Australian Politics Forum - Israel's right to exist

MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #300 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 8:02am

Just to put things into perspective, the secular nation-state of Israel (not the Haredim - Ultra-Orthodox) promotes prosperity for itself and all its Arab neighbours, and even Iran.

It has no interest in fanning the flames of Islamic sectarian conflicts - like those among Shia and Sunni states.

When it comes to the Haredim, however, they are more closely aligned in religious zeal (in Haredim and biblical terms - zealous for the Torah... the law) with Islamic fundamentalists. They mostly vehemently reject conscription into the IDF and generally do not interact with secular Jews, nor even want them within their communities, as they view them as blasphemers.

They view secularism as an evil and an insult to god, and generally want nothing to do with it... in the worst-case scenarios, they want Israel abolished as a secular nation-state, with many insisting that no Jewish state can be established except by the Messiah.

These Haredi groups stand with those Palestinians struggling for an Arab, Islamic Palestine.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 54056 Gender:	Re: Israel's right to exist Reply #301 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 9:12am Mohommedism was formulated upon conquest of Christianity which was formulated upon conquest of Judaism which is now upon the conquest of Mohommedism.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #302 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 9:36am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 8:02am:

Just to put things into perspective, the secular nation-state of Israel (not the Haredim - Ultra-Orthodox) promotes prosperity for itself and all its Arab neighbours, and even Iran.

It has no interest in fanning the flames of Islamic sectarian conflicts - like those among Shia and Sunni states.

When it comes to the Haredim, however, they are more closely aligned in religious zeal (in Haredim and biblical terms - zealous for the Torah... the law) with Islamic fundamentalists. They mostly vehemently reject conscription into the IDF and generally do not interact with secular Jews, nor even want them within their communities, as they view them as blasphemers.

They view secularism as an evil and an insult to god, and generally want nothing to do with it... in the worst-case scenarios, they want Israel abolished as a secular nation-state, with many insisting that no Jewish state can be established except by the Messiah.

These Haredi groups stand with those Palestinians struggling for an Arab, Islamic Palestine.

The primary demographic problem in Israel is that, while the Haredi currently make up about 15% of Israel's population, they typically have families of up to 8 or more children, so their demographic prospects for reaching more than 50% are high.

With their uncompromising disdain for secularism, the Haredi pose a significant existential threat to Israel's secularity.

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Frank

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #303 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 9:48am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 8:02am:

Just to put things into perspective, the secular nation-state of Israel (not the Haredim - Ultra-Orthodox) promotes prosperity for itself and all its Arab neighbours, and even Iran.

It has no interest in fanning the flames of Islamic sectarian conflicts - like those among Shia and Sunni states.

When it comes to the Haredim, however, they are more closely aligned in religious zeal (in Haredim and biblical terms - zealous for the Torah... the law) with Islamic fundamentalists. They mostly vehemently reject conscription into the IDF and generally do not interact with secular Jews, nor even want them within their communities, as they view them as blasphemers.

They view secularism as an evil and an insult to god, and generally want nothing to do with it... in the worst-case scenarios, they want Israel abolished as a secular nation-state, with many insisting that no Jewish state can be established except by the Messiah.

These Haredi groups stand with those Palestinians struggling for an Arab, Islamic Palestine.

So??

The Greens are roughly the same proportion of the Australian population and they too stand with Hamas, Hezb'allah.
Since when is siding with terrorists a good argument or a good context?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #304 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 9:58am

Frank wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 9:48am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 8:02am:

Just to put things into perspective, the secular nation-state of Israel (not the Haredim - Ultra-Orthodox) promotes prosperity for itself and all its Arab neighbours, and even Iran.

It has no interest in fanning the flames of Islamic sectarian conflicts - like those among Shia and Sunni states.

When it comes to the Haredim, however, they are more closely aligned in religious zeal (in Haredim and biblical terms - zealous for the Torah... the law) with Islamic fundamentalists. They mostly vehemently reject conscription into the IDF and generally do not interact with secular Jews, nor even want them within their communities, as they view them as blasphemers.

They view secularism as an evil and an insult to god, and generally want nothing to do with it... in the worst-case scenarios, they want Israel abolished as a secular nation-state, with many insisting that no Jewish state can be established except by the Messiah.

These Haredi groups stand with those Palestinians struggling for an Arab, Islamic Palestine.

So??

The Greens are roughly the same proportion of the Australian population and they too stand with Hamas, Hezb'allah.
Since when is siding with terrorists a good argument or a good context?

The Haredi should serve as a wake-up call to those who think the Israel-Palestine conflict is clear-cut and obvious.

The majority of the Haredi would likely happily engage with Islamic fundamentalists to accommodate each other in a land ruled by Arabs, along the lines of what UNSCOP debated as its second option.

Both sides firmly believe that it is god's will (in the forms of Yahweh or Allah) that determines the fate of the region... that it is an insult to god to impose a secular nation-state over the region.

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« Last Edit: Nov 12^th, 2025 at 10:06am by MeisterEckhart »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #305 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 10:33am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 9:58am:

The Haredi should serve as a wake-up call to those who think the Israel-Palestine conflict is clear-cut and obvious.

And that opinions on the matter, as demanded by one neurotically obsessed poster here, particularly those woefully devoid of facts, are literally like arseholes.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #306 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 1:06pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 11^th, 2025 at 1:15pm:

Britain did not believe either solution was workable and advised the UN that it wanted out, stating it would not enforce the partition, as it deemed it unenforceable.

Hmm, so Britain could not envisage combining forces with the other four members of UNSC, to enforce the partition?

Note: none of the other members would have used their veto against enforcing the partition; perhaps Britain hadn't yet adjusted to the fact is was no longer the woirld's superpower and would need to cooperate with other powers (in this case the UNSC powers).

Enforcement would have been relatively easy - eg, would not have involved dislodging illegal Jewish settlers in the WB, as is the case now.....

Quote:

Britain, which had been deeply involved with leaders from both sides of the conflict, was convinced that both had valid arguments for land claims, but neither would compromise with the other - the Arabs rejected any foreign ownership of Arab land; the Zionists claimed the ancient kingdoms/borders of Judaea, Samaria and Israel as theirs by cultural inheritance, with Ben Gurion's moderates agreeing to anything they could get as a 'Stage One'.

Yes - the Brits had no concept of exercising combined UNSC power...

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #307 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 2:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 1:06pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 11^th, 2025 at 1:15pm:

Britain did not believe either solution was workable and advised the UN that it wanted out, stating it would not enforce the partition, as it deemed it unenforceable.

Hmm, so Britain could not envisage combining forces with the other four members of UNSC, to enforce the partition?

Note: none of the other members would have used their veto against enforcing the partition; perhaps Britain hadn't yet adjusted to the fact is was no longer the woirld's superpower and would need to cooperate with other powers (in this case the UNSC powers).

Enforcement would have been relatively easy - eg, would not have involved dislodging illegal Jewish settlers in the WB, as is the case now.....

Quote:

Britain, which had been deeply involved with leaders from both sides of the conflict, was convinced that both had valid arguments for land claims, but neither would compromise with the other - the Arabs rejected any foreign ownership of Arab land; the Zionists claimed the ancient kingdoms/borders of Judaea, Samaria and Israel as theirs by cultural inheritance, with Ben Gurion's moderates agreeing to anything they could get as a 'Stage One'.

Yes - the Brits had no concept of exercising combined UNSC power...

It's more complicated than that. Britain had secretly promised the Arabs that partition was off the table and that the region would remain in Arab control.

It had also made overtures to the Zionists that partition was on the cards.

When the Arabs found out about assurances made to the Zionists, they were naturally outraged... Britain had lied to their leaders and heads of state.

The militant Zionists were more brutal in sending Britain a message against caving to Arab demands, and began a terror, torture and murder campaign against the mandate, even attempting to assassinate the British PM. Anthony Eden and his cabinet members via letter bombs that, by sheer luck, had been intercepted in London... as a statement to the world that lethal, brutal force would be the militant Zionist MO across the world used against anyone or nation who obstructed the establishment of the Israeli state,

By the time of the UNGA vote on Resolution 181, which had been determined by UNSCOP would be a vote on Partition, Britain was done as a moral force and done with the publicly displayed tortured corpses of its soldiers strung up on trees in Palestine.

To wash its hands of he affair, and to ensure it could not use its veto, Britain abstained from the vote.

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Frank

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #308 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 3:48pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 9:58am:

Frank wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 9:48am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 8:02am:

Just to put things into perspective, the secular nation-state of Israel (not the Haredim - Ultra-Orthodox) promotes prosperity for itself and all its Arab neighbours, and even Iran.

It has no interest in fanning the flames of Islamic sectarian conflicts - like those among Shia and Sunni states.

When it comes to the Haredim, however, they are more closely aligned in religious zeal (in Haredim and biblical terms - zealous for the Torah... the law) with Islamic fundamentalists. They mostly vehemently reject conscription into the IDF and generally do not interact with secular Jews, nor even want them within their communities, as they view them as blasphemers.

They view secularism as an evil and an insult to god, and generally want nothing to do with it... in the worst-case scenarios, they want Israel abolished as a secular nation-state, with many insisting that no Jewish state can be established except by the Messiah.

These Haredi groups stand with those Palestinians struggling for an Arab, Islamic Palestine.

So??

The Greens are roughly the same proportion of the Australian population and they too stand with Hamas, Hezb'allah.
Since when is siding with terrorists a good argument or a good context?

The Haredi should serve as a wake-up call to those who think the Israel-Palestine conflict is clear-cut and obvious.

The majority of the Haredi would likely happily engage with Islamic fundamentalists to accommodate each other in a land ruled by Arabs, along the lines of what UNSCOP debated as its second option.

Both sides firmly believe that it is god's will (in the forms of Yahweh or Allah) that determines the fate of the region... that it is an insult to god to impose a secular nation-state over the region.

So now you understand why Israel is a secular state.

Unlike most of its Muslim enemies.

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Bobby.

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #309 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 3:55pm

A secret map President Truman found in FDR's desk that revealed Roosevelt knew
about Nazi concentration camps since 1942 but refused to bomb them.
Learn the disturbing truth about the railway lines to Auschwitz
that could have been destroyed, the tens of thousands of lives that might have been saved,
and the sick political calculations behind Roosevelt's decision.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #310 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 4:02pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 1:06pm:

Note: none of the other members would have used their veto against enforcing the partition; perhaps Britain hadn't yet adjusted to the fact is was no longer the woirld's superpower and would need to cooperate with other powers (in this case the UNSC powers).

A veto would have only cancelled the outcome, not reversed it.

Doc Evatt had ensured that the UNSCOP Partition decision won out over the other option. He cajoled Truman to support partition even against Truman's own administration, which vehemently opposed it. Truman, for his part, blackmailed every nation he could at the UN, particularly the Philippines, African states, and South American states, with economic and aid consequences if they did not vote for partition, to help ensure a 2/3 majority for partition. Stalin was for partition (so that was the Soviet bloc sorted), as was France.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #311 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 4:12pm

Frank wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 3:48pm:

So now you understand why Israel is a secular state.

'Now I understand'!!

You idiot... Read back on your drivel.

Israel is a secular state because that was their best bet for recognition by UN members.

However, most European Jews were secular anyway in 1947. By contrast, the Haredi were a small, eccentric minority back then, hence why Israel's founders let them off the hook in terms of participation in secular government, including conscription.... Things are changing now, but... hence the current Haredi protests.

But Israel was established as a Jewish state, and that was confirmed in the 2018 'Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People' Act, AKA the Nation-State Act.

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Frank

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #312 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 4:26pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 4:12pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 3:48pm:

So now you understand why Israel is a secular state.

'Now I understand'!!

You idiot... Read back on your drivel.

Israel is a secular state because that was their best bet for recognition by UN members.

However, most European Jews were secular anyway in 1947. By contrast, the Haredi were a small, eccentric minority back then, hence why Israel's founders let them off the hook in terms of participation in secular government, including conscription.... Things are changing now, but... hence the current Haredi protests.

But Israel was established as a Jewish state, and that was confirmed in the 2018 'Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People' Act, AKA the Nation-State Act.

Is an atheist Jew still a Jew?
Yes.

Is an atheist Muslim still a Muslim?
No

Can an atheist be shmultaneoudly a Christin?
No (unless he's an Anglican).

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #313 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 4:37pm

Frank wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 4:26pm:

Is an atheist Jew still a Jew?
Yes.

Is an atheist Muslim still a Muslim?
No

Can an atheist be shmultaneoudly a Christin?
No (unless he's an Anglican).

Oh, the irony! A former alleged educator immune to his own education.

Is an atheist Jew still a Jew? It depends on who you ask. It was, and still is, non-Jews who usually apply the label to those born of Jewish parents or descended from Jews, regardless of what the individual says of themselves. The Haredi would disagree in the way Muslim fundamentalists would with their apostates.

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Bobby.

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #314 - Nov 12^th, 2025 at 4:42pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 4:37pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 12^th, 2025 at 4:26pm:

Is an atheist Jew still a Jew?
Yes.

Is an atheist Muslim still a Muslim?
No

Can an atheist be shmultaneoudly a Christin?
No (unless he's an Anglican).

Oh, the irony! A former alleged educator immune to his own education.

Is an atheist Jew still a Jew? It depends on who you ask. It was, and still is, non-Jews who usually apply the label to those born of Jewish parents or descended from Jews, regardless of what the individual says of themselves. The Haredi would disagree in the way Muslim fundamentalists would with their apostates.

For the Nazis even if only your great grandmother was Jewish
that was enough to get a one way ticket to Auschwitz.

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