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Israel's right to exist (Read 9109 times)
Frank
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #330 - Nov 13th, 2025 at 7:36pm
 
Israel exists.
Palestine doesn't.

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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #331 - Nov 13th, 2025 at 8:34pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 13th, 2025 at 7:36pm:
Israel exists.
Palestine doesn't.


After all the history, the Byzantine politicking, the clash of two great and valid causes... that is all that should be said of it by those of us on the outside.
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #332 - Nov 13th, 2025 at 9:51pm
 
Looking at all the rubble and destruction they brought upon themselves.
I don't think Palestine exists either.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #333 - Nov 14th, 2025 at 12:02pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 13th, 2025 at 4:55pm:
The UN peacekeepers may have been required to be unarmed, which would have been a death sentence.


There-in lies the problem...

I envisage a UNSC acting with one voice, who - after fully explaining the law to everyone -  can command the respect  of would-be law breakers, without firing a shot. 



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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #334 - Nov 14th, 2025 at 4:55pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14th, 2025 at 12:02pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 13th, 2025 at 4:55pm:
The UN peacekeepers may have been required to be unarmed, which would have been a death sentence.


There-in lies the problem...

I envisage a UNSC acting with one voice, who - after fully explaining the law to everyone -  can command the respect  of would-be law breakers, without firing a shot. 

How would they command respect when one side is offended by the existence of the other on (mis)appropriated land?

Britain was right. Neither option at UNSCOP was workable or enforceable.

The British tried everything, but they couldn't entice either away from that one piece of land.

This conflict is a clash of two just causes.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #335 - Nov 14th, 2025 at 5:32pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14th, 2025 at 4:55pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14th, 2025 at 12:02pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 13th, 2025 at 4:55pm:
The UN peacekeepers may have been required to be unarmed, which would have been a death sentence.


There-in lies the problem...

I envisage a UNSC acting with one voice, who - after fully explaining the law to everyone -  can command the respect  of would-be law breakers, without firing a shot. 

How would they command respect when one side is offended by the existence of the other on (mis)appropriated land?

Britain was right. Neither option at UNSCOP was workable or enforceable.

The British tried everything, but they couldn't entice either away from that one piece of land.

This conflict is a clash of two just causes.

One thing Evatt was accused of was gross naivety in that the UN could ever have governed Jerusalem as an international city not controlled by either side, or that the region would just settle down over time.

But then, in 1948, militant Zionism had not yet changed forever the stereotype of Jews being passive moneylenders, jewellers and bagel-makers, and the European contempt for Jewish military sensibility... 1968 disabused the world of those assumptions, then rammed home forever by 1973.
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Frank
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #336 - Nov 14th, 2025 at 6:13pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14th, 2025 at 5:32pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 14th, 2025 at 4:55pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14th, 2025 at 12:02pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 13th, 2025 at 4:55pm:
The UN peacekeepers may have been required to be unarmed, which would have been a death sentence.


There-in lies the problem...

I envisage a UNSC acting with one voice, who - after fully explaining the law to everyone -  can command the respect  of would-be law breakers, without firing a shot. 

How would they command respect when one side is offended by the existence of the other on (mis)appropriated land?

Britain was right. Neither option at UNSCOP was workable or enforceable.

The British tried everything, but they couldn't entice either away from that one piece of land.

This conflict is a clash of two just causes.

One thing Evatt was accused of was gross naivety in that the UN could ever have governed Jerusalem as an international city not controlled by either side, or that the region would just settle down over time.

But then, in 1948, militant Zionism had not yet changed forever the stereotype of Jews being passive moneylenders, jewellers and bagel-makers, and the European contempt for Jewish military sensibility... 1968 disabused the world of those assumptions, then rammed home forever by 1973.

1967.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #337 - Nov 15th, 2025 at 6:39am
 
What made 1967 so decisive in shaping global attitudes toward Jewish -by then Israeli - military prowess was that, while 1948 could still be dismissed as “beginner’s luck,” the lightning victory of the Six-Day War proved that something far more fundamental had shifted in the Jewish strategic mindset.

In 1948, Arab leaders operated under an inherited complacency: a belief that Jewish military capacity - stripped of British, European, or American backing - would be weak, disorganised, or nonexistent. They failed to grasp the transformative psychological impact that militant Zionism had already had on the Yishuv. Jabotinsky’s 'Iron Wall' doctrine had struck deeper than they ever realised; it had internalised within Jewish fighters the principle that survival demanded both deterrence and decisive, pre-emptive strength.

By 1967, this transformation had matured. Israel’s leadership executed a precisely calculated military gamble: weaponise Arab overconfidence, exploit Nasser’s public grandstanding and appalling operational security, and launch a pre-emptive strike so overwhelming that the combined Arab air forces were effectively destroyed before they could even take off. The move was audacious, high-risk, and its payoff was gargantuan.

And this world was watching.

By 1973, when the long-awaited rematch loomed, Israel had the warning signs. King Hussein of Jordan personally travelled to Tel Aviv to warn Golda Meir that Egypt and Syria were preparing to attack. Yet Israel was urged - by Washington most of all - not to strike first. Forced to absorb the opening blow, Israel came perilously close to catastrophe; Moshe Dayan reportedly drafted a sombre statement preparing the Israeli public for the possibility of defeat. But, by the narrowest margin, the IDF managed the almost unthinkable: they stabilised the front and pushed back two major armies on two fronts.

Thus, in less than thirty years, Jabotinsky’s doctrine had reshaped the Jewish military profile from the perennial butt of barracks humour to one of the most respected - and feared - fighting forces on earth. The psychological transformation he envisaged had become a geopolitical fact.

And everyone loves an underdog winner... or do they?
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« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2025 at 6:45am by MeisterEckhart »  
 
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #338 - Nov 15th, 2025 at 8:02am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15th, 2025 at 6:39am:
And everyone loves an underdog winner... or do they?

Or do they...?

Well, that all depends...

Even the uber-religious feel conflicted and angered when the win is so unlikely, complete, absolute, that it seems as if a god commanded it.
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Frank
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #339 - Nov 15th, 2025 at 8:51am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15th, 2025 at 6:39am:
What made 1967 so decisive in shaping global attitudes toward Jewish -by then Israeli - military prowess was that, while 1948 could still be dismissed as “beginner’s luck,” the lightning victory of the Six-Day War proved that something far more fundamental had shifted in the Jewish strategic mindset.

In 1948, Arab leaders operated under an inherited complacency: a belief that Jewish military capacity - stripped of British, European, or American backing - would be weak, disorganised, or nonexistent. They failed to grasp the transformative psychological impact that militant Zionism had already had on the Yishuv. Jabotinsky’s 'Iron Wall' doctrine had struck deeper than they ever realised; it had internalised within Jewish fighters the principle that survival demanded both deterrence and decisive, pre-emptive strength.

By 1967, this transformation had matured. Israel’s leadership executed a precisely calculated military gamble: weaponise Arab overconfidence, exploit Nasser’s public grandstanding and appalling operational security, and launch a pre-emptive strike so overwhelming that the combined Arab air forces were effectively destroyed before they could even take off. The move was audacious, high-risk, and its payoff was gargantuan.

And this world was watching.

By 1973, when the long-awaited rematch loomed, Israel had the warning signs. King Hussein of Jordan personally travelled to Tel Aviv to warn Golda Meir that Egypt and Syria were preparing to attack. Yet Israel was urged - by Washington most of all - not to strike first. Forced to absorb the opening blow, Israel came perilously close to catastrophe; Moshe Dayan reportedly drafted a sombre statement preparing the Israeli public for the possibility of defeat. But, by the narrowest margin, the IDF managed the almost unthinkable: they stabilised the front and pushed back two major armies on two fronts.

Thus, in less than thirty years, Jabotinsky’s doctrine had reshaped the Jewish military profile from the perennial butt of barracks humour to one of the most respected - and feared - fighting forces on earth. The psychological transformation he envisaged had become a geopolitical fact.

And everyone loves an underdog winner... or do they?


As every schoolboy knows, when the great Enlightenment ruler of Prussia, Frederick the Great asked for a proof of God's existence, his Lutheran pastor gave him a pithy answer: "The Jews, sire "


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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #340 - Nov 15th, 2025 at 9:04am
 
Frank wrote on Nov 15th, 2025 at 8:51am:
As every schoolboy knows, when the great Enlightenment ruler of Prussia, Frederick the Great asked for a proof of God's existence, his Lutheran pastor gave him a pithy answer: "The Jews, sire "

Psychiatric Danish schoolboys know the utterances of Prussian kings, then. I doubt any normal schoolboy would know that.

Does every psychiatric Danish schoolboy know that Frederick 'the Great' :

- Divided Jews into “protected” families and all others
- Limited the number of Jewish families allowed to live legally in each town
- Restricted marriage rights to the eldest son in a protected family
- Forbade younger sons to marry or settle, forcing migration
- Imposed heavy special taxes (protection money, taxes on kosher meat, inheritance taxes, business permits)
- Barred Jews from most trades, guilds, and land ownership
- Prohibited Jewish settlement in many towns, villages, and regions

Frederick’s policy was part revenue extraction and part a deliberate effort to keep the Jewish population small and economically dependent.

Sound familiar? It should.

Hitler modelled himself on Freerisk and entertained the notion that he was Frederick's reincarnation. Hitler's secretary, Traudl Junge, recalled Hitler, at the end, sitting and staring for hours at a small portrait of Frederick.
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Frank
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #341 - Nov 15th, 2025 at 9:08am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15th, 2025 at 9:04am:
Frank wrote on Nov 15th, 2025 at 8:51am:
As every schoolboy knows, when the great Enlightenment ruler of Prussia, Frederick the Great asked for a proof of God's existence, his Lutheran pastor gave him a pithy answer: "The Jews, sire "

Psychiatric Danish schoolboys know the utterances of Prussian kings, then. I doubt any normal schoolboy would know that.

Does every psychiatric Danish schoolboy know that Frederick 'the Great' :

- Divided Jews into “protected” families and all others
- Limited the number of Jewish families allowed to live legally in each town
- Restricted marriage rights to the eldest son in a protected family
- Forbade younger sons to marry or settle, forcing migration
- Imposed heavy special taxes (protection money, taxes on kosher meat, inheritance taxes, business permits)
- Barred Jews from most trades, guilds, and land ownership
- Prohibited Jewish settlement in many towns, villages, and regions

Frederick’s policy was part revenue extraction and part a deliberate effort to keep the Jewish population small and economically dependent.

Sound familiar? It should.

Hitler modelled himself on Freerisk and entertained the notion that he was Frederick's reincarnation. Hitler's secretary, Traudl Junge, recalled Hitler, at the end, sitting and staring for hours at a small portrait of Frederick.


Cheesy
Oh, the Hitler angle came fast!!
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #342 - Nov 15th, 2025 at 9:19am
 
Frank wrote on Nov 15th, 2025 at 8:51am:
As every schoolboy knows, when the great Enlightenment ruler of Prussia, Frederick the Great asked for a proof of God's existence, his Lutheran pastor gave him a pithy answer: "The Jews, sire "



A Nordslesviger...
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #343 - Nov 15th, 2025 at 9:22am
 
Frank wrote on Nov 15th, 2025 at 9:08am:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 15th, 2025 at 9:04am:
Frank wrote on Nov 15th, 2025 at 8:51am:
As every schoolboy knows, when the great Enlightenment ruler of Prussia, Frederick the Great asked for a proof of God's existence, his Lutheran pastor gave him a pithy answer: "The Jews, sire "

Psychiatric Danish schoolboys know the utterances of Prussian kings, then. I doubt any normal schoolboy would know that.

Does every psychiatric Danish schoolboy know that Frederick 'the Great' :

- Divided Jews into “protected” families and all others
- Limited the number of Jewish families allowed to live legally in each town
- Restricted marriage rights to the eldest son in a protected family
- Forbade younger sons to marry or settle, forcing migration
- Imposed heavy special taxes (protection money, taxes on kosher meat, inheritance taxes, business permits)
- Barred Jews from most trades, guilds, and land ownership
- Prohibited Jewish settlement in many towns, villages, and regions

Frederick’s policy was part revenue extraction and part a deliberate effort to keep the Jewish population small and economically dependent.

Sound familiar? It should.

Hitler modelled himself on Freerisk and entertained the notion that he was Frederick's reincarnation. Hitler's secretary, Traudl Junge, recalled Hitler, at the end, sitting and staring for hours at a small portrait of Frederick.


Cheesy
Oh, the Hitler angle came fast!!

You left out the Jew-hating bit about 'the great Enlightenment thinker'(a bit more revealing about Frederick than just his casual curiosity about god's existence).

Why is that, I wonder.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #344 - Nov 15th, 2025 at 9:33am
 
Frederick "the great's" Prussia was the reason the Allies abolished the Prussian state and forbade any reference to Prussia in the new West and East German nation-states.

So much for the "great Enlightenment thinker"
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