Let's start off with a song that goes back a bit, but it was voted the "happiest" pop song


https://youtu.be/Nubi_xJJ1Jg

https://tours.nga.gov.au/botticelli-van-gogh/stop/15/

https://tours.nga.gov.au/botticelli-van-gogh/stop/12/

It is a very good tour of 500 years of art, will go and see it again before it closes. Robert Hughes wrote excellent art reviews for Time magazine, including essays on some of the artists in this exhibition - see his Nothing if not Critical.

An introduction to Western Culture ...


Western culture, sometimes equated with Western civilization, Occidental culture, the Western world, Western society, and European civilization, is the heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems, political systems, artifacts and technologies of the Western world that originated in or are associated with Europe. The term also applies beyond Europe to countries and cultures whose histories are strongly connected to Europe by immigration, colonization, or influence. For example, Western culture includes countries in Northern America, such as Canada and the United States, or Australasia, such as Australia and New Zealand, whose language and demographic ethnicity majorities are of European descent

Western culture is most strongly influenced by the Greco-Roman and Christian cultures

Ancient Greece is considered the birthplace of many elements of Western culture, including the development of a democratic system of government and major advances in philosophy, science and mathematics

Plato, along with Socrates and Aristotle, helped to establish Western philosophy.


https://youtu.be/MeyokEWuWcA

And a very good thing it  is, too.



Part 1 of 13.

https://youtu.be/JxEJn7dWY60

To understand Western Culture, we must first understand Western Philosophy. I've posted short excerpts so it's easy to understand, rather than reading a long Wiki page you might never get through, except for the two dictionary definitions taken from elsewhere


Western philosophy

Western philosophy refers to the philosophical thought and work of the Western world. Historically, the term refers to the philosophical thinking of Western culture, beginning with the ancient Greek philosophy of the pre-Socratics. The word philosophy itself originated from the Ancient Greek philosophía (φιλοσοφία), literally, "the love of wisdom" (φιλεῖν phileîn, "to love" and σοφία sophía, "wisdom").




love
/lʌv/
noun

like or enjoy very much.



Definition of wisdom

: knowledge that is gained by having many experiences in life : the natural ability to understand things that most other people cannot understand : knowledge of what is proper or reasonable : good sense or judgment




Ancient Greek philosophy

The scope of ancient Western philosophy included the problems of philosophy as they are understood today; but it also included many other disciplines, such as pure mathematics and natural sciences such as physics, astronomy, and biology (Aristotle, for example, wrote on all of these topics).



20th-century philosophy and Contemporary philosophy (and 21 Century)

The three major contemporary approaches to academic philosophy are analytic philosophy, continental philosophy and pragmatism.[90] They are neither exhaustive nor mutually exclusive.



Since the Second World War, contemporary philosophy has been divided mostly into analytic and continental traditions; the former carried in the English speaking world and the latter on the continent of Europe.

Bias_2012 wrote on Apr 7^th, 2021 at 11:06pm:

Let's start off with a song that goes back a bit, but it was voted the "happiest" pop song https://youtu.be/Nubi_xJJ1Jg

great

Here's the lyrics ....

https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/electriclightorchestra/mrbluesky.html

If you press your fingers against your wrist and feel your pulse, you'll notice the basic rhythm of the song is the same as your heart beat (mine anyway, quite relaxed, and what my doctor can't find fault with)


The song has various natural elements in the lyrics that are all positive to supplement "happiness"

Nature (blue sky, Sun, after the rain and clouds cleared)


The Human element (appreciation, celebration, smiling, neighborliness ("Hey you with the pretty face
Welcome to the human race")


A sense of Freedom ("Runnin' down the avenue)"



Western Philosophy and Culture are predominately based on freedom and pursuit of happiness

Bias_2012 wrote on Apr 11^th, 2021 at 10:57pm:

To understand Western Culture, we must first understand Western Philosophy. I've posted short excerpts so it's easy to understand, rather than reading a long Wiki page you might never get through, except for the two dictionary definitions taken from elsewhere Western philosophy Western philosophy refers to the philosophical thought and work of the Western world. Historically, the term refers to the philosophical thinking of Western culture, beginning with the ancient Greek philosophy of the pre-Socratics. The word philosophy itself originated from the Ancient Greek philosophía (φιλοσοφία), literally, "the love of wisdom" (φιλεῖν phileîn, "to love" and σοφία sophía, "wisdom"). love /lʌv/ noun like or enjoy very much. Definition of wisdom : knowledge that is gained by having many experiences in life : the natural ability to understand things that most other people cannot understand : knowledge of what is proper or reasonable : good sense or judgment Ancient Greek philosophy The scope of ancient Western philosophy included the problems of philosophy as they are understood today; but it also included many other disciplines, such as pure mathematics and natural sciences such as physics, astronomy, and biology (Aristotle, for example, wrote on all of these topics). 20th-century philosophy and Contemporary philosophy (and 21 Century) The three major contemporary approaches to academic philosophy are analytic philosophy, continental philosophy and pragmatism.[90] They are neither exhaustive nor mutually exclusive. Since the Second World War, contemporary philosophy has been divided mostly into analytic and continental traditions; the former carried in the English speaking world and the latter on the continent of Europe.

I'd elaborate a little and add that to understand western civilisation one must understand Christianity and to understand Christianity (Platonism for the masses, as that wag Nietzsche said)  one must have a good understanding of ancient Greek philosophy.

I watched the ELO - Mr Blue Sky, OP.

It is a celebration of what ? Unreality ?   "Things have never been so good" ?

Really ?

The truth is, that 'Western Culture' is in real crisis today.   i.e. all societies, which claim 'possession' of 'Western Culture' are in real crisis today, imo.

ELO - Mr Blue Sky ????

....have your heard of the phrase, 'The Roaring 20's' ?

They thought 'things couldn't get any better' too !

The Roaring 20s: Culture, Life & Economy - HISTORY
https://www.history.com/topics/roaring-twenties/roaring-twenties-history





I would say that what Lily Allen sings of, is more emblematic of what 'Western Culture' is about, today.

Dictionary;
emblem = = a heraldic device or symbolic object as a distinctive badge of a nation, organization, or family.     a symbol or symbolic representation.
– DERIVATIVES emblematic


[and, its a great song.]

------ >

Lily Allen - The Fear (Explicit)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wGMlSuX_c


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wGMlSuX_c




Quote:

Lily Allen - The Fear I want to be rich and I want lots of money I don't care about clever I don't care about funny I want loads of clothes and buggerloads of diamonds I heard people die while they are trying to find them And I'll take my clothes off and it will be shameless 'Cause everyone knows that's how you get famous. [Pre-chorus:] I'll look at the sun and I'll look in the mirror I'm on the right track, yeah I'm on to a winner. [Chorus:] I don't know what's right and what's real anymore And I don't know how I'm meant to feel anymore And when do you think it will all become clear? 'Cause I'm being taken over by the fear Life's about film stars and less about mothers It's all about fast cars and cussing each other But it doesn't matter cause I'm packing plastic And that's what makes my life so smacking fantastic ...... ......

Dictionary;
nihilism = =
1 the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
2 extreme scepticism, maintaining that nothing has a real existence.

As crap as the OP song.

Yadda wrote on Apr 12^th, 2021 at 7:19pm:

The truth is, that 'Western Culture' is in real crisis today.   i.e. all societies, which claim 'possession' of 'Western Culture' are in real crisis today, imo.

Have a little patience, we're getting to it, there's more to come, including the confusion caused by mixed cultures in the Western world


Pop songs are taken for granted in Western culture, but how many young folk know that freedom of expression was assured by Western culture, but at the same time fail to realize that pop music is taking over Western philosophy - not a good idea, we need to keep Western philosophy alive



Why Philosophy Should Become More Like Pop Music

When pop music started in a big way in the 1960s, it seemed at times like an especially silly medium, favoured by hormonal school girls and connected up with delinquent and tediously bizarre behaviour.


By contrast, philosophy had a reputation for being deeply serious and impressive – the natural home of the big ambition to understand ourselves and transform the world through ideas.


But since the 1960s, philosophy has stalled and pop has conquered the world. It is now the foremost medium for the articulation of ideas on a mass scale. This explains why, if it is to survive, philosophy must study pop; part of its salvation lies in understanding pop’s techniques so as to be able to become, in crucial ways, a little more like it.

There are a host of critical lessons philosophy can learn from pop. For a start, pop teaches us about charm. The great pop songs are bewitchingly, dazzlingly charming in the manner in which they get their messages across: they know exactly how to wear away our defences and enter our imaginations with easy grace. It’s a reminder that it isn’t enough for ideas to be correct. For them to become powerful and deliver on their promises, they need to know how to win over an audience. Pop is the most seductive force the world has ever known; it has more – and more devoted – adherents than all religions put together. It is more deeply loved, more trusted, and a more constant companion in our joys and sorrows than any other art form.

Read more here ....

https://www.theschooloflife.com/thebookoflife/philosophy-and-pop/ 

Frank wrote on Apr 12^th, 2021 at 9:08pm:

As crap as the OP song.

Not necessarily, the OP song is about brightening your day. Yadda's song is about the excesses and perhaps abuse of Western culture

We don't need either of those, excesses and abuse, but we still need the freedom to express ourselves and put new ideas into action without government interference or censorship ... in other words, free enterprise, innovation and invention, within the law of course, but are excessive laws making it impossible to do anything these days?

Excessive and repressive laws could be dangerous to the survival of Western culture

... is excellent ... I would be content to see it just once....

Once upon a time, in a land far, far away.....

Western Culture once seemed to encourage [personal] responsibility, human reason, and material innovation [i.e. science and its 'method'].

But societies today which claim 'possession' of THE VALUES of what we once knew as 'Western Culture' are, i would argue, 'philosophically' focused upon the pursuit of 1/ hedonism, and 2/ consumption.   ??

And our 'education' systems seem to have been hijacked by social forces [i.e. 'social activists'] whose main objective seems to be; encouraging and teaching individuals how to cheat reasonable laws and reasonable rules and reasonable social conventions,
in order to pursue the '1/ and 2/' without earning the 'credit' to 'legitimately' do so.

I would argue, that today, we [in 'Western' nations] all live in a 'theft' focused society.

i.e.
'You may do anything that you want [i.e. desire] to do.'

'And if anybody pulls you up, and tries to hold you to account for [the consequences of] your actions, ...just insistently argue with them, that they have no right to try to hold you to account [for what you are doing/have done].'

It is LAWLESSNESS.

So called, 'Western societies' [today], are teaching LAWLESSNESS and social irresponsibility [as 'skill sets'], to its own children.

BLM, Greens, Trans activist politics, Extinction Rebellion, Critical Race Theory,     POLITICIANS,    and on, and on.



.



@ Frank, @Reply #9,

Yeah ?

Well excuse me, but i'm just a teenage girl who 'wants to have fun'.        :P

And Lily Allen - The Fear, shows my generation what is really important in this life.



.



"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
- J. Krishnamurti


"Harmony makes small things grow, lack of it makes great things decay."
- Sallust / Bits & Pieces


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Martin Luther King, Jr.


Why It's Called Made In America
Principles to Live By - 1942
1.  You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
2.  You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong
3.  You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
4.  You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
5.  You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence.
6.  You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
7.  You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
8.  You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
9.  You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
10  You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they will not do for themselves.

William J. H. Boetcker, Presbyterian minister, 1942 Source: TruthOrFiction
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/l/lincoln-quotes.htm


"Glory follows virtue as if it were its shadow."
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, Roman Statesman


.



ARGUMENT;
The types of personal values which Western Culture was built upon ---- >


Quote:

What are the most important things in life?  What do the    proverbs, the wise sayings of man through the ages, have to say    on this point?  Let us search them.  If we did so we would come    up with the following list:        - the basic necessities (food and shelter)        - a good wife (or spouse)        - good health        - a good conscience        - a good name        - wisdom, understanding, good sense, spiritual knowledge,            understanding of ourselves and life    Now let us ask another question.  What things are most commonly    pursued by man?  What does the common, ordinary man pursue in    life?  We can list them:        - temporary pleasure (gratification of appetites)        - material possessions, wealth        - social position, being "important"        - friendship, friends, acceptance by a group

http://solitaryroad.com/a398.html



.



Proverbs 29:18
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

A little more on the origins of Western Culture at the time of the Roman Empire, then we can move on to later centuries to see how it develops throughout the ages


These are self explanatory ....

Concepts of what is the West arose out of legacies of the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire. Later, ideas of the West were formed by the concepts of Latin Christendom and the Holy Roman Empire.

What is thought of as Western thought today originates primarily from Greco-Roman and Germanic influences, and includes the ideals of the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment, as well as Christian culture.


Medieval Christianity is credited with creating the modern university, the modern hospital system, scientific economics, and natural law (which would later influence the creation of international law). Christianity played a role in ending practices common among pagan societies, such as human sacrifice, slavery, infanticide and polygamy


Let's not confuse Christianity with the Roman Catholic church. Christianity is a belief system in it's own right. The Roman Catholic church purports to be Christian, but at the end of the day, it's only a church, and hasn't always been Christian

Bias_2012 wrote on Apr 13^th, 2021 at 8:40pm:

A little more on the origins of Western Culture at the time of the Roman Empire, then we can move on to later centuries to see how it develops throughout the ages These are self explanatory .... Concepts of what is the West arose out of legacies of the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire. Later, ideas of the West were formed by the concepts of Latin Christendom and the Holy Roman Empire. What is thought of as Western thought today originates primarily from Greco-Roman and Germanic influences, and includes the ideals of the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment, as well as Christian culture. Medieval Christianity is credited with creating the modern university, the modern hospital system, scientific economics, and natural law (which would later influence the creation of international law). Christianity played a role in ending practices common among pagan societies, such as human sacrifice, slavery, infanticide and polygamy Let's not confuse Christianity with the Roman Catholic church. Christianity is a belief system in it's own right. The Roman Catholic church purports to be Christian, but at the end of the day, it's only a church, and hasn't always been Christian

That last bit is Bbwianesque. Tsk, tsk  ::) ::)

Frank wrote on Apr 14^th, 2021 at 9:33pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Apr 13th, 2021 at 8:40pm: A little more on the origins of Western Culture at the time of the Roman Empire, then we can move on to later centuries to see how it develops throughout the ages These are self explanatory .... Concepts of what is the West arose out of legacies of the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire. Later, ideas of the West were formed by the concepts of Latin Christendom and the Holy Roman Empire. What is thought of as Western thought today originates primarily from Greco-Roman and Germanic influences, and includes the ideals of the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment, as well as Christian culture. Medieval Christianity is credited with creating the modern university, the modern hospital system, scientific economics, and natural law (which would later influence the creation of international law). Christianity played a role in ending practices common among pagan societies, such as human sacrifice, slavery, infanticide and polygamy Let's not confuse Christianity with the Roman Catholic church. Christianity is a belief system in it's own right. The Roman Catholic church purports to be Christian, but at the end of the day, it's only a church, and hasn't always been Christian That last bit is Bbwianesque. Tsk, tsk  ::) ::)

Well the distinction was meant to be that you can be Christian without having to practice Catholicism

The Catholic Church hasnt always been Christian??  That is the Bbwianesque bit.


Peter (Petros, lit. Stone, rock) is what Jesus founded the church. "And I tell you that you are Peter,  and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

You can't be more " always Christian" than that.

Frank wrote on Apr 15^th, 2021 at 11:04am:

The Catholic Church hasnt always been Christian??  That is the Bbwianesque bit. Peter (Petros, lit. Stone, rock) is what Jesus founded the church. "And I tell you that you are Peter,  and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." You can't be more " always Christian" than that.

What has happened to it since then is what I'm talking about. There's been splits, corruption, anti-Semitism, pedophilia, dissent and "authoritarianism"

There's no doubt Christian churches, when they weren't so obstinate, played a big part in the building of Western Culture, but churches have their own separate ideas these days and Christians can decide for themselves which one they'd like to attend.

However, the principles of Christianity remain the same and to many Christians, attending a church isn't really necessary

That said, Christian principles need to be re-taught nowadays as a prerequisite of hanging on to our Western Culture, if we keep taking it for granted, we could lose it, and what is there to replace it? We seem to be gradually reverting back to paganism and selfishness

Far be it from me to play biblical scholar and exegesist but the operative word in that verse in Matthew is 'build'.
The church wasn't completed or perfect at any particular time  - nor demolished. It is, like Christianity, like redemption, always unfolding. Like the common law, Christianity is interpreted now in the light of earlier interpretations. What IS its absolute genious is that it is an immensely fertile, deep and rich and rewarding subject to engage with, study, interpret and absorb. And that goes for its fruits in philosophy, literature, art, whether inspired by its Catholic or protestant interpretation.

Frank wrote on Apr 14^th, 2021 at 9:33pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Apr 13th, 2021 at 8:40pm: Let's not confuse Christianity with the Roman Catholic church. Christianity is a belief system in it's own right. The Roman Catholic church purports to be Christian, but at the end of the day, it's only a church, and hasn't always been Christian That last bit is Bbwianesque. Tsk, tsk  ::) ::)

It's also a nice little "get out" clause. It means that even if something was actively opposed by the church, Bias can still claim it as a "Christian" advance because the person was theoretically a Christian.

J
Yadda wrote on Apr 13^th, 2021 at 3:57pm:

Once upon a time, in a land far, far away..... Western Culture once seemed to encourage [personal] responsibility, human reason, and material innovation [i.e. science and its 'method']. But societies today which claim 'possession' of THE VALUES of what we once knew as 'Western Culture' are, i would argue, 'philosophically' focused upon the pursuit of 1/ hedonism, and 2/ consumption.   ?? And our 'education' systems seem to have been hijacked by social forces [i.e. 'social activists'] whose main objective seems to be; encouraging and teaching individuals how to cheat reasonable laws and reasonable rules and reasonable social conventions, in order to pursue the '1/ and 2/' without earning the 'credit' to 'legitimately' do so. I would argue, that today, we [in 'Western' nations] all live in a 'theft' focused society. i.e. 'You may do anything that you want [i.e. desire] to do.' 'And if anybody pulls you up, and tries to hold you to account for [the consequences of] your actions, ...just insistently argue with them, that they have no right to try to hold you to account [for what you are doing/have done].' It is LAWLESSNESS. So called, 'Western societies' [today], are teaching LAWLESSNESS and social irresponsibility [as 'skill sets'], to its own children. BLM, Greens, Trans activist politics, Extinction Rebellion, Critical Race Theory,     POLITICIANS,    and on, and on.

You dont see this reported by the ABC or The Granuiad.

https://youtu.be/8LHXSgmmhuk

What will Biddenites do?
Biden Education Department Wants To Prioritize Critical Race Theory And 1619 Project In School Curriculum

Now we come to the question of why our culture is called "Western" culture

It's because it's distinguishable from "Eastern" culture ...


"The main difference between eastern and western culture is that people in the east are more traditional and conservative than the people in the west."


Eastern Culture

Eastern world refers to countries in Asia and Middle East. The people in eastern countries are more traditional than people in the West when we consider their rituals, customs, clothing, etc. For example, Indians pay respect to their elders by touching their feet; East Asians use bows as greetings, apologizing and thanking. People in the East are rigid in their ideologies and beliefs; they are often reluctant to challenge and question the long practiced traditions and customs.

In eastern countries, elders are considered as the head of the home and children respect and obey them in all decisions. The important decisions regarding children’s future are usually taken by elders. When parents grow old, the children are expected to look after them.

Arranged marriages are a common phenomenon in eastern countries. They are usually arranged by parents or elders. Factors like education, social status, and family background are considered in these marriages. The concept that love comes after marriage is also promoted by these marriages. Moreover, public displays of affection are often frowned upon in Eastern countries.

Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Shenism, and Taoism are some common religions in these countries. Rituals and customs of different communities may also differ according to these religions.


https://pediaa.com/difference-between-eastern-and-western-culture/


Now, since the introduction of Eastern culture by way of non-discriminatory immigration and multiculturalism, Australia has now, in a sense, two main "competing" cultures, held together by Western rule of Law, Western civil institutions and Western governments

Two main prominent cultures, East and West, being amalgamated under Western influence and law in Western Nations. Will this succeed in the long term?

Bias_2012 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2021 at 3:11pm:

Now we come to the question of why our culture is called "Western" culture It's because it's distinguishable from "Eastern" culture ... Two main prominent cultures, East and West, being amalgamated under Western influence and law in Western Nations. Will this succeed in the long term?

An absurd oversimplification.
To claim there are only two cultures and only one Western law is simply completely incorrect

There are many diverse cultures all over the world and within those cultures many individuals who hold different values.
So called "Western Law" also varies across many countries. Ours is certainly different to the USA which is different to Europe.

There is also the issue of many "Eastern" cultures becoming Westernised due to the USA's cultural impact from the internet and media.

It's an interesting subject but is far more complex than you are giving it credit for

Western Nations (USA, UK, Aust) are more apt at winning Wars than practicing good Medicine.

...and the Middle-East is the best at all things Military too.
The West is just a Police Officer/Politician at the best of it.

Let's take a break with another song .. "Everybody wants to rule the World"

Did you know this song "was banned for broadcast by the BBC for the duration of the first Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991) due to the song's political themes."

I didn't see anything in the lyrics that was politically offensive, perhaps the title of the song didn't please progressive World leaders lol  Oh, maybe these words got under their skin "Nothing ever lasts forever"


https://youtu.be/c8L_hLS21cw

We might be in trouble ....

This BBC article presents senarios of what could happen if Western civilisation begins to collapse or does collapse. The author compares some aspects to the collapse of the Roman Empire

It's interesting and it mirrors the thoughts I've had about about it. Hope you all read it


How Western civilisation could collapse

Some possible precipitating factors are already in place. How the West reacts to them will determine the world’s future, says Rachel Nuwer.

    This story is featured in BBC Future’s “Best of 2017” collection.

The political economist Benjamin Friedman once compared modern Western society to a stable bicycle whose wheels are kept spinning by economic growth. Should that forward-propelling motion slow or cease, the pillars that define our society – democracy, individual liberties, social tolerance and more – would begin to teeter. Our world would become an increasingly ugly place, one defined by a scramble over limited resources and a rejection of anyone outside of our immediate group. Should we find no way to get the wheels back in motion, we’d eventually face total societal collapse.

Such collapses have occurred many times in human history, and no civilisation, no matter how seemingly great, is immune to the vulnerabilities that may lead a society to its end. Regardless of how well things are going in the present moment, the situation can always change. Putting aside species-ending events like an asteroid strike, nuclear winter or deadly pandemic, history tells us that it’s usually a plethora of factors that contribute to collapse. What are they, and which, if any, have already begun to surface? It should come as no surprise that humanity is currently on an unsustainable and uncertain path – but just how close are we to reaching the point of no return?


Read the rest here - a must read ....

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170418-how-western-civilisation-could-collapse

Bias_2012 wrote on May 3^rd, 2021 at 12:01am:

Did you know this song "was banned for broadcast by the BBC for the duration of the first Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991) due to the song's political themes."

The BBC banned a total of 67 songs during the first Gulf War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_songs_banned_by_the_BBC

There shouldn't be any surprise in this, censorship has always been at it's peak during wartime

The_Barnacle wrote on Apr 28^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Apr 25th, 2021 at 3:11pm: Now we come to the question of why our culture is called "Western" culture It's because it's distinguishable from "Eastern" culture ... Two main prominent cultures, East and West, being amalgamated under Western influence and law in Western Nations. Will this succeed in the long term? An absurd oversimplification. To claim there are only two cultures and only one Western law is simply completely incorrect There are many diverse cultures all over the world and within those cultures many individuals who hold different values. So called "Western Law" also varies across many countries. Ours is certainly different to the USA which is different to Europe. There is also the issue of many "Eastern" cultures becoming Westernised due to the USA's cultural impact from the internet and media. It's an interesting subject but is far more complex than you are giving it credit for

Well put. The majority of those who post on this site have next to no understanding of &/or  knowledge of the complex history of what they simplistically refer to as ‘western philosophy’.

Not surprising considering many here suffer from the delusion the US Republicans and Australia’s Herr Morrison are champions of free enterprise. At times I wish Ayn Rand was still with us to tear into such ignorance. Not that I ever supported her in anything other than her metaphysics.

'Western' culture was indeed 'western' - pertaining to the Celtic 'West' rather than the Skandi North, the Slavic East and the Latin South of Europe.

That Celtic 'West' (of tall Anglos and small ranga Saxons) went to North America (fled) and became even more 'Western'.

...except for one thing. Those blue brunette Skandi northerners and grey raven Latin southerners have been ruling Politics through their empowerment of 'Media' for so long, that a mear forray from a Saxon ranga called Trump only seemed to go so far and has now been snuffed away as a UFO conspiracy and all that. Trump never really existed.
So its back to the Blue North (of Europe) and the Grey South (of Europe) - of the Media Alliance back in charge of American 'so-called' Western Politics.
Also known as the Fake (Media) Politics.

...but where a little ranga Saxon fails with his battle-axe to grind and his trophy girl (Melania).
...there is a tall 'real white' Anglo somewhere nearby. ;)

Dopey blue-brunette pussy-whipped Biden can only 'stumble' in his footprints.  ;)

Ayn Marx wrote on May 12^th, 2021 at 1:47pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Apr 28th, 2021 at 12:22pm: Bias_2012 wrote on Apr 25th, 2021 at 3:11pm: Now we come to the question of why our culture is called "Western" culture It's because it's distinguishable from "Eastern" culture ... Two main prominent cultures, East and West, being amalgamated under Western influence and law in Western Nations. Will this succeed in the long term? An absurd oversimplification. To claim there are only two cultures and only one Western law is simply completely incorrect There are many diverse cultures all over the world and within those cultures many individuals who hold different values. So called "Western Law" also varies across many countries. Ours is certainly different to the USA which is different to Europe. There is also the issue of many "Eastern" cultures becoming Westernised due to the USA's cultural impact from the internet and media. It's an interesting subject but is far more complex than you are giving it credit for Well put. The majority of those who post on this site have next to no understanding of &/or  knowledge of the complex history of what they simplistically refer to as ‘western philosophy’. Not surprising considering many here suffer from the delusion the US Republicans and Australia’s Herr Morrison are champions of free enterprise. At times I wish Ayn Rand was still with us to tear into such ignorance. Not that I ever supported her in anything other than her metaphysics.

Let's not snipe at posters while in this thread if you don't mind, please be constructive and only offer some thoughts on the topic at hand

If the name "Western" is used to describe a culture, then it must be distinguishable from something else, in this case, "Eastern", with it's many variations

And I didn't claim there was only two cultures. My claim was that the two main cultures "East" and "West" are being amalgamated under Western influence and law in Western Nations (by way of immigration policies and multiculturalism).

Then I asked the question: "Will this succeed in the long term?"

How will Eastern cultures in Western nations fare while ever they are living under Western influence and Western law? Or aren't they worried. They might want Western laws changed eventually to fit with their cultures, they already have "cultural diversity", will they, at some time, go for "law diversity"?

When Australia calls itself a 'Western' country... down here in the southern and eastern part of the world.
It's either a complete Wank or an absolute fraudulent existence here and a justification of the aboriginal accusation of 'invasion'.

Australia is NOT 'western', no matter how much it tries to con people into believing this. The only 'western' action here is the British and American 'rental' holiday here. All else is Aboriginal... or someone 'else' that will pay in blood to default the previously said three.

Chances are that 'Eastern' Europeans (Slavics) will inherit the future of this part of the world, while the political westerners here (like from british extraction) will be living in poverty and stealing bread, wishing they had gone to the USA (The West) instead. ;)

Bias_2012 wrote on May 12^th, 2021 at 3:36pm:

And I didn't claim there was only two cultures. My claim was that the two main cultures "East" and "West" are being amalgamated under Western influence and law in Western Nations (by way of immigration policies and multiculturalism).

So this thread is just another whinge against multiculturalism. What a surprise  ::)

Your comments are still over-simplistic and reek of the "us" and "them" mentality.
Under a Liberal Western Democracy there are a set of secular laws that everyone has to abide by. Apart from that everyone can live their life as they please. The Government and police have no right to interfere in your religion, sexual preference, dietary preference or recreational activities etc (unless you are breaking a secular law)


Bias_2012 wrote on May 12^th, 2021 at 3:36pm:

How will Eastern cultures in Western nations fare while ever they are living under Western influence and Western law? Or aren't they worried. They might want Western laws changed eventually to fit with their cultures, they already have "cultural diversity", will they, at some time, go for "law diversity"?

 

The old slippery slope fallacy  ;D
We only have to look at history to realize how paranoid and absurd your question is.
For one thing "cultures" don't live in Western nations, "people" do.
Another thing is that Western culture is not set in stone, it changes over time. Our culture now is very different to what it was 50 years ago or 100 years ago.
Remember back to when there was a great deal of rivalry between Catholics and Protestants in Australia.
Also remember when the Greeks and Italians first arrived here and the same things were said about them "they don't assimilate, they are all criminals". Well 3 or 4 generations down the track and we barely notice them any more.  Both cultures ended up changing.

Greeks and Italians were/are Western. They are from the unbroken  sources of Western civilisation.

Comparing them to non-Western immigrants doesnt work.




Quote:

Under a Liberal Western Democracy there are a set of secular laws that everyone has to abide by. Apart from that everyone can live their life as they please. The Government and police have no right to interfere in your religion, sexual preference, dietary preference or recreational activities etc (unless you are breaking a secular law)

That makes it sound like Western  liberal democratic countries are nothing but standard rooms in a hotel.
But a country's culture is not made by the police or the government. There is a whole lot more to any country's culture than its laws at any given time.

Bertie wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 12:18pm:

Greeks and Italians were/are Western. They are from the unbroken  sources of Western civilisation. Comparing them to non-Western immigrants doesnt work.

Yes... Greeks make the claim that their ancient ancestors were the inventors and architects of 'the west' itself (i.e. west of Asia).

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 12:20pm:

Bertie wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 12:18pm: Greeks and Italians were/are Western. They are from the unbroken  sources of Western civilisation. Comparing them to non-Western immigrants doesnt work. Yes... Greeks make the claim that their ancient ancestors were the inventors and architects of 'the west' itself (i.e. west of Asia).

More a statement of fact than a claim.

Bertie wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 12:27pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 12:20pm: Bertie wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 12:18pm: Greeks and Italians were/are Western. They are from the unbroken  sources of Western civilisation. Comparing them to non-Western immigrants doesnt work. Yes... Greeks make the claim that their ancient ancestors were the inventors and architects of 'the west' itself (i.e. west of Asia). More a statement of fact than a claim.

OK... Although the Italians may claim that their ancestors were the co-creators.

Jasin wrote on May 13^th, 2021 at 3:38pm:

When Australia calls itself a 'Western' country... down here in the southern and eastern part of the world. It's either a complete Wank or an absolute fraudulent existence here and a justification of the aboriginal accusation of 'invasion'. Australia is NOT 'western', no matter how much it tries to con people into believing this. The only 'western' action here is the British and American 'rental' holiday here. All else is Aboriginal... or someone 'else' that will pay in blood to default the previously said three. Chances are that 'Eastern' Europeans (Slavics) will inherit the future of this part of the world, while the political westerners here (like from british extraction) will be living in poverty and stealing bread, wishing they had gone to the USA (The West) instead. ;)

Good gear this week eh, I can always tell. Compliments to your dealer.

Bertie wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 12:18pm:

That makes it sound like Western  liberal democratic countries are nothing but standard rooms in a hotel. But a country's culture is not made by the police or the government. There is a whole lot more to any country's culture than its laws at any given time.

No it means that people are free to behave however they please within the law.
That's something that Conservatives have trouble accepting. They have a very narrow minded view of how people are supposed to behave

The_Barnacle wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 1:02pm:

Bertie wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 12:18pm: That makes it sound like Western  liberal democratic countries are nothing but standard rooms in a hotel. But a country's culture is not made by the police or the government. There is a whole lot more to any country's culture than its laws at any given time. No it means that people are free to behave however they please within the law. That's something that Conservatives have trouble accepting. They have a very narrow minded view of how people are supposed to behave

Bad manners is not unlawful. It's  still bad. Ask your mum.

Agatha, the problem with Western culture based on individualism  is its belief in its superiority.

But a rising Eastern one-party meritocracy is about to overtake the current leader of Western democratic culture, in terns of global power.

Why? 

Because elections based on a majority of votes by self-interested individuals (which we all are) result in a 50/50 L-R split in the community, not an efficient method of governance compared with a unified and consistent policy-setting government on behalf of community cohesion and rising living standards.

iBertie wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 1:14pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 1:02pm: Bertie wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 12:18pm: That makes it sound like Western  liberal democratic countries are nothing but standard rooms in a hotel. But a country's culture is not made by the police or the government. There is a whole lot more to any country's culture than its laws at any given time. No it means that people are free to behave however they please within the law. That's something that Conservatives have trouble accepting. They have a very narrow minded view of how people are supposed to behave Bad manners is not unlawful. It's  still bad. Ask your mum.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 3:11pm:

Agatha, the problem with Western culture based on individualism  is its belief in its superiority. But a rising Eastern one-party meritocracy is about to overtake the current leader of Western democratic culture, in terns of global power. Why?  Because elections based on a majority of votes by self-interested individuals (which we all are) result in a 50/50 L-R split in the community, not an efficient method of governance compared with a unified and consistent policy-setting government on behalf of community cohesion and rising living standards.

Chine is not a meritocracy.
China also believes in its own superiority - so that's no argument.

To hell with a one party dictatorship that tells me what to think and say and do because it knows better. Such places are invariably run by corrupt, mediocre psychos who imagine themselves the custodians of others.


China has over a billion people and the first Nobel Prize to a Chinese who actually lived and worked in China was in 2010. And that was th Nobel Peace Prize. It's a close-minded, stupid society, lorded over by  thin-skinned bullies and notorious thieves of intellectual property. Unless watched like a hawke by Western companies they mass-produce a load of shoddy crap and add an earful of febrile rhetoric.
I don't want a bar of if nor am I seduced by their propaganda.

Bertie wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 1:14pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 1:02pm: Bertie wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 12:18pm: That makes it sound like Western  liberal democratic countries are nothing but standard rooms in a hotel. But a country's culture is not made by the police or the government. There is a whole lot more to any country's culture than its laws at any given time. No it means that people are free to behave however they please within the law. That's something that Conservatives have trouble accepting. They have a very narrow minded view of how people are supposed to behave Bad manners is not unlawful. It's  still bad. Ask your mum.

So bad manners will be the downfall of Western Culture  ;D

This is some Western Culture from the 19th Century

Quote:

In crossing the street a lady should gracefully raise her dress a little above her ankle with one hand. To raise the dress with both hands is vulgar

You can just imagine what they think of people's behaviour today

Bertie wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 4:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 3:11pm: Agatha, the problem with Western culture based on individualism  is its belief in its superiority. But a rising Eastern one-party meritocracy is about to overtake the current leader of Western democratic culture, in terns of global power. Why?  Because elections based on a majority of votes by self-interested individuals (which we all are) result in a 50/50 L-R split in the community, not an efficient method of governance compared with a unified and consistent policy-setting government on behalf of community cohesion and rising living standards. Chine is not a meritocracy. China also believes in its own superiority - so that's no argument. To hell with a one party dictatorship that tells me what to think and say and do because it knows better. Such places are invariably run by corrupt, mediocre psychos who imagine themselves the custodians of others.

True.

These pro-CSNSP posters here are either woefully ignorant of even recent history or (more likely) their posts are heavily censored to avoid 'offending' the CSNSP.

Even a quick google would tell them that their regime is practising a frankensteinian amalgam of European totalitarianism (Stalinism and National Socialism), of which we're all aware and more than mindful of the cost to the world to rid it of these diseases... But, then, google is banned in China, so...

Agatha says China is not a meritocracy.

Well don't let's worry about labels then, and instead stick to the facts, eg,  China has raised its huge population out of absolute poverty at a faster rate than any nation in history.

"China also believes in its own superiority - so that's no argument".

No, China believes  its current one-party rule backed by the nation's ablest minds will produce the fastest development. China has no desire to enforce its own system on the West; and why would they, when they can see the results of the US's adversarial two-party hyper-partisan rabble which can't even decide how to build and pay for a high-speed rail system... despite being the richest  nation on the planet (but not for much longer: economists estimate China's economy will exceed the US within a decade).   

"To hell with a one party dictatorship that tells me what to think and say and do because it knows better."

You of course  know better than people who are experts in whatever field is relevant .....resulting in (as I noted) rule by blind-leading-the-blind, unstable, bare majorities in Left or Right coalitions  devoted to getting themselves re-elected in the next election, rather than adopting consistent 5 years plans to maximize the nation's sustainable development.

"Such places are invariably run by corrupt, mediocre psychos who imagine themselves the custodians of others".

Did you have Trump in mind?

"China has over a billion people and the first Nobel Prize to a Chinese who actually lived and worked in China was in 2010. And that was th Nobel Peace Prize. It's a close-minded, stupid society, lorded over by  thin-skinned bullies and notorious thieves of intellectual property. Unless watched like a hawke by Western companies they mass-produce a load of shoddy crap and add an earful of febrile rhetoric.
I don't want a bar of if nor am I seduced by their propaganda."

Whew... be my guest and stick with "progress" via your democracy rabble: btw, today China became only the 2nd nation to successfully land a rover on Mars - not too shabby technology, I would say...

thegreatdivide wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 3:11pm:

Agatha, the problem with Western culture based on individualism  is its belief in its superiority. But a rising Eastern one-party meritocracy is about to overtake the current leader of Western democratic culture, in terns of global power. Why? Because elections based on a majority of votes by self-interested individuals (which we all are) result in a 50/50 L-R split in the community, not an efficient method of governance compared with a unified and consistent policy-setting government on behalf of community cohesion and rising living standards.

Are you suggesting we abandon Western democracy and adopt an Eastern influenced one party authoritarian system instead?



thegreatdivide wrote on May 14^th, 2021 at 3:11pm:

elections based on a majority of votes by self-interested individuals (which we all are) result in a 50/50 L-R split in the community

This conflicts with what Barnacle said, he said, and I quote, ".... people are free to behave however they please within the law"

How do you view this statement by Barnacle?

If you agree with it, do you think we could still do as we please under one-party authoritarian rule?



How would this go down in Australia? ...

"Never talk about uncomfortable or politically sensitive topics (in China)"


China bans things we wouldn't even be thinking about ...

"From the days of Mao Zedong to present, repressive legislation has resulted in some rigid and often downright bizarre bans."
https://www.ranker.com/list/everything-banned-in-china/ranker-news

Bias_2012 wrote on May 30^th, 2021 at 2:02pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 3:11pm: elections based on a majority of votes by self-interested individuals (which we all are) result in a 50/50 L-R split in the community This conflicts with what Barnacle said, he said, and I quote, ".... people are free to behave however they please within the law" How do you view this statement by Barnacle? If you agree with it, do you think we could still do as we please under one-party authoritarian rule?

It doesn't conflict with what i said
people can do as they please, at the moment that happens to be very polarised thanks mostly to media (social, mainstream and fringe)

The_Barnacle wrote on Jun 1^st, 2021 at 3:56pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on May 30th, 2021 at 2:02pm: thegreatdivide wrote on May 14th, 2021 at 3:11pm: elections based on a majority of votes by self-interested individuals (which we all are) result in a 50/50 L-R split in the community This conflicts with what Barnacle said, he said, and I quote, ".... people are free to behave however they please within the law" How do you view this statement by Barnacle? If you agree with it, do you think we could still do as we please under one-party authoritarian rule? It doesn't conflict with what i said people can do as they please, at the moment that happens to be very polarised thanks mostly to media (social, mainstream and fringe)

It conflicts in the way that he (thegreatdivide) is suggesting, by implication, that self-interested individuals voting in elections results in inefficient governing, and that we should have a Chinese style one party rule with 5 year plans

Your generalized statement suggests we can vote for whom ever we like and for whatever we like ... the conclusion from this would be that we are: "self-interested" individuals

The question for you is now; Do you agree or disagree with what thegreatdivide has been posting?

The expression Western culture is an oxymoron.

The West has no culture, they stole and misappropriated culture from others.

The Greeks stole it from the Arabs, the Romans stole it from the Greeks, the UK stole it from the Romans, everybody stole from the Chinese.

The only self-developed and self-owned culture the West has is theft.

America became a black hole for culture and a culture laundry. They took beautiful intelligent culture and culture washed it into a bland featureless blob.

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jun 1^st, 2021 at 8:14pm:

The Greeks stole it from the Arabs, the Romans stole it from the Greeks, the UK stole it from the Romans, everybody stole from the Chinese

You'd need to show proof of that, beyond gunpowder and the abacus

What we have here is an example of an "Eastern" culture getting upset with another "Eastern" culture ... in our Western style Democracy of freedom where supposedly people are free to do as they wish provided they stay within the law


Blacktown City Council apologizes to muslim community for a Hindu celebration held in Blacktown in Western Sydney

https://www.amust.com.au/2020/08/blacktown-council-apologises-for-hindutva-celebrations/


The celebration was for something that happened in India, not Australia. This was all about a clash between Hindus and muslims in India over some disputed land and the Hindus are going to build a temple on it

The Hindu celebration in Blacktown was a "turning of the sod" celebration for that temple  ... and it caused disharmony in multicultural Blacktown. To mend the rift, Blacktown City Council apologized to Keysar Trad and the muslim community

https://www.afic.com.au/2020/08/offensive-celebrations-in-support-of-hindutva-extremism/ 


Was any law broken? not that I could see. But we now know there is this lasting tension between Hindus and Muslims in Australia, over a foreign dispute, in India

So Blacktown City Council must be learning a lesson about all this .... Don't allow multicultural celebrations caused by foreign disputes, to take place on Council property

Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 1^st, 2021 at 8:04pm:

The question for you is now; Do you agree or disagree with what thegreatdivide has been posting?

I agree with some of it, I disagree with some of it
I know that wont be happy with that response. Like all Right wingers you prefer to see the world in a simplistic, binary "us vs them" way. It's probably why you start so many wars.


Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 9^th, 2021 at 12:47am:

What we have here is an example of an "Eastern" culture getting upset with another "Eastern" culture ... in our Western style Democracy of freedom where supposedly people are free to do as they wish provided they stay within the law

What we have here is an example of why your simplistic East vs West is so absurd.
Do you really expect old animosities to just disappear? It's much like the old rivalries between Catholics and Protestants that were brought over here from the United Kingdom. Or is that acceptable to you because it is part of Western Culture

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jun 1^st, 2021 at 8:14pm:

The expression Western culture is an oxymoron. The West has no culture, they stole and misappropriated culture from others. The Greeks stole it from the Arabs, the Romans stole it from the Greeks, the UK stole it from the Romans, everybody stole from the Chinese. The only self-developed and self-owned culture the West has is theft. America became a black hole for culture and a culture laundry. They took beautiful intelligent culture and culture washed it into a bland featureless blob.

I am sensing moronic rage....

The_Barnacle wrote on Jun 9^th, 2021 at 10:42pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 1st, 2021 at 8:04pm: The question for you is now; Do you agree or disagree with what thegreatdivide has been posting? I agree with some of it, I disagree with some of it I know that wont be happy with that response. Like all Right wingers you prefer to see the world in a simplistic, binary "us vs them" way. It's probably why you start so many wars.

You're being presumptuous, I'm not a Right winger and I'd be more than happy if you explained what you agree with, and what you don't agree with in thegreatdivide's posts




Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 9^th, 2021 at 12:47am:

What we have here is an example of an "Eastern" culture getting upset with another "Eastern" culture ... in our Western style Democracy of freedom where supposedly people are free to do as they wish provided they stay within the law

The Barnacle Wrote

Quote:

What we have here is an example of why your simplistic East vs West is so absurd. Do you really expect old animosities to just disappear? It's much like the old rivalries between Catholics and Protestants that were brought over here from the United Kingdom. Or is that acceptable to you because it is part of Western Culture

Yes, I expect old animosities to quickly wane then disappear .. in Australia. There's no need for them. If the Catholics and Protestants were a problem, then why should we have any more rivalries that disturb the peace?

In the case of the Blacktown City Council dispute, one of the belligerents had a "win", and it doesn't matter which one it was, because it should have been assured that both "lost". In other words, it would have been more prudent for the long term peace and harmony if Blacktown Council had just admitted their mistake of holding the Hindu celebration on Council property, and then .... tell the belligerents to "put their swords away, and keep them away, and don't let your foreign disputes poison the general Australian community"

As it was, one had a win, by way of receiving an apology. The other had a lose, by having to extend the apology. That, I'm sure, only exacerbated the animosity between the two.




The_Barnacle wrote on Jun 9^th, 2021 at 10:42pm:

simplistic East vs West is so absurd.

It is simplified for a reason, for the purpose of readily identifying the two main cultures, that of the Western European culture (of Western Nations), and that of the extended Eastern Asian culture (from Turkey to China). It will only get too complicated if we converse about all the different varieties, it's not necessary in this thread

Now if you wish to talk about Western Culture, please go ahead, but I'd appreciate it if you would desist from sniping at me, or anyone else. I neither want to talk about Left, or Right politics in here, unless it assists in the conversation about determining the future outcome of Australia's Liberal Democracy (without referring to any particular political personality in Parliament, or any poster in on these boards)

Question: What do you think about our Liberal Democracy, will it last, will it become less "Liberal" over time? What are your thoughts on that subject?

Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 9^th, 2021 at 12:47am:

What we have here is an example of an "Eastern" culture getting upset with another "Eastern" culture ... in our Western style Democracy of freedom where supposedly people are free to do as they wish provided they stay within the law Blacktown City Council apologizes to muslim community for a Hindu celebration held in Blacktown in Western Sydney https://www.amust.com.au/2020/08/blacktown-council-apologises-for-hindutva-celebrations/ The celebration was for something that happened in India, not Australia. This was all about a clash between Hindus and muslims in India over some disputed land and the Hindus are going to build a temple on it The Hindu celebration in Blacktown was a "turning of the sod" celebration for that temple  ... and it caused disharmony in multicultural Blacktown. To mend the rift, Blacktown City Council apologized to Keysar Trad and the muslim community https://www.afic.com.au/2020/08/offensive-celebrations-in-support-of-hindutva-extremism/  Was any law broken? not that I could see. But we now know there is this lasting tension between Hindus and Muslims in Australia, over a foreign dispute, in India So Blacktown City Council must be learning a lesson about all this .... Don't allow multicultural celebrations caused by foreign disputes, to take place on Council property

And note the irony that it was so named for its early inhabitants. Perhaps it would be more PC to rename it Indigenoustown.

Bias_2012 wrote on May 30^th, 2021 at 2:02pm:

Are you suggesting we abandon Western democracy and adopt an Eastern influenced one party authoritarian system instead?

No, I'm suggesting we engage in a friendly competition with China., especially since most Chinese are very satisfied with their government which has lifted more people out of poverty at a faster rate than any nation in history.


Quote:

This conflicts with what Barnacle said, he said, and I quote, ".... people are free to behave however they please within the law" How do you view this statement by Barnacle?

I view it as equally applicable in Australia or China.


Quote:

If you agree with it, do you think we could still do as we please under one-party authoritarian ru?

No, the law will be different, but "freedom" is in the eye of the beholder, especially if essential living costs of low-wage workers  are subsidized by the government as they are in China.  eg, the US has the largest prison population in the world because of unmet social need in the 'Land of the Free'....


Quote:

How would this go down in Australia? ...

Elimination of poverty and homelessness would go down very well in Australis, but both political parties are signed up to the evil neoliberal economic system currently holding sway in the Western world.


Quote:

China bans things we wouldn't even be thinking about ...

Thats' correct ...things we wouldn't even be thinking about ..so hardly on the level of eradicating eg, homelessness. I read your link, trashy stuff , can't hug Winnie the Pooh...big deal. But the article was wrong on Bitcoin, China did not ban it (even though it's only a ponzi currency that has been caught up in some recent criminal cases).

IMO, the  systemic poverty rife in Oz (eg 1 in 6 kids living in poverty)  is the greatest of human rights abuses, you can keep your worthless  fake "freedom" to hug Winnie the Pooh.
 

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 12^th, 2021 at 10:17pm:

Quote: How would this go down in Australia? ... Elimination of poverty and homelessness would go down very well in Australis, but both political parties are signed up to the evil neoliberal economic system currently holding sway in the Western world.

You'll need to go back and read that bit again


It was thus ....


How would this go down in Australia? ...
"Never talk about uncomfortable or politically sensitive topics (in China)" (Advice for tourists when visiting China)


Imagine us Aussies never talking about uncomfortable or politically sensitive topics here at home - we'd all die!

Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 12^th, 2021 at 10:54pm:

You'll need to go back and read that bit again It was thus .... How would this go down in Australia? ... "Never talk about uncomfortable or politically sensitive topics (in China)" (Advice for tourists when visiting China) Imagine us Aussies never talking about uncomfortable or politically sensitive topics here at home - we'd all die!

Comfortable conservatives might  feel good spouting hot air about  their blind-leading-the-blind democracies. Chinese prefer results. Chinese youngsters are well aware of the fake "freedoms" offered by the democracies, and even  kids in the democracies aren't sure if democracy is a good form of government these days.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2021 at 8:46pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 12th, 2021 at 10:54pm: You'll need to go back and read that bit again It was thus .... How would this go down in Australia? ... "Never talk about uncomfortable or politically sensitive topics (in China)" (Advice for tourists when visiting China) Imagine us Aussies never talking about uncomfortable or politically sensitive topics here at home - we'd all die! Comfortable conservatives might  feel good spouting hot air about  their blind-leading-the-blind democracies. Chinese prefer results. Chinese youngsters are well aware of the fake "freedoms" offered by the democracies, and even  kids in the democracies aren't sure if democracy is a good form of government these days.

The Chinese regime prefers death to minorities and no freedoms to those who survive that is not in the service of the regime...

You know it's true... Western people are not the blinded masses that the Chinese regime has inflicted on its own people.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2021 at 8:46pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 12th, 2021 at 10:54pm: You'll need to go back and read that bit again It was thus .... How would this go down in Australia? ... "Never talk about uncomfortable or politically sensitive topics (in China)" (Advice for tourists when visiting China) Imagine us Aussies never talking about uncomfortable or politically sensitive topics here at home - we'd all die! Comfortable conservatives might  feel good spouting hot air about  their blind-leading-the-blind democracies. Chinese prefer results. Chinese youngsters are well aware of the fake "freedoms" offered by the democracies, and even  kids in the democracies aren't sure if democracy is a good form of government these days.

I think you are making this up as you go along, how many Chinese kids have you interviewed?

rhino wrote on Jun 15^th, 2021 at 9:00pm:

I think you are making this up as you go along, how many Chinese kids have you interviewed?

 
Google: support for the CCP in China.

" On the whole, the younger generation of China has more confidence in China's future and the CCP is gaining more support from the young. With increasing opportunities for development in China, young generation in China have their own dreams and their dream is also a part of the China..." …

and google: young people don't think democracy is the best form of government.

"More and more people in the West are losing faith in democracy. And the younger they are, the worse the trend.

Harvard lecturer Yascha Mounk and Roberto Stefan Foa, a political scientist at the University of Melbourne in Australia, have published a study which looks at decades worth of data on attitudes towards democracy, revealing some alarming results".

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 16^th, 2021 at 4:50pm:

Google: support for the CCP in China. [/i]

Thanks Yadda

Time for another break

Who doesn't like listening to the lovely Sarah Brightman?

Here she is singing "Time to say goodbye" with Andre Bocelli.

The song was commissioned for the closing ceremony of the 1992 Barcelona Olympic Games. At that time, Sarah and José Carreras performed the song together


https://youtu.be/4L_yCwFD6Jo

Bias_2012 wrote on Jun 17^th, 2021 at 4:25am:

Time for another break Who doesn't like listening to the lovely Sarah Brightman? Here she is singing "Time to say goodbye" with Andre Bocelli. The song was commissioned for the closing ceremony of the 1992 Barcelona Olympic Games. At that time, Sarah and José Carreras performed the song together https://youtu.be/4L_yCwFD6Jo

Thanks, Western technology and music...wonderful; and yet some ME Islamic music is equally transcendent.

The repository of Western culture, the British and French museums are collections of artifacts stolen from other countries.

Western culture is one of theft. Theft of other people's culture.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 18^th, 2021 at 12:18pm:

hanks, Western technology and music...wonderful; and yet some ME Islamic music is equally transcendent.

It's not a matter of transcending or competing, it's a matter of evaluating how Eastern Culture will mix with Western Culture over the long term in Australia. Will they mix well, or will they mix badly?, given all the differences between the two. Or will variants in both the main cultures eventually separate and live according to their own customs and peculiarities of their groups?



Here's a fairly lighthearted survey of Japanese girls about dating Western men .... "worried about religious and cultural differences"



https://youtu.be/SGld2qRUV60


Post some Islamic music if you wish

Laugh till you cry wrote on Jun 18^th, 2021 at 12:58pm:

The repository of Western culture, the British and French museums are collections of artifacts stolen from other countries. Western culture is one of theft. Theft of other people's culture.

And you are 'other people'?

Stop using English, then, cultural appropriator, if you are so resentful of Britain.
And put the bone back through your nose, there's a good thobbin' knob.

Advice for all of you who missed out on a proper education on the bedrock of your culture, psychology, literature and imagination.

Start at lecture one and work your way through. Take notes. You will not regret it. Ignore the knockers. Listen and think for yourself.


https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/category/transcripts/biblical-series/

Bertie wrote on Jun 30^th, 2021 at 9:01pm:

Advice for all of you who missed out on a proper education on the bedrock of your culture, psychology, literature and imagination. Start at lecture one and work your way through. Take notes. You will not regret it. Ignore the knockers. Listen and think for yourself. https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/category/transcripts/biblical-series/

That's a bit deep Agatha, I can only get a basic outline of what he's saying, however, I'll keep listening

He is a clinical psychologist who has read Jung, Milton, Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn and a lot of neuroscience and literature.
He is speaking to young people who can't get enough of the stuff because they never hear it in school or uni.

I think it's easy to understand but there is a lot of depth, as you say.

It is like Jung, a doctor and a sage, lecturing on the Bible as an expression of the  human condition. It's stupendous.

Bertie wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2021 at 5:52pm:

He is a clinical psychologist who has read Jung, Milton, Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn and a lot of neuroscience and literature. He is speaking to young people who can't get enough of the stuff because they never hear it in school or uni. I think it's easy to understand but there is a lot of depth, as you say. It is like Jung, a doctor and a sage, lecturing on the Bible as an expression of the  human condition. It's stupendous.

..because it reinforces your ideology?

Paul Thagard Ph.D.
Feb. 14th. 2018.

Jordan Peterson’s Flimsy Philosophy of Life
Peterson’s claims about morality, reality, and the meaning of life are dubious.

"But philosophers since Plato have recognized many problems with basing ethics on religion. First, different religions have different prescriptions, and Peterson gives no argument why Christianity is morally superior to Islam, Hinduism, or dozens of alternatives. Even within Christianity, there is much disagreement among Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons. For morality to be based on religion, you need to be able to make a reasonable decision concerning which religion to choose.

Least of all the Old Testament, imbued by the evil spirit of genocide, and hence rejected by Marcion as the basis of the New Testament relating the story of the "Prince of Peace". 

You will learn a lot more from Petersen than from Thagard.
Petersen's lectures on the Bible, which I recommended, take a rationalist, scientific  view and also take literature, myths and biblical exegesis seriously. He has read Jung and Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky carefully. He is a scientist and not a propagandist of anything, you are not required to agree with him and you will not be deplatformed or ostracised if you disagree with him.

Either way, he will make you think in a way that Thagard article in Psychology Today doesn't.

Bertie wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2021 at 3:51pm:

You will learn a lot more from Petersen than from Thagard. Petersen's lectures on the Bible, which I recommended, take a rationalist, scientific  view and also take literature, myths and biblical exegesis seriously. He has read Jung and Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky carefully. He is a scientist and not a propagandist of anything, you are not required to agree with him and you will not be deplatformed or ostracised if you disagree with him. Either way, he will make you think in a way that Thagard article in Psychology Today doesn't.

I'd need some specific points to discuss with him, eg his views on a one-party meritocracy cf adversarial two party democracy.

I recall being repelled by his political stance (a decade ago), but I don't recall why.

Eg I reject elevating individual rights above community development......I'm almost certain he rejects that stance.   

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 4^th, 2021 at 4:58pm:

Bertie wrote on Jul 3rd, 2021 at 3:51pm: You will learn a lot more from Petersen than from Thagard. Petersen's lectures on the Bible, which I recommended, take a rationalist, scientific  view and also take literature, myths and biblical exegesis seriously. He has read Jung and Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky carefully. He is a scientist and not a propagandist of anything, you are not required to agree with him and you will not be deplatformed or ostracised if you disagree with him. Either way, he will make you think in a way that Thagard article in Psychology Today doesn't. I'd need some specific points to discuss with him, eg his views on a one-party meritocracy cf adversarial two party democracy. I recall being repelled by his political stance (a decade ago), but I don't recall why. Eg I reject elevating individual rights above community development......I'm almost certain he rejects that stance.

Yes, I imagine he would reject it because it is a false dichotomy.  Individual rights and freedoms are good because they benefit everyone ("community development").  Oppresing individuality for the collective is not development.

Importantly, not everything in life is a political struggle for the collective or against it even if Communist parties frame existence like that. Life is a lot sweeter than that.

Bertie wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2021 at 5:52pm:

He is a clinical psychologist who has read Jung, Milton, Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn and a lot of neuroscience and literature. He is speaking to young people who can't get enough of the stuff because they never hear it in school or uni.

He's an over educated junkie with a chip on his shoulder who preaches to the converted.

John Smith wrote on Jul 4^th, 2021 at 5:27pm:

Bertie wrote on Jul 2nd, 2021 at 5:52pm: He is a clinical psychologist who has read Jung, Milton, Nietzsche, Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn and a lot of neuroscience and literature. He is speaking to young people who can't get enough of the stuff because they never hear it in school or uni. He's an over educated junkie with a chip on his shoulder who preaches to the converted.

What are your imperfections (being educated or widely read and being thoughtful obviously aren't fault of yours)?

If you could identify a single idea of Petersen's that you disagree with and could explain why you disagree with it - well, then you wouldn't be you. But until then you are just stuck being the know-nothing snarler.

I side with Western civilisation in opposition to karnal, mothra et al who want to make it out to be inferior to other cultures because those others are not produced by mostly Europeans.  I have consistently said that no race or sex is excluded from Western civilisation and that is because its Christian foundational tenets.
It is karnal, mothra and others who equate the West with whiteness only to drag it down and vilify it as white supremacist civilisation.

Bertie wrote on Jul 5^th, 2021 at 1:31pm:

I side with Western civilisation in opposition to karnal, mothra et al who want to make it out to be inferior to other cultures because those others are not produced by mostly Europeans.  I have consistently said that no race or sex is excluded from Western civilisation and that is because its Christian foundational tenets. It is karnal, mothra and others who equate the West with whiteness only to drag it down and vilify it as white supremacist civilisation.

x2 Agatha ... but let's not mention ID names in the sense that it could provoke discord

Omitting any unwitting provocation, as I believe it was in your case, you have described the West exactly as I feel about it, but then again, that's how the West is anyway ... welcoming, but as long as it's not recognized as an enemy, or an easy target ... this is where things have gone wrong of late

Far too many of us are taking it for granted, but it's so ingrained in us, we go about our business without properly realizing we still live in a foundational and fundamental Western cultural society. What would we do without it?, that is the question. It's not only second nature to us, it goes to our very core of being, it would be very difficult to erase it from our souls

Here's some lite entertainment from a man in the street .. err railway station, that demonstrates in a small way what you have been saying, and what we all subconsciously or otherwise believe ....


https://youtu.be/g-Vr-7eQPiQ

Thanks.


I put this here from another thread. I think it is more a philosophical than merely geopolitical topic.
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1620441034/200#200



That Western civilisation is diverse and fruitful in so many areas is precisely due to its openness and that is what makes it a universalist, not a particularist, civilisation. It is a generator of new ideas (including bad ideas like Marxism or Nazism and many others) and inventions like no other civilisation. That is one of its most significant aspects, distinguishing it from other traditions.

The Frankfurt School, Churchill, Christianity, Marxism, capitalism, liberalism, experimental scientific thinking and industrialisation,  socialism, modernity, post-modernity, human rights, etc ALL, without exception,  originate from Western civilisation and no other culture.

Other cultures adopt them, learn from them, partake in them. For example, the Chinese Communist Party's ideology originates from a German-Jewish layabout's misinterpretations of Adam Smith, Hegel and French philosophy, with a large dose of a Russian layabout's political tactics. Marxist Leninist ideology originates in the Western tradition, not in China or Korea or Vietnam.  This also illustrates than not every idea is good just because it is generated in the Western intellectual tradition.

Bertie wrote on Jul 4^th, 2021 at 5:23pm:

Yes, I imagine he would reject it because it is a false dichotomy.  Individual rights and freedoms are good because they benefit everyone ("community development").  Oppresing individuality for the collective is not development.

There's your mistake.  Individuals are self-interested first, by nature; the task of government is to adjudicate between those self-interests, to avoid anarchy.

And as for development, China has built the world's largest HS rail network, while rich countries like Oz and the US haven't built one kilometre of track...and Biden still can't get his infrastructure proposals through Congress...so much for "oppressing" individuals...


Quote:

Importantly, not everything in life is a political struggle for the collective or against it even if Communist parties frame existence like that. Life is a lot sweeter than that.

Only sweeter for comfortable conservatives like yourself, who are not caught up in the systemic poverty of our neoliberal economic systems with eg, its absurd NAIRU dogma.

Nor the disastrous effects of the cultural destruction of black cultures ....which had to happen, but which we now must solve, as opposed to blaming the victims of that cultural destruction for their present poverty. 

If you want to learn about a way forward re this last point, see the youtube video of the discussion between Bill Mitchell and Noel Pearson.








[/quote]

Well, I am not buying your way of looking at individuals or governments.  Yours is a way of seeing that is  approved by the Chinese communist party but I do not approve of the CCP or its way of seeing things and conducting itself internally or externally.
China has even greater disparity than Australia between its super rich and its rural poor.  The way the Chinese exploit EACH OTHER and others is eyewatering. The life of the mind under the CCP is straightjacketed.  The idiotic propaganda blather must be suffocating.

Yes, the Western system enables its underminers and enemies to flourish within Western countries and to even get into the education system, state media and universities while communists like China and other totalitarians like Iran ruthlessly silence and kill their opponents. But free enquiry, free speech and free exchange of ideas is a supreme good.   
Far more important than material wealth and consumerism, which the Chinese seem to channel their energies into since they cannot channel it into anything else, such as the sweeter things of life a free mind discovers and pursues.
You can have all the Gucci and designer consumer goods the CCP makes available to the Chinese as long as they shut up and obey.

Not for me, no,  thanks.

Bertie wrote on Jul 6^th, 2021 at 5:26pm:

Well, I am not buying your way of looking at individuals or governments.  Yours is a way of seeing that is  approved by the Chinese communist party but I do not approve of the CCP or its way of seeing things and conducting itself internally or externally. China has even greater disparity than Australia between its super rich and its rural poor.  The way the Chinese exploit EACH OTHER and others is eyewatering. The life of the mind under the CCP is straightjacketed.  The idiotic propaganda blather must be suffocating.

On the contrary, many nations are now looking to understand how China has achieved the fastest rate of poverty reduction in history. [Hint: it's a combination of free-market and state-planning principles]. resulting in high rates of satisfaction with government in China, cf increasing polarization in Western democracies (although in Oz the choice is between tweedle-dum and treedlr-dee; both parties are useless, unable to close the disgraceful "aboriginal gap' nor entrenched poverty among other groups.

[quote]Yes, the Western system enables its underminers and enemies to flourish within Western countries and to even get into the education system, state media and universities[/quote]

Enemies? you mean people with ideas which could actually improve peoples' lives...but comfortable conservatives like yourself don't want to learn.


Quote:

while communists like China and other totalitarians like Iran ruthlessly silence and kill their opponents. But free enquiry, free speech and free exchange of ideas is a supreme good.

 

Depends on the quality of the "free-speech". Iran is a deluded theocracy, China is not.


Quote:

Far more important than material wealth and consumerism, which the Chinese seem to channel their energies into since they cannot channel it into anything else, such as the sweeter things of life a free mind discovers and pursues.

Science and art are as lively in China as in the West.


Quote:

You can have all the Gucci and designer consumer goods the CCP makes available to the Chinese as long as they shut up and obey.

while you prefer a system in which entrenched poverty is accepted as normal


Quote:

Not for me, no,  thanks.

Well ok; and China is quite happy to leave you with your fake "freedom" delusions, China is not forcing its system onto anyone else outside of Chinese sovereignty, because China knows it will achieve - by 2049 -  a prosperous socialist society you will be begging to emulate....

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 6^th, 2021 at 4:08pm:

Nor the disastrous effects of the cultural destruction of black cultures ....which had to happen

Careful! - you are displaying your self-interest there

Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 9^th, 2021 at 9:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 6th, 2021 at 4:08pm: Nor the disastrous effects of the cultural destruction of black cultures ....which had to happen Careful! - you are displaying your self-interest there

By "had to happen", I mean the natural tendency in history of technologically superior cultures to subsume those who cannot resist militarily, nothing to do with MY self-interest.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2021 at 1:17pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 9th, 2021 at 9:09pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 6th, 2021 at 4:08pm: Nor the disastrous effects of the cultural destruction of black cultures ....which had to happen Careful! - you are displaying your self-interest there By "had to happen", I mean the natural tendency in history of technologically superior cultures to subsume those who cannot resist militarily, nothing to do with MY self-interest.

So you won't mind if the regime is undone by its own stupidity combined with the world's containment of it, then.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 10^th, 2021 at 1:25pm:

So you won't mind if the regime is undone by its own stupidity combined with the world's containment of it, then.

?? i was referring to native cultures being subsumed by technologically superior (mostly European) cultures.  (Again your blind democracy ideology results in your failure to understand the point being made .....or you are just wasting time spinning more delusional  narratives).
FYI, half the world is studying the success of the CCP, while the other half is shocked by the increasing hyper-partisanship in the world's most powerful democracy.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 9^th, 2021 at 7:46pm:

Depends on the quality of the "free-speech". Iran is a deluded theocracy, China is not.

China's cult of XI and the CCP is as delusional as the ayatollah's totalitarianism. 


Quote:

Science and art are as lively in China as in the West.

As long as you toe the CCP line aand think approved thoughts and glorify XI and the CCP.



Quote:

China is not forcing its system onto anyone else outside of Chinese sovereignty, because China knows it will achieve - by 2049 -  a prosperous socialist society you will be begging to emulate....

Except HK, Taiwan, and trying to ensnare Australia, Asia, Africa etc.

China is where it is because it lied and cheated and stole and because the West was greedy and stupid to let it get away with the lies and the cheating and the stealing in exchange for cheap rubbish.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2021 at 1:17pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 9th, 2021 at 9:09pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 6th, 2021 at 4:08pm: Nor the disastrous effects of the cultural destruction of black cultures ....which had to happen Careful! - you are displaying your self-interest there By "had to happen", I mean the natural tendency in history of technologically superior cultures to subsume those who cannot resist militarily, nothing to do with MY self-interest.

Well now we have China subsuming cultures who can't resist militarily. You take an interest in China don't you? Where did they get their high technology from? All the theories and formulae for their space craft, for example, originated in Germany. A successful guidance system for rockets was developed by Von Braun and his scientists (leaving aside Nazism). China and every other rocket launching nation has copied that technology

The Japanese learned all about Western technology and used it in their war effort

Russia was able to short-cut their jet engine development when Roll Royce foolishly sold them some of their operational engines. The Russians were handed the British jet engine technology on a plate, and replicated it

There may not have been any of that technology benefiting Eastern cultures had it not been for the freedoms and liberties granted by modern Western nations to individual inventors and scientists

https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/podcast/s4-e7-ayaan-hirsi-ali/

Ayaan Hirsi Ali and I discuss, among other topics, Immigration, Islam, the changing safety of women in public(particularly in areas of Europe), clashing values of western cultures and Islam, win-win propositions, and many more career-ending topics. Ayaan outlines her arguments and concerns with current immigration practices and how Islamic leaders and values clash with many freedoms of modern culture. We also look more at her latest book, Prey: Immigration, Islam, and the Erosion of Women’s Rights.



A very interesting, intelligent, careful discussion.


Nothing like  what you get with Brian, mothra, gweggy, k'anal and the rest of the seething resentment kids.

It’s a point made by Ed West at Unherd where he argues that the period from the 1960s until recently, where free thinking and open debate prevailed, was actually an aberration. We are now returning to a society in which censorious bullies are in charge.

West gives the example of the Black Lives Matter movement. ‘In 2020, almost all the major institutions in the US, aside from the actual President, were loudly vocal along with corporations, charities and NGOs in their support for the BLM protests. Parts of the media were sympathetic to the point of actively playing down some of the violence, the phrase “mostly peaceful protests” becoming an example of American journalism’s Pravda-like bias.’

Of course, there are very many topics that can be added to the list of obligatory opinions, with penalties for any deviations from the Left’s agreed positions. Climate change is real; climate science is settled; the world must achieve net zero emissions by 2050, if not earlier; the wealthy must pay more tax; tax competition is a race to the bottom; minimum wages should be much higher; immigration should be unrestricted; developed economies should accept many more refugees; gender is a social construct and the list goes on.

Ed West makes the point that the Left once had to rely on moral relativism to make its arguments. ‘Relativism is a position you employ when you’re weak, to be abandoned when you win. On a wide range of issues, including race and gender, the Right has been more relativist for some time. Before the 1968 revolution those outside of power (the Left) argued for moral relativism, those in power (the Right) argued for moral absolutism. Now it is the opposite.’




Many Western politicians want to  give away the West. They must be stopped.

Frank wrote on Jul 26^th, 2021 at 9:54pm:

A very interesting, intelligent, careful discussion. Nothing like  what you get with Brian, mothra, gweggy, k'anal and the rest of the seething resentment kids.

Frank, try not to make provocative statements in that manner. It's enshrined in Western culture that everyone is entitled to their opinion

We also should discuss the topic in an interesting, careful and intelligent way


We'll have another break.

This is another of those train station performances on the piano. The next break after this will be something totally different, so keep coming back to the thread


Watch this guy go ... and not a note out of place ...

https://youtu.be/n6GEcdh5whk

Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 31^st, 2021 at 2:31pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 26th, 2021 at 9:54pm: A very interesting, intelligent, careful discussion. Nothing like  what you get with Brian, mothra, gweggy, k'anal and the rest of the seething resentment kids. Frank, try not to make provocative statements in that manner. It's enshrined in Western culture that everyone is entitled to their opinion We also should discuss the topic in an interesting, careful and intelligent way We'll have another break. This is another of those train station performances on the piano. The next break after this will be something totally different, so keep coming back to the thread What this guy go ... and not a note out of place ... https://youtu.be/n6GEcdh5whk

Thanks. What can I say.

https://youtu.be/bFTvENHcobM

Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 24^th, 2021 at 11:22am:

Well now we have China subsuming cultures who can't resist militarily. You take an interest in China don't you? Where did they get their high technology from? All the theories and formulae for their space craft, for example, originated in Germany. A successful guidance system for rockets was developed by Von Braun and his scientists (leaving aside Nazism). China and every other rocket launching nation has copied that technology

Gun-powder and paper were invented in China....the zero (number) was invented in India, etc etc, ..the point is human developmnent has followed invention in many cultures over the millenia, and it's only in the last 500 years when  'Western" science overtook Islamic science (which was supreme from c.800-1200AD). 

China is reclaiming its sovereignty over nations which it possessed in the Qing dynasty.


Quote:

The Japanese learned all about Western technology and used it in their war effort

As with all throughout history, in the rise and fall of empires.


Quote:

Russia was able to short-cut their jet engine development when Roll Royce foolishly sold them some of their operational engines. The Russians were handed the British jet engine technology on a plate, and replicated it There may not have been any of that technology benefiting Eastern cultures had it not been for the freedoms and liberties granted by modern Western nations to individual inventors and scientists

Addressed above. Russia is mostly a 'Western' culture (after Peter the Great); and Russian socialism launched the space age (first satellite and first man in space).

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2021 at 1:35pm:

'Western" science overtook Islamic science (which was supreme from c.800-1200AD).

That's a long time ago. Perhaps today, with growing muslim populations in Western nations they could become "Westernized" and relax some of their strict Islamic requirements and free themselves up to engage in the sciences once more, ensuring it's for the benefit of the Western nations they preside in, if they choose to stay in Western nations




thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 25^th, 2021 at 1:35pm:

Russia is mostly a 'Western' culture (after Peter the Great); and Russian socialism launched the space age (first satellite and first man in space).

It's a Western nation now, but remember Stalin imprisoned scientists and designers, including plane designers, and only let them out when Germany became a threat in 1941. They enjoyed a fair bit of freedom during the war but Western scientists and designers had no such political paranoia holding them back and were always free to invent, design and innovate

In Eastern cultures, technology seemed to have stagnated, only to come alive again in certain Eastern countries by the injection of Western off-shore manufacturing ... but they are still limited in their scientific outlook by either religious beliefs, politics or cultural restrictions

In terms of Eastern culture/technology stagnation versus Western culture/technological advancement ... we need only look at this photo of Afghanis in this Globemaster. Just one Eastern culture that has not advanced technologically in a very long time. The Shar tried to change things, but he was booted out. The National Religion and a subsistence way of life was more important to Afghanis, bringing any introduced Western culture to a grinding halt, and any cultural freedoms with it

Striking contrast between East and West ... not just a rescue mission

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/afghanistan-striking-image-appears-to-show-640-people-fleeing-kabul-in-packed-us-military-plane

Bias_2012 wrote on Aug 26^th, 2021 at 1:29am:

That's a long time ago. Perhaps today, with growing muslim populations in Western nations they could become "Westernized" and relax some of their strict Islamic requirements and free themselves up to engage in the sciences once more, ensuring it's for the benefit of the Western nations they preside in, if they choose to stay in Western nations

Throughout history all cultures rose and fell, and some had a 'golden age' notable for its international reach....but 'times are a changin'....

Currently the West is supreme, but that is rapidly being breeched by China who will no doubt soon demonstrate new technological innovation (as it last did in the Tang dynasty c. 300-600AD)  when its R&D budget surpasses the US, due the the sheer size of China's economy (likely to be double the US by the mid-century).

As for your idea of science for "the benefit of Western nations", well.. that's very ideological/parochial; modern science and innovation has a way of reaching the entire globe in weeks, not centuries as in the past. 


Quote:

It's a Western nation now, but remember Stalin imprisoned scientists and designers, including plane designers, and only let them out when Germany became a threat in 1941. They enjoyed a fair bit of freedom during the war but Western scientists and designers had no such political paranoia holding them back and were always free to invent, design and innovate

And yet the USSR launced the space age in the 60's ...due to well-directed socialist planning, even though the US was double the size of the USSR.


Quote:

In Eastern cultures, technology seemed to have stagnated, only to come alive again in certain Eastern countries by the injection of Western off-shore manufacturing ... but they are still limited in their scientific outlook by either religious beliefs, politics or cultural restrictions

Addressed above. China doesn't have the science- restricting religious problem, and as for cultural/political restrictions, we will soon see if Chinese socialism has the better national development model, having changed considerably from the old Leninist model. (and if the repubs regain control of Congress in 2022, the US is stuffed..)


Quote:

In terms of Eastern culture/technology stagnation versus Western culture/technological advancement ... we need only look at this photo of Afghanis in this Globemaster. Just one Eastern culture that has not advanced technologically in a very long time.

True, but you are really referring to Middle Eastern Islamic fundamentalist cultures, China, ie 'the East', will soon reclaim its place as one of the world's major scientific innovators, as noted  above. 


Quote:

The Shar tried to change things, but he was booted out. The National Religion and a subsistence way of life was more important to Afghanis, bringing any introduced Western culture to a grinding halt, and any cultural freedoms with it

True; just shows the disastrous power of fundamentalist interpretation of scripture over uneducated men who prefer to hang onto an anachronisic 7th century culture described in the Koran. 

{You mean the Shah in Iran? Actually  the West (CIA in fact) was a major culprit in the demise of modernization happening in Iran after WW2, and the Islamic ME in general (during the Cold War): see the overthrow of the democratically elected socialist leader of Iran in 1953. US self-interested political ideology in all its evil). 


Quote:

Striking contrast between East and West ...

More accurately, a striking contrast between the modern West and an anachronistic 7th century Arab culture; but the West should not have been there in any case. .

The proper solution is in reform of the UN (eg, get rid of the UNSC veto, etc) and with international institutions which can oversee prosperous development in all nations, not the present nighmare of entrenched global poverty especially in the 3rd world, overseen by the pathetic  US-created  stooge the IMF ("Instant Misery Fund"...we lend you money, and you go broke...).

Frank wrote on Jul 28^th, 2021 at 8:20pm:

West gives the example of the Black Lives Matter movement. ‘In 2020, almost all the major institutions in the US, aside from the actual President, were loudly vocal along with corporations, charities and NGOs in their support for the BLM protests. Parts of the media were sympathetic to the point of actively playing down some of the violence, the phrase “mostly peaceful protests” becoming an example of American journalism’s Pravda-like bias.’

You - along with all Conservatives - are ignoring the cause of the impetus behind BLM ...which is, as Trump himself noted in his inimitable manner (re the black inner-city ghettos in the US, during the 2016 election campaign):

"You are living in poverty, your neighbourhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken,  your young men are in prison...."

That type of entrenched, generational poverty can only be eradicated by a governement-managed and funded Job Guarantee (see MMT), since orthodox neoliberal market economics alone cannot fix it (given inter alia the neo-liberal NAIRU dogma which says a level of unemployment is needed to control inflation.  which is free market nonsense).

Unfortunately the victims themselves (mostly blacks) don't understand that the economic system itself is a cause of their poverty. Blacks, being the most disadvantaged,  suffer the highest unemployment and incarceration rates; but i expect you want to blame blacks themselves, ignoring the demoralizing effects of centuries of racial oppression which is not so easy for many (ghetto based)  individuals to overcome, simply by removing any legal basis for racism.


Quote:

Of course, there are very many topics that can be added to the list of obligatory opinions, with penalties for any deviations from the Left’s agreed positions. Climate change is real; climate science is settled; the world must achieve net zero emissions by 2050, if not earlier; the wealthy must pay more tax; tax competition is a race to the bottom; minimum wages should be much higher; immigration should be unrestricted; developed economies should accept many more refugees; gender is a social construct and the list goes on.

Question: do you think we live in a 'functional' global economy, when it is characterized by extreme poverty and extreme inequality, eg, in which  Jeff Bezos is richer than some entire countries (eg he is five times as rich as Haiti)? Your answer will be revealing..... 


Quote:

Ed West makes the point that the Left once had to rely on moral relativism to make its arguments. ‘Relativism is a position you employ when you’re weak, to be abandoned when you win. On a wide range of issues, including race and gender, the Right has been more relativist for some time. Before the 1968 revolution those outside of power (the Left) argued for moral relativism, those in power (the Right) argued for moral absolutism. Now it is the opposite.’

Yes..well the Left has certainly abandoned the idea of good wages for all workers, since the collapse of the USSR; but we are now seeing capital has all the power, and the Left doesn't have any real answers and is being diverted by 'identity politics'. And the Right doesn't like identity politics, because the Right thinks anyone can succeed if they try hard enough, which is the ultimate delusion as explained above (the neoliberal economic system itself is dysfunctional). 


Quote:

Many Western politicians want to  give away the West. They must be stopped.

Do you mean: give away ideas which are patently failing?

Many Western politicians are seeking a world without poverty and war; 70 million refugees escaping war and poverty shows the extent of the problem. But unfortunately Western politicians, like you,  are grounded in obsolete market othodoxy which cannot deal with the looming global pollution, ecological and biodiversity problems arisng from 'business as usual. 

Pity about that...

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 26^th, 2021 at 2:57pm:

But unfortunately Western politicians, like you,  are grounded in obsolete market othodoxy which cannot deal with the looming global pollution, ecological and biodiversity problems arisng from 'business as usual.  Pity about that...

Only Western politicians?

Ayn Marx wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2021 at 10:05am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 26th, 2021 at 2:57pm: But unfortunately Western politicians, like you,  are grounded in obsolete market othodoxy which cannot deal with the looming global pollution, ecological and biodiversity problems arisng from 'business as usual.  Pity about that... Only Western politicians?

Good point

Everything everywhere needs to be put in perspective about global pollution

Western nations are striving to reduce pollution, but China was presented with this particular problem a year ago ....

Surging air pollution levels after recovering from Covid One ...

Link from the World Economic Forum ...
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/pollution-co2-economy-china/


But now that they have Delta, in 2021, pollution could possibly surge again while attempting to recover economically in coming years. Will China ignore their rising pollution levels for the sake of their economy?


China’s Economy Takes Hit from Delta Virus (this year, 2021) ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-31/china-s-economic-activity-weakens-in-august-amid-delta-outbreak


Further pollution reduction in China might take a back seat for some time

Ayn Marx wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2021 at 10:05am:

Only Western politicians?

And Chinese economists indoctrinated in Western economics schools (Harvard etc). But there is a growing home-grown school of Marxist non-market economics (which has yet to gain the upper hand) which will have a better chance  of dealing with the problems of growth, following a Marxist "planning, not pricing" model.

Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2021 at 3:42pm:

Good point Everything everywhere needs to be put in perspective about global pollution Western nations are striving to reduce pollution, but China was presented with this particular problem a year ago .... Surging air pollution levels after recovering from Covid One ... Link from the World Economic Forum ... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/07/pollution-co2-economy-china/ But now that they have Delta, in 2021, pollution could possibly surge again while attempting to recover economically in coming years. Will China ignore their rising pollution levels for the sake of their economy? China’s Economy Takes Hit from Delta Virus (this year, 2021) ... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-31/china-s-economic-activity-weakens-in-august-amid-delta-outbreak Further pollution reduction in China might take a back seat for some time

See my reply to Ayn Marx, immediately above.

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 11^th, 2021 at 2:30pm:

See my reply to Ayn Marx, immediately above.

Well you were talking about global pollution, but now, in your reply to Ayn Marx, you've switched to Marxist non-market economics. Is that more important than reducing global pollution?

Only Western culture advocates civilised unity.


https://youtu.be/jD8tjhVO1Tc

Neil Oliver: 'If the West isn’t careful, it might shortly be all over for the West.'


https://youtu.be/VIROk-Ey-oc

Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2021 at 3:51pm:

Well you were talking about global pollution, but now, in your reply to Ayn Marx, you've switched to Marxist non-market economics. Is that more important than reducing global pollution?

Nothing is more important than facing up to our species propensity for unthinking vicious, collective militarism. Everything else is no more than dancing on the deck of the Titanic.

---

A little entertainment ...


Precision Drumming - First the Swiss, then the Poms

https://youtu.be/x9nmSJ3gesE

A marvellous commemoration of Remembrance or Armistice Day

https://www.steynonline.com/mark-steyn-show-audio/11867/a-soldier-comes-home

Ayn Marx wrote on Sep 19^th, 2021 at 9:59am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 12th, 2021 at 3:51pm: Well you were talking about global pollution, but now, in your reply to Ayn Marx, you've switched to Marxist non-market economics. Is that more important than reducing global pollution? Nothing is more important than facing up to our species propensity for unthinking vicious, collective militarism. Everything else is no more than dancing on the deck of the Titanic.

So true. Anyone for a UNSC without veto, as part of UN reform to implement an international rules based system without recourse to war?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 16^th, 2021 at 5:25pm:

Ayn Marx wrote on Sep 19th, 2021 at 9:59am: Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 12th, 2021 at 3:51pm: Well you were talking about global pollution, but now, in your reply to Ayn Marx, you've switched to Marxist non-market economics. Is that more important than reducing global pollution? Nothing is more important than facing up to our species propensity for unthinking vicious, collective militarism. Everything else is no more than dancing on the deck of the Titanic. So true. Anyone for a UNSC without veto, as part of UN reform to implement an international rules based system without recourse to war?

The Chinese leader said recently "Bullies’ Will Have Their ‘Heads Bashed Bloody"

Are they playing the "victim" over the South China Sea?

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 16^th, 2021 at 6:13pm:

The Chinese leader said recently "Bullies’ Will Have Their ‘Heads Bashed Bloody" Are they playing the "victim" over the South China Sea?

Biden recently  said: "China's economy  will not surpass the US on my watch". 

What...Biden really thinks the US has a god-given right to remain 5 times as wealthy as China on a per capita basis?

That makes Biden a bully, by definition.

And to interfere in Taiwan, which until recently was itself claiming to be the legal government of all of China...an interference by the US which is the driving force behind the defense installations in the SCS., given US encirclement of China  in the Western Pacific.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 16^th, 2021 at 10:41pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 6:13pm: The Chinese leader said recently "Bullies’ Will Have Their ‘Heads Bashed Bloody" Are they playing the "victim" over the South China Sea? Biden recently  said: "China's economy  will not surpass the US on my watch".  What...Biden really thinks the US has a god-given right to remain 5 times as wealthy as China on a per capita basis?

He didnt say that, you did.


Quote:

That makes Biden a bully, by definition.

Actually it makes you pretty thick, by definition.


Quote:

And to interfere in Taiwan, which until recently was itself claiming to be the legal government of all of China...an interference by the US which is the driving force behind the defense installations in the SCS., given US encirclement of China  in the Western Pacific.

Kind of strange then, after Biden didnt back down, that China is now making peace moves with the US. On the scale of wrongness, out of 10 you score an 11.





[/quote]

rhino wrote on Nov 16^th, 2021 at 10:51pm:

He didnt say that, you did.

Er.....Biden said China's economy will not surpass the US under his watch. That means per capita income in China must remain, according to Biden,  at c.1/5 that of the US as at present (though probably more like 1/4 in PPP terms), since China has 4 times the population of the US.


Quote:

Actually it makes you pretty thick, by definition.

Disproved above. Biden is determined to limit China's growth, as noted above, by ignoring WTO trade rules, and worse, the US has refused to engage in elections which will enable the WTO to function (google it); and is unilaterally imposing trade bans on Chinese companies in a doomed attempt to maintain US global hegemony.  A bully, by definition.


Quote:

Kind of strange then, after Biden didnt back down, that China is now making peace moves with the US. On the scale of wrongness, out of 10 you score an 11.

Er... Biden is speaking out of both sides of his mouth:  Biden says "there is only 'One China' ", (also as per UN resolution), but encouraging Taiwan independence is useful ...no doubt Biden would like to see a shooting war between Taiwan and China, think of all the arms sales to Taiwan.

But Taiwan independence crosses the mainland's redline; that's why Biden is forced to talk out of both sides of his mouth on Taiwan, because US victory in the Taiwan straits is by no means certain (google it). 

Anti-Enlightenment secularists are wrong on rights

In a country virtually drowning with rights, it is ironic that religious freedom should be the last cab off the rank – and the one that seems to be facing the greatest legislative opposition.

After all, religious freedom, with its intimate linkages to the freedoms of conscience, expression and association, was at the heart of the modern conceptions of liberty that took shape in the 17th and 18th centuries; and while the very early acceptance of those freedoms in the Australian colonies did not entirely avoid sectarian conflict, it contributed powerfully to our long history of social peace.

But that very early acceptance came at a cost: like the air we breathe, religious freedom was largely taken for granted. As new rights that impinge on it were sought and granted, we became, almost without noticing it, one of the advanced democracies in which religious freedom enjoys the weakest protections.

Condemned, as religious freedom now is, to struggle against vocal and determined enemies, it is not difficult to imagine a future in which expressing many longstanding religious beliefs will be rendered illegal, as will the actions that give those beliefs practical life.

There is, however, a deeper element to the irony that now sees religious freedom so seriously threatened: it is only thanks to religion, and in particular to the fusion of Judaic legalism with Christian universalism, that the idea of human rights emerged, eventually becoming a defining feature of the Western tradition.

No one has shown that more clearly than Jurgen Habermas, the German intellectual who has been a towering figure of the European left since the 1960s, in his recently published Another History of Philosophy, which will appear in English translation next year. The West’s Judaeo-Christian heritage was “not a mere passing phase” in the formation of the contemporary concepts of freedom, Habermas argues in this extraordinary – if forbiddingly lengthy – book; rather, that heritage contributed their essential core and remains their vital underpinning.
The path leading from the biblical precepts to today’s versions of those concepts was never simple, untroubled or pure. It was, however, the Judaeo-Christian heritage that allowed Western thought to repeatedly overcome the obstacles it encountered along the way.

For example, Thomas Aquinas’s distinction between divine law, which was accessible only through grace, and natural law, which was accessible to every human being through the God-given capacity to reason, may seem of purely antiquarian interest. However, from that distinction Aquinas, and his great disciples in the Salamanca School of theology, derived not just the bedrock principle of human equality but the entirely novel, intensely controversial and eventually immensely influential contention that “heathens” – whose minds had unimpaired access to natural law – had rights as good as those of their Christian neighbours.

Equally, John Locke readily conceded that some people were not as clever as others (though bitter experience also taught him it was not the uneducated who caused society’s troubles but the overweening “pretensions of power” of the “all-knowing Doctors”).

Beginning with the Augsburg Interim of 1548, in which Charles V, in attempting to secure peace between Reformers and Catholics, advanced the principle of distinguishing those matters that were fundamental from those that were morally indifferent, the notion that there were many things on which we could agree to disagree without imperilling our immortal souls laid the intellectual basis for mutual toleration. Thus was born what is undoubtedly the most fundamental right of them all: the right to live in peaceful coexistence, perhaps not basking in loving friendship but at least respecting each other’s continuing presence.

However, few virtues have proven harder to secure and maintain than that of indifference and its indispensable companion, charity. Nor are there many virtues that are more manifestly lacking in the secularists’ attack on religious freedom.

Rather, just like the Anabaptists – who provoked Philipp Melanchthon to coin for them the term “fanatic” (that is, believer in phantasms) by claiming that any concession to the principle of indifference would set off a chain of further concessions that led to eternal damnation – so our secularists, in their opposition to a legislated right of religious freedom, agitate slippery slopes that seem utterly fantastic.

How, for example, could anyone familiar with contemporary Australia seriously suggest allowing a baker to refuse to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding would unleash uncontrollable torrents of homophobia across this sunbaked land? And is it even vaguely credible to contend that if a small, entirely self-funded, religious school decided to not admit gay students, or to hire only evangelical gardeners, the consequences would be so dreadful as to justify coercing them to do otherwise?

Perhaps those contentions are made in good faith; they are certainly not made with good sense.

Redolent of Lenin’s dictum that liberty is “so precious that it must be rationed” – with none of it going to the people one detests – they reflect a view of rights antithetical to that which the Judaeo-Christian tradition did so much to forge. That view saw rights as the fences within which we can each peacefully exercise our freedoms. Instead, for today’s secularists, their own rights are the bulldozers with which to crush the fences of others.

Little wonder then that Habermas, in this 2000-page masterpiece that fittingly caps a brilliant career, castigates that zero-sum mentality as an intellectually vacuous betrayal of the Enlightenment’s hopes and values. Unfortunately, in an age that has managed to lose both its faith and its reason, it may take a miracle for voices like his to be heard.
Henry Ergas

Currently Western culture is not 'true/real' Western culture as it has been exploited by the Oceanic Media culture for so long like a false prophet.

Europe, Asia, Africa are rejecting the Middle-East's Religion in favour for the Media of Oceania.

Namerica, Samerica and Australia are rejecting Oceania's Media in favour for Religion of the Middle-East.

Media keeps Namericans in the 'dark' with its Biden Lies.
Like Religion kept Africa in the dark (continent)

Jasin wrote on Dec 11^th, 2021 at 5:59pm:

Currently Western culture is not 'true/real' Western culture as it has been exploited by the Oceanic Media culture for so long like a false prophet. Europe, Asia, Africa are rejecting the Middle-East's Religion in favour for the Media of Oceania. Namerica, Samerica and Australia are rejecting Oceania's Media in favour for Religion of the Middle-East. Media keeps Namericans in the 'dark' with its Biden Lies. Like Religion kept Africa in the dark (continent)

Who knew?!!?

Frank wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 7:28am:

Beginning with the Augsburg Interim of 1548, in which Charles V, in attempting to secure peace between Reformers and Catholics, advanced the principle of distinguishing those matters that were fundamental from those that were morally indifferent, the notion that there were many things on which we could agree to disagree without imperilling our immortal souls laid the intellectual basis for mutual toleration. Thus was born what is undoubtedly the most fundamental right of them all: the right to live in peaceful coexistence, perhaps not basking in loving friendship but at least respecting each other’s continuing presence. However, few virtues have proven harder to secure and maintain than that of indifference and its indispensable companion, charity. Nor are there many virtues that are more manifestly lacking in the secularists’ attack on religious freedom. Rather, just like the Anabaptists – who provoked Philipp Melanchthon to coin for them the term “fanatic” (that is, believer in phantasms) by claiming that any concession to the principle of indifference would set off a chain of further concessions that led to eternal damnation – so our secularists, in their opposition to a legislated right of religious freedom, agitate slippery slopes that seem utterly fantastic. How, for example, could anyone familiar with contemporary Australia seriously suggest allowing a baker to refuse to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding would unleash uncontrollable torrents of homophobia across this sunbaked land? And is it even vaguely credible to contend that if a small, entirely self-funded, religious school decided to not admit gay students, or to hire only evangelical gardeners, the consequences would be so dreadful as to justify coercing them to do otherwise? Perhaps those contentions are made in good faith; they are certainly not made with good sense. Redolent of Lenin’s dictum that liberty is “so precious that it must be rationed” – with none of it going to the people one detests – they reflect a view of rights antithetical to that which the Judaeo-Christian tradition did so much to forge. That view saw rights as the fences within which we can each peacefully exercise our freedoms. Instead, for today’s secularists, their own rights are the bulldozers with which to crush the fences of others. Little wonder then that Habermas, in this 2000-page masterpiece that fittingly caps a brilliant career, castigates that zero-sum mentality as an intellectually vacuous betrayal of the Enlightenment’s hopes and values. Unfortunately, in an age that has managed to lose both its faith and its reason, it may take a miracle for voices like his to be heard. Henry Ergas

Interesting post. Thanks.

But is not the stern clerical resistance against voluntary assisted dying, for example,  just as intolerant as the secularists' over-weaning intolerance pointed to above. 

And the complex issue of abortion, especially when the woman is generally not offered assistance by the state, to care for the (accidental) child.

Frank wrote on Dec 10^th, 2021 at 7:26am:

Anti-Enlightenment secularists are wrong on rights In a country virtually drowning with rights, it is ironic that religious freedom should be the last cab off the rank – and the one that seems to be facing the greatest legislative opposition. After all, religious freedom, with its intimate linkages to the freedoms of conscience, expression and association, was at the heart of the modern conceptions of liberty that took shape in the 17th and 18th centuries; and while the very early acceptance of those freedoms in the Australian colonies did not entirely avoid sectarian conflict, it contributed powerfully to our long history of social peace. But that very early acceptance came at a cost: like the air we breathe, religious freedom was largely taken for granted. As new rights that impinge on it were sought and granted, we became, almost without noticing it, one of the advanced democracies in which religious freedom enjoys the weakest protections. Condemned, as religious freedom now is, to struggle against vocal and determined enemies, it is not difficult to imagine a future in which expressing many longstanding religious beliefs will be rendered illegal, as will the actions that give those beliefs practical life. There is, however, a deeper element to the irony that now sees religious freedom so seriously threatened: it is only thanks to religion, and in particular to the fusion of Judaic legalism with Christian universalism, that the idea of human rights emerged, eventually becoming a defining feature of the Western tradition. No one has shown that more clearly than Jurgen Habermas, the German intellectual who has been a towering figure of the European left since the 1960s, in his recently published Another History of Philosophy, which will appear in English translation next year. The West’s Judaeo-Christian heritage was “not a mere passing phase” in the formation of the contemporary concepts of freedom, Habermas argues in this extraordinary – if forbiddingly lengthy – book; rather, that heritage contributed their essential core and remains their vital underpinning. The path leading from the biblical precepts to today’s versions of those concepts was never simple, untroubled or pure. It was, however, the Judaeo-Christian heritage that allowed Western thought to repeatedly overcome the obstacles it encountered along the way. For example, Thomas Aquinas’s distinction between divine law, which was accessible only through grace, and natural law, which was accessible to every human being through the God-given capacity to reason, may seem of purely antiquarian interest. However, from that distinction Aquinas, and his great disciples in the Salamanca School of theology, derived not just the bedrock principle of human equality but the entirely novel, intensely controversial and eventually immensely influential contention that “heathens” – whose minds had unimpaired access to natural law – had rights as good as those of their Christian neighbours. Equally, John Locke readily conceded that some people were not as clever as others (though bitter experience also taught him it was not the uneducated who caused society’s troubles but the overweening “pretensions of power” of the “all-knowing Doctors”).

Another interesting post. But a quick read leaves me thinking Habermas  is more Conservative than Left, with his defense of the West's Judeo-Christian heritage similar to Greg Sheridan's book :"God is good for you".

I'll get back to it later.

Just as diverse peoples found much to emulate in Roman civilisation, the liberal institutions that developed in the West can still appeal to people from radically diverse backgrounds. Chinese, Muslims and Latin Americans migrate mostly to countries that have embraced the liberal values of citizenship, tolerance and the rule of law (5). China under the autocratic Xi Jinping may offer ‘the Chinese dream’, but the number of immigrants from China living in the United States more than doubled between 2000 and 2018, reaching nearly 2.5million. Similar patterns have been seen in both Canada and Australia. There is little such movement to China or most other Asian countries.

Those with the good fortune to live in pluralistic Western-style democracies, rooted in classical culture, should recognise how rare such open societies have been through history, and how much the vitality of these societies is threatened today. Historically, democracy has been like a flame that shines bright for a while – as in Greece and Rome – and then succumbs to autocracy or ossifies into hierarchy.

A future shaped by the best Western values is still possible, if we are willing to embrace it, and teach it to future generations. Such a broad vision will be resisted by the woke, and some nationalists on the right may see inclusivity as too tolerant of change and difference. Books and open discussion are decisive weapons against the rise of post-literate intolerance. This is what helped overwhelm feudalism and could fend off its repeat appearance in our era.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/12/15/the-new-dark-ages/

Frank wrote on Dec 15^th, 2021 at 7:50pm:

Just as diverse peoples found much to emulate in Roman civilisation, the liberal institutions that developed in the West can still appeal to people from radically diverse backgrounds. Chinese, Muslims and Latin Americans migrate mostly to countries that have embraced the liberal values of citizenship, tolerance and the rule of law (5). China under the autocratic Xi Jinping may offer ‘the Chinese dream’, but the number of immigrants from China living in the United States more than doubled between 2000 and 2018, reaching nearly 2.5million. Similar patterns have been seen in both Canada and Australia. There is little such movement to China or most other Asian countries.

https://monitor.icef.com/2018/02/increasing-numbers-chinese-graduates-returning-home-overseas/

"The number of Chinese graduates that return from overseas studies every year has more than doubled since 2011
These foreign university graduates are being drawn by the increasing opportunities offered by the hot Chinese economy
On balance, returnees enjoy some advantages from their improved foreign language skills and international experience, but also experience challenges arising from less-developed professional networks in China and unfamiliarity with the Chinese job market"



Quote:

Those with the good fortune to live in pluralistic Western-style democracies, rooted in classical culture, should recognise how rare such open societies have been through history, and how much the vitality of these societies is threatened today. Historically, democracy has been like a flame that shines bright for a while – as in Greece and Rome – and then succumbs to autocracy or ossifies into hierarchy.

Yes...because democracy is always high-jacked by the wealthy, and then degenerates from within. 


Quote:

A future shaped by the best Western values is still possible, if we are willing to embrace it, and teach it to future generations.

Best Western values? What are they? Greed and self-interest always contaminate "values" , which is why democracies eventually fail. We may yet see the emergence of theconsensus one-party meritocracy, guided by the principle of sustainable common prosperity, as the emergent successful form of government in the 21st century and beyond. Western "freedom" ideology is incompatible with a well-ordered, sustainable, finite global economy. 


Quote:

Such a broad vision will be resisted by the woke, and some nationalists on the right may see inclusivity as too tolerant of change and difference.

The woke Left? And then there's the Right, as you noticed....


Quote:

Books and open discussion are decisive weapons against the rise of post-literate intolerance. This is what helped overwhelm feudalism and could fend off its repeat appearance in our era.

True, except the Right can't face truth, warts and all. Hence the flag-waving BS. And the Left has been sidetracked by identity politics, because they can't defend the working class anymore, given the triumph of neo-liberalism after the fall of the USSR.

So hyper-partisan left -right democracies....not looking good.

Western civilisation explained

https://youtu.be/hfJyAHnbI8E

Frank wrote on Dec 31^st, 2021 at 9:28am:

Western civilisation explained https://youtu.be/hfJyAHnbI8E

Zemmour proves himself to be little better than a weak-minded ideologue: "Christians have to be prepared to go to war, to fight evil". What kind of "Christians"?

Biden and Putin, both Christians, threatening one-another in a dispute with global consequences. 

And what happened to "equality" and common prosperity?

So many of the problems which bedevil our society are the consequence of us suddenly deciding, in about 1963, to take young people seriously. The most obvious is in the dumbing down of our culture, from the various bastard offspring of rock and roll to films almost entirely devoid of dialogue; a culture from which difficulty — and therefore depth and resonance — has been excised.

Then there is cancel culture, where we are enjoined to bow down before the legion of acute sensitivities demonstrated by the young, terrified that they might be triggered into a breakdown. The post-Marxist idiocies which infest so many of our institutions devolve directly from the youth-driven upheavals of 1968, which seemed then as now simply expressions of adolescent petulance.
...
Until teenagers were invented in about 1955, the UK had virtually no drug problem whatsoever, nor any of the crimes which now accompany drugs: then, it was a handful of middle-class addicts who got their morphine from the local doctor. The enormous growth in illegal drug use from the end of the 1950s was almost exclusively among young people (and had been initiated in jazz and later rock and roll clubs). Over the following decade it increased almost exponentially, at every single juncture being attendant on one or another youth subsect usually associated with music: cannabis, heroin and cocaine from jazz; amphetamines for the Mods; LSD for the hippies. Today, drug use costs us £20 billion per year, an estimated 20 per cent of people between 16 and 24 have taken drugs, and there are 330,000 opiate or crack addicts in England alone. The figure in 1959 was 454, for the whole of the UK.
...
Much as rock music was now being lionised by supposed intellectuals as an art form not merely worthy of comparison to classical music but actually superior to it — and the ludicrous doggerel lyrics subjected to the kind of critical examination which was once afforded to T.S. Eliot — so the appurtenances of this new ‘vibrant’ culture also came to be accepted by a clique which, in later years, would begin to dominate our institutions. Dangerous drugs were no longer the preserve of a few sad and lonely men, to be a little despised and pitied. They were not merely no longer taboo, but central to an ‘edgy’ and oppositional counter-culture which later became the culture.

Marx was wrong, as ever. The base of the drugs trade is not the economics: that’s only the superstructure. The base is a culture which suddenly became amenable to drugs.


Rod Liddle



Taking spoiled brats serioysly, No 4,978

Spoiled Rotten
Students at the United Nations International School launch an anonymous social media campaign denouncing their teachers as “racists” and “oppressors.”
Christopher F. Rufo
Last year, students at New York’s elite United Nations International School launched an anonymous social media campaign denouncing the school’s teachers and administrators for their “vast history of systemic racism,” “white liberal racist thinking,” and “direct, intentional, repeated racial trauma.” The students threatened to “cancel” their “oppressors” through social media shaming. Administrators immediately caved to their demands.

Western society culture - the Fall, the End of the World, Yesterday's people.

Keep in mind that UNIS is the school of choice for the world’s elites, teaching the children of diplomats and leading figures in international banking, finance, technology, and business at a cost of up to $44,000 a year. The school’s political climate was already thoroughly liberal and progressive. According to one source, after the election of Donald Trump in 2016, the school held “three days of counseling” and “a series of emergency assemblies where tearful students ranted about being deported.” When then-UN Ambassador Nikki Haley enrolled her children at the UN School, the source said, faculty and staff “roundly despised” her as a “Trump enabler.”

The dynamics at this bastion of elite progressivism reveal something important about the American political environment. The children of the most privileged people on the planet have donned the mantle of oppression to satisfy their moral narcissism and to exercise power over their elders. The adults, crippled with anxiety about any threat to their status, immediately bow to anonymous teenagers leading an online mob.

This is the same basic pattern now spreading through most major institutions in the country, from federal agencies to state boards of education to Fortune 500 companies. More than anything, what’s needed in America today is moral courage—precisely the virtue that has vanished from those who administer our institutions.
https://www.city-journal.org/black-at-unis-campaign

Frank wrote on Jan 8^th, 2022 at 2:26pm:

So many of the problems which bedevil our society are the consequence of us suddenly deciding, in about 1963, to take young people seriously. The most obvious is in the dumbing down of our culture, from the various bastard offspring of rock and roll to films almost entirely devoid of dialogue; a culture from which difficulty — and therefore depth and resonance — has been excised. Then there is cancel culture, where we are enjoined to bow down before the legion of acute sensitivities demonstrated by the young, terrified that they might be triggered into a breakdown. The post-Marxist idiocies which infest so many of our institutions devolve directly from the youth-driven upheavals of 1968, which seemed then as now simply expressions of adolescent petulance. ... Until teenagers were invented in about 1955, the UK had virtually no drug problem whatsoever, nor any of the crimes which now accompany drugs: then, it was a handful of middle-class addicts who got their morphine from the local doctor. The enormous growth in illegal drug use from the end of the 1950s was almost exclusively among young people (and had been initiated in jazz and later rock and roll clubs). Over the following decade it increased almost exponentially, at every single juncture being attendant on one or another youth subsect usually associated with music: cannabis, heroin and cocaine from jazz; amphetamines for the Mods; LSD for the hippies. Today, drug use costs us £20 billion per year, an estimated 20 per cent of people between 16 and 24 have taken drugs, and there are 330,000 opiate or crack addicts in England alone. The figure in 1959 was 454, for the whole of the UK. ... Much as rock music was now being lionised by supposed intellectuals as an art form not merely worthy of comparison to classical music but actually superior to it — and the ludicrous doggerel lyrics subjected to the kind of critical examination which was once afforded to T.S. Eliot — so the appurtenances of this new ‘vibrant’ culture also came to be accepted by a clique which, in later years, would begin to dominate our institutions. Dangerous drugs were no longer the preserve of a few sad and lonely men, to be a little despised and pitied. They were not merely no longer taboo, but central to an ‘edgy’ and oppositional counter-culture which later became the culture. Marx was wrong, as ever. The base of the drugs trade is not the economics: that’s only the superstructure. The base is a culture which suddenly became amenable to drugs. Rod Liddle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Liddle

Well, thanks at least for acquainting us with one of the more 'colorful' characters in British journalism, but it turns out he is mainly in it for the notoriety, rather than any examination of 'truth', eg, as one observer noted, a "wind-up merchant".
(And a particularly obnoxious human being in his private life, running off with a younger woman while married, and apparently abusing both of them...). 

So he thinks the BBC spent too long covering Mandela's funeral (couldn't he just have changed the channel?) ...and later "suggested the trial of two men accused (and later convicted) of murdering Stephen Lawrence would not be fair".
[Lawrence, a young black man, had been randomly attacked  at a bus-stop and murdered by a group of white youths. Why on earth would anyone be motivated to defend such vermin?]

So your choice of a "defender of Western Culture' leaves something to be desired, to say the least. 

And his  concluding paragraph sums up his general ignorance nicely (apart from his assertion that "Marx was wrong as always"):
"(Drugs)  were not merely no longer taboo, but central to an ‘edgy’ and oppositional counter-culture which later became the culture."

..an oppositional counter-culture born out of opposition to the Vietnam war and its horrors("make love not war"), conducted by our "Western civilization" on a colonized (originally by France) Asian state, a reality completely ignored by Riddle, who has no understanding of WHY  the culture "suddenly became amenable to drugs".

........


Quote:

Taking spoiled brats serioysly, No 4,978 [quote]Spoiled Rotten Students at the United Nations International School launch an anonymous social media campaign denouncing their teachers as “racists” and “oppressors.” Christopher F. Rufo Last year, students at New York’s elite United Nations International School launched an anonymous social media campaign denouncing the school’s teachers and administrators for their “vast history of systemic racism,” “white liberal racist thinking,” and “direct, intentional, repeated racial trauma.” The students threatened to “cancel” their “oppressors” through social media shaming. Administrators immediately caved to their demands.

"According to the student activists, to disagree with any part of their agenda is to admit to racism".

Yes, a bit like disagreeing with the illegal occupation of the West bank and being labelled an anti-Semite....

Race politics is certainly fraught, but we need to examine 'why is it so'....

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 8^th, 2022 at 6:05pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2022 at 2:26pm: So many of the problems which bedevil our society are the consequence of us suddenly deciding, in about 1963, to take young people seriously. The most obvious is in the dumbing down of our culture, from the various bastard offspring of rock and roll to films almost entirely devoid of dialogue; a culture from which difficulty — and therefore depth and resonance — has been excised. Then there is cancel culture, where we are enjoined to bow down before the legion of acute sensitivities demonstrated by the young, terrified that they might be triggered into a breakdown. The post-Marxist idiocies which infest so many of our institutions devolve directly from the youth-driven upheavals of 1968, which seemed then as now simply expressions of adolescent petulance. ... Until teenagers were invented in about 1955, the UK had virtually no drug problem whatsoever, nor any of the crimes which now accompany drugs: then, it was a handful of middle-class addicts who got their morphine from the local doctor. The enormous growth in illegal drug use from the end of the 1950s was almost exclusively among young people (and had been initiated in jazz and later rock and roll clubs). Over the following decade it increased almost exponentially, at every single juncture being attendant on one or another youth subsect usually associated with music: cannabis, heroin and cocaine from jazz; amphetamines for the Mods; LSD for the hippies. Today, drug use costs us £20 billion per year, an estimated 20 per cent of people between 16 and 24 have taken drugs, and there are 330,000 opiate or crack addicts in England alone. The figure in 1959 was 454, for the whole of the UK. ... Much as rock music was now being lionised by supposed intellectuals as an art form not merely worthy of comparison to classical music but actually superior to it — and the ludicrous doggerel lyrics subjected to the kind of critical examination which was once afforded to T.S. Eliot — so the appurtenances of this new ‘vibrant’ culture also came to be accepted by a clique which, in later years, would begin to dominate our institutions. Dangerous drugs were no longer the preserve of a few sad and lonely men, to be a little despised and pitied. They were not merely no longer taboo, but central to an ‘edgy’ and oppositional counter-culture which later became the culture. Marx was wrong, as ever. The base of the drugs trade is not the economics: that’s only the superstructure. The base is a culture which suddenly became amenable to drugs. Rod Liddle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Liddle Well, thanks at least for acquainting us with one of the more 'colorful' characters in British journalism, but it turns out he is mainly in it for the notoriety, rather than any examination of 'truth', eg, as one observer noted, a "wind-up merchant". (And a particularly obnoxious human being in his private life, running off with a younger woman while married, and apparently abusing both of them...).  So he thinks the BBC spent too long covering Mandela's funeral (couldn't he just have changed the channel?) ...and later "suggested the trial of two men accused (and later convicted) of murdering Stephen Lawrence would not be fair". [Lawrence, a young black man, had been randomly attacked  at a bus-stop and murdered by a group of white youths. Why on earth would anyone be motivated to defend such vermin?] So your choice of a "defender of Western Culture' leaves something to be desired, to say the least.  And his  concluding paragraph sums up his general ignorance nicely (apart from his assertion that "Marx was wrong as always"): "(Drugs)  were not merely no longer taboo, but central to an ‘edgy’ and oppositional counter-culture which later became the culture." ..an oppositional counter-culture born out of opposition to the Vietnam war and its horrors("make love not war"), conducted by our "Western civilization" on a colonized (originally by France) Asian state, a reality completely ignored by Riddle, who has no understanding of WHY  the culture "suddenly became amenable to drugs". ........ Quote: Taking spoiled brats serioysly, No 4,978 [quote]Spoiled Rotten Students at the United Nations International School launch an anonymous social media campaign denouncing their teachers as “racists” and “oppressors.” Christopher F. Rufo Last year, students at New York’s elite United Nations International School launched an anonymous social media campaign denouncing the school’s teachers and administrators for their “vast history of systemic racism,” “white liberal racist thinking,” and “direct, intentional, repeated racial trauma.” The students threatened to “cancel” their “oppressors” through social media shaming. Administrators immediately caved to their demands. "According to the student activists, to disagree with any part of their agenda is to admit to racism". Yes, a bit like disagreeing with the illegal occupation of the West bank and being labelled an anti-Semite.... Race politics is certainly fraught, but we need to examine 'why is it so'....

You are predictably stupid in your response  - wiki, quick quotes, pc slogans - all to quickly get you to mindless 'im so clever, i can google' posturing.

Pathetic.  Stupid.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 8^th, 2022 at 6:05pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2022 at 2:26pm: So many of the problems which bedevil our society are the consequence of us suddenly deciding, in about 1963, to take young people seriously. The most obvious is in the dumbing down of our culture, from the various bastard offspring of rock and roll to films almost entirely devoid of dialogue; a culture from which difficulty — and therefore depth and resonance — has been excised. Then there is cancel culture, where we are enjoined to bow down before the legion of acute sensitivities demonstrated by the young, terrified that they might be triggered into a breakdown. The post-Marxist idiocies which infest so many of our institutions devolve directly from the youth-driven upheavals of 1968, which seemed then as now simply expressions of adolescent petulance. ... Until teenagers were invented in about 1955, the UK had virtually no drug problem whatsoever, nor any of the crimes which now accompany drugs: then, it was a handful of middle-class addicts who got their morphine from the local doctor. The enormous growth in illegal drug use from the end of the 1950s was almost exclusively among young people (and had been initiated in jazz and later rock and roll clubs). Over the following decade it increased almost exponentially, at every single juncture being attendant on one or another youth subsect usually associated with music: cannabis, heroin and cocaine from jazz; amphetamines for the Mods; LSD for the hippies. Today, drug use costs us £20 billion per year, an estimated 20 per cent of people between 16 and 24 have taken drugs, and there are 330,000 opiate or crack addicts in England alone. The figure in 1959 was 454, for the whole of the UK. ... Much as rock music was now being lionised by supposed intellectuals as an art form not merely worthy of comparison to classical music but actually superior to it — and the ludicrous doggerel lyrics subjected to the kind of critical examination which was once afforded to T.S. Eliot — so the appurtenances of this new ‘vibrant’ culture also came to be accepted by a clique which, in later years, would begin to dominate our institutions. Dangerous drugs were no longer the preserve of a few sad and lonely men, to be a little despised and pitied. They were not merely no longer taboo, but central to an ‘edgy’ and oppositional counter-culture which later became the culture. Marx was wrong, as ever. The base of the drugs trade is not the economics: that’s only the superstructure. The base is a culture which suddenly became amenable to drugs. Rod Liddle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Liddle Well, thanks at least for acquainting us with one of the more 'colorful' characters in British journalism, but it turns out he is mainly in it for the notoriety, rather than any examination of 'truth', eg, as one observer noted, a "wind-up merchant". (And a particularly obnoxious human being in his private life, running off with a younger woman while married, and apparently abusing both of them...).  So he thinks the BBC spent too long covering Mandela's funeral (couldn't he just have changed the channel?) ...and later "suggested the trial of two men accused (and later convicted) of murdering Stephen Lawrence would not be fair". [Lawrence, a young black man, had been randomly attacked  at a bus-stop and murdered by a group of white youths. Why on earth would anyone be motivated to defend such vermin?] So your choice of a "defender of Western Culture' leaves something to be desired, to say the least.  And his  concluding paragraph sums up his general ignorance nicely (apart from his assertion that "Marx was wrong as always"): "(Drugs)  were not merely no longer taboo, but central to an ‘edgy’ and oppositional counter-culture which later became the culture." ..an oppositional counter-culture born out of opposition to the Vietnam war and its horrors("make love not war"), conducted by our "Western civilization" on a colonized (originally by France) Asian state, a reality completely ignored by Riddle, who has no understanding of WHY  the culture "suddenly became amenable to drugs". ........ Quote: Taking spoiled brats serioysly, No 4,978 [quote]Spoiled Rotten Students at the United Nations International School launch an anonymous social media campaign denouncing their teachers as “racists” and “oppressors.” Christopher F. Rufo Last year, students at New York’s elite United Nations International School launched an anonymous social media campaign denouncing the school’s teachers and administrators for their “vast history of systemic racism,” “white liberal racist thinking,” and “direct, intentional, repeated racial trauma.” The students threatened to “cancel” their “oppressors” through social media shaming. Administrators immediately caved to their demands. "According to the student activists, to disagree with any part of their agenda is to admit to racism". Yes, a bit like disagreeing with the illegal occupation of the West bank and being labelled an anti-Semite.... Race politics is certainly fraught, but we need to examine 'why is it so'....

Also pedictably - you want politically deranged bozos like you to be in charge of the world.

Pathetic, stupid. 

Why did the Germans do to the Jews what they did?

Was it because of something the Jews did 2000 years earlier?

...what goes around, comes around.

Jasin wrote on Jan 8^th, 2022 at 9:37pm:

Why did the Germans do to the Jews what they did? Was it because of something the Jews did 2000 years earlier? ...what goes around, comes around.

What did they do 2000 years ago, under Roman rule? Made the Romans crucify a Jewish god, despite themselves?

Frank wrote on Jan 8^th, 2022 at 8:32pm:

You are predictably stupid in your response  - wiki, quick quotes, pc slogans - all to quickly get you to mindless 'im so clever'

Here's the thing Frank: that's not debate.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 8^th, 2022 at 10:16pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2022 at 8:32pm: You are predictably stupid in your response  - wiki, quick quotes, pc slogans - all to quickly get you to mindless 'im so clever' Here's the thing Frank: that's not debate.

My point exactly - wiki, quick quotes, pc slogans - all to quickly get you to mindless 'im so clever'.


Your are a lazy, Bbwianesque fool. You looked at the point Liddle made, you couldn't  think of anything to counter his point - so you posted some wiki crap about Liddle, not what he said.


I cant take you seriously, pal, you are stupid the same way all the other googly, fb, social media illiterates are.

Frank wrote on Jan 8^th, 2022 at 9:53pm:

Jasin wrote on Jan 8th, 2022 at 9:37pm: Why did the Germans do to the Jews what they did? Was it because of something the Jews did 2000 years earlier? ...what goes around, comes around. What did they do 2000 years ago, under Roman rule? Made the Romans crucify a Jewish god, despite themselves?

...and Jesus said unto his Jewish people who had him crucified.
"Wait till me little brother Hitler gets yas - ya bastards!"  >:(

Prophets and Messiahs - what goes around, comes around. ;)

Frank wrote on Jan 8^th, 2022 at 10:34pm:

My point exactly - wiki, quick quotes, pc slogans - all to quickly get you to mindless 'im so clever'.

Still no debate, let's read on....


Quote:

Your are a lazy, Bbwianesque fool. You looked at the point Liddle made, you couldn't  think of anything to counter his point - so you posted some wiki crap about Liddle, not what he said.

Ah... now I understand: you were so enraged when I dared to criticize the character of your chosen defender of "Western civilization" that your brain lost any capacity for rational debate.

Actually I quite enjoyed reading the wiki article about Liddle, and decided to report my observations, as context for considering his argument.

Which was:   the 60's oppositional counter-culture with its untutored unruly music led to acceptance of a drug culture even by so-called elites.   Riddle said this was evidence   Marx's linking of cultural decadence (eg drug-taking) with socioeconomic conditions,  was wrong.

I pointed out the reasons which gave rise to the 60's oppositional counter-culture (long-hair, hippy "flower power",  etc)  in the first place were the horrors of the Vietnam war; the kids who were expected to fight in that war said "make love not war", while the Pentagon was defending killing Vietnamese babies, in the name of 'Western civilization'.  Hence the escape to 'pot' and LSD by the kids who were expected to fight in that monstrous war. 


Quote:

I cant take you seriously, pal, you are stupid the same way all the other googly, fb, social media illiterates are.

Well,  here's your chance to show us how smart YOU and Liddle are, by showing how Marx and I are wrong in the above analysis of the '"oppositional counter-culture".

As American - and Western - universities reevaluate the role of Western classical education, Latin and Greek courses are proliferating in China, where students see the Classics as a wellspring of wisdom that remains relevant regardless of hemisphere.
https://supchina.com/2022/01/13/china-looks-to-the-western-classics/

We have gender, race, post-colonial studies proliferating.

Frank wrote on Jan 17^th, 2022 at 9:07am:

As American - and Western - universities reevaluate the role of Western classical education, Latin and Greek courses are proliferating in China, where students see the Classics as a wellspring of wisdom that remains relevant regardless of hemisphere. https://supchina.com/2022/01/13/china-looks-to-the-western-classics/

Interesting article.

But note the final paragraph:

"One day, in 1996, Leeb sat down for tea at the house of his doctoral advisor, the renowned Confucian scholar Tāng Yījiè 汤一介. “You know,” Tang told him, “the views of people from the East and West can enlighten each other.” He described it using four Chinese characters: 互相发明 hùxiàng fāmíng — mutual illumination. Leeb never forgot it. “It’s stayed in my mind throughout the years,” he told me. “That is why I teach Latin.”


Quote:

We have gender, race, post-colonial studies proliferating.

Which is nothing to do with (lack of interest in) classical studies, but rather social problems arising from European colonialism since  the 16th century, its impact on black cultures, and its blow-back in the present day. 

[In my view, civilization moved more quickly westward from its source in Ur (in modern Iraq) than eastward across the Gobi desert to China. eg Homer in Greece  was writing 300 years before Confucius in China...and the Parthenon (Athens) and Pantheon (Rome) have no engineering equivalent in China, from that period. So China has much to learn from a study of the classical (Western) world. 

But China today is above all pragmatic in its approach to economic development. We live in interesting times, when we are likely to see China reclaim its position as the world's largest economy, in association with the miracle of common prosperity....]. 

"Why Socialists Want to Destroy Western Civilization and Christianity"

This vid explains that socialists destroy a nation's culture and economic system first before they bring in their own socialist "utopia"

https://youtu.be/B5fq2j6Z9ro

Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 1:19am:

"Why Socialists Want to Destroy Western Civilization and Christianity"

Well ....Marx did say "religion is the opium of the people" whereas  Thomas Paine (50 years earlier) said: "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion" revealing himself to be a true spirit of the enlightenment.

In fact Marx wanted a new economic system, and Paine a new government; both rejected scriptural Christianity, neither wanted to "destroy Western civilization".


Quote:

This vid explains that socialists destroy a nation's culture and economic system first before they bring in their own socialist "utopia" https://youtu.be/B5fq2j6Z9ro

Feel free to quote anything from the video, and I will critique it.

Western culture is evil, made by the evil white man. Only when non-whites take over the world can there be world peace. This is progress.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 4^th, 2022 at 9:01pm:

Western culture is evil, made by the evil white man. Only when non-whites take over the world can there be world peace. This is progress.

Reprimitivisation  is prowgwess.  Tattoos, bones in noses (aka body piercing),  rap, inarticulateness, whatcha lookin' at, learnin' is white privilege, all that.

Frank wrote on Feb 4^th, 2022 at 10:02pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 4th, 2022 at 9:01pm: Western culture is evil, made by the evil white man. Only when non-whites take over the world can there be world peace. This is progress. Reprimitivisation  is prowgwess.  Tattoos, bones in noses (aka body piercing),  rap, inarticulateness, whatcha lookin' at, learnin' is white privilege, all that.

Well .....looking beyond race and "primitivism": 

Marx did say "religion is the opium of the people" whereas  Thomas Paine (50 years earlier) said: "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion", revealing himself to be a true spirit of the enlightenment.

In fact Marx wanted a new economic system, and Paine a new government; both rejected scriptural Christianity, neither wanted to "destroy Western civilization".

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 8^th, 2022 at 12:32pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 4th, 2022 at 10:02pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 4th, 2022 at 9:01pm: Western culture is evil, made by the evil white man. Only when non-whites take over the world can there be world peace. This is progress. Reprimitivisation  is prowgwess.  Tattoos, bones in noses (aka body piercing),  rap, inarticulateness, whatcha lookin' at, learnin' is white privilege, all that. Well .....looking beyond race and "primitivism":  Marx did say "religion is the opium of the people" whereas  Thomas Paine (50 years earlier) said: "The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion", revealing himself to be a true spirit of the enlightenment. In fact Marx wanted a new economic system, and Paine a new government; both rejected scriptural Christianity, neither wanted to "destroy Western civilization".

Except Marx.


German Idealism (Hegel) maintained that ideas shape culture and society and History itself if the Phenomenology of the Spirit. Marx turned this around into historical and dialectical materialism - turned Hegel from his head onto his feet - and asserted that the base (material production) determines the superstructure (art, literature, ideas) of a society in a dialectical manner.
The Marxist revolution would change the material base of society which then would change the bourgeois superstructure, aka civilisation itself.
The crucial element for a new social order is a new consciousness. Marx was very big on that, all Marxists have been ever since.  They are all engineers of human souls, everything starts with subjugating the mind and the will to the Party ideology - a "world of absolute manipulation", in Havel's words.


Paine had little to nothing to say on any of this stuff.

Frank wrote on Feb 8^th, 2022 at 1:30pm:

Except Marx. German Idealism (Hegel) maintained that ideas shape culture and society and History itself if the Phenomenology of the Spirit.

You need to correct the grammatical error  in that sentence.   


Quote:

Marx turned this around into historical and dialectical materialism - turned Hegel from his head onto his feet - and asserted that the base (material production) determines the superstructure (art, literature, ideas) of a society in a dialectical manner.

Which is correct: St Pauls Cathedral in London, and Henry Purcell's music (with royal patronage) are all dependent on the nation's material development, moreover - in those examples, on the 'commonwealth's'  material advancement rather than the wealth of individual capitalists. 


Quote:

The Marxist revolution would change the material base of society which then would change the bourgeois superstructure, aka civilisation itself.

Correct, as addressed above....but NOT western civilisation itself  which IS based on material advancement. 


Quote:

The crucial element for a new social order is a new consciousness.

You mean a "new consciousness" desiring  to confront the poverty in workhouses in Dickensian London?

That desire is as old as Plato's 'Republic'.


Quote:

Marx was very big on that, all Marxists have been ever since.  They are all engineers of human souls, everything starts with subjugating the mind and the will to the Party ideology - a "world of absolute manipulation", in Havel's words.

Nonsense. "Human souls" don't need to be engineered to desire common prosperity, though greedy self-interested individual sovereignty ideologues do indeed need to be re-educated.


Quote:

Paine had little to nothing to say on any of this stuff.

"All mankind are my brothers" is Marxist to the core: "workers of the world (which we all are) unite!"

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 8^th, 2022 at 2:05pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 8th, 2022 at 1:30pm: Except Marx. German Idealism (Hegel) maintained that ideas shape culture and society and History itself if the Phenomenology of the Spirit. You need to correct the grammatical error  in that sentence.    Quote: Marx turned this around into historical and dialectical materialism - turned Hegel from his head onto his feet - and asserted that the base (material production) determines the superstructure (art, literature, ideas) of a society in a dialectical manner. Which is correct: St Pauls Cathedral in London, and Henry Purcell's music (with royal patronage) are all dependent on the nation's material development, moreover - in those examples, on the 'commonwealth's'  material advancement rather than the wealth of individual capitalists.  [quote]The Marxist revolution would change the material base of society which then would change the bourgeois superstructure, aka civilisation itself.

Correct, as addressed above....but NOT western civilisation itself  which IS based on material advancement. 


Quote:

The crucial element for a new social order is a new consciousness.

You mean a "new consciousness" desiring  to confront the poverty in workhouses in Dickensian London?

That desire is as old as Plato's 'Republic'.


Quote:

Marx was very big on that, all Marxists have been ever since.  They are all engineers of human souls, everything starts with subjugating the mind and the will to the Party ideology - a "world of absolute manipulation", in Havel's words.

Nonsense. "Human souls" don't need to be engineered to desire common prosperity, though greedy self-interested individual sovereignty ideologues do indeed need to be re-educated.


Quote:

Paine had little to nothing to say on any of this stuff.

"All mankind are my brothers" is Marxist to the core: "workers of the world (which we all are) unite!"
[/quote]

Ideas precede material production and material advancement. How can advancement be known without the idea of advancement? What is to be produced without the idea of what to produce and why?

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 9^th, 2022 at 10:05pm:

Ideas precede material production and material advancement. How can advancement be known without the idea of advancement? What is to be produced without the idea of what to produce and why?

Frank tried to draw a distinction between Hegel and Marx, following his assertion that Hegel said ideas shape culture and society, whereas Marx said material development shapes society.   

I contend they are the same thing; in Mesopotamia a long time ago someone discovered that certain grasses can be cultivated...and the rest is history, as they say.

The discovery  preceded the idea of cultivation, which preceded the idea of advancement (aka 'civilization'.)

And in cultivating food rather than hunting or gathering it, what to produce is already revealed, in an ever increasing complexity of material advancement.

Meanwhile, there is no "'Marxist' social-engineering of human souls" required in order for people to consider aspects of "fair" allocation of the material production.

Such concerns re "fairness" are innate to human beings. 

Ok. but what is cultivation without first having the idea of it?

Anyway, ideas and materialism work in unison: ideas produce material 'awareness' and this in turn produces more ideas, then in turn more material 'awareness', and so on.

Marx was too deterministic. Hegel was too idealistic. 

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 10^th, 2022 at 9:12pm:

Ok. but what is cultivation without first having the idea of it?

Serendipity.

Frank wrote on Jan 8^th, 2022 at 10:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 8th, 2022 at 10:16pm: Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2022 at 8:32pm: You are predictably stupid in your response  - wiki, quick quotes, pc slogans - all to quickly get you to mindless 'im so clever' Here's the thing Frank: that's not debate. My point exactly - wiki, quick quotes, pc slogans - all to quickly get you to mindless 'im so clever'. Your are a lazy, Bbwianesque fool. You looked at the point Liddle made, you couldn't  think of anything to counter his point - so you posted some wiki crap about Liddle, not what he said. I cant take you seriously, pal, you are stupid the same way all the other googly, fb, social media illiterates are.

It IS Brian! He slipped up a few times actually.

I just kept stringing him along until his slips became more apparent.

Anyway....a few of us were onto him from the get go.

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1583380619/1890

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10^th, 2022 at 10:44am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 9th, 2022 at 10:05pm: Ideas precede material production and material advancement. How can advancement be known without the idea of advancement? What is to be produced without the idea of what to produce and why? Frank tried to draw a distinction between Hegel and Marx, following his assertion that Hegel said ideas shape culture and society, whereas Marx said material development shapes society.    I contend they are the same thing; in Mesopotamia a long time ago someone discovered that certain grasses can be cultivated...and the rest is history, as they say. The discovery  preceded the idea of cultivation, which preceded the idea of advancement (aka 'civilization'.) And in cultivating food rather than hunting or gathering it, what to produce is already revealed, in an ever increasing complexity of material advancement. Meanwhile, there is no "'Marxist' social-engineering of human souls" required in order for people to consider aspects of "fair" allocation of the material production. Such concerns re "fairness" are innate to human beings.

I "tried", did I??

dialectical materialism, a philosophical approach to reality derived from the writings of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. For Marx and Engels, materialism meant that the material world, perceptible to the senses, has objective reality independent of mind or spirit. They did not deny the reality of mental or spiritual processes but affirmed that ideas could arise, therefore, only as products and reflections of material conditions. Marx and Engels understood materialism as the opposite of idealism, by which they meant any theory that treats matter as dependent on mind or spirit, or mind or spirit as capable of existing independently of matter. For them, the materialist and idealist views were irreconcilably opposed throughout the historical development of philosophy. They adopted a thoroughgoing materialist approach, holding that any attempt to combine or reconcile materialism with idealism must result in confusion and inconsistency.

Marx’s and Engels’ conception of dialectics owes much to the German idealist philosopher G.W.F. Hegel. In opposition to the “metaphysical” mode of thought, which viewed things in abstraction, each by itself and as though endowed with fixed properties, Hegelian dialectics considers things in their movements and changes, interrelations and interactions. Everything is in continual process of becoming and ceasing to be, in which nothing is permanent but everything changes and is eventually superseded. All things contain contradictory sides or aspects, whose tension or conflict is the driving force of change and eventually transforms or dissolves them. But whereas Hegel saw change and development as the expression of the world spirit, or Idea, realizing itself in nature and in human society, for Marx and Engels change was inherent in the nature of the material world. They therefore held that one could not, as Hegel tried, deduce the actual course of events from any “principles of dialectics”; the principles must be inferred from the events.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/dialectical-materialism

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 2:07am:

Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2022 at 10:34pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 8th, 2022 at 10:16pm: Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2022 at 8:32pm: You are predictably stupid in your response  - wiki, quick quotes, pc slogans - all to quickly get you to mindless 'im so clever' Here's the thing Frank: that's not debate. My point exactly - wiki, quick quotes, pc slogans - all to quickly get you to mindless 'im so clever'. Your are a lazy, Bbwianesque fool. You looked at the point Liddle made, you couldn't  think of anything to counter his point - so you posted some wiki crap about Liddle, not what he said. I cant take you seriously, pal, you are stupid the same way all the other googly, fb, social media illiterates are. It IS Brian! He slipped up a few times actually. I just kept stringing him along until his slips became more apparent. Anyway....a few of us were onto him from the get go. https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1583380619/1890

Anyone else reckon Brian aka GreatDivide is another Groggy id?

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 2:07am:

It IS Brian! He slipped up a few times actually. I just kept stringing him along until his slips became more apparent. Anyway....a few of us were onto him from the get go. https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1583380619/1890

That's not debate either. Blind sovereign individual ideologues like you and Frank often escape into trivial commentary like yours above. 

Did you even think about commenting on Liddle's article?

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 10:30am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 2:07am: It IS Brian! He slipped up a few times actually. I just kept stringing him along until his slips became more apparent. Anyway....a few of us were onto him from the get go. https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1583380619/1890 That's not debate either. Blind sovereign individual ideologues like you and Frank often escape into trivial commentary like yours above.  Did you even think about commenting on Liddle's article?

Given the importance of confirming your debate is in good faith, and not dictated by the Chinese security bureau:

Are you a Chinese national? Are you posting from China?

Awww poor Brian has been exposed as Greatdivide 😂🤣😆

Here are your tissues.

---

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 10:41am:

Awww poor Brian has been exposed as Greatdivide 😂🤣😆 Here are your tissues.

I don't believe Brian is TheGreatDivide.

I suspect that TheGreatDivide is a Chinese national posting approved CCP propaganda out of China or (worse) posting on behalf of the CCP out of Australia.

Frank wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 7:02am:

I "tried", did I?? dialectical materialism, a philosophical approach to reality derived from the writings of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. For Marx and Engels, materialism meant that the material world, perceptible to the senses, has objective reality independent of mind or spirit. They did not deny the reality of mental or spiritual processes but affirmed that ideas could arise, therefore, only as products and reflections of material conditions.

Yes; and does that preclude hunter-gatherers looking up at the night sky and inventing dream time myths?


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Marx and Engels understood materialism as the opposite of idealism, by which they meant any theory that treats matter as dependent on mind or spirit, or mind or spirit as capable of existing independently of matter.

Matter of course is NOT dependent on mind or spirit; the latter evolved from matter in an originally unconscious universe - except if we posit an eternal creator ie 'eternal consciousness' existing before the 'big bang'. 


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For them, the materialist and idealist views were irreconcilably opposed throughout the historical development of philosophy.

Well as noted above, materialism is a fact which preceded consciousness and hence idealism. Consciousness evolved, reaching its highest forms in the human cerebral cortex which perceives 'fairness' and 'justice', concepts which don't exist in the non-human natural world. 


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They adopted a thoroughgoing materialist approach, holding that any attempt to combine or reconcile materialism with idealism must result in confusion and inconsistency.

Well I am a little confused with that sentence....


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Marx’s and Engels’ conception of dialectics owes much to the German idealist philosopher G.W.F. Hegel.

Idealism: the concept of a just and fair world? 


Quote:

In opposition to the “metaphysical” mode of thought, which viewed things in abstraction, each by itself and as though endowed with fixed properties, Hegelian dialectics considers things in their movements and changes, interrelations and interactions. Everything is in continual process of becoming and ceasing to be, in which nothing is permanent but everything changes and is eventually superseded. All things contain contradictory sides or aspects, whose tension or conflict is the driving force of change and eventually transforms or dissolves them.

NOW I am confused.....but let's read on:


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But whereas Hegel saw change and development as the expression of the world spirit, or Idea, realizing itself in nature and in human society,

Ahha...so the 'world spirit/idea' existed before nature....


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for Marx and Engels change was inherent in the nature of the material world.

I don't see mutual exclusivity between the two ideas


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They therefore held that one could not, as Hegel tried, deduce the actual course of events from any “principles of dialectics”; the principles must be inferred from the events. https://www.britannica.com/topic/dialectical-materialism

So, you can't deduce the course of events from logic as asserted by Hegel, the logic must be inferred from the events.

Yes well, as I have shown in my commentary, ideas reside in consciousness, and consciousness is introduced into the universe, either by God or by spontaneous evolution of ever increasingly complex life forms.

So where does this leave us?

Well I'm still able to assert the idea of 'fairness' - a concern of Marx - is innate in humans and not dependent on social engineering.

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 10:41am:

Awww poor Brian has been exposed as Greatdivide

I don't think so Lisa, they're two entirely different characters, obviously with different agendas



thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 10^th, 2022 at 9:55pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Feb 10th, 2022 at 9:12pm: Ok. but what is cultivation without first having the idea of it? Serendipity.

Would you like to go into more detail?

serendipity |ˌserənˈdipitē|
noun
the occurrence and development of events by chance in a happy or beneficial way : a fortunate stroke of serendipity | a series of small serendipities.

Is there something wrong with serendipity, if it benefits society, any society at all?

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 11:29am:

Would you like to go into more detail? serendipity |ˌserənˈdipitē| noun the occurrence and development of events by chance in a happy or beneficial way : a fortunate stroke of serendipity | a series of small serendipities.

Someone discovered the seeds of certain grasses were edible....serendipity? That's what gave rise to the idea of cultivation.


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Is there something wrong with serendipity, if it benefits society, any society at all?

Not at all; we would probably still be living in the stone age without it.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 10:39am:

Given the importance of confirming your debate is in good faith...

Rest assured, I always debate in good faith...unlike many name-callers here.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 11:46am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 10:39am: Given the importance of confirming your debate is in good faith... Rest assured, I always debate in good faith.

Not if you have been directed to post only pro-CCP propaganda.

Are you a Chinese national? Are you posting from China?

You seem to have a problem answering these questions.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 10:57am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 10:41am: Awww poor Brian has been exposed as Greatdivide 😂🤣😆 Here are your tissues. I don't believe Brian is TheGreatDivide. I suspect that TheGreatDivide is a Chinese national posting approved CCP propaganda out of China or (worse) posting on behalf of the CCP out of Australia.

TheGreatDivide also shares the LaughTilICry id too.

For those interested in debate (unlike Lisa)

eg 'Western culture'...... when China becomes the largest economy in the world:

https://academic.oup.com/cjip/article/11/1/1/4844055

Chinese Values vs. Liberalism: What Ideology Will Shape the International Normative Order?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 12:29pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 11:46am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 10:39am: Given the importance of confirming your debate is in good faith... Rest assured, I always debate in good faith. Not if you have been directed to post only pro-CCP propaganda. Are you a Chinese national? Are you posting from China? You seem to have a problem answering these questions.

It's not necessary for thegreatdivide to answer those personal questions. A poster only has to stay on topic to debate in good faith

The dividing line between Western Culture and Eastern Culture/Socialism is becoming blurred

For example ...

https://www.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/styles/content_x1/public/2022-02/BDM_birth_commemorative_lunar_tiger_header_image.png?

https://click.comms.service.nsw.gov.au/?qs=48a11cd6bc2d89da1cb10c481d45b0e76114a368ed428ec009ba9362d2096f001cf74278afb3a4db4b30ac1e439aa93e6cd423c2534654814af8fab3c9808c9a

New generations in Iceland etc might get the impression that Australia has tigers, and, as Rome conquered Carthage, China has now conquering nations in the South Pacific

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 1:47pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 12:29pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 11:46am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 10:39am: Given the importance of confirming your debate is in good faith... Rest assured, I always debate in good faith. Not if you have been directed to post only pro-CCP propaganda. Are you a Chinese national? Are you posting from China? You seem to have a problem answering these questions. It's not necessary for thegreatdivide to answer those personal questions. A poster only has to stay on topic to debate in good faith The dividing line between Western Culture and Eastern Culture/Socialism is becoming blurred For example ...

Given the CCP is an enemy regime of the Australian people, his status as a Chinese national posting in China should be open to questioning. Those posters cannot post on or read international sites without permission. Anything he does post must be state-approved via the CCP security bureau. It must be approved propaganda not his personal opinion.

He is not being asked to provide information that personally identifies him.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 2:01pm:

Given the CCP is an enemy regime of the Australian people..

.

BS. Xi himself spoke in the Oz parliament less than a decade ago.

What's happened since then is China keeps doubling its wealth every 10 years, so that we now see the paranoid Western sovereign individual ideologues tilting at windmills in a big way.

China woke up fast when their first internationally competitive world-leading technology company Huawei was banned on trumped-up national security grounds, and China indeed felt slighted, and now they are feeling entitled to react to such slights.

Bur your assertion China is "an enemy regime of the Australian people" is sheer ideological evil.  Well done.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 2:36pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 2:01pm: Given the CCP is an enemy regime of the Australian people.. . BS. Xi himself spoke in the Oz parliament less than a decade ago. What's happened since then is China keeps doubling its wealth every 10 years, so that we now see the paranoid Western sovereign individual ideologues tilting at windmills in a big way. China woke up fast when their first internationally competitive world-leading technology company Huawei was banned on trumped-up national security grounds, and China indeed felt slighted, and now they are feeling entitled to react to such slights. Bur your assertion China is "an enemy regime of the Australian people" is sheer ideological evil.  Well done.

I will take it you are a Chinese national posting from China, so your opinions are not your own.

You are required to approve of the harassment and bashing of Australian citizens if they criticise the CCP.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 1:19pm:

For those interested in debate (unlike Lisa) eg 'Western culture'...... when China becomes the largest economy in the world: https://academic.oup.com/cjip/article/11/1/1/4844055 Chinese Values vs. Liberalism: What Ideology Will Shape the International Normative Order?

;) :D :D :D :D :D :D

Really????    ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Chinese Values vs. Liberalism: What Ideology Will Shape the International Normative Order?
Xuetong Yan
The Chinese Journal of International Politics, Volume 11, Issue 1, Spring 2018, Pages 1–22, https://doi.org/10.1093/cjip/poy001
Published: 08 February 2018





It's the clash of civilisations, after all. Huntington saw it. Islam and the West are clashing already. Islam and China, ditto. Now the West and China. China will lose AGAIN. (Although the West is doing everything to lose politically and economically but it will prevail because, simply, it is humane as China is not).

Frank wrote on Feb 11^th, 2022 at 7:36pm:

It's the clash of civilisations, after all. Huntington saw it. Islam and the West are clashing already. Islam and China, ditto. Now the West and China. China will lose AGAIN. (Although the West is doing everything to lose politically and economically but it will prevail because, simply, it is humane as China is not).

The West is "humane"? You mean the West's sovereign individual ideology which despises 'common prosperity' is humane? How so? The US insists on free markets regardless of outcome, how is that "humane"?

As Trump noted in the 2016 US election campaign (re US inner-city black ghettos): "You are living in poverty, your neighborhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken, your young men are in prison..." 

Free markets alone can never fix that.

Meanwhile, when China achieves 'a prosperous socialist society in all respects' and eliminates the scourge of poverty as noted by Trump above in the US,  the linked article suggests a fusion of East and West concepts to overcome your "clash of civilisations":

"The Christian tradition values the concept of equality as one enjoined by the natural law of life.36 However, due to inherent genetic differences and divergent social environments, disparities between human beings are inevitable, as apparent in variances in intelligence, strength, height, weight, and athleticism, as well as in social differences rooted in family background, education, peers, and so on. Focusing on equality without taking these differences into consideration is equivalent to advocating the jungle law of unquestioned equal rights and zero distinctions between the advantaged and the disadvantaged. The individualist value of liberalism thus often leads to conflict rather than cooperation among human beings. Even when defined in terms of competitive opportunity,37 under circumstances where violent means are the best option for winning competitions, absolute equality can still generate life-and-death rivalry".

"Benevolence (ren) is the core idea and social norm of Confucianism, which as a governing principle calls upon state leaders to empathize with and care for their peoples".

That contrast between Christian "equality" and Confucian "benevolence" is very significant, in guiding the the design of the upcoming new world order.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 12^th, 2022 at 11:27am:

Frank wrote on Feb 11th, 2022 at 7:36pm: It's the clash of civilisations, after all. Huntington saw it. Islam and the West are clashing already. Islam and China, ditto. Now the West and China. China will lose AGAIN. (Although the West is doing everything to lose politically and economically but it will prevail because, simply, it is humane as China is not). The West is "humane"? You mean the West's sovereign individual ideology which despises 'common prosperity' is humane? How so? The US insists on free markets regardless of outcome, how is that "humane"?

This is moronic to an unbelievable degree.

The West invented almost everything in the modern world between the 17th and 20th centuries, including charitable organisations like hospitals, schools, animal welfare organisations, the welfare state, preservation of historically significant architecture, etc - all on the basis of free, sovereign individual's solidarity and common cause.
The West gave us almost all humane, cooperative gifts such as science, the universities, artistic and scientific societies, unmatched art, music, literature; exploration, recording of remote and unique languages and cultures; engineering feats like the railways, aviation, shipping.

The West is UNIQUELY humane, uniquely cooperative precisely because its sovereign individuals come together FREELY, in solidarity, in cooperative enterprises.


.

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 12^th, 2022 at 11:27am:

That contrast between Christian "equality" and Confucian "benevolence" is very significant, in guiding the the design of the upcoming new world order.

Which new world order is that? ... there's three or four new world orders

Frank wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 5:29pm:

This is moronic to an unbelievable degree.

Hmm....offering a debate, so let's read on.


Quote:

The West invented almost everything in the modern world between the 17th and 20th centuries, including charitable organisations like hospitals, schools, animal welfare organisations, the welfare state, preservation of historically significant architecture, etc - all on the basis of free, sovereign individual's solidarity and common cause.

Well if you are talking about post ancient history (after Christ) , you need to acknowledge the contributions of the Islamic world in the 9th to 12th centuries, and China in the Tang and Song dynasties.


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The West gave us almost all humane, cooperative gifts such as science, the universities, artistic and scientific societies, unmatched art, music, literature; exploration, recording of remote and unique languages and cultures; engineering feats like the railways, aviation, shipping.

Again, the West's contributions (post collapse of the Roman Empire) mainly developed from the European Renaissance (16th century on)....with concomitant  devastating wars and poverty. 


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The West is UNIQUELY humane, uniquely cooperative precisely because its sovereign individuals come together FREELY, in solidarity, in cooperative enterprises.

Er....oh dear....the continuing slaughterhouse of history is every-bit as shameful in the West as in the East, because  "free, sovereign individuals" insist on taking the much abused concept of Law into their own hands, deluded fools that they are.

And the East abandoned Confucian 'benevolent authority' ages ago, for the same reason.

We need to learn from Pascal:

"What a chimera is Man! What a novelty, a monster, a chaos, a contradiction, a prodigy! Judge of all things, an imbecile worm; depository of truth, and sewer of error and doubt; the glory and refuse of the universe.” ― Blaise Pascal, Pensées.

Freedom can only exist if we are all free from war, poverty and disease.

 

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 6:15pm:

Which new world order is that? ... there's three or four new world orders

The new multi-polar world order, when China (and then later, India)  is a larger economy than the US..not too far away.

Western individualism is a supreme positive and it started with the Socratic question of 'what is the good life?' and with the answer that still animates the West: the unexamined life is not worth living.  Western individualism is about virtue and vice, about character.

The stupid, materialistic Chinese communist propaganda, being spouted by ignorant fools, distorts it into what motivates them - materialistic avarice.  Fools like you always bang on about the size of the Chinese economy, as if materialism was everything to which you sacrifice your Chinese individuals.  As if Party propaganda was beyond examining.

And so, being Orientals, you lead  unexamined lives, full of self-contradictory bluster and bs.

Frank wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 12:49pm:

Western individualism is a supreme positive and it started with the Socratic question of 'what is the good life?'

Yet the questions raised by Plato re good governance  remain to be solved...the "good life" is NOT compatible with war, poverty and disease. 


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and with the answer that still animates the West: the unexamined life is not worth living.  Western individualism is about virtue and vice, about character.

That's only half the story; Western individualism and its  bastard offspring neoliberalism acquiesce in joblessness and poverty....and war.   


Quote:

The stupid, materialistic Chinese communist propaganda, being spouted by ignorant fools, distorts it into what motivates them - materialistic avarice.

Common prosperity is the sine qua non of a decent society. The bastard neoliberalism will NEVER achieve it, because different individuals have different abilities.   


Quote:

Fools like you always bang on about the size of the Chinese economy, as if materialism was everything to which you sacrifice your Chinese individuals.  As if Party propaganda was beyond examining.

China has a way to go to achieving 'common prosperity', and far from "sacrificing individuals" which is neoliberalism's game,  the CCP intends to implement common prosperity ASAP.

Of course that also means China will be the largest economy in the world, nevertheless, the CCP is NOT stating that  as its goal, which is a "prosperous socialist society in all respects" (including art, science and culture).   


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And so, being Orientals, you lead  unexamined lives, full of self-contradictory bluster and bs.

Actually the lives of the latest Olympic-gold-winning Chinese ice-skating pair are inspirational.

Beyond the Culture of Repudiation


Like classical liberalism, this conservatism opposes the petty dictates of a managerial state and the monstrous totalitarianisms of the 20th century. But it goes further, continuing to find a place for religion and high culture. Without sensible limits or conditions, liberalism is prone to follow the logic of liberation and emancipation to its bitter, self-defeating conclusion. Scruton is left ambivalent about the Enlightenment—neither adamantly opposing nor endorsing all its premises and conclusions.

He is also sensitive to modern conservatism’s “classical roots.” More than a defense of tradition, conservatism is an approach to life and politics that appreciates enduring truths about human nature. Its defense of moderation, constitutionalism, and the cardinal virtues (courage, prudence, justice and temperance) owes much to Aristotle, for example. As Scruton puts it, conservatism “calls upon aspects of the human condition that can be witnessed in every civilization and at every period of history.” His conservatism is Aristotelian, too, in its recognition that human beings are social and political animals “who live naturally in communities, bound together by mutual trust.”
https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/beyond-the-culture-of-repudiation/

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 1:12pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 20th, 2022 at 12:49pm: Western individualism is a supreme positive and it started with the Socratic question of 'what is the good life?' Yet the questions raised by Plato re good governance  remain to be solved...the "good life" is NOT compatible with war, poverty and disease.

:D :D
Funny, coming from a Chinese, menacing everyone, starving millions to death, spreding bat viruses modified for biological warfare.

Frank wrote on Feb 20^th, 2022 at 1:35pm:

Funny, coming from a Chinese, menacing everyone,

Lies.


Quote:

starving millions to death,

past historical mistakes


Quote:

spreding bat viruses modified for biological warfare.

More lies.

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2022 at 6:15pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 12th, 2022 at 11:27am: That contrast between Christian "equality" and Confucian "benevolence" is very significant, in guiding the the design of the upcoming new world order. Which new world order is that? ... there's three or four new world orders

New World Order (via Politics): Namerica, Samerica, Mid-East, Sahul (Oz).

Big Brother Media (corrupting Politics): Europe, Asia, Africa & Oceania.

Simple.