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Message started by freediver on Jan 25th, 2011 at 10:38pm

Title: reluctance of Muslims to criticise lunatics
Post by freediver on Jan 25th, 2011 at 10:38pm
We were discussing an Australian Muslim calling for the violent overthrow of the government to install Shariah law. An article from The Australian suggested that 'moderate' Muslims are hesitant to criticise these people because they have varying levels of support within the Islamic community. Islamic leaders risk alienating many Muslims if they criticise lunatics.

Abu responded by suggesting that it is part of Australian culture to not speak out against extremists and that mainstream Muslims need have no interest at all in condemning extremist Muslims unless they break the law, and that even then it is the job of the police to look into it:

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 22nd, 2011 at 10:03pm:

Islamic groups and leaders have frequently been criticised for failing to take on these groups, and for not being sufficiently vocal in rejecting their message.

As I've told you many times before fd, and neither should we be taking them on. They are exercising their rights within Australian law, if _you_ don't like it, then you're the one who has to change, because that's part of Australia's way of life. Like it or leave it (as the old saying goes).

If they break the law, then it's up to the authorities to deal with them (not us).

Not satisfied with this excuse, Abu then went on to equate speaking out against lunatics with lynching them. Not sure why he thought of lynching as it was pretty much out of context:

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 22nd, 2011 at 10:34pm:
Muslims are supposed to form their own vigilante groups, and spend their time hunting down anyone who says something that fd doesn't agree with? Seriously, you're a whacko.

Abu then went on to justify the unwillingness of Muslims to publicly criticise lunatics by suggesting there are no movements in Australia against Nazism and racism.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2011 at 7:11am:
Fact is the vast majority of Aussies are completely ignorant and apathetic to their very existence. In fact I don't even think we have an anti-Nazi/Racism movement here. And in most countries where there is one, it's usually the socialists who are behind it, and they are certainly not the mainstream of society.

But wait, there's more!

Abu then came up with an interesting alternative theory about why Muslims don't criticse lunatics. It seems to be an unexpected result of taqiyya (deception of non-Muslims). Basically, Muslim leaders do not publicly speak out against these lunatics because 'moderate' Muslims then assume that they are simply lying for the benefit of western media and that they actually support them.

Abu actually said this.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 24th, 2011 at 7:11am:
Btw, condemning something publicly is a load of garbage. It's nothing but an empty attempt to showboat. And people can quite easily publicly condemn something, that privately they support. In fact I'm pretty sure that most of those who do these very public condemnations actually are the biggest supporters of the things they condemn. Best cover isn't it?

This may seem like absurdly convoluted mental gymnastics to make excuses for the behaviour of Muslims, especially to those not familiar with Islam and who expect people to simply say what they mean, (particularly spiritual leaders). However, Abu's theory does appear to have some basis in reality. The British documentary 'Undercover Mosque' uncovered some rather chilling examples of Muslim leaders publicly saying one thing to non-Muslims and the opposite to fellow Muslims.

Stephen Crittenden: I think we see that al taqiyya happening in front of our eyes in this program, in particular it's when there's a visit to the mosque of a group of non-Muslims, an inter-faith meeting. They're all very nice to their faces and the moment they leave we see what happens.

David Henshaw: Yes. It's a sequence in the program that most people have talked about. Regent's Park Mosque is officially committed to inter-faith dialogue which we all believe in, and at one stage our undercover reporter films a group of Christians visiting the mosque and the preacher and the Women's Circle treat them kindly and talk about 'We're all people of the book and we all come from the same history'. Just as soon as that group of visitors leaves, the language changes completely. 'Christianity is vile', the preacher says. 'It's disgusting going past their churches and seeing what they do in there.' So yes, pretty two-faced, and I understand what you're talking about. You know, the traditional idea that you can lie to the unbeliever, that's not a sin.

Not sure why Muslims would look to someone like that for spiritual guidance, especially in an 'enlightened' western country. Perhaps Abu can shed some light on it.

Title: Re: reluctance of Muslims to criticise lunatics
Post by freediver on Jan 25th, 2011 at 10:42pm
Some other interesting things exposed by the documentary. This points more toward the theory that 'moderate' Muslims don't criticise the lunatics because they agree with them.

Undercover Mosque generated controversy because it contained footage of British imams making the following statements:

   * Dr. Ijaz Mian on the subject of non-Muslim laws: “You cannot accept the rule of the kaffir…[w]e have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others.”[3]
   * Abu Usamah saying of apostates: “If the imam wants to crucify him he should crucify him. The person is put up on the wood and he's left there to bleed to death for three days.”[4]
   * Abu Usamah speaking on the deficiency of women's minds: “Allah has created the woman, even if she gets a PhD, deficient. Her intellect is incomplete, deficient. She may be suffering from hormones that will make her emotional. It takes two witnesses of a woman to equal the one witness of the man.”[4]
   * Praises the killer of a British soldier serving in Afghanistan, stating "The hero of Islam is the one who separated his head from his shoulders.”[5]
   * Abdullah el-Faisal: “You have to bomb the Indian businesses, and as for the Jews you kill them physically.”[6]
   * Advocates violent Jihad against the non-Muslims and predicting that an army of Muslims will arise against the non-Muslims in England.[3]
   * Dr Bilal Philips on marriage with girls before puberty: “The prophet Muhammad practically outlined the rules regarding marriage prior to puberty. With his practice, he clarified what is permissible, and that is why we shouldn't have any issues about an older man marrying a younger woman, which is looked down upon by this society today, but we know that Prophet Mohammed practised it, it wasn’t abuse or exploitation, it was marriage.”[4]
   * Condemns Muslim integration into British society.[3]
   * Calls for the overthrow of the British government and democracy.[7] “[T]hey will fight in the cause of Allah. I encourage all of you to be from amongst them, to begin to cultivate ourselves for the time that is fast approaching where the tables are going to turn and the Muslims are going to be in the position of being uppermost in strength, and when that happens, people won’t get killed – unjustly.”[6]
   * Dr. Mian: “You are in a situation in which you have to live like a state within a state, until you take over.”[8]
   * Al Jibali: “By the age of ten, it becomes an obligation on us to force her to wear hijab, and if she doesn’t wear hijab, we hit her.”[6]
   * Dr. Mian praised the Saudi religious police practice of imprisoning people who do not pray: “They send the police, and they say, well, if you don’t come for prayer, close your shop, we will arrest you But if you don’t, then we have to bring the punishment on you, you will be killed, and nobody will pray on you.”[6]
   * Abu Usamah saying that homosexuals should be killed by throwing them off a cliff, stating “throw [the homosexual] off the mountain.”[6]

Abu, the bit about public condemnation being nothing more than 'showboating' - is this part of Islamic tradition, or did you just make it up?

Title: Re: reluctance of Muslims to criticise lunatics
Post by Yadda on Jan 26th, 2011 at 1:54am

freediver wrote on Jan 25th, 2011 at 10:38pm:
An article from The Australian suggested that 'moderate' Muslims are hesitant to criticise these people because they have varying levels of support within the Islamic community. Islamic leaders risk alienating many Muslims if they criticise lunatics.

But surely FD, we all know that these 'extremist Muslims' are not real moslems?

They are 'moslem impersonators' who give ISLAM, and moslems a bad reputation by their un-ISLAMIC conduct.

AND THEREFORE, in acting un-ISLAMICLY, these 'moslem impersonators' become 'unbelievers' [by their conduct].

AND THEREFORE, moslem community leaders would be free to criticise these 'persons' [i.e. 'moslem impersonators'] who are acting un-ISLAMICLY, surely ???

a big, /SARC OFF


ISLAM is deceit.

If moslems act violently, non-moslems are told by the 'other' moslems, that such people are not real moslems.

'Don't you know, that those people acting violently, or criminally, are obviously 'moslem impersonators', YOU DUMB KUFFAR'.
/sarc off

BUT, we are told that moslem community leaders, and the moslem community, cannot condemn those people and such violent/criminal behaviour, even when spokesmen for the moslem community deem such people to be 'moslem impersonators' [who are bringing ISLAM, and 'good' moslems into dis-repute].

But let a non-moslem teacher call a teddy bear Mohammed.

Or let non-moslems satirise moslem violence in cartoons, AND WHAT DO WE GET FROM THE MOSLEM COMMUNITY ???

Outrage and threats of violence, and murder;

On those placards...

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

When are you non-moslems going to wake up to yourselves ???

Title: Re: reluctance of Muslims to criticise lunatics
Post by salad in on Jan 26th, 2011 at 8:26am

freediver wrote on Jan 25th, 2011 at 10:38pm:
'moderate' Muslims

May we please know what a 'moderate muslim' looks like? Do they have a large 'MM' stamped on their foreheads as they stream through our airports' arrival gates or the Christmas Island detention centre?

May we know which passage in the holy qur'an allows muslims to vary the word of mo? Does the qur'an say something like "in the year 2010 and subsequent years the harshness of the words in the qur'an may be relaxed and muslims are free to embrace Xtians, Jews, Janes, Falun Gongers, Hindus and any other member of an alleged religion?

I'm a New Age Muslim and I seek answers to these and other complex issues.

Go in peace.

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