accept it. Nuclear is dirty and not needed

Nuclear waste takes too long to decay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste

Some common nuclear waste half lives:

Plutonium 239 half life      24,110 years.
Americium 241 half life          432 years
Radium 226     Half life      1,600  years
Uranium 236  Half life   15 million years.
Plutonium 244 Half life   80 million years
Uranium 235  Half life  704 million years
Uranium 238 half life      4.5 billion years

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 10:19am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 10:14am: Gordon wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 10:01am: Lets hope Labor embrace nuclear power. If Liberal tried it the left would spaz out so if their own team did it them may accept it. Nuclear is dirty and not needed Nuclear waste takes too long to decay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste Some common nuclear waste half lives: Plutonium 239 half life      24,110 years. Americium 241 half life          432 years Radium 226     Half life      1,600  years Uranium 236  Half life   15 million years. Plutonium 244 Half life   80 million years Uranium 235  Half life  704 million years Uranium 238 half life      4.5 billion years

Those numbers look similar to my estimate of when Liberals might win power again...

So - FutureTheLeftWant -

how does it feel that the party you support has policies based on a fallacy?

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:11am:

So - FutureTheLeftWant - how does it feel that the party you support has policies based on a fallacy?

My God the right cry a lot.

What policies do you mean?

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:33am:

Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world.

it's that sort of stupidity that saw the libs annihilated last night.

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:14am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 11:11am: So - FutureTheLeftWant - how does it feel that the party you support has policies based on a fallacy? My God the right cry a lot. What policies do you mean?

Now you're playing silly buggers -
read the first 2 posts.

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:22am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 11:14am: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 11:11am: So - FutureTheLeftWant - how does it feel that the party you support has policies based on a fallacy? My God the right cry a lot. What policies do you mean? Now you're playing silly buggers - read the first 2 posts.

Greens want to limit use of coal.  What are you talking about?

The Greens in Germany voted to clear a large part of  Reinhardswald "Grimms Fairytale Forest" for a massive wind farm. It has met large resistance.

And in reality back to coal. Because they can't get enough gas and their renewables aren't capable.

lee wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:15pm:

The Greens in Germany voted to clear a large part of  Reinhardswald "Grimms Fairytale Forest" for a massive wind farm. It has met large resistance.

The EU (especially Germany)  of course should be engineering the Sahara to supply renewables to the EU.

Including off-shore wind and batteries,   France has sufficient nuclear power to back the EU grid at night.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:22pm:

The EU (especially Germany)  of course should be engineering the Sahara to supply renewables to the EU.

Yet another numpty who believes every problem has an engineering solution. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 12:22pm:

France has sufficient nuclear power to back the EU grid at night.

France is going to build more nuclear. ;)

John Smith wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:16am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 9:33am: Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world. it's that sort of stupidity that saw the libs annihilated last night.

So tell us how much we have to increase CO2 emissions to reach "Net Zero"?

We are a carbon sink. Even The Conversation agrees -

"So while our ecosystems have remained a net sink over the last 20 years, it’s worth asking:"

https://theconversation.com/in-20-years-of-studying-how-ecosystems-absorb-carbon-heres-why-were-worried-about-a-tipping-point-of-collapse-179554

https://greens.org.au/platform/climate


The Greens plan includes:

    Immediately ban the construction of new coal, oil and gas infrastructure, ensuring we can transition our economy to zero carbon energy while maintaining a safe climate

    Help out mining workers and communities by creating long term, sustainable industries to assist in the move beyond fossil fuels and to ensure people do not lose work

    Phase out the mining, burning and export of thermal coal by 2030 to ensure we do our bit, so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff

Quote:

so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff

Fact check - it's a fallacy -

Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make
no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature.
The damage is not being done here in Australia.
It's countries like China and India that need to do something.

China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam
plan to build more than 600 coal power units.

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:20pm:

Quote: so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff Fact check - it's a fallacy - Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature. The damage is not being done here in Australia. It's countries like China and India that need to do something.

Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby?

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:20pm: Quote: so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff Fact check - it's a fallacy - Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature. The damage is not being done here in Australia. It's countries like China and India that need to do something. Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby?

What for?

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:25pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:23pm: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:20pm: Quote: so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff Fact check - it's a fallacy - Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature. The damage is not being done here in Australia. It's countries like China and India that need to do something. Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby? What for?

To leave the country.

Anthony Albanese is your Prime Minister   :)

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:26pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:25pm: greggerypeccary wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:23pm: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:20pm: Quote: so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff Fact check - it's a fallacy - Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature. The damage is not being done here in Australia. It's countries like China and India that need to do something. Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby? What for? To leave the country. Anthony Albanese is your Prime Minister   :)

I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account
for their climate policies based on a fallacy.

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:31pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:26pm: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:25pm: greggerypeccary wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:23pm: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:20pm: Quote: so the world does not go over the 1.5 degree climate cliff Fact check - it's a fallacy - Even if we shut down everything in Australia it would make no measurable difference to that 1.5 degree temperature. The damage is not being done here in Australia. It's countries like China and India that need to do something. Have you packed a suitcase, Bobby? What for? To leave the country. Anthony Albanese is your Prime Minister   :) I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account for their climate policies based on a fallacy.

Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay?

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:31pm: I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account for their climate policies based on a fallacy. Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay?

What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense
which won't make a scrap of difference in the world.
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

The only possible answer is what has been discussed on this forum
and that is a new age of Thorium nuclear power.
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150

Unfortunately they can't seem to iron out the technical problems fast enough.

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:41pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:34pm: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:31pm: I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account for their climate policies based on a fallacy. Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay? What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense which won't make a scrap of difference in the world. It won't stop: the fires

Well, no.

The only way to stop the fires is to knock out the Jewish space lasers.

Have they released any policies dealing with that?

Maybe they should consult with Perjury Traitor Greene.

https://assets.entrepreneur.com/content/3x2/2000/1632845023-GettyImages-1170719020.jpg

John Smith wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 11:16am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 9:33am: Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world. it's that sort of stupidity that saw the libs annihilated last night.

then stop exporting the sh.t altogether is the answer ;)

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:31pm: I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account for their climate policies based on a fallacy. Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay?

What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense
which won't make a scrap of difference in the world.
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

The only possible answer is what has been discussed on this forum
and that is a new age of Thorium nuclear power.
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150

Unfortunately they can't seem to iron out the technical problems fast enough.

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 7:30am:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:34pm: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:31pm: I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account for their climate policies based on a fallacy. Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay? What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense which won't make a scrap of difference in the world. It won't stop: the fires, the mass coral bleaching, the floods or the sea level rise or stop increasing global temperatures. The only possible answer is what has been discussed on this forum and that is a new age of Thorium nuclear power. https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150 Unfortunately they can't seem to iron out the technical problems fast enough.

Solar and wind are the cheapest ways to generate power today

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 7:35am:

Solar and wind are the cheapest ways to generate power today

That's true and at least it's here now and not a promised technology
which never seems to eventuate.

Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income -
Alan Jones



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmfv28xgosE

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:45am:

Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income - Alan Jones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmfv28xgosE

This guy is a stupid front bottom and a liar LOL!!!

Conservative Right Wing Greens do not support the radical left wing Greens who now incorporate 'violent' measures.

Jasin wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:54am:

Conservative Right Wing Greens do not support the radical left wing Greens who now incorporate 'violent' measures.

You will need to explain what the bugger you're talking about....

The right are always violence.  Right wing violence has been a constant in my life for a decade.

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:46am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 8:45am: Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income - Alan Jones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmfv28xgosE This guy is a stupid front bottom and a liar LOL!!!

No he's not - we are about to lose $379b of export income
if the Greens get their way.

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:06am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 8:46am: Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 8:45am: Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income - Alan Jones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmfv28xgosE This guy is a stupid front bottom and a liar LOL!!! No he's not - we are about to lose $379b of export income if the Greens get their way.

You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:07am:

You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet

The Greens have reckless ideas all based on a fallacy.

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:10am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:07am: You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet The Greens have reckless ideas all based on a fallacy.

Yes, science is scary to old people

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:12am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:10am: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:07am: You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet The Greens have reckless ideas all based on a fallacy. Yes, science is scary to old people

You are an intellectual midget -

you've failed to counter any point that I've made.

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:10am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:07am: You seem at least mildly dense.... no money on a dead planet The Greens have reckless ideas all based on a fallacy.

The "right" have ALWAYS claimed climate change is a "fallacy"
The electorate is not  buying it - as we saw on Saturday

The only environmental, sustainable, renewable window dressing the Coal-ition have ever shown was to try and grab a few votes



..

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:23am:

You are an intellectual midget - you've failed to counter any point that I've made.

Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever.  Read a book.

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 8:46am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 8:45am: Greens want to dismantle $379b of export income - Alan Jones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmfv28xgosE This guy is a stupid front bottom and a liar LOL!!!

... and the one who famously boasted on QANDA that as a friend and political adviser to John Howard,told him that it doesn't matter if you lie - if it gets you elected



.

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 3:41pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:34pm: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 3:31pm: I need to stay here to hold Albo and his Greens buddies to account for their climate policies based on a fallacy. Be sure to let me know how that works out for you, okay? What they've done is feed people feel good nonsense. which won't make a scrap of difference in the world.

People are very susceptible to 'feel good nonsense' because there is a cost of living crisis, owing to the current failing economic orthodoxy based on private financiers funding government, and false theories of inflation and interest rates. 


Quote:

It won't stop: the fires, the mass coral bleaching, the floods or the sea level rise or stop increasing global temperatures. The only possible answer is what has been discussed on this forum and that is a new age of Thorium nuclear power. https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1519823686/150

Yes,  free unlimited energy, but private financiers would still insist on keeping the profits for themselves, even though the energy could be mostly free (since it's unlimited).   


Quote:

Unfortunately they can't seem to iron out the technical problems fast enough.

But they COULD roll out massive solar and wind globally NOW, with current nuclear probably sufficient for back up. 

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2022 at 9:54am:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 9:49am: Bobby. wrote on May 22nd, 2022 at 9:33am: Whatever we do on carbon emissions it's only a drop in the ocean compared to the rest of the world. Coal fired power stations are being built 24 hours a day at a rapid rate especially in China and India. Anything we do is purely symbolic. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/30/five-asian-countries-80-percent-new-coal-power-investment Five Asian countries are jeopardising global climate ambitions by investing in 80% of the world’s planned new coal plants, according to a report. Carbon Tracker, a financial thinktank, has found that China, India, Indonesia, Japan and Vietnam plan to build more than 600 coal power units, even though renewable energy is cheaper than most new coal plants This is literal bullshit on more than one level.  Renewables are inevitable, cheaper, and the next growth industry.  We can't control other countries, but we control what we do.  Our coal exports make us one of the biggest countries creating climate emissions Except that if we don't export it we'll be a very poor country and other countries will burn far worse poor quality coal.

Some of these Asian countries have similar arguments. where without coal power their people will have no light power employment etc.

We should be slowly winding down coal mining and winding down coal export even quicker.

2010 would have been a good target date.

At one time Australia was a world leader but successive Liberal governments have turned us into another group dragging its feet.

We could have been in a position to be selling clean power technology to the world instead we are still an embarrassment on the fringe of the do nothing or less brigade.

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 9:27am:

Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:23am: You are an intellectual midget - you've failed to counter any point that I've made. Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever.  Read a book.

I'm still waiting for you - try again -

if we closed down Australia now:
It won't stop:
the fires,
the mass coral bleaching,
the floods or
the sea level rise or
stop increasing global temperatures.

Whatever we do is a drop in the ocean compared
to countries like China and India.

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:06pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:27am: Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:23am: You are an intellectual midget - you've failed to counter any point that I've made. Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever.  Read a book. I'm still waiting for you - try again - if we closed down Australia now: It won't stop: the fires, the mass coral bleaching, the floods or the sea level rise or stop increasing global temperatures. Whatever we do is a drop in the ocean compared to countries like China and India.

This remains an argument for no one to do anything

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:12pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 2:06pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:27am: Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:23am: You are an intellectual midget - you've failed to counter any point that I've made. Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever.  Read a book. I'm still waiting for you - try again - if we closed down Australia now: It won't stop: the fires, the mass coral bleaching, the floods or the sea level rise or stop increasing global temperatures. Whatever we do is a drop in the ocean compared to countries like China and India. This remains an argument for no one to do anything

It would be great if we could go 100% renewable but
only as a symbolic gesture to the rest of the world.
We could stand tall knowing that we had done the right thing
but countries like China and India would not change their ways.
They have refused to stop building coal fired power stations.
They are building more 24 hours a day.

However - China and India are making the most serious
effort to design the first full scale Thorium nuclear reactors.
That would be cheap, unlimited, safe, Green power.
I wish them well with that.
If they don't succeed we're all in trouble.
The Yanks had a small research molten salt reactor in the mid 1970s
but they closed it down.

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 2:12pm: Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 2:06pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:27am: Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 9:23am: You are an intellectual midget - you've failed to counter any point that I've made. Did you think you raised real points? LOL!! I've heard this tired bullshit forever.  Read a book. I'm still waiting for you - try again - if we closed down Australia now: It won't stop: the fires, the mass coral bleaching, the floods or the sea level rise or stop increasing global temperatures. Whatever we do is a drop in the ocean compared to countries like China and India. This remains an argument for no one to do anything It would be great if we could go 100% renewable but only as a symbolic gesture to the rest of the world. We could stand tall knowing that we had done the right thing but countries like China and India would not change their ways. They have refused to stop building coal fired power stations. They are building more 24 hours a day. However - China and India are making the most serious effort to design the first full scale Thorium nuclear reactors. That would be cheap, unlimited, safe, Green power. I wish them well with that. If they don't succeed we're all in trouble. The Yanks had a small research molten salt reactor in the mid 1970s but they closed it down.

China is using coal as a bridging technology, yes

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:23pm:

China is using coal as a bridging technology, yes

A bridge too far?  ;)

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:06pm:

if we closed down Australia now: It won't stop: the fires, the mass coral bleaching, the floods or the sea level rise or stop increasing global temperatures.

A. no one is talking about closing down Australia
B. Do something now, and your grandkids might see the result, do nothing and 'wait for china', and your grandkids will still be having the same argument but from inside oxygen tents

tell me goober, do you not mow your lawn if your neighbour doesn't mow his?

John Smith wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 5:32pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 2:06pm: if we closed down Australia now: It won't stop: the fires, the mass coral bleaching, the floods or the sea level rise or stop increasing global temperatures. A. no one is talking about closing down Australia B. Do something now, and your grandkids might see the result, do nothing and 'wait for china', and your grandkids will still be having the same argument but from inside oxygen tents tell me goober, do you not mow your lawn if your neighbour doesn't mow his?

John,
you know you're not allowed to post in the Environment forum?

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1612043899

.

---

This link shows different numbers:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/859266/number-of-coal-power-plants-by-country/

1,110 in China.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of-the-worlds-new-coal-power-plants/


China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants

Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China
Environment 26 April 2022

By Adam Vaughan


Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants.

Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year.

Bobby. wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 11:48pm:

.

My God, she triggers boomers.

"Swedish Greens struggle in Greta’s shadow "

https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-greens-struggle-greta-thunberg-shadow/

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 12:10am:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of-the-worlds-new-coal-power-plants/ China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China Environment 26 April 2022 By Adam Vaughan Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants. Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year.

Among a population with av. GDP per capita c.$5000 (probably less, on average)

So, the rich world has to step up. How much are you prepared to instruct your government  to assist poor nations in Africa and Asia ? 

lee wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 4:19pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23rd, 2022 at 2:23pm: China is using coal as a bridging technology, yes A bridge too far?  ;)

Well, Chinese GDP per capita is just c.$10,000 - still below middle income status, despite lifting a billion people out of absolute poverty at the fastest rate in history, since 1990.   China has every right to continue that projectory.

And Chinese  emission per capita are a fifth of the US.

So if you insist on forcing the Chinese to rely on their own resources,  you can't complain about them continuing to employ coal as a bridge technology, while they transition to nuclear and renewables  (planned to be completed by 2060). 

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 24th, 2022 at 12:10am: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of-the-worlds-new-coal-power-plants/ China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China Environment 26 April 2022 By Adam Vaughan Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants. Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year. Among a population with av. GDP per capita c.$5000 (probably less, on average) So, the rich world has to step up. How much are you prepared to instruct your government  to assist poor nations in Africa and Asia ?

China is the 2nd or even the 1st richest nation in the world.
We're a nation in massive debt.

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24th, 2022 at 10:23pm: Bobby. wrote on May 24th, 2022 at 12:10am: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of-the-worlds-new-coal-power-plants/ China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China Environment 26 April 2022 By Adam Vaughan Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants. Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year. Among a population with av. GDP per capita c.$5000 (probably less, on average) So, the rich world has to step up. How much are you prepared to instruct your government  to assist poor nations in Africa and Asia ?  China is the 2nd or even the 1st richest nation in the world. We're a nation in massive debt.

You don't understand per capita wealth, cf  GDP.

While China - with a $15 trillion economy-  can afford to put a rover on Mars, unlike Oz whose GDP is simply not large enough, China cannot afford to go green as fast as Oz, because a green transition  requires every citizen to be moderately wealthy if the nation is to be able to fund the transition to produce sufficient green energy for every citizen.

Do the math: a billion people transitioning to green costs 40 times as much to transition as 25 million people to transition, ie the Chinese GDP would have to be 40 times more than Oz's GDP. - c. $60 trillion (40 times $1.5 trillion).     

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 12:01am:

You don't understand per capita wealth, cf  GDP. While China - with a $15 trillion economy-  can afford to put a rover on Mars, unlike Oz whose GDP is simply not large enough, China cannot afford to go green as fast as Oz, because a green transition  requires every citizen to be moderately wealthy if the nation is to be able to fund the transition to produce sufficient green energy for every citizen. Do the math: a billion people transitioning to green costs 40 times as much to transition as 25 million people to transition, ie the Chinese GDP would have to be 40 times more than Oz's GDP. - c. $60 trillion (40 times $1.5 trillion).

Don't be an apologist for the worst polluting country on Earth.

Bobby. wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 12:11am:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 12:01am: You don't understand per capita wealth, cf  GDP. While China - with a $15 trillion economy-  can afford to put a rover on Mars, unlike Oz whose GDP is simply not large enough, China cannot afford to go green as fast as Oz, because a green transition  requires every citizen to be moderately wealthy if the nation is to be able to fund the transition to produce sufficient green energy for every citizen. Do the math: a billion people transitioning to green costs 40 times as much to transition as 25 million people to transition, ie the Chinese GDP would have to be 40 times more than Oz's GDP. - c. $60 trillion (40 times $1.5 trillion).      Don't be an apologist for the worst polluting country on Earth.

Stop accusing China of not doing enough, when Australians - who are 5 times as wealthy as Chinese per capita - emit 5 times as much CO2 per capita as Chinese.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

And Chinese  emission per capita are a fifth of the US.

The old per capita schlock. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Total emissions are supposed to be the problem. If it is only per capita we can stand back and let China catch up.  ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

So if you insist on forcing the Chinese to rely on their own resources,  you can't complain about them continuing to employ coal as a bridge technology, while they transition to nuclear and renewables  (planned to be completed by 2060).

Who's complaining? Plants love CO2. They grow best when fed up to 1500ppm. At 180ppm they tend to die.

https://climate.nasa.gov/rails/active_storage/blobs/eyJfcmFpbHMiOnsibWVzc2FnZSI6IkJBaHBBZ0VvIiwiZXhwIjpudWxsLCJwdXIiOiJibG9iX2lkIn19--1cae6e9b6f88ccf66489771069b2b33ed2487ad5/change_in_leaf_area-768px.jpg

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:07pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24th, 2022 at 10:36pm: And Chinese  emission per capita are a fifth of the US. The old per capita schlock. ;D ;D ;D ;D Total emissions are supposed to be the problem. If it is only per capita we can stand back and let China catch up.  ::)

The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure.  That measures the overall direction of society instead of skewing for demographics. 

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:10pm:

The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure.

Nope. Total CO2 emissions are the best because we can see which countries are the biggest emitters.

So therefore it can't be "the only way". ::)

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 1:10pm: The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure. Nope. Total CO2 emissions are the best because we can see which countries are the biggest emitters. So therefore it can't be "the only way". ::)

Total emissions clearly matter, but if China has 30 times the people as Australia and creates twice the pollution, they are clearly doing more about pollution than we are

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:21pm:

Total emissions clearly matter, but if China has 30 times the people as Australia and creates twice the pollution, they are clearly doing more about pollution than we are

Wow. that was deep - NOT. Larger power plants are more efficient than smaller ones.

The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding.

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:39pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 1:21pm: Total emissions clearly matter, but if China has 30 times the people as Australia and creates twice the pollution, they are clearly doing more about pollution than we are Wow. that was deep - NOT. Larger power plants are more efficient than smaller ones. The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding.

Scrubbers.  LOL!!!

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:41pm:

Scrubbers.  LOL!!!

Oh dear. Thinking of your wife again?

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:00pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 1:41pm: Scrubbers.  LOL!!! Oh dear. Thinking of your wife again?

All 'clean coal' technology is bullshit

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:39pm:

The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding.

Why is that?

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:12pm:

lee wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 1:39pm: The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding. Why is that?

Because banks won't fund investing in dead technology

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:18pm:

Because banks won't fund investing in dead technology

And yet coal plants are still being built in India, China and elsewhere. They can be built with scrubbers etc far more easily than retrofit.

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:24pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 2:18pm: Because banks won't fund investing in dead technology And yet coal plants are still being built in India, China and elsewhere. They can be built with scrubbers etc far more easily than retrofit.

Yes, they have different banks. Duh.

Scrubbers are still bullshit

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

Yes, they have different banks. Duh.

And so don't rely on the IMF, World Bank. Thank you. ;)


FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

Scrubbers are still bullshit

From one who knows bullsh!t. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

"Reality: Scrubbers are very efficient air pollution control devices, and can remove greater than 95 percent of the SO2 from power plant stack emissions. … In fact, SO2 removal efficiencies often are as high as 98 percent to 99 percent. Scrubbers with advanced designs routinely meet targeted efficiencies of 95 percent."

https://kfs-solutions.com/application/how-do-coal-power-plant-scrubbers-work.html

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 3:43pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 2:30pm: Yes, they have different banks. Duh. And so don't rely on the IMF, World Bank. Thank you. ;) FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 2:30pm: Scrubbers are still bullshit From one who knows bullsh!t. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D "Reality: Scrubbers are very efficient air pollution control devices, and can remove greater than 95 percent of the SO2 from power plant stack emissions. … In fact, SO2 removal efficiencies often are as high as 98 percent to 99 percent. Scrubbers with advanced designs routinely meet targeted efficiencies of 95 percent." https://kfs-solutions.com/application/how-do-coal-power-plant-scrubbers-work.html

The actual issue is that the right are literal human garbage LOL!!!

;D
FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 4:00pm:

The actual issue is that the right are literal human garbage LOL!!!

Oh good comeback. ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 4:35pm:

;D FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 4:00pm: The actual issue is that the right are literal human garbage LOL!!! Oh good comeback. ;D ;D ;D ;D

It just gets boring TBH.  You add nothing.

You haven't for the entirety; but don't be too disheartened.

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 3:43pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 2:30pm: Yes, they have different banks. Duh. And so don't rely on the IMF, World Bank. Thank you. ;)

This is your answer to my question, why don't (eg, Indian) banks fund "clean" coal.

Fact is India is not rich enough to fund either "clean" coal, or renewables with storage and inter-connectors. 


Quote:

"Reality: Scrubbers are very efficient air pollution control devices, and can remove greater than 95 percent of the SO2 from power plant stack emissions. … In fact, SO2 removal efficiencies often are as high as 98 percent to 99 percent. Scrubbers with advanced designs routinely meet targeted efficiencies of 95 percent." https://kfs-solutions.com/application/how-do-coal-power-plant-scrubbers-work.html

Yes, so how much should the rich world pay the 3rd world to install scrubbers on their existing fleet. 

Yet SO2 is only one of many health hazards from burning  coal, apart from the coal ash disposal problem. 

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 1:10pm: The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure. Nope. Total CO2 emissions are the best because we can see which countries are the biggest emitters. So therefore it can't be "the only way". ::)

rubbish. Using total is always going to go bad for the countries with higher populations.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 5:58pm:

This is your answer to my question, why don't (eg, Indian) banks fund "clean" coal. Fact is India is not rich enough to fund either "clean" coal, or renewables with storage and inter-connectors.

And yet they are doing so. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 5:58pm:

Yet SO2 is only one of many health hazards from burning  coal, apart from the coal ash disposal problem.

Oh dear. Failure to do your research again.

"Coal-fired electricity generation is cleaner than ever. NETL’s research shows that a new coal plant with pollution controls reduces nitrogen oxides by 83 percent, sulfur dioxide by 98 percent, and particulate matter by 99.8 percent compared to plants without controls."

https://kfs-solutions.com/application/frequent-question-what-is-coal-scrubbing.html

John Smith wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 6:03pm:

rubbish. Using total is always going to go bad for the countries with higher populations.

I'm not the one wailing about CO2 emissions. And CO2 emissions is total.

Try researching small counties and small populations.

Eg Australia - large country, small population - large transport distances.

Germany population 84 million or 3.5 times ours. Area 357,000 sq km  slightly larger than Victoria and Tasmania combined.

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 6:12pm:

John Smith wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 6:03pm: rubbish. Using total is always going to go bad for the countries with higher populations. I'm not the one wailing about CO2 emissions. And CO2 emissions is total.

Most of the  rest of the  world IS wailing about CO2 emissions.


Quote:

Try researching small counties and small populations.

Irrelevant, if CO2 emissions are the problem.

You don't get a free pass just because the Oz pop is 25 million (in a country as big as China) 


Quote:

Eg Australia - large country, small population - large transport distances.

But George St. in Sydney is still a  health hazard, given the clapped out diesel trucks  traversing it.


Quote:

Germany population 84 million or 3.5 times ours. Area 357,000 sq km  slightly larger than Victoria and Tasmania combined.

Irrelevant on BOTH counts as shown above, whether CO2 or hazardous chemicals from filthy fossil combustion. 

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 6:11pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 5:58pm: This is your answer to my question, why don't (eg, Indian) banks fund "clean" coal. Fact is India is not rich enough to fund either "clean" coal, or renewables with storage and inter-connectors.  And yet they are doing so. ;)

No they are burning 'dirty coal', and poisoning  localities with coal ash.


Quote:

Oh dear. Failure to do your research again. "Coal-fired electricity generation is cleaner than ever. NETL’s research shows that a new coal plant with pollution controls reduces nitrogen oxides by 83 percent, sulfur dioxide by 98 percent, and particulate matter by 99.8 percent compared to plants without controls." https://kfs-solutions.com/application/frequent-question-what-is-coal-scrubbing.html

[/quote]

And how many of India's coal plants meet those standards?

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:36pm:

No they are burning 'dirty coal', and poisoning  localities with coal ash.

What exactly don't you understand about NEW cola plants? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:36pm:

And how many of India's coal plants meet those standards?

The NEW ones. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

Most of the  rest of the  world IS wailing about CO2 emissions.

ost

Define MOST.

"Climate Change At Bottom Of List Of Worries For German Households, Comprehensive 8-Year Survey Shows"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH6UABh3Xck&t=341s

(in German)

or

https://notrickszone.com/2022/05/21/climate-change-at-bottom-of-list-of-worries-for-german-households-comprehensive-8-year-survey-shows/


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

Irrelevant, if CO2 emissions are the problem.

And you still haven't made the case for CO2 wotdunnit. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

But George St. in Sydney is still a  health hazard, given the clapped out diesel trucks  traversing it.

You haven't even got something for PM2.5. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 8:31pm:

Irrelevant on BOTH counts as shown above, whether CO2 or hazardous chemicals from filthy fossil combustion.

see above

Just your normal screech with no evidence. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:03pm:

And you still haven't made the case for CO2 wotdunnit. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I did.  You merely cried

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:05pm:

I did.  You merely cried

Where petal? Be specific. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 4:00pm:

The actual issue is that the right are literal human garbage LOL!!!

Was that your big hit? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:22pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 9:05pm: I did.  You merely cried Where petal? Be specific. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Read the thread, you ran from my questions and cried bullshit.

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:03pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 8:36pm: No they are burning 'dirty coal', and poisoning  localities with coal ash. What exactly don't you understand about NEW cola plants? ::)

I understand they are a small proportion of India's coal fleet.


Quote:

The NEW ones. ::)

exceeded by the old ones, same as Oz. 


Quote:

Define MOST.

Er... 2/3 of Oz who didn't vote for the coalition.


Quote:

"Climate Change At Bottom Of List Of Worries For German Households, Comprehensive 8-Year Survey Shows" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH6UABh3Xck&t=341s (in German) or https://notrickszone.com/2022/05/21/climate-change-at-bottom-of-list-of-worries-for-german-households-comprehensive-8-year-survey-shows/

Obsolete. Germans are currently concerned with replacing Russian fossils.


Quote:

And you still haven't made the case for CO2 wotdunnit. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'll leave that up to the climate scientists who claim the AGW theory is correct, and the 2/3 of the Oz pop. who want action on climate change. 



Quote:

You haven't even got something for PM2.5. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Now you are just behaving like the tobacco apologists in the 1970's; inhaling nicotine fumes and  fossil fumes are both hazardous to health.



Quote:

see above

refuted above.


Quote:

Just your normal screech with no evidence. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

So said the tobacco apologists.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

I understand they are a small proportion of India's coal fleet.

Have you any evidence NONE of the old ones have been done?


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

exceeded by the old ones, same as Oz.

Nope. There are no new ones in Oz. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

Er... 2/3 of Oz who didn't vote for the coalition.

Labor lost votes, the Coalition lost votes. Australia doesn't make up MOST of the world's population. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

Obsolete. Germans are currently concerned with replacing Russian fossils.

Nope. Dated 21 May 2022. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

I'll leave that up to the climate scientists who claim the AGW theory is correct, and the 2/3 of the Oz pop. who want action on climate change.

So you only want those who agree with you. ;D ;D ;D ;D

The green vote is probably most of those new voters who don't have STEM subjects either. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

Now you are just behaving like the tobacco apologists in the 1970's; inhaling nicotine fumes and  fossil fumes are both hazardous to health.

So you haven't found that elusive paper yet. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

refuted above.

You refuted nothing. Assertions aren't even close to rumour level. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:40pm:

So said the tobacco apologists.

And still no evidence from you. Thegreatdivide - the evidence free zone. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Edit: PM2.5 has been around since 1997. And still not one recorded death.

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 9:53pm:

Have you any evidence NONE of the old ones have been done?

https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/india-can-save-1-2-billion-a-year-by-shutting-old-coal-plants-study-121072700297_1.html

India can save $1.2 billion a year by shutting old coal plants: Study

(Aint google great?) ...but India won't, because it can't afford the increase in electricity prices required to fund the retro fitting.   



Quote:

Nope. There are no new ones in Oz. ::)

Soon would have been, if Scomo had won.


Quote:

Labor lost votes, the Coalition lost votes. Australia doesn't make up MOST of the world's population. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Yet most of the world wants transition to renewables, resisted by the fossil pirates.   


Quote:

Nope. Dated 21 May 2022. ::)

So, obviously renewables have been swamped by immediate concerns relating to Russian fossil supplies.

Unlike Oz.


Quote:

So you only want those who agree with you. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Biden wants 60 senators to agree with him, to stop the slaughter of innocents in the US. Sometimes agreement is a life and death issue, as with AGW (whether toxic or CO2 emissions related)


Quote:

The green vote is probably most of those new voters who don't have STEM subjects either. ;)

Greedy fossil pirates are digging their own grave; the young know the economy is not working for them.


Quote:

So you haven't found that elusive paper yet. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Tobacco is just about ostracized, fossils are next.


Quote:

You refuted nothing. Assertions aren't even close to rumour level. ;D ;D ;D ;D

rumour?  when it comes to eliminating  tobacco and filthy fossil, rumour is enough, apparently. 


Quote:

And still no evidence from you. Thegreatdivide - the evidence free zone. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Edit: PM2.5 has been around since 1997. And still not one recorded death.

Obviously governments have proscribed a profitable industry for ...no good reason....

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

India can save $1.2 billion a year by shutting old coal plants: Study

And nothing to do with retrofitted scrubbers.  ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Soon would have been, if Scomo had won.

So you admit you were wrong AGAIN. And they would have had scrubbers.


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Yet most of the world wants transition to renewables, resisted by the fossil pirates.

You have made this claim multiple times and never produced one study that says so. Why is that? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

So, obviously renewables have been swamped by immediate concerns relating to Russian fossil supplies.

Is that all. Nothing about how they have invested so much in renewables and they signally failed to deliver? Remember that wind drought over UK and Europe? Weather dependent renewables.




thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Sometimes agreement is a life and death issue, as with AGW (whether toxic or CO2 emissions related)

Biden is already responsible for increasing prices, what more do you want him to do?


And yet you haven't provided any proof.

.
thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Greedy fossil pirates are digging their own grave; the young know the economy is not working for them.

Ok. Once we finish with fossil fuels - How do we maintain furnaces for iron and aluminium. They need constant heat. It is very expensive to clean solidified pipes.

So we have no iron and steel, no aluminium but they can all sit on the ground - get paid sit down money and the world will continue. All those fossil fuel products - over 6000 that won't be available for manufacture. And then of course there is the building of semi-conductors - very intensive in energy use. All the remaining industry will go to China. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Tobacco is just about ostracized, fossils are next.

They haven't found ANY evidence of PM2.5 deaths. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

rumour?  when it comes to eliminating  tobacco and filthy fossil, rumour is enough, apparently.

There you go again conflating two different issues. Tobacco has been FOUND to cause health problems. So that is NOT rumour. However as there is no EVIDENCE of PM2.5 deaths that is rumour. :o


thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

Obviously governments have proscribed a profitable industry for ...no good reason....

Really which industry is so proscribed? Which country has proscribed it? The fossil fuel industry continues. I think the word proscribed does not mean what you think it means.

lee wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 12:18pm:

Is that all. Nothing about how they have invested so much in renewables and they signally failed to deliver? Remember that wind drought over UK and Europe? Weather dependent renewables.

The problem in the EU - and even more so in Oz - is the wasted decade from 2010 on. Wasted because deniers like you and fossil profit-extractors have blocked a timely investment in renewables: the Sahara should be powering the EU by now, likewise solar in Oz deserts. 



Quote:

Biden is already responsible for increasing prices, what more do you want him to do?

I want that f-twit Manchin to stop blocking Biden's GND.
And as for costs, the currency-issuing government can always subsidize costs.


Quote:

Ok. Once we finish with fossil fuels - How do we maintain furnaces for iron and aluminium. They need constant heat. It is very expensive to clean solidified pipes.

ore refining  will be powered by  green hydrogen. 


Quote:

So we have no iron and steel, no aluminium but they can all sit on the ground - get paid sit down money and the world will continue. All those fossil fuel products - over 6000 that won't be available for manufacture. And then of course there is the building of semi-conductors - very intensive in energy use. All the remaining industry will go to China. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Of dear, not only a denier, but complete lack of vision as well. Let those who know how to decarbonize the economy get on with it.


Quote:

They haven't found ANY evidence of PM2.5 deaths. ;)

You still smoking and coughing? It might not kill you, but it will ruin your health. ditto for fossil filth in congested urban areas. 


Quote:

There you go again conflating two different issues. Tobacco has been FOUND to cause health problems. So that is NOT rumour. However as there is no EVIDENCE of PM2.5 deaths that is rumour. :o

.... ideological blindness on display: you going to volunteer to live in a fossil-polluted urban environment, when authorities have recognized the health hazards for decades (eg lead poisoning) and demanded vehicle anti-pollution  devices.


Quote:

Really which industry is so proscribed?

tobacco and fossil fuels.


Quote:

Which country has proscribed it? The fossil fuel industry continues. I think the word proscribed does not mean what you think it means.

It means they haven't been banned, but they will  soon be relegated to the dustbin of history.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

The problem in the EU - and even more so in Oz - is the wasted decade from 2010 on.

Germany is heavily invested in renewables.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/paragraph_text_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig1-installed-net-power-generation-capacity-germany-2002-2021.png

They still couldn't handle the wind drought. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

ore refining  will be powered by  green hydrogen.

Ah your wish list again, Every problem has an engineering solution. ;D ;D ;D

"The technology to convert power to hydrogen and back to power has a round-trip efficiency of 18%-46%, according to data that Flora presented from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and scientific journal Nature Energy."

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/hydrogen-technology-faces-efficiency-disadvantage-in-power-storage-race-65162028

So you would need at least 3 to 6 times the power input just to get the same out.


thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

Of dear, not only a denier, but complete lack of vision as well. Let those who know how to decarbonize the economy get on with it.

You have come up with absolutely nothing except all problems have an engineering solution. A real numpty. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

.
thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

You still smoking and coughing?

Nope gave up in 1973.


thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

It might not kill you, but it will ruin your health. ditto for fossil filth in congested urban areas.

And yet you still can't find that elusive paper to prove your point. Why is that? ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

... ideological blindness on display: you going to volunteer to live in a fossil-polluted urban environment, when authorities have recognized the health hazards for decades (eg lead poisoning) and demanded vehicle anti-pollution  devices.

Oh dear. Seamlessly moves from PM2.5 to lead. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

"EPA’s assessment of the PM2.5 science is a case study in science fraud.

First, the PM epidemiology is not science — it’s just statistics and dishonest statistics at that.

Statistical associations by themselves are not science.

EPA admitted in federal court with me that the PM epidemiology alone is inadequate for determining causality."

"Studies show that smokers who quit by age 40 will have inhaled thousands of times more PM than nonsmokers – yet both groups have the same life expectancy.

PM levels in Chinese and Indian cities can be 100 or more times greater than US outdoor air – but there are no reports of actual deaths from inhaling Chinese or Indian air."

"Coal miners and diesel workers have relatively large exposures to PM – but they have greater life expectancy than workers not occupationally exposed to PM.

And guess what, when PM levels are reduced, deaths don’t go down. "

"There is not a single toxic substance known to science that operates on the principle that a little exposure is worse than a lot. Not a single one.

All the foregoing is indisputable. At least I have no seen anyone dispute it."

https://junkscience.com/2021/11/milloy-to-epa-casac-pm-subpanel-epas-assessment-of-pm2-5-is-science-fraud/

Because obviously you can't research. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

tobacco and fossil fuels.

Rubbish


thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 1:37pm:

It means they haven't been banned, but they will  soon be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Wrong again.

"pro·scribe  (prō-skrīb′)
tr.v. pro·scribed, pro·scrib·ing, pro·scribes
1. To prohibit; forbid: foods that are proscribed by religious dietary laws. See Synonyms at forbid.
2. To denounce or condemn: "The small sins of natural pleasure that we see ... mildly proscribed in the confession manuals of the late Middle Ages" (James Turner).
3.
a. To banish or outlaw (a person): "Emperors took it on themselves to proscribe heretics" (Garry Wills).
b. To publish the name of (a person) as outlawed."

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/proscribed

It hasn't been prohibited , banned or outlawed.

So another of your fallacies. Why do you lie so much? ::)

lee wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 2:33pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26th, 2022 at 1:37pm: It means they haven't been banned, but they will  soon be relegated to the dustbin of history. Wrong again. "pro·scribe  (prō-skrīb′) tr.v. pro·scribed, pro·scrib·ing, pro·scribes 1. To prohibit; forbid: foods that are proscribed by religious dietary laws. See Synonyms at forbid. 2. To denounce or condemn: "The small sins of natural pleasure that we see ... mildly proscribed in the confession manuals of the late Middle Ages" (James Turner). 3. a. To banish or outlaw (a person): "Emperors took it on themselves to proscribe heretics" (Garry Wills). b. To publish the name of (a person) as outlawed." https://www.thefreedictionary.com/proscribed It hasn't been prohibited , banned or outlawed. So another of your fallacies. Why do you lie so much? ::)

Weird how you didn't answer what he said....

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 2:35pm:

Weird how you didn't answer what he said....

Really weird that he said "Obviously governments have proscribed a profitable industry for..."

They haven't been proscribed, anywhere. Note the use of the current tense.

Don't you think that answers the statement? If not why?

lee wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 2:52pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 26th, 2022 at 2:35pm: Weird how you didn't answer what he said.... Really weird that he said "Obviously governments have proscribed a profitable industry for..." They haven't been proscribed, anywhere. Note the use of the current tense. Don't you think that answers the statement? If not why?

So I stand corrected: I deliberately avoided "banned", thinking proscribed meant 'frowned upon'.

But FTLW is right, you didn't reply to what I said, rather  you hide behind a definition of proscribed. 

But hey here's another definition (quick google)

" denounce or condemn"...though not banned.

 

thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 3:45pm:

So I stand corrected: I deliberately avoided "banned", thinking proscribed meant 'frowned upon'.

Very good


thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 3:45pm:

But FTLW is right, you didn't reply to what I said, rather  you hide behind a definition of proscribed.

Because you used the word proscribed. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 3:45pm:

But hey here's another definition (quick google) " denounce or condemn"...though not banned.

Coal plants haven't been condemned either. They are still in operation. No country has denounced them.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

when it comes to eliminating  tobacco and filthy fossil, rumour is enough, apparently.

Invisible, odourless trace gas that is an ESSENTIAL plant food is now "filthy fossil". 

Since photosynthesis and stomatal behavior are central to plant carbon and water metabolism, growth of plants under elevated CO2 leads to a large variety of secondary effects on plant physiology. The availability of additional photosynthate enables most plants to grow faster under elevated CO2, with dry matter production in FACE experiments being increased on average by 17% for the aboveground, and more than 30% for the belowground, portions of plants (Ainsworth & Long 2005; de Graaff et al. 2006). This increased growth is also reflected in the harvestable yield of crops, with wheat, rice and soybean all showing increases in yield of 12–14% under elevated CO2 in FACE experiments (Ainsworth 2008; Long et al. 2006).
https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/effects-of-rising-atmospheric-concentrations-of-carbon-13254108/


Tewwible.  :'( :'( 

Frank wrote on May 26^th, 2022 at 4:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25th, 2022 at 10:36pm: when it comes to eliminating  tobacco and filthy fossil, rumour is enough, apparently.  Invisible, odourless trace gas that is an ESSENTIAL plant food is now "filthy fossil".

Of course not, you haven't been following the debate; many compounds emitted by fossil fuel combustion (hence "filthy fossil")  are injurious to human (and enviromental) health.


Quote:

Since photosynthesis and stomatal behavior are central to plant carbon and water metabolism, growth of plants under elevated CO2 leads to a large variety of secondary effects on plant physiology. The availability of additional photosynthate enables most plants to grow faster under elevated CO2, with dry matter production in FACE experiments being increased on average by 17% for the aboveground, and more than 30% for the belowground, portions of plants (Ainsworth & Long 2005; de Graaff et al. 2006). This increased growth is also reflected in the harvestable yield of crops, with wheat, rice and soybean all showing increases in yield of 12–14% under elevated CO2 in FACE experiments (Ainsworth 2008; Long et al. 2006). https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/effects-of-rising-atmospheric-concentrations-of-carbon-13254108/ Tewwible.  :'( :'(

I'll be generous and thank you for the  lesson on photo-synthesis, but it's an irrelevant interjection to the post to which you thought you were replying. 

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/108/388/623/original/d7e17f63437924a5.jpg

Bobby. wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 1:15pm:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/108/388/623/original/d7e17f63437924a5.jpg

So what? They kill gays in Saudi, why shoudn't we do it, right?

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 1:17pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 10th, 2022 at 1:15pm: https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/108/388/623/original/d7e17f63437924a5.jpg So what? They kill gays in Saudi, why shoudn't we do it, right?

It shows that whatever we do is only symbolic.
It's a drop in the ocean compared to countries like China.

The lefty's like making the most noise - like empty vessels.

lee wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 2:47pm:

The lefty's like making the most noise - like empty vessels.

While flat-earth central bankers and their NAIRU neo-liberal market dogmas are silently responsible for the greatest economic catastrophes, without you having a clue....

https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/06/09/inflation-stupidities-alan-kohler/

Alan Kohler: The two great stupidities behind our inflation.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

While flat-earth central bankers and their NAIRU neo-liberal market dogmas are silently responsible for the greatest economic catastrophes, without you having a clue....

Never mind. You want to try an unproven hypothesis instead of one that has a few problems. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 6:57pm:

Never mind. You want to try an unproven hypothesis instead of one that has a few problems. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Only a flat-earth, comfortable conservative could assert we have "a few problems" ..... and should therefore stick with the obsolete flat-earth neoliberal economics as practiced by the "druids" of the reserve bank..and the consequent  stupidities correctly identified by Kohler. 

...eg prices of fuel and food rising, due to covid blockages and  and war?  - good,  jack up interest rates, that will fix supply problems.....

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 9:26pm:

Only a flat-earth, comfortable conservative could assert we have "a few problems" ..... and should therefore stick with the obsolete flat-earth neoliberal economics as practiced by the "druids" of the reserve bank..and the consequent  stupidities correctly identified by Kohler.

Only a nincompoop would argue that they are more than few. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 11^th, 2022 at 9:26pm:

eg prices of fuel and food rising, due to covid blockages and  and war?  - good,  jack up interest rates, that will fix supply problems.....

So you believe in interest rates below 3%? ;D ;D ;D ;D

Never mind the great god Keating who had home loan rates at 17%. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Atomic batteries might force Petrol prices wayyyyyyyyyyyy up as the Oil Companies go all out to get what they can before they hit the obsolete pile.

lee wrote on Jun 10^th, 2022 at 2:47pm:

The lefty's like making the most noise - like empty vessels.

The Greens have Albanese over a barrel.

The Greens are in charge now.

Soon the Cheer Mob will take over through the Greens.
I would like to see that. Australia ruled by the Cheer Mob.
I wonder how they would go ruling 24 million people from around the world, now that it isn't like it was before 1788?

Give the Cheer Mob a 'fair go'. Let's see how they go? ;)
...give em what they want. :D

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 12:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 11th, 2022 at 9:26pm: Only a flat-earth, comfortable conservative could assert we have "a few problems" ..... and should therefore stick with the obsolete flat-earth neoliberal economics as practiced by the "druids" of the reserve bank..and the consequent  stupidities correctly identified by Kohler. Only a nincompoop would argue that they are more than few. ;D ;D ;D ;D

https://www.visionofhumanity.org/climate-change-induced-drought-destabilising-global-peace/

"Global Drought Caused by Climate Change Can Lead to Conflict".

"There is mounting evidence that climate change is creating the conditions for instability and poverty, two significant contributors to the outbreak of civil war and violence.  (eg, in  Syria Yemen and Africa)

and

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202206/1267684.shtml

The three-month-old conflict brings new bloodshed and suffering for those on the ground. For people around the world, the conflict, together with the other crises, is threatening to unleash "an unprecedented wave of hunger and destitution, leaving social and economic chaos in its wake," the UN Chief said at the launch of a second report by the Global Crisis Response Group on Food, Energy and Finance over the Ukraine conflict.

Easy to see who the "nincompook" is...


Quote:

So you believe in interest rates below 3%? ;D ;D ;D ;D

Interest rates should be near zero...as they have been since the GFC....and in Japan since their 90's property crash.   


Quote:

Never mind the great god Keating who had home loan rates at 17%. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Keating was a 'flat-earth' neoliberal who - like you - has no understanding of money creation in the public sector.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

"Global Drought Caused by Climate Change Can Lead to Conflict".

So what is this GLOBAL drought? Any drought can cause conflict. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

The three-month-old conflict brings new bloodshed and suffering for those on the ground. For people around the world, the conflict, together with the other crises, is threatening to unleash "an unprecedented wave of hunger and destitution, leaving social and economic chaos in its wake," the UN Chief said at the launch of a second report by the Global Crisis Response Group on Food, Energy and Finance over the Ukraine conflict.

Nothing to do with drought then. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

Easy to see who the "nincompook" is...

You mean you because you can't spell properly? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

Interest rates should be near zero...as they have been since the GFC....and in Japan since their 90's property crash.

And Japan has been desperately trying to fix that. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 2:57pm:

Keating was a 'flat-earth' neoliberal who - like you - has no understanding of money creation in the public sector.

As opposed to you who just have no understanding at all. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Schott explained why Australia needed an enormous expansion of the national power grid.

“The way you deal with intermittency is first of all by having a lot of transmission to add renewable capacity, and to use different weather patterns across the network.”

Power generated in different regions and states could be fed to areas where wind and solar was underperforming on a particular day. In other words, we will build far more generation capacity than we need and far more transmission than fossil fuels need just to keep renewables reliable. We will then need to add tens of billions in storage technology for nights and cold winters.

Climate writers regularly repeat another left-wing lie: that Australia needs to phase out reliance on coal and gas exports because fossil fuels will soon be stranded assets as the world moves to 100 per cent renewables. Yet thermal coal and gas prices are at all-time record highs. The two fastest-growing carbon dioxide emitters, China and India, plan to keep lifting coal generation (China by 300 million tonnes a year and India from one billion to 1.5 billion tonnes a year).

Global emissions, despite $US2 trillion spent on renewables, rose 6 per cent last year to 36.3 billion tonnes. Australian emissions actually fell 3.2 per cent, even though culture-warring climate writers, the Greens and teals claim we are falling behind. The public would not know it from following most media but Australia is on track to meet its Paris 2030 emissions reduction targets while most of the big-emitting nations are not.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/left-media-keep-public-in-dark-on-renewables/news-story/9ecd1d1b0208d86d885e46d301203169

lee wrote on Jun 12^th, 2022 at 3:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12th, 2022 at 2:57pm: "Global Drought Caused by Climate Change Can Lead to Conflict". So what is this GLOBAL drought? Any drought can cause conflict. ::)

That reply explains a lot ...the 2 sentences are identical in meaning.


Quote:

Nothing to do with drought then. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Drought causes conflict, and conflict leads to price rises for energy and food.


Quote:

You mean you because you can't spell properly? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Running out of debating ability?


Quote:

And Japan has been desperately trying to fix that. ::)

..by NOT raising interest rates which would make things worse, obviously. Note: Japan's GDP has hardly changed at all, since the 90's property and market  crash.   


Quote:

As opposed to you who just have no understanding at all. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'll go with Kohler and Mitchell before your flat-earth neoliberal economics any time.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/180

(Post #184)

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

That reply explains a lot ...the 2 sentences are identical in meaning.

Now I know you can't read properly.  Where is this GLOBAL drought? There isn't global drought. There is, was and probably ever will be drought.


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

Drought causes conflict, and conflict leads to price rises for energy and food.

A simplistic statement for a simpleton. Drought leads to rising food prices. Conflict is caused by multiple things. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

Running out of debating ability?

You were the one quoting "nincompook". ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

.by NOT raising interest rates which would make things worse, obviously. Note: Japan's GDP has hardly changed at all, since the 90's property and market  crash.

And? It is a good thing? A bad thing? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 3:21pm:

I'll go with Kohler and Mitchell before your flat-earth neoliberal economics any time.

Never mind. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Greens policies causing power blackouts now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCv7HihdgIY


Queensland, NSW face potential blackouts

| ABC News


4,789 views  Jun 13, 2022  Queensland is being warned power load shedding is possible tonight, with further cuts possible in New South Wales tomorrow as industry starts up again after the long weekend.
Subscribe: http://ab.co/1svxLVE  Read more here: https://ab.co/3xGetbr
The Australian Energy Market Operator has issued a ‘lack of reserve’ forecast meaning demand is likely to outstrip supply in the two states.
Queenslanders are being urged to conserve electricity or face shedding from 5pm until 11pm. New South Wales from about 8pm.
If demand outstrips what is being generated, load shedding will happen to protect the network.

Bobby. wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 6:43pm:

Greens policies causing power blackouts now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCv7HihdgIY Queensland, NSW face potential blackouts | ABC News 4,789 views  Jun 13, 2022  Queensland is being warned power load shedding is possible tonight, with further cuts possible in New South Wales tomorrow as industry starts up again after the long weekend. Subscribe: http://ab.co/1svxLVE  Read more here: https://ab.co/3xGetbr The Australian Energy Market Operator has issued a ‘lack of reserve’ forecast meaning demand is likely to outstrip supply in the two states. Queenslanders are being urged to conserve electricity or face shedding from 5pm until 11pm. New South Wales from about 8pm. If demand outstrips what is being generated, load shedding will happen to protect the network.

No; lack of investment in renewables, and storage and transmission, over the last decade of a climate denying Coalition government.  The Greens haven't directed govt. policy in  that lost decade. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 4:54pm:

No; lack of investment in renewables, and storage and transmission, over the last decade of a climate denying Coalition government.  The Greens haven't directed govt. policy in  that lost decade.

https://7news.com.au/technology/power-outage/entire-sydney-suburbs-plunged-into-darkness-as-more-power-outages-loom-c-7154237

Entire Sydney suburbs plunged into darkness
as more power outages loom


Entire suburbs in Sydney were sent into darkness on Monday night, with concerns more power outages could hit areas of both New South Wales and Queensland over the next 24 hours.

Homes in Sydney’s north and the Northern Beaches were hit with power outages on Monday night.

Watch more in the video above

Watch the latest News on Channel 7 or stream for free on 7plus >>

Homes in Beacon Hill, Frenchs Forest, Narraweena, Cromer and Dee Why were all temporarily without power, Ausgrid said.

Queenslanders were warned they were at risk of a significant power disruption between 5.30pm to 8pm on Monday, but blackouts were avoided.

Meanwhile, NSW is on high alert from 7pm on Tuesday due to a predicted supply shortfall.

The power outages come as Federal Energy Minister Chris Bowen warns the system is “under pressure” and said households should ‘brace for a bumpy period ahead’.
Suburbs around Sydney suffered power outages on Monday night, as officials warn more blackouts could be on their way.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 4:54pm:

No; lack of investment in renewables, and storage and transmission, over the last decade of a climate denying Coalition government.

The government denied climate? Oh dear. Do you have a link for that? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Jun 13^th, 2022 at 4:17pm:

Now I know you can't read properly.  Where is this GLOBAL drought? There isn't global drought. There is, was and probably ever will be drought.

Drought can cause conflict; and droughts are increasing in severity around the globe.

(quick google)

"Drought—a year with a below-average water supply—is a natural part of the climate cycle, but as Earth's atmosphere continues to warm due to climate change, droughts are becoming more frequent, severe, and pervasive. The past 20 years have been some of the driest conditions in the American west on record.27 Sept 2021   

Ditto for the GLOBE....get it ? oh.. never mind..


Quote:

A simplistic statement for a simpleton. Drought leads to rising food prices. Conflict is caused by multiple things. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Certainly simple: drought MAY cause conflict, and may cause increase in food and energy prices.


Quote:

You were the one quoting "nincompook". ;)

after you used it as an ad hominen.....oh dear...



Quote:

And? It is a good thing? A bad thing? ::)

Japan's economy would have been plunged into a  disastrous depression if the BoJ had not propped up the economy by buying most of the  debt issued by the government to save the financial industry  (when property and share prices collapsed in 1990; recall Tokyo was said to worth more then the entire US in 1989..) 


Quote:

Never mind. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

It's a pity covid didn't force the lock-down of the global economy for long enough to destroy your flat-earth  neoliberal economic orthodoxy (when public debt would have become unrepayable).

Perhaps climate change may yet do the trick, if climate scientists have erred on the downside of global AGW climate risk.

They destroyed Hazelwood power station and
now Victoria could lose power too.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Hazelwood_Power_Station.jpg/300px-Hazelwood_Power_Station.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazelwood_Power_Station


The Hazelwood Power Station is a decommissioned brown coal-fuelled thermal power station located in the Latrobe Valley of Victoria, Australia. Built between 1964 and 1971, the 1,600-megawatt-capacity power station was made up of eight 200MW units, and supplied up to
25% of Victoria's base load electricity
and more than 5% of Australia's total electricity demand.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

but as Earth's atmosphere continues to warm due to climate change, droughts are becoming more frequent, severe, and pervasive. The past 20 years have been some of the driest conditions in the American west on record.27 Sept 2021

AH NASA

"The past 20 years have been some of the driest conditions in the American west on record. Right now, the western United States—including the part of California home to Schohr’s ranch—is experiencing extreme or exceptional drought that will likely have long-term impacts on the land and the people who depend on it.  "

So something like the 163 year drought? Or not. " 20 years driest" is not the same as 20 years drought. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

According to wiki California has had four droughts since 2000. 2006-2010, 2011-2017, 2018 and 2020-2021. California has had 6 year droughts in the past. Apart from the really long ones.

La Nina brings droughts to California. La Nina is not a symptom of climate change but natural variability.


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

Certainly simple: drought MAY cause conflict, and may cause increase in food and energy prices.

Yes. But definitely not "WILL". ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

after you used it as an ad hominen.....oh dear...

No dear. The "nincompook" starts with you. ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

Japan's economy would have been plunged into a  disastrous depression if the BoJ had not propped up the economy by buying most of the  debt issued by the government to save the financial industry  (when property and share prices collapsed in 1990; recall Tokyo was said to worth more then the entire US in 1989..)

And post the bailing out of the banks? Do the Japanese want to keep it low or are they forced to keep it low? ::)


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:16pm:

Perhaps climate change may yet do the trick, if climate scientists have erred on the downside of global AGW climate risk.

Or perhaps over on the easy coast they can get used to blackouts. The AEMO wants to force diesel and gas fired generators to make power. Even if it costs them more than is economic. ::)

lee wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 5:44pm:

And post the bailing out of the banks? Do the Japanese want to keep it low or are they forced to keep it low? ::)

Well the Japanese govt. has been trying to avoid DEFLATION  since the 1990 property/share crash.  Hence the low interest rates.

(google)

How did Japan overcome deflation?
In 2001, the Bank of Japan began to target the money supply instead of interest rates, which helped moderate deflation and stimulate economic growth.


Quote:

Or perhaps over on the easy coast they can get used to blackouts. The AEMO wants to force diesel and gas fired generators to make power. Even if it costs them more than is economic. ::)

The whole Oz gas experience has demonstrated the absolute worst of greedy private multinational/national companies seeking maximum gain in market capitalism.

The ALP stared the goons down a decade ago in WA and forced a gas reservation scheme (15%) on the greedy bastards, now WA gas  has barely been affected by the current global crisis in prices. 

But in the East the fossil-loving Feds  gave the same bastards everything they wanted, so that for a while   we confronted the madness of importing Oz gas back from Japan, because local OZ gas in the East was too expensive for Oz consumers.

Just  proves essentials like energy should be nationalized. Greed driven markets don't work with essentials, the market should be largely restricted to discretionary goods and services.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 6:13pm:

The whole Oz gas experience has demonstrated the absolute worst of greedy private multinational/national companies seeking maximum gain in market capitalism.

So we shouldn't charge uncontracted gas at spot price? How much of east coast gas is uncontracted.

lee wrote on Jun 14^th, 2022 at 6:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 6:13pm: The whole Oz gas experience has demonstrated the absolute worst of greedy private multinational/national companies seeking maximum gain in market capitalism. Quote: So we shouldn't charge uncontracted gas at spot price? No. As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). So your diversion to "spot prices" is a red herring. Neoliberal privatized markets are a failure. Oz has the most energy resources in the world (both renewable and fossils), and yet citizens are told to "put on more clothes" to keep warm, while private companies are deliberately staying out of the market until directed by the government...so that they can claim "compensation" from the government. That's your seek, evil, mainstream market economics with all its survival of the fittest ("maximizing private profit")  savagery on full display.    [quote]How much of east coast gas is uncontracted.

Very little...AND there is no reservation policy (as in WA which consequently is faring much better  in the current global energy crisis.  duh).

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 12:53pm:

No. As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). So your diversion to "spot prices" is a red herring.

To do that you would have to nationalise everything. ::) Oh yes that's right MMT, the untried, is the answer. ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 12:53pm:

Very little...AND there is no reservation policy (as in WA which consequently is faring much better  in the current global energy crisis.  duh).

Exactly And Labor is doing so well in Queensland. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 1:13pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:53pm: No. As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). So your diversion to "spot prices" is a red herring. To do that you would have to nationalise everything. ::) Oh yes that's right MMT, the untried, is the answer. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Nonsense. You need to nationalize the things I identified..duh.


Quote:

Exactly And Labor is doing so well in Queensland. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Federal Coalition resisted introduction of the WA reservation scheme when overseas export contracts were signed in the East.
And likely there was (and is) plenty of collusion in the ALP with big gas miners in the Eastern states (who are not so resource rich as WA), to ensure well-paid employment for workers....

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 3:07pm:

Nonsense. You need to nationalize the things I identified..duh.

You didn't identify you merely made a sweeping statement.
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 12:53pm:

As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy).

So what exactly do you mean by energy?


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 3:07pm:

Federal Coalition resisted introduction of the WA reservation scheme when overseas export contracts were signed in the East.

How did they resist when it is solely a state responsibility? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 3:14pm:

You didn't identify you merely made a sweeping statement. thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:53pm: As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). A sweeping statement? I identified 4 (essential) areas of concern; you can have your self-interest-driven "invisible hand"  markets for discretionary goods and services. Quote: So what exactly do you mean by energy? Back into your dumb mode: energy (fossil or renewable sourced). [quote]How did they resist when it is solely a state responsibility? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Overseas contracts involve the Feds, who discouraged the eastern states from a reservation policy -  too "socialist" for Coalition ideologues.

https://www.appea.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/APPEA-submission-Gas-Reservation-Issues-Paper-November-2020.pdf

"In the absence of any clearly established need, APPEA recommends the Australian Government
does not seek to impose a prospective national domestic gas reservation scheme"

And the Coalition rolled over...

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

A sweeping statement?

Yes.


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

Back into your dumb mode: energy (fossil or renewable sourced).

Thanks for clearing that up. ;)


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

Overseas contracts involve the Feds, who discouraged the eastern states from a reservation policy -  too "socialist" for Coalition ideologues.

Not all. Stop making sch!t up.


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:02pm:

https://www.appea.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/APPEA-submission-Gas-Reserva... "In the absence of any clearly established need, APPEA recommends the Australian Government does not seek to impose a prospective national domestic gas reservation scheme"

So nothing about WA exports then. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:38pm:

So nothing about WA exports then. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

No, because WA Labor had the brains to introduce reservation policy, unlike the Feds who were willingly screwed by the fossil lobby, as noted in the link.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 5:31pm:

No, because WA Labor had the brains to introduce reservation policy, unlike the Feds who were willingly screwed by the fossil lobby, as noted in the link.

So somehow WA managed to evade the feds forcing the other states not to have reserved gas? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:23pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16th, 2022 at 5:31pm: No, because WA Labor had the brains to introduce reservation policy, unlike the Feds who were willingly screwed by the fossil lobby, as noted in the link. So somehow WA managed to evade the feds forcing the other states not to have reserved gas? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Circumstances were different in WA. , and Labor forced the issue in WA.
Development of the Gladstone gas export terminals and contracts  happened after WA had set its reserve policy, and the fossil companies won the argument with the Feds,  with their greed-based no reservation policy  for Gladstone gas exports. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:52pm:

Circumstances were different in WA.

okay.


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 6:52pm:

Development of the Gladstone gas export terminals and contracts  happened after WA had set its reserve policy, and the fossil companies won the argument with the Feds,  with their greed-based no reservation policy  for Gladstone gas exports.

And a Labor Government to boot. But it was the feds fault ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Environmentalists and their allies in big business have argued that batteries solve this problem. Battery technology has come a long way, with “mega-batteries” able to store and release power when the wind doesn’t blow and the sun doesn’t shine. Indeed, South Australia is home to one of the biggest lithium batteries in the world, with installation of more big batteries planned for more states and territories.

Yet to build these mega-batteries we need more mining, which in turn releases more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Batteries for electric cars and renewable energy storage are made out of copper, zinc, aluminium and lithium. According to a report by the ABC, “a wind turbine needs four times more minerals than a coal-fired power station to generate the same amount of electricity”. The irony is that we will need to increase our carbon emissions to reduce them.

And not only does mining produce large amounts of carbon dioxide but mines also can leak toxic materials into waterways. Mines often are opposed by environmental groups for this reason. It can take years for new mines to be approved because of Australia’s high standards of environmental protection regulation.

To complicate things further, the trend in the corporate world is to avoid investment in mining because of environmental, social and governance considerations.

The result is that demand for the minerals that go into batteries is going up while supply is going down, leading to what some analysts have called “greenflation”.
...

The experience of Germany demonstrates the impact that renewables can have on electricity markets. A 2019 report produced by Deloitte on the German electricity market says newer, more modern coal-fired plants are able to meet the “flexibility challenge” posed by renewables, but older plants cannot.

Despite having the highest share of cheap renewable energy from wind and solar, Germany has the highest electricity prices in Europe. Fossil fuels are locked in as backup power, which has led Germany to become dependent on imported gas from Russia. This is despite spending $743bn on its energy transition.

Some countries, such as France, Sweden and Iceland, do get most of their electricity from low-carbon dioxide sources. But these low-CO2 sources are not wind and solar, which make up only 2 per cent and 1 per cent of global total energy production, they are hydropower and nuclear.
Energy Minister Chris Bowen recently described the case for nuclear energy as “a complete joke” and moratoriums on gas exploration and extraction remain in place across the country. West Australian Premier Mark McGowan has announced that his state will shut two coal-fired power plants. In addition to the two plants in WA, the Liddell power plant in NSW is scheduled to close next year and Yallourn power station in Victoria is set to shut in 2028.

When the Hazelwood coal-fired plant in Victoria closed in 2017, the closure resulted in higher energy prices that lasted for years. The Australian Energy Regulator reported that in 2018 the closure of Hazelwood led to average electricity spot prices that were 85 per cent higher than the previous year in Victoria, 63 per cent higher in NSW, 53 per cent in Queensland and 32 per cent higher in SA.
...
From watching the European experience, we know baseload power can come only from coal, gas or nuclear energy. If our leaders do not manage this situation carefully and learn from other nations, Australians may have to prepare for an energy crisis that never ends.
Clare Lehman

We should build more hydro power stations and replace old coal/gas fired stations with modern ones. Also a couple of latest tech small nuclear power stations. Tiny S Korea has 24 (and massive manufacturing sector), Belgium 7, Sweden 6 (again, massive manufacturing sector).

Australia is 26 million people on an amazingly energy and resource rich CONTINENT with sky high energy prices and no real high tech, high skill industry.  Exporting Iron ore, coal/gas and education to Asia is not a smart, long-term plan, it is, rather, turning Australia into an Asian dependency.

Frank wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:28am:

Australia is 26 million people on an amazingly energy and resource rich CONTINENT with sky high energy prices and no real high tech, high skill industry.  Exporting Iron ore, coal/gas and education to Asia is not a smart, long-term plan, it is, rather, turning Australia into an Asian dependency.

Agreed.  We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:35am:

We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it

Another one who doesn't understand that renewables are weather dependent.

So where would we make the fortune? Solar panels? No - you need reliable energy supply for semiconductors.

Wind Turbines? No - you need reliable energy supply  for steel, copper, aluminium etc.

Lithium batteries? No - you need reliable energy supply again.

Reliable energy that China has in spades.

lee wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17th, 2022 at 10:35am: We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it Another one who doesn't understand that renewables are weather dependent. So where would we make the fortune? Solar panels? No - you need reliable energy supply for semiconductors. Wind Turbines? No - you need reliable energy supply  for steel, copper, aluminium etc. Lithium batteries? No - you need reliable energy supply again. Reliable energy that China has in spades.

You seem mentally ill.  Would we use coal in the early stages to make things?  Sure.  So what?

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

lee wrote on Jun 17th, 2022 at 12:20pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17th, 2022 at 10:35am: We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it Another one who doesn't understand that renewables are weather dependent. So where would we make the fortune? Solar panels? No - you need reliable energy supply for semiconductors. Wind Turbines? No - you need reliable energy supply  for steel, copper, aluminium etc. Lithium batteries? No - you need reliable energy supply again. Reliable energy that China has in spades. You seem mentally ill.  Would we use coal in the early stages to make things?  Sure.  So what?

Billy's talking to you, Yappy mong -  and so say all of us:

https://youtu.be/BaqsOL-Nv24

Geddit?

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

Would we use coal in the early stages to make things?  Sure.  So what?

Seeing as Albo wants to decrease our emissions by 43% in 8 years you tell us.

WA closing Coal by 2030.  Just how soon would we run out of the "early stages"? ;)

https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix

https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/08/Global-primary-energy-by-source-800x372.png
Renewables aren't even keeping up with our increased energy use. ::)

OurWorldinData tells us that the global primary energy consumed in 2019 is provided by oil (33.8%), natural gas (24.7%), coal (27.6%), traditional biomass (7%), hydroelectric (2.7%), nuclear (1.8%), wind (0.9%), modern biofuels (0.7%), and 0.8% solar plus other renewables.

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 12:28pm:

lee wrote on Jun 17th, 2022 at 12:20pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17th, 2022 at 10:35am: We should be making a fortune out of renewables, we are better positioned than most to do it Another one who doesn't understand that renewables are weather dependent. So where would we make the fortune? Solar panels? No - you need reliable energy supply for semiconductors. Wind Turbines? No - you need reliable energy supply  for steel, copper, aluminium etc. Lithium batteries? No - you need reliable energy supply again. Reliable energy that China has in spades. You seem mentally ill.  Would we use coal in the early stages to make things?  Sure.  So what?

F*uck off!
;D

lee wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 17th, 2022 at 12:28pm: Would we use coal in the early stages to make things?  Sure.  So what? Seeing as Albo wants to decrease our emissions by 43% in 8 years you tell us. WA closing Coal by 2030.  Just how soon would we run out of the "early stages"? ;) https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2020/08/Global-primary-energy-by-source-800x372.png Renewables aren't even keeping up with our increased energy use. ::) OurWorldinData tells us that the global primary energy consumed in 2019 is provided by oil (33.8%), natural gas (24.7%), coal (27.6%), traditional biomass (7%), hydroelectric (2.7%), nuclear (1.8%), wind (0.9%), modern biofuels (0.7%), and 0.8% solar plus other renewables.

"Decarbonising the economy" and net zero are deluded fantasies by people who have no idea of how things are made and how the making of things is powered. They are fantasies both nationally and globally.

It would actually be a HUGE step if Africa, India, China were put on high quality coal and gas for their power generation, with some form of carbon capture (not least re-forestation).

But the delivery of electricity would require infrastructure - nonexistent in sub saharan Africa where three quarters of the population has no access to electricity and burn biomass - wood, dung - or cheap coal or oil.

Is Obama  all for green energy?

"Former President Barack Obama has ordered three massive propane tanks for his Martha’s Vineyard property as energy prices nationwide continue to surge.

The office of the select board of Edgartown, Massachusetts, told The Daily Caller News Foundation that an application for an “underground propane installment was approved at the 79 Turkeyland Cove Road address,” the location of a property owned by former President Barack Obama. The tanks are to be used for “residential purposes,” the office told TheDCNF, and have a total capacity approved of “2,500 gallons which was broken into two 1,000 gallon tanks and one 500 gallon tank.” "

https://dailycaller.com/2022/06/15/gas-former-president-obama-propane-tank-marthas-vineyard-mansion/

And others for those who don't like the Daily Caller. ;)

lee wrote on Jun 16^th, 2022 at 7:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16th, 2022 at 6:52pm: Circumstances were different in WA. okay. thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16th, 2022 at 6:52pm: Development of the Gladstone gas export terminals and contracts  happened after WA had set its reserve policy, and the fossil companies won the argument with the Feds,  with their greed-based no reservation policy  for Gladstone gas exports.  And a Labor Government to boot. But it was the feds fault ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Of course, they gave the go ahead.

Frank wrote on Jun 17^th, 2022 at 10:28am:

Environmentalists and their allies in big business have argued that batteries solve this problem. Battery technology has come a long way, with “mega-batteries” able to store and release power when the wind doesn’t blow and the sun doesn’t shine. Indeed, South Australia is home to one of the biggest lithium batteries in the world, with installation of more big batteries planned for more states and territories. Yet to build these mega-batteries we need more mining, which in turn releases more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Batteries for electric cars and renewable energy storage are made out of copper, zinc, aluminium and lithium. According to a report by the ABC, “a wind turbine needs four times more minerals than a coal-fired power station to generate the same amount of electricity”. The irony is that we will need to increase our carbon emissions to reduce them. And not only does mining produce large amounts of carbon dioxide but mines also can leak toxic materials into waterways. Mines often are opposed by environmental groups for this reason. It can take years for new mines to be approved because of Australia’s high standards of environmental protection regulation. To complicate things further, the trend in the corporate world is to avoid investment in mining because of environmental, social and governance considerations. The result is that demand for the minerals that go into batteries is going up while supply is going down, leading to what some analysts have called “greenflation”. ... The experience of Germany demonstrates the impact that renewables can have on electricity markets. A 2019 report produced by Deloitte on the German electricity market says newer, more modern coal-fired plants are able to meet the “flexibility challenge” posed by renewables, but older plants cannot. Despite having the highest share of cheap renewable energy from wind and solar, Germany has the highest electricity prices in Europe. Fossil fuels are locked in as backup power, which has led Germany to become dependent on imported gas from Russia. This is despite spending $743bn on its energy transition. Some countries, such as France, Sweden and Iceland, do get most of their electricity from low-carbon dioxide sources. But these low-CO2 sources are not wind and solar, which make up only 2 per cent and 1 per cent of global total energy production, they are hydropower and nuclear. Energy Minister Chris Bowen recently described the case for nuclear energy as “a complete joke” and moratoriums on gas exploration and extraction remain in place across the country. West Australian Premier Mark McGowan has announced that his state will shut two coal-fired power plants. In addition to the two plants in WA, the Liddell power plant in NSW is scheduled to close next year and Yallourn power station in Victoria is set to shut in 2028. When the Hazelwood coal-fired plant in Victoria closed in 2017, the closure resulted in higher energy prices that lasted for years. The Australian Energy Regulator reported that in 2018 the closure of Hazelwood led to average electricity spot prices that were 85 per cent higher than the previous year in Victoria, 63 per cent higher in NSW, 53 per cent in Queensland and 32 per cent higher in SA. ... From watching the European experience, we know baseload power can come only from coal, gas or nuclear energy. If our leaders do not manage this situation carefully and learn from other nations, Australians may have to prepare for an energy crisis that never ends. Clare Lehman We should build more hydro power stations and replace old coal/gas fired stations with modern ones. Also a couple of latest tech small nuclear power stations. Tiny S Korea has 24 (and massive manufacturing sector), Belgium 7, Sweden 6 (again, massive manufacturing sector). Australia is 26 million people on an amazingly energy and resource rich CONTINENT with sky high energy prices and no real high tech, high skill industry.  Exporting Iron ore, coal/gas and education to Asia is not a smart, long-term plan, it is, rather, turning Australia into an Asian dependency.

Coal plants are too inflexible to meet changes in the supply of renewables, and hence grid demand (they have to remain operating continuously) 

According to Tim Buckley, the cheapest and  fastest form of new energy capacity in Oz, is rooftop solar and upgraded transmission  And diversion of currently produced Oz gas from exports as required for backup, until Snowy 2 and other storage comes on-line. 

And in a decade Oz can be exporting green steel rather than dirt (using green hydrogen rather than coal as fuel). Massive value-added export potential.

Earliest  energy from nuclear would be 3 decades away in Oz.    

https://mobile.twitter.com/suzseddon/status/1538211960738787335

Coal plants are too inflexible to meet changes in the supply of renewables, and hence grid demand (they have to remain operating continuously)

According to Tim Buckley, the cheapest and  fastest form of new energy capacity in Oz, is rooftop solar and upgraded transmission  And diversion of currently produced Oz gas from exports as required for backup, until Snowy 2 and other storage comes on-line.

And in a decade Oz can be exporting green steel rather than dirt (using green hydrogen rather than coal as fuel). Massive value-added export potential.

Earliest  energy from nuclear would be 3 decades away in Oz.   

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

Coal plants are too inflexible to meet changes in the supply of renewables, and hence grid demand (they have to remain operating continuously)

Yes. Now explain why they are necessarily a bad thing as opposed to Weather Dependent Renewables. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

According to Tim Buckley, the cheapest and  fastest form of new energy capacity in Oz, is rooftop solar and upgraded transmission  And diversion of currently produced Oz gas from exports as required for backup, until Snowy 2 and other storage comes on-line.

A subsidy miner who doesn't have any engineering skills. ::)
.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

And in a decade Oz can be exporting green steel rather than dirt (using green hydrogen rather than coal as fuel). Massive value-added export potential.

And how do you make "green steel"? "Green Steel" still has carbon, without carbon it is not steel. Through a loss making structure from start to finish.;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

Earliest  energy from nuclear would be 3 decades away in Oz.

Only because of Green Tape. ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Jun 20^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 20th, 2022 at 12:44pm: Coal plants are too inflexible to meet changes in the supply of renewables, and hence grid demand (they have to remain operating continuously) Yes. Now explain why they are necessarily a bad thing as opposed to Weather Dependent Renewables. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Because AGW is accepted as real.....


Quote:

A subsidy miner who doesn't have any engineering skills.

Btw, " Although the losses of the pumping process make the plant (pumped hydro)  a net consumer of energy overall, the system increases revenue by selling more electricity during periods of peak demand, when electricity prices are highest. If the upper lake collects significant rainfall or is fed by a river then the plant may be a net energy producer in the manner of a traditional hydroelectric plant".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity


Quote:

And how do you make "green steel"? "Green Steel" still has carbon, without carbon it is not steel. Through a loss making structure from start to finish.;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Back to your dumb mode? You make green steel by burning green hydrogen rather than coking coal. Any 'carbon' additive used to improve the quality of the steel is not an emission. 


Quote:

Only because of Green Tape. ;D ;D ;D ;D

"In contrast, the costs of building and operating nuclear in Australia remain prohibitively high. Further, analysis conducted by the nuclear industry itself shows nuclear power stations take an average of 9.4 years to build – compared to 1–3 years for a major wind or solar project.18 Jan 2022".

Ok,  ONLY a decade then.....