Australian Politics Forum - Israel's right to exist

Frank

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #345 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 10:21am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 9:33am:

Frederick "the great's" Prussia was the reason the Allies abolished the Prussian state and forbade any reference to Prussia in the new West and East German nation-states.

So much for the "great Enlightenment thinker"

Silly.

The 18th century was much more complex and interesting, and its great figures like Frederick with it, than can be reduced to a silly historicist quip about it all culminating in the Allies abolishing Prussia. Just silly.

There was, evidently, a lot more to the Enlightenment, to Frederick, to Prussia before 1947 than your little 'explanation'.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #346 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 10:29am

Frank wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 10:21am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 9:33am:

Frederick "the great's" Prussia was the reason the Allies abolished the Prussian state and forbade any reference to Prussia in the new West and East German nation-states.

So much for the "great Enlightenment thinker"

Silly.

The 18th century was much more complex and interesting, and its great figures like Frederick with it, than can be reduced to a silly historicist quip about it all culminating in the Allies abolishing Prussia. Just silly.

There was, evidently, a lot more to the Enlightenment, to Frederick, to Prussia before 1947 than your little 'explanation'.

A lot more to Frederick 'the Great' than marching armies and statues... and casual conversations with priests about god's existence, that's for sure.

An 18th-century Jew-hater who inspired 20th-century murderous German fascism.

It was the Nazi obsession with Frederick and all things Prussian that compelled the Allies to end the scourge of that state and obliterate its legacy and memory.

.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #347 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 10:48am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 4:55pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 12:02pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 4:55pm:

The UN peacekeepers may have been required to be unarmed, which would have been a death sentence.

There-in lies the problem...

I envisage a UNSC acting with one voice, who - after fully explaining the law to everyone - can command the respect of would-be law breakers, without firing a shot.

How would they command respect when one side is offended by the existence of the other on (mis)appropriated land?

By clearly outlining the methods to maintain the peace, meaning any law breakers will be forfeiting their lives.

Today of course, now that the Arab world accepts the fact of Israel's existence, respect of the UNSC's potential overwhelming force (when speaking with one voice) by the majority on both sides would result in the establishment of UN 181, with peace accepted by both sides.

Quote:

Britain was right. Neither option at UNSCOP was workable or enforceable.

The British tried everything, but they couldn't entice either away from that one piece of land.

This conflict is a clash of two just causes.

Not really, the UN should never have voted on the Partition, a vote which resulted in the Arab violence toward the new Israeli state, UNTIL the UN could implement UN res 181 and maintain peace between the 2 states.

And since the 2 most powerful members of the UNSC had demanded and received access to the veto (against Evatt's wishes) - dealing the fatal blow to UN peace-keeping abilities, such an outcome - for peace - based on deterrence, was unachievable.

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« Last Edit: Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:00am by thegreatdivide »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #348 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:06am

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 10:48am:

By clearly outlining the methods to maintain the peace, meaning any law breakers will be forfeiting their lives.

Both sides had entire wings of their armed forces more than prepared to martyr themselves to the cause. They believed it to be a high honour to die for the cause rather than surrender, so...

There was never going to be a peace to maintain, not from the first minute of Israel's declaration as a nation-state.

The Arab states were outraged that foreign states (Australia, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, India, Iran, the Netherlands, Peru, Sweden, Uruguay, and Yugoslavia) agreed to be part of determining the fate of ancient Arab lands in forming UNSCOP. They saw the entire project as a grievous insult to Arab dignity and destiny.

They also were not unaware of Evatt's personal preference towards carving up their land like a pig and handing it over to a foreign, effectively European, people.

Above the religious issues, they were under no illusions that a proposed Israel would become a haven for projecting European power in the region, even against Arab interests if need be.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #349 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:15am

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 10:48am:

Not really, the UN should never have voted on the Partition, a vote which resulted in the Arab violence toward the new Israeli state, UNTIL the UN could implement UN res 181 and maintain peace between the 2 states.

And since the 2 most powerful members of the UNSC had demanded and received access to the veto (against Evatt's wishes) - dealing the fatal blow to UN peace-keeping abilities, such an outcome - for peace - based on deterrence, was unachievable.

The second UNSCOP debated option was a united Palestine under Arab control with Jewish autonomous enclaves.

While this was initially the most popular option, there were real problems of border and personal security for the Jewish settlers in these enclaves. That, and a guarantee of their free movement around the enclaves and the unobstructed transport of goods to and from them.

Evatt leaned towards partition and covertly did everything he could to ensure that partition was the option that UNSCOP submitted to the UNSG.

Both options proposed Jerusalem as an international city governed by the UN, and to this day, it is part of Resolution 181 - an obvious reason why Res 181 is effectively defunct.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #350 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 12:08pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:06am:

The Arab states were outraged that foreign states (Australia, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, India, Iran, the Netherlands, Peru, Sweden, Uruguay, and Yugoslavia) agreed to be part of determining the fate of ancient Arab lands in forming UNSCOP. They saw the entire project as a grievous insult to Arab dignity and destiny.

I wonder how all Australians would feel about a UN committee formed to determine the sovereignty of, say, parts of northern Australia comprising Tajikistan, Ecuador, Nigeria, Kenya, Albania, Saudi Arabia, Laos, Peru, Kyrgyzstan, Belarus and Iceland.

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Daves2017

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #351 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 12:52pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 12:08pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:06am:

The Arab states were outraged that foreign states (Australia, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, India, Iran, the Netherlands, Peru, Sweden, Uruguay, and Yugoslavia) agreed to be part of determining the fate of ancient Arab lands in forming UNSCOP. They saw the entire project as a grievous insult to Arab dignity and destiny.

I wonder how all Australians would feel about a UN committee formed to determine the sovereignty of, say, parts of northern Australia comprising Tajikistan, Ecuador, Nigeria, Kenya, Albania, Saudi Arabia, Laos, Peru, Kyrgyzstan, Belarus and Iceland.

That’s an interesting point.
I was thinking how we all react if the UN passed a resolution determining Australia indigenous peoples are the true owners and all land was too be returned to them?

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I don’t care about Australians who are living in poverty or their businesses have gone bankrupt or those working hard and still struggling to survive.

BAN THE BURKA!

That’s fair more important!

Ffs

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #352 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 1:25pm

Daves2017 wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 12:52pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 12:08pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:06am:

The Arab states were outraged that foreign states (Australia, Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, India, Iran, the Netherlands, Peru, Sweden, Uruguay, and Yugoslavia) agreed to be part of determining the fate of ancient Arab lands in forming UNSCOP. They saw the entire project as a grievous insult to Arab dignity and destiny.

I wonder how all Australians would feel about a UN committee formed to determine the sovereignty of, say, parts of northern Australia comprising Tajikistan, Ecuador, Nigeria, Kenya, Albania, Saudi Arabia, Laos, Peru, Kyrgyzstan, Belarus and Iceland.

That’s an interesting point.
I was thinking how we all react if the UN passed a resolution determining Australia indigenous peoples are the true owners and all land was too be returned to them?

Yes, exactly.

The concept of the UN's founding was and is noble... even. from a distance at least, inspired along the lines of Enlightenment thinking.

But, like all high ideals, they're born of poetry, but doomed to live in prose.

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 54356 Gender:	Re: Israel's right to exist Reply #353 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 2:01pm The Muslims were also conquerors in the Levant. Israel is like the reconquista of Iberia from Muslim invaders.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #354 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:30pm

Frank wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 2:01pm:

The Muslims were also conquerors in the Levant.
Israel is like the reconquista of Iberia from Muslim invaders.

Geez, you're on a roll today... First, Frederick, the Jew-hating 'great enlightenment thinker', now the Reconquista, completed by Ferdinand and Isabella, who immediately afterwards expelled all Jews from Spain by decree.

Many ended up in the Caribbean.

Those who remained faced the choice of conversion to Christianity or death.

Those who converted faced persecution by the Spanish Inquisition, the Spanish Catholic bishops being unconvinced of the sincerity of their conversions.

Ferdinand and Isabella's Jew-hating decree was only formally revoked in 1968. I wonder what happened in 1967 that may have prompted that revocation. Did Franco lose his water over something?

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Frank

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #355 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:35pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:30pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 2:01pm:

The Muslims were also conquerors in the Levant.
Israel is like the reconquista of Iberia from Muslim invaders.

Geez, you're on a roll today... First, Frederick, the Jew-hating 'great enlightenment thinker', now the Reconquista, completed by Ferdinand and Isabella, who immediately afterwards expelled all Jews from Spain by decree.

Many ended up in the Caribbean.

Those who remained faced the choice of conversion to Christianity or death.

Those who converted faced persecution by the Spanish Inquisition, the Spanish Catholic bishops being unconvinced of the sincerity of their conversions.

Ferdinand and Isabella's Jew-hating decree was only formally revoked in 1968. I wonder what happened in 1967 that may have prompted that revocation. Did Franco lose his water over something?

Relevance?

Spain was reconquered. Israel was reconquered. Come to think of it, Greece, the Balkans were reconquered from the Muslims. Sicily.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #356 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:40pm

Frank wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:35pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:30pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 2:01pm:

The Muslims were also conquerors in the Levant.
Israel is like the reconquista of Iberia from Muslim invaders.

Geez, you're on a roll today... First, Frederick, the Jew-hating 'great enlightenment thinker', now the Reconquista, completed by Ferdinand and Isabella, who immediately afterwards expelled all Jews from Spain by decree.

Many ended up in the Caribbean.

Those who remained faced the choice of conversion to Christianity or death.

Those who converted faced persecution by the Spanish Inquisition, the Spanish Catholic bishops being unconvinced of the sincerity of their conversions.

Ferdinand and Isabella's Jew-hating decree was only formally revoked in 1968. I wonder what happened in 1967 that may have prompted that revocation. Did Franco lose his water over something?

Relevance?

Any European events or characters you got stashed today not directly associated with jew-hating?

Maybe the kraut in you is leeching out.

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Frank

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #357 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:59pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:40pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:35pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:30pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 2:01pm:

The Muslims were also conquerors in the Levant.
Israel is like the reconquista of Iberia from Muslim invaders.

Geez, you're on a roll today... First, Frederick, the Jew-hating 'great enlightenment thinker', now the Reconquista, completed by Ferdinand and Isabella, who immediately afterwards expelled all Jews from Spain by decree.

Many ended up in the Caribbean.

Those who remained faced the choice of conversion to Christianity or death.

Those who converted faced persecution by the Spanish Inquisition, the Spanish Catholic bishops being unconvinced of the sincerity of their conversions.

Ferdinand and Isabella's Jew-hating decree was only formally revoked in 1968. I wonder what happened in 1967 that may have prompted that revocation. Did Franco lose his water over something?

Relevance?

Any European events or characters you got stashed today not directly associated with jew-hating?

Maybe the kraut in you is leeching out.

You descend very rapidly into Bbwiyawnesque stupidity and karnal-like grimacing if your framing of things is not fully accepted. Out pop the psychosexual tension, the gauche 'misgendering' ( Cheesy

) the silly bluster about krauts ( from someone with a German mystic alias).

Spain was REconquered, as was Greece, the Balkans, Sicily and most recently Israel, from their previous Muslim conquerers. But like wind-up idiot, you are framing that as jew hatred.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #358 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 4:25pm

Frank wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:59pm:

You descend very rapidly into Bbwiyawnesque stupidity and karnal-like grimacing if your framing of things is not fully accepted. Out pop the psychosexual tension, the gauche 'misgendering' ( Cheesy

) the silly bluster about krauts ( from someone with a German mystic alias).

Spain was REconquered, as was Greece, the Balkans, Sicily and most recently Israel, from their previous Muslim conquerers. But like wind-up idiot, you are framing that as jew hatred.

You've got a thing for this Brian poster, Agatha Frank (they/them)... you've even named him Bwian... Is he gay with a speech impediment? Did he post as a woman?

Muslims never expelled Jews, but.

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Frank

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #359 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 4:50pm

(MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 4:25pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 3:59pm:

You descend very rapidly into Bbwiyawnesque stupidity and karnal-like grimacing if your framing of things is not fully accepted. Out pop the psychosexual tension, the gauche 'misgendering' ( Cheesy

) the silly bluster about krauts ( from someone with a German mystic alias).

Spain was REconquered, as was Greece, the Balkans, Sicily and most recently Israel, from their previous Muslim conquerers. But like wind-up idiot, you are framing that as jew hatred.

You've got a thing for this Brian poster, Agatha Frank (they/them)... you've even named him Bwian... Is he gay with a speech impediment? Did he post as a woman?

Muslims never expelled Jews, but.

No, they just made them pay extra tax, kept them in ghettos, made them wear distinguishing clothing, do their translations, accounting, doctoring and general brain work.

Bbwiyawn is a ready shorthand for vain, snivelling, vacuous, spineless and stupid in both novel and totally predictable ways. You share his vanity and a degree of predictable stupidity of someone not used to disagreement and so unable to self-review.. Tsk, tsk Roll Eyes

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